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THURSDAY, 20 NOVEMBER 2008
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
_____
The House met at 14:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment
of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
CONGRATULATIONS TO SOUTH AFRICAN RUGBY TEAM
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Speaker, I move without
notice:
That the House –
(1) notes that the South African rugby team beat Wales 20-15 on
Saturday, 8 November 2008, and beat Scotland 14-10 on Saturday,
15 November 2008;
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(2) further notes that this means that the Springboks have already
won two of their three matches in their three-test end-ofseason tour;
(3) recognises that our national rugby team are great ambassadors
for our country and instil a sense of pride in all South
Africans;
(4) acknowledges the many exciting young rugby playing talents we
have in this country that need to be nurtured;
(5) further recognises that both these victories serve to inspire
all our young South African sportsmen and women to work hard
and to develop themselves in order to excel not only in the
field of rugby but in any field of sport so that they can also
represent South Africa in the future;
(6) wishes the Springboks well for their final match of the tour
against England on Saturday, 22 November 2008; and
(7) congratulates the Springboks on their highly successful 2008
rugby season.
Agreed to.
HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear! [Interjections.]
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The SPEAKER: Hon members, let me make this plea upfront. I know we
may be meeting for the last time, or a number of us are. There are
going to be lots of consultations, taking of particulars and so on.
I don’t want to create an environment for that here. I think it’s a
very good thing to do, for colleagues to know how they are going to
reach each other during recess and so on. But we are going to ask
the colleagues, politely, to leave the House. I would be very happy
to remain with 50 people who are dedicated to what we want to deal
with here. The Whips must please help us.
The problem is – and I’ve never wanted to do this – every time we
call you to order because of the noise, it must be captured by
Hansard. For generations and generations to come, people will read
and see that, here are these people whom they entrusted with their
lives and everything, and they are being called to order every 15
minutes.
Please, hon members, let us help each other. We are all leaders. Let
us help each other and make sure that this last day but one becomes
also a memorable day in terms of us respecting each other. I must
confess, Mr Davidson, that I struggled to hear what you said. I’m
very happy there was no opposition to it.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, shall I repeat it?
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The SPEAKER: No, unfortunately. [Laughter.] I was going to ask you
to repeat it if anyone was opposed to it. But because everybody
loved it, that was fine.
CONGRATULATIONS TO BAFANA BAFANA
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without
notice:
That the House –
(1) notes that the South African Soccer Team, Bafana Bafana, won
the Nelson Mandela Challenge Cup for the first time in four
years, beating Cameroon;
(2) further notes that this is the fourth consecutive win for
Bafana Bafana as part of their preparations for the 2010 FIFA
World Cup;
(3) believes that with this victory, Bafana Bafana is affirming
the views of stakeholders in soccer that they are progressing
in building a winning team for the 2010 FIFA World Cup to
emulate the successes of the team that was crowned Africa’s
Champions in 1996; and
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(4) congratulates Bafana Bafana on winning the match against
Cameroon and wishes them well in the coming international
engagements.
Agreed to.
SALARY PAYABLE TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the
motion printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House –
(1) in terms of section 2(1) of the Remuneration of Public Office
Bearers Act, 1998 (Act No 20 of 1998) and having due regard
to the criteria listed in that subsection, determines the
salary payable to the President of the Republic of South
Africa at two million one hundred and seven thousand two
hundred and twenty four rand (R2 107 224,00) per annum, with
effect from 1 April 2008;
(2) resolves that the structuring of the total remuneration
package should include the following elements:
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(a) A basic salary component (60 per cent of total package);
(b) an amount of one hundred and twenty thousand rand
(R120 000,00) per annum, which is an amount to which
section 8(1)(d) of the Income Tax Act, 1962, applies; and
(c) a flexible portion; and
(3) further resolves that the rules relating to structuring of the
total remuneration package should be similar to those in
respect of senior management positions in the Public Service.
Agreed to.
EXTENSION OF TERM OF AD HOC JOINT COMMITTEE TO CONSIDER DRAFT
AMENDMENT REGULATIONS TO PUBLIC FUNDING OF REPRESENTED POLITICAL
PARTIES ACT
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move the
motion printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House –
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(1)
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notes that the Ad Hoc Joint Committee to consider the Draft
amendment regulations made in terms of the Public Funding of
Represented Political Parties Act was due to report on 5
November 2008;
(2)
further notes that the Speaker had, during recess, agreed to
the request for extension of the Committee’s term until 18
November, on the understanding that the Assembly would ratify
the extension;
(3)
further notes that the Committee has on 13 November 2008
reported on its mandate; and
(4)
resolves, subject to the concurrence of the National Council
of Provinces and notwithstanding Joint Rule 138(5), to ratify
the extension of the deadline by which the Committee had to
report to 18 November 2008.
Agreed to.
NEW SOCCER STADIUMS TO CATER FOR SOCCER AND RUGBY
(Member’s Statement)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY (ANC): Madam Speaker, yesterday
the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation met with the chief
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executive officer of the 2010 Fifa Local Organising Committee, Danny
Jordaan, and representatives of host cities, namely the eThekweni,
Nelson Mandela, Mbobela and Mangaung Municipalities.
The meeting was productive and illustrated the tremendous progress
made in preparing for the hosting of the Confederations Cup and the
2010 World Cup. Challenges were identified and are in the process of
being addressed by the relevant government departments.
Unfortunately, this good news has been ignored in an Afrikaans
newspaper article that aims to deliberately distort and mislead
sections of our community. In an article written by a journalist who
attended only part of the meeting, certain statements are attributed
to ANC members of the committee. At no stage was mention made that
rugby supporters in general are criminals or that rugby must be
banned from stadiums. In fact, the ANC members encouraged the new
stadiums to become multipurpose centres of integration, used by
soccer and rugby. A call was also made for rugby administrators to
deal decisively with individuals who engage in racist criminal acts
at matches.
We will continue to highlight instances of racism where black people
are attacked and assaulted at rugby matches by racist thugs, and
where certain stadiums and facilities are not accessible for use by
the majority of our people.
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The ANC study groups and the ANC reject this malicious article with
the contempt it deserves. Thank you. [Applause.]
CALL FOR OUTCOMES-BASED EDUCATION CURRICULUM TO BE REVIEWED
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs D VAN DER WALT (DA): Madam Speaker, South Africa’s children need
a coherent, workable and practical curriculum in order to learn the
skills that will help them to drive South Africa’s future
prosperity.
The DA therefore welcomes the recognition by the Department of
Education at a recent education indaba that there are problems with
outcomes-based education that must be addressed. While this
curriculum was introduced with noble intentions, it has been
criticised by teachers, educators and educational experts for being
ambiguous, overly complicated and not prescribing clear enough
outcomes. Partly as a result of this curriculum, South African
education remains one of the worst in the developing world.
The DA very much wants our youth to be able to make a constructive
contribution to making South Africa a better place. Our education
system must provide them with the quality foundation that they need
to do this. We therefore call for this curriculum to be reviewed
urgently.
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ROAD SAFETY DURING HOLIDAY PERIOD
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs S A SEATON (IFP): Madam Speaker, the holiday season is upon us
and while this is undoubtedly a joyous time where families and
friends get together to celebrate, it is also characterised by
increased levels of traffic on our roads and extremely high numbers
of accidents.
It is with this in mind that I appeal to all road users to be
responsible and to obey the rules of the road. They must not be
reckless and impatient while driving, as this endangers not only
their own lives but those of thousands of other road users. It is
better to get to one’s destination a bit late than not at all.
Traffic officials must also be vigilant in their duties and ensure
that road users obey the law, while any indiscretions must be
punished. The carnage on our roads must be stopped and the only way
to achieve this is if we all pull together and play our part in
ensuring safety on our roads this festive season.
SIXTEEN DAYS OF ACTIVISM FOR NO VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN
CAMPAIGN
(Member’s Statement)
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Ms M M SOTYU (ANC): Madam Speaker, on Tuesday, 18 November 2008, the
Deputy Minister of Provincial and Local Government, Ms Nomatyala
Hangana, lit a peace torch that marks the 16 Days of Activism for No
Violence Against Women and Children campaign. The objective of the
campaign is to uphold the rights of citizens and restore the dignity
of the most vulnerable members of society.
The theme for this year is, “Don’t Look Away. Act Against Woman and
Child Abuse”.
The major goal and aim of the campaign are to raise awareness of the
challenges caused by societal attitudes and practices that continue
to perpetuate gender-based violence and child abuse.
The criminal justice cluster will be visiting all provinces and
interacting with the people during the period of the 16 Days of
Activism for No Violence Against Women and Children campaign.
The ANC-led government is committed to working towards the
elimination of all manifestations and consequences of patriarchy,
from the feminisation of poverty, physical and psychological abuse,
undermining of self-confidence, to open and hidden forms of
exclusion from the position of authority and power. Critical in this
regard, is the creation of material and cultural conditions that
allow abilities of women to flourish and enrich the life of the
nation. Thank you.
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FAILURE OF SADC TO END MUGABE’S STRANGLEHOLD ON ZIMBABWE
(Member’s Statement)
Rev K R J MESHOE (ACDP): Madam Speaker, the ACDP is disappointed by
the failure of SADC leaders to get tough with the Zanu PF leader, Mr
Mugabe, who wants to cling to power at all costs. We know that the
Westminster Political System allows the winner of elections to take
all, but the SADC leaders seem to want the loser to take all power
and control in Zimbabwe.
The ACDP believes the SADC leaders’ position that the Ministry of
Home Affairs, which has control over the police, be run by two
ministers belonging to two political parties defies all logic. We
believe that the MDC leader who said, “The concept of co-ministering
cannot work”, is correct.
The ACDP agrees with the Africa Director of the Human Rights Watch,
Georgette Gagnon, that the UN must intervene in the Zimbabwean
crisis to ensure that it does not become a threat to regional
stability. The SADC leaders have shown that they do not have regard
for ordinary Zimbabwean citizens who are suffering. They seem to be
only interested in protecting one of their own and it has failed
Southern African states one more time. The people expected them to
confront Mr Mugabe about the atrocities still being committed by his
armed forces and the judicial system that is still against the
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opposition and civil society despite, the accord having been signed
in September.
The ACDP further believes that our leaders should emulate the
courage of the Botswana President, Mr Ian Khama, who was courageous
enough to take a stand for justice in defence of the Zimbabwean
people, by refusing to endorse Mr Mugabe’s selfish approach to
negotiations. Zimbabwe can never have peace with a cruel dictator at
the helm. For peace to prevail, they need a leader who believes in
equality, liberty and justice for all. Thank you.
DIGNITY OF PARLIAMENT AND PARLIAMENTARY PRIVILEGE
(Member’s Statement)
Mnr W D SPIES: Agb Speaker, die beskerming van die Parlement se
waardigheid is van kardinale belang. Daarom het die Parlement ook
reëls wat sy waardigheid probeer handhaaf. Parlementslede het
voorregte en van daardie voorregte is die reg van privilegie. Dit
stel ’n parlementslid in staat om sonder vrees vir vervolging sy
vryheid van spraak te gebruik om in die openbare belang dinge te sê
wat gehoor moet word.
Privilegie kan egter ook misbruik word deur LP’s wat nie weet hoe om
verantwoordelik daarmee om te gaan nie. As ’n LP herhaaldelik
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rassisme verkondig en haat en verdeeldheid saai met wat hy in die
Parlement kwytraak, misbruik hy parlementêre privilegie.
Vanjaar het die agb Butana Khompela en sy handlanger, die agb
Cedrick Frolick, dit reeds vier keer gedoen. ’n Sportadministrateur
word voor die sportkomitee gedaag en blatant daarvan beskuldig dat
hy volgens die komitee nie omgee wanneer swartmense doodgemaak word
nie. Toe die president van Saskok, Mosh Mashishi, beledig word
deurdat gesê word dat Saskok maar net oorheers word deur ’n klomp
wittes en Indiërs, word daar niks gedoen nie.
’n Lid van die Parlement wat die komitee besoek, word weer eens
beledig en beskuldig van ’n wit mentaliteit en boeremaniere. Die
voorsitter en ook mnr Frolick doen niks daaraan nie. Gister noem die
agb Frolick rugby ’n misdadigersport – hy gebruik die Engelse term
“delinquent sport” – en hy dreig om hul stadions weg te neem.
Agb Speaker, dit is nie aanvaarbaar nie. Die VF Plus dien vandag ’n
klag van die misbruik van parlementêre privilegie by u in teen die
twee lede. Ons sien uit na die uitslag van hierdie ondersoek en ons
hoop dat u moeite sal doen om die waardigheid van die Parlement te
herstel. Ek dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans
member’s statement follows.)
[Mr W D SPIES: Hon Speaker, protecting the dignity of Parliament is
of cardinal importance. Therefore, Parliament also has rules that
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try to preserve its dignity. Members of Parliament have privileges
and one of those privileges, is the right to privilege. It enables a
Member of Parliament to exercise his freedom of speech to express,
in the interest of the public, views that should be heard, without
fear of prosecution.
Privilege, however, can also be abused by MPs who do not know how to
use it responsibly. If an MP repeatedly advocates racism and sows
division and hatred through his remarks passed in Parliament, then
he is abusing his parliamentary privilege.
This year the hon Khompela and his henchman, the hon Cedrick
Frolick, have already done this four times. A sports administrator
was charged to appear before the Committee on Sport and was
blatantly accused of, according to the committee, not caring when
black people are being killed. When the president of Sascoc, Mr Mosh
Mashishi, was insulted when it was said that Sascoc was simply being
dominated by a group of whites and Indians, nothing was done.
A Member of Parliament who visited the committee was once again
insulted and accused of having a white mentality and boorish
manners. The chairperson and also Mr Frolick, did nothing about it.
Yesterday, the hon Frolick labelled rugby a sport of criminals – he
used the English term “delinquent sport” – and threatened to close
their stadiums.
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Hon Speaker, that is not acceptable. The FF Plus, today, is lodging
a complaint of abuse of parliamentary privilege against these two
members. We look forward to the outcome of this investigation and we
hope you will spare no effort to restore the dignity of Parliament.
I thank you. [Interjections.]]
DEATH OF TWENTY-FIVE AT BUSHBUCKRIDGE
(Member’s Statement)
Mr N MASHILE (ANC): Madam Speaker, the community of Bushbuckridge
has in the past week come under a dark cloud when 25 hard-working
people lost their lives. The ANC, together with its alliance
partners, conveys its heartfelt condolences to the families and
friends of those who lost their lives in this tragic accident.
We also want to applaud the timeous attention that Mayor Milton
Morema and his dedicated councillors, MEC Jackson Mthembu and the
President of the ANC, Comrade Jacob Zuma, paid to the injured and
the bereaved family members.
This solidarity is welcomed by the people of Bushbuckridge during
this difficult time. The community is holding a memorial service
today and a mass funeral service is planned for Saturday.
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As we have entered the wet season, we as the ANC would like to
request all drivers on our roads to behave responsibly and drive
slowly during wet conditions. We further want to warn drivers to
observe road signs and rules as we approach the Christmas festive
period.
We call upon all those who have financial resources to assist the
bereaved as all of the deceased are the poorest of the poor. A trust
account for this purpose has been opened at FNB, Hazyview, account
number 62204137807. No matter how small your contributions are, they
will have a huge impact in alleviating the financial burden
experienced by these families. May they have strength to traverse
this difficult time. I thank you. [Applause.]
INFIGHTING AMONG DEMOCRATIC ALLIANCE AND INDEPENDENT DEMOCRATS
(Member’s Statement)
Mnr S SIMMONS (NA): Speaker, die gebeure die afgelope tyd in ons
land se politiek het aan ons gewys hoe selfs ’n regerende party se
arrogansie in sy gesig kan ontplof, maar dit is nie net die
regerende party wat met probleme sit nie. (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraph follows.)
[Mr S SIMMONS (NA): Speaker, the events taking place in recent times
in our country’s politics, showed us how even a ruling party’s
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arrogance could blow up in its face, but it is not only the ruling
party which has its problems.]
This past weekend we saw one of South Africa’s biggest acts of
desperation from the DA. They should have renamed themselves the
“Desperate Alliance”. [Laughter.]
The Business Day earlier this year reported that the DA is
struggling with infighting in its parliamentary caucus. This was
followed by the City of Cape Town Councillor Grant Pascoe’s
confirmation of the racist tendencies within the DA. The same goes
for the ID.
They are unfortunately not here today.
They should call themselves the “Idiotic Democrats”. [Laughter.]
[Interjections.]
Die OD het van dag een af probleme ervaar. Die onlangse bedanking
van die voormalige onderburgemeester van Kaapstad, Charlotte
Williams, oortuig my dat Mitchells Plain verlore is vir die OD. Die
NA sal dit met graagte oorneem, dankie! (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraph follows.)
[The ID has been experiencing problems since day one. The recent
resignation of the former deputy mayor of Cape Town, Charlotte
Williams, convinces me that Mitchells Plain is lost to the ID. The
NA will gladly have it, thank you!]
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Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: If the hon
member is referring to our caucus, can he just explain who he is
representing because I don’t know that he has caucus members.
[Laughter.]
Mnr S SIMMONS (NA): Aan die agb De Lille wil ek sê: as jy vir my
iets wil sê, kom sê dit vir my persoonlik en nie vir my personeel in
die gange nie. Die twee genoemde partye het nooit belanggestel om
die voortslepende diskriminasie teen ons mense, onder andere die
bruinmense en Indiërs, te ontbloot nie, maar ons mense sal antwoord
by die stembus. Ek dank u. [Applous.](Translation of Afrikaans
paragraph follows.)
[Mr S SIMMONS (NA): To the hon De Lille I would like to say: if you
wish to tell me something, say it to me personally and not to my
staff in the corridors. The two parties referred to were never
interested in exposing the ongoing discrimination against our
people, amongst others the coloureds and Indians, but our people
will answer at the polls. I thank you. [Applause.]]
PROBLEMS IN THE ECONOMY
(Member’s Statement)
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Mr L M GREEN (FD): Madam Speaker, Minister Trevor Manuel has assured
us that South Africa is not facing a recession. However, he did warn
that growth would not be as high as had been predicted.
I think he indicated figures of between 3% to 3,5%. Yet when the
United States, which is the biggest economy, shows just as much as a
fraction of a decline in its growth, it fears that a recession may
be looming. And, in fact, that is what is happening in the US right
now. Although America has the money to bail out its faltering
economy, there are clear signs that it is in a recession.
We have similar problems which impact on the growth of our economy.
I accept that the Minister of Finance said that technically speaking
we are not in a recession, because we have not had two quarters of
negative growth in succession.
However, our unemployment rate is far worse than that of the USA,
Germany or Japan. We have had a number of years of unemployment in
South Africa. So in that regard we can say that we have been in a
recession for several years.
Although it is said that we are not technically in recession and
that we can weather the global economic crisis, we must ask the
Minister and the Treasury to give us an idea at what expense this
would be to the general public.
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If the Treasury insists that our economy is not in a recession ...
[Time expired.]
CLOSURE OF ABALONE FISHERY
(Member’s Statement)
Mr S E OPPERMAN (DA): Madam Speaker, it has been approximately one
year since the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism decided
to close the abalone fishery. It is now time for him to reconsider
his decision. The decision to close the fishery has caused much
hardship for coastal communities. The Minister promised a social
relief plan for the fishers but this was not delivered.
This year in September, I asked the Minister in a parliamentary
question whether his department’s efforts to reduce abalone poaching
have been successful. The Minister said that poaching has been
reduced. If this is true, then it is time to look again at whether
the fishery can be opened in at least some of the zones.
I want to remind the Minister that the 2007-08 scientific report
from the abalone working group stated that four zones could have
small legal abalone fisheries. Yet he still closed all the
fisheries. The report also says that if poaching could be brought
under control in Zones A and B, the areas east of Hermanus, then
those zones could support a large, legal abalone fishery.
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If the Minister says that the poaching of abalone has been reduced,
then he must consider opening the abalone fisheries again. I thank
you. [Applause.]
HOUSING DELIVERY
(Member’s Statement)
Nksz N B DAMBUZA (ANC): Enkosi Somlomo, umpoposho ungonikezelo
ngezindlu. Urhulumente osezintanjeni okhokelwa ngumbutho wesizwe iANC ubambisene nemibutho yasekuhlaleni usebenzela ngalo lonke ilixa
ukuba abantu bakuthi babenophahla phezu kweentloko zabo. Esi sesinye
zezindululo mhla abantu beli bequlunqa umqulu wenkululeko ngonyaka
we-1955.Ukukhawulelana nesi sindululo urhulumente wephondo leMpuma
Koloni okhokelwa ngumbutho wesizwe iANC uye wanikezela ngezindlu
ezingamakhulu amahlanu -500 kubahlali bengingqi ekuthiwa yiAddo.
Abona bantu abaya kuthi baxhamle kolu nikezelo ngezindlu ngabantu
abasebenza ezifama, emakhitshini, abantu abakhubazekileyo kunye
nabantu abangaqeshwanga. Umbutho weSizwe iANC uqinisekisa abantu
bakuthi, ukuthi siyakuwuqinisa umqolo ekuziseni iinkonzo
zikarhulumente eluntwini, ezifana namanzi ugutyul’ondle kunye
nezindlu. Ndiyabulela. (Translation of isiXhosa member’s statement
follows.)
[Ms N B DAMBUZA (ANC): Madam Speaker, this statement is about the
handing over of houses. The ANC-led government, in partnership with
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civic organisations, is striving all the time to provide people with
a roof over their heads. This was one of the proposals made by the
people of South Africa when they formulated the Freedom Charter in
1955. In the spirit of this proposal, the provincial government of
the Eastern Cape, which is led by the ANC, handed over 500 houses to
the people of Addo. The beneficiaries in this instance were
farmworkers, domestic workers, the disabled and unemployed people.
The ANC assures people that it will do everything in its power to
provide them with government services, such as water, sewage and
houses. Thank you.]
CHALLENGES FACING GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS DURING FLOODS
(Member’s Statements)
Mr N SINGH (IFP): Madam Speaker, the IFP is aware of the challenges
faced by various government departments that are charged with the
responsibility of reconstruction in flood ravaged and storm ravaged
areas.
In an area in the Overberg 36 learners have missed their
examinations. The Department of Water Affairs and Forestry is faced
with the problem of dams bursting and causing floods. The Department
of Environmental Affairs and Tourism is faced with the problem of
rehabilitating environments destroyed by heavy rains and storms.
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The incidents that occurred last week in a place called Molweni
Hillcrest in Kwazulu-Natal, where many homes were destroyed and
lives lost within minutes of a tornado moving through the area,
shows it leaves a lot to be desired when we have to talk about the
way in which these RDP homes were constructed.
We, as the IFP, believe that before this happens again, there should
be a national investigation into all post-1994 homes to ensure that
the residents who occupy those homes live in a safe environment.
Whilst we appreciate that global warming and other factors lead to
these circumstances, people have a right to live in homes that they
can feel safe in. Thank you.
PROMULGATION OF SOCIAL ASSISTANCE AMENDMENT ACT
(Member’s Statement)
Mr T M MASUTHA (ANC): Madam Speaker, on 14 July 2008 the President
promulgated the Social Assistance Amendment Act, giving effect to
changes in the law in order for men and women to qualify for social
grants from the same age of 60 years, which is in line with the ANC
Polokwane resolution of December 2007.
This amendment provides for men aged 63 with effect from 14 July
2008, men aged 61 with effect from 1 April 2009 and men aged 60 with
effect from 1 April 2010 to qualify for social grants.
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We as the ANC, however, eagerly await government’s decision to raise
the age of eligibility for the child support grant from under 14
years of age to 18 years of age so that it can be brought in line
with another important Polokwane resolution and the South African
Constitution in this regard, thereby extending that grant to an
additional estimated 2,1 million poor children who desperately need
this support.
Finally, we urge government to provide more resources towards the
provision of social relief to those destitute families and
individuals who desperately need this support and who may not
qualify for the social grants especially during this period of
giving; and we urge the Ministers of Social Development and Finance
respectively, to expedite finalisation of government policy in this
regard. Thank you.
FAILURE BY DEPARTMENTS TO DELIVER ON PROJECTIONS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M SWART (DA): Madam Speaker, every year government departments
compile and submit to Parliament their strategic plans for the
ensuing year. These plans are beautifully printed, glossy documents
setting out the key indicators to be achieved by departments.
Unfortunately, one gets the impression that once the document has
been compiled and submitted to Parliament it is filed away only to
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be retrieved for superficial updating the following year. Nothing or
very little happens in-between to actually try to achieve the
indicators set out in the strategic objectives.
Examples of this are aplenty, but allow me to give you just one
example, that of the Department of Communications. In the 2008
Adjusted Estimates of National Expenditure document, the mid-year
performance stages of the department is as follows: They indicated a
number of Dinaledi schools to get Information and Communication
Technologies connected - proposed 250, achieved zero; the percentage
of public broadcaster infrastructure digitised as a percentage plan
for population coverage - proposed 50%, achieved 0%; the number of
reports on corporate governance of public entities – proposed two,
achieved nil; the number of stadiums with ICT infrastructure for
2010 - proposed five stadiums, achieved nil; percentage operational
submarine cables - proposed 25%, achieved 0%; and so the list goes
on.
Departments continue to fail to deliver against their own
performance indicators, but directors-general continue to receive
performance bonuses. The DA calls on government, and particularly,
the portfolio committees, to take their oversight function seriously
and to take action against nonperforming departments and DGs. Thank
you. [Applause.]
CONDOLENCES ON LIVES LOST DURING DISASTERS
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(Member’s Statement)
Mr S L TSENOLI (ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC wishes to convey its
deepest condolences to all the families who have lost their loved
ones during the recent disasters. We also convey our heart felt
appreciation for the efforts of community development workers, ward
committee members, volunteers, council and department officials including public representatives - who took proactive steps to
prevent and help mitigate the impact of these disasters in, for
example, the Free State, the Western Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and other
provinces.
The ANC further urges all stakeholders to prioritise disaster
management, not only to defend life and limb, but also to protect
the infrastructure that we have put in place.
The ANC also urges government at all levels, national and provincial
and including local level, to improve its response time so that we
really minimise the impact of these natural and manmade disasters
when they do occur. Thank you. [Applause.]
PROMULGATION OF SOCIAL ASSISTANCE AMENDMENT ACT
(Minister’s Response)
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The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, I would like to
agree with the statement made by the hon Masutha. First of all, I
think he must have heard that the Minister of Finance, in the budget
statement that he made a week or two ago, has given out R500 million
for social relief of distress and we only received that budget on
Tuesday of this week. We are in the process of trying to ensure that
it is delivered to those that need it and those that qualify. It
will be good for all of us to work with the department and the SA
Social Security Agency to ensure that almost everybody gets what he
or she is entitled to.
Secondly, on the issue of children, six to 16, up to 18, Mr Masutha
knows very well that we agreed on that issue as early as 2001, as a
child is a child until he or she is 18 years old.
On the question of Polokwane, he knows very well that Polokwane
happened only in December last year, and by that time the budget had
already been agreed to. It will take some time before that budget is
accepted by government. We hope that we’ll be able to work on that.
For instance, on 1 January 2009, all children of about 15-years-old
will receive a child support grant, and we will move, as I said in
my budget speech, year by year until we are able to fulfil that for
all the children. Thank you.
FAILURE OF SADC TO END MUGABE’S STRANGLEHOLD ON ZIMBABWE
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(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Chairperson, SADC’s extraordinary
summit held in early November 2008 reconfirms its commitment to
finding a solution to the situation in Zimbabwe. It seeks to ensure
that the implementation of the September global agreement is
expedited, and is also providing practical solutions to the
remaining challenges in the allocation of the portfolios or
Ministries.
Now the ball is in the court of the leaders of the parties involved
in Zimbabwe to take the process forward by going back to Parliament
and effecting the necessary legislative changes so that they can
implement the agreement.
Hon Meshoe has suggested that this matter should be elevated to the
UN. It is not very clear what the UN could do because, really, it is
the people of Zimbabwe who should be tasked with ensuring that they
resolve their own problems with all the assistance they are getting
from SADC for now. I thank you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Hon Members, could we please
have some quiet. I do not know whether it is just because my left
ear is more sensitive than my right one, but most of the noise seems
to be emanating from there. Could we please keep the noise level
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down? [Interjections.] Please hon members, keep the noise level
down.
Mrs S A SEATON: Chairperson, I think your right ear has already been
deafened. [Laughter.]
PROBLEMS IN THE ECONOMY
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (Dr R H Davies):
Chairperson, I wanted to respond to the statement made by the hon
Louis Green, but since he has left the House, I thought that perhaps
after that Sarah Palin-style exegesis on economics it is probably
just as well. But for his benefit later on, as well as for anybody
else’s, the facts are as follows. The IMF, which has actually
consistently under-called the extent of the economic crisis, has
said that next year the developed world as a whole will be in
recession, that is to say, their economies will contract for two
quarters.
The developing world as a whole will not go into recession, but will
suffer reduced growth. I think where we need to be very clear is
that we are not saying that because we won’t be in a recession next
year that we won’t be seriously affected by an economic crisis, one
which is not of our making and has its origins in the USA. We are
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going to be affected by the decline in economic growth in the world
as a whole; the decline in demand and export opportunities and
prices for mineral products as well as a decline in flows of capital
particularly to emerging markets.
What this requires of us is that we are going to have to redouble
our efforts under much more difficult circumstances to defend our
infrastructure investment programmes, industrial policy direction
programmes and our small business programmes. All of them are going
to have to unfold under much more difficult circumstances.
That is where the real economic policy debate would be. Also, I
rather suspect that the voters of the country would respond in the
same way as they did to Sarah Palin - they will roundly reject those
politicians who stand up and have nothing sensible to say about
these very important matters. I thank you very much. [Applause.]
SIXTEEN DAYS OF ACTIVISM FOR NO VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN
CAMPAIGN
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT:
Chairperson, I would like to commend the Safety and Security and the
Justice clusters for doing what they are doing. They are indeed
committing themselves to an active programme with communities
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throughout the country in terms of promoting the 16 days of
activism. As you might well be aware, the programme itself is
actually a 365-day programme.
The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development is
committed to the theme of the programme. In fact, it anchors its
programme on converting our homes into havens of safety and peace,
given the high incidence of social crimes. As such we would, amongst
other things, be promoting a knowledge and awareness of domestic
violence and its implications for society.
We certainly take heart from the fact that a collective - the
committee of safety and security, as well as Justice and
Constitutional Development - is going to be promoting the importance
of the victim’s charter throughout the country. We believe that this
is as an important task and responsibility that Parliament is
assuming. We certainly do wish to express our gratitude to
Parliament for taking these important issues to our people so that
we could indeed make a difference in the lives of our people. I
thank you. [Applause.]
CALL FOR OUTCOMES-BASED EDUCATION CURRICULUM TO BE REVIEWED
(Minister’s Response)
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, I really cannot
understand the DA’s call for an urgent review of the curriculum. As
they are supposed to know, the curriculum has indeed been reviewed
by the Chisholm Review Committee in the year 2000. The product of
this revian is the National Curriculum Statement that had been
welcomed by all serious commentators and role-players at the time.
The result has been better curriculum design and specific guidelines
to schools. Of course we are facing many problems in education, and
the implementation of the new curriculum is one of the tougher
challenges. We acknowledge that the implementation and training have
not been smooth and that we as policy-makers have not always
responded adequately to the difficulties that teachers and
administrators have faced in implementing these immense changes. We
will, indeed, intensify support and training in 2009.
The key challenges are teacher development and support, resources
such as good textbooks and user-friendly guidelines for teachers. We
are working to meet these needs and address the gaps that hinder
quality learning and teaching for all. We are also working to
enhance the curriculum skills of relevant officials. We will
continue to work at ironing out the problems and improving
schooling. But throwing out the curriculum and going back to the
past design will not give us the success which South Africa must
achieve.
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Eerder as om te volg wat in die ANC gebeur as ons die probleme erken
en sê ons gaan dit aanspreek, moet die DA ons eerder help, saam met
al die ander partye en die hele gemeenskap, om seker te maak dat ons
hierdie kurrikulum instel op ’n wyse wat tot almal se voordeel is.
(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Rather than follow what happens in the ANC when we admit to the
problems and say that we will address them, the DA should assist us,
together with all the other parties and the entire community, to
ensure that we implement this curriculum in a manner that will be
beneficial to everyone.]
So, let’s mend it, not end it. Thank you. [Applause.]
NATIONAL PROSECUTING AUTHORITY AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Report)
There was no debate.
Declarations of vote:
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, we stand here today listening to
the ANC ring the death knell of the Scorpions only because they can.
This utterly self-serving move is being made in the total absence of
any cogent argument from them as to why the Directorate. Special
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Operations should be disbanded and the only logical conclusion is
that they are motivated by the desire to protect ANC members from
any current and future corruption investigations.
We all know yet another member of the ANC NEC bit the dust last
night. Communist and ANC Secretary-General Gwede Mantashe has stated
that, “The only thing that the DA and the Scorpions have in common
is their persistent hatred of the ANC.” This makes it crystal clear
that the ANC top structure opposes the DSO on the grounds of
political expediency and that this decision has absolutely nothing
to do with improving the criminal justice system.
We must factor in that the charges of corruption and defeating the
ends of justice would not have been brought against National Police
Commissioner Jackie Selebi had it not been for investigations
carried out by the DSO.
The same is true in the case of the indictment that has been brought
against the ANC President Jacob Zuma, which includes the taking of
783 bribes to the total value of R4,2 million over a ten-year
period.
Now the ANC’s resolution to disband the DSO not only displays a
flagrant disregard for public opinion, but also ignores the Khampepe
Commission recommendation that it be retained in its current form.
South Africa cannot afford to be without an independent unit capable
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of conducting complex and high-profile investigations and seeing
them through to successful prosecution.
The DSO is the last remaining institution that could possibly be
effective in exposing corruption and dealing with complex
investigations such as those related to organised crime. If we lose
the DSO, we will lose this ability and allow criminal syndicates to
contribute even more to our already dangerously high levels of
organised crime. And, simultaneously, we will lose international
credibility as investors would see that the government is not
serious in combating crime, while globally crime fighters will shake
their heads in utter disbelief at such a shortsighted step.
The DSO differs from the SAPS in that it makes use of a troika of
activities, intelligence gathering, criminal investigation and
prosecution taking place within one team. This powerful combination
of skills and expertise, led by a qualified and experienced
prosecutor, means that the DSO is able to conduct investigations
that are solid and stand up in court. This is the reason behind its
excellent conviction record of 94%.
The DSO is effective because of its prosecution approach. It’s the
very heart of the DSO. Now you intend to pull out the few staff
members, who are the cream of the crop left in the unit you set out
to destroy, and move them into the SAPS with its dismal prosecution
levels.
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Not one of you has told the citizens of South Africa why you are so
set on destroying such a success story instead of expanding it and
having the SAPS learn from it while working with it.
Adv P S SWART: Chairperson, today, again, we witness the final nail
in the coffin of the Scorpions. The ACDP has been at the forefront
in opposing the disbanding of the Scorpions. The matter we supported
was to accept set recommendations of the Khampepe Commission and to
keep the unit separate from the SAPS.
In our view the decision to disband the Scorpions was not motivated
by the Scorpions having been unsuccessful. It was rather motivated
by the fact that the Scorpions have been too successful,
particularly in its investigation of high-ranking ANC members. We
are mindful of the Scorpions’ shortcomings, however, but believe
that these shortcomings were adequately addressed by the Khampepe
Commission’s recommendations and those should have been incorporated
into legislation.
We are extremely concerned regarding the impact that this disbanding
will have on complex cases. We have already pointed out the Fidentia
case with 73 000 applicants, orphans and widows, whom are affected
by this case. As we’ve said, organised crime is a serious threat to
South Africa; if left unchecked it could undermine the integrity of
our whole country, especially since it promotes all facets of life
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and undermines government systems, including the whole criminal
justice system.
Now, to illustrate this point, the Acting Head of the NPA warns that
the collapse of just a few of the Scorpions’ cases could bring South
Africa’s criminal justice system into disrepute; and the reckless
disbanding of the Scorpions, as we are doing today, could devastate
the whole criminal justice system. This is not our view but that of
the Head of the National Prosecuting Authority.
At the very least, as we recommended, an interim investigating
directorate should have been set up, as requested by the NPA, as a
transitional process to ensure that certain complex and
controversial cases such as Fidentia should not be compromised. It
is outrageous that the Scorpions are being disbanded, in our view,
to protect senior ANC members from being investigated, particularly
considering the escalating and highly complex nature of organised
crime in our country, which affects all of our constituencies,
communities and members.
We cannot afford to lose highly experienced and trained
investigators and analysts who would not be prepared to accept posts
in the SAPS and who are now being drawn to the private sector.
To conclude, the Khampepe Commission stated in no uncertain terms
that ... [Interjections.] It is inconceivable, friends and
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colleagues, in other words, it’s unimaginable for a legislature to
see fit to repeal the provisions of the NPA Act that relate to the
activities and location of the DSO. What the majority party is doing
today is what the Judicial Commission of Inquiry considered
inconceivable in view of the high crime rate in South Africa.
Therefore, the ACDP will not support this Bill. I thank you.
Mnu V B NDLOVU (IFP): Sihlalo, igama lami nginguVelaphi wakwaNdlovu.
Sihlalo, neNdlu eHloniphekile, cha, umthetho lo esingeke siwusekele,
ngalezi zizathu: Okokuqala, sasho sathi kunesidingo sokuthi kufuneka
sibenze bakwazi ukusebenza, hayi i-Hollywood style kodwa
singabaqedi. Okwesibili, siyazi ukuthi kwenzelwani lokhu
okwenziwayo. Ngakusho nangaleliya langa sivota sivotela wona lo
Mthethosivivinywa, ukuthi noma singathini thina maqembu aphikisayo,
uma sebenqumile osibanibani, kusuke sebenqumile. Ukuthi banquma
kuphi, kusuke sebenqumile ... unganikini ikhanda Mhlonishwa ngoba
ngizosuke ngikubize ngegama lapha.
Ngakho-ke uma sebekwenzile lokho, kusuke sebekwenzile lokho.
Okwesithathu, kuyinkinga kakhulu kabi ukuthi sithi: into esebenzayo
ayisebenzi siyibulale nokuthi siyilungise. Kufana nokuzala ingane
ekhaya uyikhululise, uma ingalungile uyakhuluma nayo, uhlale nayo
phansi ukwazi ukuyiyala yenze umsebenzi wayo ngokufanelekile. Kepha
awuthi ngoba nakhu akuyona eyakho noma mhlawumbe awunandaba nayo
obese ubeka ikhanda ngale bese uyinqamula intamo. Ngakho-ke asikwazi
ukukwenza lokho, ngeke siwamukele lomthetho noma ningangibhekisa
20 NOVEMBER 2008
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phansi ngekhanda. Ngeke kwenzeke lokho. (Translation of isiZulu
speech follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU (IFP): Chairperson, my name is Velaphi Ndlovu.
Chairperson, and this august House, we will never vote in favour of
this Bill because of the following reasons: Firstly, we said that we
need to employ people who know how to execute their duties, and not
the ones who use Hollywood style. Secondly, we know why things are
run in this fashion. I did mention even on the day we were voting on
this Bill that, whatever we say as opposition parties does not
matter; when the ruling party has decided upon something, no
correspondence can be entered into. It does matter what they have
decided upon, the fact that they have made their decision stands...
do not shake your head hon member, because I will call you by name.
Therefore, once they do something it cannot be changed. Thirdly, it
is a major problem for us to say that we rule out something, saying
that it is not working when we have not tried to correct it. This is
like bringing a child into this world; if the child is misbehaving
you talk and offer guidance to it so that it can behave as expected.
You do not behead a child because it is not yours or because you do
not care about it. Likewise we cannot do that here, hence we vote
against this Bill. You can point at me with your heads. It will
never be passed.]
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Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, volgens Hansard, op die
geleentheid van die instelling van die Skerpioene, het niemand
minder as die agb Adjunkminister van Justisie, in sy toespraak,
eintlik ’n aanprysing gehad vir die politieke partye in hierdie Huis
wat politiek nie deel maak van die bekamping van misdaad nie. Tog,
as dit kom by die ontbinding van die Skerpioene, dan is dit juis die
ANC wat ’n politieke besluit geneem het om die Skerpioene te
ontbind.
As ons byvoorbeeld gaan kyk na die 2002 nasionale konferensie van
die ANC, sien ons dat hulle aanprysing gehad het vir die Skerpioene.
Wat het die ANC destyds gedoen? Hulle het by hul nasionale
konferensie gespog oor hoe goed hulle regeer, deur die prestasies
van die Skerpioene op te haal. Daar vertel hulle vir die
afgevaardigdes dat dit is hoe misdaad eintlik behoort beveg te word.
By hulle 2007 konferensie kom die ANC egter met ’n politieke besluit
wat hulle nie eens by die konferensie motiveer nie. Hulle neem net
’n besluit en verklaar dat die Skerpioene ontbind moet word, omdat
dit grondwetlik verkeerd is om Skerpioene te hê, omdat die Grondwet
bepaal dat daar slegs een polisiediens mag wees.
Maar die ANC weet mos hulle is verkeerd. Regter Khampepe het mos
baie duidelik bevind en beslis dat dit nie ongrondwetlik is om die
Skerpioene as deel van die Nasionale Vervolgingsgesag te gehad het
nie.
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Daarom sê die VF Plus dat die ontbinding van die Skerpioene ’n
politieke besluit was wat gebaseer was op ’n verkeerde
veronderstelling van die interpretasie van die Grondwet van SuidAfrika.
Ek wil vir u sê dat die sukses van die Skerpioene juis hul
vervolgingsgedrewe ondersoeke is. Hulle kon daardie ondersoeke loods
in uiters ingewikkelde, gesofistikeerde sake, want die misdadigers
van Suid-Afrika het meer en meer gesofistikeerd geraak.
Ek wil vandag vir u sê dat die nuwe agb Minister van Veiligheid en
Sekuriteit die regte geluide maak. Dit wat hy in die openbaar en vir
die publiek sê, klink reg, asof hy regtig misdaad wil bekamp. Maar,
hy het een groot probleem. Ek wil voorspel dat hy in die voetspore
van sy voorganger, mnr Charles Ngqakula, gaan volg, deurdat hy dink
hy iets kan doen, maar die beleid van die ANC gaan hom eenvoudig
dwing om toe te laat dat misdaad eintlik net floreer.
Die besluit om die Skerpioene te ontbind het gewys dat u van die
ANC, die regerende party, nie ernstig is om misdaad te bekamp nie.
Daarom was dit ’n fout. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech
follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, according to Hansard, in his
speech on the occasion of the establishment of the Scorpions, no
less a person than the hon Deputy Minister of Justice, actually
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commended the political parties in this House for not making
politics a part of the combating of crime. Yet, when it comes to
disbanding the Scorpions, it is in fact the ANC who have taken a
political decision to disband the Scorpions.
If we take a look at the ANC’s national conference in 2002, we see
that they had praise for the Scorpions. What did the ANC do back
then? At their national conference they bragged about how well they
were governing by bringing up the achievements of the Scorpions.
They were telling delegates there that this is how crime ought to be
combated.
But at their 2007 conference the ANC came with a political decision
which they didn’t even motivate at the conference. They just took a
decision and declared that the Scorpions had to be disbanded because
it was constitutionally incorrect to have the Scorpions, as the
Constitution stated that there should be only one police force.
But of course the ANC knows that they are wrong. Judge Khampepe
indeed clearly found and ruled that it was not unconstitutional to
have the Scorpions as part of the National Prosecuting Authority.
The FF Plus therefore says that the disbanding of the Scorpions was
a political decision based upon an incorrect assumption of the
interpretation of the Constitution of South Africa.
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I want to tell you that the success of the Scorpions lay in their
prosecution-driven investigations. They could institute those
inquiries into extremely complicated, sophisticated cases, because
the South African criminals were becoming more and more
sophisticated.
Today I want to tell you that the new hon Minister of Safety and
Security is making the right noises. What he is saying in public
sounds right, as if he truly means to combat crime. But he has one
big problem. I want to predict that he will follow in the footsteps
of his predecessor, Mr Charles Ngqakula, by thinking that he is in a
position to do something, but the policy of the ANC is simply going
to force him into allowing crime actually to flourish.
The decision to disband the Scorpions has proven that you of the
ANC, the ruling party, are not serious about fighting crime. That is
why it was a mistake. I thank you.]
Ms M M SOTYU: Chairperson, I won’t repeat what we said here when we
were debating these two pieces of legislation.
Dit is baie interessant om ’n lid te wees van die ANC, want as mense
hoof- of maagpyne kry, is die oorsaak altyd die ANC. [Being a member
of the ANC is very interesting, because when people get headaches or
bellyaches, the cause is always the ANC.]
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Asizi kukuphinda esakutshoyo apha, baba uNdlovu, ukuba akukho nto
intsha enize ngayo niliqela eliphikisayo. Nisathetha laa nto
naniyithethile. Kuzanyiwe ngazo zonke iindlela ukuqinisekisa ukuba
lo mthetho asiwuphumezi. Imibutho ephikisayo izame iinkundla
zamatyala isebenzisa abantu bangaphandle, ibahlawula ukuze basise
ezinkundleni zamatyala, yoyisakala. Izame ukufakela amagatya athile
kule Mithetho iYilwayo mbini, kwiBhunga laMaphondo leSizwe.
Sawakhaba loo magatya. Ngexesha esasithatha isigqibo apha kule
Palamente siyi-ANC, sikunye nani, sayibeka elubala into yokuba asizi
kuthenga buso.ngesigqibo sethu. Into engamandla apha kukuba silwe
ubundlobongela , hayi ukuzithengisa. Ukuba kukho iqela elithi apha
lo Mthetho uYilwayo siwuqulunqileyo siyi-ANC uza kwenza ukuba abantu
bangabi ngakuthi kuba benoluvo lokuba awulunganga, loo nto siya
kuyibona kulo nyaka uzayo ngoApreli. (Translation of isiXhosa
paragraph follows.)
[We are not going to repeat what we said here, hon Ndlovu, but you
are not bringing anything new to the table as the opposition party.
You are simply repeating what you had said before. Opposition
parties tried by all means to make sure that we do not pass this
Bill. They tried to stop us, using people from civil society by
paying them to take us to court, and failed. They also tried to
insert some clauses in these two Bills, in the National Council of
Provinces. We rejected them. When we took a decision in this regard
as the ANC, and other parties, we mentioned that we did so without
fear or favour. The important thing here is to fight crime, not to
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market ourselves. Any party that claims that the Bill proposed by
the ANC will make people turn against it because they will regard
the Bill as not good, we will see about that next year in April.]
As the chairperson of the safety and security portfolio committee,
it is so nice to have members of the opposition, especially the hon
Kohler-Barnard.
Hayi, yimbongi leya! Uyakwazi ukuyenza intsomi emini. Ndiyakonwabela
kakhulu ukuba kwikomiti enaye. Uya kuze aniculele, athethe ade
agqibe ningakhange nimve ukuba utheni na; njengangokuya ebethetha
apha. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[My, what a poet! She can tell folktales in daytime. I enjoy being
in the same committee as her. She would talk - kind of singing - and
talk, without making much sense, like she was doing here.]
The only problem she has is that when you talk about the national
commissioner, she is not concerned about the position of the
national commissioner. In her mind, you are always referring to
Jackie Selebi when you talk about the national commissioner.
[Interjections.] It is only Jackie Selebi. [Interjections.] There is
no case whatsoever that is being dealt with ...
... eza kuvele iphelele emoyeni. Onke amatyala aza kuphathwa
ngokufanayo, kubandakanywa nelikaJackie Selebi. Ukuba unengxaki
noJackie Selebi, hamba uye kuyisombulula noJackie Selebi, ungazi
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nayo apha. Ndiyabulela, Sihlalo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph
follows.)
[... which will disappear in the air. All the cases will be treated
equally including the one of Jackie Selebi. If you have a problem
with Jackie Selebi, go to him and solve it, do not come here with
it. Thank you, Chairperson.]
Division demanded.
Question put: That the National Prosecuting Authority Amendment
Bill, as amended, be passed.
House divided:
AYES - 204: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Asiya, S E;
Baloyi, M R; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bonhomme, T J;
Booi, M S; Burgess, C V; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chikunga, L S;
Chohan, F I; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H ; De Lange, J
H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D
M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Fankomo, F C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla,
N B; Frolick, C T; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H;
Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Godongwana, E; Gololo,
C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Gxowa,
N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A;
Huang, S; Jacob, A C; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B;
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 48 of 125
Johnson, M; Jordan, Z P; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C
D; Kgabi, L M; Khauoe, M K; Khumalo, K K; Komphela, B M; Koornhof,
G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J
T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabaso, S B; Mabena, D
C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlawe,
N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C;
Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke,
D K; Manana, M N S; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashigo, R J;
Mashile, B L; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Matlala,
M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S
M; Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Meruti, M V; Mfeketo, N C; Mgabadeli, H
C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M
S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng , T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D;
Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Moiloa-Nqodi, S B; Mokoena, A D;
Mokoto, N R; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D;
Moonsamy, K; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K
W; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M
B; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J
H; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndzanga, R A; Nene, M J ; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S;
Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N
W; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe,
M A A; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; NwamitwaShilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nyambi, A J; Nyembe, K K M;
Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D;
Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P
M; Rasmeni, S M; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A;
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 49 of 125
Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M ; Sekgobela, S P; Selau, J G; September,
C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S ;
Sikakane, M R; Sizani, S; Skhosana, D N; Skhosana, W M; Smith, V
G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E;
Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thomson, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S
L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den
Heever, R P Z; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Wright, F J;
Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 55: Bekker, Dr H J; Bici, J; Blanché, J P I; Boinamo, G G;
Botha, C-S; Camerer, S M; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P;
Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; George, D T; Groenewald, P J;
Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard,
D; Labuschagne, L B; Lebenya, P; Marais, S J F; Mfundisi, I S;
Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P
W A; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A H; Nkabinde, N C; Rabie, P J; Schmidt, H
C; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Sibuyana, M
W; Sigcau , S N; Singh, N; Skosana, M B; Smuts, M; Spies, W D;
Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Trent,
E W; Van Der Walt, D; Vos, S C; Waters, M; Weber, H; Woods, G G;
Zikalala, C N Z.
Question agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.
SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 50 of 125
(Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)
There was no debate.
Declarations of vote:
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, from the outset the DSO had been
envisaged as a specialised unit to be independent of SAPS, and
certainly not to replace it.
Now there has also been a Constitutional Court ruling that the term
“single police” does not mean one police service. Furthermore, the
Khampepe Commission found that the DSO should remain in the NPA.
Given the international precedent for the DSO, as well as its
impressive list of achievements, one wonders why the question to
disband the DSO even arises.
Indeed, hon Carrim agreed with me that had the relevant Ministers
for Justice and Constitutional Development and of Safety and
Security, now safely ensconced elsewhere, actually done their jobs,
we would never have had to go through the past 11-month debacle.
The DA said shutting down the DSO would drive the bulk of their
specialists into the private sector, which it has and that we, as a
country, would be collectively worse off for having lost the DSO
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 51 of 125
without SAPS succeeding in improving its skills base. Indeed, we are
about to do that.
Much has been made of intelligence gathering by the DSO and the
process of their investigations, as though it were a crime but, of
course, in terms of section 179(2) of the Constitution provision is
made for an intelligence-gathering function for the DSO.
Is the solution for the executive’s manifest failure ...
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, on a point of order: Is it allowed that
members should essentially repeat themselves? Essentially, the
speech, thus far, is a repetition of everything that was said in the
earlier debate.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: I have not repeated a single word, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Continue.
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: I will continue, thank you. Much has been made
of the matter but, of course, in terms of section 179(2) of the
Constitution provision was made for an intelligence-gathering
function for the DSO. Now, is the solution for the executive’s
manifest failure to address the few problems, highlighted in the
months of self-evaluation by the unit, the fault of the DSO?
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 52 of 125
Is the solution to disband the DSO, to remove all of the elements
that rendered it so successful; is that what we are going to do?
Despite the fact that the ministerial committee was a de facto
entity from 2000, it did not meet. The Ministers failed to do their
job. The mess is not the fault of the DSO. It is the fault of the
executive to fulfil their responsibilities and the DSO is being
blamed for their failure.
You have ignored the very reasons for creating the DSO, as an elite
unit outside SAPS, in the first place. To even suggest that you
intend to pool highly qualified specialists, who are civilians, into
a ranking structure is a folly of monumental proportions and has
resulted in a mass exodus of skilled personnel.
The SAPS has a very poor track record of anticorruption initiatives
managed from within, with little or no progress or results. In
addition, SAPS closed down the successful anticorruption unit in
2002 – thank you, Jackie Selebi – on the grounds of a lack of
accountability and transformation. This closure created a void that
the ICD has not been able to fill.
By combining all anticorruption authorities under one roof, SAPS
becomes especially vulnerable to corruption from within. Who will
police the police? More importantly, who will police the
politicians? The answer is: No one. That, hon members, is what you
are achieving here today.
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 53 of 125
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo, asiwusekeli lo mthetho ngalezi zizathu,
akusho ukuthi yingoba amaphoyisa emabi. Cha! Asikhulumi ngamaphoyisa
lapha, ungizwe kahle Nyambose. Asikhulumi futhi ngalawa maphoyisa
asebenzayo sikhuluma ngaloku okwenziwa uKhongolose kulawa amanye
amaphoyisa. Ngakho kufuneka kucace ukuthi asiwusekeli ngalezondlela,
hhayi ngoba kukhona amaphoyisa amabi kwamanye. Laba bantu ngiyabona
badle kakhulu ngelantshi.[Uhleko.] Okwesibili-ke Mhlonishwa kufuneka
kucace ukuthi ngisakuphinda loku engikushilo yikuthi ingane mayonile
ibekwa phansi kukhulunywe nayo, ayinqunywa ikhanda. Ngakho-ke uma
kwenzeka kanje sesiyohlangana lapho siyohlangana khona bakithi.
Asiwusekeli lo mthetho. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu speech
follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Hon Chairperson, we do not support this Bill for
these reasons: it is not that the police are bad. No! We are not
talking about the police here; please understand me Nyambose. And we
are not talking about those police who are doing their work, but we
are talking about what the ANC is doing to other police. Therefore,
it must be clear that we are not supporting this Bill due to those
reasons, and not because there are those police who are worse than
others. I can see that these hon members have eaten a lot during
lunch. [Laughter.]
Secondly, hon Chairperson, it should be clear that I reiterate what
I said before that, if the child has done something wrong, you sit
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 54 of 125
down and talk with that child, you do not behead her. Therefore, if
things happen like this, then we shall meet hon members. We do not
support this Bill. Thank you.]
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, may I refer you to section 179(2) of
our Constitution which says the following –
The prosecuting authority has the power to institute criminal
proceedings on behalf of the state, and to carry out any necessary
functions incidental to instituting criminal proceedings.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Mr Landers, are you rising on a
point of order?
Mr L T LANDERS: I am, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): What is the point of order?
Mr L T LANDERS: Was the hon Kohler-Barnard misleading the House when
she said section 179(2) gave the DSO the authority to collect
intelligence?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Mr Landers, I’ll study Hansard
and rule accordingly. Are there any further declarations?
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 55 of 125
Ms M M SOTYU: Chairperson, Izama-zama ayisebenzi namhlanje.
[Chairperson, those who try to bypass procedures will not succeed
today.]
We were dealing with amendments here from the NCOP. It seems as if
Members of Parliament from the safety and security and justice
committees have decided to take this opportunity to repeat what they
have said before.
We have confidence in the SAPS, Ms Kohler-Barnard. You don’t, but we
have confidence in them. Your problem is – I repeat – you are
obsessed with Jackie Selebi. That is your problem. You are obsessed
with Jackie Selebi. You don’t care about any other thing that is
happening; your problem is Jackie Selebi. [Interjections.] Uthule
wena andikwazi nokukwazi ke! [You shut up! I don’t even know you.]
Chairperson, what we are saying is that the time is up. We are
passing these laws; we are going to fight crime in this country.
Asisayi kuphatha sijonge ngasemva sizakuphatha sijonge phambili.
Enkosi. [We are going to fight crime going forward, not going
backward. Thank you.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: On two occasions
during the past few minutes the hon Deputy Minister Mr De Lange has
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 56 of 125
referred to Ms Kohler-Barnard as a liar, and that, sir, is
unparliamentary.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT:
Chairperson, on a point of order: The statement that the hon KohlerBarnard made about the intelligence gathering is so palpably wrong
and is so factually challenged that one can do nothing other than
call her a liar. [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Wait, we are already
entertaining one point of order. [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: If
you will just keep quiet then I’ll answer. Just sit down.
[Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: No Chairperson, the point of order is that ...
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Sit
down! [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: No, you sit down! [Interjections.]
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 57 of 125
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): No, Mr Ellis, resume your seat!
I’m listening to ... [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, you are allowing him to make a statement.
The truth of the matter is ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Mr Ellis, resume your seat!
[Interjections.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Mr
Ellis, it’s after lunch so you are very excited again. You obviously
had something for lunch.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): No, Deputy Minister, please
address the issue.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUIONAL DEVELOPMENT:
Chair, I withdraw calling her a liar.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): The hon Deputy Minister
withdraws.
Division demanded.
Question put: That the South African Police Service Amendment Bill,
as amended, be passed.
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 58 of 125
House divided:
AYES - 209: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D;
Asiya, S E; Baloyi, M R; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V;
Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Burgess, C V; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J;
Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N;
Davies, R H ; De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I
W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Du Toit, D C; Fankomo,
F C; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gabanakgosi, P S;
Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Gigaba,
K M N; Gololo, C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M;
Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A ; Hendrickse, P A
C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacob, A C; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H;
Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C
D; Kgabi, L M; Khauoe, M K; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khunou, N
P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T;
Lekgetho, G; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I;
Luthuli, A N; Mabaso, S B; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F;
Maduma, L D; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed,
F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W;
Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana,
M N S; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B
L; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Matlala, M H;
Matsemela, M L; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M;
Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Meruti, M V; Mfeketo, N C; Mkhize, Z S;
Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane,
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 59 of 125
L J; Mofokeng , T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J;
Mohlaloga, M R; Moiloa-Nqodi, S B; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R;
Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K;
Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B
G; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mthembu,
B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndlazi,
Z A; Ndzanga, R A; Nene, M J ; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E;
Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu,
L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ;
Njobe, M A A; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S;
Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A
J; Nyembe, K K M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phala, M J;
Pieterse, R D; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M;
Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D;
Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M ; Sekgobela, S P; Selau,
J G; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla, N N;
Siboza, S ; Sikakane, M R; Sizani, S; Skhosana, D N; Skhosana, W
M; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M;
Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Thomson, B; Tobias, T
V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Twala, N
M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang,
Y; Wright, F J; Zulu, B Z.
NOES - 55: Bekker, Dr H J; Bici, J; Boinamo, G G; Botha, C-S;
Camerer, S M; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A
M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; George, D T; Joubert, L K;
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 60 of 125
Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D;
Labuschagne, L B; Lebenya, P; Marais, S J F; Mdlalose, M M;
Mfundisi, I S; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mpontshane, A M; Mulder,
C P; Mulder, P W A; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A H; Nkabinde, N C; Rabie, P
J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J;
Semple, J A; Seremane, W J; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Singh, N;
Skosana, M B; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S
N; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Vos, S C; Waters, M;
Weber, H; Woods, G G; Zikalala, C N Z.
Question agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): I’ve been informed that the
Third Order will stand over.
Third Order stood over.
RECOMMENDATION FOR APPOINTMENT OF CANDIDATES TO PUBLIC SERVICE
COMMISSION
(Consideration of Report)
There was no debate.
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 61 of 125
Question put: That the House approves the nomination of Ms N J
Mxakato-Diseko, Mr M J Malahlela and Ms S S Nkosi to fill the
positions of commissioners on the Public Service Commission and the
approval of Mr G P Bogatsu and Mr D van Wyk as supplementary
nominations.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr A C Nel): Hon members, in terms of section
196(8)(a) of the Constitution, the persons nominated for appointment
to serve on the Public Service Commission must be approved by a
majority of members of the Assembly. Although a division has not
been demanded, members are required to record their support for the
motion.
AYES - 248: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D;
Baloyi, M R; Bekker, Dr H J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B;
Blanché, J P I; Bloem, D V; Boinamo, G G; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M
S; Botha, C-S; Burgess, C V; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P;
Chikunga, L S; Chohan, F I; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R
H; De Lange, J H; Delport, J T; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M;
Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doidge, G Q M; Dreyer, A
M; Du Toit, D C; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Fankomo, F C; Farrow, S
B; Fazzie, M H; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gabanakgosi, P S;
Gasebonwe, T M A; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; George, D T; Gerber,
P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Gore, V C; Greyling, C H F;
Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A ; Hendrickse,
P A C; Hogan, B A; Huang, S; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 62 of 125
B; Johnson, M; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalako, M U; Kalyan, S
V; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C D; Kgabi, L M; Khauoe, M K;
Khumalo, K K; Khunou, N P; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D;
Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Labuschagne, L B;
Landers, L T; Lebenya, P; Lee, T D; Lekgetho, G; Likotsi, M T;
Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N;
Mabaso, S B; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D;
Magwanishe, G B; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote,
S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Maloney, L;
Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Marais, S J F;
Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L;
Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Matlala, M H;
Matsemela, M L; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M;
Mdaka, N M; Meruti, M V; Mfeketo, N C; Mfundisi, I S; Minnie, K
J; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe,
M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng , T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D;
Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Moiloa-Nqodi, S B; Mokoena, A D;
Mokoto, N R; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D;
Moonsamy, K; Morgan, G R; Morkel, C M; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R;
Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S
D; Mpahlwa, M B ; Mpontshane, A M; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N;
Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H; Ndlazi, Z A; Ndlovu, V B;
Ndzanga, R A; Nene, M J ; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E;
Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngculu,
L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ;
Njobe, M A A; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S;
20 NOVEMBER 2008
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Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A
J; Nyembe, K K M; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phala, M J;
Pieterse, R D; Rajbally, S ; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramodibe, D M;
Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Schippers, J; Schmidt, H C;
Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seadimo, M D; Seaton, S A;
Sefularo, M ; Sekgobela, S P; Selau, J G; Selfe, J; Semple, J A;
September, C C; Seremane, W J; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B;
Sibhidla, N N; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Singh,
N; Sizani, S; Skhosana, D N; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith,
V G; Smuts, M; Solo, B M; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M;
Steyn, A C; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Swanson-Jacobs, J; Swart,
M; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Thomson, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J;
Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Vadi, I;
Van den Heever, R P Z; Van Der Walt, D; Van Wyk, A; Vos, S C;
Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Waters, M; Weber, H; Woods, G G; Wright, F
J; Zikalala, C N Z; Zulu, B Z.
Question agreed to.
Nominations accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 196
(8)(a) of the Constitution.
SIXTEEN DAYS OF ACTIVISM FOR NO VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN,
AND HOW WE CAN RESOURCE OUR AGENCIES PROPERLY
(Subject for Discussion)
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Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the eve of another 16 days of activism for
no violence against women and children allows us as parliamentarians
to step back and take a sober look at how we, as a nation, are best
protecting our children and women and how seriously we take our
responsibilities as members of Parliament and the executive.
According to the annual report of SAPS, the number of children
murdered in the last financial year increased to 1 410. This is a
massive 22,4% increase from the previous year. There were 1 488
attempted murders on children, and that is an increase of 14%. I
want you to think about it for a while: 1 410 children murdered in
one year. That is nearly one child every six hours in our country.
How are these children being murdered? Obviously we need to know
this if we are to understand the causes of this scourge. For the
past two years, however, the current Minister - who is talking and
not listening - and the previous Ministers of Safety and Security
have refused to answer the parliamentary questions I put to them,
despite the information being readily available on the SAPS computer
system.
Now, if Ministers are not prepared to answer a legitimate question
with regard to how children are being murdered, it tells me they are
not serious about violence against children. And, given the
attention the Minister is giving to the debate today, it is quite
clear that he doesn’t care about violence against children.
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The reason I know the information is available on the SAPS computer
system, is that in 2006 the previous Minister actually did answer
the question on what weapons were used to murder children. You, sir,
have refused to answer that question. The reply sent shivers down my
spine.
As expected, firearms and knives are two of the biggest categories
with regard to instruments being used to murder children, and were
responsible for 54% of all murders. The third biggest category was
unknown. The cause of 18% of all child murders was never identified
in our country. Surely an autopsy would have determined what was
used to kill a child? Does this indicate that simple autopsies are
not being conducted on all murdered children?
It is no wonder that the conviction rate for the murder of children
is a dismal 12,8%, which means 87% of all murderers actually get
away with it. The other means used to murder children highlight the
disgusting depths which we as a nation have stooped to. Our children
are murdered by being strangled, according to the reply on 2006; 26
children were kicked to death - can you imagine the pain and fear
those children went through; stabbed with bottles and screwdrivers;
being stoned with bricks; being set alight with matches; six
children were murdered with axes; another six were murdered with
fists – so they were punched to death basically; three children were
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murdered by having boiling water poured all over them; and hammers
were also used. And so the list goes on.
How sick is our society when a child can be used as a punching bag?
What this does indicate is that we are failing to protect our
children before they are hurt or murdered. Where are our social
services which are supposed to identify vulnerable children and, if
necessary, remove them from potentially dangerous situations? Early
intervention is critical for all those involved in child protection
services, including social services and schools.
It is also important to have accountability when things go wrong, to
ensure that questions can be asked about why people did not act
quickly enough. We also need to hold the Ministers accountable with
regard to the lack of information coming from their departments.
With a 22% increase in child murders in one year, it is startlingly
clear that the very agencies that should be protecting our children
are simply not working. Another way we have failed our children is
by scrapping the independent, specialised Family Violence, Child
Protection and Sexual Offences units, FCS units, who dealt with over
47 000 cases of rape and grievous bodily harm last year alone. By
doing what they did, the ANC have eroded centres of excellence,
resulting in a system that is considerably less child-friendly than
the previous system.
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Children are now expected to go to police stations to report crimes.
This is an intimidating environment, and the vast majority of police
stations do not have facilities for children, such as playrooms and
observation rooms, which many of the FCS units did have. What is
needed is less talk and some action from government. Protection
services are failing to intervene in thousands of cases across the
country. The figures speak for themselves. We are failing our
children and no amount of public relations exercises will change
that.
The DA is therefore calling on government to establish an
independent inquiry into the running of all child protection
services in order to determine how best we can harness our current
resources and to determine what is needed to resource our agencies
better. Clearly, with 1 410 murders a year, the system is not
working. We also need to restore the FCS units as independent,
specialised units away from police stations and with facilities for
children, because we need to put the children first and the system
must be developed around children and not around politicians and
policemen. I thank you very much. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity. I also
thank Mr Waters for sponsoring this debate for discussion this
afternoon.
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Last Saturday I spoke at the funeral of a young lady at Soshanguve.
She had gone to the clinic in Soshanguve to pick up her tablets and
she actually sent a text message to her older sister on what she was
going to be doing after that. The family did not know that two hours
later they were going to find her lifeless body.
Now this is not a matter where we can point fingers at anybody. We
need to point fingers at ourselves, because this violence knows no
colour, no politics, it knows nothing. It is something with regard
to which we must all use the might that we have to assist government
to fight this. Most of the time the perpetrators are known to the
victims and the victims are unsuspecting until they lose their
lives.
We hear of these stories in our country over and over again. We
should also be mindful of the fact that of the more than 45 million
South Africans in our country, we are the chosen ones to represent
them. This actually becomes the responsibility of all of us,
collectively, to work together and ask, as public representatives,
are we doing enough in our constituencies, are we assisting our
constituencies, are we bringing awareness to our constituencies?
Even if we use a podium like this to debate from and show how bad
the situation out there is, we should also match it with what we as
individual members of Parliament are doing.
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To that end, when we start the 16 Days of Activism on 25 November, I
would like to collect all the information from all the places I will
be working at during the constituency period and I would like
Members of Parliament who’d like to join me in that report that we
have to table to the 4th Parliament, to do so - to say that in my
area in the Northern Cape I have been to these areas, and this is
how I’ve assisted the police. We have all been called by the police,
not now, Minister, during Steve Tshwete’s time, to volunteer as
Members of Parliament.
One thing we know is that the community knows us, they have elected
us. They will trust us. So if we dedicate an hour or two at any
police station nearest to you, and say you will be there to assist,
you may relieve with reception work - by relieving a policeman or
woman from the reception area, you are actually allowing them to do
the dedicated functions of a police officer.
We are not saying that you should go and arrest people, but do those
things that you could do; like making photocopies, sending e-mails
on their behalf – things that will actually free the police officers
and get those people to tend to the work that they are supposed to
do. I will still write to you, hon members, to find out how many of
us did heed that call, the call was given to us almost ten years ago
and I don’t remember if we have actually done what we were supposed
to do.
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Sixteen Days of Activism is actually a campaign that says from 25
November to 10 December, we focus on campaigning around the issues
that affect women and children, but that doesn’t mean that on
midnight of 10 December it is freedom for men and that perpetrators
can do as they please because the 16 days are over. We are saying
that for 365 days, and a quarter in some years, we are going to
fight for the protection of women and children, because they happen
to be a vulnerable group. I am talking on behalf of everybody here.
This matter is also receiving attention at the UN. You know that
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon added another impetus to the campaign
by launching a multiyear campaign to intensify action to end
violence against women and girls. This approach seeks to sustain the
campaign beyond just the annual 16 Days of Activism. This campaign,
which was launched by the UN, will deliberately run from 2008 to
2015, so that it runs alongside the MDGs. We welcome this and would
also like to be seen to be part of it. We know that our MDGs are not
always so recognisable, but let us continue working hard and make
sure that we give this multiyear campaign, as launched by the UN,
our support.
Of particular relevance to us as parliamentarians, of the three key
areas that were mentioned by the UN, the area that we want to
participate in and that we think we can give meaning to, is, to draw
from a clause in the UN General Assembly, resolution 61/143, which
reads thus, “... to review, where appropriate, revise, amend or
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abolish all laws, regulations, policies, practices and customs that
discriminate against women”.
That is a function that we know better than all other functions and
that is what we have to look at. We have passed many pieces of
legislation, but whether the legislation works for our people is
something we have to look at. We must do this through an exercise
that evaluates and, where there are gaps, we must tighten the
legislation. We also need to have a session where we talk about
implementing that legislation. Have we monitored sufficiently
whether the laws are being implemented, and whether the laws are
even known to people? Do we go back to our constituencies and tell
people we know that these five Bills were passed, and whether they
know what they imply? If we can use whatever resources we have
available, or even say that we don’t have enough resources, because
we tend to want to give feedback and go back to our communities – I
am sure we will find ways of getting money somewhere to assist
Members of Parliament to ensure that we see to it that there is
implementation.
It means nothing if we are going to be talking about having passed
more that 1 200 pieces of legislation by now, but when we go back to
our people, they are still faced with the same problems. Our people
know who the perpetrators are. They are scared. What is it that we
are doing?
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Women, in particular, like clothes, Minister: at times we go into
the shop to buy them, at times we don’t get to the shop to buy them,
but we still get the clothes anyway. At times we need those
earrings, because I saw this or that Minister wearing them and I
will get them, whether I have the money or not and I don’t pay or
have a receipt for it.
What I usually say is that if you get any goods without getting a
receipt for it, you are no less guilty than a person who has a gun;
you are the same. For you to have those kinds of things shining on
your body, some people have had to lose their lives. Some children
have lost their parents for you, because we all like shortcuts.
[Applause.] We need to make sure that we cut the market. If people
steal cars and there’s nobody to buy the cars, they won’t steal
them. But if we support it and we say, “Oh, I have always wanted ...
... ke bule koloi ela ke tsamaye ke letsa mmino hore ba itlwe hore
ke bohlale ... [... to open that car and drive around playing music
so that they can see how streetwise I am ...]
... without paying the right price for it.” When you read about
orphans, and when you read about widows, you must know that you have
created that. It is important for us to lead by example. We are the
people who are given the opportunity to speak at churches and
funerals. Much as we are going to talk about the deceased and
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whatever campaigns the churches have; let us push the message that
people should come out and help the government.
I remember one time – I think hon Twala was with me - when we spoke
at a funeral and said there must be somebody who knows who killed
this child and that that person may even be here with us, listening
to what is going to happen, but have a conscience. They will kill
somebody else’s child today and when they run short of victims,
they’ll be coming for you. For you to stop other people from
becoming victims, you should talk. That very evening, a report was
received by the police saying, “I am scared. I am the mother of soand-so, but I know I am seeing things that my child has not worked
for.”
We need to bring back “lobo ubunthu” because that is how we used to
deal with each other. [Applause.] I mean, if you go into the suburbs
or townships of Tshwane - those are the areas that I live in and
those are my constituencies - in black and white areas we have the
same perpetrators. The perpetrators don’t have a colour. Nobody can
say this is done by either black people or white people, because it
will be irresponsible to say so. Otherwise we wouldn’t be finding it
everywhere.
There is also the other point that we have to look at and that is
how we socialise our children, how we bring up that little boy to
think he’s a big man; how we bring up that little Thabo to know that
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he doesn’t have to wash the dishes, he doesn’t have to pick up his
socks, because there is a girl who will come and do that for him.
When Thabo grows up to be a man or a father and he does that to his
wife and children, we are surprised.
We are the first port of call. What is it that we are doing? We are
benefiting from being where most South Africans would love to be. We
are here occupying these seats, hon members, let us make a change.
Thank you.
Ms C N Z ZIKALALA: Chairperson, the IFP strongly believes that the
question of gender has not yet been properly addressed. Even though
we are said to be supposedly enjoying our freedom, most women are
still oppressed and suffering under patriarchy, whether in the
workplace or in our communities. Some males still cannot accept
women in senior positions as their leaders.
The 16 Days of Activism for No Violence against Women and Children
campaign is just a tool, but is not enough to address such issues.
The agencies for bringing about change are not properly resourced
and lack the capacity or power to implement and educate society.
Policies are endorsed, but not implemented.
Agencies must start to identify the causes of violence against women
and children. The IFP, however, also believes that the abuse of
alcohol and drugs plays a crucial role with regard to woman and
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child abuse. Hence we feel that if the agencies of change can try to
resolve these issues of alcohol and drug abuse, violence against
women and children can be reduced.
It is a basic human right for women and children to be thoroughly
educated on issues pertaining to abusive behaviour in order for them
to be able to understand at which point the behaviour of their men
can be seen as abuse. Agencies must instil in women’s minds in
particular that they must stop justifying male behaviour in terms of
who provoked whom.
The government should entrust agencies who are dealing with issues
of violence against women and children with more powers to exercise
and should furnish them with all the tools needed. The government
must also ensure that an enabling environment is created for women
and children.
Lastly, the agencies should try to create a common understanding of
gender by working with women and men separately, as well as jointly,
so as to deal with attitudinal beliefs which strongly influence
practices at both professional and personal levels.
Nksz S N SIGCAU: Sihlalo namalungu ahloniphekileyo, mandibhotise.
Oko kwathi kwasekwa eli phulo, ubani ushiyeka enengqondo yokuba
ngokwenene sisisizwe siyasiguqula isithethe sokuthula xa kukho
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izenzo zodushe ezijolise ekunyhashweni kwamalungelo abasethyini
nabantwana.
Isininzi semibutho yabucala namagorha ayidlalile indima yawo kule
mpumelelo. Kwaye kufuneka siyiphawule nento yokuba abezopolitiko
nemibutho yezopolitiko nayo ibe nalo igalelo elinamandla
nelibonakalayo ekuncediseni ekuqhawuleni umqokozo.
Kananjalo, masazi ukuba ukuguqulwa kwesithethe sokuthula akuthethi
ukuba kuza kuguqulwa isimbo sodushe ngophanyazo. Nangaphandle
kwamathandabuzo, kufuneka sithathe amanyathelo angqongqo
ukuqinisekisa ukuba lo mgama sele siwuhambile siyawandisa,
singabuyeli mva. Intsingiselo yoko kukuba amaqumrhu amiselwe ukulwa
obu bugebenga ayaphanda kwaye atshutshise ngempumelelo abenzi
bobugwenxa.
Ukuba siyoyiswa kukuqinisekisa ukuba abo bangabenzi bobu bugebenga
bayazeka futhi bayatshutshiswa ukuze bafumane isohlwayo
esibafaneleyo, abo bancedisa ekupopoleni nasekulweni esi simbo baya
kuthyafa bangaphinde benze nto. Ngoko ke isithethe sikacwaka siya
kubuya ngamandla.
Kubaluleke kakhulu kunangaphambili ukuba iinkonzo zamapolisa
neenkundla zabelwe izixa-mali ezibonakalayo kwaye zixhotyiswe ngcono
ukuze zikwazi ukuphumeza umsebenzi wazo kuba kaloku okwangoku
ziyasilela kakhulu.
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Ndiyabulela ngokubaza kwenu iindlebe. Enkosi. (Translation of
isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms S N SIGCAU: Chairperson and hon members, I greet you. Ever since
this initiative has been established, one does realise that we as a
nation have shifted from the norm of turning a blind eye when acts
of violence are perpetrated against women and children.
The majority of NGOs and some heroes have played a major role
towards achieving this victory. We should also acknowledge that
politicians and political organisations have played a significant
role in breaking the chain of silence.
Be that as it may, breaking the silence does not necessarily mean
that the act of violence will miraculously disappear. We have to put
in place measures to ensure, without any doubt, that we add on to
what we have already achieved, and never turn back. The purpose is
thus to ensure that organisations, formed specifically to deal with
this crime, do investigate and successfully prosecute these
perpetrators.
Organisations that assist in fighting gender-based violence against
women and children will be demoralised if we fail to ensure that
perpetrators are reported, prosecuted and suitably punished. This
will therefore result in the reinstatement of the norm of silence.
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It is more important than ever before that the SAPS and the courts
are allocated substantial budgets and are capacitated to ensure that
necessary services are rendered much more effectively. So far, they
fall short in their role.
I thank you for listening. Thank you.]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, Chair. Human trafficking is modern-day
slave-trading. It entails transporting people away from their
communities across continents, countries or regions by threat, the
use of violence or deception and enticement, with the intention of
taking advantage of them. This trafficking of persons involves
adults and children, who are trafficked for sex or for labour.
Globally, trafficking in human beings is the third largest area of
organised crime after drugs and arms smuggling. The UN estimates
that some 80% of people trafficked are trafficked for sexual
exploitation. The global sex industry is an enormous profit-making
venture, based on the exploitation of women and children. Unlike
drugs, women and children can be sold numerous times over for
profit, with the criminals receiving less punishment and shorter
sentences than they would for dealing in drugs.
I bring this up specifically at the start of this year’s 16 Days of
Activism for No Violence against Women and Children campaign
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because, according to the UN Agency for International Development,
crime syndicates of slave traders are increasing their operations in
South Africa. The province hardest hit by this scourge is the
Eastern Cape, followed by KwaZulu-Natal, the North West, Limpopo and
the Northern Cape.
Organisations involved in investigating cases and providing therapy
for victims are extremely concerned at the increased incidence of
human trafficking in South Africa and human rights activists are
warning that things could get far worse as the 2010 Soccer World Cup
draws near and the demand for sex workers increases. A forceful
statement needs to be made that South Africans will not allow slavetrading to take place in South Africa. A clear message must go out
to foreigners and locals as South Africa gears up for 2010 that we
are not prepared to turn a blind eye or, even worse, facilitate the
abuse of people through prostitution at any time, including during
the 2010 Soccer World Cup.
The ACDP calls on government to follow the example of the Republic
of China, as they removed all sex workers from the cities where
Olympic events were being held and stepped up vigilance to block
individuals and vice rings from operating. This will send a signal
to those preparing now, that their efforts will be in vain.
The ANC struck a cruel blow to women and children when it disbanded
the Scorpions and strengthened the grip of crime syndicates in South
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Africa. Nevertheless, we urge government to intensify
antitrafficking activities, to ensure that dedicated police units
are trained to eradicate human traffic operations, and that these
units are trained to work closely with NGOs and state social
services to adequately assist victims of trafficking.
The ACDP has called on the Minister of Education to urgently
facilitate programmes within institutions of learning which will
prepare young people to avoid the dangers of being lured by
seemingly valid promises of work or reward, only to find themselves
abducted and held captive by modern-day slave-traders.
The ACDP calls on government and all politicians to set an example
which nations around the world can follow. We must stop modern-day
slave-trading in this country. Thank you.
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Women and children are invariably the most
vulnerable people when it comes to violence. It may be violence in
the family or in society. South Africa is a signatory to the
Convention on the Elimination of all Forms Discrimination against
Women. Therefore, it is expected that South Africans should conform
to the protocol adopted in the convention. Men who hold the view
that women are lesser beings who were made out of the dust or crumbs
of clay that fell off the master’s table when he made a super
gender, man, should be reminded what the Inter-Parliamentary Union
had to say about women in 1994, and I quote:
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The combination of efforts on the part of all of society's
components is indispensable to tackle and resolve the problems
facing society. Emphasis should thus be placed on two
complementary concepts: the concept of parity which reflects the
fact that persons of one or the other sex are different but
nonetheless equal; and the concept of partnership, which shows
that a creative synergy can be created between men and women so as
to tackle and resolve the community's problems effectively.
This goes to prove that there is no master or super gender and by
extension no super or master human being. Women and children should
be treated with love and respect. While there is merit in calling
for state-of-the-art buildings and deluxe vehicles for law
enforcement agencies, it is also important that these agencies
should be resourced with the best human resources, people who care,
empathise and sympathise, who are resourceful and compassionate. We
do not need officers who have hearts of stone when dealing with
women and children. The UCDP envisages a period in our lives when
activism against women abuse will be a way of life. I thank you.
Ms N C MFEKETO: Hon members, the national theme of “Don't look away,
act against abuse” for this year’s 16 Days of Activism for No
Violence Against Women and Children Campaign, is a rallying call to
all South Africans, men and women, young and old, across all
cultural divides, to speak out against the scourge of violence
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against the vulnerable in our society. It is a call not to hide or
deny the existence of such violence. It is a call to acknowledge
when help is needed and to help. It is a call to declare a permanent
truce in this epidemic.
Fourteen years since the advent of democracy and a constitution with
the strongest provisions on gender equality in the world,
gender-based violence continues to undermine the human rights of
South Africans, especially women and children.
Violence against women and children is a human rights issue, but
more specifically, it is an equality issue. It is widely
acknowledged that violence grows and takes hold of environments
where relationships are characterised by inequity, where a power
imbalance – imagined or real– exists between men and women, boys and
girls and adults and children. Violence is an expression of
domination of power. It is exerted by the powerful over the
disempowered.
In 2006 South Africa made a ground-breaking move to develop a 365days’ action plan to end violence against women and children. The
plan was a product of a multistakeholder conference driven by the
ANC–led government in partnership with the civil society
organisations that are committed to the struggle of ending violence
against women and children. This effort culminated in the launch of
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the action plan by the then Deputy President Phumzile Mlambo–Ngcuka
on 8 March 2007 in celebration of International Women’s Day.
Other countries in the region like Zimbabwe, Namibia, Botswana,
Mauritius, Lesotho, Zambia and Swaziland engaged in similar
initiatives to develop action plans to end violence against women.
Almost all the action plans are framed in terms of the SADC addendum
on the prevention and eradication of violence against women and
children that outlines five key areas in which measures must be
adopted to address this scourge in the region. The key areas include
the legal, social, economic, cultural and political spheres;
services; education, training and awareness; and integrated
approaches to budget allocation.
By launching the national action plan to end gender violence, South
Africa is one of the first countries to heed the call of the UN
Secretary-General last year for all countries to develop
comprehensive multisector action plans for ending gender violence.
This national action plan is a multisector framework approach for
ending gender violence.
This plan recognises that no single sector, government ministry,
department or civil society organisation is by itself responsible
for or has a singular ability to address this challenge. It is
envisaged that all South African government departments and civil
society organisations will, as stakeholders, use this national
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action plan as the basis to develop their own strategic and
operational plans to ensure unity of purpose and cohesion of efforts
to achieve maximum impact in the process of eradicating this
scourge.
In order to address and find solutions to this scourge, the ANC–led
government has put in place various measures that include ensuring
that our courts toughen actions on gender violence, and passing
legislation that will help intensify our efforts to fight sexual
crimes against all persons but in particular against women, children
and people who are mentally disabled.
This plan also includes integrated approaches to end the violence
such as ensuring that treatment and care receive greater attention,
that the media becomes more a part of the solution instead of being
part of the problem and, more important, creating a space that
allows real men to find their voice in assisting in dealing with
this matter.
More importantly, part of this plan is a Victims’ Charter. The ANC
government has committed itself to implementing measures aimed at
continuous reform of the criminal justice system to promote and
protect the rights of victims of crime. This commitment is in the
spirit of the South African Constitution and in compliance with the
international human rights instruments. The implementation of the
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Victims’ Charter is one of the measures aimed at balancing the
rights of victims of crime and accused persons.
In 2007 a stakeholder summit was held in KwaZulu–Natal on
implementation of the Victims’ Charter and minimum standards. Also a
national workshop on challenges of training on Victims’ Charter was
held. Public as well as provincial consultation on implementation
was held and a five-year national implementation plan outlining the
commitments made by the Departments of Justice, Social Development,
Health and Correctional Services and the NPA and SAPS, has been
developed.
Despite these efforts and measures, it is important for us to note
that if we in our neighbourhoods, our communities, schools,
workplaces and families continue to turn a blind eye when faced with
gender violence, we will be doing ourselves as a society a grave
injustice. We need to break down those structures that support and
perpetuate the silence surrounding victims of violence. This starts
with us in our homes when we raise those young people who become
abusers. Thank you very much. [Time expired.]
Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, on Monday 17 November 2008, two burglars
entered the Ahmed-household in Laudium, Pretoria. Rashida Ahmed, 49years-old, was beaten for over an hour with a spade and baton, while
her attackers dragged her from room to room as they ransacked her
home. Police have described her killing as Pretoria’s worst murder
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yet. Our deepest condolences are extended to the Ahmed family on
this most tragic event. The Ahmeds are victims, as many other South
African families have been, to violence, crime and terror.
Annually we return to the podium confessing our commitment to ending
the violence and abuse against women and children and this publicity
is effective, but is it effective enough? Looking at the South
African survey of 2007-08, it is reported that between the periods
of 2002-03 to 2006-07 there has been an astounding increase of 34,7%
in crimes committed against children under the age of 18 years.
These crimes range from murder to rape, assault, indecent assault
and common assault. The SA Government has policies, conventions and
projects aligned with addressing the seriousness of violence and
abuse against women and children. However, we remain severely
challenged.
Actions speak louder than words. Mahatma Ghandi once said that those
who embark on a journey of goals with vengeance, cause the whole
world to be blinded. It has been very heart-warming having the hon G
Morgan embracing senior citizens of Chatsworth, but what puzzles me
is that there has been a bitter attack on our 75-year-old member,
the hon Rajbally, by the DA’s hon Morgan over the voting issue. He
has sent letters to the Mercury newspaper, casting aspersions on her
performance in Parliament.
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All members are aware of hon Rajbally’s consistent contribution and
participation at national level and the hon Morgan should hang his
head in shame.
Mr G R MORGAN: Chair, on a point of order: I think that the
implication here by the hon Bhoola that I have somehow abused the
hon Rajbally, in the context of a serious debate where we’re talking
about violence, criminal violence and sexual violence, is egregious
and that comment should be withdrawn.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): We will check the Hansard
and then we will come back to you.
Mr R B BHOOLA: The hon Morgan should hang his head in shame for
abusing an elderly woman. [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Chair, on a point of order: You have just indicated,
sir, that you are prepared to take careful cognisance of what the
hon Bhoola has said, and yet he continues on the same theme. I would
suggest that in actual fact he should refrain from that particular
angle now.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Yes, I think when it comes
to repeating those things, we are still going to look at the Hansard
and see whether they were parliamentary or not. But I think you
should refrain from that, hon member.
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Mr R B BHOOLA: I reiterate that while the hon Morgan is counting
votes on his fingers, the MF is striving to salvage its communities
and enhance delivery. [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: On a point of order: Chairperson, despite your ruling,
he continues referring to Mr Morgan, etc.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): No, this is in a different
tone. It is a different line altogether now.
Mr R B BHOOLA: Parliament is not about political trickery and point
scoring. For the MF it is about service delivery. [Laughter.] We are
not here to represent our people for the pleasure or displeasure of
the DA. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Order, order!
Mr R B BHOOLA: Matters as crucial as the fight against violence and
abuse of women and children should not be used as opportunistic
moments for the next election, but as a platform to unite efforts to
address it. We need to join hands to mobilise the fight against
violence and abuse of women and children at various levels of
society and figure out ways to deter perpetrators from committing
such heinous crimes.
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The MF is disappointed and disillusioned by the fabric of criminals
produced among us. For them to commit such brutal acts of torture is
evidence of people without a heart, without a soul and without
humanity. We call on the long arm of the law to bring these barbaric
criminals to task and we have great confidence in the words of the
hon Minister of Safety and Security that we will take the criminals
on, head-on.
Ms J A SEMPLE: Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Order! Just wait a minute
hon member. Order! Hon members, what is going on now? Can we just
listen, please! [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, on a point of
order: Is it parliamentary to confront a member, the way in which
the hon Morgan has confronted hon Bhoola?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): To do what?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: To be confrontational. Is it
parliamentary? [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Mhlonishwa, Dingiswayo,
ngicela uhlale phansi siqhubeke-izosihlupha lento... [Hon Minister,
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son of Dingiswayo, please sit down, as this thing will get out of
hand ... ] [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, I wanted clarity,
so that if it happens in future, then we will know whether it is
parliamentary or not. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): What do you mean by
confrontational?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, he moved from his
seat and went straight to another member who was debating there. I
want to know, if you say it is allowed and it is parliamentary...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Can we make this clear. You
say he moved from where to where?
The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: He moved from his seat to
confront the member who was passing after having debated here in the
House. Now, it will be okay if you say that this is allowed and
should be part of this House. Then you must say so.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Mhlonishwa, members move
from one seat to the other talking to other members.
[Interjections.] I am not sure what this confrontation means.
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[Interjections.] Hon Minister, can you clearly explain this to me.
What actually happened?
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUPHEPHA NOKUVIKELA: Uyabona baba, umuntu ubekade
ekhuluma, ngalokho, uma esuka lo, uyamvimbela. Manje, ngibuza ukuthi
uma esuka lo emvimba, engamvimbi nakahle. [Ubuwelewele.] Usuka
esihlalweni sakhe lo usuka ezokhuluma la, lo uyamvimbela usho lento
ayishoyo. Akasuki ngomoya omuhle. Manje, into engiyibuza kuwena
Sihlalo, wukuthi: yinto evunyelwe yini ukuthi yenzeke leyo la?
[Ubuwelewele.] Ngoba mina angiboni kuhambisana nemithetho yala
ePhalamende, kodwa uma wena uthi yinto efanele yenzeke. Cha, ukusho
nje baba, Musi sazi ukuthi sekuyenziwa lokho. Sazi ukuthi cha
uyakuvuma impela sekuzokwenziwa. [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of
isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Hon Chairperson, you see, hon
Bhoola has been debating, and thereafter the hon Morgan was blocking
his way. Now, what I want to know is why the hon Morgan blocked him,
and not in a polite manner but aggressively ... [Interjections.] Hon
Bhoola was passing by after having debated and hon Morgan stopped
him to say what he has said. He was not confronting him in a polite
way. Now, what I am asking from you, Chairperson, is whether it is
parliamentary to do that in this House? [Interjections.] Because I
do not see it as complying with the Rules of Parliament, but if you
say so, then it is fine. I am just saying, hon Chairperson, so that
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we should know that it is now allowed. We should know that you have
agreed that it is acceptable. [Interjections.]]
The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, on a point of order ...
[Interjections.]
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, on a point of order ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Thank you, hon members. I
need to say that personally I did not see what the Minister is
saying he saw, but from the way he describes it, it should not have
happened in that way. Members should not confront members in the
manner - threatening - that the Minister is describing.
I also think it should be the responsibility of the Whips to assist
the Chair in looking at issues that are disrupting the debates. It
should not be part of the debates. The Whips should be assisting in
such cases. So, that would be my ruling.
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Can you sit down, sir.
Mr D V BLOEM: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I think that it
would be proper for him to apologise to Mr Bhoola. [Interjections.]
Seeing that you have ruled now ...
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Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, this is not a point of order. This cannot
be a point of order.
Mr D V BLOEM: I think that Mr Morgan must apologise to Mr Bhoola ...
[Interjections.] ... because he was very aggressive and intimidating
towards Mr Bhoola and that is not correct.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I am ... [Interjections.]
Ms D VAN DER WALT: Ag siestog! [Ag shame.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I ruled, Mr Bloem, and
admitted that I did not see that; and that if it happened in the way
that the Minister is describing it then I should discourage it.
Members should not do that to other members. This is a debating
Chamber where we are all free to debate and therefore we should not
intimidate other members. And, if Mr Morgan did do that, I say I
discourage it, not only to Mr Morgan, but to all of us. We should
not be doing things like that. Hon Mr Morgan, did you do it in that
spirit? [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairperson, may I answer for Mr Morgan, please.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Why?
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Mr M J ELLIS: The hon Minister suggests that Mr Morgan stopped the
man in his path. Mr Morgan did not leave his seat. He stood up, but
he did not leave his seat and he did not confront ...
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Ellis, can I just hear
from the hon Morgan what really happened?
Mr G R MORGAN: Well, let us do some basic physics here. I stayed
there. Mr Bhoola walked through there and I did not block anyone. I
rose up from my seat but after being accused of abusing someone, of
course, I am angry. Will I apologise? No!
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): You see, I am going to
adhere to the ruling I made about this, which is a general ruling
that if we are doing that, we don’t need to do it. [Interjections.]
I did say that if the Whips are here and they are not assisting in
things like this, then it’s a difficult point for me.
[Interjections.] Hon Bloem, please!
Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, on a point of order: The way in which he
is behaving is unparliamentary, he cannot tell the Chair that he is
not going to apologise. That is wrong! He is undermining you,
Chairperson, and the House. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon Bloem, that is your own
interpretation of the whole situation. Please sit down. I cannot
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coerce him to admitting something that he did not say ...
[Interjections.]
Ms F I CHOHAN: Chairperson, may I suggest that, seeing that you had
asked Mr Morgan to explain himself, you perhaps accord Mr Bhoola the
same privilege to explain what transpired in the spirit of the audi
alteram partem.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I am not sure whether this
is going to take us forward here. Perhaps if Mr Bhoola says
something different then what would be the difference in my ruling?
Hon Bhoola, do you want to say something about this?
Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, indeed all the sentiments that have been
expressed by the previous speakers are exactly what occurred. Hon
Gerald Morgan got up from his seat, while I passed there, and
addressed me in a very aggressive tone and displayed very aggressive
behaviour - unacceptable for Parliament.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I think I did say that I
have made a ruling and I will adhere to that ruling. Because now we
have his word against his; and a lot of shouting in the House that
he did it – can we continue?
Dr A N LUTHULI: Chairperson, on a point of order: A certain member
there said: Ag siestog! [Ag shame!] Is that parliamentary language?
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And I have just heard Mr Ellis saying, on this matter of hon Bhoola,
“What else did you expect Mr Morgan to say or do?” [Interjections.]
Is that parliamentary language? “Ag siestog!” [Ag shame!]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Well, can I say that we will
also check the Hansard and come back with a ruling. [Interjections.]
Dr A N LUTHULI: Is that parliamentary language: “Ag siestog!” [Ag
shame!]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon member, I say I am going
to check the Hansard and come back with a ruling whether ...
[Interjections.] No, it needs an interpretation. It is language, hon
member. Can I continue with the debate? Continue, hon member.
Ms J A SEMPLE: Chairperson, I regard this debate as extremely
important and I take the issue of violence against women as
something to be viewed extremely seriously. Therefore I regard hon
Bhoola’s attempt to trivialise this debate, and giving him five
minutes or perhaps two minutes of fame in this House, as highly
despicable.
As South African women we rejoice in the fact that one of us, the
well-known South African actress, Charlize Theron, has been chosen
as a UN Messenger of Peace with a special focus on ending violence
against women as something to be celebrated. I am especially proud
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because Charlize Theron comes from my constituency, Benoni in
Ekurhuleni, Gauteng.
But there is something which does not make us proud. It is the fact
that Charlize comes from a background of violence and abuse. This is
something that is an everyday occurrence for far too many women in
South Africa.
A recent UN Population Fund Report puts the life expectancy of a
typical South African woman at just 49,6 years - our life expectancy
has been cut by six years over the past 10 years. It is now down to
the levels of women living in war-torn and poverty-stricken
countries such as Somalia and Ethiopia.
Women live longer in Namibia than we do here. They live longer in
Ghana, and to our never-ending shame, women live a full decade
longer in war-torn Iraq than they do here in sunny South Africa.
These statistics are largely due to South Africa having one of the
highest HIV prevalence rates in the world with 21,8% of all women
aged between 15 and 49 being HIV-positive - the fourth highest rate
globally.
I find it somewhat ironic that the Minister responsible for allowing
the HIV/Aids pandemic to spread almost unchecked has now been
sidelined to the Office of the Presidency. Let us hope that she is
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not there long enough to further compromise the women, children and
the disabled who fall within her portfolio.
The previous Minister in the Presidency certainly did nothing to
advance the cause of women; in fact, I would go so far as to say he
did so little that he practically undermined the women’s movement in
this country. One only has to look at our poor record in reporting
to the UN Committee on the Status of Women. The initial South
African country report for the period 1994 to 1997 was submitted to
the CEDAW committee in 1998, but somehow, under former Minister
Pahad’s watch, no report has been submitted since then.
We are now consolidating our second, third and fourth country
reports on the implementation of the CEDAW convention for the past
10 years into one. Despite our much acclaimed Office on the Status
of Women and Gender machinery, section V 4.2 of the same report also
points out that South Africa has amongst the world’s highest levels
of sexual and domestic violence, and that the HIV/Aids epidemic
disproportionately affects women’s lives both in terms of rates of
infection and the burden of care and support they carry for those
with Aids-related illnesses.
The Deputy Minister of Social Development, Dr Jean Swanson-Jacobs,
has previously said, “There is a clear link between violence against
women and HIV/Aids infection.” She added that socioeconomic factors,
unequal gender and sexual relations, unprotected sex, and alcohol
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and drug abuse are among the factors that have increased the
negative impact of HIV/Aids.
We applaud efforts of organisations, such as Sonke Gender Justice,
which conducts surveys and tries to implement legislation and
increase support amongst men to prevent violence against women. We
need organisations such as these, men and women like Charlize
Theron, to keep on reminding us that violence in any form - but
particularly against women and children - is not acceptable.
[Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chairperson, hon
members, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, it is now
almost a decade since the 16 Days of Activism for No Violence
Against Women and Children campaign was launched in 1999, as part of
efforts by the government to rally citizens against the high levels
of violence directed at women and children, which has been prevalent
in our communities.
The objectives of the 16 Days of Activism campaign is to uphold the
rights of citizens and restore the dignity of the most vulnerable
members of our society.
Among our major goals were the aims of
raising awareness of the challenges posed by societal attitudes and
practices that continue to perpetuate gender-based violence and
child abuse.
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And I must say that the incident that just happened in this House
shows me that even in this House there is not yet an appreciation of
those conditions and attitudes that perpetuate gender violence,
because the victims of gender violence doesn’t only have to be women
and children. Violence doesn’t begin with a slap; it begins with
verbal abuse.
In the past decade, our government, guided by the constitutional
rights guaranteed to the people of South Africa, has come up with
numerous laws that are meant to protect the dignity of each person
in this country.
We have also established progressive policies and implemented
various programmes that are currently being implemented to protect
women and children. And here I must commend all those departments
who participate in the Victim Empowerment Programmes in partnership
with the private sector and also the police who have assisted with
trauma centres in partnership with the community.
We have also in the past decade been able to expand the campaign
activities and extend them to reach even the poorest and remotest of
communities and this has been an important milestone as it is in
these communities where such violence against women and children is
prevalent.
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According to research studies conducted by, among others, the
Government Communication and Information Systems, GCIS, about a year
ago, societal awareness about problems such as child abuse, domestic
violence, as well as violence against women in general, has
increased considerably.
The GCIS study conducted towards the end of 2006 found that about
33% of South Africans were now aware of the 16 Days Campaign and
conceded that violence against women and children should not be
accepted, whereas only 16% were aware of this in 2003. So, I think
that the campaign does help – our programmes help as well – but it
is also very important to change people’s attitudes.
But having said that, hon members, let me hasten to say that we
still have a lot of work to do if we are to win the fight against
gender-based violence. One of the tasks facing us is that of
strengthening our structures and improving co-ordination between
these structures and enhancing the partnership between the
government, private sector, nongovernmental organisations and
community-based organisations.
This, however, should not be viewed as an impossible task, because
already the basis for this has been laid as the number of civil
society organisations that have embraced the campaign has increased
significantly since 1999. There has also been incredible growth in
partnership between the government and the private sector with all
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parties throwing their full weight behind the 16 Days of Activism
campaign. This has had a number of positive consequences, such as
the joint effort that enabled us to raise some of the required funds
for a number of nongovernmental and community-based organisations
dealing with victims of gender violence and child abuse. About 24
such organisations benefited from the support funds in 2006 alone.
During the past nine years, the campaign has succeeded in getting
more men to support the fight against violence that is directed at
women and children. This culminated in the Million Men March in
November last year in which over a million men from all provinces
took part in the main march in Bloemfontein and in various other
marches held countrywide. These men not only participated in marches
but they have also been actively involved in an ongoing way. They
are engaging with the department and attending workshops. I think
that the men’s movement is definitely growing.
It is important that we strengthen our efforts because one of the
challenges that we have to deal with, if we are to win this fight,
is the challenge of reducing the levels of alcohol and drug abuse in
our communities. There are indications that the abuse of alcohol and
drugs contribute towards the high levels of woman abuse, child abuse
and elder abuse as well as to the spread of HIV and Aids. This is
the most difficult part of the campaign because it requires
individuals to undergo a change of heart as well as to change their
behaviour. It is something that cannot be dealt with only in terms
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of policy formulation or by simply enacting laws; but we really need
to get the entire civil society to participate and join the
structures of the National Drug Master Plan in order to combat the
scourge of drug and alcohol abuse that we are experiencing in our
country.
The messages that we have been carrying to people as part of the
communication strategy for the 365-days campaign of talking to
people about behavioural change, is the impact of violence and the
link between gender-based violence, alcohol and drug abuse and HIV
and Aids.
We also need to communicate through the most effective and
appropriate channels aiming to reach the maximum number of people
across the country, particularly women and children residing in the
rural areas, farmworkers, people with disabilities and the aged.
This requires us to broaden our focus from the usual reliance on the
urban and mainstream media and focusing on the local media as well
as increasing our community outreach programmes.
Already we have aligned most of our events in the national programme
with that of the international theme for the year, which focuses on
matters relating to women’s human rights. And we believe that our
communications should also seek to highlight the stories of
survivors of gender-based violence and the positive impact that the
campaign has had on their lives.
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Before I conclude, let me convey my gratitude to all the South
Africans who have taken a stand and pledged not to look away when
they witness gender-based violence and child abuse. I am also very
grateful of the role played by businesses and the contributions made
by the private sector as a whole towards the 16 Days of Activism
Campaign. These do not only relate to financial contributions made
by the South African media and related institutions which have
supported the campaign from day one and played an important role in
getting our messages as well as key information regarding the abuse
of women and children to the public. I thank you.
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, it is a great pity that this debate has
degenerated into a slanging match. Just to inform members on what
the hon Bhoola was accusing the hon Morgan of when he said he had
abused an old lady, the hon Morgan was holding the MF to account for
not being in this Chamber and for not expressing a view in this
Chamber on the Scorpions Bill. Neither did they do so today. So, the
hon Morgan informed the voters of Chatsworth that she had no opinion
on such an important matter. That is not abusing an elderly lady.
Secondly, ... [Interjections.]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon Bhoola did
not say “old lady”. He said, “the hon 75-year-old lady”. So, he did
not just use the term “old lady”. Correction, please!
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Mr M WATERS: The reason I say she or the MF does not have an opinion
on the matter is because they did not participate in the debate.
Secondly, we are all equal in this Chamber. None of us deserves
special treatment, irrespective of whether you are an elderly lady
like the hon Rajbally is or a gay member of Parliament. We are all
equal here. It doesn’t matter, quite frankly. Elderly women in this
Chamber before, like Winnie Mandela and Helen Suzman, did not ask
for any special attention or treatment. They were treated equally.
They were attacked, and they held their ground.
Lastly, the voters of Chatsworth have obviously seen the light and
that is why you are so worried about Chatsworth. You are worried
that they are going to the DA and that is why you had to make these
ludicrous assertions about the hon Morgan.
You obviously don’t take this debate very seriously, hon Bhoola. You
don’t take being in this Chamber very seriously. So, why don’t you
do all of us a favour and sell your seat like you wanted to four
years ago?
But if I can get on with what you were actually ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Hon member, I think you are
simply being personal by pointing at the hon member and saying these
things. It is unparliamentary to do that. Please continue.
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Mr M WATERS: Thank you, Chair. What I would like to say to the other
speakers in the debate is that, yes, as the Speaker said, we must
all join hands in fighting child and women abuse and we have a
national 365-day plan, as the ANC spokesperson said.
However, what have we done in this country over the last few years?
Despite all this fanfare of 16 days of activism and the 365-day
action plan, we actually scrapped the very units that were there to
investigate cases of abuse and rape against women and children - the
Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences, FCS, units.
Why did we scrap them when they were doing an excellent job in
investigating the rape of women and children? What we need to do –
it is a pity the Minister is not here – is to reestablish these
units, as I have said before, and strengthen the sexual offences
courts so that specialised prosecutors and magistrates that deal
with children’s cases in particular can work together and develop
places where children can give evidence from behind a one-way mirror
or a CCTV camera so that they are not intimidated by seeing the
person who actually abused or raped them. I think we need to look at
these aspects a lot more seriously as Members of Parliament and
forget about party politics, please. Let’s get specialised units for
children. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
UNPARLIAMENTARY LANGUAGE
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(Ruling)
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Order! Before I go to the
next Order, there is a ruling I need to make. On 19 March 2008,
during a debate in the House on the Second-Hand Goods Bill, the hon
Ellis raised a point of order immediately after the Deputy Minister
of Safety and Security had made certain remarks from the podium. I
undertook to study Hansard and return to the House with a ruling.
However, I do apologise for the delay in finalising this matter.
In her response to speeches, the hon Deputy Minister referred to
specific members by name. She also made remarks which, according to
Hansard, were not directed at any specific member. Certain of these
remarks are the ones that the hon Ellis objected to.
During her speech, the Deputy Minister made the following remarks:
You find a member who comes here and makes sure that the criminals
out there are happy after she has spoken. They get very excited
because they’ve got partners in the House. ... She must tell the
House what she does during the night.
The Deputy Minister went on to say:
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 108 of 125
That’s the hon member; that’s how fallacious this member is. I
want to say that even if she can support that, she is fallacious
because she speaks in many tongues.
She added:
... you are in bed and in cahoots with some of these people who
are braying criminal activities.
Having looked at the Unrevised Hansard, I now rule as follows. I
want to caution that, although hon members enjoy freedom of speech
in the House, they should refrain from making personal remarks which
could be regarded as offensive. It is neither worthy of the dignity
of the House nor conducive to an orderly and effective debate to
even suggest that a member of this House could be in cahoots with
criminals.
Although the remarks were not directed at any specific member, I
find them inappropriate and offensive. Such a tone in a debate in
this august House should consistently be discouraged. Had the Deputy
Minister been present in the House, I would have asked her to
withdraw the remarks in the interests of upholding the decorum and
dignity of this House. However, I will write to her to convey the
ruling I have just delivered. Thank you.
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 109 of 125
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: I’m concerned about
the health of the hon Bloem who has been standing up while you were
talking ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): That is not a point of
order, hon Ellis.
Mr M J ELLIS: But I just want to make sure that he is okay because
he was behaving in a most extraordinary manner, sir.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Well, he could also be
concerned about your health, we don’t know.
Mr M J ELLIS: Well, if that is the case, then I will thank him for
his attitude, sir.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): He could be concerned.
PROVISION OF LAND AND ASSISTANCE AMENDMENT BILL
(Consideration of Report)
Mr S ABRAM: Chairperson, during September 2008 this honourable House
debated and approved the Provision of Land and Assistance Amendment
Bill. This Bill is critical for ensuring successful land and
agrarian reform that will contribute to poverty eradication.
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 110 of 125
The Bill empowers the Department of Land Affairs to acquire moveable
assets and fixed properties as going concerns. This includes
agriculture related enterprises so that land beneficiaries, given
the necessary assistance and equipped with appropriate skills, will
be able to operate such enterprises.
Once enacted, the provisions of this measure will enable the
department to facilitate sustainable land reform, contributing to
alleviating the risk of failure.
According to Land Affairs Director-General, Thozi Gwanya, about 50%
of land reform projects have failed or are on the verge of failing.
The portfolio committee believes that the percentage of failures and
those facing problems of sustainability are well in excess of 50%.
The Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs of the NCOP
has proposed that new definitions and a new clause 10A(1) and (2) be
inserted. It proposed a new definition for “agricultural
enterprises” which the portfolio committee accepts, while expressing
concerns that it goes a bit wider by including activities such as
hunting, game propagation, forestry and fishing.
The second definition proposed, is “enterprise”, which the portfolio
committee has no problems with. The select committee proposed a new
class which provides for the creation of trading entities through
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PAGE: 111 of 125
the department that will account for the acquisition, management,
disposal and leasing of property and provision of financial
assistance.
The trading entity will operate in conformity with the provisions of
the Public Finance Management Act. Once established, the entity must
maintain separate and itemised accounts and records of each
agricultural enterprise or separately administered portion of
property that it acquires. Some of us had objections to providing
this kind of role for this entity, raising concerns about the lack
of capacity in the department, which had a 22,7% vacancy rate in the
2007-08 financial year. Furthermore, it will be encroaching on the
role of the Department of Agriculture.
The temptation to create numerous entities, following the
acquisition of going concerns, will lead to undesirable bureaucratic
expansion and the department is advised to act cautiously. Movable
assets can move very fast and be pilfered within days of
acquisition, unless adequate systems exist.
To ensure successful land and agrarian reform, which can contribute
to poverty alleviation and food security, the department will have
to be capacitated with skilled, loyal and accountable patriotic
staff. If one takes what has happened over the last couple of weeks
and months, such as the veld fires in the higher lying areas of the
country and the decimation of vineyards here in the Western Cape,
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 112 of 125
one realises that agriculture is an extremely tricky operation to be
in today.
We need to be extra careful with whatever money we spend on the
acquisition of such entities, and we must first see to it that we
have beneficiaries in tow who are ready, willing and able to take
over such enterprises. We must see to it that these enterprises do
not remain as trading entities within the department because the
state is not there to run agricultural enterprises or businesses.
Its job is to see to it that beneficiaries get them as soon as
possible and that they contribute handsomely towards food security.
The portfolio committee, having made these comments, trusts that the
department, which is not here today, will have access to the Hansard
and take into account the concerns that have been expressed here. We
recommend that the select committee’s amendments be supported.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): Can I also request, when
chairpersons of portfolio committees are not going to introduce the
Bill and they’ve changed, that they inform the chair and give the
name of the hon member who is doing it, otherwise these blanks are
going to cause problems.
Mr M R MOHLALOGA: Chair, on the point that you are raising, it has
always been like that. I was never billed to table the report. It
was always going to be hon Abram who had to table the report.
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 113 of 125
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I am making a simple
request, not only to a particular portfolio committee, but to all
portfolio committees, because I have a string of them which do not
indicate ... [Interjections.]
Mr M R MOHLALOGA: From our side everything was done properly, so it
needs to be investigated whether there is a problem in your system
or not.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr M B Skosana): I do not know how properly
it was done because the name is not here.
Ms L MALONEY: Chair, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the
Majority Party:
That the Bill, as amended, be passed.
Motion agreed to.
Bill, as amended, accordingly passed.
VOTE NO 7, STRATEGIC PLAN FOR 2008/11 OF NATIONAL TREASURY AND
STRATEGIC PLAN FOR 2009/11 OF SOUTH AFRICAN REVENUE SERVICE
(Consideration of Report)
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 114 of 125
There was no debate.
Ms L MALONEY: Chair, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the
Majority Party:
That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
OVERSIGHT VISIT TO SOUTH AFRICAN FORESTRY COMPANY LTD (SAFCOL)
BUDGET HEARINGS OF DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES 2008/2009
OVERSIGHT VISIT TO PEBBLE BED MODULAR REACTOR LTD
OVERSIGHT VISIT TO ALEXKOR
STUDY TOUR OF CHINA AND VIETNAM
SPECIAL MEETING WITH REPRESENTATIVES FROM SOUTH AFRICAN AIRWAYS
(SAA)
(Consideration of Reports)
Ms F I CHOHAN: Chairperson, I am not sure what gremlins have crept
into this system, but Ms Meruti will be tabling the reports on
behalf of the portfolio committee. From our side, we did inform the
Table earlier on.
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 115 of 125
Ms M V MERUTI: Hon Chairperson, hon members, the portfolio committee
hereby tables five reports relating to its oversight functions this
year. We also table another report of the portfolio committee
regarding a visit to China and Vietnam, which was undertaken on 5
August 2007, when I was not yet a member of the committee.
This report makes for fascinating reading. It states that in China,
for instance, there are 159 national state-owned enterprises with 12
trillion yuan in assets and ten million employees. In China the
state-owned enterprises are seen as champions of the economy and
this is an attitude that we need to develop in our country, South
Africa.
The committee visited some of the following public enterprises
during the year. Firstly, we visited the South African Forestry
Company Ltd, Safcol, in Mpumalanga. We note in the report the
tremendous opportunity that the forestry industry provides for job
creation and related industry development, not to mention the
positive contribution forestation can make towards reversing some of
the devastation caused by global warming and climate change. The
quest for clean and sustainable energy has in our epoch reached
urgent proportions.
In this regard, South Africa’s efforts to produce fourth generation
nuclear technology that can be safe, efficient and cost-effective,
is recognised even by our competitors in China. It has generated
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 116 of 125
much interest internationally. Having specifically sought to
understand more, and being concerned about the matter of nuclear
safety, the Committee on Public Enterprises took lectures on the
fundamentals of nuclear physics from a nuclear scientist. Today we
can adequately converse on matters such as nuclear fusion versus
nuclear fission, uranium and enriched uranium.
Alexkor is an entity whose history is entwined with the Richtersveld
community in the far northwest regions of the Northern Cape. The
proper implementation of the settlement agreement between government
and the Richtersveld community has given us, as a nation, the
ability to make a fresh start. This complex agreement will not be
without problems but, should all parties stay the course, a fresh
history for the region and people may be written.
With regard to the meeting with the SAA, the entity was able, in a
very trying economic climate, to avoid the worst-case scenario of
going under. Some of the world’s top airlines, such as Alitalia,
have failed to avoid this. The committee is unhappy with certain
aspects of the management of SAA and the committee notes that they
need to get out of the starting blocks to restructure their business
model if they are to avoid going under.
We also tabled the report on the budget hearings of the Department
of Public Enterprises and, yet again, the department produced an
unqualified audit report. I think it is an honour for them to
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PAGE: 117 of 125
receive an unqualified audit. I imagine that members will forgive me
for not dwelling on the details.
I wish to thank al the members of the committee for their hard work
and dedication and I wish all members of this House a happy festive
season. Thank you.
Ms L MALONEY: I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the Majority
Party:
That the Reports be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Reports accordingly adopted.
FINDINGS OF THE AUDITOR-GENERAL WITH RESPECT TO AUDIT OF DISCLOSURE
OF INTERESTS BY MEMBERS
COMPLAINT AGAINST MINISTER B M N BALFOUR
(Consideration of Reports of Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’
Interests)
Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, the Joint Committee on Ethics and
Members’ Interests has tabled the two reports before the House in
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PAGE: 118 of 125
terms of the provisions of Parliament’s Code of Ethics. The first
report arose from an investigation conducted by the Auditor-General.
This report speaks for itself and does not require further
explanation.
The committee does wish to bring to the attention of this House and
all its members one or two salient points. Most, if not all, of the
business enterprises referred to in the first report, are dormant or
have never traded. However, the fact that a business enterprise has
never traded does not negate a member’s responsibility and
obligation to declare his or her interest in such a business
enterprise.
There exists no distinction in Parliament’s code of ethics between
functioning or trading business enterprises and dormant ones. We
take this opportunity, therefore, to appeal to all members of
Parliament to bear this in mind. It is also significant to note
that, although the Auditor-General audited Parliament’s 2007
disclosures in respect of directorships, the vast majority of hon
members of Parliament were found to have complied with the
provisions of our code.
This brings me to the report and the complaint against the hon
Minister Balfour. Perhaps understandably, this report evoked
enormous interest in both the written and electronic media. Quite
clearly, the rights of the media are enshrined in and protected by
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 119 of 125
our Constitution and, needless to say, we respect those rights and
it is our duty to defend those rights, which we do. We do, however,
wish to make this humble appeal to certain sections, and I stress
certain sections of our media, not to make premature judgements on
these matters.
It is significant that the decision of the ethics committee was
taken unanimously. Every single member present in that meeting
agreed with the findings contained in the reports. With these few
words, I take this opportunity to convey our thanks to the registrar
of member’s interests and the staff for the efficient manner and the
hard work they put into expediting these matters. My thanks also to
all members of the ethics committee for the responsible manner in
which they considered these matters. We commend these reports to
this honourable House and ask that they be adopted and, where
required, be acted upon. I thank you.
There was no debate.
Question put: That the recommendations as contained in the Report of
Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests on Findings of the
Auditor-General with respect to audit of disclosure of interests by
Members be agreed to.
Agreed to.
20 NOVEMBER 2008
Question
put:
PAGE: 120 of 125
That
the
Report
of
Joint
Committee
on
Ethics
and
Members’ Interests on Complaint against Minister B M N Balfour be
adopted.
Agreed to.
VISIT TO ISRAEL, WEST BANK, GAZA STRIP AND SYRIA
STUDY TOUR TO WESTERN SAHARA AND ALGERIA
(Consideration of Reports)
There was no debate.
Ms L MALONEY: Chairperson, I move on behalf of the Chief Whip of the
Majority Party:
That the Reports be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
SUSPENSION/REMOVAL FROM OFFICE OF MAGISTRATE S P ZWELIBANZI, AN
ADDITIONAL MAGISTRATE AT NGQAMAKHWE
SUSPENSION/REMOVAL FROM OFFICE OF MAGISTRATE X R I MASIMINI
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 121 of 125
PROVISIONAL SUSPENSION OF MAGISTRATE A BACHARAM
(Consideration of Reports)
Mr J B SIBANYONI: Chairperson and hon Members of Parliament, these
are the reports in terms of the recommendations by the Minister of
Justice and Constitutional Development. The Portfolio Committee on
Justice and Constitutional Development has discussed the reports and
I stand here today to say that the Portfolio Committee supports the
recommendations made by the hon Minister. Thank you, Chairperson.
There was no debate.
Question put: That the recommendations of the committee be adopted,
namely, that Mr S P Zwelibanzi not be restored to office.
Agreed to.
Decision not to restore Mr S P Zwelibanzi to office accordingly
confirmed.
Question put: That the recommendation of the committee be adopted,
namely, that Mr X R I Masimini not be restored to office.
Agreed to.
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 122 of 125
Decision not to restore Mr X R I Masimini to office accordingly
confirmed.
Question put: That the recommendation of the committee be adopted,
namely, that the provisional suspension of Ms A Bacharam be
confirmed.
Agreed to.
Provisional suspension of Ms A Bacharam accordingly confirmed.
The House adjourned at 17:02.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent
(1)
Bills passed by National Assembly on 20 November 2008:
(a)
Provision of Land and Assistance Amendment Bill [B 40D – 2008] (National
Assembly – sec 75).
20 NOVEMBER 2008
(b)
PAGE: 123 of 125
National Prosecuting Authority Amendment Bill [B 23D – 2008] (National
Assembly – sec 75).
(c)
South African Police Service Amendment Bill [B 30D – 2008] (National Assembly
– sec 75).
2.
Introduction of Bill
(1)
The Ad Hoc Committee on National Youth Development Agency Bill
(a)
National Youth Development Agency Bill [B 82 – 2008] (National Assembly –
proposed sec 75) [Draft Bill and memorandum setting out its objects published in
Government Gazette No 31530 of 24 October 2008.]
Bill initiated by the Ad Hoc Committee on National Youth Development Agency
Bill of the National Assembly, and referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)
for classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of the Bills may be
submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary working days.
National Assembly
The Speaker
20 NOVEMBER 2008
PAGE: 124 of 125
1. Membership of Committees
(a)
Mr V G Smith has been elected as Chairperson of the Standing Committee on the AuditorGeneral with effect from 18 November 2008.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
1.
Report of the Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions on
the legislative proposal to amend the Competitions Act, No 89 of 1998 dated 20 November
2008.
The Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions, having
considered the legislative proposal to amend the Competitions Act, No 89 of 1998 submitted
by Mrs P De Lille, and having consulted with the Department of Trade and Industry,
recommends that permission not be given to the member to proceed with the proposal, as the
recent amendments to the Competition Act already address the objectives of the legislative
proposal.
Report to be considered.
2.
Report of the Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions on
the legislative proposal on outlawing the use of transfats in food prepared for sale to the public,
dated 19 November 2008
The Committee on Private Members’ Legislative Proposals and Special Petitions, having
considered the legislative proposal on outlawing the use of transfats in food prepared for sale to
the public, submitted by Dr R Rabinowitz, and having consulted with the Department of
Health, recommends that permission not be given to the member to proceed with the proposal.
20 NOVEMBER 2008
3.
PAGE: 125 of 125
Report of the Ad Hoc Committee on the National Youth Development Agency Bill [B82 –
2008] (National Assembly – proposed sec 75), dated 20 November 2008:
On 23 September 2008 a resolution was passed by the National Assembly establishing the Ad
Hoc Committee to consider legislation on the National Youth Development Agency.
The Committee gave prior notice of introduction of the draft legislation in Government Gazette
No 31530, dated 24 October 2008. The Gazette also contained an invitation to interested
persons and institutions to submit written submissions on the draft legislation. The Committee
held public hearings on the submissions received and deliberated.
The Committee hereby reports that it has completed its deliberations on the matter and, in
accordance with Assembly Rule 243, introduces the National Youth Development Agency Bill
[B 82– 2008] (National Assembly – proposed sec 75).
4.
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the
Amending Draft Notice and Schedule submitted in terms of section 2(4) of the Judges
Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001), determining
the rate at which salaries are payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges annually,
dated 19 November 2008:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, having considered the
Amending Draft Notice and Schedule submitted in terms of section 2(4) of the Judges
Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, 2001 (Act No 47 of 2001), determining
the rate at which salaries are payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges annually,
referred to it, recommends that the House approve the said Amending Draft Notice and
Schedule.
Request to be considered.