FUELLING THE FUTURE 2012
A Musical Theatre Network/Mercury Musical Developments Conference on a future for
musical theatre.
Breakout session one
Who are the artists, where are they coming from and are we supporting them?
Chaired by:
Panel members:
Neil Marcus
Louise Blackwell, Dougal Irvine, Andy Barnes, Michael Peavoy
Neil Marcus: the provocation here is about talent development so let me introduce the
panel: to my left I have Louise Blackwell from Fuel, then I have Dougal Irvine, composer,
lyricist and book-writer, Andy Barnes of Perfect Pitch a development agency and producer
Michael Peavoy. So I’d like you all to think about that question and start off with: where’s the
talent coming from?
Louise Blackwell: I’ve written a little something that I’d like to read to you. My name is Louise
Blackwell and I’m co-director at Fuel. Fuel is a producing company which I set up with Kate
McGrath in 2004 and we produce fresh work for adventurous audiences by inspiring artists
We work with artists who push the boundaries of form and experiment with new ways of
bringing live performance to new audiences. We work with artists whose practice is rooted in
theatre but crosses boundaries of dance, live art, music , film and digital art. We work with
artists who look at the world in a different way and whose practice challenges what we think
theatre is. Many of the artists we work with are hungry to try new forms and challenge
themselves. Melanie Wilson is a brilliant sound artist, director and performer who is a great
example of this way of working . Her work is rooted in composition and sound design and she
is currently dreaming about an idea that might become an opera. She says: I began thinking
about opera initially because of its large scale, its formality and its spectacle. Those aspects
stimulate deliberate ambitions in me to make work on a bolder scale. But the underpinning
of that thinking really has more to do with the interest I have in making work that bends the
worlds of image, sound and text towards each other in order to create new ways of
experiencing live performance. I saw Rash Dash’s show The Ugly Sisters as part of Northern
Stage’s St Stephens programme in Edinburgh this year and it immediately sprung to my mind
when thinking about this conference. Their show was made in collaboration with the band
Not Now Bernard and is a punky cabaret style show with excellent songs and great
storytelling. When I spoke to them on the phone this week they said they are interested in
popular forms and attracting audiences that would go to a live music gig. Finally Will
Adamsdale is a theatre maker who won the Perrier in 2004. His new project is a play with
songs and when I asked him why he wanted to make a play with songs he said: Songs are
just fun. Why wouldn’t you have them? I’m sure there were songs in everything up until the
4th wall appeared and everything got serious. It’s the 4th wall s fault, like everything else.
I’m interested in world where artists aren’t pigeon holed into making a certain kind of work
and can cross genres. I believe we should be looking for future musical theatre makers in
unusual places like cabaret and comedy clubs and live art festivals. We should be
encouraging cross artform collaboration to make the best genre busting live performance
possible whether musical theatre, opera or plays with songs.
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Dougal Irvine: Follow that! It’s really interesting just hearing the end of that especially about
looking outside the room to bring collaborators into musical theatre. That’s sort of what I’ve
been hearing over lunch and some sort of consensus seems to be coming back that we
should always go out and bring people in. And I think that’s how I got into writing for musical
theatre; I was an actor for six or seven years and then I wrote a show called Departure
Lounge, although I’d never written anything before. And when I started writing it I certainly
saw it more in a comedy club than a theatre, but as more and more people involved in
musical theatre became involved, that gradually shaped it into something that is much more
at home in a theatre, I think. But I remember friends of mine coming to see it who didn’t go to
the theatre and saying they really liked it but they liked it better when it was a comedy show.
So there are pros and cons I think of bringing something very left-field into something quite
central, if we think of theatre as being central. I very much saw myself as one of those
people who’d been brought in; having now worked as a musical theatre writer for the last
four years and tried to craft a living I find myself, weirdly, at the conservative end of it going
“well, I came into it not knowing anything and managed to write a show which some people
liked and it’s done quite well” and now I’ve kind of gone the other way and I’m going to
continue to write so I’ve got to learn the craft and I’ve spent the last four years doing that.
I’ve been lucky enough to write five musicals with different collaborators – three of which
have been done professionally and one of which I hope will. And now it feels, from the “in”
looking out it’s great to bring the outside in to produce shows but it’s also important to look
after the people who are looking after the traditional musical form. There is still merit in the
craft of writing a song and writing a story and learning how the song fits into the story. I
suppose I see it from both sides now but I do think it’s important we support the person who’s
going to write something that will be successful in three/four years’ time who’s developed on
the inside.
Neil Marcus: That’s quite interesting because the last session was about innovative forms of
musical theatre but there was also talk about having respect for the craft and the two can sit
side by side, they’re not mutually exclusive and they inform each other and a vibrant fringe
and regional theatre and West End with work that is “cutting edge” and pushing boundaries
and also very well-crafted, I think there’s room for all of that.
Andy Barnes: I’ve literally just come back from a conference on musical theatre in New York
where broadly similar things are being discussed and one of the really interesting things that’s
coming out is the terminology of we’re trying to do. I’m a big fan of saying it is what it is
whether it’s a traditional book musical or something that’s much more hard to define which
we’re seeing more and more of. But what is more interesting in terms of who we’re bringing in
and why is who it’s for? I know there’s a panel on audience and I don’t really want to go
down that route but I think that’s ultimately the point. If it’s just for us, if we’ve brought cool
person x together with cool person y and they’re making cool stuff but no-one wants to see
it, it’s a bit pointless. So it is about pushing the boundaries with artists who don’t want to be
defined and perhaps shouldn’t be defined alongside making steps to give our audiences
something they may not know they like whilst giving those who do know what they like
something that they want..
Michael Peavoy: I wasn’t quite expecting to be sat here! Being relatively new to the whole
thing (I’ve only been producing for two years)I had the question where are the artists and
turned to MMD and Perfect Pitch. But I suppose the question is also where are the artists
outside MMD and outside Perfect Pitch and where do they sit and how do we reach them? I
suppose that’s what I’m interested in. I suppose the more we can get people like Dougal
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and the more we can find people who are breaking the mould – not for the sake of breaking
the mould but for the sake of the story and for entertainment – and the more we can nurture
new writers – although it is important that we do look after the people who write the
traditional book - the more people will think “well, I write in that style” or “I write like that” and
find an artform they can relate to. So where are they, the writers that are doing that?
Andy Barnes: I think one of the things is, they’re not all writers. One thing I really noticed in
America is that they talk about “book, music, lyrics”; “book, music, lyrics” and I think it has
been proved and evidenced already, just put people in a room and see who creates what
and then see where that goes and how interesting that is. I was famously misquoted by
Michael Coveney once for saying “Musicals are created” and he assumed I meant on
computer. But actually they are; we put people in a room and there’s way more than just
the bookwriter and the lyricist who make what you see and ultimately what it is. And I think
that’s the interesting model and I think whoever you bring in are ultimately the writers of that
show.
Neil Marcus: I think there is something of a renaissance in the British musical at the moment;
there’s a lot of writers breaking through with incredible craft and also it’s important to keep
looking for the next generation. It’s probably worth touching on what provisions already exist
for writers in this country at the moment to develop that piece; I’ve had this conversation
with Andy many times: a writer has a show in development and that’s great but is it good
enough to be shown or will it do it a disservice by showing it too early. So we’ll start with you
Andy, if that’s all right?
Andy Barnes: Perfect Pitch are always looking for interesting writers to work with. Our remit if
you like is to respond to opportunity and to create partnerships where opportunity can land
and place the right people in the opportunity at the right time, for them or for their career as
it is, with the view ultimately of getting more shows out there. And that I guess is it for us,
finding the right model, whether that’s a three day reading, sitting in the office chatting
about it, whether it’s a two week workshop going to producers at the end. We are trying to
define ourselves by being fluid, but I guess we’re a step on the way to helping writers get
through a problem or an issue they might have with what they’re trying to create, whilst
bridging that gap between reaching an audience at some point.
Neil Marcus: Can you give an example of a show that you’ve helped develop
Andy Barnes: The Go-Between was one we did. Richard and David came to us; it had a
brilliant director Roger Haines attached to it; they’d written it, they had a version of the book
that in their opinion and in the opinion of some of the theatres they’d shown it to wasn’t quite
working and Roger wanted to define it with a concept and they wanted to try that out
because they didn’t know if that would work. So we worked with them to create the
environment where that could happen, we showcased it and then brilliantly Laurie (Royal &
Derngate)and Henrietta (West Yorkshire Playhouse) and Peter from Derby picked it up. That
was very targeted and they already knew about the piece. We didn’t create the piece from
scratch with them but we filled that gap between something existing that could be really
good and something being good enough that those guys could put on.
Neil Marcus: It’s interesting to hear because investment in musical theatre as an artform
development has only really started this year with the Arts Council funding MMD and Perfect
Pitch, and whereas places like the Bush that has been championing new writing for years,
we’re just starting out so it’s good to get a broad landscape of what exists.
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Dougal Irvine: I’ve just finished six months as Resident Composer at the Royal & Derngate in
Northampton. And one of the things we were talking about over lunch is that we’re a bit like
the coalition government; no-one has any money but we’re just trying to do what we can.
And it’s very difficult to get behind new schemes without any funds to back it up and
someone was asking what are the people who’ve made the most money out of musical
theatre doing – Andrew Lloyd Webber and Cameron Mackintosh – and for the first time in my
memory since I’ve been working in musical theatre Cameron Mackintosh has funded five
resident composer schemes around the country at various theatres. It was piloted with
Michael Bruce at the Bush and I was placed at Northampton; I was basically given a living
allowance for six months to be around Northampton and to write for the theatre. It was
amazing, it gave me three things really: it kept the wolf from the door in terms of paying my
bills; it gave me some incredible dramatic moments to write for – I was involved in The
Bacchae and Blood Wedding (I had to write music for someone getting their head ripped
off!); and it also gave me a one-to-one mentor in Laurie Sansom and the opportunity of really
learning the nuts and bolts of how the industry works from the creative side. When I realised I
was going to be on the panel today I did a quick check round some writers I knew and
asked them if there was anything they thought in terms of provisions for new writers and one
thing that came up a lot was that thing of mentorship and I think it’s really important. I
contacted Grant Olding when I was thinking about becoming a writer, because I didn’t
have a clue, and I said can you make a living doing it, and he laughed at me but he did
have some real, no bullshit advice of how he did it and how he worked through. And there’s
no set way I don’t think how a writer can earn a living; all of the panel who were here this
morning will have different career paths as to how they got where they are, but I think that
having someone more experienced to turn to and have a conversation with once every six
months I think that would be something really worth setting up. And maybe it’s something
that MMD and Perfect Pitch could help with - assign a couple of the Don Blacks and a
couple of the Tim Rices or whoever to the next generation coming up and suggest once
every six months they have coffee and a bit of mentorship. And the other thing they talked
about a lot was legal advice; if you have a new show and you’re getting bogged down in
the corporate issues of rights and who owns what and who should be paid what, having
someone there with real business sense as a mentor that a writer could turn to would be
really helpful.
Neil Marcus: that mentorship model works particularly well with musical theatre. Louise are
there particular things that Fuel does?
Louise Blackwell: There are some kind of development opportunities in the ways that we
work; systems that we work with that I would like to share with you. One of them is an
organisation called China Plate who are brilliant theatre producers and they help Matt
Burman run the programme at Warwick Arts Centre and they’ve also just taken over the
Pulse Festival. And they run this thing called the Darkroom which is a thing for collaborative
theatre makers to work with a writer for a period of two weeks and they’re paid for that time
and it’s with the intent that the craft of storytelling is at the heart of the visual or devised
theatre process; I was thinking that there might be some links into musical theatre, that
musical theatre might benefit from that. And we also have a relationship with Dartington Hall
which is in Devon, and Cove Park which is on the west coast of Scotland. These are two very
different residency models; one at Dartington Hall has some very brilliant theatre studios that
they let us use for six weeks with some artists. And the intention behind that is for us to
encourage artists working in a certain form to perhaps experiment with a new collaborator
and actually technically, work it. One of the things that Rash Dash was saying to me is that
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they find it very difficult to get into a theatre that is equipped enough sound wise for them to
play with the music in the instrumentation and throughout their rehearsal process. So
Dartington is one model. And then there’s Cove Park; Cove Park is an amazing place; there’s
no internet access really and you stay in little pods which are lovely, and it looks over a loch.
A lot of visual artists use it and it’s a real kind of thinking place and so Fuel work with different
artists to think about the next stages of different projects once the development phase has
happened which often includes a mentorship
Neil Marcus: The season at the Soho, Michael, you’ve been doing some development there,
do you want to talk us a little through that
Michael Peavoy: As a champion of new writing, Steve Marmion’s done a great job in
opening doors to new opportunities for new musical theatre. And one of the opportunities he
gave me was to create the Opening Doors festival which is a festival for new writing that
showcases new work – I think we did about twelve writers in the first one and about twelve
writers in the second one. And it’s basically a chance for writers to get their songs to actors
and into a space and in front of an audience in a relaxed atmosphere. We’ve done two so
far and we’ve also established the Craig Barber Award which is a new award for
composition. One of the things I’m proud of with the award is that it’s an award for
storytelling; we’re not looking for show tunes, we’re looking for songs that are full of
character. It’s not just about re-creating the form that works , it’s not a formulaic thing but it’s
looking to see if someone is challenging, telling the stories, using the music and the lyrics in a
way that serves that purpose as opposed to a commercial success? And hopefully there’ll
be lots more of that to come.
Andy Barnes: I think on that basis, Elliot said it this morning sitting here – just getting stuff up is
so useful and I think that’s one of our primary aims, just to get stuff in front of people, whether
it’s the audience, whether it’s a few producers, the writers, whoever needs to see it; and
actually ideas like Michael’s done directly has resulted in a production of one of the shows
that we’ve been developing for ages before it and somebody saw it here and has backed
it. And we didn’t plan that; we didn’t bring that person in to say “hey, you might like to back
this” you just need to put stuff out there
Michael Peavoy: The first festival that we did was just a selection of songs downstairs in the
cabaret space; the second one was a full day festival and in here we presented three
musicals that were rehearsed throughout the week, each show had a full cast of nine, we
had two bands as well and as a result of that two of the three shows will be in theatres
somewhere in the next twelve to eighteen months
Andy Barnes: And I think it’s something really worth bearing in mind in the festival
conversation that’s coming later on in the day, that it’s the process before the festival as well
as the festival outcome, so whatever the presentational element is it’s actually what went
before that meant that those shows were in a position to be seen.
Dougal Irvine: How many potential writers or bookwriters or lyricists are here at the moment –
quick show of hands – wow, quite a lot! I mean these guys are amazing, and Fuel are
amazing to give you this kind of support and development and opportunities but they can’t
do everything and already we heard this morning from a team who are struggling to find
anyone to say yes, and they’re banging their heads against a brick wall. I guess the answer is
that if you’re still not getting the space then try and do it yourself, try and get it in front of an
audience because you learn so much from that process, even if it’s your friends, even if it’s a
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coffee reading in your house, there’s got to be a first step. And then you learn something
and then you create the next draft and then eventually you get it to the stage where you
can get it into a company or a festival, but you’re learning and growing the whole time.
Never use the “oh, they won’t take it” line as an excuse; you must be proactive as writers.
With Departure Lounge, I was producing it within the festival, acting in it because we never
had all the actors in the room at the same time, directing it when the director wasn’t there,
choreographing it when the choreographer wasn’t there (that was really funny!) and trying
to MD it as well and eventually, if you get beyond that, other people can come in and fill
those roles but you have to really drive it yourself to begin with.
Louise Blackwell: Just something Andy was saying about audiences and the development
process before it gets in front of an audience; before I set up Fuel I was senior producer at
BAC when Tom Morris was there and while Jerry Springer the Opera was developed through
the scratch programme, and scratch happens all over the place now and it feels as if there
might be lots of opportunities to get your work in front of an audience. To have an audience
is a really crucial thing in terms of shaping who it’s for and trying to understand it.
Dougal Irvine: Scratch is brilliant; a couple of friends did it and now they’ve got a full draft.
It’s just about someone saying “yeah, I like that” other than your mum and that’s all you
need sometimes. And they’ll say something interesting and you’ll go “oh, yeah” and you
don’t tell them at the time but you put it in the next draft
Louise Blackwell: And they’re delighted when they see it and go “that was my idea”!
Andy Barnes: We tend to have this vision of putting our stuff in front of an industry audience,
and somebody mentioned it earlier – they’re the worst people to get honest critique and
feedback on your show. Get them in, you need them, but fill it up with an honest audience and not your mum and your dad, great though that is. We very recently did a workshop in a
theatre in Maidstone in Kent, we brought in 60 locals – mums, dads, kids etc – and the
producer who had already expressed an interest in the show totally bought in because she
saw the reaction, as opposed to anything we could tell her about how cool it was and how
good the music was. And that sold the show and that for me is fundamentally important – we
need to try and get those people in the room.
Neil Marcus: In terms of awareness there are a couple of other things that go on that other
people may not be aware of. There’s the Book Music Lyrics programme that David James
runs which are ongoing sessions about craft, a twelve week programme you can apply for
each year and there are a series of exercises that help you get better at what you do, for
instance, if Shirley Valentine were a musical write the opening number. There’s the Sidney
Brown Award that we started this year where MMD pays for a writer and a director and a
cast to go off to work on the piece; there’s no showcase, it’s about working on the material.
We do Lionel Bart Masterclasses where a visiting luminary such as John Caird will give
feedback on your shows. There’s Youth Music Theatre UK, who are probably the biggest
producers of original musicals in the country and that’s where Loserville started from. Willy
Russell and Tim Firth do a series of weekends about developing craft. So although there isn’t
a wealth of opportunity, there are a number of things going on around the country to be
aware of
Delegate: In terms of BML – just also to say that we also have lots of great people coming in
to give advice – we’ve had Charles Hart, Richard Stilgoe, Jeremy Sams - so in terms of
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mentoring, albeit on a short term basis, you get in contact with a lot of the people that we’re
talking about who are very, very willing and happy to share their advice.
Neil Marcus: And also there are the Tim Williams Awards, run by Bruce Wall; Stage Kindly does
a number of different shows, there are a number of different agencies, all of whom are
interested in new writing. So there’s a scene, which is really exciting.
Dougal Irvine: That’s something that I’ve noticed over the last few years, probably thanks to
Twitter, but there are so many producers out there looking for new work and really
passionate to put it on. And you will find someone out there who wants to support your work.
Andy Barnes: Twitter has had a massive impact but I think also that the Arts Council has had
a very confident shift in supporting the initiatives that people are trying to run. And of course
they can’t support everything and they can’t always support individual shows, but they have
had a really positive impact over the last three years and I think it’s a really positive time for
moving forward with them.
Neil Marcus: I think it’s no coincidence that there’s all this new work happening around their
support and of course there are development grants – Grants for All (and James would be
able to talk to members in the tea break about those) but if you want development grants
for your show, it’s not always going to get through and there is huge competition but it’s
another route
Delegate: Andy – what are the common problems when you get submissions – are there
things that you would like to say to writers?
Andy Barnes: I’ll be really honest here (I’m going to get lynched!). Laziness in submission I find
incredible; covering letters that are really poorly spelt. I know this sounds really obvious but
we get a lot of poorly presented stuff. I don’t want cool graphics or painted CD’s – it is all
about the material – but making the effort to tell us as much information about it as possible.
I mean, we just read them and ask a few people what they think and we decide together if
it’s something that we think we can do justice to or work on or not, so we don’t know all the
answers on it, but in terms of creating a really good first impression just that little bit of
effort...I’ve had scripts submitted where bits have been tippexed out and the date changed
from 2002 to 2012 and you think, could you not just print another front page and I might
never know it’s been around ten years? Stuff like that, I think you can really maximise your
chances. Ultimately, all the theatre makers, we want something good; we always try and see
past that and look at what it is but ultimately – and it came up a lot at the conference in
New York and they swear by it – it’s about a personal relationship, it’s about you getting on
with the person you’re going to have to work with really intensely and sometimes be at
loggerheads with and if you’re going to get through that you’ve got to have a trust of each
other. And I know that if I send out a letter to anyone I check it and I make sure it’s spelt right
because I want someone to look at me and see the fact that I’ve made the effort and I’ve
taken the time. If they’re going to bother to read it then I’ve put as much effort into writing it.
You’ve got the create the impression for whoever you’re submitting to – not just Perfect Pitch
but theatres - they’re going to want to work with you and they’re going to need to know
that you’re as on top of your game as them and then they’ll really buy into the material. And
there are always exceptions to the rule and I’m not saying everyone has to be computer
literate but just giving that impression is a good thing.
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Delegate: How much is it the idea that you get or is it the book, music and lyrics? Do you
read through the whole thing and then think I’ll get in touch or do you look at the idea and
think, that’s quite cool? What I’m trying to say is, when I send my show through, do you read
through the whole thing, listen to all the songs then think this sounds OK or do you look at the
first page and go “no”?
Andy Barnes: At least one of us will read the whole thing and listen to all the songs because
it’s really hard from a quick idea to get a sense of whether there’s any substance to the
writing. And also (and I’m going to get lynched again) writers don’t always write what it is
that they’ve written when talking about it or writing a covering letter. I had a famous one
where the covering letter said this is a story about Florence Nightingale but when I read the
script she was hardly in it. So we pay due heed to what’s on the page; the idea is obviously a
massive part of how we read it - we’re only human so naturally we gravitate towards an idea
that interests us - but what we do differently perhaps to commercial producers and to
venues, we’re not just looking for that thing that’s going to be a commercially wide hit and
will appeal to everybody, we’re just looking for interesting, innovative, exciting ideas.
Delegate: I suppose what I’m asking is, to get in a room with a producer and show them the
script, play them the score, talk to them, it’s a far nicer way of presenting your musical than
sending a demo and a script and is there an opening somehow to get that kind of
comment?
Andy Barnes: We held pitching days a while back; we gave ten minute slots and we sat
there and we listened and people could do what they wanted in those ten minutes and
then you find yourself twenty minutes in and wanting to talk about it a bit more and having
ninety seven appointments for coffee coming out of it and it’s quite difficult to assess in a
short space of time. And to ask you to put into ten minute excerpts what you’ve created in
your show is quite difficult. And our capacity is me full-time and two part-timers and I can’t
afford the time to have coffee with every writer that might want to
Dougal Irvine: And Perfect Pitch and MMD do incredible work but there are only a few
people in the landscape.
Neil Marcus: What’s interesting – and it goes back to what you were saying about American
personal relationships - we all need to think outside the box. What Elliot said before that noone knows anything to a degree is true. What approach is it? I would respond much better to
someone who said “I really enjoyed the show, can I go out for a coffee and have a chat
with you and here’s my musical, listen to it” and that probably gives you a much better
chance to discuss it in a relaxed environment. Sometimes there’s a degree of lateral thinking
perhaps; there is not only one approach – there are regional theatres, there are fringe
theatres, there are producers there are other development organisations – how do you
create those relationships?
Dougal Irvine: There is a company called Stage One Productions that funds a series of
producers each year – those are the kind of people I think that every new writer wants to
meet. You want to meet someone starting out who wants to produce, someone who wants
to direct and someone who wants to be in a show and try and make all those things happen
together.
Andy Barnes: Can I just make one point that I forgot to make on Tim’s question. One of the
really obvious things to me – people like Mark Shenton, myself, Dougal, Neil - we try and go
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and see as many new musical opportunities as possible. The number of times we don’t see
writers at those events for other people’s musicals I find incredible, and when we did our
pitching days and we saw something like forty to fifty writers and we asked them the last half
dozen musicals they’d seen and they’d seen Les Mis, and they’d seen Wicked but none of
them had seen other writers’ musicals. So you ask about how you get yourself up there – get
your face out there at other people’s work because it will inform your work and it will be
better because of it.
Delegate: I’d just like to back up what you were saying a moment ago; I have a show on at
the moment at a fringe venue and at the end of it two seventeen year olds came up to me
and gave me a CD of their music and it’s one of the most exciting things I’ve ever heard and
the script’s very good although it needs work. But the fact that they came to see the show
and then spoke to me afterwards was very encouraging because they’d invested in what I’d
done and that makes me feel like there’s a really good prospect in investing in them. But I
feel that the thing that really needs to be worked on is into the education system I don’t think
there’s enough data there. These two seventeen year olds have no idea where to go so how
do we get people to know that there are opportunities out there?
Neil Marcus: We have a job to do in raising our profile...
Michael Peavoy: That is an issue that I’m talking to the Soho Theatre about – creating some
kind of course or workshop for young people who want to write new musical theatre to
come in and start exploring how they can do that. It’s really early stages and it’s probably a
year or two away but as an idea, one of the things I think we do need to address is young
people writing as a lot of people who are writing are middle aged and where are the fifteen,
sixteen year olds?
Dougal Irvine: For the last two years I’ve been working with a charity called Mousetrap
Theatre Projects and we go into secondary schools and get them to write a mini-musical and
they kind of get critiqued by a panel and then do a little showcase at the Arts Theatre and
the schoolkids are so excited about this, so passionate, it’s amazing. The standard is
incredible and if I’d had that exposure when I was that age...and in the first year they
actually submitted what they’d written as part of their A level music for their exams and they
all got as high, or a grade higher than they were expected to get, which was great. So yeah,
we need more like that.
Delegate: It seems from what’s been discussed today that there is a really grassroots feel to
what’s happening development wise in all sorts of places but what I was interested to know
was whether any of you think there needs be something - whether that be educational or
development wise – something more sustained or centralised; something that’s a bit more
formal to help with the development of new musicals? Is there anything else that needs to
be added?
Andy Barnes: It depends which way you look at it. If you formalise a process you potentially
exclude other artists or if you formalise it you potentially get more traditional writers getting
better. There are pros and cons in either way.
Delegate: I suppose I’m thinking more about the educational side and in particular how
we’ve talked about young people and how they could learn more about theatre and
musical theatre.
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Neil Marcus: It’s certainly something to look at. Another development model is the universities
which we’re not that smart at here but we’re getting better. We’re beginning to work with
drama schools and universities to get work on; we’re working with the Mousetrap Theatre
Project. I think it comes down to resource and experience and time; we’re all starting out
trying to make things happen and it’s how much can we do in a short space of time. It’s
definitely on the agenda, it’s something that’s very important.
Delegate: Also, one size doesn’t fit all – you can’t centralise it.
Andy Barnes: And it has its own problems; the TISCH school is constantly criticised for churning
out similar types of writer as a result of centralising it
Dougal Irvine: One of the things that came out of this morning’s talk was that you’ve got to
give people space to play.
Delegate: I just wanted to ask whether the new musical theatre model needed a home? If a
lot of the issues are around finding a space to produce will anything majorly change unless
we have a theatre dedicated to new musicals or is that an old-fashioned model and should
we be looking at a theatre without walls?
Louise Blackwell: I’m a big fan of theatres without walls. I think there’s something reductive
about compartmentalising and closing down; I think opening it up and allowing it to have
more space for different types of work in a building that already exists or a village hall or
other places where audiences can see it is really important
Andy Barnes: I kind of agree and I also think there is value in having a place where likeminded people can meet to focus on the work that they produce, whether that is from
leftfield. I think there’s something to be said for it not always being housed in the same
building – physically or geographically – because absolutely I think that does reduce what it
might be. And the different size and scale of musicals – we’ve seen brilliant two-handers and
brilliant twenty six handers. So I think that would be a really positive step in some ways but I
think it’s also about what that is as much as where that is.
Neil Marcus: I think it’s down to resource again. For instance the National very kindly lend us
a room occasionally for this that and the other but if there was a big rehearsal facility that
was just about the development of work, not the presentation of work, that would do no
harm as another resource. And certainly if someone wanted to help us put that together that
would be useful but that’s just one element about helping you do what you do.
Dougal Irvine: I mean, the Theatre Royal Plymouth have developed a lot of musicals in the
space they’ve got there? Personally, I would love it. We’ve got the Hampstead, we’ve got
the Royal Court, we’ve got the Bush, we’ve got Soho Theatre all looking at new playwriting; it
would be amazing if we had one theatre that was just focusing on new musical theatre
Michael Peavoy: And thankfully for Steve Marmion’s broader spectrum, Soho Theatre is
looking at opening its doors to new musicals and it’s a great space. It would be amazing if
we had a theatre that was solely looking at new musicals.
Delegate: Having somewhere that said “yes we do want to put on more musicals” surely
would only encourage people to keep writing stuff? I expect writers are going to sit at home
writing but thinking there’s nowhere really for it to go and it could end up anywhere but
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could end up nowhere so to have a base, a safe place where you can go and try something
out. It doesn’t necessarily have to be for a six month commercial run...
Dougal Irvine: And people would still produce their own shows; I mean Hampstead and the
Royal Court don’t produce all the new plays there are but it would be amazing to have a
home.
Delegate: Surely it would only provide a boost. I mean, playwriting hasn’t stopped because
the Royal Court specialised in new playwrights and surely to have a home for new musical
theatre would only help
Dougal Irvine: So if there are any multi-millionaires out there....
Delegate: Going back to the education question, do you feel that the current musical
theatre training within the established training forums is not as open to devising as a practice
and do you think that potentially there is an area of development within the conservatoires
that needs to be opened up a bit away from the more commercial form of training? I’m at
the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland and we spend two weeks a year working on four new
developments two of which go to Edinburgh each year and we’ve been doing that for
seven years. On one programme we have a new work module which is developing new
writers within performance; they come in as performers, as musicians, as dancers. We have a
very collaborative ethos within the college and we now have something called Bridge Week
where the students can take a space and create something across all faculties. I wonder as
a training institution, if, at a training level, we need to be looking at how we develop?
Neil Marcus: It’s about finding those places that want it; it’s about being fit for purpose. Some
agents want to see students in their third year doing a piece they know well so they can look
at the student not the piece. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong; there are practical reasons
why drama schools won’t do it and there are practical reasons why they will. And I think this
is a conversation to have with a whole consortia of training establishments.
Delegate: I think there is something for universities and conservatoires to take up the mantle
to systematically encourage new writing. And that’s what I’m looking at, so I’m looking at
whether I should commit to a new production each year, how would I choose that
production and I’m looking for the support of some of the people on the panel. I think that’s
about how we take this forward. Rather than have university lecturers take that up, or us, we
do need to be informed by industry and I take your point that we can’t be prescriptive
about it
Delegate: I’m one of these educators that people are talking about and the university
course that we run is brand new this year. So we’re in the very fortunate position of being
able to shape our identity. And there are two things I would like to ask the panel: number
one is that everything is very London-centric at the moment; I think that MMD and MTN are in
a very fortunate position to make sure that that is not the case moving forward. We’re in the
Midlands which is not that far away but bringing our students here is quite an issue logistically.
And if everything is happening here we’re not tapping into a very talented, very promising
audience that may be our next generation of writers. The second point connected to that is
that I read an article recently that proposed that You Tube was the new Tin Pan Alley; I don’t
think that in this country we’re quite embracing the media as we should. I’m struggling to get
sheet music for academic purposes; when I’m requesting it I’m being charged phenomenal
amounts of money for one piece of sheet music. I appreciate that new writers have to earn
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a crust and it’s not that we want things for free but nor do we want to advocate piracy by
being asked for £70 for one piece of sheet music that you’re going to use in one one-to-one
session with one student. I would like the panel very quickly to come up with some ways we
can tackle this problem of getting out of London, and whether using social media is the way
to do that. If half of you people didn’t tweet I wouldn’t have a clue as to what was going on
and yet from newmusicaltheatre.com I have a better picture of what’s going on in the states
and the way they’re releasing their music than I do one hundred miles from my home.
Dougal Irvine: I remember listening to the whatsonstage podcast about the state of theatre
and they were talking about what defines success and whether it’s getting your show on in
London or not. I developed my second musical In Touch solely with Perfect Pitch but I started
off working over a few weeks with drama students at LIPA and we didn’t have a clue what
we were doing, we were just talking about the internet; and then we went to RSAMD and
worked in one of the programmes I think you were talking about and we ended up going to
Edinburgh with those students. And finally with the MTA, which is based in London we
produced it this year, and I’m about to go to Cumbria and workshop it again and do
another rewrite. So I can certainly say that Perfect Pitch are going to the regions whenever
they can.
Andy Barnes: Just to back that up, obviously we’re talking to you and several other
universities and drama colleges. The slight problem is capacity – we would love to have a
conversation and personal relationship with every drama school because what we’ve found
is that it only works on personal relationships and if that relationship isn’t there then it’s very
difficult to get into that world. So you need that one-to-one thing and that comes down to
how many days a week can you spend out of the office meeting people? I’d love to spend
a year on the road doing that. The conference I was at in New York, the universities were
coming down, like you have, and saying this is what we’re doing, this needs to happen here.
I think that is part of it. I think it’s about you letting people know what’s going on there as
much as us letting you know what’s going on here. I think there’s definitely enough writers
who will tap into it and wherever we can support those sorts of programmes, we will. Whether
that’s cutting deals with the writers to get you the sheet music for a bit, there’s something...
mutual collaborations are massive to us and I’ve not had a writer who’s said you can’t send
my sheet music to somebody. I think it is about asking.
Neil Marcus: On the music front, the MMD office is very happy to facilitate the other half of
the question and I don’t think there’ll be much of a problem, particularly if you explain why.
People want to get their work heard and appreciated and getting students into your work as
a writer opens up a whole new audience. In terms of the regions we do run programmes,
work with regional theatres as much as we can but it’s something to develop.
Michael Peavoy: On-line media thing is definitely something that needs to be addressed. If
you google new musical theatre UK you’ll struggle to find what’s going on and where it’s
going on. There are just things that I think we need to address - online some kind of network
that we need to create. Sometimes there are just too many people online and too many
people saying this is a new music network, and this is a new music network and we don’t
really know who everybody is; my website is very clear that I’m a producer but I know that
there are three or four new musical websites but which ones are updated regularly and
who’s updating them? But I know if I go to Mark’s (Shenton) blog he blogs regularly about
what he’s seen and he’s a great person to stay in touch with but I don’t think there is an
online resource in this country for new musical theatre. It’s hard because where do you get
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the resource; where do you get the money to build the site, who’s going to pay for it? Is it
MMD’s job to do that and if it’s not whose is it?
Neil Marcus: Great, thanks a lot folks. We’re going to take a break now.
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