VI C'L'O ltlA..
SESSION
~882.
r"RO\I ·rnll:
THE SANDH l1HRT
LA~D Yl£STI~(i
'Plllh'l'ltiW \\'!TU
IU&
MELBOURXB:
1882.
B.l LL,
EX1l'RAGN:I> PROM
1'1H~
VO'l'ES AND PIWCEEDINGS.
\VRDNESDAY, lO·rn MAY. 1882.
Ur. Quiek presented a Petition from tho 1\fayor, Councillors, nnd Oitizens of the
City of Sandhnr;:t, uwlcr the Soal of the sni.! Corporation, prnyiu~ for lcs,·e to bring in
n Bill tu VBI!t certniu Jantl11 iu the i\lnvor, Councillors, n111l l:itizons 11f the Citv of
~andhuc·l!t .
•
•
Orch·r'l'd to lio on tbe Tnblo.
PETITIOY.-
TU URSllAY, 25'1'11
~lAY,
1882.
S lNnuvusT 1••\'Nil V.Es·u~o lhu.-~lr. Lougmoro moved, pursuant to nnticu given by
Dr. Quick, 'l'hnt he ham le:n·c to bring in a Bill to \"est certain ):Uids in tlw Mnyor,
GouncillorR, nnd Citi7.etiB nf the City of Sandhurst.
Question-put, nntl rW!nh·cd in thtl ntlirmativo.
Orcll'rt!cl-'l'hat Mr. l1ollgruort> n.nd 1\( r. Gnrdiner clo prepnrc nnd bring in the Bill.
..\lr. Longmorc thc.n IH·ought np n Bill intitul~l'' .1l. Bill to rt.tl crrtain land1 in the Na.vur,
Counnllorl, 11nci Q,fl:cn• of th,, Cif!! qf Santfl1ur•l," nncl rucH'cd, 'I'hnt it; he uo'" read n lit·at
time.
l~uestion-pnt un•l re~nln:cl iu the atlirumtho.- Bill rCil•l n first time.
"' I~I>NESl>AY.
:H::;T MAY,
1882.
.l•.uw \-£STlNO Bu.L.-Dr. Quidr mu,·e.-1, pur:mRut to notice, 'rbRt thie Bill be
ru,,,. read o second timu.
8.A.NDRUnS1'
J>ttlmi C
Clll!UCcl.
'l'hu ,Jr,bntn nnt hcing condude.t hy twcnty-fho minute" pnst nine o'clocl<,
until W t•clncsdny, ilia .T unt• nett.
\VEI>NE:-o;D.\.Y,
SANDIIUUSl' l.ANU
~ls1'
~;tood a~Uom·ued
.JUXg, 1"'52.
YES I'INO nu.J.. -Thc Ortlcr uf Lite Day for tlao resumption of tho dl•hate
on tiHI 9.lWillillll, 'rhnt n Btll to \"C!Ht r•••·tuin ltuul~ in the Mnynr·, l'ouncillors, llJHI Citizens
t•f tho liity .. £ Snuolhllt'ltl ht> mn\' n•:1•l n socunJ time-hn\'ing lwt".u read,
Dclonto resumed.
Mr. Cnrtcr mon!d, IUI nn nmcndtncnt, 'r·hnt tho "11rd ":now" l1e omitted, and tlto word a
"thls •lny si,; mouth" •• he nddc.J nfter the wonl ''time.''
Uchnie t•outiuucll.
Amouchncut. hy lcnY~·. wii lulrM\'Il
<lucstion-Thnc. this Bill b~ now r,.n<llt 15(·•·on•l ti11111-pul uutl resoln•d iu the nfiirtn.:\tin:.
SJ.l(J>Ur:asT L .u w VESTINO Bn.L.-Dr. Quick wo,·cd, pursunnt to lwti•:t•, 11tat n Bill intituled
"..d Bill to -ct'lt en-lain landr in /he Jlayor, Cou11cillor•, 011J Citizcnr of' till! Citv of
s,m/lllmtf," bt• rofcrc·ccl to a s~·lct•t Commiltl'e, t•cm:<iating of ~lr. ~\lirams, )fr. Aauh•a:son,
:Mr. Wri:tou, 1\fr. \\'ulk~:r. antl .Mr. L:m~don, thr~.c lu form n IJIIOrum; nnd tlu1~ the
promotcl'll hB\'C lca\'O from da.y t•• tiny to prmt tho onolcnco tBkcn bcforo Hueh Commtitec.
Que~tion-put nn•l f('.!!olvcd in the nllinnative.
lV
flrtet·miue the possession and o . top the continuon misappropriation of
the pmperty to improper purpo es."
. In July, 1879, the Honoraole Robet·t Ola:rk, a Member of' your
Ho'llo1·ahlo llousc, gave notice of a Bill for the nme put·pose as the
pre ent, lmt clid not J1roceeu witb it. In SeptembPr la, t year also a Rimilnr
Hill to that before your Committee was iutrodLtcecl to your Honorahle
llous<>. a.q a pttl>lic Bill, hy Dr. Quick and the Honorable Mt·. Bun·owes,
.l\1emhcrs of your IIonoruble IIou , hnt was nut procerclecl with.
n. The preamble to the Bill before your Committee tntes that
" douht. have arisen respecti ngo the power of the CollOcil to holtl ancl lease
the . aid lands. mul it is de irable to remove ihos~ doubts," by ve tin~ the
iee- implc> of the lnnd in thl~ Council hy Act of Parliament. In the opinion
of yom 'ommittc•e this statomeut ha not been }ll'OVClL rl'he land belongs
to the 0l'Own, and there is no doubt respecting the po ition of the Connoil,
which lms no power to hold ot· to lease the land in tluestion. 'rile :c Crown
may," a the rlecision of the Supreme Oourt above f[UOted points ont., " a.t
any time tletcnuiuc the posses ·ion." Umler these circum.. trrucc your
Oornmjttee would r' pectfully suggc't to your llonora.ble IIouse that the
que tion in dispute, and which the Bill1·et'erred to us is intended to decide,
is a quesLion fm· tllo Executive to cletcrmine, as repre outing tlw Crowu,
whose property the land i · re pecting which the rptestion has arisen.
10. 'flHLL as no tlouht exi t a to the owucr hip of the land in
qucst.ion. there eau hf> no doubt to remove; but, in the opinion of yom
Committee, difl s11ch doubt eri"'t, to remove them in th • way su.gge. tetl
by thi"' Bill would be to "'ive legi lntive sanction to the mi appro1>riation
of puhlic property.
11. Furthr'r, in thr~ opinion of your Oommittec, the tatemcnts of the
prettmlJle " that the City of Sandlt•n·st has from time to timo expeuued
mollc'y from its c·.orpornte funds in draining ancl improving the waste lands,"
and '' i h ·aid public bal hs nre till maintainctl b~· the said corporation at
great •xpou ·e," httYC not heen provrd.
12. Your Committee ha.ve therefore th ltonor to report to your
llonoralllt~ Uousc tbat tile preamble to the " Bill to vest certain land in
the }layur, Cnum:illors, and Citizens of the City of . u.ucllnm;t," has not
h<'C'n proved to their .'nti '!'action.
L
Committee-room,
2ncl .A.ugn t, 1 82.
vi
"\fr. <\.wlcr ·un here entered the room. and having take n hitt 'le'lt, slgnerl the declaratio n
r equired by the Second Sta.nding O rder L"elating to Prival;e Bills.
M:r. MclnLyre t\Jl(ILeu to Lhe Oomanit.Lee tu have tile evidence ~a ken un o \th, bnt the
Committee decided they had n ot power to d,, 110.
Examination o£ witness continued.
Mr. Mclutyre complained t hat the evidence bei ng brought betore lhe Committee was
merely secoudJLry evidence, a.ud he asked lihat the origin'll books of the Sandh urst Council
should be prod uccd.
Mr. H olm. promised to com ply with the req uest;
Mr. llelm handed in the or igiru1.l a.~reement entered into on :lrd .\ft~y. L~7:l. hetween
the Sandhur·st City Council Mld Ja.mes Moore a.ud Jame~ Boytl, M. D. (the present petitioner
a.gn.in~<t t.he Bill;.
Emmina.tion of witness continued.
Witness crosa·exnmined by Mr. Mclntyre.
Witness handed in a ata.Lement of receipts and expenditure on the baths corner
reservij.
Oroas-e:mminntion of witness contin ued.
W ituest~ further exa.minod
Mr. H elm.
Further examined by t he Committee.
George R. B. ·tea.ne, City url'eyor of Sandhurst, called in and o.tamineJ. by M.r. Elelm.
Witm!sfl handed in a plsm ol' tile ground.
0roH~<-examlnetl hy Mr. M clntyre.
Examined by the Committee.
Further ex.umiued by Mr. Helm.
Further crose-exruni.ned by Mr. Mclntyre.
The Clu:Urman informed t he Coun~:~el fo1· the promoters of t he Bill t!Ja.i the CommiLtee
wou,ltl rer~uire further ovid6llce ex.plnining why Lhe lAud had beou lea.sod originally, aud also
full ac~:ount~:~ ut' u.ll moneys received and expended in oonno..:tion with this h~ud , includ.in~ a.
statement o.f moneyH received from t he larlios' bu.th:!.lhe gentlemen's bath~t, o.nl the leased lauds.
by
Committee adjourned until Th ursday next at eleven o'clock.
'l'HUR S U.A Y, 13·rn J ULY, 1882.
Membe1·11 2n·esent :
.Mtt.
\r nr:xu:11, iu t.h.e Chait;
Mr. La.ngdon.
Mr. Andersou.
e~illetl in.
MI·. \V. 0. D . Denovan nga.in called ht, o.ud. furLhel' examiMtllJy Mr. IIelm.
Witness J.umJ.ml in o. book containing a cupy or an n.d1·ertisemcnt issued by Lhe
Saurlh11r~L Council, r1uling fo r ieuder~> for lenaing the bo.Lba COi' UCr .
Witue~s p1·oJuced the original minute-book of the C>lUUCJI u£ Sn.nllhur1:1t, and read the
minute u.pprrJI iu~ of Mr. J:\nte!J Muor·e'a oil'er 1-o len.se ti.U11 land (2nd .r uly, L. 71) .
Witness lranderl in original teuder of Mr. Jamcs Moore.
Witness Cl'OS~<-o.tatnlocd by ~lr. Mclntyrc.
'l'be Counsel a.ml pMties were
\ Vitut•ss llalllll••l iu pL'\u,
~L:.
\Vullcl•r hl'm entered t he1·oom and took hia a~t~L.
•
\"11
Witnee enminerl by tbc Committee.
Witness huuded in letter trou1 Landd Uop1U'IIU!'n~ (dntool :!J1th AlliSUl;t, 1 '71). Nllttiug
tlmt in:;lru~·tious hue] U\:CTI givcu !I) pt·epare " I'UWll ~l'lll\t nr ln.nrl re~erred fi,q 11 sit<• for public
baths nt Srutdhurst.
1\ir. Mirnms bere !'tltCNltl the t•oom aml took hill &t•:t r.
Ellwnrd Gn.r~t>J, l"m·m rly of .::u11llmrst but now r.•siding :u Kcr!Ulg, called in, nnd
examined by H lm.
I r. Holm hnnd •rl in 1 letter frum A. CMtHlutl' t.•n•ll'rin!.! to lcn>~e pnrt ot tho bnth '
l't!Sei'\"0.
i)fr. \\' rixon i.nl'ornwd ·'Jr. fluhu LlmL th Commit t c \rnui.J like to lnwc u.Jclitionrtl
information explnining wl1y tho Sn.nuhut·st Council ha.J leas 1 t'or u ditferaut purpose land
reeerv d for public lmtbt!, &c.
)!r. Helm wns heard in o ·pl.An111Liott.
Witness cro8s-t•xnmi11ed by Mt'. )IclnLyre.
r!', 1\lclntyrl' lmruloJ in 11 plan.
l\laurico Mnra.n, 01' 'andhnr~t. r.:tl.letl in. :tnd eXtlmine!l by ~It·. llultn.
Witness croli8-~J:!Imined by :'ll.r. )lclut:v-ro.
Wlrutl~s nminllll by t Ltc l .ummith·e.
'l'he ()hnirnmn rea•L :tu extn11•ii frntn n lett<>r :tdtlressod tu the llunurabh thri
CommisaJOner or L.uul l·y "lho :-i:muhur. L Uuuncil on lll' lat lt Apr•il, l I'.
Thomn.-1 W. le 'ullr)I'U, ){ecciver of RU\' nue to th Sun.lhur. t mmeil Palled iu, and
exnmine:l by Mr. llelrn.
Witues:o~ <'rml~HJKnmiued by :Ut·, .l\Iclutyrc.
'crlain aecuur11s Wti'O hathlul in, tuu1 wrtne~"' l~:U\utim•d upon them.
WHuess c.\atuiucd b.\· the Committee.
A Jetwr from U. 'leveu , Echucn, olT~o~ciug to give Gl'idcnce. lnirl befuro lh
'onuniLtul' adjourn
'uunniLLeo.
u until Tuo~clny ne:tl, at: ol(lven u't·lo('k.
'JlUE 'DAY, 1
TU
JULY. 1
....
•)
:J!f:mlll'r$ pr11senl :
\lu. \\"nrxo:--. in 1hu l ha11· ;
:.Ut·. r\ mle1 uu,
~It-.
.\lil'llllill,
'rho l omntitl!.~•· deliiJt•rntcd.
Mr·. J,:~u gdon hero l'lllurcil tit· wom nnd took his 'at,
Commit t '-' fut•t ltc1• t!cliberateJ.
Drlln·rd-Tlll\t the ,\g~ut fhr the Promottlr::l uuJ. tho "~gcuL tor thu Oppouoms of' th •
.Uill be informed that tlw Unuuuit t l'P \Toulu meet ngaiu uu 1'r11 J<<lnJ next, the :uillt in~ taut, fur
t.he purpol!e of iakiug e\·i,lclii'O iu ~upport of and agnin>~t the prcamhlo or the Hill. but 11101'0
espedally on the J(llhm ing puiut" : 1. ..\ 11 cxpemlit 11 r • from l'urp<ll':ltc fun de~ on the lcaouhold lu.nds.
2..\.11 CS.(ll'll<liluro from Corporn.lc funds on the fr·eolwlJ lands.
3, 'l'he pre11cnt t·o-t of muilltaiuing the bat h..
Committee nujourn!!d until Tuei!dny next at dl•ven o'clock.
viii
'l1UESDAY, 2o•l'n JULY, 18t12.
Members prcllent:
;\Jr. ,\Jimms,
l\fn. WnrroN, in the Chair;
.\lr·. Walker·.
'l'lre Counsel Md pn.rtiea were called in.
'l'homns W. McCulloch :H~run l•alled in and examine I by Mt". llelm.
'Vitne"s handed iu ccrtniu a~counts n.ud was examined thereon.
i\k Lnngun11 l1ere •utered the room and took his sent.
E:mmiuntion of wit.uc~<l! contit1ued
Cross-examined by Ml'. Mclutyl'll.
\\"itne. s handed in further accounts nJHl was eimmiuerl ther•••m hy :\fr·. ~fclntyr·o.
)11'. Allder~;on here · ·nturucl tho room and toolr l1is :;eat.
C'ross-e"JliJJ1i nation of w tnoss conti11 uod.
\\T itne~ eutniued ll) the Committee.
Witness fu•·ther c~xuwined by Mr. Helm.
(:iporge R B. Ste:me ttgllin cnJlecl in and e nminccl by Mr. Helm.
\\Titue~l:l hruulecl in l1·iwi111{ l!howiug the drninng-e round the ladies' bath.
Jhnmination
but h~<.
11f wiiiiNiti c~nntiuucd.
\V' it uoss hall(l£>d in I under accepted
Exrunimdion of
witnl'~<tl
ut
December, 1 79, fo1· repairs to ln.dies' swimwiug
continued.
Witness cro~;s-exawiuctl lJJ :Ur. Mcl.ntyre.
CorJ•estwndl·llce re:;pt•ctiug u cmnplnint made on Ulh Sent ember, L 77. b) Dr. Boyd,
that the walet· from 1he ladies' haths wu.s flooding the premises of one of Ius tenants
(M1·. McClello.w1) l11id bl'fur·~ the Committee
Examination of witncsR continued.
had
Mt·. llclw adJres~eu the Committee iu support
pl'on•cl.
or the pronmulo, nnJ Nubm1tted that it
l~een
:\fr·. Mclntyr •
lLdtlre:lllecl the Commitl.ee agiLinat thti prenrnble, :~uJ. ubmitted thn.t it
lutd not beC11 proved.
Committee ndjoul'lleu until lo-mo1·row n.t l,weh·e o'duck.
'YEDNE!'!DA..Y, 261'1I JULY, 18 2.
.1/rmbcrs
::uu.
1\ fl'. iwl£> rsuu,
Mr. )IirlllU:!,
p1'1'8t'll/ :
\Vm:xo.N, ]n the Chrtir;
I
:;\Ir. Walket·.
The Committee cleliberated.
Mr. Lnngdon entered the room tmd look his seat.
·rho Cnmmit te, f111·1 het· clelihotaletl.
Committ •e o.tljourncd until Tuesuny uext nl clu1·en o'clock.
ix
\VEDNESD.AY, 2Nn AUGUST, 1S82.
:Un. Wnr:.toN, iu the Chnir;
Mr.
'J'ho Couuuiltcl'
Ulllt
~lirnm!l.
this dll.y Ly olirection of the Ohnil·mn11.
The Chnirtunn brought up n Uraft Report;, which
wM
read. nnd is as follows:-
I>lt.\.PT HEPORT.
THE
S!-.lr.t:<r.r CoM'MI'f-TI!:E or 1ha Lcgilllntivo ,.\ssomhly, If) wltidt WIIS rdtwrcd IIlO Uill
intitulcd "A /Jill to t•ut certain lrmds h1 t/11• Ma!fOI', Oou11c11llrw:r, tun/ Citi:ens 1!( ths
Oity of Samllmrst.'' hun: t.ltu Lonur· lo I'll port lu your llouwrahlu ll1111Se ns fullows: -
1. \~our Committee henrd e'\"idQncc in sup\10rt: of 1hc preamble of tlao Bill, hy which il
nppelll·cd tlant tho l:md which .is deserjbed in t 10 sd.mlule to t Im llill \\'UM, !ly :m Or-der
in Council of t!.o ;Lth ,I uly, l'i0, tornporMily •·csarretl f1·om ::;!Llo nR n •· l!it.o fut· puhlic lmths
lln•l public \!On\'llliH!llt'l! '' nt Snnolhurst. On ll•c ::?~ll1 J uuc, 1:'::.71, unt:ico of rho iutcutiun to
permnncntly t·cser\ o thi~; lnud lor the snm~ public 11urpo!;(:~ WM gi\"t'D 111 thl Oorrmmont
(hacttt.., lm I thiK i ntcntion wns never carried .. ut. l'ho irutol now ro:l\:\lllll Cro\\ 11 lnml. h ill
a eot'lJUI' ullotmont, h:wiug li•outugo:~ tv t,wo priJII'ipaletl'cots.
~. In .\lny, 1871.. lcs11 tlum a yenr nftcr the fit·s~ tompat·lll'y rcservution, tho Comu'il o£
the then Borough of S:m•IImrst procc(•dctl t.l t;1 kc ;<h!pB to lio'a:;o t !tree-fourths of the lnnd,
c11mprishtg bof b fr·ontngilB, ou Luil•liu!; lclllit', leM·ing t.ho t't.lln:~iniug JHII'tion of Il10 1nwl1 wbh:h
is situut oJ nt 1he luwk, for lmt 11 purpo)HOS,
8. 'Plw lnucl was arrordiugly so leased nt n yenrly rcnt.nl.aull mlunblc butldingl!erccted.
upon it by tl•u k~ct•, whit·h. under tho ngrecmcnt between thL• partios, hCi.'.OUIO tho JII'Opcrty
of tho Comu·il upon tho oxpinniou of tht! lcullo.
4. Ll.u the bnrk portion lofl. for Lath purposes a bnlhing plnco for worne>u only wa,
mndc by lht• \'t•undl, nntl tho cost Jofrnycd out of thcir corporate fuuds. Hut it SCI'IllS not
tn han: Lt·•·H IUUt:h usou till the lnsl two or tltrco yeare, nnd afior being conBlrueted it. wn.s,
when the olol ;\liulug .lht·Lnngo WILII lnu·ul, l'lost!<l fot· somo niuo months, lJOnrrlL'tl over, and
ut!ctlns n .\liui11g lh:clmngl!.
fi, 'l'ho &rulhUJ';{t. l'ouJII:il hnv~ rccci,·c•l f1·om tho J't:nts :mJ r11tcs of the lmildm~s upon
this land 1001'0 than tlu•y l1:t\"u oxpcndtltl upo11 t.ho bJ\tl.u; nu I he lnuol. J\ c·luug•J !or nthuiasilJU
to t ho !oaths iK tn:ult~o
11, l'he l~iug uf th(! lnnd Ill quCl!t-ion \\'l\8 \::U·ric,\ Olll oy I he f'ullllt'll wtt!. 11 full
knowledgo of its i!lebrnlity, nud ngniust. U1c strong pmlt!llt of ,.,,t·t niu et•!tllcillora tL!IIl t·:t~t?·
paynrs. 'l'ho a:utcl~on of lbe thuu .,ltruator (If L:nult< wa~ twuglat hut nut gn'o•u.
7. lu October, 1~71, procoorlin~pt W{'ro tnkCJt before t.ltc ~IIJli'Ctllo Court, in its Er1uity
juril!diction, to r(.'l!trnin the Council lrorn ]e:uoiug. 'rho Court :rcfuaod to mtorferc, snyin!!
Lhut it "us for tho Crown to jll'utoct itll own propnrty. In its judgment it si niL'S • -•· Tl1a
Urow u may Ill any timo olotcruum: llho I)Oii~essiou and so stop the continuous misapJli'Oprintion
of tho pr·opcrt_r to improper ptU'pOBCI!."
8 lu .July, ]S7!1. tltll llonornhlc HobcrL Clnrk, a ?lfcmhcr of your Hrmornblc House,
uoticP of a Hdl for thu smuo purpn~n n~ tlw pt'Ctll'lll, ltut tli.t not Jll'clCCl'd with it. In
l:lt·ptcmut•t' lnlit ,Y<!ila' ;tl&u tL liitnilar Bill to tl.at. lmlorc yom· Conunitleo \\ill! iulN•lucc!l to your
Ilonornhlo Iloulll', nFIL public Bill, by IJr. ltutdt nuu tho Himot•nblc ) Jr. Bu t't'Owc~. but wns
not proceeded w·it h.
SfolVti
X
9. The preamble to the 13ill before yo111· Committee stales that "cloubt;; have nl'isen
Tespcc~tinjct the power of the ()ouudl to holJ and lease tho saiu lnnd , and it is dasira.blu to
remOYO t lOtie doubt~<," by vestinv; the fee simple uf' lhu laud iu the 'ouncil uy Act of
Pnrliutnelll. I11 Ute opinit1lt of yotu· Committel'. L"':u·liamonl could not nilirm this po~~tion
wlthunt holding oul n lcgislnti"c snnclion to nil pttl>l ~".itnilnr· misapproprialione, nn.J also t11 u.ll
1mch fntut·e cases as UmL [IUulic
i:lt~ul:tiou
might inJucc.
10. Flll'lher, )'flUI' ('ommitt('e dcsit•e Lo talo their <~piuiou that t.lu• que:<timt of the
terms nn1l coiUlitious upon whic•h thislnnd should now bo tleult with i~ nne f't<~entiallyfnr the
E:wcutin.\ : ;; t•c·prest:nting till' CJ'nwn. wltosc pt•opcrty i: is, awl doe~< nut [ll'<lperly eome
within tho scope of legislntin: fuuctions.
11. Yrlllt' C:otmniLtcc hnve uow the bonor t.o report. to your Jlouot·ahle llousc tlmt. the
prcnJUblc to I he ·• Bill tu \'(:St c •t·tnin laud.:! in I he .:\[ay~~r, ouncil!ot·~, :~.ntl Cititcu:; of the
City of l:>auclhur;,;t ·• hall not lll'eu pnwcu to their sati~;f'o.cticm.
Gnt:trui ll cc-room,
2nd .-\ UJ!Ul:ll. Lt-i, '1.
Pnt':L!;{I':l.[lh l l'{'flcl, and agreed to.
l:'nragmph :! t•c:ud, anti ngreell to.
Ptu·ngraph 3 ren,I, aucl:tme111lccl.
Paragraph 3 a.s :um•uucu, again nm.d n.ml agreed to.
Pa•·tcgt-nplt 4 n•ntl. allCl !Unl:uuccl.
Pnmgraplt 1 11~< nmc•ntltHI, :t~niu read and agreed to.
Par:u;raph 5 rracl. aurl amouJecl.
Paragraph 5 us amended, n~a.in reatl nud ngreotl lo.
Pnrngrnph 6 renJ, and tunendcd.
Paragraph 6 n... amended, again read nnd ngrced to.
Paragraph 7 t•end, antl nmcnded.
Psn·agrapl1 7
:tR
amended, again read and ngt·ced to.
Pnragt·o ph 8 rNLcl, :mtl nmended.
Pnrn.gro.ph 8 as 1\llll!UtluJ, ngniu reau a.nd agreed Lo.
Pnragt'llph U rea.tl.
llr
~firnm
wo\'ed thn.t.
t.hi~
pat•ttgrnph be omitted, aut! that the following be
inst>rted in lieu thereof:9. •· The pn•runblo Lo the 'Bill beloTe your Committee tn.tcs th11t 'doubts have arisen
respecting 1 he powet• of tho Counrll LO holJ nnd lC!ISC I he !!:lid laudl!, onu it is desirable to
removB those d.ouJ.1ta,' by \•cstin;; lhe fee-8imple of the lanJ in Llw Council by Act of
Parlioment. lu the opinion of your CnJUmittec this statement Lnl! not been proved. The
lnnd belongs to the Crown, nnd there is no Jouht. re ·peel iug the po~ition
the Council, which
hns no power Lo hold or t.o len~r t.hc lnud in lJilestiou. The • Crowu m11.y,' ns the decision of
the 8upt·ome C'ourl above q11oled voints llUl, ':tt !LilY time tletarmiue the poaselllliou.' Under
these cil'cuwstno~es your Committee woulclt·cl'lpeclfu!ly suggest to your 1lo110rahlo llouse, Lha.t
ihe question ill dispute, nnd which the Bill raferred tu us i:~ intendcll to Ut)l'ide, is a. question
for tbe Executive to determine, :ls representing the Crown, whose prope;jrty the ln.ud is
respecting which the question h o.t~ m•isen."
nr
Qneatiou-thnt paragraph 0 stand i>n.rt of the Report-!Jut :md. negtl.tived.
Question-thnt ne1v pnragt·a.plt-proposed by M1·. )lirams-sta.nrl part of the Roportput !l.lld resolved in the aflirmo.ti 1•e.
Paragraph lO, rend.
xi
Mr. .Miram11 run\ccl that this paragraph bt' omitted, and that the following be
inl!t'rted in lieu thereof:" 10. 'l'hat. &8 JIIJ doubts cxiat 81' l(l the owner~thip or the land in quet~tion, tl&ere <'Pll
~ no doubts to remOTe ; but in the opiruon of your Committt~e, did auc·h douhte cxi11t, to
remo\c them in the
811ggeated by this BiD would ~to f,rive lrgielatiTci!:UJc'lion to the
mi~~appropriation of puhhr property.''
"'"l
Qucetinn-111at paragrnpl& HI stand part of the Report-put and negativ('d,
Qut•t<tiCin- 'l'hnt new piU'llgraph-propoFed by
put. atulTC~>olvcd in the affirrnntire.
~IJ". ~liruroe
~I r. Mirnms-ltand
part of the :Report-
muvC'd that the follo\\ing paragraph be inBerled BR pamgrnph l1 of tlm
Repurt :" l•'urthm· in tho opiniou of your Committee the st.atemenu. uf the proo.mhle 'that
tlw City ol' ~nudlour.. t h1111 frmu tiull' to Lime expended money from its corporate funds in
clrainingn111l imp•·o1 Ill){ u,o Vltlllt,.Jotlds,' and • the Mid pnblic- bnthl' nr•• l<till rnnintninc-cl by
till: ~ni1l c·ur-purut iuu ut gnlnt upt-utw,' lune not bee:n pro•ed."
Qut>Ktl<ln-pul aJHI ru!lolvcd in the aflinnative.
J>uJ'U!{I'nph 11 111 tin• })mft.Jleport rt•ad and amcndecl.
(.)J'IJ! iunl Pnrngrnph 11 lll:i ru•u'nciPd, again read and agreed to.
Orrft-rrtl- 'l'hni I Ill' ('J,nirmnu dn report to the House.
Committee adjourned.
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
TUESDAY, llTu .JULY, 1882.
Membn-1 prl'lt:nl ~
~tn.
~lr. Ander~on,
Mr. Langtlon,
W11rxoN, in the Chair;
l\1 r. ~Grams,
)t r. Walker.
'l'lte Petition for the Bill wn.a rerw.
Mr. lltlm appenrt-d 118 Count'~cl in support ofthc Petition.
:Mr. Motteram ftJl}K'llrcd t\8 Agent.
The petition of Jamcs 'Bvycl. 1\f.D., ngainsl the Bill, Will! read.
Mr. Mclntyre &Jlpcarc.l as Counecl in support of ibc Petition.
Nr.11r1. Duffi.it and .Manton appeared as A.Honts.
The pre:~mhlc of the Bill Wllil rMtl.
Mr. lltlm wns heard to utl.lrcss tho Commil~1:0 in Sll(lport ot' tln: preumblc.
Willinm Dixon t:.'tunphcll Dt•no\·nn. cnllcti.- F.xaminad by .Mr. Helm.
J. rou aro ·tho 'l'own Clerk ()f the City of Snutlhurllt P-I tun .
., You eurt'L'<ltlerl, I holicn!, 11 ~'I r. )flu:douJ(tlll nl' Clt"·k ?-1es, l diu.
n. Who succeeded :Mr. Gcm·g•• A:r11ry Fletcher·?- Yc!l.
4 . .And prcV"ious to your flXCrcisiug thu otliro nf Town Clerk, you woro ut tliffercnt
times ll member o£ the City Oorporntion, anllllCIJUilintcJ \\ith ita procnt•tlings r-l~or ucurly
three , ·e:lt'6 a Councnlor.
• 5. Mr. MacJoub>allnnd Mr. Flctcher nrt; both dend ?-'l'hlly arc.
6. Uo you produce ru1 eltrnd fro1u the Oorrrnmtmi Gazet/1! of the 8tl• .July, 18icl ?yes, 1 hn ve it here.
7. llnvc y11u cxutniuctl tlmL with the ori~iaml ?-I hn\·c.
S. la it .:m·rot•t.? - It i11 nn I'XR.c:t .:opy.-~ Ph" Rtwu1 wa• /,anrlrd i11, and i• nt fo/lfiU.'I 1 ~­
" Samlllllr!lt.-Site fu:r Publk Rnths nnJ lluulu· Convenicncu.-One rood t:enmtoen ptu-cht~a
nncl ihreu-q••urtcl'1', County of R!'nrligo, Bt~ruugh of Saudhur~>l, ]lc•ing nllotmcuL 5 r•f scctiou
bSC: coturncnl·iug nt the uortl• ungh· of the nllotrncut, l•cing the junction of the soutbcnstcru aido of l:li!!h-Htruet with thu enuth-wl•stu•·n t<i•h• of 'Mit ... hcll-stroot; bouudccl them~
bv the lnst·nnmcd street bcttring IJnuth 51 tlcgn·CJ< caBt om• d1ain 51 liuka: thence by
nllotm£'Dt 4 bcnring south 3!'1 dt•t,rret•s \\est t\\11 chauJt;; thence hy allotment :l bt•zuang nort.b
51 degrees "·e"t two cbniua t.·n liuka to the tirtot·namotl l!trt!!'t; ruul thence hy tlmt street
l!Mring north .J5 dC!,rrt•es ~2 miuuics <'ust twu chains eight links (muro or lesR) to tht' point
of commencement."
!1. Attached to that lhe:re is nnotlwr om1 of the !?bt .Julv.l87l !'-Yea.
I U. ,\ ud you hn.vc examu•Oll hoth with thu original11 ?-i have.
11. C0J1 vou s.'Ly wbetbcr ihoau clrLlct~ nre the Sth .July, l~iO uud U1e 21st .rulr, 1~71;
nrc thoy tlw J.ntue of the rescrrution1 or tho J.ates upt•D wliich they were proclaimed in the
Gt~:l'ilr. ?-'!'hey nre the uatos of tbo Gazette• iu whirh they were publiahed.
Mr• .Mcintyn! submitted it; wouiJ be more satiE'factory illat the Ga:eile itBelf should be
pa·otluced.
12. B.v Mr. Helm.-A.t thnt time I believe tlw Jll:.al•e calletl ~andhun~t Wll8 n 'Municipal
Bvrough ?-It \\'118.
2
13. It. ho." since become a Oitv P-Yes, since 187l.
U . You liB.Y you ha.vo examined these witlt the Gaztrtlll and you find them correct~­
Yes, thol'c nra exact copies of the aamu notices iu the Gazcttt• .
. Mr. Mclnt.vre. uhmitlod lhat rus a ureaL deal of coufiicting evidence would be no doubt
given before the Committee the evidence should be taken upon oatil, 11.11 Select Committees at
home have lhe J>Ower to administer the oath.
Tf,B Chairman replied that the Committee ho.d contridered the matter and h.ttd decided
that I his Committ-ee had uoL the power to a.dmi.nit~Ler the oo.tb.
Mr. Mcl1ttyre quoted 21 n.nd 22 Victoria co.p. 7 , section 1, a.nd remarked tho.t
" May " mltleulhe word~.~ " any witness."
Tl1e Ohairman.- Thn.t is subsequent to our corutitution, und I am not. aware ~ha.t it h8.8
ever been uxteoded here.
Mr. M.clnf.tp·e o.sked whether the Committee had power to report to 1he Houl!e that
witnesse:~ wel'e guilty of per:jury if such a case shoulcl arise, lltl that power had existed before
21 and 22 Yit'f.oria.
l'he t'i1ainnan.-W c will decide that case when it urisel;.
15. .By M1'. Helm.-Ha.ve you examined these Jocwuents with the schedule to the
Bill ?-I btwe
16. Do you firul them correct P-I do.
17. After the recoiJllllOndations, did the Town Council expend any money on that land?
-Yes.
lM. Or the Municipnl Corporation. na it then was ?-They did.
19. A.:rtd, tl.l! you ea.id before, the Oity Corporation now ?-Yes.
20. li'1·om what source did they derive the money that they expended ?-'Fhe Corporation funds.
Mr. Mci11tyrtJ objected that this witness, from his persmml knowledge, did not know
this.
The Witne88.-l know it from the books that contain all our proceedings.
21. B.'l Mr. McLityrtJ.- Who in.tlt.ructed yo11 to inapect. the books; is it your dnty to
go back to :forgotten ages, n.nd inspect the records ?-Certainly i if I am instructed by any
councillor, I do so.
22. Were you instructed to do so in this matter?-Yes.
23. H:we you got. lhe booka with you ?-Yes.
Then you had better produce the books before you give secondary evidence.
2-11. By Mr. H11lm.-Have you II11l.de an epitome, and do you kuow, aa To1vn Olerk,
that out of the corporate furul.s the Town Council or Oity Council have expended thousands?
-Yes; about £6,000.
Mr. Moliatyre objected that the books should. be produced.
Mr. Helm .-1 understand that those books are not here.
.Mr. Mcltt(llre object~J to secondary evidence being admitted.
25. By Mr. Helnt.-Ilow long lur.ve you been Town Clerk P-.Yearly three years .
.Mr. Helm was hc~tt.U to address the Committee iu ~<uppor~ o£ !.he e1·idunce being
admitted .
.Mr. Mcin.tyre was heard in reply.
The Oltairmut~ sug~ested that Mr. Mclntyre's objection coultl be met by Mr. Denovan
III.Il.k.ing a 11ta.tutory declaration that he had examined. the books, lldl.d could hand in the
declaration to the Commitltle.
Mr . .Mcintyre ngain submitled that the books should be produced.
26. Bg tlw C!tairman (to Mr. H87m).-What ie the objection to producing the books?None whatel'er, excepL their immense bulk. W e will undcrt.ake to M\'e them t.low·n, and have
them before the Committee before they aujuclicate.
ThfJ OltairiiiMI -\V ill that meet your vie\v, Mr. Mdntyro ?
.\lr. Mch~tyre.-1 oortninly prefer that the books should be produced; but if it ill
understoo1l tlmt they prollliPc tltnt the books shall be produced, 1 will not pre~;s the objection.
'1.7. B.v Jh. llelm.-Theo, as a temporary piece of eridence, co.n you say that money has
bL>till HJIODl upon Llti piece of land ?- Yes. AB nea1·ly all I have inspected. lhe book:j for
myself, o.nd as uen.rl.r 11.s 1 Clill give you it, nbout £6,000 to the present dnte.
28. L.t wha.t work llas this money been expended ?-Iu sevt:ral wo1·ko. The occupnnt~
bad w he compenmled-the occupanl.s of the ground. It had theu to bo <L·ained and bo.ths
erected, nnd soma £1,500 wa1:1 Hpant on the ground.
29. Keep away from Lhe other piece of laud ?-In my £6,000 I iucluded the £1,500
given for the freehold.
4
53. A ncl I he Council desire to have those t•ertain tloubte 118 to tlto \'Rlicljty of tho leuc,
and so ••n --?-They "·ant a legnl title to the land.
•
Mr. llelm.-Then, if the Committee '~ill permit me, I may say thut I. hll\'C cloaetl my
cue us far ll8 tho preamble is concerned.
Crou-examined by Mr. Mcl~tl!lr~.
M. You BB)' you are 'fown Clerk of Sandhurat-how long have you been Town Clerk?
-Two years and fh·e montha.
55. Wl're you a member of the Town Councilllt the time the nt.treement was entered
into ?-No; not for many ~·CAra afterwards-not for aereral Jl'Bl'll nfterwarola.
5H. You said tn my friend that you henrtl, or were infnrrnccl from the uoo'ks tht you
produced, that £U,OOO land heen expended upon the IMtl P-Thnt incl111lecl nl.J(lul .C6,000,
mclutlin~ tho £1,500 pniol by the Council to Ur. Atkinson for the freehold.
57. Whnt 1 mean i1:1, upon the lnnd11 before tho l'ummiltm! 1\1, prl'scnt. They ha.vo
nothinl! to du with that. Can ynu say how mu.·h \\1\8 expended upnn this land?-About
£4,500.
.'i'>. In what wa~ was that expended ?-In &c\·cral wa\'1!, .. ucb ns comp•·nsnting r~siolonta
up<•n tlw land. At tlw tim•• it \\Ill! ternpornrily rcl!cn-eu for lmtl• rUid other pur('o·o·&.
59. Who were thnfltl resident,., nucl how much diu vnu gh·o e:wh or them r -'l'he time
is so lou~ n~o that l,;c:m:f!ly remember without referlmce.
UO. Wa" morl• tlum £100 p:tid ?- I l'llnuot' uow rcnwu1ber the R!'H'iral umu•mt11 pnid to
the resirlentl', hut 1 know the :unount c.xpcrulcd by tho Council from then tu dlltc is nbout
£ ·J.,(jO(J,
61. But I shoulcl like tu luL\'6 moru part irulnr11, nnd I think thll ( 'ommiltce ccrt ninly
want to hnvc more particular infonnn.tion about thi11; .£4,1>00 is a large lump eum to tnlk of
!!O gliblr.
'V c wnnt to know how the money WllS spent-how much was spent iu CIIIIIJICnll!lting
the peopll~ in pos.~cssion of the ground ?-1 think I can give you some information upon that
subjcct.-[11/H~ v:ilnu1 rtjf-rml to a pnprr.]
62. Whnt is tlult pap<·r :'-This is taken from tbo minutes.
ua. By yourl!c)( P-It is IIIIJlerintcndcd by myself.
611. You l'l\n certify to this being accurate in l~,·ery particular ?- 1 tlo.
6;). ]{en•l it plm.eu ?-Expe~ulituro in )Jaths-crection and •lrainAgc, £l,i46 111!. •lJ.;
J>lans, etc., £1:!.~ r.s.; "a!arics, £lU6; ln.w charges,£ L55 7s.; maintcrannt•c to b11tbs, £ LlO;
compunsation, £5ll; gal! fittings, £ 'l2 3;;. 811.; furniture, £2l 3s. Sd.; 'lighting, £22 !.ls.total, .C2,5n I 18s. :J,J.
lW. 'L'hnt is a great olilll-relh'C· from £ •! ,!i00-a.bout .£:.!,1)-.1 you make it. y,,u know so
ltlucl• nhout thi~< lnnJ pcrhnps you cu11 tell this lwnornhlc Cornmitlt.>u lww much the htnd, what
proportion of the lnnd is n·ally r·c~l·rt'od at. the prc11t•nt moment fi>r thu us,, of tlto hn.lha ?Yes; 1 h:molctl in 11 statement that will tell that.- mm rood 13 perch~!R nnd threc-fout·ths
I thiuk. as ucurly tts I r••colltlct, it; is .iu a tC'IllliOrMy rP!!l'rmtioH ; 1t is sign•·.! by mysd£ liS n.n
oxn.ct 1·opy.
Oi. /:ylltf1 Committr~.-ls that includl•d in thi11 lea.Re ?- \res.
0'. llow mueh ie thu portion of land for batl1s i'-[ 'L'/ut roilnr.u riferrt:<i fo r. puper.]
·• Site tor l'uhli1: Hat hH :wcl Pulllie Com\·euit•IHlO about to he pernumcntl) l'<'l!CrH!•l, pursunnt
to order of :?Sth Juuc, IS'i'l, being the Ailc tornpornrily rcscr\·ed tho•rt'for ltv urolt>t' of 4th
.1 uly, l~ill-Ouu rouoi8C\'<'Jlteen pc•rclii'R and thrce-fourtl•s.''
•
li!l. Is tl.lllt nil taken up with the baths, ;\.fr. .Mt·lutno wnuts to kuow?-Tlll'rt: itt
buildin~.
•
70. IIO\\ lllUch iN letUtl·d, nua hu\V much is uccupiPcl llY h:tths ?-Thc Survevor will
point out thnt.
·
•
71. \·uu clo nut know ?-1 kno\1- thu hu.ttu~, hut it i11 unt in my clepnrlmtmt. It is
hardly fair t•> ask me 9ucstions that arc f~Jr the Suncyor.
7:?. By Mr. Jli·lnl,'ll'lr.-13ut. ~<poakiu~ rou~hly, as 11 matt of LusiucM, ~bout one-sixteenth
part of the wholo lnud rcsern•ol tlw baths ar,· t•rt•dml upon ?~1 cnuld uot tell You. The
Suneyor will answer tho.;e 'luestlon~; it is in bi& clcparLment .
•
73. Then you s:1y thnt. large HlllllH were apcnt upclll the grourul, nt11l thcu ~ou R.'\Y tlu1.b
euitablc b:uhs were <'l'~cted nnd thnt the ln.rge ~«Uills wero c.xpcudt.'tl in the ercctiou of suitnble
lndios' bat "• ?-rea.
H. C:m you ;!ay from ynur knowledge, it is a ma.tter of' comm<•n twloriPLy, whether
thoSl' lmt h~ were o~···upied at all. or were they used for the JIUr(llll'l<!.S of u bath, wt-ro tl1ey
enitnbl~ ll8 you say they were r-:-.r know they 11&\'0. ht't'll maclc l!uitn,bll• null ILI'O very l:u·gely
)lllti'OIIIBC<l , :l.OU \\'~ llrO 110\\' dcrJ\'IIIf? a moclcrately fa1r l'C\C:nUO from tlJCIIl,
5
75. "1• ·u wet·
cannot
tl~t·y
put runiacJ firsl-hcow mnny ~'l:lrs after tlwir er ct'on?
toll~ •
-r
or
70. Is it tru thf!_\' 1 •t'(l W·•~cl for the put·poaes
u Mining Exchaug ?-Fur a elwrt
time aftpt the old Bc•ehil-c was btu·ncd t.iown-pcrlel·tl. tru .
77. \\rt~rl' dit r u I}Q : n 71riniug H C'.hnttgc priui' t;(l Ihat ?-I C(IUI•l uut ll:f, r ouly
know frutu licnt·sa\·.
i . You ltiu· pokeu IIJILI!l cJLhllt' subject~< fr11lll J.t. r uy; you might suy ttp u thiH~­
T/,,. Committee. -Hut you would nM let him ·3) f ·om hem·. ny, so you •' uuwt lllumo
him for t' fu!\itL~.
7!l. B11 .Jb·. l!r.lnt,l/r1.•-You sa: no eomplniut lnu• been mild nbont ih buths thn
tlwy w rl unsuital.!l ?-rro, noL in my time
0, la it 1111t a malt 1' !J!' gcucrul nnt•u·i •I \ tltnt 1ho I c.lic nf, undl111l t «•1Dpln.tn of Llw
unsuil:,Uilit) ,f thct'nirnn·
tb:tlltlycoultlnot ,.,·t ut th lmthsb•cnu tic
.dcd
oret• fur tJJC pill'!•• t•s clf 11 .litlill~ Exclutii"O: -1 bdiuve I hat wu in 1 i l or i 72. Sin o
tlu~n th y huvu l>t' •u ·cp1Liri' I ami :u·• pat runi .ell b~ lncli<' • ·t, 11 j, ·ly.
I. How Ion • pr.. ctk-aii,\ 1 :n· tht•) h eu in u~• : lnclie ' lmths-thut i wlmt I wnnt
to kn ..w ?-'nun ll'liUld llt•t y. I ~UliW that, th ) IH\\C t.~c·Jl duriu r my tim' ll To\ ll
C'.l·t·k, 1ut bo•fur fl en I t:oul•l uola-:.w.
8!! l.'ould you sny hm1 luut·h t~wltcy t h«> l'ou~t~il h• ' •· ptmrlcu liJlOtl t hl' lund ~ hil·lt
th laH'('l ut·c O•·•·upying ;~t 1h pruarullll\lllll nt11~1•: ; 1 rr11 I that amount t. ~ ou. I tlnuk[refcrnn.'l to a papn•]. lt is £:! :;!)l 18•. :}.(
3. 1100 t.l.J • lnml I ·vi ell tu llr'. Huy•l , ro • ou nr uf thM ~; that i 1'111111 :1
portion -upon the lnud D•·· Buyd hol,ls npnn ~ k•IE< nt P~"' t'nt.
8!. H iA llllllll tl.t. t lnnd
85. lt is 110t upnu tlw lnilioil' b. th ?-1t is upuu both.-You Ill' pc iu' of l·htl
lnrlie ' hnllt .
li. 1 Dt·. Uovcllcs 110 of Lhu lndit ·' hnlh, r--X o.
P-I n) 1hut the 1110n ~· p ·ut by
7. 'l'h ·u ho1~ "',·an vou ay t.lial I], · 2,:10 l
tho Council hu.s bucn ~pent tq•ou tlw !!rtJiuHI.
t\ . 1 1\'ILUt j 1 kU<lW hoW lnllt'IJ JlllfiH'Y l1n, hCt!ll Bp •nL UJlClll th 'rfll nd Ut'l"ttpicd ll\'
le!lseea-ltn.H tlwr be(•n n ponny of it spent ?-'rhn.t I lllll not eel'htiu of; thu l'lll n·cyo•· t•rut tell
.r•u
:-re.
YOU
t.h!\1.
tl!l. Y'ou l'llnnot tell nuythiug ttbout lho lee~ei' heing put to n gi'Ul\1 o -pensH ?-1
uutl rstnud thnt tlc ·~ lin,.,! xpeu~leu :1 I:Lrg• sum of money.
9 l. In c.lrnmrtgl'-UI\ ing I•> tlce tld't utin• drtliu:tgo of your lndic,'lmth !--1 ilo nut
know thnl, hul. wb.tl lme:LIIL m in buildin!. .
!ll. 'l'h1 1Jilltu1y., Alllll uppc•"•' ,·ou i>U t•eball' of the C'orpor:uio11 say the SUIDc i.hiurr
U.1n.1. th «.o~[IIH'Iltion till m. inlniu (U.10ugh it tli·l not in p!U!t J t':U'~) the hath ut g•· :nt
expen l'i''-Y ·~.
!'12. f Oll t!tliU ju 1. IJ()W tlwy hrcmght in !1 COUI!idtm bit I' \ OllliC r~ Y .
!I:J, 1. thu t 'l't 1111 grenll r thaa tht> m:p .uee ?-Tlw lnJies' lmlh tlte cltt t two year
bnve lweu Bli!-[hlly more tlmn clcnrin,!{ them~clves. '11het·e i a ali~;ht ri'I'CIIIIt•,
•
D • In fiwt ~ln· Oouttdl luw • been gutting f'ull \'ttlue fot• th~ utuuc~ tlwy h 11'c ~pent
ll(}OD it ?-1n tiJ11e they may. 'l'hey Jlo llllli ~ yet, lJut the l't'l'Cipl C Ct:t•U lhc XJ\CU•litUI'6
bv u snlnlllluJu.
•
9.:t. Wa>l it :1 fi~t·t that; thv la<lie' hatlt<~ were clu~e·l fo1· 11\n nr tlu· \'e:u· :~ftm· t!.<·ir
crel'liou. tllltil pul•lic t'•>tll[llniut.; IICl'llt< iluteu llteir ro-upening- i,. tlt:tl a ii;ct? I f'.lll uulr
apeuk from he.lrllJ,r. l know at. th timo tlwy were UH•d :\~ 11 )linin~ Bxclumg • l ) w r~
•
do~ea
u n but h
~)ti. HI w ltlll~ w "rl I ht V u etlaH :1. l\[iniu~ E:wh:m~c :-A Yt!l'\' ,]wrt I inu : \'Oil lllll r
say two ut• thrtc mm11ha, hut i tml uot l.'crtaiu, it is :so Joug ag •: tl!at ·\\'nR in JS7! •
•
Hi. "1111 yntt f!UJ h(l\\' much mon ) the ( 'nnn ·il ~nt for lhom wlt •n tlu:y Wt r(l 11 eclu n
fiuin~ Eschuug<i r - I mi~ltt ; 1 eouhl nut tell ju.-t now.
l lmow dwt•c wuH a NlllU11 l\ uu1111L
or retll:tl. I L wus uul Jnrgo. TIJer luul to gn ttJ sume ex pen c to fit th(• pl:~cc up.
liS. In ynlU' opinion hn!4 nut th mom·y spent upon tlw lnc.lics' bnt.hfi been nearly nil
recoupt•tltn llu 'ou11cil?- -o.
0!1. J\ ~rf'at p••upni'l ion nl' it ?-No.
• . . H!U· ll•m' mw·h uf it ?-'J'h, prufita arc o small over the e:s:pouditurc thnt it is
infin 1tcs~ tmnl.
. li.IL 1 all you ,;ay if any gentlemen's bn..tha wero erected upon ll1itl Jauu r-Thoro i- u.
portti)U. J tuink.
Ill~. llq t/1,., (,i/llllllitfer.-Da not you know a thing of thnt kind; do nnt. vou know the
use to wl•ich the lauu i~ put ~-But, Dlltortunatdy, there nre others. There is~ portivn thnt
6
wa8 freehold ;wd a portion granteJ by the Government. The freehold adjoin the land granted
by the Govcrnwe11t, and the Council bougl1t ]t for £1,500 from Dr. Atkinson.
103. B!J Mr . .Mcintyrl'.-l ask upon the land under consideration now, has any othei"
batl• been erecte(l uesiiliJ the lodics' bath, which only occupies a small portion of the land?The Sur,·eyor will1lllswer that question, I am not certain, but t.hero may be n smnll portion of
tho gentlemen's baths upon the land.
104. Wllo.n wero the gentlemen's baths erected ?-In l 71 I think.
These things took
place so lm1g before I took office that I cannot tell you.
105. Any resillent of Sandbul'llt, as you ba.ve been for some time, will recognise that
that there is a l'igbt-of-way hetwoeu the ladies' baths and the gentlemen's bn.tbs ?-Yea.
106. A.ntl. this right-of-way is not inclutled in the lllJlds lem;ed to Dr. Boyd by the
Council, therefore I cannot see how a portion ot' the gentlemen's baths could be upon the
ground?-Ye11, but they are 1:10 C'lo ·ely adjoining after you pass up the entr:,nce tltn.t I t'1lllllot
aay. lUr. Stenne will be woet likely to answer these questions. It is for him, not. for me.
10i. And nt present you 11ay tlmt the balbs ~e paying their way?-Tes.
10 . They are r-Ycs.
109. And yon cannot tell wholher the gcntlemcn'tl bn.lh~; are erecle.l upon tllic· land,
anti you would nut sa.y how· much, i£ UllJ, of this lnnu bns been utiliHed for ll1o pm·pose of
lndies' balht:t ?-No.
110.
11 hough it is n. matter o£ notoriety to every citizen of 'n.nultu~st; you will not
say t.bnt l'-'l'he Sun·eyor will e:~y it; it it:t in his department.
He-examined by Mr. Helm.
111. Then, as n lllalter uf fu.<•t, JOU, of your own knowlui!"'t>, do not 1.-uow Lho whe1·enbouts of I he genLlemen'11 hnths i'-1 kuow the gentlemen'!! b~ttbs.
112. Do the !!enth•meo'll or tl1o lodie • bathi:i, ot· both, l'etul'n n pt•ofit, ufLt•r the
neceStUU'J (•:qli~Udittn·fl ami int<:I'CSl 11110ll the OlOllCJ r-.A very light Pl'olit. The object of
the Council is not to mn.kc a prolit, laut to benefit thu citir.en11, so they trv to mn.nng · ~l• ns to
•
recoup tlte alillunl outlliJ hy the n.nuual receiptH.
113. Do you induilc in the nnnunl out1ny tlte nece:~~:~nry amounL of inl(;lr(•st upon Lhe
money c\pt'ntletl upon 1.he Jll'OflN'I,Y ?- o.
11 J.. 'f'hnt is n·hat J mennr. Then your lllillUal l'ncripte; nru n · Ul.'al'ly n~; possible
e•Jui\'alent l<• the auuunl t::tpcrulit lll'e ?- T I'M.
1 t;:; B!t tlu Uommitln·.-N ot includin~ the interesL ?-Not iuclu•1in~ the interest.
110. w·"..e you n couucillor at, the time Lhis lnu1l wa lca~eur- ·o; and not for
tlu·ee \"ear~ a fte r·wn•·<h..
· 117. !),, yo•1 know ~tnything of the tirt'Ulllslruii'Cf' conm•dr.u with the lcaM?-~o, only
from henr1my, ns one of the puhli":
11 q . ..:\ ncl \<Ill fir• · n"t al1l1' tu inform the Cum mitten huw mm·h of tho l:uul in di~pute
is reull) ot·<'upied hr hathll-:•ou do not lrnow tbn.t ~-No; tht! • urn•yor will l.Je nblc to
say
tu;~t.
JJ,· Hdm .-Pcrruit me to malw thia explanation. I imngim:J thi:; pr•·umble was n.
met·a fna•mn 1 proof, aut! I hat my fa·iend woulu uot CJ'n~~<·C~I\IIIillc; nml I tru$l the Committee
will allow Ill(! to cx:11uiuc ntl!l!l' wilnes~es.
'1.1lrr Ohl!irmati.-C<'ri:Liulv
.lfr. MclniJJI'C ro :ual'ked i.hat Mr. llelm Sllirl he
bn•l .slJ•cudy dolled his cn«o upon the
preamulc
110. BIJ tlu· O,mmiiiN (tot/,. Jri.tiWsii) .- You h:wo ~ivl.!ulls hel'l.~ n li . t ttt' i lw cxpenrlit.tu•c,
:uul in tl•i~ )Oil ill\:lutl~·•l .t;l,i l·tl 11:<. ld. for the en·ctiun of hntJ,, mul druinn~c. Does tha.t
iudmlc t lu~ .\pcuJitun: ll)loll both bnths, the ~entiNntm·~ mu! ~Ill' l:uli"". "!- t'es.
]~\}. l>r>t·s this £~.501. tlte tutal experaliLun•, uwludl· t!J~ tntal P-lJ.ll'llllilure npou both
kinds ot l!ltth" "· -I uud,·•·~tuud t<o
I~l . A.ntl .n~t. we •mtlt·r·~taud lhM ouc of tlw bn.th~< is upon pu•·chn:cd propel'ly ?-Ye11,
belougau~ to the ( 'ouueil.
12~ . 'l'lwu t.lw whulc uf Ihi,; £~,5!H has not beeu >~pent u pou 1hP. lnutl whil'l1 iR h1
cli~put.e now?-Yc~<, lthiuk the gr('atcr pnrt of it·. H iR moro in the ·urYcym·'tl tlop:trltnent
thnn mine, n.nd I shoult.l. feel rc•·y much ul.JligeJ if you would '1 uer;f iou l1im tt pcm the subject.
IIo knowll all the pnrliculars.
128. But l wunt. to know, hcfm·e we cmmine othel' wiluc. Pes, thi :-The p01'tion of
]:mu you purchn,.Nl, which )'fill cnll the freeholu, fol' which you pni•l £1,500, iJS 110£ iu di;~pu~e
at nll. \V e ore not here to cli~<l'tl><, 1hnt. or to r;ett.lc it i:u any wa~- wh:ll .,·er-m·e we ?-IL Ill
iuduJcll in Dl'. 13nytl's lease, 1 llllllo•·stand.
7
Mr. Hrlm.-It is not includctl in tho premnblo at nll. Incidentally in the 1wtitionere'
ease it is.
124. B.v the Commitlu.-Then we-, ns n Committee, Bre furnislted \Vith 11 li!!t of e:-rpen·
diture whirh inducle" money not aprnt upon tho lnnrl ?-Thnt is a mi~<ln),c. Thnt is upon the
ladies' bnths, the expend it nro.
125. Will you he nble Lo ~them t hnt from thr huCiks of tlte Counl.'il ~-tltat, in nu•king up
this lillt of e:qJenditure, you ha'l"c Btlpnrntecl betwt.tcn the money <•,;\u•urlo·d upon t!to frt.tt'hold
for Ihe gentlcmeD's bRths nnd the mnnl'Y expended upon the leaseho tl for the lnd~es' bnths?
-Yes.
126. You ";U?-Tcs, without. .Iiflicultr.
1!!7. In lLis list you give nn it~·m oi' r<!r·ciphl from bnth~. £!!02 G~. !!tl. DOI'I! that.
include the rc·rcipts from gcntlumou's bnth~ M well ns lntlics' batl111 P-I cnnnot Fny certainly
without rorl'telll'C.
12~. Wlten you cnme fil'1't you lltnted thnt the total cxpentlitllre ha,] bl'en some
£6,000 ?-Abt1ut tlml. IL incluacd the Cl,iiOO.
129. £1,500 for tlw vurchne!! of the freellold ?-Ye~.
130. 'l'hnt lt11't £-1,500 ns the tolnl cxpenditm•t• ol' the C'oundl upon thCl!n public
baths?-Yet~.
1:11. 'l~hcn :ue we to uutler,;tnnd thnt out of lho £..1-.GOO whi··h iR I ha toi:Al cxpcnrliture,
£2,5112 i6 tht.! portion expendCii upon the lcnRehold, and the bnlnnco expended upon the
frceho1J ?-That, without rt>fcrcncc to tlu• books ngnin, r would not like to say.
182. 'l'hen wl1nl i11 the objcl~t of' l•riu~n~ this />o.per. unless you nre nblo to iuform the
Committee l!.ln<'tly whRt it CO'I"CrA ?-Tho Su'rVCJor wi I cxplnin thnt.
188. la tho Surn•yor t:he honldn•t•J!l'r ?-Xo; buL it. is in his <lcpnrtmont moro.
13•1. I could undc111inntl tl1n Surroyor being nblo lo inform llw C~otmuifiec nhouf the
p111Ds, lh£1 11-lfil'l nrcn occupied by thia ltnth ~md the other b:nb, aml tlw point wl1ero they
touch ent·h otlwr. but I cnnuuli nndersiDJld the Surrcyor being nl•lo to inform the Committee
nbont tile items kept iu the books. Selling thcro nro two 1Ultlla, ono upon frecltold lrmd, with
which wn lm,·e notlting to do, and lho other upon l.r~,eehold, we wnnt to lmo\T "he!lter this
mmwy is the mouoy 11pent upon bntha npon the lc:t!loholclln.nu ?-H iR.
1:15 Yousny it il!?-fL ia tht• mortov ~pont. upon the lea!:elwlcl.
13tl Does tl10 Comrnit!l'e undcl'tltnnd dearly tlwl 'this £2,5!ll lutR been expended upon
tbe luJiea' ltntl111 upon the lrMeholtlland ?-Yes. tLnt is it.
l:i7. And tbnt tho £2i)() amongst 11w iut•ome nncl receipts is t·callv income [l'Om tltc
l.,dies' lmths, rwa t}oes not iu<'lurle inccmo from the ~entlemen's ?-res. •
18~. \\rill ynur hook!! ahon· U1n[; ?- Y"l'!l, our bnok11 \\ill show lhnt.
l:!fl. 'I' hilt ie cnnf 1'1\M" hl \Thni lOll anicla minute ngo. You ~nitl Wlll were dent· nbuut the
ex pcndit cm•, but Ilf>t o.botit thll I'r.t:c·ipla ?-Y cs, I rlid n•;t enll it" to memory ju!!t nt the
moment.
7'/uJ Chairman (to lJLr. llr..lm). -Of cotll'!!e we underatruld thnt Wl' sluul liB\'C tht• hoolm,
whidt will (')early ~how this ilX'JWll!litmc?
Mr. JJdm.-Yns,110 J am iufonnutl.
HH• .8.11 the C'ommiftt/1 (lo !IIIJ 1Vilnru). -Where nre 1he llOoi!R now, nm l Jt,•y nt
~nmlhurst P-\" c~.
T/.c WitMIB tritlulrmo.
Ge.Jrgo }(ohcrt Boyd ~tc:mc, callcd.-Exnmined by ;lfr. 1/l'lm.
1•!1. \"ou :tre Stn'l'tiJUI' to tlw <'ity of l'innrlhm·11t P-1 tun.
l.J.!? How Ion~ hu1'0 you ht.ten Roi'-Ne:trly elenm yont·:l. t'rom Au~ust, 1"'71
113. llrLI'O you prepnrcd :\ plan 1lmt you ha1·•• hcfurc you ?--Yea, I propnrcd this
litho~raph
plnn, nntl I n);;o prcp:m•d this eopv of it.
l4l Ha1·e you cxnmin8il those (llnn:, :~nd •u·o they correct?-\~C!!, they nrc corr<·ct, I
mado tho survey mys£'lf, llllll I DlAdc tho plnu myRPif.
1 u;, Arc tllt'\' iti('Jtlic!!ll with thol4u in the tc<l'ilf~(lllluto the Bill ?-'l'hev arc: thnt iM, the
porliun colorud red ~howa the ~untl doRc•rih<'d in tho Bill.· -:The plan W~M iwnt!,,d 111 ~
14G. !;a.u you tdl us what n.mount, (I!' grouuc.l the hn.th~ upon the rel!l'rvu oc•cupy ?-So,
I cannot tell thnt ju~t now. I pn•pnretl it rwd supplied the informntiou, J.,ut [ cannut
remember it 1111d I see it is not shown upon tbc plo.n.
117. lM it. shown 11pon the (JtJO hnndcil in ?-Something l··~R thn.n ltlllf an nero.
l48. \\' b:1t proportion of tlw who'le rescrvn does the ~ound o('cupicd by fl!ll l~tclies'
bn!lt, llrt•l<l:litl.~·roODlS :tllcl flO on, Ol'CIIp~· t -1 800 nppro:<imnte}y flUOUt ll CJUilrter of Ihtl Ill'Cll.
HD. By tlw Oommittee.-A quarter of ibo area comtiri8ed in the GovrJl'li/Mtlt Gazette l
- Yes, it i:; ~omowhn.t less than one quarter.
15u. It is tlraw11 to scale, is it notr-Ye:o-[appl,11irrg a rult• lo !lu plan]. 1 see it is
sornew'hat h!il:! th11n ouc qu:uter.
151. Fl,t/ Mr. Jirlm.- Was tho.t land draineJ in your t ime ?-It was.
1i32. II rul you u11ythiug to do with it r-I l'nrried out the work.
l5!l. P•·npcrly ut•aincd, m your opinion ?-Ye>~; I drrunetl it \Vith dmin pipes,
subRoq uent to thP erection of t.h e un.tl113.
15 J•• Antl was any amount paid to pel'Bons aa compousnliou for removal ?-I l!o not
know lh:t~. uf my owu k"llowleugc.
155. Iu 1S7U, were there parsons living upon t he re;:~el'H:l ?-I clo not. t'l3collec~ ii
anyone was living upon th~ reserve. I il.o not. think t here Will! a.nybody living upon the
reserve; there wa>~ upon the f reehold adjoining, b11t I think not upon l;he raaervc. I think
the l'fll-ien·c was wholly unoccupied, if my m~mtol'y serves me rightly.
156. B,11 llw Cmmnitttte.-T hen t he compelllln.tion wn.s p11.ill to persons upon 1,be freehold?
I do not remombei' anJ compensutiun. paid to persons upon the lcn!>eltohl.
157. B.v Mr. Ilelrn.-Do you remember n. JDru1 ncuned ~Lephenson there ?-I do not.
I f he 'vns there, it wna before my time.
158. Yon were not fiJ.l inhabitant of Sa.ndlmrst?-I was belore, but [ wus n.wn,y
a.t thn.L timo.
159. .A.re tlte hat.hs now of a proper character ?-They are \·cry good bt~Lh:~ now. After
their construcliou they were somewhat 1imHy, but three or .tow• yeal'& ago tucy spent some
£300 or £.1UO in nulking then1 more efficient.
Ot·oss-ex:auuned by Mr. Mcinfyt·e.
100. You say you produced plllllS of tbia l'esel'VC ?- Yea, the 11Jnn that I prep1~red.
161. ~ ou say it is perfectly correcL ?-The lllan exactly !'hows the reserve, and ~xu.ctly
shows ilie bu1ldiugll,
162 Shows exactly t he exient of the land occupied by t he builJings ?-T es..
163. It tloea P-Yes.
11H. l.u the schedule to the Bill now before tb.i..s bon01·nble ComtniLtee, I notice that
the lliilld is clt>scriheJ M one rood 17 perches aud three-fourths r~Ye.s.
165. 1 Pre that iu your plan the whole extent of aren is one routl. eighteon perches, a.
very shgbt llifl:erence; IJ"ut could you explnin ho"· that. iliffcronce arises, there i~ n. quarlec of
a. perciJ ?-The re:111on of that sl ight difference in the area h that n portion of tLc buildings
thai were &t-cted hy Mr. Moore comes •~L ono point a f ew feet boyoncl tho boundary described
in the Gazrlt11 ; the plan shows exactly the building!! and ilimenstons of verything, t he
building~:~ ns t.bcy :u·e. 'l'he deacri1>tion in the Bill, or t he preamble of t hu Bill, is es.acLly the
ground Lbllt was granted, or tlw.t was J'Oservcd- a. copy of the Guzette no1ice.
lUO. Whence luuo~ this additional lAud been t n.ken- from the street, I suppose P-From
Crown lauds; it was u. moot point whether it was a st:reet or not.
1G'i. But if recluced t he street by a quarter of a. perch?- Ycs ; thrtt ill the portion
known a11 Charing 01'0HB.
168. Over which the public of Sandhurst at t hn.t time exercised free 1·ight of
way?-Ye11.
109. You sn.y thnt t her e are good baths n ow. What do you mean by that expression;
were they good baths when they were constructed ?- Yes ; they \vere good lmths when they
wer e cou;;tructed, with one exception that t hey leaked.
170. B.v tl~e Ommuittce.-Whem were they constructed ?-I do not know positively,
but about the end of 1871 ; they were commenced j ust about the time that 1 commenced my
duty ; I was nppointeu somewhere about J uly, A ugust, or September, 1871.
171. By Mr. Mcintvre.-Is it an improvement to baths that the~ leak than, ordinary
mortals think t.ho.t Lhoy sltould not leak, that they shoulcl bave w:tl.t>t' in Lhem ?-No; I
remn,rked that they improved the bath s, and the improvement was that they: were mn.de
water-tight.
172. When wii.B that done ?-About t hree or four yeara ngo.
173. 'l'heu, from their erection till three or f our years ago, they were n"t water-tight.?They leaked slightly.
174. D id they Lujure t he adjoining property ?- I am not nwaro t.ha1 they tlitl.
175. Have yo u heard any complnints from the adjoining lessees auout the water
coming in ?-Yes, 1 heard that the water came into one ot their l.'ellars, occupied br
Mr . McLellan I think.
9
170. You sny the lndics' baths wcr1~ mtutc water-tight four years ago. 1t 111 now 1 82,
therefore, fr.rrn 1~71, the !late of their crertiou, to 1878, thcv were not water·tight ?- No,
they wero not tl•oroughly 1\'atcr-tigbt at nny tirnc. I may
tltat I did not construct. the
baths, they were l'onetructed under tlw 1'own Clerk, and I cndc:woure<l two or three tunea
to mBkc them watc·r-liglat. but 1l1u outlay wns not eufficieuf,unt•l I recommcnde1l thnt :l larger
outlay should bo mJulo, which was agreed tu nnd was carried ou1·, nnd that wns sun·cssful;
previous to that tll!l lcnk WM reduced nnd then it wouhl increase n~:ain, but tl1is \'raa
ultimately curml, and it is cured 110\Y.
177. Have yt•ll had noy i!XjJCriL•ncu of bnt.hs f'- Yc11 1 hnve bet>.n-17S. Is it tl11• Jli1Lcticc to floor orr.r ll11• exl'.nvntiou in whid1 the water is put for the
bnt.b, co1·crod so thnt JICoplo <!nnuot get in t.o wll.llh thcmsclo;ce, is tlmt the prndicc?- ::'\o.
170. .h it n foct Umt tho~o bathe "'ere floorc•l orcr 1!0011 after tl1cir erectiou-tho h:udn
of tl1c h:~th Wl\8 tloorccl O\'Or P~ Y'elf, l rcc<•llect the circurustnncc.
16lt. How long wns it floored on·r for?-J •lu not know. n fuw months I think.
cannot recollect cncth·, hut at " ' IU! thnt time, iu conscqucncc of tho fire that Ol'l'Urrt:d, J
tllink that "ntt 11, at t~c Bcel•ivo " 'here the l'!l.iuing Exchange wns lwld, :uul n tcn1porary
l\1 iuin~ J~xchc111ge wn11 mndc there, but T took no pnrti.:ular nouec of it, uwll only a1 cak of it
from ntcmort.
181. I bclicvo the Council got a r••nt for the :MiniDg l~xt•bangc ?-1 bdicvo they did,
but I luld nothln~ to do witla tbnt18~ . :)I r Dcno\·nn, the prcrious \\itncss, ~nit! tb:\t the bnths w•·rc cminl'ntly .. uitnhlo
for tb() vurp··~l'8 of bnt:hin~. l'uu \'1111 tlcscribc lo tltt, Gommitloo huw thOIIC hnth!! nrc
npJtrond.cd: nrcl tbey upon tbostrect,"'or ahutiing or ~~onnmicnt to tho street f-Tlwro is a
plll!sngc, flil or een:n feet wide, from M itd1cll-strcct direct into tllll front door of t ha bnths,
wl,icb :1ru, I Buppoec, some twcuty-five feet buck from the froutngnl!-F.omcthiug of thnt eo:rt,
fort:y £cot. )l<lSI!ihl,\._
1 ..,3, 'l hoso haths nro lndica' buths, nre tlu1y nnt ?- Yoa.
181. Ou ono side of tlais pnsugo-<-1LD YOU r~ollect the uatnro of the busin~: 6-& carried
on in tho bouse tll!:>re ?-When?
·
.l 8:-i. Sin eo it lms bccu ~.;stnblisl•cd it hns bcuu, hns it not, a hotd ?-On the right-lumd
side. Yes.
l&G. I suppoec ladies. ns n rule, do not ]trcfcr tho ncigl1hourhood of '~ hotrl r-1 do
not know, but the hotcll1ns 110 direct. commuukation excepting-] 87. Jtut thero is gcrwraUy n.lot of men lamgiug nuout the lioo111 of n hotc1 ?-Thut is
MY
n rCSJil'<'tultlo hotd.
lhS. Bt( illfr Oommitlttt. -Wlmt l10tcl is it P-l'otter's Club.
lk9. Is~ it there liOW P- It: i11. lt is marked UJWll tlae plnn as Willinm l'ottor
HlO. JJv .Mr. 'JJJclni!J"c.- You ~ny it wns uot lrcqu{'uwd lJy lndics nt first in liLci it is
n matter· of notoriety it wnl! not. Woulu it hnvo hcl'll nuy objcc:tiun tl•nt tl1o door lcalliug
into tho bnth and the door lcndiug into the hotel uru contiguous-is thut uuy ubjc:cuou tu thtl
lndies u~iu~ tlaiR bath whicb wnt1 erected l'or their com·micncc, or not ulriug it rntl•crP- No, I
<lv not 1hiuk tbc hotel being th£'rc hnd tmything to \to with tbu bnth being unpopulnr I hn\'11
nn opir•it'n nt,..ut it.
l!Jl. Whnt is )'OUr opininu ?- 'l'l.c butb wn11 UJJUl'tlly oncloBt)<l wilh llll iron roof. nul
mr.oscd to the nir nt nll ; nnd the wat{tr, when cxpvscd tu the air there for any IJm<', brcnmo
cbally cold. nnd the plnco bnd not nir et•ough and sunligltt enough. lt wns somctbinJ.: like
going into n well. lt \\RB sou111thin~ like what the Mclboun1c City Bull•& used to l1c. I do
110L kuuw whnt. tl1cy nrc lik,~ uow. It wns unntiradi1u; nud the imp ..on·mcnt l rccnnlmctnlt•d
WIUI that tl1e :roof be Jlllrtially tnltcn off, nllowmg tht· tnmlight to get in, uwl thoy have been
much moro popular since Utl\t.
102. l'hcn, in your opinion, theY were not suitnbl~ for l1ulics' bntbs : - .ilfr. //elm oltiectc•l
•
'l'llt! Wi/tuu.-suitnhility is a oomparnth u tcru•.
lfl3. B!J .11r• .Mclni!J"e.-'l'hey were not pntroni~cu by the ladies P-11wv "~1-e uot so
suitnbll~ as Llwy nre now, nnd the }Jroof is thnL they were zwt so well patronised then IUi thoy
aro now.
Hll•. Jlow long were lhc hatbs ncLually cl used to tho lndics ?-'JIIud. 1 cannot tdl. 1
t.biok tb£·y wcro oJICll for two or thrcu rcnrs, and then they were closed, and they bn\'<! b('On
open three or four ycnra rincc, l11tterly: but I have not taken p:u-tieulnr notice. 1 hn\'t~ uot
lixcd it iu wy mcmorv. I. 11111 uo~ prcfarccl for 'tlwso qucstione to-day.
.
l!lii. Whnt. led t.1 t l10 clt~siug o U1a bnlht1 P-'l'he !net that, t hoy \\ere not pntrom~ed.
100. Were auy cowplaiuta mado about lhcUI Y-Thc only compln~nl wn.s that th?Y l\Cro
let to the snmo )ei!SCC us the gcutlcmJ;:n's bath!. Tbcy were let to luu1 for somo tmlc I
10
do not know whether it was one, two, or three years, nnd tho returns f'rorn tho ha.ths ilicl uot
pny nt thnt time for n lady keeper.
197. What led to the re-opening of the baths. Did the Couuoil open them of their
own fr·oo will for the convenience of the public of andhur~t. Ol' were ther pra~:~;,ou to do it b,geuel'al indigMliou ?- lt was principnlly through t·he action ot o.JUe of the r.ouucillort~, who
had betJn three years advocating that the ll\dies' bnthll should bt~ opened. Some of the
councillors-one in parliculn.r-wl\8 very active in it, and it Will! owing to him thn!. the bu.tbR
wet·e improved, in LUJ opinion.
19 . llow mo.uy years werP they closed. You llt~y peo1>lo hnd beou ndvocaLiug for
years the propel' op(•ruug of tho11e baths, and, wl1en they were opened, tb1~t they ::~hould be
suitable. llow many years wn11 it going on? - I have not paid nuy attention. I shoulJ. ha1·o
to reckon up mentnlly.
199. By til6 Oommitt~M.-We ahould like to know nccuratelyP-I cnnuoL say n.ccurn.tely,
for I have nothiug tu go by but my memory. It illjost~iblo thn.t, \Vhen t.hu htt.ths \Vore udud.
at! a. .1\lin~ng Exchange, they might luwe been clo~e ~'or one yoar. It ill pO!Ituule-l canttOt
say certmnly.
200. \ ngue recollection ia of no use, buL we ahouJtl likt> to know the leugtb uf lime
that tbe lndrca' bathH were nctuallylltioclM such, tulcl how long they \Vere closed ?-I }Ju.vo not
looked up the infor·mnlron.
2()1. l'au we gul the mfot·nmlion, 'l\b. Uclw ?
_M,., ][elm - Wa will get it to mort·ow ; we rnnuot geL it to-day.
202. By Mr . .JrcJulyt•r•.-Do you know about the building~< thn.t: wcro ct·ectcd npou the
umd outside-do you know the chnracter ut' the buildiuga ?-I kuow the buildiug \'C'rJ well .
203. Is thnl ll (l'Ue photogrllph
the building.s-(!lamling a pilolograplt to tlie witness] ?
-Yes, that ts o. photogmpll of the building:~, down (1.1! far llH ihe wot·d (I bulieve) •• G. Webb,"
the tailor·, muncl to 1hnt point.
!!tH. Is that loasohol!l ?-1'hnt is the lDJld iu question uow, nud the aoctlsman a t the
Otller end-l_l·tifcrring ton pl<"~J. Thn.t is so frot:u Webb, nt the ouc euu, to :MooJ.y, at the
other end.
205. What is the cl.mrncter of those builtling ·-are they good ?-:-They a1·e \'ory good,
substantta.l huildiug~ .
:!06. Who ereded lhul!e l.Juildiugs ?-The round, iucluiling \Ve'LL's, were erected by
Jamc; .\loorr.
JlJr. Hdm ohjel'I(~U.
207 By lhf! Oummiller.-ITavo tho Council of Snndbnr11t spent tmytbiu~ upon thill hnd
.except the ISlltll expcncled. upon the l.a.dies' bll.Lhs-do you know r-Not to my k.uo\vlodgo, that
is ouo it(•m that I kue\\ nothing of, that 1 mentioned, tlrn.L is £5U t.o ::Herons.
20 . ny 1Jlr. .Meit~tyrtJ.-'M.y poiu L is, thn.t; Lhe Cmwcil lliWe eXllOlllled uothiug ?-In
the lndics' l111thR 1'
20!.1. t'an you ::>lute how much the OoWl.Cil received from tlte Lulie:· · baths ?-1 cannot,
1 know it bn,- been vm·y litilP iuclet>d, and I tb.in.k the lndi!!.s' haths cost something like £l,i0U.
The contract wn:; £l,UOO or £1,700 us ue(U' us I cnn recollect, nud t.h~!'O was snnclr.v e.x:peuui-
or
tru·e beside.
'
l:Le-es.a.miued. by Mr. Helm.
21U. 111 there nnr objection t.o the entrance of bditJ. I unths ou the !ICOl'e of \VUDL of
pri\·acy ?-I thiul, uot.
Bu tilt' Oommiltee.-Lut us see the photograph.
M":r. ll.t~lnt-[llandhlg in t!te 8a11UJ].-I tlm a.frnid it hardly tJbows the onlrauce.
Pile 'Witnti/S. -1 C';Ul show vou exactly the entru.ucc. Mny 1 be perm1Ltcd to mark it,
a.ucl I will lihow exar.tl) "hero the emrn.nce to the ladies' baths i&-[tl!e tiJitm:tuJ markecl tka
pkotograpJ£ accordingly].-lr. ie l~ Joor alxmt 4 feeL 6 inches wide, between the tailor's o.utl Lhe
lto~eL You eau ~ce it upou luo photogt·aph.
211. BylhtJ t:ommillee.-\VIrat di 'LUI.Ice is thl:)re bt!lween thn.L door and the tloor of the
hotel1'- 'l'herc a.re two doorwn.ys tn the hotel. One is nul) about five feet away, and the uext
one, t.he nuun entranl'O, ia, .I 11hould think, about twenty-five feet :nmy.
:!12. B!J Mr. Hl'lm.- You say you o.re of O!Jinioll d,e,· is no wn.nt of primc:y to the
l.adie ' b;tths- have you over heard nny complaiuta of wunL of pt·imcy ?- I hare not.
213. .!Itwe you ()\'Cl' hen1·d any complaiuts upon tiJC' tlCOrl.' uf tbe proxinlity to tho hotel ?
-No; I ne\·er have.
214. ¥011 c11nuut. et\y e:tnl·tly when the baths began ro IJe popular ?-I cannot say
exaetl); it ill abuut four years ago.
11
215. By the Oommi/tec.-ls this your plnn ~ t!U ltn1·e been s·eferTing to ?-Tbnt is nnc
tlsi\L }prepared; I prepnrecltwo. It isn .file simil11 oftllfl litlwgrnph
~ W . lt is n currocl plnn P-'l'lutt i11 cus•s·ect, :uul t ho lit hol-{rnph nleo.
217. Wlwt is Iho dsnrgc r.... ndnlillsion to the lndinM !lilt,,, ?-1 .to IIOt kilt)\\ llao Sc:tlo
of ehnr~l's, it is souwl hin~ l"•'t'.) srsmll, J thiuk Lhs•(•t•pcnct~ nr !itllllt'tlsing ,,f tlutt. sewt
:! 18 .Vr. llr•lm.- W c 11111111- lu"'C ~omc uct·ru·atc ps•ouf ol' tlsut. ('lb tlzrJ TFilllr.ll•) You
BM' that l'l'r\" little bM bcf'n ~nt oub of thuru ?- \'<•t'\ lit tlc.
•
~lll . ·1 suppose it. sl1owa thnt they hnl'll bl'ou' "erv littlt' llti(·d-is that a l'n··t ?-l•'m· tho
firet i'e1v ycal'l! tlscv di·l uot pny expc.ustts, I know that. •
2::!0. How lllflll\' Ylmrb
Tls:tt I canunt toll
221. Uo '!IU kno·w tins of yout· own knowJtJtlgo r-1 kuow tltat of my uwn lmowlcdgc,
that is, 1 H11')" ofwn go into the badts, it is my tluly.
:!:!2. Do TOU roll<'ct lho 1noum· ;-X o, but the le!!!!eo in furlll('rlrnc llueh iufurrunLion 8.fJ
I would get goillg l.inek nnd [orwnrd8 nt thu time; tl1e lcsHCl' Loltl me thnt ther •lid nol pay
f~r kt•cpius; nu !ltieudnut Jmtl hie JH'isa·ipul ol!icct i.'' tendl11·iug l'ur it-bu sniel 11 din not pn:·
buu, but Ius ohJt."d was tn ll'~'·unl auy m~e t·l~e Lmn~ l '"'''''·
:?~;{ , B~ Mr·. Ifelm Who ill the Ieasel• ?-.\11·. 1•1nwlt.•l'.
:!:?1. B.v fhl! Ommnitlr·l!.-'l'ltiti lll'CIIIIIlt thnt, hns hui'll hlll11il1rl in of I"Cl"('ipts l'l·um tlw
oath111 ahow- 1hnt !11oy nro }1111 olown al .C:?tl:! 6s, ~11., il! llull cnn•ec•l uL ull ?-l rlo 11\tii know
nnythinH of thnt clirl!t~th·, 1 did Mt ps·erwn• it, it: wns prcptuud frum tlw l10oki! h\· tlw 'I'owu
Clcrk'R omecrs.
•
•
.::?:!il. Hut you know Lhnt fllt' Sl'l"('rnl years the hat!us d icl not pny r-r lm•J"\\ lhot
220. ~)uh· for till! ln~l ycnr tl10y nrc l•cgiuuing to bQ IISC'4 :-\-Cll. A ~rellL llttuty
young girls gu there tn bnlhi' iu the wnrm Weather; uot wuuy gru11 wup pt:oplc.
:.!.:!i. /Jy the Commiltr~ -At 1rhnt tlnt£l wu~ tlsis l:ulit:!S' hath11 ercetcd?-1 •'nHuot anJ
posith·oh, hut 1 tltink the lnd~es'l,ath \l:lS {'.tccted nt tho t'll\l of ll:lil.
2~s. A l what dnto Will! tho freehold purds:t;.<t•cl fvt• tls•• g('ntlcsncu';. lt:aths r I n.iuk
it wns Jlriot· tu that
.:!:!U. l'rc1-ivus i.o the PrCctiou uf the lnrlit·~· lmtllll ~ I thi11l, tlfl. I cauuot a newer
th11t of Ill) own lmnwlml~-:o.
:!:10. \\~t:I'O l.h~ lndies' lmth11 erc•t•kcl tmclor rour aupr·t'l'iRion ?-Ntl. I hE'lil'\'t' thQ
cuutrnct wns urrtlll!;etl prsur to IIIJ lu iug nppuiutul," nnd tlso ll\clies' baths \\CI'l' <·nrricd ou~
under U10 l'.•wu Glcrk.
231. Uulil'l' the thou Tmns Cll·rk: -Under tho lhcu 'l'owu Clcu·k. G . ..:\. Flrtr.lwr.
!!3.:!. Wore tlu:: gcntlC'mua'l! bnth~ l•rected uud<'r your supc.rmion 1' -Tlwy Wt~ro
crtwtcd h,· me.
!!33. Theu af (!QUI'Ilo llsnt wnll :-ubscqucnt to tlsc lnuics' L:aths?-l"cs, 1hnt wns
eubscqu£'nt to lho lndics' baths.
~84. Yuu wld us jul!t uow iho lndic,.' bath11 cust £l,7ll0 (or l'rt:lltiou r-lt v;ns nlmuL
tl1at. 1 lsnre !iC<.'tl the 3llluunt. ut' th~· ~ont s·nct.
:.!~~:;. Wlmt wns till' IUIIIIUllt of th~ \JI)IItrncl for llte gtmtl•lllll~ll·l! bnth ... r - A littlo )(JJ!s.
1 think nbuut ..Cl,,jlJ<t •H· .C l,t.iOIJ 1nta tht~t!I\HI&'llct.
!'!an. Tlwn Ihilt :t('t'OUIIt tlmt hn!S hu11n lmnded iu to 1111llli~ n1ot'11ing is simpl.1· nr1 ncctHlllt
ul' C:t(lt-ndit uro llpou tlln Indict~' l>tll hH, nu.t Jocl! not inc IIHiu :111y l'\ pruttlitu rn upon tlsc w'n tlumun's hnthl!:'-[ h:wu not I!Cl'n tllll Ul't'OWJl, Hc1 I ,],1 JtOI know how iL wall m:uh• up. [:1'/m
UCCOUt!l ll'fll hmldl'fl /0 lhr 1/'lillr..:lll 1cho ttu1p1~/t·J t/w 8amn.]
tflsie nppJics1 ] t!huuhitmy, whoJh•
tu {ho l:uul in CJIU!Stims, not tou<'hiug tilt' fl'l:l'hold.
•
237. lnu do lltll kuuw whatr the char!!e is for tbo lndics?-Xo; l thiuk n 6inj::lt: bath
ill tlli'Nlprtaco j i .Jo not J'CCCJllcct pfisitirely. :!:lS Would the ,C202 put rluwn M rccci,·cd bo tho 1otnl ~'~"'''ipts tor thl' ~bole time
l!illCc thr lndii.'S' lmtls~ hnve bi.'L'll opened ?-Tbnl [ do Ull\. knO\\ i I hL• 'l'own C'Jcrlr's o!lh·ers
could tl.!li llu1t. Tlse &'<JI'Ctpls do uot l'umo throu!!'h my luuulH, hut fr·om mv ~oit1g lo!ll'k and
forw~·ilt~, nud In~· kllfiW!t-rlgC' of the builtlingt<. ruul the war it ia palrouiscU: I ;;houhleupposc
that 111 tlw nuwuut.
:!3:1. \\'lmt i11 tile total 11.10111111t (tf moot~y puf, 1lowu i.hcrt' ns l'f'l.'eht!tl 011 nec·ouui of tltu
lndii!s' hnf h~. ll~SIIIllin~ th:1l ltt apply le• thtl liLdic•l./ Ltuthl! ouly ?-'Plsu tutal••l~t:Oipil!1 £2ll2.
:!HI. llut J rumu th11 lcJIAlt·ccdpls •>11 acco11nt of tltu prnpl•J•ly ?-The total is J!l,'i20,
multhcn £l,lli(i iu J':tl\':l, Juakiu~ £!.!,80ii.
2 n Whnl is lltll totnl £'Xf'Ctltlitun· ?-It j,. put ,Jnwn here :t8 £:.!,6fll.
!! 12. What pro tit doca thnt lcaTc ?-That ll'an:s about £!!00 nnd n fow shillings.
2~!1. Js 1111t rl gircn there ?-~u.
211 :Sn, tnkiu~ tlsc nc:coullt to rcpresCJII the whole iur.ome upon tl1c one lumciRnd
tltu wholo oxpc.11dituro t1pon tho othcr during tho wbolo tune till' lndics' bnths Jm,·o J,.•cn in
1
r
12
exietenee, it ahowl! a profit to the Oouncil of £200, you BAy?-Y,l!l, if you do llllt take into
account the question of interest, it appears so from this; but I luwc had nothing to do with
the preparation of thia nccouut at all.
2·l5. B,l/ ilu~ ('ommiltee.-Dc> you know when thll gentlemen's bo.thl! WCI'fl erected?I think the present gontlcmen'a hu.tl1s luwo bl>ell openetl!lbout se,·cn yc1lra .
246. From now ?-I have brought duwu IIOUill papt!rll with rne which I hnrc not here;
I ha.\'e the JllatiB of thu baths, whit'la 1\re dated; 1 eannot say positi\·ely, but I think it is about
eeven yeal"!l siuce lhc gentlemen's baths were opened.
:Hi. Do ~· ou kno,,· when the lAnd, upon which the gentlemen's baths arc built, waa
purrhat~t~d r - "Xc>: I do not know of my own knowledge.
:.! lS. Was it purrhMed imrnediatdv bcforu the bath~< wero huilt, or hnd the Council
po81ieatlion of i~ snm': time hefo,rnl'- I ll€llitwc tl~e Gounc~il bought the propt•rty prior to my
Bd\'ellt to the l.ouuctl nt all, prwr to August, lStl : t hero were baths upon t hu lallll then.
,
:!49. J'hl\t tht•)' bought r- YCtl; I hey Were pullcu II.WU)',II.Dd these JlCW OIICS plnced thcrO
mstcnd.
:!;ill. l>oi you know tho object of the Council in buyinl.t the land upon which the
gentll'lllt'n'll hatha ure now ?- No; I do not know the object.
25 l. Supposing thl.! Counc·il hncl nut lNUil'tl these fronlagt•ll, would thoy hn.vc required
to buy the lnnd upon which the gentlemen's bathe nrc?-1 do not know.
25~. It is only n matter Cif <•pinion, you know, what !!puce they require for baths?I know there Wl\8 a ladies' .swimming hnth thcr£', and as they leASed tho land, there would not
have been room l'or J.{Cntlemen'a awiuuning baths.
253. 1 do not oxn•~tly understand you. J BBy, W(•ulcl the Gouuril have ha•l to buy lnncl
if flhoy hud used the l<•a.Hcbnld for the purposes of both bath!!, iiJSicl\11 of lcn5ill!{ it to n private
indi\·iclunl ?-No, I think not.
:.m;&.. There wns plenty of room for both ladies' an•l gontlemen' s baths P-Upon the
ground, prior to the lc.111iug?
255. l t'B r-1~C81 plenty.
!!5H, By .Mr. /Jr.lm.-But. in ·ortlr.r to ha\·e l•oth tbo ~cntlemen's bntlus and the 1Adiot1'
bnthl! upon the J'tlllOri'Lld piece of h~n•l, there would hnvc heon n break i.u tht• npponrnuce of the
t~lwn, woultl the rH not--a •lead wall or 11omcthing P- ¥ea; the uppenrnnce is ccrtainh· much
better ns it is, in m\· opinion, 11.8 n hueincl!s frontngc. IL ia better tlmt businesec11 slu)ultl ho
upon tht; front, nnd' tho bntlts in the rear•
.Furtbct· crosa-c.xamiuerl by Mr. Mclni!Jrt'.
:!ii7, J\ 11 tu the nppcnratWt!, is it. not" p0118iblc thnt a frontnge tu n. bnth 111ight. be maclll
decent nt n little c:\pcnsc. Tl.cro is uo Ul·t.-essily fnr 11 bllwk wnll if tho gt•ut lumen':; b:~tlt11
had been l'rcctccl up•m the laud grtmiL•u by the Government. for tl10 erection uf oaths P-Ye:~,
tl ia <JUitc JIOBHiblc•
.llr. Mc.lni!Jrt1 n.~~ke•l the Clmirmau tu ns k the \Vi tnes.~ t!mJ••orniug the it Pill Ji1r pla.ll:!
mul 1 hn item of lnw churgc!'! in the statomont of bath corner l\Ct'olUllts expoud i tut·•~. liS plans
wen•. •lmwu by tlw 'l'own Ulork but wcw eni•l ttJ cost; ,£1~"'• and tlac l:tw charges amounted to
the lnr!.;C t~on." n[ £15!i 7s.
~,j-., 11,1/ tl•tJ Oltoirrmm (Ill lltt'! 11"iln~.r•).- Do ~·nu know ?-Nn, J tlo uot know to my
own kuo\\·Jc,J~tl. I should only 1111 pposo that pnrt of 1hnt l'xpeudtturo WII.B ftlr :L clt'rk of work11
thllt was kept on the work:: at tlm time the baths were being built.
·•t'
The Willlt'll tcitlulrt'U'.
'J'J,e Clt~~it-man intimntetl to j}(,·. ffelm tlanl the Commiltce desired thnt to-morrow somo
light should he tl1rown upon the nctiun of tlac Council of' tho City uf Sandhurst in leasing
land that wa;; onlv rcsen·ed for tlw purpose o£ hnt Ias, ~cuing rents from the les.•ecs and
spending n !r\' JiLtfo upon the bar hs; nl~o p:ll'ticuiArs of the money 11peut aud clear proof
thereof; nlso at~t:umtc proof' ol' thu nulUUllt rccch·ctl from the ladies' lmthtl including tho
chnrgos for admission nnd tho totul roc·eipls nn•l the precille sum reccin•tl by till' Cuunt'ilnt1
rent t'rom tbo leased prcmieea; also (us tlult mi!{ht come in inferentiallY) the nmount Rpcut
upon the freehohl for tl10 gentlemen'" lu't ha, and encJuircd wbt•thcr M.r. 11elm put it as an
answer for the misuse oft he leased latJti that the Council had apj1ropriated some of the money
rccci\'eu for the l(!llllc•l land tn tne t•rection of the bath upon tlao frcl.'iwld land.
Jh·. Helm.-Yes, we do. I may mention thnt thll first l'CtjUil'itiou of tbc Committee
will bcJ H!l')' cliUicult to obtain. ~ut a ~tingle ~~uu1willur is IIIIW' n t'tnmdllor who was a
councillor iu HJ71, cXC('pt the l'l•titi!JIH'J', antll l'llll hnrdly n:,;k him the •JUt·~tiou.
13
.Mr• .Mcllll,l(rr,-lh.' i11 :not n t•onucillor now. May I nltlO :lsk you, ~lr. Ohairm:m, to
,,r lht• Bill to he prepared with full e\·iJeut•c ns to tlm items in the
a.sk the Promoterll
statement of DOt:OlllliJ!,
:J.'he Chairman -\cl!,
\\1'
woultllike nccnratc proC>f, which to-Jn,· we hn\O uot J!lll.
Mr. Mclnlyre.-.~\ lsu nil tho rntcs recch·ea from tho leasehold propcrt).
The Ohair'uwn.- YC>S, w<: might have that too.
.AdJourned to 7'hum{oy nf'x/nt r./rr:en Q'cloc!.:.
14
}!n.
)ir. Altc.lcr:>lHJ,
l\:[r
Tltt C'ounsel nud
W mX•l~,
Lnn~don,
p:u:~ies
in thl· Chair;
1[ r. ::\[irams,
111r. Walke1·.
\rere etllleu in.
WilliauJ Dixon O:unpbell Dcnovnu (Town Clerk or the it.y u£ 'andlmr;;t), LLgum called, aud
fu1·ther examined.
259. By .1111·. Brlm.-You p1·ocluce certain advertisemen(R ini!I'J'tcll iu the • IUJ\lhurst
uewspnporK h> the Council with a rit>W to Jetting tlw Bnlh H<·l>CI'\"C r-Y Cii.-[TI~t· &am" 11Jer6
rrml, a11tl urtr as foltou•s.]-" Borough of • anclhurst. l'eudors \\ill hl• l'('l' •ivt'd up Io uoou of
Friday noxt, for occupul-iou of llpltro gr01LUd of ba.Lb reserve. fronf.in~ I 'hnriug '•·oss nnu
)litdJCII-d rN•L 'l'he Killdc fl'llutw•et! arc 16~ feot, on which t~hopll mu~t hl' t•t'< I'IE'U in :u:c'urtJn.nro wilh drawiog~ pr 'p!lrcil by 'l'nwn Sun·eyor, at nu u::1lin1atcd co~t nf £;j01J wu:h, to be held
IJy teuJ\•t·u· lot· fifteen ye:.LI"., .mrl tht:n •·orcrtiug to t he Coq10ration -UEORGE Av-&n.Y
l<'I,EToTn;u, Towu 'lerk. 'l'uwu linll. 20th May, t87l."
2<i0. Do you low" on whnt dttle 1 ho~:~c wnre in!1cl'lecl F-I l'lllltltll say. Tt W:tl' long
bcfot·c• m,. i iute.
21h. Do yon prod ne(· the! miuut.o-buok of lhe Cotwcil w-itl1 :t minute of ~nd July,
1 '71 ?-Yt::~'.-[Tllt' same waR produced.]
262. At thnt time who wus Mayor P-Dr BoyJ.
20:t By the Oommiftl!'e.-'Vill you rend thnt minute?-" Reports n!n.c.l of ]!'irumce aud
f1encmd Cmll'tlittee, ~lay :!Gtb, recommcndiltg ncceptnnl~e of temllw, D. }iuhrhill, work in
]~auuermnn-struot, at £l.S 10 ., uml .Mr. ;rnmes ::\Ioore'a teude.1· for occupancy ot' !lpare !.and n.t
t hu hndt cortwr, to c.x}JCJHI u pwn•·J>~ of £»,UOU in buildings reyr.rting to tl•u orporation. n.ny pay
£150 Pl'r annum for fifteen yc:l1':,, mHl £300 per o.nuum after if occUllaUl:f cxlentled ai::r years
l'ut·tlwr; null 'ouncillm· ~lclntyru rnoYcd, nnc.l ConnC!illor Vuhland HCl'Ondt!il, t.ho ndoptiou of
rt>port n. rentl."
26J. 8.11 Mr. llrlm.-You sny you are not nwnre on whnt elate the athertisements Wl'I'e
inscrl~cl r-I lUll uot:.
26:J. Ofcourrw the 21th Mny i:~ t.hc· Qu<:en's Bh·llHl•~y. au.J n holi<ln.>r-Tcs.
:!011. '\VC' m tlltn•e holiclny!l 011 tho 251 h nnd tho 2tlth for the rarrs :0-1 <llll nol awa.J·e.
[TI11 learned Ouunsd pro.!ucl'tl a11rt 1'r.ml tft, jnllowiug ld!t'r from :Jlr. ..Jfoore.l
'' :-lnmlhur::~t., 2!lrtl :\fny, l!-.71. l\femo. fot• ~fnyo•· nntl Jl<>rnugh 'ontll'il, i"andln.u·tlt.
Genilemen-ln rep]~· lo ynur ndt·t>rtiscmt>nl I lit•g l.o ulli•t· nu aunual t'Pllllll of £lu0 for the
right to ucNl}'Y ihc lmt h cornet· from the 1st. J nmwry 11cxt. for flt'h•eu ) e.'ll'fl, will! r·i;.:ht of
t·~uewal for ,ix ,r{'nrs longer. l :un prepnretl to •reel. on the. aitlland. hnildint: iu accordance
wilh the pinnA nuJ spcr•i!ic.nl.i<>nl! now lying Jtl. tl.o 'l'owu Unll, or tu agrt•t> to m~h; llct•ntioua
therein n 11lll}' ho ngr•'crl tu hy t lw Conucil, :mu tu cxpNIU l hor'llll :l sum .,f nt lcu:-t £5.000.
the wbolc of t.hu (lJ'upt·rty to tO\'< rl to tho 'mmcil 1H1 tlm expiry of 111.'- tt'l'ru of Ot'!'II(IUUcy
Thr hud l1~ lougiug tu the 'ouucil auJ extcnc.ling Imm tlttl lmtlt t'\ll'llc·r tu lwt h lulll 1<1 be
iuclut.lt·tl in 1hi otlilr. nu.! tl•c ri~ht tn erect ouo ~tote\ huilclings thcreo.tl, u tlu; pt'C!!OIIl lcmw~
e:tpire.-1 mn, &c:., ,J :"ltr.s :\Toom:."
•
~tji, B,l/ .l[r. llr"lm (to t/11~ Willlt8k) .-lla¥e you hcennb1c lo liu<l any pocificutioua !'or
the lmilclin~~ rr·ti.:rrcJ. t·n i.t1 the adn~rtisctucnL•?-. T have Lot ; J have lonl<('tl fm: them.
20!:1. Have ynu hcl'll able lo finrlnny p!JuJ r-t'cs j thoro WIW the original plan prouuccrl
al Lhe last mcoting of ihc Committee.
26!}. That. is the ouly Jllan ynu ba-re discovered ?-Yos; whn.twc l'nll ihc" Ol'ig"in:tl plnu."
270. By .11Ir. Ml'lllf,IJre.-ITow clo yo11 know thnt those nro the <•nly Rkotches the
Council hMc h:tcl in Uwir pos::;ession ?-Of course I cnn ouly spe:Lk from hear:!lty. We h:we
senrclwtl the whole ollicc an1l hnvt' disc·on•rPd no otlu~r plnnll there.
271. A re the )ll'f'tSent builclin~s erected iu accordtuwe with this plan-[ltnndillg same to
wilnt•sa] r-I cnnuot ~ay of my own kuo\\Jedge.
16
2S2. You are no~ aware either whctl1er the\' had during the time yo u were no t To wn
Clerk F-No.
•
2!:iil There iH 11 proviRo at the eud of thi11 agreamont. which Ha VH : - '· Proviilll<l nlwn~'fi,
and it is hereby furthur 1\j,'l'eod that if tlw ~<aid Jamaa BoHl. his t•x c ~t;.ut.ort<, ILrlmin it~Lratnr·a, or
a.asi~ts, shall gh·c ono 1nunth'11 notice in writiug, previous io thu l!~pimtion of the Raid term,
to the said City Cou111~il, their successors 1\ltd n.Kaigus, of his or t,hoir dl!l!ire 1'01· an c~xtouH i on
of the said term for ·tht' further period of six )"l'!'rs, the Rai.t City Council, thdr Blll'<~t:llsOI'ft or
uaigu11, shall and 'nil give unto the said James Boyd, his I'.XCcutors, administratonJ. or usaigns,
an agreement in writing to that effect, the said James Bayd, his oxecuto rR, administrators, ot·
assigns, p:Lying the said City Council, their succ:cssortl or assigns, for the said further period
of' six years, a rent. of two hundred and twenty po unds ; the sllitl n(Precment to contain similar
CO\·cu:mts, dnusos, nnd conditions 118 are contained heroin.'' 'lfhl'reforc. the Council havo
ratific,l thnt. ::!uppose the buildiuge were WlBuit.ablo. it rLcccptcd that agreement ?-1'hu
UoundlluL\'e acr.'l ptt~el tlml ngreemont.
~S4. By tluJ <hmmitfr~.-You come lterl.!, I rmppO~l·. prepared to represent thl· \ it•\\'8
tlto Coum·il ?-Withiu 111y power.
:!~5. Ara JOU in IIJIOSition tu givt\ the Uouuuittl'O an~· tlxplrmlltiuu a.s to the 1wtiun of
the Council, imuacdintoly after th(• laud wBM rescr\'od for a public purpose, iu letiing it for 1t
privati! )HU'p<>Sc ?- 1 am not.
2!:!ti. ~Jnn yuu inform the Gommittce whothor uny application has been made to t.be
Governm~ut for tL lcDIIC .,r this land-for a title or lonae !'-'l'hcro hllll been.
2~7. \\'lum ?- I should ha,·o to rofer to dates. [ kn uw that such a thing hns boou
done. llf'.r(! ia n letter ahuut it-~lwntlin!J th~ following lettn- to tlw C'hmrman]- ·• OOicl' of
Land!' n11d Sun·cy, )lclbuurru·, Au~ust; 24th, bi 1. S ir,- By direction of t.h(: llouornuln the
Umnmi,sioncr of ( ' ru\1 11 [~mus nud Sur1·ev, I lu~vc thu horwr to infllfm vou, in roply to 1' uur
applica uuu nt thu1 office to-dny, on bohnlf
the City Council of ~tuulhair.st. thnt i nstru.•iions
hn,·e been issut.'<i f ur t he prcpnrutiou of the Crown ~rnnt of the laud rese rved ns n site f or
public bnths in that city.-1 hn\'e the houor to bo, sir, ~·our most obed ient sun·nn t. ($ ignoo)
A. :Monn.lu.Assistnut Commissioner of L:mds and Sun-e\'. RonEn:r Bunnons. l<l~q , M . l •.A.,
Parlinlllullt llouac.''
•
2hS. Thi" is F"r hnth11 ?-We hntl the rel'un-n.tion, whit•h 1 put in ou 'fnl'.sday.
2l\tJ. Wn11 tlll're nn npl'lit::uiuu m:ule lmlit~·c tho dnte nf this letter of :Bth August, l i l,
m:ulo by thl: C:uunciluf ~an<lmr.. t, fort\ Urowu gnuaL?- J tlu 1101! kuuw.
~HO. Am you in a positiou tu give p:u·ticulRN! ot' ttll'cnrliturc a~ to Lhis lnUtl P- 1 1\111
not tho Act·ountant,
1'/,t! W1 tm•u tt:itluirt:tc.
or
of
];:dwar<l Gnrlied, cnllcd.-ExnmuJCd by Jlr. flt:lm .
2!H. 'iou were, in 1870, a rhornist nnd druggist in Sandburst ?-Yes.
:!9:!. ¥ ou aro now a settlor in tbo noigbbourhood of Kcrnng ?-Yes.
2!>a. You were :L momhor of tho 'l'owu CoUllcil in 1871 ?-1 WIUI.
l!SH. l>o you remetnbor the reservation of land for bnt h tJUrposcs ?-Y cs.
2U.i. At thnt time \VIlli Dr. nuyli ·~ member of Lho 0otlliCil ?-¥Cl!.
2!H.i. l\[ r. ,.,le I utyro ?- YCA ; lhl• whole numb~r of l'uuuc:illm·s consisting of uinll.
29i. D11 you rmnembur the tact of the questil)n of llllihliug nu the frontage to the
reserve heiug woo led in the Cuundl ?-¥c.;.
29~. Do you remember wht) adrocateJ the building of houses ou those fronlapes,
particularly ?-The i\layor-Doctor Boyd. Councillor Mclntyre was a -rory active member,
and prominent in the m.'lttcr.
299. Can YOU BllY 'vho was tho first person who mooted the subject ?-No; I would
not like to Answer tho question aa to the indindua.l, because it sprang up in the Oouucil.
:.JOO. Do you remember whnt was the renaou given 'by tho persons who first moolctl the
queaticm
lmilclin!-t Oil thia lnutl P-Tho reason giv<·n 1\ll<lt~~~t·uptt•U by the Council WIIB, tlll\t
i£ the lmths buihliug wa~ put ou tho most prominent sito uf t.lw city, it WIN! thoughl iL wouhl
be an un~ighlly Ull<'. 'rhere W!\11 lt uaLh on land ndjoiuinJ{, ttllli Lhu itlea. WIW, if UmL could be
purchal!clluud utilised, thu coruer might Lo built upon nntl l1aVtl a better class ut' lmildiugH,
anJ at the Bllllle time ) ·ield sotne profit for the beuctit of the rntnpaycrs.
301. At thaL hme, when that WA8 first mooted, tho lnud whic'h we call tlao freehold
land hnd not been }lUrebased from l>octor Atk.inaou ?__;Not nt tho fir:>t. .Aa fnr an I recollect,
one idea gtu-c rise to another.
30~. That i~. tho idea of spending money on the baths corner raised tho .idea of
purclll\sing D odor Atkinaon'a baths ?-Yea.
or
17
aoa.
wl\8
1Jitl t.his itloa, whil:h you say was mooted in the Council, contiuun long before it
carri1•d out ?-1 t WIU! not long before action WIUI taken.
ao t Did you nd\'ocatc it P-I llid not.
SOS. Did you oppose it ?-I did.
.
, .
80G On what grounds ?-Bcenuso I couaJdered the mtereats of tho ratepayers were
not eufficicntlv considered in the project-that is, when the Jotting came on. But about the
baths, l ahmys ~oncC'ived the ideA thnt we should not jeopardise the pol!lcasion of the hmd by
not complvin~ with the conditions for which it wl\8 rcser,·ed.
sui. Wns thcronny other rcnson when the IJUCstion of lcttin~ cnrn111.tll thnt suggested
itaclf to your mind P-lll\\·e you come now to the puiut \\}ten 1\tlvorltscmf:'nls nppcarcJ clllling
for offers?
808. YesP-Ycs. I oppol!cd it on the grounds that the l)tler wllfl a ridiculous one.
FAr more migltt havo been ~ot far it. j'hc oft'cr cmbrnced more t hnn tho ud\·ortisement
stated. An olfcr "·as mndc by .lnmcs Moore, nml another goutlomnu mndo an ofi·cr for ono
allotment ; I think that offer WllB £60.
809. Is thnt. the ofl'l.ll'-[handing a papt!t' to t/,n witnr.11] P- Yea ; thnt is the ofi6r-(titl
1amc tl'al rrad nntl i11 tu follorrr]-" Tn tlta 1tfnyor nn•l Councillort1 ol' tlte Borough of
Sanlllmrat. I hereby tctufc.r !'or No. •.l frontage of sixteen fc(1t 111111 n hnlf of the spare
grouml of bath rcl•or,·c froutiug Chn,.iug Crol<s, on which to erect a shop in ttt:l'Ordancc witl1
drnwiitgs prepared by the Tl!Wll SuneJot·, nt .nn estimated cost of £500, to be held hy me for
fifteen ycnrs, aml Uten Tc\·crt to tll(! Corporntlon oftlto Borough of Sandhul'8t, and 1 tender to
pay t.he amutnli'Cllt of £00 stcrliug for the snid plot, No. 4, free from nll dr.ducliOill! during
tltc said tcrrn offificon ycllrii.-Your" (Signed} Am>REW Cn~"DUPF."
810. Ytm any you did nnt •·onsider the intcrcata of the mtcpnyc.rs were sufficiently
Cottsidorod; wn11 thcr<l :UIJ other rC>nHOn ?-That offer of ~I r. 1\foore's embraced the whole land.
311. Ilnd yl)u uny other rcnsou ?-I lteld certain con\'ictions with otlwr pel'lions.
1'1tc Oommiltte dr.liberated.
Th~ OJwirmnn (to I he ll'tlt'nr.J (~unrel). -The Committee wish to tell you thnt the first
question wo lun·e t(l Con5ider is the 1itle of tbe Council of SandhurBt to iCIUie tltis land to any
one nt nll.
Mr. Jlelm.-I ndmit nt onec it is 'vithout llDY warmnt of lnw
Croas-cxnmined hy Mr. Mclnty,·e.
312. r 011 MY you were, iu 18i0, 8 cbemist and druggist ?-I WM.
313. lu wlmt portion of S:mdhuret P-In lloward l'Jacc. situntcd nt tltc ~tern end
of the Mall.
814. At what end of the Mnll u.rc those buildings erected P-Tlte west ; the
furthest eud
3Hi Your property is nt n 1·onsidora11lc diRtnnl~l· P-Ahout n. <ttlnr·lt•r of' n rnilo.
316. 'J'herc nro four streets bot Wt·cn ?-'Ve cn.u hcnr poop le "IJI'nking almost from one
place to tho ollwr.
a17 Is tlu1t akctch rorrcct-[ltnlltling a paprr /o fl,, rci/nt>s•] ?-Yt>.ll.
318. You sny you wcJ'fl oppos('d to the building of the blltl1e ?-Not of the baths. 1
wu oppO!!Cd to tlw o:trur ftoru Mr. Moore.
3l!l. Were you oppo~~ed to the erection of the buildings ?-l voted ngninst it.
320. Do you think the i!rcclion uf tl1e buildings improf'ed your property P-I do, You
cnnnot impro,·c ono portim1 of Ihu town witl1out benefiting the other.
321. Wero) 1111 iu the Cou11dl nl thu time there wns an ngitntion tu cut n road through
tlus rCI!Cr\"11 [poillli"!l to u 1kctch] ?-Ye11.
82~. 11itl you nch·o,•ntc tlu~t P-I •lit!, because it was orjginally mo.rkcd out nnd intended
in the rnrly Jnyll-in 1854<.
328. '.rltia plll'k is n leading feature of Snndhurst?-Ycs, it is.
324. It is grcnlly used by the citi7.Clli' ?-Yes.
325 Is thnt u true plan of lhc road you proposed to cut tl1rough lho roservc [Aanding
th~ witnt'.BI] P-l·es.
:Ln~ C"llmailln: objected to tltis line of et"idence.
Mr. ~JJclntyrn was heard in reply to the ohjcdion.
''plan to
320. Mr. Mclnlyr~ (lo tllil 11-'itneu).-You say you opposed tl1c erection of thoee
buildings bccaul!o the interests of the ratepayers !ere not aufficicntlr. considered ?-res.
327. You tltought the grouud was being f_,'lren away for too httle money P-Yea.
18
32 . Is that your present opinion ?-Decidt>dly.
329. Although the amount proposed to be spent was £5,000 ?-Th~t wna what
1 opposed
330. Mr. Moore says :- 11 I nm prepared to erect on the ~:tit! ln.nd buildings in
accordance with the plo.na antl apeciBt•ations now lying nt the Town Hall, or to ntrree to such
alterations therein as mny be ugr~ed to by the Council, ttnd tn expend thcreon ~ Rtun of at
leat~t £5,000." Do you Utinlc the present buildings 'vere erected for £5,000 ?-I llhould not
think the present building cost ihnt.
831. WoulJ. you like to put them up for Lbat ?-That i~ my opinion; I give it to you
honestly. 1 watched the building from the Yery foundatiOIJ, and I h:tYC rur 0\Tll opinion.
aa2. Were YOU in the Council at the time this f\gTPemenl Wll!\ made in l 73 ?-I
retired iu .Tune. r'wn11 u. member in :i\1ay.
333. Tills ngrP.emt'nt is ~<igned ou tl1e 3rd lUny, 1 73, hy Lhr·>e Councillon. on behalf of
the whole Council. The Cot·pm·nlion have rntilicd the ghing, for tl1is wretched building,
£ L6,800. Do you not think it would be more nllvnnta~eoul! fur the wlwle ground to be built
ou th:UI oue litL1a coruer ?-Certainly ; but my idea wns nn ornnmm1tn1 hath buildinq-.
33·'L. Why did you not object to the Council r·nti(viug the tmns1er from ,l ruut·H 1\toore
to Dr. Boyal-did you object P-I.ct me ask you to bear· in mintl that I left Snndlmt•st in. 1 '73,
and 1 am t:tken rathet• by ~urpri:.e in being aununouec.l hl:l'C.
335. Diu you oppose it?-1 dill, conaislently.
336. Will you rend that reAolution-[lmnding a boo!.· to tlu.• rrihu•.M] ?-'·Tit<' senl of
the Council was ordorcd to he allh:ed to len.se nod ll~re£>ment of bath cm·m••· lands. Votes
for-The 1\In_vo•·. Councillors Aspinall, Vtlblrtncl, A.llingh:un, Holmm1 and Buckloy; n~ainat­
Oouucillnrs t'1lnl'k, IT altum an cl Gnr~£>d."
HH7. You any you agreed loo. certuin offer CJf Cnrnduff'::~ ?-I alo nut.
33 . By the Oommiff~I'.-The Council were nwnr<.· they lmu nu l<!g'.tl right to lease this
land?-'lcs.
339. Did the.v take nny Atcps 1;o finn out from tll Cioi·Prlllul.mt?-Eil'orts were made
to get 11 title to tbe lnuJ., ll.lld some applwatiou wa madl• 1u th • GoYernrn(.>nt nf the time,
o.~:~king if the condition!! could bo slightly n.ltcred, a nu f Imy IH:t·e nlirretl to "public
couveuiL·ncc."
T.hn.t was done hr n !!Ubt:H~qt1e11t Gautff'. notice of 2ht .Tuls, l 71 ?-Tc~<
lh:1.l done nt the instnn1~t> of the Council P-It "n~.
a-.1::!. With ibc object nl' l•oahliog thcu1 to lenne ?-Well, I conltl not eay. 'l~e idea
wa:-;, t l111t i l wll..'l UC!Iirnbll' to gC'\ n gootl title to the Inn cL
!HH. Do you lmow nf uny c~uhst·qneni enl11rgc:mcn· of lht• powers of lho C'Ciuncil gi1•en
hy t !.w Gm erorucut r-N othiug beyond that.
8-l!. But the Council mnde eil'orts to get llre Gove•·oment. to .aulhol'ise them to lens<>
this land ?-T I.Jeliero tltl'V' did after I left.
:345. Do you lmo,i· 11 a fact. ?-I could not stn.te ns ll fuc1 uu my owu lruuwll•<lgc.
3-tfi. Uitl they while you were a member P-No; not to lease, but to get n t{ood title.
lt Wll:S <'Onsidaretl :1 very vnlu:lbJe properLy, nnd it Wll11 aJmc>!ll n lllll tO put n v:\Lh OU ibnt
curnar·, anti my ialcn wns to hnn the bath a little further buck, and orcupy tho t'rout with 11
little rlec<mt street nrchitcchu·e.
·
ll.ti. Ho tho intention of the Council from the first wns nnt to cart] out the l'l'"Cl'\' l~lirm
merely for bt1tb purpose!! ?-It. harl bt'eu set npal'L for bath purposes hcfol'e hciag- ~nz!'ttc·•l.
It wns a]w;ty. the idea ((J Uf'O it fOI' bath puq>oses.
:lJ'S Hui nfter you gnt. the r·eservnlion the Council ent t·taincJ tbo ith:a of lt>asing it?
3~0.
:3ll.
Wa~<
-'J'h ' 1113jOI'it;y.
a. w.
The minoritv objct·ttotl ?-The minority ol1jee.tetl.
to
;{;3U. You . cem
SllY th:t1 th(.>re wn.s sorne n.lterntion in tho Gazette notico 11~< lo tin
pur·po~u for which the l:tnd ,"v:t to l.Je u11ed \'-I hn.ve alwuya untlcr~Stoou thnt a Inter Gazclf,.
notice luttl the addilion:tl worJ.s
:~5 L. [t was only nn imprc11sion.
Wll.l<
O\Vlllg
to the action of' lire Council, that I hi nltcl'll!inn
mndc ?-Yes.
:3:l2. YotL were under the impression, when you first gnve your· evitleuce, Lhn.t
only " for lln.th purposes " ?-Yes.
353. Are you still of opiuion thnt, througl1 the efforts o£ tbe Council,
mucle in the plll'a.seology ?-I wus unde-r that impre!lsion. I am not now.
Phc· Wiine&B witluii'Ct/J.
i~ said
1111 nlt~:t•n.tion wa11
19
Mn.urit·l' l\lornn. c.allcd.-lliamiucu by Jlfr. li.elm.
3:i•t JOU luwo been tl Tu~n Councillor of the Uitv of Sa1Hlhurst r-1 hnvc.
355. W ert\ w•u !\Town Coundllor at the time
letting the ontlt corum·P-Yes, I
of
wns, IUul (opposec!" it.
35fl. After tl1c Jotting, do \'Ou .rememht'r hn,·ing any I'Otnmuni•·ntion with nny Minister
or tl10 hcnd or tlu• Government?:._ We hnd heforc-in ISiO-witb tbo }liuister of Lands,
Mr. ~rncpht!r~on.
357. I suppose you rnu,:i rccolled that this jtlnro bns nlwnys bcl'll kuown IL~ 1he lmtbl!
corner ?-l'rct t) well.
S!iS. WnR tl1o idea of }un·ing bath!:~ tllCre in oxi:~tcn~ in tho mincls of the TOI\11
C(luncillors for tLo time ln'jng heforc tho tempol'llry resca-vu.t:ion ?- Yr:s, it wns.
ii!iO. Tlwr hntl tluti i.lca. ?-1 wns not in tho Tmm Couudl bcrot'\l the tmnpornry
rct!tll'l'llliun. l joilwtl in 18t:fl.
:!GO Yl)u t~nitl hoforo 1he tompornry r<'~('t'\':tliou you hnd an iut(lr\ iow witl1 the 1\IinitlttJt'
of Ln111ls r -Y ea, in ISilJ-thnf wna in ?llnv, 1R70.
!lfil. UmlP-r \\hntl!irc·umRinllt'Cstliu -i·onluwe :m inlc•·rio\1' "ith 1l10~1iui~1orol' J,nuclsr11he Cit~· Oonucil hncl uJn.clu nrrnn~euwllt!l'to pua·l·ha!>P the P •'ll)llll'ty f'l'•llll lhll'l:tll' Atkinson
Jll•lt to thu Lu~llta, 1111cl it WRil •·nmourcc.l nbvut tlutt lho Council intel~tlc•tl to lcn~:~c the lmth
c:ornor. A number cl thn p1'opcrly-ownel'8 unu haclespcoplo c)IJjP~:tud tn the t'•)l'IICI' I.Jcing
lel\8ocl !'or thnt pnrpt~fl'-lilr shop•-nurl the J'I'Hilh wus, n rntnnnrittl '\M Jll'('(>nrNl to tho
M ini!ller or Lnn.ls by n numl•m· of tho propert~-I)WIICI'B :Jilrl tradCS(){JOple, pa·ot('!ltlllg ngn[lll)i;
the C<luJwil lwiug nil owed tc• lc·11t~e I he ~r<>perty knnwn M the bntll c•or·uc1·.
!lli:.!. E,q iltc Commiltl'n,-Wns thnt dopubtillll tlto tctmh of 11 m1~hng in l:inndlmrst ?Nn, it· wnB just ~ho mntlc1· t:tkeu up by Lhc citizens. 'fhoy hod n mcmodul propnrcd nud
tnkcn rountl for H•qnat:ut·e.
HS.'l IJ!I ..:lfr. lldDI.- You c~etcd not n' n Couu1•illor, hut W! 11 prh·nto citil<!ll f-1 cs, n
mndownor.
BG-1. "'hen you got ilown to thl' office of the ?1Iiuit~tcr uf T,nnds, whnt hnppcucd ?-W o
found n dt•pntatiuu from tlw C'uuueil, aml tbo m:~ttcr of the memorinl Wll!l lli'OUl:hL !Jcroro the
Minister nntl cliscuKst•d for nnd :u:ninst.
HIIG. ln l8i0 then the MJui•tcr of lht> da'' wns n\\'1\rc t•f the intc nlion of tll!1 Council
to l'rl~ct alaops tlaorc ?- y Cll. By Ull':lll8 •Jf our reprP.scnl.ntinnl! tho .l\lmilltCl' told the joint
deputAtions thnt he hnd looked thriJugh the Act10 nn.t •·mdd fiud uothin~ to justify tl1c Council
in erecting sltops on the lnnd. 'l'hc dt•putntion fn>m thP C'"mn• iluslwd tlw Mirustl'r \1 ht.Jthcr
the gxehrutgo would cc•mu w itl1in i.hc> mcoui11~ of" other puhli.: ·~ull\ cnirtll"t'll '' 'fho '\fiuurlcr
:slntod hewn no11 ihPrc to interpret thc> lnw, l•nt to nt!mauir.ll'l' tho J.anda DClj''lrtuH•ut TJ,o
citizc.us' ~(llnntiLtcc, tltankiug tho ~liuist:cr, withdrml"', ns 1lwy <'ousiclcrl'ol tlw~ wd ,_;ol nllllwy
went t!uwn li;r.
[1'hl': follalriil(; 111tf1110. ln1 ltlr. TT'id.~lab, alf(le/wcl to con't'Rpom{t."IICII witl1 Urfltl'n lAnd#
Dt•pwrtmcnt, wa• t't:tui.]-'' 1 hirrc sc:cm 1\f r ~utlrerlnaarl. l 'o1·mntwntl) n'qt•l'l'u for bath site,
nnJ i:<~ut· ~'l'll tll liw 111\111(1 put·post·~. By order, ( L ,\ , \\' .\LSl'.\ 11. i :~ji'd."
:j(j{j, Uo you ltnppou tH !wow how it wall j,J.al ilrnL L'l'0\111 grnlll WI\S IIC\'CI' ilillllCll r -1
do
m1·~.
f'rol!o·l'~lltllined
by ..lfr. M t•lnl,urt!,
:101. You trny thi11 1111111 wtul toutpornl'iir J'P~N·1uJ :!till• .\Iay, lbiO? J IJI;"l .. ·1·o that
was tllu rlate. I do nof k11ow w!.ert it wns pl'l'nt:uwntly rt!S('l'\'t!•l.
36S. Wlwu WIIH !ltt• lc:uw graul.•tlto tho~e lt;s!U't'!l ~- 1 ••nnnot tdllh·· .htu.
3(Jfl WaH it while• it wns turupornrily l'Cl'cr,·ctl ?-1'\o. 1 bdiul'l' 11 hilc it ''ns pcrmnneutlv rotmncol.
• 870. Was tho imule•· of ) Jr..Jmnes ?l luore neccJttca '~hilo the laud wns tnUIJIOI'tll"ily
rCBCl'l cd !--I cuuld not any.
I 1w;ulil not be certain.
371. l"CIII mllllol; deny t hnt ~lr. llooro';. ltmd~t· WRS 1\Cl'CJilCcl \\ l1ilC it IVM t{!mpororiJy
reecrvcd ?-J olu uot !mow.
37!!. l"ou sny tlro.L trndt!bl'col'lc ohjt:c!c.I to the li:a.siug for tl•c shop!! r-Y CS; those in
Pnll Mall principally.
:178. Whnt was their rrmsou f-1'hcy dtd not w:mt. nuy mMe cotnJlGtitiou.
!174. Do you own :111y l'roperty in iht~ :\Tnll ?- \~cs, nt tlw cnstem end, tl1c opposite
eml tu tlmL on which the bntbs nrc en,cl tlc.l.
871}. I hnlion• your propcl'iy is nu Lot cl :-Yes, it is.
:jj(;, la 1l&nt -(11anding 11 pnpt>r to tiLe tciflll'iisl-u <'OTr<'Ct: plan ~-Y<'&.
377. Did )<>il propose kl cut a roncl t1trough il.mt }1:\l'k ?- l ,Jic.l nol I tlphcld it.
20
3i8. IInw mnny people wcro present n.t this nH~tiug ?-Tltcrc wns nfl meeting A
memorinl wna propnrcJ, arul !akcn r<>uml {or si~nn.ture. I do not know how mnny signed. It
was not n. hole n.ncl corner Llung. It wali done openly and houe;;tly.
3i9. You know the builtliuge \'ory well ?-I dc>.
380. Do you think they u.·o mlunblo ?-In n 8Cilse they nre. They aro nn improt<cmont
to that quarter of the town.
3Sl. ll,u tl1t! Oommitt~ll.-.\s fnr na _you know, tho ::\uni~tcr nct<c.r gnl'c nny sanction to
the len.oring 1\1111 erecting or huilclinga on tlus corner ?-No. The dcput.'\tion ukoJ him, nnd
be said he wn.s thoro to ntlmiuistcr tho hlw.
382. A th·r you en mu b1wk, wns the noswer nl' lite :\Iinistcr Jisctl!I!Cd at the Council
meeting~ ?- YoR.
3b!l .•\nJ with thu full lmowll•dgo of what. the ~fiuister hnd saitl, wna it still tho
intention to ICI\BO tlri11 l:uHI ?-l'ht•r·e wore !lOvcu out ot' nine who were f:wournble. 1'ho
answer of the )lini9ter· lm•l uo l'll'cd. 'l'ho mnjority Pet the cl.:.-cision of the blinistcr at
defumcc.
3SJ.. Immediately nfter yuu rotut'rll'd, was nu opinion e-:presac•l in such n way ns to be
put in oppo&ition to tlte ecvcn ?-'l'hcro Will! ju11l- simply tt report hrought up nnd read. '!'hero
was no furth1]r nc•liun tnkeu.
:Js.;. 'I' he id en of i !.e interview wn;; to put ofl' tlw lttll~ing ?-Yes, thnt wn;; the id on.
:hG. Wlmt wt•ru tlu,: numucr'l!l in thu Council when yuu r•nme lmuk-how ruany were in
favour of ~:oinj:; on with the loMing ?-1 believe ll•<·ro wcro sovc11.
3Si. Will! there Rll election uclwcen till! time when YOU went tlowu nud the time when
t boy l011sed ?- f ei!, tltero wna :w election.
•
3SS. Did the leasing form a eubjcct of discuRSion at the election P-I do not think so.
I beliet<o, nftcr the election, there \YCro nbout six to three-at the time when it Will! done •
.a:stl. You uicl ltefore rou w"ited uptm the l\lini!!tcr nt all-ht•:forc the two rlcputnt ion11
\rent down, mul before you· haul any clocumcut nt nil-there was n public rumour· tlll\t tho
Count•il wns going lo1 leMO the lnrul ?-Yes.
3HO. !low coultl it n.1·ise thnt they were going to len.so the laud which the\· hnd not 1'\'Cll
n tcmporr~ry rcsorvntion for ?-It wns presumed t~ belong to the Council. h wna nl w"Uys
undcr11toud to bo tmnportlrily reserved I believe there w~ a vcrbnl promise from t;omo
former ':\linistcr.
391. Hnd tlacy gone to nny cxpense?-Xo, I rlo not tbiuk so. It wns always called
bn.th cnrucr.
392...\uti wns this hntl1, which >•.•u carry on ns the gentlemen's 111\th, in cxietcuco
•
befoa·e tlwn f - Y1•s.
30:1. H IHllongell to Ductor AtkinHon ?-lt bc•longc:d to MncGuirc.
3!l-Jr. Diol they ptm•lua~c fro111 Doctor Atkin8(1u before they went down to the
Mini>~tcr :•-Yt•ll. A rr·nngcnwnts were mndc, 1 bclic\'C, to purchn!:lc.
au~. 'rh en they held tho l'rechohl befi>re they got the Guvemmcut~ lnnd nt nll ?-They
have not ~ot it now, ns far 1\B thnt ~neH.
:J!IG. Boforc it wl\8 rCJSct·rcd ?-1 bolie,·e it was temporarily reserved nt the limo Doctor
Atkinl!on'~ prup,•rty wns purclliiRCcl.
397. Your clopuLnl ivu waa in Mn.y, lH71J. How loug h:vl this IJ:tlh corJ1er hccn
consiucrccl ns Uourll•il pr·npur•t.y whic·h I hey coul1l t:dk ahnut lcnsin~ bcl~m• YIHI wont tlown nu
that deputnt ion f-.\ cuusitlt•rablo timo. I coulcl not say the number ot' y~:\l's.
TT,,
Witne1.~
u:itMreu:.
Thomas W'illiam llcCulloda, ncceh·cr of ReYcnuo for the City of S:uulhurst, ('Bilctl.-Exnmincd
by Mr. Helm.
39S. How loug ha\·o you been Recci\'cr or Revenue for the Snurlhurst Council?Since 18Gfl.
3tW. AB Rct.-ei,·el' or Hc\"cuue, arc you acquainted with tl10 cost of tho crcctiou of the
ln.dies' bnths on the b:lth I'C8Crvo f- \.cs.
4.00. C'nn you J•roducc tire originnl contract book ?-Yes.
401. Wbnt wns tho nn1otmt spcut iu the c.roction of baths nnd dminagc ?-Cowper's
contract was £1;102 15s. 4d.
402. ]~xtrns ?-.C236.
403. ,o\uy ncc•nuut for tlrninngc?-'rl1:~t is nltogcthcr.
40-k WhnL wns tho chnrgc l'er plnus ~-£12~ fit~.
405. Sni:Lries ?-£ l.l!J Oa Se!., :mu wagc..'S £1 W 13s. J:d.
489. Dgthc Oommitltn.-Tbou -wo nro to Jcdut)f from tl•c £12R, .C!lO odd? -£00 1 G~.,
len'"ing C!J7 lOt~. ns n uruonr.o to Mr. Flctd•et·.
4!10. But you produeml your book na :\ voudH•r for tl•nt ?-1 did, but T took it from
tlte wrt)Jig contrnct. '!'he ~>rune nrc·l•itccl ltud illt• mnrkef!l, nn e1•rnr wltidl I wiHI1 t.o r:orrccf.
491 • .Mr. ;JlnTnllfrc.-'l'ho llomora!Jll' )Icmber will rreollc<'t thnt in thr llook it WIUI
under lho bend of "1\llaccllnnO(\u~" to which I ohjt.'l't!!d tlH!rC wns noi hing to show thnt tho
cxrendif.uro \\'IlB upon tl•o lnd.ies' hnths. ('l'rl f/w Witntiii)-Nl)W £!10 15s. you atlmit.r-r
nilmit the orrt~r.
19:!. 'l'hcrc is slill n hnlnnr:c nf £:17 01M?-.£8/ lOs., tlutl is )fr. Flddter'll-thnt I
stick to.
49!-J. Wn!.!lhnt gi'"en to l\lr, FlctcbcrP-1~.
494-. Cun p111 prorlucc his roud1~r for it ?-1 dicl lnsl wcelc-(tlu: paper ·real ltafltit:tl to
t11c
ltmn~t:J
Count../].
•1115. This ~~nys fo1• B!'ccinl scr,·ierR in cnnue~lion ";1 h the Corporntiun; illern ill uothing
tu 11how upon tho fnc•e uJ' lhnt thnt tho oxpm11lit un• wns in connt.mtion willi t hu ltltlie.;' baths? -1
nm p•·17pnrod to :mswar that 1Jy proctu,·ing nnotbo·r l'•lllo·her for t)H) Curpoml.<l ffigh School:
11fr. 1-"lctrhcr wn~~ pnid £:17 lOa. lo show thnl lu• wn~ in the bn hit nf' l't)l"t~i"ing those; nu• I it
also pro res l hut he wns nllowc•tl privnte prnc•til'l\ and 11 :18 allowc•i l'o1· spocial l!crric!lfl.
WG. B.vthe f'ommifl1!tl.-Docs it pro\'H t.hnt thnt wns for tbo hnths ?-Thnt. was for
th1:1 hnlha, bu olrell' th,~ pln.n~ for tho hnth11.
•107. lt twcm::: rntltcr to pron• il•c contrnry, for thero iH another itom of £87 lOa. worded
in exactly tho ~~~wcc way?-Thnt is for tbo• CorpOI'Utu High Sc•lwol.
•lfiS, B!t ,.1/r. Mdlltyr~.-1 :tm instruetcd thal l\fr. }']ctl'lu•r did not receive n }lCnny
for the serr:iecJ;, th{'re ie 11othing but your worrl for it-l'.llll you produce n voucher ?-Thoro
iF llw ri'•'Clpt.
40!l. I contend tlu~t if nu mncl1cr ill Jrroduc'-'d, thnt item of £1~!\ goes hy the bonrd;
can you proclut•e 11 l"<>uchl•r ?-Nu JUOro ihnn t!Jat·.
liUO. lJglltc Committu.- You !Ja,·c 110 other P::rplnnntion t11 gim; .:mtl thnt Joes not
show upon I!to fnoo of it whnt it wne for :_so. tbo other ,lo•lB; T brought doi\"'l tl1nt to sl1ow
t.hut; ho wns nllowc·cl priVILte prnctic·c, nntl n·r·('il"l'll pnyml)nl l'roru till! Council.
olll. They arc for exnc·tl'" the snnw •11T·: ~-~ell.
50:!. Mr . .11limmt.- "t;t[ tlte dnt'-'11 help us nt all?
fiO:} , IJ.v Jllr. llt~lm.-'l'ht• ~~l\llfl'nCf WM 1nkc11 in Ol'fob'-'r, 1870. Whnl is lhe date o[
"Mr. l~ldcll(lr's receipt P- I hnn• 11ot got it.
-1/r. Jlfiram1.-J uh· !!nd, l8b0.
:;ot. B!/ the Committu.-You hnvll no other entn-, ntlll notlling fnrtlH~r lhnn this to
11how P- !\oth111g mnre.
Cill.J. IJ!I .:Jlr. lJiclnl!JI'''·-You men I iollt'd IL •lt'tlin.
1 wnut io clcnr up tltat.
Dminnge, you know, is 11 ditl'crcut term from drnit1F; you .know the diiTcrcncc between
orai11R nnd drninngc. Wn11 tl1is n drain iu tho nnturc of chninng-c, or WM it si1nply n conduit
pipe or nn outlot Jlipc P-1'ho Sul'l'cvor can hctter cx,!lniu tl111t thnn I: t hnL is outdoor
work. Il ia put cli'Wll R!l arninn.g!', nnd 1 nndPl'!'t:UIIl t l(!rC wns :1 tloorl tltcro, nnd the flocul
bttr.st. tl10 clam of t!Jc lntlic!l' 11Rtlu•, n111l it o,·erspn•ncl tLe wholo ,;f the lnud there, nnd those
drains Wl'rC put iu in COiliH!•ptonc:c to tlrnin Dr. Bvyd's l:tnd, to run it into the creclt.
:iO<i. l mlllor.;ttulll lbnt t.hc •lrnin w:ts silllli1V" 1111 ouilot pipe ft·om tho lruliPs'
hnthH ?-'rhnt is ull the info-rtnntiou 1 cnn gh·c you.
•
li07. Of com'Bo, if it '1\'ns nn clnltomtc syslcm nf droinngo sw•h ~ you content!, it.
II"Oulci hll\'C cost mnrc thnn ;£'17 lb11. 6~1. Xow, "Lnw chtu·gcs, .£11):1 'is." I wn11t to Mk
you hov. wne the money El.l]tcndeol P-Thcre wns £l!i5 i;:.
50~. To whom Will! thnt lliOIIC~· r;-irc:u ?-~lo~· I lumd tlct>Ul fu the Ohnirmnu p
60!1. No, road tlwm out ?-"'l'n tl'tJlf•m•f'l! nhl'uding lh·st coufercJh•crc Lntl1 corner site."
510. Whnt is tho dnte?-loth of April, I -..;-n.
511. By "'"' Ct~mmiltF".-I>J i his 1ho :flret ? :'\ 11.
51!!. '1'1tkn tho first in ortll't' il-l"il 1' Rc•·Pi\'o·ol from th~ Qjtr Oouncn " - 6Ia. Wl1nt date ?-Tl10 14t1• of <ldf•her, 1Mil. 'l'his iR •,.Rccch·e.l from the Oity
Council uf Snudhurst, the llllln vf .Cv2 4s., for nnd on nct~ount c.>f the l1nih coruer, per bill
Mnc.xcd.''
Mr. ~llclnf!Jrr.-1 mny e:tplni11 thnt the fi1Jj£1ci. of thnFe •1uestion~ is, that. the object
atRtcd in tlu• prt•nmhlo tl1nt the mnncy CXJll'.lldcd il! sniu to lurrr l•£·<·n ~1·• •. t for·, ia in drnining
nnd improYing tho snid wn81o Jnnds, nntl consinu·ting nml muintaiuing "pultlic hn1l111. I
m11intnin Uu~t luw expenses Ill'(' not rclcn111l uulel'l' the.~· are t'Qilllt'ded wiU1 thn hnthe.
lil4. Bg ilm t:ommitlt'e.--'T'his hill of cosh! is in the .J.\ttornl'V-Gcm•ral ngninrl i,he City
Council-whnt wcro tl•u procccdingt~ in tltnt?-One of tltc hnilJi"ngll '' n!l ltmu•d ufterwnrds
2()
into 1m lwtcl nnd there wns n petition R!,"::inst it, nnd the cnso of Crowlcy ngrunst the City
Council wna miscd under tho Local GDf:~nt .4~t.
JJ.Jr. Jlrlm .--lt is reJIOI'tcd - I cannot >ny wltcrc-" Tho .A.ttorn£>y-Gcncrn1, on tbe
inf'ormntiou ofMooro ll. tlu.l Cih Council.''
lil5. Jlg tllc Committee.:_ Whnt; \\""as tltc cnu5o of nction P-An information by tlte
.A.ttomt) -Gcncrnl to filop the lottin; of this front:~ge to Mr. Moorc, on the f:,'l'Oilnd of ita
being n misnpproprintic>n of the propert-y, nnd tile Goun,·il wns mnr.lo a party. Ou anotlter
ocCASion. if you \\;U not mind it, 1 will ;et tl1e reference. It is tl10 Attomoy-Gcncral u.
Moore, on the iuformntio1t or Crow Icy: :! Australian Jurist Reports, page 100.
;, HJ. Mr. Mr.ln(vrc.-'Jt is not Jirectly in tl10 construc•tion of tl10 bntl•~, :uultlJCrcfore
it ehouM not be included in this item. 1'hen tl11~ next itcu1, thnt is £2:! 4s. ? - - 11/r. llelm.-lf you would liko to seo tl10 reporL, I hll\'e it lwrc.
'l'hr. Ohairma.t. -"""W" o will look it nrterwardll.
:ili. J~v .Mr. Mclntyrc (to {he Wilnt·ss). -Wimt is the next ilruu ?-.C•i2,
::ilS• .Lot 1110 scf• lhc \'Ouclwr?-~ T/tc A'ttlntl rctZJr lmlltlt'tl tu lht•lt'llmt•tl C01m8el.]
61!1. lly the Oommillrt. - 1'his is .CW2 4s. ~ - Yt~l!.
:i2t), 'l'lwrc ie CI'Ctlit r.,r 11 cltCIJIIU li.>r £,)0 given on il1.1t lll't'Uillll-1 utul then thtli'C ill a.
rccuipL fo•· U11J hnlanct· ?- - n~ I. JJ,~t1llr• •1fc:lllf,vrr.- 'J'hi'd j,. .£50 hct'l' ?-Tlu.l IH'XIo itr•m is upon tllu I ':I: HI .rune,
lSitl - " llccril·cd frolUl tlltl City Council or Sumllllll'lll, £:it) on RCCUII!ll ol lnw llX.pt:nscs in
re Llw 1>111 h ('Ql'lltr," signc•l '"1'• .l\fot tt•r:uu."
ii~:.! . Whnt wnl! st nlwut :- 1tlu uollmuw-:?IT r. )lottcrruu l':lll C.\jJluiu tlmt .
•'1/r• .JIIullt!riJm.- · l'hnL \IUS fl•r the J'revioua Bill llmt was prcpnr·c·l
~~~·. a'Bcckett
nbout ·tlu·cc u1· four y(·nril ng(l.
o23. llu tluJ Com11utiC< . -'l'lw Bill t hnL tlw llvuomi.Jiu Rol•ert Clark WtUl 10 havo
introduced r---
••t
or
Mr• .Jlofleram .-~ "·
'1'/u: 11",/nt'llll.-l hnvc nnoihcr roNlipt.
o2ll>. R.v Mr. .Jllcltll!fTC. -And the .£ JJ;j is. is accuuntcd for uow ::-.No, tltcro is three
guiuons on t.he l2lh April, lbi!l, "'l'cJ oxp•~nt-os nttcnJiug cout'croneo re L:lth e<.rrncr site, with
Mr. n' Blwkott, in
~lt•lbourne,
thrc•o guirwas- D. i\lcDougall."
r.:m. 1'hnt coxprndilurc wns in t'onnccliun with the !ll'Oeuring of n Bill ?-:•res.
521i. 'l'hc m·xt itt.'lll is ma iutcnnnn~ of baths, £110 r-l'"ill!.
5!.!i. Onn you ahow me the ,·ouc.hcrs in thnt ?-Ye;;; insurance the first item is £3 li.ia.;
£3 His ugniu, iHSlU'tUlcc still.
u2S. I llu nut wnut all \}U)SC tlctuils ?- Thnt will tell wlmt. they consist of-tltc
mnintotwucc •'Oitsists ,,r inanrlilln', wuter.
li:.!!l. /J9 1/w Oommitlrt': l11 that for the whole period ?-This itt for tltc whole
pcrio!l.
:;:m. 11 ow much iul!ut·ntlt't.l P- t:: 1~ ; boilers, dtimucys, thc.rmomctt•l'l'<, deputations,
llooring.
Ga I. lf.v Jl!J·, ~1/l'lntgrr.-Fiwll'in~ fi11· wlmt :-:stern bel, llooriug.
fi:i!.!. IJ,IJ ihll Commillt·tr,-'l'hc Jcputa!ion11 wcro tho~o thut wont down to tho Minil!ter,
I PIIJIJI"'~t·,lu ~l•ln Litlt·?--Yl'&.
.i:t:l. llnw ltltH•h is nllO\n·cl for thut Tc·u guinea:~.
fi:ll. 0 uly ?- Tlutl is alll UILI i.l got down hero.
r.:~:J. How 11\lll'h i11 tl1o lluoring ?- Only ,Cli, AllhlnrM, signs, painting, :md hero i.-8
another tlc!Jlllnt iun of fi\'O gnitu:n11. l'hu rest :1ro all t1mnll-I bnvo only the Tnriou.s Dl\mes
dowu hcr•l-Ciillutt, Buttcrficltl, M:Lbhot, Llo~s, Jacksou; some nro ns low a• ~s. tid. nnd
l!?s. o.t.. amounting to £110 4s. Od.
r.au. Bg Mr. ilfclntyrc.-'l'ho deputations urc £Hi r-Guinens.
u:li. (h·cr "hnt. time ?-Nine "cars.
ii:JS. IJ!I the Oommitlu.-You s:Uil just now the nvcmgc cost of muintcnnuco was £i0
n "cur fi•r the Ins! tlm.>e Vctlr& ?-So I did. but this is mninto.;nnncc from the vcr\' beciunin!!.
•
ri:J!l. For tltrcc vem'fi it l1ns hccn £210 P-£70 here.
•
..
5W. Jig Mr. JUcltzi!JrD.-·.Mny I nsk why the l:ist three yc:1ra wna wlcctcd-wns it by
the instruction of tl1iB Committee ?
'17u~ Ohnirmnn •o
'J'hc Witnr.u.-Xo, I took it myscl£.
:M,.. ..1tnl11f.llr".~ lt woul.t be mud1 moro satisf.'leto"ry to hnl'O tbo whole C%pcncliturc, for
the whole is so smnll th11t the A\'cra~c is not snti~fnctory.
f.iH . JJg thn OomUJillet!.-Cml you gim the whole expenditnrc?-1'lmt is all 1 have,
£110 dUl'ing thnt timo.
28
put down nlso UJlOII the hnflts £36 oxtrl\s; £316 salari<ls nnd wages; UL'Ioinlorlnncc of bnths,
£JJ 0; nntl emnpenaalinn-we \\;n :lUow that £:ill-no, compcruntiou, "·hnt wl\9 that for ?-I
produce the \"Oucltcr.
5(1$. What; WM the expenditure upun tl1c hath~?-For rcmovnl from the balh corner?
6G!l Upon tho bath or hntlt <'Ornor?-Bnth <'Ornor.
570. U pou llw i•:tn<•t lruul whertl tholnrlil's' bnth is P-Upou the rct~ervc.
rt71. But not upon tho ladie.q' bnths ?-1 will not s:w that. I believe it w-ns at tho corner.
:Ji2. It nppc.'lrll to rno it has been tlistiuctly proved i.hat £1,%4- is nbout the totnl P-I
have uot been C~lltninf!d u (Hlll t hu £2:i:J Ws.
57!l. Ycs J<lll luwc P-No. Upon £2:H 1711. lOt!. I hnvc, nnd not upon I ho £253 lOt~.
I think tlum· wn.~ llOIIlt) confusion n.bnut that tho other d1n·.
'l'luJ Olu:irl11tln.-W .. will llOt go iuto ·U lO!!C small matters. You ltad better leave it to
Mr. Helm nn•l :\lr. )1clntn·t·.
:Air. J1lolnlltr". -I lian• ulidt<'tl ft·,~rn flu) wilne,;s tlmt. .:£1,9:>.1: has been expended.
Jllr. Jllirnttis.-'rt'll 1no hnw you rru~ke thnt U}J?
Nr. ,'\fcintyrtt.-£1il92 153. •J.d. is the contract f.Jr the erection of the batba-£3G
on e.xtras.
Nr. .Jlirnm•.-You J,nock nlf the £!!011?
...JJr• .lllc]nlyrr..-Cert.ainly! .C310 salaries nud wages;
main~:mco £ll0; totu.l £l 195i.
That i:: a slight diffcrt•uce from what you l!tntcd just now, £2,835 19a., n di.ffcrcnco of only a
tbo~Mld pouuds.
Nr.1Jlirnm1.-\V" n ht\\"0 not any t!rid<'tli"C yet u.s to how tbo £~,8:l6 is now made up ns
ngnio~;t whnt, wl\8 11aiu last meeting. l t wns C:!,CiUl.
Mr. JLCintyi'I"._.Thnt is for lhl!lll to say.
Nr. l.Ulm.-Thorc is £250 orlrns upou Cowve:r's .:ontrnct.
Mr. Mcihtt~rc.-':3o thoro ru-e, nuJ that is UjtOn the :A'Uuin; J~xchnnge.
:.Jlr. llclm.-"No, it hnppcus thnt the totnla nre ,·er\" uearly the l!lllile; but tbcy nro
difi'crent :itmns.
•
lllr. Mclntyr~.-1 took my iteml! from tho c\·idcncc b.j'·rn by tltis witness under mv
learned friend'u n.xnmination nt tho lnl't met uug.
•
•
:ii J,. 11!/ tile Oommilf,c (to the W1111ns).- Whllt is thi1.1 Ctm-pcr item ?-Tltcre is nnother
£2;)3 16s. whtch makes up a t•Jtnl of £1 ,'i!G lis ~tl. '!ilu~rc was a rui~;apprchension there.
The two ,·ouchc:rs arc so n<'nr together thnL I wns o.muuu£'d upon the wrong >Ouchcr£:!51 1 is .. iust.cad of the £253 lGs.
57.J. You hnw UO\\ hoeu e:tatllinoolupou it;om>~ mnkiug up nbout £1,!1.3-.t., n.nd you tell
ua that lite re:U expenditure wns £::!,S:J{'i ?-Yes, ..C I,,Hl2 l5a. 4.1. wns the nmtmnt of Cowper's
contract.
u7(}. }'or tl10 ladies' bnt hs ?-Y CB, that is the li.'MOlao)t); tl10r0 is £:!53 lGs. upon which
I ha;e not bt'Oli o:mminecl.
577. By tlu1 Oommil/t'll.- Wltal i11 it f•w P-In cuuuN:tion with tho ln.Jies' baths
contrn('ts and nccount.s.
57t-. H rm· !lo vou hon<l it in vour list? Th~ i'l tltu oontrnct here, making up to
£1,74G lls. •!tl.-1 t is· •liffcrnnt, coutra;.ta in COIUt(•r.fiou with tho hnthK.
57!1. \Vo want voucll(lt'll for nll tltos£•. -1 lutn~ rotu·hore for nil.
uSU • .Do vou want to 1:'1'0 that., Mr. ~[clntyro?
Mr. .McJ;,Iqrc.-Yes, I cerlniuly •lo. 1'hnt hns not been produced by my lcnr1JeJ
friend i11 his r.ddt•uco, n•rd of cou rso I tl icl uot \!ro:;;~.~.u:nmino IIJIIlll l'lull. I ouly aos:<<''tmniiwrl II(!On thc•itemR tn'{ lonrncrl friend put. it•. ] f ho hllS unt Jlll( iu 1111 itcrn. 110 much
tho WOI'<-C J"ot· him.
•
Tile Oluzirman.-Thia is an item of £25:1 tor moucy spuut upon tho lndics' batlt:L
What is it for?
~Jfr. Irelm.-It begins with '' Dnley, t,imhcr,'' and ends with "T. Thonws. l!mptying
closets. .C 1 16s.," making nltogcthcr £:!Ci!l Hi a. T put it in.
!>Sl. By tl1e t)qmmitll'e.-Thlll nmount was spent upon the ladies' baths P-It was I
have V'ouchers for O\'erything there.
iiS:!. Yon did not moution jt lust time, and that is where 'lho miatnke occurred. The
voucher for £:!51 WllB put o\"cr to we in mistake ; and 1 Wll!l e:mwincd upon thnt, instt.md of
being examined upon the £::!53 lOa.
"'
• .
.
5~3 . Wl!nt nrc the other items? nrc they hero r-E¥crytlnng 1s thoro, aud the voul·hcrs
for them.
5S·.l. \V ere vour bunks wrong lnet timo ?-No, they were not.
585. You }li·oducerl your books without tlti:a ?-That ia w-hc.ro the mistnko wn~. There
was a voucher for :£251, IUld oue for £253, awd U10 wrong voucher wns handed to me.
29
o8ti. 'l'JJRt does not Rt'COUilt for it& not being in your letlgor r-1 t is ill t hn JecJger.
(lb Mr.lJiclntyrr:.)-\·ou l•nvo OoWl'cr't! papers therO.
i5~1. /19 .Mr. lllclniJrc.-'l'ltnt is only n pit:!ec of pnpE'r. I UJOtLnt your hook ?-1 t is
upon fol1o 2i.
G S. B9 t"r. Committee.-.Are you going to point to the voudtei"S ?-l nm going 10 s. how
you nll the \"0Ucl1crs for this amount. I have shown you the vouchers for C:!.Sl l7s., upvn
whiclt .I wns exnmincd lnst '~eck, in mistake for tlto £!!53 16s.
RClld out t}l(~ \'OUl'hers. \\' c cannot go into eYcn· itom oursch-cs.
6&!1. A DJ('Ull'l'r of the C01omittoo wishes to get the total of each itam11f the n~ldilionnl
£1,000 first.. Whnt is tho ucxt r-.t:S:! His. for the originnl lessee, .1. :,\Ioorc, nltcl'ing a
vcmunlnh. 11«' Will! putliug it up nt tweh·o tt:et, 1W1l ll1e Couucil thought it would iml'ro\'Ctho
proJ)tlft)' lty runkiug thu f111lipntl• fifu:cn feet.
:mu. lly ;lfr. ~lfclnl!lrll.-That is upon 1he batl1s? Jt is upon the corner. :Mr. Moo re
pni·l tlu• COUll111'iOr ;Cs2 His.,"\\ hidl W(I.E' rerunded by illl' Couw·il to Mr. :ll•>Oro. lloro is ll
voucher li•r 'tlllll-[handi"!l''" tlttt atzmn...
f,!IJ. ll!llhc o.,mmiltr.n.-Tho next item ?-Tht•u COIIlnl! the .£251 17;;.-il.is \'Oucher
of t'owpt!.r'H. ·
1)!12. 11.'!•)/r.•\ll'lnlyrn.-'l'hat j,. uol. C.\.LI':l r-Ku. hut I ntU following IIJI lho itt•m.
:ma. BytlttJ CNmmitfell.- Wlmt is tbo.t fur. Th:lt i>1 the )liuiu;.: Rsdmngo ?- 1~:-.nctly,
but it is IL 1 uuchm· in thi11 tl>~t.iumle.
51l L Wt! hud thnt. hcli1ro P-1 know vou had.
Ullli. 'l'lwn how 1!1\ll ili go tu mnkll llltiUil\\hlitiunnl item. Whnt i11 tho £253 lGil. h
not t lmt t'owpnr'a too ?-Nu, it is u numbur of pcn-otl-5- ~re1ding tlu·ir fWmf"G).
uflll. 'J'lml iK ft•r •ltllle nml Clllll! ?-1fi111t i~ fm· otitis :u1d cmls.
fi!l7. 'J'hc11L rou put in £!!51 l7s., aml thnt in•·hub. tho Mining :I~:rchnngt P l'hnt
iucludcs thu flourinH of Lhc ~lmiu~ Ihchaugc, upou which J wn11 ••xnmined last week. There
is nn awouut of .Ca7 loa., lwock111~ out £90 15.... frum the £1~:; fi::~.
Mr• .;1/dnl,qrr•.-Tlhlbe uro tlt•ms I ltn1 e llit·cruly objected to.
l)HS. /Jy lhr: Cr,mmilfrr- no Oil· how can you lllllkc out tl!o ndclitionnl thuusnud
}Jounds P 1 bt•licvc tluLI is ull.
5!l!l. fly .Mr. Jlc/m.-Salurics nml wage;; r-Timi is Ill ill the ilamc.
GOO. .And ins-uruncc F-S~tlmt come.:; in tlte oM c!!timato.
GO.I. 11!1 Mr. JIICJnlyrr.-'l'hm! tho only additiuual ttcm RJIJ•I'!ll'll to me lo be ilia
£253 10s., n111l tho item for nltcring I he H~ranunh :-- ~~2 His.
~I'hc items .I lun·o shown conuectcd with thn ladies' hut ha nuwunt. to £1,0~ I, :uul tl10
ndditim1nl it~mll upon which ho is now i.o be esamiue<l nn~ £:!;):! llla.. uml tlw item altering
vernudnh, £8:! His. l~in;t of all nUow we to ~;ee the I'OtH'ltOr few £2::HI His.-(1'/ICl raNu' teiU
l.a1•dcd to tlu1 lr11rn~l Oounu1.]-ln tbi:; nmuuut I ht\\'C ILIKo t:llll eumn ol•jt>!•tion to l!lku ns J
took to il10 otlt!'rll, llnmcly, th:tt. tbL'rC ill notl1in~ upou 1hn li11•o ut' tlois l.Jo~olc to t!lH!W tloal tlw
CXJICttdit urc wns in COJIU!ll'li(>U with tl1e l11tlies' u111 hs-H may luwu uct·u in I:Olllii'Ctiou with
the gl'utlcnll'nH1 btu h11•
.Jlr. lltlm.-1 will show thnt el~e'' here.
•llr. Jllclt11Vrc.-'l1ll' ),.,ok is nothiug, it is no guu.J.
till~. n,,,,,~ Committe~.- Whnt i~ the fi.rat ittuu ur thu .C:.!5a r
Mr. Jll~lni!lrr. 'l'll(l first item 1 want is druius.
<10!1. lly I be Urmwutln:.-£17 lSs., whnL is it !'ut·?
.Jlr. ~lldlll!lre. -Yes.
1J11tlu• (/Qmmillt'.c. -It is snirl to be a wn.,te pipe out of the hath.
Mr. llrlm. 1\lr. :,\IcCulloch ;.a,·s hi.! does not lwo''• but. I hn'l'o iloo surveyor who knows
for whn.t it wn11 douo. 'l'hc rec:~ijlt itself dot'~" not sl1(1\\ upou tlul fitcc of it Iht1l it. is for the
lndicll' bnll1s, uud Mr. :.\tclnt~·re objects.-) \dll put Mr. Slc:tuc in to show whut
it, \\'81!.
00.1 llu JJ!r. Mc.TntJITtJ.- What is the next ih~u• ?- -£Hu.-'l'lmt is Morint1y, repairing
llllti.om of bnilts.
Mr. 1/dm. Hero is the contract.-" Repairs tolndics' swimwius bntl181 15th IJcccrubcr
l8iU- f 115"
Ull.i. 1di·.•llclntyre.-Yes, fhnt is satisfactory c.uougb-uow the next item?-£:lu l!!s.,
"Longstnfl', ahcmtions "-conlxtll't ledger, 141.
By .Mr. J/r/m.-llt~J'C il' tl11~ l~Utrnct for 'that F-1'ho extras aro £13 os.
lillll. •llr. Mdnf.vn·.-·· Oue ;:;pring board nni.l ihing it.'' Is tbnt for the lndi~' baths?
Mr. Hrlm. Wth .Tanun,·y, 1~-.o; nlterntionq, doansin~, &c., to ladies' baths.
JJ9 lion t'amlllilft•tr (.Ur. .Mcintyrt•).-Uuless there IS aomc item that you tbiuk is
fallncioua, it i~ llc•l \\ 111·tlo whilo to go into every em nil item.
I
30
Jlr. JJlcint.vrs.-l want to show that a. great proportion of this expenditure has been
upon the gentlemen's baths a.s well as the ladies'. This account-a long statement-£ l4 llis. 6d.,
there i,. nothi11g to sl10w that it is upon the ladies' ba.th!!.
Mr. llelm.-1 will call Mr. Stenne.
Tl1s Oltairmnn.- Wi 11 you prove it?
Mr. lldm.-Jf tl1ere is objectson to it I will prove it.
607. By .Mr. Me l"lftre.-Tben I will pnas tlu' £253 ltiH., but tile item of "altering
verlllidn.la £82 Hid.?" I have producetl the voucher fur that.
608. Is that the vorandnll of the ladies' baths ?-l t is the frontage tu the reserve-the
footpath.
600. It is not upon the ladies' baths ?- His upon the leaseho1tlln.nd. It is upon the
footpath ouLsit.le.
1 haJ. admitted the £253 16s., antl l 1ldd t hnt to £1,9;; ~. and I ge~ a. total o.f
£2,207 16s.
Mr. Mirams.-Yon admit the £253 .
Mcintyr~. aubjecf to the production of Mr. Stenne, to prove thn.t the a.mount "'as
expended U]}On the Jadies' baths.
TluJ Olunrmrm,-Of course Mr. ~!clntyre, we will lJen1· you upon the merits of the
case afterwards in n.rgwnenL As to the sum of £8215s, I naked the witr1ess it' the item was
in connection with 1\ vern.nd.tili upon tho hntbs. lie says, "No; it is in connection \vith tl1e
verandah to Mr. .Moore't~ lense."
(HO. B.l/ ths Committee.-~'hat is the verandah in front of the builtling~<, 1 presume?-
.Mr.
YeR.
Cil 1. B.v .:Mr. Mointyre.-Hoiv came you to find out that you hncl \vrongly flnid that
}Ir. Vahlnntl had r·eceived £90 odd ?- 1 snid tlmt I had only notice to nttend the Select
Committl:la meeting three hours to select rul roy vouchers, and Lhr<'(' purtt< uf the Youcbers
were in this hui.lc.ling, and I had not nu l1our in Mell.lOurne to look them up, antl rhus these
diacrepnneie occurred.
612. How did you fiud out your mistake ?-1 wa told. hy Mr. Vahlnnd. and I looked
it
Ull·
(.11:3. ,In ·onsequcnt:e of n letter which nppearcrl, signed by 'M1·. Vuh1and ?-It wns in
('Oillracl was going llll by the Rnmr party nt the 111t1no
t~1e hurry of the moment, and another
time.
614. End uot 1Ir Vn.hlo.nd cnlll.'d attention to that in the Bendigo newspnpers of 8th
July, you woulLin<>t h:wc tlist~tH'Gt't'd it. ?- Probnl1lv I should not.
•
615. Did you rend that letter~-Yt~ll.
The Committee objN·ted fo this line of ~~mminntion.
6lti. B,v M1·. Mcintyrs.-l.a t hl~rc any malo 1tccor.nmotlation do ypu know in those
baths r-No.
617. They ttro strJCiiy confined to lndic!l ?· , lriclly t•onfineu to lndies.
mS. '1'hcy h:we IIC\'CI' beeu opan to geotletnon at any time. It i!l n common thing in
many cities that ladjes hnve the u11e of bath~< on certain days in the week, anu gent.loruen on
the othet• tlny.; ?-Y~:rer tluLt I am awnre of.
I w:UJt to get at. the total reoPipt!l from thoRe baths, the ladirs' baths. The Committee
got it. out Jn~t t imc. The Clmiruann naked the q ueetion ?-Rents from Mr. Moore from
1st Jmmnry, l.. 72, to- Gl!l. fly the G'ommitlee.- We .hn.ve got nll that?- You hnve all thnt.
.
620. l>o you mnl<e any altet•ations in the 1·eceipts trom them ?- Only £5, I mnde a
m.tstake of £5 in Dr. Bcn-tl'll reul.
li~J n.v Jlr . .Mdnl,l{rl~.-- lmt i!l t hi' total UIDOUILL:'-£2,810 Llls.
(i~2. IJ.I/ lltt! Commit In•.- 'i nu t.lltcJ. 11t lhe tmd of your ericlenc • laat meet iug tha.t you
bnd nloont £/1) more tn mltl l'or rate... ?- 1 will explnin tlu~t. That, Wll!! JJUt p:siJ at the enu.
O:l!i. A.re I hey a WHhl rlcht ?-'l'h y tu·a n fine Jellt- l>r. Boyd'~:~.
fi2·1 'I' hat hns lo lte ntluetl r \V e hM e uot gut it yet.
625 But it is u. goot! tl.S!!ct? Yes, buL it il'l 1\ good a>set.
.Mr. Mcintyrc.- £1 , 0.
626. By tl1s ('.()lltmittef'-·v.:re should lllcc to know the income from tho gentlemen's
baths upon tl1e freehohl. Wo have lhl) expcntliture, we wn.ut; the income? -The receipt" upon
the u·eehold are £~.7o~ 17s. Gel.
627. Jur. Mr•Int,vr1!.-AJ1d ''hat i~ · th~ totnl expe.ncliturP ~
Mr . .Mirams. - £:1.9 i2.
Mr. :Mr:IIII!f''e,-lf t.Jw .Committee nrc !;Oillg to at•cepL rhe uxpell!litU.r(• upcm the
freehold !LS £3,792,] ~:~IJnll lJil\"C to CI'OSS·OUIUlille up011 it .
w
32
Mr . .J/clnt.vr~.-1 object to that.
Helm.-You say that wn.s in couuoctiou with the building of th~
baths ?-I uo; for l found out afterwa.rds that he drew the plans-which Clln be produced
t~7. ]1!1 ~llr.
now, here.
MS. Mr. Ht:lm.-Salariea and w~e.i?
The 0/•airouJII.-'rhat is not disputed.
ti!l!l. JJv .M,., Helm.-£316 and maintenance nnd insurnnec, £1LO 4!1.?-Ycs.
G:iO, 'VltO aro E . .Audel'l!ou and others-do you include t110so ?-Pa.rtially, during the
time ho wul! ut work.
G:il. lu wlmt l'CI!pect do you put down E . .Andcl'l!ou aud others-whnt (lid be do?Ilc drew ·t lw J•lnus, nud he superintended the excavation of tl•eso ln.dics· bn.ths, and n.sait~ted
to !upcriutcud ulso the erection of the building.
G!"t2. A11 t•lcrk of works ?-No, hew~ not clerk of works. }[(• wne nn nssiat:mt of Mr.
~1etcbcr's.
(;5:3. How much tlo you chArge. Do you iucludo K An•lorl!on nrul othorl! in the
aala.ri ea nml wngos r-1 do.
611.1 . .I lhnughL it was n sopnratc item F-No, it is not.
Tlte Wifn~s tritlldrew.
Ocurgo Hohllrt Uoyuo
!:Ileum~,
ugll.in t:ulled. -Fur·Lhcr ox:uniuctl hy J/r.
lf~lm.
USu. Will you look at tlw li~t na prepared by ~' I r. :)I cOullocJ., M if you hn\'c not got it
1 will rmul it to \'Oil. ' 1 G. Dnll'y, tiruht~r ne{·ount," tio you kuow nuytl1ing of thnt? -Yes; a
voucher wns prmln,•o(l. rrlu\t is n em:tll item nf £15, nncl I he ,•ouchcr wns produced, and to
the lwet of my rcc<~lll'ction the •let.'lil"' ure not :showu; but 1 think it wns 11omo work that
wae rl~no unoior my own bauds, nutl tht!y are entered in my book. I rauuot sprok positively
about tt unless I flee the voud1crs.
twli. On what wus the work done ?-Re.p:Urs upon the ladies' hntlu;.
U5i. " P. Morinrtv, :£1.7 1Ss. Gd., for drains" ?-'l'hat was lor draining round tbe lndies'
baths, inchuliug n pordon 11f the ground that is leased by ))r. Boyd. Anticipating this
question, I made 1\ trncing-(IJroducing lire 1amr·]-to fit upon the lithograph pl1m. 'l'hnt
lithograph plnu llb0\\11 the burlilinus aud the grouud. This lnu:ing ~:~hows iu coloul', in
yellow, tho portion of the :rescn·e that is lea.~ed. Jho bluoline - (l!i • 18 tJ•o portion leased built on :'-It is.
'.l'ho sito Ullt'Oiuurotl is tho silo
unoccupied by the lndiC3' batlu; nnd right-of-wa~·, and the bluo lino t~hows thfl drniua that
cost the £li liSs. Gd '111nt £1i bs. 6d. wa.s tor drnin pipt•s nn•l gl':llill!;B. They wero
conducted iniAl Um outlet pi,pc. 1'hc outlet pipe from thll unths "1\8 l'lllliiii'Ul'l.(.'tl in COIIIJllCtion
with thu coutrnd £1,19:!. 'l'his wns n. ~ubscquoot work. lu l'at'l, t:lll'l'it:d ''"~ hr 1110 in the
begiuuing uf LSiS,nnd Jl was {'Oruwctt!U with thll; pipe. 'l'his plan fully sho\\B tht, mnttor.
tl5U. 'Phu nost itt•m ie, P . .Morio.rty, in 18t!O, repairing bottom ut' !Jaths cuutmct. \\re
han~ {"ll iu t l111 cuutr•nt•t. but it does not Mhow that it WWJ [ot• the lndit•s' bntlut, tlmt is £145,
Wl\<l t •nt. 1ho lntliul!' haths ?-Contract upon the £aco of it.: show11 11111 rupnira lu I ho ladies'
swimming b:~tlu1 iu ISi'll.
nuo. .All 11 litrb, 1\'IIH it lor that ?-All fo.r IUI 1 rcmombcr thl•rtl WI\J! n Hoot! which tlrovo
in lho C'rul of the lndirtt' bnths, which were not Hlled, :usd in nlltlitiolu to thut tiw bottom wns
!lomcwlmt oll!ft'l'l i\·c, nu !I this Wt\8 1o repllir it.
tili 1. 'Piw nc.xt it,•m of .£5, nn extra upon the coutrncl wns that, upon thnt work upon
the latlit:s' lmtha ?-It wns un extra. upon tlU\t work.
OU2. 'l'ho next is If. Lonb'lltaf£, contract alterat-ions £85 12a., wllat WILB thnt forr-It
was fos· tltc hulics' baths. It was rcmo\'ing a portion of the roof to nllow nsoro sunlight in,
nnd altering l!orno of tho dreBBing-rooms in accordance with my ~icws, to lll:llcc them more
com·enicnt for ladies.
663. gxlrss upon that £13 iis., do you know anythinrr about thnt P-1'ltifl I supJ>O!e,
we need not: go into, of Pnule laying on water £5 1.2s. Gd., is Utat for the ladies' bnths P-'rhat
is for the lathes' bnth~. The inside was ornnmented with ferns to mnko the place attrnctit'c,
aud this wutcr wna to keep the ferns watered.
GG4. 1'hcn this curtain ?-Tl10se nro all small items.
t.IG5. Wero they all upon the lndics' baths ?-They "·ere.
66G. B11 the ·01mmittee.--Oarried out under your supcriut(!lldCllcC ?-Oarricu out uudcr
my supcrintcudcul'O.
Cross-ennniued by Jfr•
..1/clJII!fr~.
(llli. l>o you kuow anything nlmut a letter wr1ttt·n nn•l l:li.mt by the pcliliunor,
.lrunos Uo\'cl, to tha promotci"B upau tba Uth ~DJilCUiber, l~ii, I'OO!plninlhc;
the lt.ltlknpo ut'
tho lntlit'l hnths, nml the l'aty Sur,·cyor-th:tt is Mr- Stcn.n's report thercon, :tutlll minute of
or
I he Councll referring thProto
\\' c h:ml !!i,·en notice
to till'
bthcr a!Je t•l produue thoec
I just wnut to uy thnt this bath JlUt the h~sso.: to ~rent cxpon11c frolllll.ll huperfctt
construction~- (l\·o a11&u:cr.)
'l'hc hmrrwJ counsel prtJcet!dCtl t.o rc~l the sa!un ns follows :-·• BJ.t h Corner, Sandhur.:;t,
1 Hh Sopt!'luhtlr, l'i7i, · 0 cruluwcn, I beg to inti1rn1 you that ~'fltc Chairman. Wo will not trouble V•lll tu :read tlmt W u will euueidcr 11..
filiS. Nr. .;.llrlllf,l(rt•. -\7 cry woll 'J'h~rl' is :m item of .Cl:.!O iududed m tliiN. 'l'lmL j.,
11!1y I \\llllt to }llll in lhi-s 1\ilh Lhc two rt•port:s.-[T/ur H•lllltl rr.l'T'Il han.l~ti in., (1\1 /he
1f'ilu~ss.)-Do yo11 lmuw lhis plal·u-:shuwill!l '' phufa!J1'11J'h to lht wifllr8B] :'-\c111 1
recogn~o it well.
l)[i!l, Ono ul' the \l'itn·~~··- ~l.:llul that. the buildirt~K ··ould he urocl1'cl fut• C5,ll00. r(IIJ
aro a m:m w id1 Romo knu\\'ktl~l· •lf this nf£air; Utl yo11 think ho is corrul'l.? -I •'l'rtuitdy 1lu uot
think £;j,IKM wuuM lluil,lthl\ltl, uor Hllrthiu~ like iL.
U71t, lln.\ umc 11 •h1 yuu thiultt.:...l •:nrmotsny. J hnn~ nul guuo uvor it. l Hrn notn
documents
builtliug
l!tii'\'C\'01'.
li7 l. " foulrl tlal\ l'ust doul.th: ili~
Jrlr. linlm.-'l'h~l iJ! trot nil upou the hatb cMnt•r.
07!! Jfr, ,lJclllf,rtrtl.-Mu:ll ,,f it. ~ ow, the pllrt upon tlw bnth •·urncr re orvo, in
,·our opinion i'-1 hclic\'O they \\Ouhl t.:ust mora tlum 1:5,000. ] Ll•licl'<! Sll; but 1 lllll not 11
building suneyor.
7'h~ 1Fit~~e11
withdrtJw.
11Lr. lldm lli.Alo<l that. lac had no ollrer ''itnct<s to call upon tho prcnmblc.
'I'll" Ollairmtzn nskt•d Mr. 1\ll'lntyr.: whether he propo.wd to cnU any C\idouco agniust
t ho prenm hlo.
Jdr. Jllclrrtyrr slated tltnt ho tli•lnot propose to cnll wianesscs ngnin11t the preamble,
I'Xecpt as to tlm portion which mention:! the lcaso, if the Gonrrnittoo thought it nccesmry;
nud 11ubmitted thnt uflicicnL e;i.lence hnd been u•hlu.:od nlrl!%ldy to shu .... thut the pre:~u•blt!
hnd nvt ht·l~ll jlro~cd, uud bnbuaittcd that :\(r. lldut should un\\ l1c hcnrd to sum up tbo
O\'idcnct•.
'l'llll Cltairtlwtl rnl•:J tl10.t thi~ w:u; in tu:col'llnnco with tlto practice o£ the courts.
.llr. Jlelm '1\11.~ Jll't•ccoJing to nrl1lro~s I he O<unmiUtlH 1\ lwn tho ChnirmrLu ouquircd
wlwtlll'l' th(•ro wns tLUY moro tbnn one notice of n pcrrnnueut rcs<•n·atiou •
.Mr. .1/otir.mm.:_ l'hnt is nil.
Gia. !l'lte Ulwiru111n.-1'hon t.h\'rt.l L:; no pcrnuun:r1t roscr·vation ll<'lllll'diug to t!te Act
which re•znin!K fnur not ices, whllo h•:rt• unly ono wn.:t givon-is thmt 11n 't
J/ r . .l!fl!ft:l'am.-'l'lmt i~ 1111.
~·ur. llt'lm wniS ho.u•tl t.n 'lotlln up iho l!dtlunce in tmppnrL of thl• preamblo
.llt•, ,1/clul!!re \\:\11 h1!:1r1lln :11.hlrusll lho Uuuunitt••o in n:ply.
'/'he (Jhairmu'i iutim11t:cd to th,• coun~<cl nud partic:~ that nu lll'i1icrwc wuuld bn tnkcll at
thu lll!l't si tun~;: of tho Gomrnittoo, but tlr1Lt tluo notice woulJ l>c gil'cn when '' ituL•ttMcH (if' o.ny)
wou!J be rC•JUit'Cll tu nttcnd •
.A.Jjounr~d
to to-morrow at
twrl1·~
o'clock.