07 JULY 2009
Page 1 of 164
TUESDAY, 7 JULY 2009
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:02.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment
of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mrs S V KALYAN: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next
sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the sale and distribution of herbal
remedies for the treatment of HIV, with particular reference to
the claim made by Revivo as advertised on the ANC Youth League
website, and the role of the Medicines Control Council, MCC, in
this regard.
Mr G R MORGAN: Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on
behalf of the DA:
07 JULY 2009
Page 2 of 164
That the House –
(1)
notes that in December this year the United Nations Climate
Change Conference will convene in Copenhagen;
(2)
notes that participating countries will negotiate a climate
change framework that will replace the existing Kyoto
Protocol;
(3)
notes that South Africa has an important role to play in
these negotiations due to its status as a major emerging
economy of the world; and
(4)
debates the desired outcomes that the South African
delegation should seek at the Copenhagen negotiations.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Speaker, on behalf of the ACDP, I give notice that I
shall move on the next sitting day of the House:
That the House -
(1)
expresses its sincere condolences to the families and friends
of the 31 young men who have tragically died in circumcision
ceremonies this year;
07 JULY 2009
(2)
Page 3 of 164
expresses deep regret that significant numbers of young men
are hospitalised each year after losing parts or all of their
genitalia;
(3)
acknowledges that most of these deaths and mutilations are
linked to illegal initiation schools, notes the department’s
efforts in this regard, calls for a debate on what must be
done to ensure circumcision practices are safe; and
(4)
calls for a public campaign to encourage dialogue at the
level of family and community.
IMPACT ON CLIMATE CHANGE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
(1)
notes that the organisers of the 24th Billabong Pro surfing
competition that starts on 9 July in Jeffreys Bay have
announced that this year’s competition would go green in
order to reduce the competition’s impact on climate change;
07 JULY 2009
(2)
Page 4 of 164
further notes that the organisers have calculated the carbon
footprint of the competition and have identified and
implemented various initiatives to ensure a low-carbon,
climate-friendly event;
(3)
recognises the recent support pledged by the Springboks to
the SA Brewerie’s Greening the Boks project that aims to
offset the carbon emission generated by the team’s transport
and accommodation during their tour;
(4)
acknowledges that both these initiatives encourage all South
Africans to adopt a greener lifestyle and also demonstrate to
sports fans across the country that even the smallest changes
made to their lifestyles can have a significant impact on the
environment;
(5)
congratulates both the organisers of the Billabong Pro
surfing competition and the Springboks for making
environmental conservation a top priority and for
demonstrating that this can be achieved even in sport; and
(6)
calls on all South Africans to commit themselves to reducing
their carbon footprint so that our children can one day also
enjoy the abundant natural resources our country is so richly
blessed with.
07 JULY 2009
Page 5 of 164
Agreed to.
CONSIDERATION OF RECOMMENDATION OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON
COMMUNICATIONS ON APPOINTMENT OF INTERIM SABC BOARD AND IN RESPECT
OF CHAIRPERSON AND DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON THEREOF
Mr I VADI: Speaker, I am pleased to table the committee’s report,
recommending the names of five persons for the interim board of the
SABC. At the outset, I must state that in selecting the five
candidates we were entering uncharted waters. There are no clear-cut
rules that could guide the process, and there is also no
parliamentary precedent for this exercise.
Today we are likely to hear from the DA, arguing that the process to
select the members of the interim board of the SABC was rushed and
that, as the Official Opposition, their candidate was ignored. We
might even hear them saying that the ANC had finalised the names
months ago, or that the ANC is to rename Auckland Park “Polokwane
Park”. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, order! Allow the speaker to be heard. You can
continue.
Mr I VADI: Nothing can be further from the truth. The DA members on
the committee were wholly unprepared for this process.
[Interjections.] They were divided amongst themselves, with the hon
07 JULY 2009
Page 6 of 164
Van den Berg championing one name and the hon Mazibuko another. In
fact, it was the ANC that advised them to caucus among themselves so
that they could come up with a unified list of candidates.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
The ANC was clear from the beginning: We did not want to politicise
the process of selecting members for the interim board. We thought
it inexpedient to make political appointments. [Interjections.]
Instead, we looked for eminent personalities with a combination of
sound corporate management, and financial, legal and media skills.
The committee received proposals of very strong candidates for the
interim board. It spent over four hours trying to reach consensus on
five candidates. I am pleased to report that initially all the
political parties on the committee were able to agree on the names
of four of the five candidates. These were Ms Irene Charnley, Ms
Libby Lloyd, Adv Leslie Sedibe, and a former member of this House,
Ms Suzanne Vos.
It is a real pity that we had to divide the committee on the names
of Prof Phillip Mtimkulu and Prof Mamphela Ramphele, as both are
highly regarded academics with impeccable credentials. In the end,
the committee voted in favour of Prof Mtimkulu.
07 JULY 2009
Page 7 of 164
An HON MEMBER: Of course, we were forced to.
Mr I VADI: Yesterday ... [Interjections.] No, no, listen. Yesterday
the Minister of Science and Technology announced that Prof Ramphele
has been appointed as the chairperson of the Technology Innovation
Agency board. I hope that it will now be clear to the opposition
parties why the ANC thought it imprudent to appoint Prof Ramphele to
the interim board of the SABC. [Interjections.]
The Broadcasting Act requires the NA to recommend to the President
the names of two persons who could serve as the chairperson and the
deputy chairperson of the interim board. The committee is pleased to
suggest that the names of Ms Irene Charnley and Prof Mtimkulu be
considered for the positions of chairperson and deputy chairperson
respectively. If these recommendations are supported by the House
today, they will be appointed by the President for a period not
exceeding six months.
The ANC has noted Cosatu’s concerns about the composition of the
interim board. We agree with the view that the board must be broadly
representative of society as a whole, including the wider labour
movement. The ANC wishes to reassure Cosatu and other stakeholders
in civil society that the processes for the selection and
appointment of the permanent board will be transparent and
inclusive.
07 JULY 2009
Page 8 of 164
We take this opportunity to announce that the invitation calling for
nominations for the permanent board will be issued later this week.
The closing date for such nominations will be 31 July 2009. The
committee calls upon all interested parties throughout the country
to participate in the process.
We trust that the interim board, which we will recommend for
appointment today, will help to stabilise the operations of the SABC
and to restore a measure of proper corporate governance over the
corporation. The task confronting this interim board is, to say the
least, quite daunting, but we are certain that the five candidates
being recommended will rise to the challenge.
In the end, we hope that the drastic step taken by this House to
dissolve the SABC board and to replace it with an interim board will
contribute towards enhancing public confidence in both Parliament as
an institution, and the SABC. The public must know that its elected
representatives will act when things go wrong. Parliament will not
fold its arms and look the other way. I recommend the names to the
House. Thank you very much.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF PRESENCE IN GALLERY OF JUSTICE AKILANO AKIWUMI
07 JULY 2009
Page 9 of 164
The SPEAKER: Before I invite the next speaker, I wish to acknowledge
the presence in the gallery of Justice Akilano Akiwumi, chairperson
of the Kenyan parliamentary tribunal, and his delegation.
[Applause.]
Mr N J VAN DEN BERG: Mr Speaker and hon members, Alexis de
Tocqueville, that masterful observer of the developing American
democracy, once said the following of the great moments in a
nation’s existence:
But epochs sometimes occur in the life of a nation when the old
customs of a people are changed, public morality is destroyed,
religious belief shaken, and the spell of tradition broken, while
the diffusion of knowledge is yet imperfect and the civil rights
of the community are ill secured or confined within narrow limits.
The country then assumes a dim and dubious shape in the eyes of
the citizens ...
I think the ANC and its new-found ally, the IFP, have just
squandered such an opportunity to correct the mistakes made by the
same ANC by appointing a weak council and repeating the same
mistakes again.
Moving from history to modern science, Albert Einstein also remarked
that if we continue the patterns of thought that got us into
07 JULY 2009
Page 10 of 164
trouble, to search for solutions, we are guaranteeing bigger
trouble.
And on this point, I think what we have witnessed with the decision
on the SABC board can best be described as the better we get at
doing the wrong thing, the more wrong we become.
It also reminds me of an interview Max du Preez had with Breyten
Breytenbach in the early nineties when he had the following to say
about a comparison between the ANC and the National Party, the NP:
... eintlik is die NP en die ANC, met hulle houtgeweers ten spyt,
baie nader aan mekaar, want hulle is magshandelaars. [... the NP and
the ANC are actually closer to each other because they are both
power brokers, notwithstanding their wooden guns.]
Yes, Mr Speaker, the ANC and their new, withering ally, the IFP,
have just demonstrated to the rest of South Africa that they do not
recognise the big moments in a nation’s life when they can
fundamentally alter course and change the direction in which our
national broadcaster is moving. They are also still using the same
thinking that brought the previous board into so much trouble to
reappoint this interim board.
By applying the same methods, they are guaranteeing us a failed
outcome and despite all the rhetoric by President Zuma on
07 JULY 2009
Page 11 of 164
international podiums and forums, the ANC only understands political
power that is to their advantage. The fact that the winning party in
an election received a mandate to serve the nation, to rule in the
general interest, is lost to the ANC. Again they have applied their
electoral mandate in the narrowest of applications, that is to be
true to a power broker. Breyten Breytenbach had the insight to see
this more than 15 years ago.
Vryheid van spraak is van die fundamentele beginsels in ons
Grondwet. Die ANC het ongelukkig een van die grootste oomblikke
sedert ons demokrasie se wording opgemors. Van die hand na die mond
val die pap op die grond. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph
follows.)
[Freedom of speech is one of the fundamental principles of our
Constitution. Unfortunately, the ANC has messed up one of the
greatest moments since the advent of our democracy. There’s many a
slip between the cup and the lip.]
The ANC is brilliant in their approach to solving problems. They,
the ANC, don’t have the ability to solve problems. All the ANC is
doing, is to create more problems.
Mr Speaker and hon members, the ANC showed last week in the
Portfolio Committee on Communications how stubborn and irrelevant
they are. They are power hungry! The ANC does not know the meaning
07 JULY 2009
Page 12 of 164
of the word “democracy”! The ANC, together with their new bedmate,
the IFP, bulldozed the five people they decided on onto the interim
board of the SABC.
It is astonishing that after 15 years in government the ANC cannot
learn. They do not have the ability to recognise mistakes. The ANC,
under the influence of power-drunkenness, must remember one thing:
The people of South Africa are not stupid. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Hon members, allow the speaker to be heard.
Mnr N J VAN DEN BERG: Die mense sien die ANC as ‘n wolf in
skaapklere. Wat het geword van die versoenende woorde van ons
President? [The ANC is being viewed as a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
What has become of the reconciliatory words of our President?]
Oh, my word! What empty words! The President said in this House that
the ANC wants to work together with the opposition. Which
opposition? All the DA can say, is: “Et tu, Brute! [And you,
Brutus!]!” The reverend of the IFP is now Reverend Brutus - the man
with blood on his dagger. I can see how the ANC is shivering.
Hulle bewe van vrees vir ware opposisie. [They are shivering in fear
of true opposition.]
07 JULY 2009
Page 13 of 164
Speaker and hon members, what the ANC did in the Portfolio Committee
on Communications was disgusting. All they did was to transform
Niekie van den Berg and all my opposition colleagues into the
fiercest political opponents. [Time expired.]
Mrs J D KILIAN: Speaker, Cope can unfortunately not support the
appointment of the interim SABC board today, since we reject the
ANC’s escalating politicisation of the public broadcaster with
contempt.
We, however, do not question the integrity or the ability of the
individuals who have been nominated. Our concern is that the board
will lack expertise in financial management, which is a key
performance area if the board wants to implement an urgent
turnaround strategy for the corporation in the six months of their
existence.
Cope’s concern is furthermore the fatally flawed process which was
followed. What promised to be an all-inclusive process initially,
with proposals for nomination being tabled by all parties,
unfortunately suddenly turned bad last Thursday when the ANC members
of the portfolio committee dug in their heels and rejected excellent
nominations made by opposition parties, simply because they were
coming from those political parties. They steamrollered the process
by co-opting the IFP – who played a double role in this process –
07 JULY 2009
Page 14 of 164
essentially rejecting quality candidates who could have made a huge
contribution to the interim board.
Speaker, this does not augur well for the independence of the public
broadcaster in the future. Is this yet another attempt to control
the SABC from Luthuli House or from the SACP headquarters in
Braamfontein?
The SABC is facing its worst financial crisis in the history of the
institution, with shocking prima facie evidence having been
presented by the unions. If the arrogance of the ANC is anything to
go by, we might soon face an attempt to cover up some of the
scandalous financial irregularities which might implicate the ANC
further – over and above the T-shirt scandal. Only time will tell!
[Applause.]
Mr K M ZONDI: Speaker, when the NA adopted the motion for the
dissolution of the SABC board, it paved the way for the selection
and appointment of an interim board to direct the affairs of the
SABC until a new board has been selected.
The Portfolio Committee on Communications deliberated on possible
candidates for appointment to the interim board, which are today
presented before this House for consideration and approval. From the
side of the IFP, we urge this House to endorse the names for
appointment to the interim board of the SABC. [Applause.]
07 JULY 2009
Page 15 of 164
There is an urgent need to appoint this interim board, because the
SABC cannot operate without the authority of a board when there’s a
need to take decisions that are beyond the scope and authority of
the executive management of the corporation. The other urgent task
that the interim board has to undertake is to devise a turnaround
strategy and stabilise the financial and managerial affairs of the
corporation. We have no doubt that the individuals who have been
selected are people of impeccable credentials who will be equal to
the daunting task that lies ahead of them. They, however, will have
no magic wand. They will need to operate as a team to save the SABC
from certain disaster, in the interests of the whole nation.
It is true that we, from the opposition parties, strongly urged the
ANC to nominate three out of the five names presented here, so that
the opposition parties could nominate two names, in the interests of
inclusivity. However, when this was not possible, we had to make do
with one name for the sake of progress and the urgency of the
situation. We urge the majority party to be more flexible and
accommodating when the process of the selection of the permanent
board is under way in the near future.
Finally, and very importantly, these people will need our support in
order to succeed. We thank them for making themselves available for
this unenviable task and we wish them well. I thank you. [Applause.]
07 JULY 2009
Page 16 of 164
Mrs P DE LILLE: Speaker, the ID just wants to put on record that we
have no problem with the nominated candidates; we do have a problem
with the process that was followed of bulldozing through an ANC SABC
interim board. I think the chairperson must also explain to this
House why, when at one stage in the caucus the chairperson agreed
that the opposition parties would put in two names, when we came
back this was changed. It became very clear that this was a previous
caucus position, so all the names that were nominated by the
opposition parties were simply disregarded.
I really hope that, when we deal with the appointments of the
permanent board, we will not have names that have already been
agreed to even before we start the process, because then it will be
a waste of time to go and sit for days in interviews, make
contributions and at the end there’s already a list that has been
agreed to outside the portfolio committee.
I really want to plead with the ANC comrades, because we worked well
together over many days trying to sort out the problems of the SABC
board, but right at the end, after four hours of debate, the old ANC
came forward and said: “No, we will give four names, and we will
select one from the opposition parties, the IFP candidate.” I thank
you. [Applause.]
Mr B H HOLOMISA: Betha, betha, betha, amagwala. [Beat, beat, beat
the cowards.]
07 JULY 2009
Page 17 of 164
Speaker, hon Deputy President and hon members, the interim board
should, in conjunction with the Department of Communications, hold a
conference of all stakeholders to once and for all find broad
consensus on what sort of public broadcaster we require.
They must also ensure that, during their tenure, the inquiries into
the allegations of corruption, fraud and mismanagement are not
impeded or interfered with in any way by current SABC executives. In
this regard, we would urge them specifically to look for cases of
gross misconduct already identified in previous inquiries, and
consider whether those implicated executives shouldn’t rather be
suspended, to prevent any attempt to derail the inquiry.
Lastly, they need to resolve the contentious issue that keeps
undermining the public broadcaster. Already there is a dispute about
the credentials of the interim board. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Speaker, the hon Vadi mentioned the word
“consensus”. Now I want to say to the hon member: If you have five
lions and a lamb in a meeting, it’s not very difficult to get
consensus on what they are going to have for lunch! [Laughter.]
Ek wil sê daar is darem so een ligpuntjie in die samestelling van
die tussentydse raad in die naam van Suzanne Vos. Die VF Plus glo
dat dit darem so bietjie van ’n ligpuntjie is. Maar as ’n mens kyk
na die proses wat gevolg is, as ons gaan kyk na die name wat genoem
07 JULY 2009
Page 18 of 164
is, dan wil ek vandag vir u sê ons sien nou maar vir die tussentyd
net die enkelsnit voor die langspeelplaat van “His Master’s Voice”
[Sy meester se stem] wat kom. Die VF Plus sal dit nie steun nie.
Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[With regard to the composition of the interim board, I would like
to say that there is at least one ray of hope in the name of Suzanne
Vos. The FF Plus believes that this is really a ray of hope. But
when one looks at the process that was followed and when one looks
at the names that were mentioned, then I would like to say to you
today that in the interim we are only listening to a single track
before the release of the long-playing record of “His Master’s
Voice”. The FF Plus will not support this. Thank you.]
Mr S N SWART: Speaker, the ACDP regrets that undertakings given by
the ANC to seek consensus on the appointment of the interim SABC
board were not upheld.
It is clear that, as in the past, the ANC used its majority to
bulldoze its wishes through the Portfolio Committee on
Communications. Regrettably, this means that the interim board will
start off on the back foot, not enjoying broad political support.
This could have been easily avoided had the united opposition choice
of Prof Mamphela Ramphele been accepted.
07 JULY 2009
Page 19 of 164
Whist the interim board may have the necessary skills, and the ACDP
has no problem with individual members, regrettably, it has been
politically tainted from the very beginning. This it can ill afford,
considering the huge financial, managerial and corporate governance
issues that it must resolve. The ACDP will, therefore, not support
this report. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr R B BHOOLA: Speaker, the MF realises the necessity of the SA
Broadcasting Corporation, SABC, interim board, but we are concerned
that multiparty wishes have not been taken into consideration.
Furthermore, we say South Africa is a rainbow nation and has a
composite culture. Does the interim board reflect the composite
cross-cultural nature of the South African society? It does not.
This is why there is no sense telling the world, when the Prime
Minister of India comes here, that you praise the various
communities and say that certain minority communities have made
contributions, but you ignore them when you are considering the
composition of the SABC interim board. For this reason, the MF will
abstain. [Applause.]
Mr S E KHOLWANE: Speaker, Deputy President of the Republic of South
Africa, Members of Parliament and our guests, I will start by
saying, maybe lambs must learn not to play with lions so that they
do not get eaten.
07 JULY 2009
Page 20 of 164
When one door closes, many more open. Last week when we debated the
resolution on the dissolution of the board, many speakers said that
it was a sad day for the country, but today we must all agree that
it is a new beginning and a new hope.
As we enter this critical debate today, millions of our people,
including the public broadcaster employees, are anxious. For the
employees and those who believe in the SABC, the tsunami came so
suddenly, destroying their hard-earned savings and putting their
jobs at risk, and they do not trust what they hear, see or read.
Worse, they do not see what will turn things around and many are
close to losing hope.
It remains our resolve to ensure that the right of our people to
receive information is not compromised as we are on record as the
country that needs to create an information society. To this end,
the public broadcaster plays an important role. Our people have a
right to information which allows them to make their choices. And we
should not fail them.
On 30 June 2009, the SABC presented its strategic plan and its
budget. However, it remains important to see how fast they implement
these plans. The country needs your leadership. I am referring to
the interim board, as the SABC is in a war for survival, beset by
fears, uncertainty and doubts.
07 JULY 2009
Page 21 of 164
As on any battlefield, conditions demand a seriously different kind
of leadership from that which is appropriate in peace time. Leaders
must be prepared to make strategic, structural, financial and
operational changes, many of them drastically, in a hurry, sometimes
with incomplete information.
However, what I want to put on record is what really happened. As a
committee we started the process of dealing with the nomination of
the interim board on 25 June 2009, not as it has been reported. We
dealt with that matter on 26 June 2009. We agreed that parties will
make their submissions. When we met on 1 July 2009, Cope, the ID and
the DA came with wish lists. Only the IFP and MF had proposed names.
We were forced to deal with the names of the DA and Cope only on 2
July 2009, in the meeting which started at 12:30, because they did
not honour the decision of the committee to submit their names early
in the morning for the parties to be able to deal with those names.
[Interjections.] That is a fact, nothing else!
It is important to deal with this matter now so that the creation of
this hullabaloo is put into proper perspective.
The appointment of the interim board bears testimony to the fact
that during the engagement all parties submitted their nominations.
It is just that other people behave like children sometimes. When
they are angry, they decide to withdraw everything. Unfortunately we
cannot account for that. [Applause.]
07 JULY 2009
Page 22 of 164
I agree with Comrade Jessie Duarte when she said:
For this reason, the ANC would wish to see a board in place that
is representative of our society in all its manifestations. The
interests of the middle class and business can never be the only
interests that find resonance in the type of people we need on a
board such as the one the SABC must have.
In going forward, learning from the process which we are coming from
and being directed by the legislation, namely the Broadcasting Act,
Act 4 of 1999, which indicates that the board must be
representative, we hope that we are going to be able to engage
meaningfully, including with the opposition, to ensure that we get a
board which is not going to be under dispute and which is going to
be accepted by the society at large.
We followed the issue of T-shirts with great interest because it was
raised in this House. We have received the response from the SABC
clarifying the matter. The response from the SABC is here; it will
be circulated to the parties in the committee. Indeed, we can
confirm that the allegations were misplaced and not correct.
[Interjections.]
I indicated when I started my speech that lambs must not play with
lions if they do not want to be eaten. That is the safe way to go. I
07 JULY 2009
Page 23 of 164
don’t understand what the opposition is raising. I met with COPE. We
had a bilateral with them. Cope persuaded the ANC and said: “In your
five names, there are two lawyers. Can you withdraw one so that you
give us as opposition a name?” We acceded to that as the ANC.
I hope the hon member from Cope will be sincere when dealing with
this matter. I did not hear anything honourable in her statement
when she was on the podium. We engaged bilaterally. We agreed to
withdraw a name to accommodate the opposition. Why can’t people tell
the truth? [Applause.]
Mrs J D KILIAN: Speaker, I want to know if the hon member will take
a question?
Mr S E KHOLWANE: I always take questions in the committee and not
here.
Let us afford the interim board a chance to perform its duties. We
are calling upon the interim board to make sure that the AuditorGeneral’s investigation continues unhindered so that we can uncover
exactly what happened concerning allegations submitted by the
unions.
We would like to appeal to civic society, the public broadcaster
employees and all interested parties to give the board a chance to
07 JULY 2009
Page 24 of 164
steer this troubled ship out of the troubled waters until the new
board is appointed. [Time expired.] Thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Question put: That Ms Irene Charnley, Dr Phillip Frederick Mtimkulu,
Ms Libby Lloyd, Mr Leslie Kgopotso Sedibe and Ms Suzanne Vos be
recommended
Broadcasting
for
appointment
Corporation,
to
and
Ms
the
interim
Irene
board
Charnley
and
of
Dr
the
SA
Phillip
Frederick Mtimkulu be recommended for appointment as chairperson and
deputy chairperson respectively.
Division demanded.
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, are you aware that at the back we have a
number of members who do not have voting mechanisms on their desks
and they will have to vote by raising their hands? I just wanted to
draw that to your attention, sir. The Table staff are aware of it.
The SPEAKER: Thank you. Table staff, the suggestion is that those
members who do not have machines in front of them, will have to come
to the table to record their votes. Do not raise your hands or stand
up, please just come forward to record your votes.
The House divided.
07 JULY 2009
Page 25 of 164
AYES - 239: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Baloyi , M R; BamMugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H
I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R;
Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chabane,
O C; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M;
Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H;
Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlulane
, B N; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I ;
Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L;
Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gina, N;
Godongwana, E; Gololo , C L; Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M;
Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hangana, N E;
Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kenye, T E;
Kganyago, N M; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B
M; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho , G;
Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J;
Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madikizela-Mandela, N W;
Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R;
Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N;
Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H;
Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z
M D; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N;
Martins, B A D; Masango, F T-T; Mashatile, P; Mashigo, R J;
Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P
M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M;
Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mbili, M E; Mdaka, N M; Mdakane, M R;
07 JULY 2009
Page 26 of 164
Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhize, L N;
Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A;
Mocumi, P A; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C;
Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motshekga, M
A; Motshekga, M S; Motsoaledi, P A; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T;
Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T
A; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G;
Ndabeni, S T; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M;
Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J;
Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J;
Nonkonyana, M; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C;
Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyama, M M A; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E;
Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M;
Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pillay,
S M; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S;
Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Rantsolase, M A;
Rasool, E; Saal, G; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale-Diswai, M
J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhidla,
N N ; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J
J; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M;
Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M;
Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F;
Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P;
Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, J H;
Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P;
Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M.
07 JULY 2009
Page 27 of 164
NOES - 96: Adams, L H; Balindlela, Z B; Blaai, B C; Boinamo, G G;
Bosman, L L; Botha, T; Carter, D; Coetzee, T W; Dandala, H M;
Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; De Lille, P; Dexter, P D; Doman, W
P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J;
Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Fritz, A T; Gcume, N P; George, D T;
George, M E; Greyling, L W; Groenewald, P J; Hoosen, M H; James, W
G; Kalyan, S V; Kganare, D A; Kilian, J D; Kloppers-Lourens, J C;
Kohler-Barnard, D; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kopane, S P; Kotsi, C M P;
Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore,
A T; Mac Kenzie, G P D; Madisha, W M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J;
Mashiane, L M; Maynier, D J; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mda, A; Meshoe, K R J;
Michael, N W A; Mnguni, P B; Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; More, E;
Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mulder, C P; Ndude, H N; Ngonyama, L S;
Nhanha, M A A; Njobe, M A; Ntshiqela, P; Ollis, I M; Poho, P D;
Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Schmidt, H C; Schmidt,
J; Selfe, J; Shilowa, M S; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Smuts, M; Spies,
W D; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, S N;
Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Tolo, L J; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen,
P; Van Den Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Westhuizen, A P;
Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Vukuza-Linda, N Y; Waters, M;
Wenger, M.
ABSTAIN - 2: Bhoola, R B; Holomisa, B H.
Question agreed to.
07 JULY 2009
Page 28 of 164
Ms Irene Charnley, Dr Phillip Frederick Mtimkulu, Ms Libby Lloyd, Mr
Leslie Kgopotso Sedibe and Ms Suzanne Vos accordingly recommended
for
appointment
to
the
interim
board
of
the
SA
Broadcasting
Corporation, and Ms Irene Charnley and Dr Phillip Frederick Mtimkulu
as chairperson and deputy chairperson respectively.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Consideration of Report of Standing Committee on Appropriations)
Mr E M SOGONI: Speaker, hon President, hon members of the executive,
colleagues and the public, on behalf of the committee on
appropriations we would like to welcome the proposed technical
amendments by National Treasury and the Minister of Finance. These
technical amendments have no financial implications, but help to
give practical expression to the new, reconfigured departments, as
announced by the President.
As members would be aware, working together with the government and
our people, we have achieved a lot as Parliament in the past 15
years. I’m sure members would agree that the state of our nation and
economy is better than what was inherited in 1994. Since then we
have moved our economy from a period of instability, and we have
seen healthy growth levels. Because of the realities that faced us
then, we had to voluntarily apply our own structural adjustment
07 JULY 2009
Page 29 of 164
programme so that we could achieve our developmental imperatives.
Consequently, the reality that confronts us today is that this
massive growth has not resulted in greater welfare, the eradication
of poverty and greater equality.
However, there is no doubt that we have achieved the highest levels
of growth ever, created a booming and stable economy, and have done
more to create a better life for all our people. Today, with the
expanded budget tabled in this Parliament, we stand better poised to
accelerate the delivery of services to our people and to keep afloat
in the recession as a result of prudent and sound macroeconomic
planning.
We must, however, always be cautious not to remain stagnant and
always seek to improve on these achievements as part of our
trajectory towards liberating the majority of our people from their
dire socioeconomic conditions.
Hon members, as you are aware, we find ourselves in the difficult
time of a recession. This will seriously hamper the ability of our
government and economy to alleviate the hardships or ravaging
poverty and unemployment that our people live under. We have also
learned from this recession that how we have always done things is
not always foolproof in achieving our objectives.
07 JULY 2009
Page 30 of 164
It is with this in mind that our government must ensure that it does
not falter in delivering on its mandate to serve our people. In this
period of recession, our people will be more vulnerable to
increasing levels of poverty and joblessness. They will have nowhere
to look but to their government for interim relief and assurance
that their plight is only temporary and that the government stands
ready to deliver on its medium to long-term plans to significantly
improve their livelihoods.
It is in this regard that I encourage the House to accept the
proposed technical amendments tabled here today, as I believe they
place the state at the centre of our developmental objectives as a
developing state by, one, sharply improving its planning and coordinating capacity; two, placing decent work and sustainable
livelihoods at the apex of state-led industrial and trade policy;
three, fast-tracking massive public-sector investment in rural
development and public infrastructure; four, reviewing development
finance institutions; five, having a much larger National Youth
Service and expanded Public Works; and, lastly, having a larger and
reformed social security system.
We can only achieve these goals if we allow the state to have this
institutional capacity for government-wide economic planning with
the necessary resources and authority to prepare and implement long,
short and medium-term economic and developmental planning. We
envisage that this reconfigured state will continue to depend on our
07 JULY 2009
Page 31 of 164
popular and participatory democracy, on building public-private
partnerships and on a social compact amongst all sectors of our
society aimed at a common developmental agenda. We, therefore,
propose the passing of these technical amendments to the
Appropriation Bill. I thank you, Speaker. [Applause.]
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker and hon Deputy
President, I move:
That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Decision of Question on Votes and Schedule)
The SPEAKER: Hon members, before we proceed to decide on the Votes
and Schedule to the Appropriation Bill, I have to inform you that I
have received proposed amendments to the Appropriation Bill from the
Minister of Finance. The amendments are printed in the name of the
Minister on today’s Order Paper.
07 JULY 2009
Page 32 of 164
The amendments are meant to effect technical corrections to the
Bill, in terms of section 14 of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure
and Related Matters Act, Act 9 of 2009, by creating new Votes
without appropriation for new departments and correcting
departmental names. I now recognise the hon Minister of Finance.
[Applause.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Mr Speaker, Mr Acting President, our guests
from Kenya and hon members, my predecessor Minister Trevor Manuel
tabled the Appropriation Bill in this House on 11 February 2009,
based on the government structure which prevailed at that time,
which was prior to the elections.
On 10 May 2009, President Zuma announced the appointment of
Ministers and Deputy Ministers in terms of sections 91(2) and 93(1)
of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. The portfolios
of these Ministers required a reorganisation of departments,
including the renaming of national departments and the establishment
of new national departments to support the Ministers in executing
their respective mandates.
The amendments being tabled today provide for the new Vote structure
that gives effect to the new government structure. The 2009
Adjustments Appropriation Bill will provide a more detailed
breakdown of the impact of the structural changes on the format of
07 JULY 2009
Page 33 of 164
the Appropriation Bill. I hereby move the amendments as printed in
my name on the Order Paper. Thank you. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: Order! We now proceed to decide on the Votes and
Schedule of the Appropriation Bill, as amended. I wish to thank
parties for advising their staff on which Votes they intend making
declarations on in order to record their objections and over which
Votes they intend dividing. This information will greatly assist the
process this afternoon.
I will put each Vote and ask parties for declarations of vote, as
they have indicated. Members may make declarations of vote from the
floor microphones if they wish. After that I will put the Vote for
decision. I have been advised that, by agreement, declarations will
be limited to two minutes. The bells will be rung for five minutes
for the division on a vote, but only for one minute on subsequent
divisions.
Amendments agreed to.
Vote No 1 - The Presidency - put.
Declarations of vote:
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the violent protests and
demonstrations taking place in our country on a weekly basis, the
07 JULY 2009
Page 34 of 164
latest being in Diepsloot this past weekend, are of major concern to
us. The Presidency should be reassuring all residents who say they
have been waiting for 15 years for government to fulfil its
promises.
The ACDP believes that ignoring and arresting protesters only is not
the solution. Those who make promises, including the Presidency,
should communicate with disgruntled members of the public and, where
practically possible, give these members of the public new
timeframes indicating when they can expect their concerns to be
addressed.
The ACDP will support the budget of the Presidency as an indication
to the Presidency that we want it to succeed in addressing the
challenges facing our nation, particularly the challenge to provide
clean running water, proper sanitation and decent houses for our
people. I thank you.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, the ANC supports
the Presidency Budget Vote. In our view, it provides concrete
directives and practical meaning to the five national priorities
identified as an axis around which service delivery must be driven
to push back the frontiers of poverty.
We are assembled here determined to fulfil that most solemn
undertaking to build a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and
07 JULY 2009
Page 35 of 164
prosperous society in which all people are free from the shackles of
exploitation, fear, want and disease.
The Presidency Budget Vote is our commitment to our people and
before the eyes of the world that without decent work, the security
of people, quality and accessible education and health services, the
recovery of the humanity of all our people will remain a pipe dream.
The Presidency Budget Vote reflects the ruling party’s commitment to
serving the people of South Africa as a whole in line with the five
priorities that the ANC put before the people of South Africa.
The establishment of the departments for planning, monitoring and
evaluation will ensure that the government does not act in silos and
that the Presidency exercises internal oversight of the executive
branch of government. The commitment of the Presidency to subject
itself and its administration to oversight by this Parliament augurs
well for the entrenchment and deepening of democracy in South
Africa.
The call for an activist Parliament and the endorsement thereof by
this House will ensure that the resources made available by this
House are utilised to provide quality and affordable services to all
South Africans. Members of this House will hold the executive
accountable, without fear or favour, for the delivery of quality,
07 JULY 2009
Page 36 of 164
accessible and affordable services to all the people. Thank you very
much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 2 - Parliament – put and agreed to.
Vote No 3 - International Relations and Co-operation, formerly
Foreign Affairs - put
Declarations of vote:
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the ACDP will support this Budget
Vote 3 on International Relations and Co-operation. We want to
encourage government to continue rejecting attempts by the current
chairman of the AU, Libya’s Muammar Gaddafi, to coerce African
states into forming the United States of Africa. We believe that
priority should be given to strengthening regional bodies like SADC.
We further want to appeal to government to resist Muammar Gaddafi’s
reported alleged attempts to persuade African countries, including
South Africa, which have ratified the International Criminal Court
Treaty, to limit co-operation with it. This is particularly because
the African countries he has targeted concluded that the ICC,
International Criminal Court, was pursuing the same basic goals as
the AU, and that the AU should engage more with the court. We
07 JULY 2009
Page 37 of 164
appreciate South Africa’s stance in saying we would not agree with
Muammar Gaddafi. Thank you.
Mr T W NXESI: Chairperson, the ANC supports the Budget Vote for
International Relations and Co-operation. It is our firm belief, as
the ANC, that this Budget will advance the key strategic priorities
in our engagement at the international level, which include the
consolidation of our African agenda in terms of promoting peace,
stability and human rights, the promotion of national interests in
relation to the political and economic interest both in the south
and in the north, and lastly, the promotion of multilateralism
instead of unilateralism.
We believe very firmly that this budget goes a long way towards
promoting that engagement with the progressive forces of the world,
including issues of transforming the UN system. We support this
budget, and want to make the ACDP comfortable in that, as part of
that engagement in the African agenda, that is where we are engaging
Gaddafi. Thank you.
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.
Declarations of vote:
07 JULY 2009
Page 38 of 164
Mrs J F TERBLANCHE: The DA will support the Home Affairs budget
because we believe that Minister Dlamini-Zuma is serious about her
undertaking to turn the department around, and that she has been
open and honest about problems facing the department. She has also
announced measures to deal with those problems in her Budget speech
on 26 June 2009.
For the benefit of this House, I would like to reiterate the call to
the Minister to address the following priorities: the filling of
existing vacancies; the eradication of existing backlogs within
three months; the intensification of efforts to root out corruption
in the department, especially with regard to new information that
corruption in this department has risen by 415% between 2006 and
2008; and to launch an investigation into the cost of the Who am I
Online project. Thank you.
Ms A MDA: Hon Chair and the House, Cope welcomes the budget by the
Ministry, and further acknowledges that the department has committed
itself to working with all citizens to make this department one of
which the government can be proud.
During the department’s Budget Vote, Cope highlighted the fact that
this is the most crucial department in the life of every citizen in
this country. This department continues to represent the commitment
of government to ensure that no one is deprived of his or her rights
and benefits as a result of not having an identity document.
07 JULY 2009
Page 39 of 164
The current challenges, which continue to render the department
ungovernable and conditions in it unbearable, remain a cause for
concern for Cope. Some of these include, but are not limited to, ID
forgery and fraud, which has not yet been rooted out. I want to
allude to the fact that, as a result of these loose and reckless
Home Affairs systems, the United Kingdom, after they realised that
our identity document and passport are easily forged, has had to
enforce a decision that all South Africans visiting that country now
have to have a visa.
Cope calls on Home Affairs to fast-track the process of introducing
the new passport with the new features, which will make it difficult
to forge, or to use for any other act of corruption.
Cope pledges to assist the Ministry, more especially after the
commitment that the Minister has made, but while we acknowledge the
co-operation and the commitment by the Ministry, we continue, as
Cope, to believe that the state that the department is in currently
really deserves urgent attention.
It is on the basis of the founding principles of Cope, and of our
commitment to a clean, transparent, and people-focused government
that Cope will find it hard to sign this blank cheque of supporting
the Budget Vote against the backdrop of all these significant areas
of concern that we have raised. We believe these areas of concern
really deserve an immediate and prompt response.
07 JULY 2009
Page 40 of 164
We, however, pledge our support and co-operation to the Ministry in
its attempts to change the state of affairs in the department. Thank
you.
Ms H N MAKHUBA: Chairperson, while the IFP supports the Budget Vote
for Home Affairs, there are certain concerns that we would like to
raise.
The UK has imposed visa requirements on South African passport
holders as a result of non-South Africans entering Britain with
fraudulently obtained South African passports. The visa requirements
were imposed after South African authorities had failed to
adequately deal with the problem identified by the British
authorities, despite being given an extra six months to do so.
Corruption within this department is rife and must be eradicated if
the worth of our passport is to be restored, and the department is
to successfully fulfil its mandate. We wish you well, hon Minister.
Thank you.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, the ACDP would have thought that this
department, more than any other, could have been divided and
restructured. Migration, immigration and related issues, for
example, surely need a dedicated and more specific response.
07 JULY 2009
Page 41 of 164
South Africa’s Home Affairs department has been crippled by
corruption and inefficiency over many years. In 2005 a young man won
the sympathy of many South Africans when he held a Home Affairs
official hostage with a fake gun, demanding his identity document which is vital in every aspect of daily life - after a two-year wait
for it.
We do appreciate, however, that turning this department around is
going to be a mammoth task, but we are concerned by the shocking
number of documents and files being lost. It is now almost expected
by document seekers that they will have to apply more than once, if
not many times, which is a costly exercise in time and money. People
are waiting up to three years for approval of citizenship and
permanent residence only to be told that documents are lost.
We can only hope that this budget will address issues of poor
administration and corruption highlighted in the recent report by
the US state department regarding fraudulent passports; identity
documents and work permits; border security challenges; and sociocultural attitudes and document fraud, which negatively affect
government’s ability to pursue and intervene in counterterrorism
initiatives.
The ACDP notes the additional allocation for the World Cup, and is
pleased to see preparations for the free and speedy World Cup events
07 JULY 2009
Page 42 of 164
visa, which include separate facilities for soccer fans at airports
to avoid congestion.
We are however, concerned that, with the smoke screen of the World
Cup to shelter trafficking and terrorist agendas, we need to
increase our capacity in this regard. The ACDP has grave concerns,
but we will be supporting this budget as the new Minister attempts
to tackle these enormous challenges. Thank you.
Mr J J MCGLUWA: Chairperson, the ID wants to say thank you to the
hon Minister, Dr Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma. During the Home Affairs
Budget Vote speech, I raised a specific concern about the level of
service at the offices in Barrack Street. This concern had been
brought to my attention by an ordinary member of the public. Just
two days later, on a Sunday afternoon, I was called by the office of
the Minister regarding my query. This matter was solved amicably
within a week. [Applause.] The Minister has thus far lived up to her
promise to be candid about the massive challenges in the department
and to deal with the officials who do not provide proper service to
our people.
The ID has closely followed her progress for the last two months and
is also impressed with her commitment to root out corruption.
We, as the ID, are very happy that we finally have a Minister that
is not scared to roll up her sleeves and clean up the Department of
07 JULY 2009
Page 43 of 164
Home Affairs. We will join her in singing together, “Awuleth
iwashing mashini”. The ID supports the Budget. [Laughter.]
Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, it is common cause that there are huge
problems within this department. We have heard about some and
experienced some of them. But it is also not true that everything is
just wrong. There are many officials in that department who are
doing their utmost to give a good service to the public.
I applied for a new passport on 8 May 2009 at the Malmesbury branch
of the Department of Home Affairs. I downloaded the forms beforehand
and completed them. It took me only 22 minutes to be serviced from
my arrival up until I left, and it is less than eight weeks now but
I have already received my new passport. I thank you very much for
that. [Applause.]
I think it would be wrong for members today to vote against this
Budget Vote because, even though we have lots of problems, let us
give the Minister and the department a chance and see where we are
next year. We all support the Budget. [Applause.]
Mr B A D MARTINS: Hon Chairperson, the issues raised by the
opposition parties were dealt with frankly and honestly by the
Minister and the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs in the budget
debate of the department. There is a turnaround strategy in place to
07 JULY 2009
Page 44 of 164
deal with the issues which members have raised, and some of the
successes have been attested to by the members themselves.
The portfolio committee will nevertheless continue to ensure that
the department complies with legislation and governance matters. The
ANC supports the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 5 - Public Works – put and agreed to.
Vote No 6 - Government Communication and Information System – put
and agreed to.
Vote No 7 - National Treasury – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP shares the Minister’s concerns
that we are already R18 billion behind in our revenue projections
and that it is estimated that the budget deficit may rise to 7% of
GDP, or an additional R50 billion to R60 billion will have to be
found. Whilst our level of debt is relatively low by international
standards, if our debt service costs rise, it will mean that
government would have less money to spend.
07 JULY 2009
Page 45 of 164
Once the recession bottoms out, government will need to bring the
deficit down again by curbing spending. The ACDP supports the
finance Minister in this regard, who stated that the fiscus base to
maintain government spending by borrowing was not limitless and that
a period of fiscal consolidation must follow once the country
emerges from recession. However, at this stage - and now there is an
urgency for government to recognise and address the problem of
wasteful and ineffective spending – we, as MPs, need to take up the
challenge issued during the Budget speech that we should play a more
active role in challenging accounting officers to plan their
efficiency saving initiatives upfront and report regularly on
progress. This is so particularly since we, as MPs, will be able to
amend the budget next year.
How sympathetic can we be, when accounting officers of departments
do not play their part? The ACDP also agrees that we need a thorough
assessment of all government’s programmes to see how we can improve
value for money and identify areas where we can eliminate or reduce
wastage. We need to ensure that as we spend more, we spend better.
The ACDP will support this Budget Vote. Thank you.
Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, the IFP will support this Budget Vote, and
we would like to thank the hon Minister for the very frank and
detailed responses he gave during the budget debate.
07 JULY 2009
Page 46 of 164
An area of concern is the support to municipalities. We find that
the financial status of many municipalities around the country is
disastrous, to say the least, and we think National Treasury has to
make sure that the support to municipalities, whether it is
administrative support or any other support, is forthcoming, so they
can have good audit reports.
The other area that we would like National Treasury to look into in
detail, is the performance audit of entities that are connected with
government employees and doing business with national departments.
If one reads this report you will find that there are many employees
in government doing business as members of close corporations or
their spouses are doing business with their own departments or with
other government departments. This has to stop because there is a
conflict of interest and Treasury regulations are being violated.
Monitoring and evaluation are going to be very important and we are
very pleased by the response of the hon Minister and the department
to look into these things. We support the Vote. Thank you.
Mr T A MUFAMADI: Chairperson, hon Acting President and hon members,
when we look at this Budget, as the ANC we are quite confident that
the Budget addresses key priorities as stated in our manifesto.
Also, despite the difficult situation we find ourselves in as a
country, we are convinced that with the Budget, as outlined, and the
objectives of Treasury and the relevant institutions such as Sars
07 JULY 2009
Page 47 of 164
and Statistics SA, we can confidently say to our people out there
that we are in no position to sacrifice their aspirations,
particularly in areas of access to education, health, rural
development and integration of the economies of these rural areas.
We also see in this Budget that it is quite instructive that the
issue of skills maintenance and retention within the department
gives us confidence that, moving into the future, we will be able to
manage the resources of the country without any doubt. We also see
in the Budget itself that the area of economic transformation is
quite central to ensuring that our people do not remain passive
recipients of social grants, but that they will in actual fact
become active participants and real players in the economy. We
support this Budget, Chairperson, without any hesitation. Thank you
very much. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 8: Public Administration Leadership and Management Academy –
put and agreed to.
Vote No 9: Public Service and Administration – put and agreed to.
Vote No 10: Public Service Commission – put.
Declarations of vote:
07 JULY 2009
Page 48 of 164
Prof C T MSIMANG: Chairperson, while the IFP supports this Vote, I
record the following concern. The IFP is firmly opposed to a single
Public Service reiterated in the Budget Vote. Firstly, this will
create a bloated, cumbersome and unmanageable Public Service open to
more rampant corruption. More time will be absorbed in responding to
bureaucratic challenges, instead of accelerated service delivery.
Secondly, this runs counter to the letter and spirit of the
Constitution, which entrenches three distinctive interdependent and
autonomous spheres of government. In actual fact, the IFP sees the
collapse of provincial and local government structures as a centrist
ploy by the department to amass all power in Pretoria, instead of
taking government closer to the people, which is the hallmark of
democracy. I thank you.
Mrs J C MOLOI-MOROPA: Chairperson, the Public Service Commission has
been engaged in doing quite a good task, which the commission for
public service and administration is acknowledging. Most of the
reports that we deal with were compiled by this commission and, as a
matter of fact, we all believe that this commission is really
working very well.
I must indicate that noncompliance, even including corruption, has
been exposed by the Public Service Commission. As a matter of fact,
I am sure all of us on the committee do agree – those who attend,
07 JULY 2009
Page 49 of 164
with the exception of the IFP, because they do not come to the
committee meetings.
Even with the opposition we have been working constructively in
terms of constructive criticism and by mapping a positive way
forward. We’ve got a good spirit of working together, and we believe
that we will definitely make an impact in moving forward. We would
encourage the IFP to participate, and they will understand how we
are moving forward. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 11 - Statistics South Africa – put and agreed to.
Vote No 12 - Arts and Culture – put.
Declaration of vote:
Dr A LOTRIET: Chairperson, the DA supports this budget as the budget
allocations are in line with the stated objectives of the different
programmes. However, concern has to be raised regarding the
qualified audit reports it has received in the past, specifically
the findings of the qualified Auditor-General’s report of 2007-08,
namely the underspending of more than R21 million on Programme 2:
Arts and Culture in Society and Programme 6: National Archives,
Records, Libraries and Heraldic Services; insufficient evidence to
07 JULY 2009
Page 50 of 164
substantiate the amount of more than R49 million relating to
subsistence and travel expenditure; a possible irregular expenditure
in the amount of more than R54 million; and noncompliance with the
applicable legislation.
Although the Minister has replied to these matters in the Budget
debate, we have to realise that these matters are extremely serious
and can impede implementation.
Concern was also raised regarding the qualified audit finding
received by some of the arts and culture institutions such as the
National Library of SA, the Northern Flagship Institution and the SA
State Theatre.
The DA will monitor the progress and implementation of the budget
closely by requesting quarterly feedback to the portfolio committee.
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 13 - Education – put.
Declarations of vote:
Dr W G JAMES: Chairperson, the DA objects to the Education budget on
the grounds that when it comes to schooling it does not provide
adequate financial support for training, recruitment, in-service
07 JULY 2009
Page 51 of 164
development, performance management, retention and salary, that is,
the full value chain, for teachers in Grades 1 to 12.
It does not adequately provide for the professionalisation of Grade
R teachers. The DA appreciates the fact that the Occupation-Specific
Dispensation agreement for teachers was signed in April 2008, and
that the general promise is for good teachers to be better paid.
Good teachers affect eternity by nurturing aspiring minds. The
budget goes far, but it does not go far enough, to support them in
the task that should charm, strengthen, steer and not dull the
imagination of the young.
We have no difficulty with the budget for Higher Education but we
have a little quarrel with the funds set aside for the SA
Qualifications Authority, SAQA, the Council for Quality Assurance in
General and Further Education and Training, known as Umalusi, and
the Council on Higher Education.
Funding set aside for the National Student Financial Aid Scheme,
NSFAS, is adequate, but our education authorities must find a
solution to the underspending of those funds at university level.
Finally, we encourage the Ministry of Higher Education and Training
to start negotiating with, rather than issuing instructions to the
07 JULY 2009
Page 52 of 164
provinces over the structure for teacher training colleges. Thank
you.
Ms A MDA: Chairperson, Cope supports the budget but wishes to place
on record the following concerns: given the fact that Education gets
the much bigger slice of the national Budget, we would expect the
Ministers concerned to apply themselves to such critical success
factors as improved conditions, especially in rural areas, for
teachers and learners, so that teachers can teach and learners can
learn. Also, government needs to conduct intensive teacher training
on the many changes brought upon them, including the National
Curriculum Statement.
Regarding Higher Education and Training, a number of learners who
enter the education system somehow get lost in the process and never
come out. We therefore need a tracker system to follow learner
progress, or lack thereof, so that we can all influence the outcomes
we wish to see. Thank you.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chairperson, there is no doubt that our education
system, despite budgetary allocations, which is the budget we
support, remains seriously dysfunctional at all levels. Firstly, I
want to express the IFP’s concern about the implementation of policy
by provinces, and the monitoring thereof by the Department of
Education. Take, for example, the KwaZulu-Natal department of
education, which awarded Indiza a multimillion-rand tender to
07 JULY 2009
Page 53 of 164
deliver textbooks to schools across the province, which were never
delivered. Hence, quality of education suffered.
Then, look at the feeding scheme in the Eastern Cape which has
collapsed completely, and as we debate now, thousands and thousands
of children in schools in the northern part of KwaZulu-Natal,
covering the entire Umkhanyakude District, are not being fed because
the feeding schemes there too have collapsed.
The IFP calls on the Minister of Education immediately to
investigate these matters.
It is clearly due to a lack of proper monitoring by the Department
of Education that such glaring dysfunctionality within the education
system is allowed to continue.
The Department of Education has on numerous occasions admitted that
our system remains the weakest at district level. Yet for two
consecutive budgetary years there has been no allocation to
strengthen and improve education at district level, where we need
more subject advisors, more adequately qualified teachers and more
teaching aids.
Lastly, schools cannot remain “black boxes” where nobody knows,
including the hon Minister, what is going on inside there. Open up
07 JULY 2009
Page 54 of 164
schools across the country urgently for routine inspections. We
cannot allow unions to continue protecting their turf. I thank you.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, Chairperson. Education’s significance in
reducing poverty and accelerating long-term economic growth demands
that it continues to utilise the largest portion of the national
Budget. The ACDP supports Higher Education and Training plans to
expand education opportunities for matriculants through an expanded
college sector focusing on more teacher training sites, agriculture,
nursing and the training of artisans.
We also note the expressed intention of the department to expand the
school nutrition programme to high schools, reduce class sizes and
increase the access of five-year-old Grade R learners. The ACDP
believes that it is going to be important that the portfolio
committee monitors progress in these crucial aspects.
One of the major problems with education today is that teachers are
not allowed to be teachers. They are inundated with administration,
lesson plans for every lesson, marking, assessments and never-ending
forms to fill in. Our children are assessed and assessed again but
they are not being taught. This rigid control dilutes the unique
teaching ability of individual teachers, and our children have
become statistics and not learners.
07 JULY 2009
Page 55 of 164
The capping of school fees is a highly contentious issue and should
not be entered into lightly. Often interventions that appear to be
obvious solutions have severe and damaging unintended consequences.
Significant numbers of children between the ages of 7 and 15 have
either never attended school or have dropped out for various
reasons. Bringing these children into schools will necessitate
targeted interventions to deal with varied circumstances.
The plight of our out-of-school children with disabilities is also a
concern. The ACDP has serious concerns, particularly with OBE and
curriculum deficiencies, and will not be supporting this budget.
Thank you.
Mr N M KGANYAGO: Chairperson, Deputy President of the Republic of
South Africa, Ministers and Deputy Ministers of the Republic of
South Africa, Members of Parliament of the Republic of South Africa,
basic education concerns itself with those matters which, once
learned, enable the learner to grasp all other matters whether
trivial or complex. Concerns about the quality of education have
been raised for many years. Today our schools are in trouble. Youth
is in rebellion.
There can be no argument that the abiding issue in primary schools
today is that of helping all children achieve adequate levels of
literacy. Strangely, in a country showered with adequate resources,
South Africans still find themselves with the highest levels of
07 JULY 2009
Page 56 of 164
reading disabilities in the world, at least amongst those countries
whose national goals include universal literacy.
Compounding the nationwide problem is the endemic and exceedingly
high incidence of reading disability among our youth from
disadvantaged backgrounds, aggravated by the absence of libraries
and computer centres in their communities.
This reading problem is not new. Its existence and its apparent
severity in our society have received widespread notice for many
years, dating back to the apartheid era. Nonetheless, it is rapidly
escalating in our schools and catching the attention of the media,
which report that vast numbers of our primary school learners cannot
read. These are the ones who get lost in big cities and fall prey to
thugs who roam the streets, day and night.
Our highest priority as a nation must be placed upon solving the
problem of illiteracy. Grave reading and writing deficiencies are
considered to be major stumbling blocks in gaining access to a
successful and happy life. Government must do more! [Time expired.]
Mr M L FRANSMAN: Hon Chairperson, I hereby rise to support the
Education Vote. Listening to the DA’s objection, we, as the ANC, say
that we have recognised the problem of education as one of the
central issues to be tackled over the next five years. In fact, we
07 JULY 2009
Page 57 of 164
will have to tell the voters that the DA has objected to the R140
billion spent in this budget.
We will make sure that early childhood development, ECD, is being
expanded, the school nutrition programme is being expanded, the
outreach to matriculants is being expanded and a critical focus on
scarce skills is being dealt with.
In the Budget debate, we have also highlighted the reality that the
focus must be placed on a training and skills revolution. We have,
as a committee, identified that at least 40% of young people between
the ages of 15 and 24 are unemployed; therefore, our interventions
through this budget.
Today we have visited the National Student Financial Aid Scheme,
NSFAS, and we have asked them to work in close partnership not only
with schools, but also with higher education institutions.
Therefore, as the ANC, we support this budget, but together we will
be able to do more over the next 5 to 10 years. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 265: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Adams, L H; Balindlela, Z B;
Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bikani, F C;
07 JULY 2009
Page 58 of 164
Blaai, B C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Borman, G
M; Botha, T; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I;
Carter, D; Cebekhulu, R N; Chabane, O C; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T
D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N;
Dandala, H M; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dexter, P D; Dhlamini, B
W; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini, B O; Dlamini-Zuma, N C;
Dlulane, B N; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I;
Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L;
Gaehler, L B; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcume, N P; Gcwabaza, N E;
Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L;
Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M;
Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F; Hanekom , D A; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P;
Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E;
Kganare, D A; Kganyago, N M; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khunou, N
P; Kilian, J D; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kota-Fredericks,
Z A; Kotsi, C M P; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lishivha,
T E; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R;
Mabuza, M C; Mac Kenzie, G P D; Madasa, Z L; Madikizela-Mandela, N
W; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K
R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makasi, X C;
Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I;
Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M
C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; MapisaNqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masango, F T-T; Mashatile, P;
Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mataboge,
D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N ;
07 JULY 2009
Page 59 of 164
Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mbili, M
E; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mda, A; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M
P; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhize, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E
M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A;
Molao, S K; Molebatsi, M A; Molewa, B E E; Moloi-Moropa, J C;
Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motshekga, M
A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Msweli, H S;
Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F
F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabeni, S T; Ndlovu, V B; Ndude,
H N; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S;
Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngonyama, L S; Ngwenya, W;
Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhanha, M A; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J;
Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntshiqela,
P; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, S;
Nyekemba, E; Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L;
Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J;
Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Poho, PD; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A;
Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M;
Rantsolase, M A; Rasool, E; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; SegaleDiswai, M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S;
Shilowa, M S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N;
Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F;
Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M;
Stofile, M A; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E;
Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tolo, L J; Tseke,
G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok,
07 JULY 2009
Page 60 of 164
B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van
Schalkwyk, M C J; Vukuza-Linda, N Y; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xasa,
T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M.
NOES - 64: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W; Davidson, I O;
De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D; Dudley, C;
Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Fritz, A T;
George, D T; Groenewald, P J; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; KloppersLourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R;
Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Madisha, W
M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Michael, N W A;
Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S;
Mulder, C P; Ollis, I M; Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M
W; Schmidt, H C; Schmidt, J; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C;
Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M;
Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Van Dalen, P; Van Der
Berg, N J; Van den Linde, J J; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S
M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.
ABSTAIN - 2: George, M E; Mncwango, M A.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 14 - Health – put.
Declarations of vote:
07 JULY 2009
Page 61 of 164
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the Minister of Health has inherited the
poisoned chalice from his predecessor, Minister Manto TshabalalaMsimang. The fact that we have 12 000 vacancies for doctors and
42 000 for nurses did not happen on its own. It took careful and
deliberate action or nonaction, as the case may be.
Due to the underfunding of health care, health professional salaries
were eroded by inflation, and working conditions became unbearable.
As people left, they were not replaced. This created an everincreasing vicious circle. This year’s budget is certainly no
different as the underfunding continues.
The failure to make adequate provision for doctors’ occupationspecific dispensation, OSD, increases - despite agreeing to this
some two years ago - is of great concern to the DA. In order to pay
doctors, you would have had to allocate R2,5 billion in the budget.
Sadly, only R1 billion has been provided - a 60% shortfall in this
regard.
The underfunding of the ARV programme to the tune of R7 million or
70% of the budget is also a great concern. This means that people
who should be receiving these life-saving drugs will not be doing
so, resulting in many people facing certain death.
07 JULY 2009
Page 62 of 164
The department has, in the past seven years, only received one
unqualified audit report. Given the seriousness of the underfunding
I have outlined, the Minister may consider cancelling, as a gesture,
his Budget Vote dinner tonight in the Marks Building. I don’t see
the Minister, though, in the House at the moment.
Minister, the DA appreciates the fact that you are new in your
position. We will support you when we believe you are correct. We
are sceptical of what you will be able to achieve, given that many
of your top officials are a hangover from the days of denial, garlic
and beetroot. [Laughter.]
The fact that the department could not even deliver the strategic
plan on time is an indication of this failure and inability. Unless
a new and fresh set of ideals is put in place at the top of the
department, we believe very little will change. I hope, Minister – I
hope his colleagues will pass this message on to him - that next
year the DA can stand here, in all honesty, and vote for the budget.
Sadly, this year we cannot. Thank you.
Mr D A KGANARE: Mr Chairperson, I have to state from the outset that
I like the hon Minister and his deputy. They are my comrades.
[Laughter.] But Cope is convinced that the Health Budget Vote for
the 2009-10 financial year does not address the following.
07 JULY 2009
Page 63 of 164
There is no programme to ensure that hospitals and clinics are
managed by qualified, skilled, efficient and effective managers. The
hon Minister should conduct a skills audit to ensure that these
institutions are properly managed. But it is clear that he has no
intention to do so. Consequently, we must expect to still have long
queues in hospitals. We must still expect dirty clinics and
hospitals which are not properly staffed and without medicine. We
will still hear more talk of infrastructure improvement without any
implementation. We will hear more talk of the launch of some
operation which sounds like a military operation, without any
implementation plan.
The manner in which the Minister handled and continues to handle the
OSD issue is indicative of forthcoming disasters. He is putting the
lives of our people, especially the poor, at risk. The hon Minister
knows that the rich can easily buy health services. Instead of
implementing the agreement, he is attempting to reopen negotiations.
He tells the nation that the doctors are on strike when he has
locked them out. This backpedalling means that the Minister cannot
be trusted to abide by the agreements he enters into.
Last month, the hon Minister informed this House that he will
release a national health insurance, NHI, document within a few
days. Since then, nothing has happened. We are still waiting for
“some few days” to pass. These are some of the reasons why Cope does
not support this Health budget. [Applause.]
07 JULY 2009
Page 64 of 164
Mrs H S MSWELI: Chairperson, the health care system of our country
is in a dismal state. It does not promote the health of the millions
of South Africans through an accessible, caring and high-quality
health care system as it is meant to. The Department of Health has
failed many South Africans who rely on it to provide them with
quality health care. Drastic changes are needed if there is to be a
real improvement in our health care system and an improved service
to the many people who are reliant on it.
Once again, we, the IFP, do understand that the new Minister has
inherited this system. We do hope that he makes strides in
correcting it, but the IFP cannot support this Budget Vote. I thank
you.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, provincial spending intended to facilitate the
roll-out of the Prevention of Mother-to-Child Transmission
Programme, as well as expand access to antiretrovirals for people
living with HIV, will have to be closely monitored. Reports that
government will be short of R1 billion for HIV and Aids drugs in
this financial year raise serious concerns. We cannot afford a
repeat of the shortages experienced in the Free State earlier this
year. South Africa has one fifth of the world’s HIV-infected people.
Yet, there has been no proper costing. So, we do not really know
what we require to meet the need for treatment - this must be done.
07 JULY 2009
Page 65 of 164
Maternal, child and women’s health and nutrition is another concern
for the ACDP. Each year, according to statistics, 1 600 women die
from complications in pregnancy and childbirth; 20 000 babies die
before they are a month old; 75 000 children die before the age of
five; and 20 000 children are stillborn. Shockingly, some have
concluded that the easy way out of this dilemma is for women not to
carry their babies to full term. In addition to statistics, hundreds
of thousands more babies have been destroyed in their mothers’ wombs
in line with government policy.
Efforts to strengthen emergency medical services in line with the
2010 Fifa World Cup commitments are noted and welcomed. However,
appalling conditions in hospitals with a drastic shortage of beds
and staff do not appear to be a major consideration in this budget.
The ACDP would like to give the new administration and the new
Minister the benefit of the doubt. However, due to our grave
concerns, including about the funding of abortion on demand, we
cannot support this Vote. Thank you.
Mr M H HOOSEN: Chairperson, although the ID will be supporting this
budget, we have to express the concern that this department has been
chronically underfunded over the last 10 years. Unless we can
address the budgetary allocations and increases thereof, we do not
believe that we will address the fight against HIV/Aids, the poorly
serviced public health sector and the ridiculously low salaries that
some of our public health care doctors are receiving. I thank you.
07 JULY 2009
Page 66 of 164
Mr M B GOQWANA: Chairperson, I just want you to take note of my
observation. I have never seen some of the members who were speaking
here in the portfolio committee meetings. These members were
supposed to be part of the Portfolio Committee on Health. Yet, they
come here and tell us that they don’t know this and that. Some of
these things could have been answered in the portfolio committee.
That’s why they probably do not know anything about them.
The second statement we need to make is that, without sounding
silly, I think we need a workshop about primary health care for some
people so that they can understand what it means and, as such, will
ask questions properly when we come to this meeting. [Applause.]
One of the reasons why more than 11 million people went to vote for
the ANC was purely because of our promises - what we promised them
we were going to do. There is no doubt about it that we are going to
do what we promised we were going to do. One of the things we made
promises on was the issue of inequities in this country that make
the whole country unhealthy. We promised that we were going to
correct these inequities. I have given an example that even those
who can afford health services because they are rich, must remember
that if somebody is not well, this is still going to affect them
even if they are rich. That is why I gave the example that if my
heart is normal, I cannot rejoice and think that it is healthy if my
kidneys are not healthy. This is because if my kidneys are not
07 JULY 2009
Page 67 of 164
healthy ... [Interjections.] I am not talking about mine but about
those of all of us.
If your kidneys are not healthy, they are going to cause you to have
high blood pressure. This high blood pressure is going to put a
strain on your heart. When you have a strain on your heart, you are
going to have cardiac failure or your heart might actually stop. So,
do not think that because you are well-to-do now, you are not going
to be affected by what’s happening. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]
[Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 226: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Ainslie, A R; Baloyi, M R; BamMugwanya, V; Bhengu, P; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T
J; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V;
Carrim, Y I; Chabane, O C; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F
I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Davies, R H;
De Lange, J H; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C;
Dlulane, B N; Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I;
Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L;
Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N;
Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B;
Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F;
07 JULY 2009
Page 68 of 164
Hanekom, D A; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Hoosen, M H; Jacobus, L;
Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D;
Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M;
Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line,
H; Lishivha, T E; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X;
Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Madasa, Z L; Madikizela-Mandela, N W;
Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R;
Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makasi, X C;
Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H;
Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z
M D; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N;
Martins, B A D; Masango, F T-T; Mashatile, P; Mashigo, R J;
Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P
M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M;
Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mbili, M E; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mdakane, M R;
Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhize, L N;
Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnisi, N A;
Mocumi, P A; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss,
L N; Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motshekga, M A; Mthethwa, E M;
Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A
F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T; Nel, A C;
Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo,
E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D
G; Njikelana, S J; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli,
B M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E;
Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M;
07 JULY 2009
Page 69 of 164
Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; PilusaMosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T;
Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Rantsolase, M A; Rasool, E; Saal, G;
Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J;
Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N
N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Smith, V
G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A;
Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G;
Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L;
Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M;
Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Williams, A J;
Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E.
NOES - 106: Adams, L H; Balindlela, Z B; Blaai, B C; Boinamo, G G;
Bosman, L L; Botha, T; Buthelezi, M G; Carter, D; Cebekhulu, R N;
Coetzee, T W; Dandala, H M; Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F;
Dexter, P D; Dhlamini, B W; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit, N D;
Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Fritz,
A T; Gcume, N P; George, D T; George, M E; Groenewald, P J; James, W
G; Kalyan, S V; Kganare, D A; Kilian, J D; Kloppers-Lourens, J C;
Kohler-Barnard, D; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kopane, S P; Kotsi, C M P;
Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore,
A T; Mac Kenzie, G P D; Madisha, W M; Makhuba, H N; Marais, S J F;
Masango, S J; Mashiane, L M; Maynier, D J; Mda, A; Meshoe, K R J;
Michael, N W A; Mnguni, P B; Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; Molao, S K;
More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T;
07 JULY 2009
Page 70 of 164
Msweli, H S; Mubu, K S; Mulder, C P; Ndlovu, V B; Ngonyama, L S;
Nhanha, M A A; Njobe, M A; Ntshiqela, P; Ollis, I M; Poho, P D;
Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Schmidt, H C; Schmidt,
J; Selfe, J; Shilowa, M S; Shinn, M R; Singh, N; Skosana, M B;
Smiles, D C; Smith, P F; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steele, M H; Steyn,
A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F;
Tolo, L J; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van Den Berg, N J; Van der
Linde, J J; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S
M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi,
K M.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 15 – Labour – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, firstly, it is important that the
Department of Labour should deal with labour brokers because we have
a problem with them. Secondly, the department should look at the
Setas because there is a lot of money being spent on them and they
seem not to be carrying out the function they are supposed to be
carrying out. I am referring to the Setas that belong to the
department. The Minister must not point at somebody else. I am
talking to the Minister directly through you, Chair.
07 JULY 2009
Page 71 of 164
Lastly, the department must deal with stakeholders, trade unions and
other people who deal with the Department of Labour. It must ensure
that they adhere to the financial management of the department and
know what the department wants. Directors and everybody must adhere
to the Public Finance Management Act so that this matter can be
dealt with once and for all. Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Before I call on the next
party, I just want to make corrections on the Vote we did on Health.
We have 226 for the ayes and not 266. The noes still remain the same
– 106; and there are no abstentions. That is the correction I wanted
to make because the information that came from the Table had 266 for
the ayes. So, we have just corrected that now on the records.
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Chair, on a point of order: Can I just address
you on one issue? The hon member there referred to the hon Ndlovu as
“wena weNdlovu”. That is a serious address reserved for the King.
It’s a serious matter. It should not be used like that. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order! Hon member, you are
correct. We did not hear that. However, if it was expressed and
shouted, you are right in terms of the correct form of address. I
think the members will take note thereof. Thank you very much.
Mr K B MANAMELA: Chairperson, I just want to check if we are using
the same system of counting that was used during Idols, because the
07 JULY 2009
Page 72 of 164
votes seem not to be tallying and we later get proper results.
[Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order! We will look into that
and come back to you. I know you want to put us on the spot now.
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, on a point of order: We actually agree
with the hon member. We are convinced that the noes had far more
votes than just 107 and, therefore, we agree with his point!
[Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Order! After the IFP has
expressed its declaration of vote on Labour, is there any other
party wishing to make any declaration of vote? I do not see any.
There is the ANC.
Mrs L E YENGENI: Mr Chairperson, the ANC manifesto talks of the
creation of decent jobs for all. We believe that the strategic
objectives of this budget will assist and contribute to the creation
of those decent jobs.
The manifesto also talks about the prohibition of labour brokers. We
believe that this budget will not only look at abolishing labour
brokers, but will also assist in defining the employer, the employee
and the workplace with the intention of rescuing millions of workers
07 JULY 2009
Page 73 of 164
who are exploited by unknown employers. The ANC supports this
budget. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 16 - Social Development – put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms N P GCUME: Chair, hon Minister and Deputy Minister, in the Budget
debate, Cope raised some concerns. We are happy that the hon
Minister did respond to most of them. Cope supports the budget.
We appeal to the hon Minister to consider our concerns during the
implementation of programmes. We have the following concerns,
amongst other things: information dissemination; monitoring and
evaluation; national development agencies; project funding to
benefit more projects; and staffing. Having highlighted the
concerns, we emphasise the following: no nepotism, fraud and
corruption; and bursaries for the needy, poor and vulnerable.
The investigation unit should continue with their task. Thank you.
[Applause.]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, the fact that this substantially increased
budget is positioned to improve social assistance and welfare
07 JULY 2009
Page 74 of 164
services is encouraging for the ACDP. We also welcome the allocation
for social work bursaries.
The ACDP is relieved that the child support grant for 15-year-olds
will take effect this year and extend to 18-year-olds. The present
lack of child support for 15 to 18-year-olds has resulted in
children, in significant numbers, resorting to prostitution, which
they see as their only hope of survival. This is tragic. The ACDP
appeals to the Minister to urgently deliver on these extended
grants.
While the increased budget for welfare services to improve
protection for vulnerable groups looks promising, there are serious
problems in provinces where budget allocation is totally inadequate
for the implementation of the Children’s Act, especially in the
Eastern Cape, KwaZulu-Natal and Limpopo. Not even 50% of what is
required has been allocated. This will cost us dearly in the long
run as we are failing children in the most disturbing circumstances.
The steep decline in the number of people who have applied to adopt
children and to offer themselves as foster parents is a growing
concern, especially as child abandonment and neglect has increased.
The ACDP appeals to the department to prioritise more effective
efforts to encourage a culture of adoption.
07 JULY 2009
Page 75 of 164
The ACDP recognises the enormous challenges. We will, however,
support this Vote. To invest in our future, we must invest in our
children. Thank you.
Mrs Y R BOTHA: Chairperson, the ANC is satisfied that resources
provided will ensure that the Department of Social Development and
its entities will perform with regard to their service delivery
mandate. Social assistance grants are government’s biggest poverty
alleviation programme. It is actually worrying that the hon Gcume
from Cope is commenting on fraud because she has disclosed to us in
the committee that she is receiving a child support grant.
Therefore, the ANC calls on her to cancel this grant if she is
receiving it for her children or for children living with her since
she is a public representative. If she is receiving it for children
who are not living with her, that’s fine. People who live in glass
houses should not throw stones! The ANC supports Vote No 16.
[Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 17 - Sport and Recreation South Africa – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, Boxing SA is in a state of meltdown and has
been for some time. The portfolio committee agrees with me that
07 JULY 2009
Page 76 of 164
Boxing SA, its board and its general administration are a disgrace
and have been for years. To understand the extent of the problem I
invite all members to visit Boxing SA’s website. It consists of
nothing more than a banner which reads, and I quote: “Suspended due
to nonpayment”.
The Department of Sport and Recreation is not a model of excellence
either. It also received a qualified Auditor-General report this
year. It is for the above-mentioned reasons that the DA will oppose
the department’s Budget Vote, and to pre-empt the hon Koos van der
Merwe, we will also call for a division. Chairperson, I thank you.
Mr B W DHLAMINI: Thank you, hon Chairperson. While the IFP supports
the Budget Vote on Sport and Recreation SA, I want to take this
opportunity to ask the Minister in The Presidency - National
Planning Commission and the Minister of Finance, in their presence,
to ensure that in their planning they put aside money for Sport and
Recreation and to take it away from the Mineworkers Investment
Company. This is because for the last two years, when it was part of
that, we were able to build more than 200 basic facilities. When it
was made part of the MIC, we could not even account for one
facility. I therefore take this opportunity to make sure that they
put more money into Sport and Recreation to ensure that Sport and
Recreation builds the basic facilities on its own. Thank you very
much.
07 JULY 2009
Page 77 of 164
Mr B M KOMPHELA: Chairperson, the ANC said that the 2010 investment
must be well looked after. We are talking about the department that
has been given that mandate and the department that is executing the
mandate, without doubt, very well. I say this in the presence of
Donald Lee. [Interjections.]
It is not the DA, but the ANC that has put forward very profound
suggestions to the department on how to deal with the issues of
Boxing SA. It is not the DA because the DA cannot think
strategically and put forward suggestions to the Minister.
[Interjections.]
We are talking about a department that Mr Lee knows has had many
inputs and that there were some issues that the Auditor-General
raised. Today he can confirm that there are only a few of those,
because together with him we have worked so that these disclaimers
by the Auditor-General do not come back. We are saying to the DA:
Please, the ANC supports this budget; join this department for the
spectacular 2010 so that you can celebrate and see that it has
delivered. Thank you. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided.
07 JULY 2009
Page 78 of 164
AYES - 257: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Adams, L H; Ainslie, A R;
Balindlela, Z B; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu,
P; Bhoola, R B; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J;
Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, T; Botha, Y R; Burgess,
C V; Buthelezi, M G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chikunga, L S;
Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C;
Dambuza, B N; Dandala, H M; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B
W; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlulane, B N;
Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim,E I ;
Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L;
Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcume, N P; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P;
George, M E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L;
Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B;
Hajaig, F; Hanekom, D A; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jacobus, L;
Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D;
Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D;
Komphela, B M; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kotsi, C M
P; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E;
Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R;
Mabuza, M C; Mac Kenzie, G P D; Madasa, Z L; Madikizela-Mandela, N
W; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N;
Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N;
Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H;
Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Mandela, Z M D;
Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N;
Martins, B A D; Masango, F T-T; Mashatile, P; Mashiane, L M;
07 JULY 2009
Page 79 of 164
Mashigo, R J; Mashishi, A C; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P
M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M;
Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mbili, M E; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mda, A;
Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mjobo, L
N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhize, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni,
A; Mmusi, S G; Mncwango, M A; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A;
Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N;
Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S;
Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa,
E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F;
Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabeni, S T; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, WJ;
Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele,
N J; Ngonyama, L S; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhanha, M A;
Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E;
November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntshiqela, P; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C;
Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Oosthuizen, G C;
Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P;
Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Radebe, B A;
Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramodibe, D M; Rantsolase, M A; Rasool, E;
Saal, G; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G
J; Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Shilowa, M S; Sibanyoni,
J B; Sibhida, N N; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P
S; Skosana, J J; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Snell, G T;
Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Suka, L;
Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E;
Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K;
07 JULY 2009
Page 80 of 164
Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B;
Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van
Schalkwyk, M C J; Vukuza, N Y; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xasa, T;
Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M.
NOES - 67: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Carter, D; Coetzee, T W;
Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit,
N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Fritz, A T;
George, D T; Groenewald, P J; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kganare, D A;
Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G
R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T;
Madisha, W M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Michael, N
W A; Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; Molao, S K; More, E; Morgan, G R;
Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Mulder, C P; Ndude, H N; Ollis, I M;
Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Schmidt, H C; Schmidt,
J; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn,
A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Tolo, L J; Trollip, R A
P; Van Dalen, P; Van Den Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der
Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M;
Wenger, M.
ABSTAIN - 1: Poho, P.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 18 – Correctional Services – put.
07 JULY 2009
Page 81 of 164
Declarations of vote:
Mr J SELFE: Madam Chairperson, the Department of Correctional
Services has had a poor record over the past couple of years. The
department has failed to deal with corruption in its ranks. It
allowed high-profile inmates such as Ananias Mathe and Jean-Claude
Lacote to escape from custody. It has had a series of qualified
audits.
This year it renewed a catering contract with Bosasa, despite the
fact that it was not the lowest bidder and while the previous
contract is still being investigated by the Special Investigating
Unit. It has not built the new-generation prisons first announced in
2002, and it gave medical parole to Schabir Shaik, when it was clear
he did not qualify for it, and then refused to review the decision.
We were prepared to give the Minister the benefit of the doubt, as
most of these decisions and policy failures were those of her
predecessor, but she said at a press conference, and I quote:
I am now Minister Ngconde. I own the decisions he has taken, and
if it means taking responsibility for these matters, I will.
To make matters worse, her department took out a series of fullpage, full-colour advertisements in the weekend papers at vast cost,
07 JULY 2009
Page 82 of 164
completely unnecessarily, to publicise her budget speech. This was
at the same time as the hon the Minister of Finance told government
departments to cut out wasteful expenditure and when we won’t pay
doctors a decent salary. For these reasons, we will not be
supporting this Vote. [Applause.]
Ms B C BLAAI: Hon Speaker, Cope raised a number of issues that were
of concern to us. We are happy that the Minister has responded to
some of the issues and acknowledged the challenges raised by Cope.
We therefore would like to take this opportunity to express our
support for the budget. We hope that the Minister will address the
following: the lack of accountability by the department to the
parliamentary portfolio committee; the noncompliance with rules and
regulations relating to procurement procedures; and the review of
section 79 of the Correctional Services Act, Act 111 of 1998. The
Minister will receive full support from Cope and we hope that the
Minister will be able to turn the department around. Enkosi kakhulu.
[Thank you very much.][Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP clearly understands that as
there is an increased focus on fighting crime, with additional
resources for police, detectives, prosecutors and courts,
Correctional Services will be on the receiving end of this process
as more offenders are arrested and prosecuted. Clearly, therefore,
additional staff and resources must be given.
07 JULY 2009
Page 83 of 164
We have seen the result of underresourcing particularly when it
comes to overcrowding. Prisons are 42% overcrowded. Overcrowding is
the root cause of health problems and the spread of diseases such as
tuberculosis, HIV and Aids, besides contributing to gangster-related
activities.
We, as the ACDP, are also very concerned about the high level of
reoffending, estimated to be 94%. The department is clearly then not
succeeding in its offender-rehabilitation programme. The ACDP was
one of the first to recommend that prisoners be put to work to
assist with rehabilitation by learning skills. This issue requires
further attention.
Lastly, the ACDP supports a full review of the medical parole policy
in view of the Schabir Shaik controversy. However, the ACDP will
support this Budget Vote. Thank you.
Mr V G SMITH: Chairperson, we think it would be useful if political
parties stood up here and told us what it is that they will do in
the future, as opposed to highlighting the shortcomings of the past.
[Interjections.]
The Auditor-General’s report, as an example, has consistently
improved over the years. Whilst there has been a disclaimer, there
07 JULY 2009
Page 84 of 164
has been improvement and I think we should give credit where credit
is due.
As the ANC, we have a responsibility to provide leadership to
society and maybe others should also provide leadership. In that
regard, this budget, we believe, assists in calling on communities
and families to be more receptive to ex-offenders. [Interjections.]
We think that this budget assists in calling on business to afford
more work opportunities to offenders. We think that this budget
calls on all South Africans to stop the stigmatisation and
marginalisation of those who have found themselves in conflict with
the law. [Interjections.]
Maybe you should listen to us before you speak. You have no
contributions to make in the committee; you have no contributions to
make here other than to make jokes. This is a serious matter that we
are dealing with here, and Cope has never been a serious party.
[Laughter.] [Applause.]
Our end objective as public representatives, including Cope, must be
to build a united, democratic, nonracial and prosperous nation. That
must be our objective. It is within this context that the ANC
supports Budget Vote No 18. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
07 JULY 2009
Page 85 of 164
Vote No 19 - Defence and Military Veterans, formerly Defence – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr D J MAYNIER: Chairperson, the Minister of Defence and Military
Veterans, Lindiwe Sisulu, made the welcome announcement during the
Budget Vote debate last week that it was incumbent on all of us to
work towards ensuring that we shift from an ideology of the past to
a democratic ideology. That, we must all agree, is a step in the
right direction. It is unfortunate that the Minister appears to have
ignored her own advice and seems to be going in the wrong direction:
from a democratic ideology to an ideology of the past.
Chairperson, the central question before us in deciding whether to
support or oppose the Budget Vote was this: What effect will the
R32billion appropriated for Defence have on the combat readiness of
the defence force? The short answer to that question is this: We do
not know, because the Department of Defence and Military Veterans
will not tell us or, perhaps more accurately, the Department of
Defence and Military Veterans will tell us, but only on condition
that we do not tell you.
We were told that the Department of Defence and Military Veterans
would not provide a briefing on the state of combat readiness of the
defence force, because the Minister had not been briefed. Then we
07 JULY 2009
Page 86 of 164
were told that the Department of Defence and Military Veterans will
not provide a full and open briefing, because it would compromise
national security. Now it emerges that last year the media were
briefed on the state of combat readiness of the SAAF and the SA
Navy. Parliament cannot be briefed, but the press can be briefed.
Chairperson, we do not know all the details, but we know the Defence
Force is in deep trouble. We have soldiers without vehicles; we have
ships without sailors; we have planes without pilots; and we have
military hospitals without doctors. The result is that we have
soldiers in the barracks, not in the field; we have ships alongside,
not at sea; and we have aircraft in hangars, not in the air. We have
an army that is overstretched, a navy that is understretched, and an
air force with nothing to stretch! [Laughter.]
What does this all mean, Chair? We are expected to support a
R32billion appropriation, but we are not allowed to know to what
effect that money is spent, and we will not do so. The DA therefore
opposes the budget on defence and military veterans, which is Vote
No 19, for the 2009-10 financial year. [Time expired.]
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, we, as the ACDP, share concerns relating
to the lack of information on the combat readiness. However, we do
want to point out that the department’s budget has been
significantly increased since last year. In the past, we always
expressed our concerns about lack of resources, and we do support
07 JULY 2009
Page 87 of 164
the fact that the budget has been significantly increased. Financial
constraints remain, however, as the department seeks to fulfil its
statutory obligations, particularly regarding peacekeeping
functions.
We also support the Minister’s announcement that the SANDF will be
deployed to patrol our borders. It was clearly a mistake to give
SAPS this task; their task is to fight crime, not secure our border.
We also wish to pay tribute to all our men and women in uniform who
are serving in peacekeeping operations on the continent. The ACDP
will support the Budget Vote, notwithstanding the reservations we
expressed. Thank you.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, ek het reeds in my toespraak gesê
dat hierdie Parlement moet besluit: wil ons ’n weermag hê of wil ons
nie ’n weermag hê nie?
Ek wil vandag vir u sê dat vir die afgelope drie jaar, as ons ’n
voorlegging kry oor die gevegsgereedheid van die SA Nasionale
Weermag, sien ons dat daar ernstige probleme is, en die grootste
oorsaak van daardie probleem is die gebrek aan fondse. Die VF Plus
sal hierdie Begrotingspos vandag steun, want ons het juis te min
geld.
Voorsitter, in hierdie Parlement het al die politieke partye
saamgestem dat ons die nuwe wapens aankoop. Meer as R40 miljard van
07 JULY 2009
Page 88 of 164
die belastingbetaler is aangewend vir gesofistikeerde wapentuig. Ek
dink die Parlement is dit verskuldig aan die belastingbetalers dat
ons daardie wapentuig behoorlik aanwend. Ons het tans nie eens
genoeg fondse om ons vlieëniers genoeg te laat vlieg nie. Dis hoekom
hulle weggaan. Ons het nie eens behoorlike fondse om ons ander
duikbote operasioneel te kry nie. Daar is basies nie een wat eens
volledig operasioneel is nie.
Ons moet ook wegdoen met regstellende aksie. Ons moet ons beste
mense vir die poste kry. Die Minister het uitdagings. Ek weet sy is
bevoeg om dit te kan hanteer, maar ons sê gee vir die Weermag geld,
want as ons sê ons wil hulle behou, moet ons hulle finansier.
Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, I’ve already said in my speech that
this Parliament must decide: do we want to have a defence force or
don’t we?
I can tell you today that for the past three years, whenever we have
received a submission on the combat readiness of the SA National
Defence Force, we have noted that there are serious problems, and
the cause of these problems is the lack of funds. The FF Plus will
be supporting this budget today, because we have too little money.
Chairperson, all the political parties in this Parliament agreed to
the purchasing of the new weapons. More than R40 billion from the
07 JULY 2009
Page 89 of 164
taxpayers was utilised for sophisticated weaponry. I think
Parliament owes it to the taxpayers to utilise this weaponry
properly. Presently we do not even have enough money to let our
pilots fly. That is why they are leaving. We do not even have the
proper funding to get our other submarines operational. Basically
not one of them is even fully operational.
We should also do away with affirmative action. We should get the
best people for the posts. The Minister is facing challenges. I know
that she is capable of dealing with them, but we are saying give the
defence force money, because if we are saying that we want to keep
them, then we must finance them. Thank you.]
Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. Cha, ngifuna ukuveza izinto
ezimbili ezimqoka.
Eyokuqala,izibhedlela lapho amasosha elashwa khona azizinhle neze.
Okwesibili, izimoto abazisebenzisayo azivumelani nempilo yazo ukuthi
zikwazi ukuqhubeka ngakho-ke izimpahla nezinto abazisebenzisayo
njengamasosha alapha eNingizimu Afrika akufuneki zibukelwe phansi.
Ngakho–ke kufuneka ngaso sonke isikhathi ahlonishwe emsebenzini
awenzayo.
Okokugcina, yilaba ababekwe emazweni angaphandle. Kufuneka ngaso
sonke isikhathi sibabhekelele ezimalini abazikhokhelwayo nangedlela
abaphila ngayo ngaphandle ngoba impilo yangaphandle ayifani
07 JULY 2009
Page 90 of 164
neyasekhaya. Ngiyathokoza kakhulu. (Translation of isiZulu
declaration of vote follows.)
[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Chairperson. I just want to highlight two
important issues.
The first one is that the hospitals where soldiers are treated are
not in good condition. Secondly, the vehicles they use are also not
roadworthy; therefore, the implements and the tools that the South
African soldiers use should not be looked down upon. It is therefore
appropriate that the work that they do should always be respected.
The last issue is with regard to those who are deployed in foreign
countries. We should always consider the way they are remunerated
and their living conditions in those countries because those
conditions are not the same as the ones at home. Thank you very
much.]
Mr M S BOOI: Madam Chair, I think it is important that we continue
to understand what it means to vote and come back and say that we
have won the majority of the vote. If you do not understand
democratic practices, it does show in the manner that you have
interpreted what the Minister presented to you last week.
The Minister has been quite vocal and has allowed us and, as
Parliament, we have allowed you to express your own point of view
07 JULY 2009
Page 91 of 164
and have given you the opportunity to pinpoint where the weaknesses
are. In general, all intellectuals will tell you that democracy is
not a superb system, but there is a difficulty for you to understand
that when she allows you to engage and get information.
You have today been part of a committee where I gave all Members of
Parliament the opportunity to reflect on the matter, and the
majority of our own members have voted against you and have clearly
expressed to you that they cannot allow the national security of the
country to be compromised. [Interjections.] That is quite clear;
that is the majority of members that have voted for the ANC. Now,
what do you expect us to do? Do you expect us to subvert democracy
and allow you, on your individual point, to be the only one to be
allowed to express your point of view, and then we accept it?
The majority has said in the committee that we need to accept the
fact that there is secrecy in the military, and if you understand
what it means to have secrecy in the military, you will definitely
be able to agree. Luckily, you are a veteran. You do come from one
of the submarines. You understand the state of things and that there
is secrecy in the military, and I thought I have told you in the
portfolio committee that it does not say that the Minister is going
back. It says that democracy has been practised.
We have given you an opportunity to express your own points of view,
but the majority of our own members in the committee do not agree
07 JULY 2009
Page 92 of 164
with you, because they are also concerned about the security of the
country, not with your individual right. They have never undermined
or compromised you; they have given you your constitutional right.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote 20 - Independent Complaints Directorate – put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, the ICD was established to
investigate complaints of brutality, criminality, and misconduct
against members of the SAPS. Now the SAPS has a very poor track
record on anticorruption initiatives, managed from within. In
addition, the SAPS closed down the successful anticorruption unit in
2002, on the grounds of lack of accountability and transformation.
Now this closure created a void that the ICD has not been able to
fill due to deliberately maintained resource and staffing
constraints.
Now that the ANC has shut down the Scorpions, the only unit left
that could investigate police corruption would be the ICD. The
provincial heads of the ICD have stated that every one of them is
currently investigating reports of torture by members of the SAPS as
07 JULY 2009
Page 93 of 164
well as deaths at the hands of the police and figures have shown a
significant increase in these deaths for the second year in a row.
Yet, when the ICD investigates, 42% of its recommendations are not
acted upon by the SAPS. In fact, the SAPS has no legislative
compulsion to act on ICD recommendations at all. According to a
briefing by the ICD the number of complaints received against the
SAPS has increased to 6 119. Deaths in police custody, or as a
result of police action, have also increased up 912 in the last
year. For the last three years prior to August 2008, R90 million was
spent on the salaries of suspended SAPS members. This, in turn, has
implications for the public credibility of the SAPS which should, at
all times, be beyond reproach, and says much about the attitude of
the SAPS towards corruption and maladministration.
This House has a moral obligation to strengthen the ICD, which has,
since its inception, been deliberately kept underresourced. The
Minister claimed on television recently that he was strengthening
the unit, but the truth is that R3 million was then summarily
subtracted from their already inadequate budget. They are told to
expand but they have no money to do that. We have two separate Votes
but nothing for the ICD. What is being done to this unit is a
disgrace and we will not vote for this totally inadequate budget.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, dit is eintlik ontstellend as ’n
mens vandag in die media moet lees van hoeveel lede van die publiek
07 JULY 2009
Page 94 of 164
verkeerdelik gehanteer word deur lede van die polisiediens. Die
enigste plek werklik waarna die publiek kan gaan is die Onafhanklike
Klagte Direktoraat, OKD, om ’n klag te gaan lê teen lede van die
polisie.
Wat verder ontstellend is is dat as ons gaan kyk na die statistiek
die afgelope vier jaar dan is daar ’n 72% toename van kriminele
klagtes teen lede van die polisie. Dit behoort al die rooi ligte te
laat aankom.
Die derde mees ontstellende aspek is dat die OKD reguit sê dat hulle
nie die mannekrag of finansies het om hierdie sake behoorlik te
ondersoek nie. As ons gaan kyk na die sake dan sien ons hulle
ondersoek maar ongeveer 50% of 51%. Daar is elke keer ’n klomp sake
van die vorige jaar wat oorgedra word; hulle kan net nie die stryd
wen nie.
Die VF Plus sal hierdie begroting steun vir die OKD, want hulle het
die geld nodig, maar ons wil ’n beroep doen dat daar indringend
gekyk word dat daar meer geld gegee word sodat die publiek ook ’n
beter instrument het waar hulle hul klagtes teen polisielede kan
gaan lê. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans declaration of vote
follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, actually it is very
disconcerting if one has to read in the media today about how many
07 JULY 2009
Page 95 of 164
members of the public are mishandled by members of the police
service. The Independent Complaints Directorate, the ICD, seems to
be the only resort for the public if they wish to lodge a complaint
against members of the police.
Even more disconcerting is that if we were to look at statistics of
the past four years, we would see that there has been an increase of
72% with regard to criminal charges laid against members of the
police. This fact already serves as a danger sign.
The third most disconcerting aspect is that the ICD claims that they
do not have the manpower or finances to investigate these issues
properly. If we were to look at the cases, we would see that they
only investigate 50% or 51% of the cases. Every year cases from the
previous year are carried over; they simply cannot keep up.
The FF Plus will support this budget for the ICD, as they need the
money; but we want to urge that it is important that more money is
given, to ensure that the public can have a better instrument by way
of which they can lodge their complaints against members of the
police service. Thank you.]
Mr V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga Sihlalo, okokuqala ngifuna ukuthi
kumhlonishwa, kusemqoka ukuthi sibheke umthetho ophethe i-ICD. I-ICD
iwenza wonke umsebenzi wayo ... [Thank you, Chairperson. Firstly, I
07 JULY 2009
Page 96 of 164
would like to say to the hon member that it is imperative to look at
the law that governs the ICD. The ICD does all its duties ...]
... which is the core function ...
... yokuphenya amaphoyisa, ukuthi abantu bafa kanjani ezitokisini
nalapho la bebheke khona. Kodwa okubi okusuke kwenzeke ukuthi
bawenza wonke umsebenzi emva kwalokho bese benza i-referal kwelinye
iphoyisa elisesikhundleni esithe xaxa kunalelo ekade liphenya. Bese
kuthi ekugcineni lowo owenze kabi engabe esashushiswa. Yinto embi
leyo ngoba izigebengu zibaleka nejoka zibe zingafanele ukubaleka
nalo. Okwesibili ... [Kwaphela isikhathi.] Awu! [Uhleko.]
(Translation of isiZulu declaration of vote follows.)
[... of investigating police officers, how people die in custody as
well as where they are taken to. The problem is that they do all the
work and make a referral to a police officer who is more senior than
the one who has been conducting the investigation. In the end, the
culprit is not prosecuted. This is very bad because the prisoners
escape after being caught, which is not supposed to happen. Secondly
... Eish! [Time expired.] [Laughter.]]
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: Chairperson, the ANC has committed itself to
intensifying the fight against crime and corruption. This applies
equally to any member of the SAPS or municipal police service, who
engages in any act of crime, corruption, or any other act which is
07 JULY 2009
Page 97 of 164
contrary to the required police or municipal police behaviour or
conduct.
As the ANC, we believe that the role of the ICD forms an integral
part in the intensification of the fight against crime and
corruption. While, as the ANC, we believe that this budget will
assist in this, there are two particular areas which we would like
to raise.
The first is that the required number of personnel need to be
appointed which will enable the ICD to operate more effectively and
efficiently.
Secondly, legislative amendments need to be considered which will
ensure that the recommendations of the ICD are implemented by the SA
police.
The ANC will work with the Minister and support the Minister in the
steps he takes to ensure that the ICD is provided with the necessary
tools to carry out its mandate.
The DA has indicated that it will not support this Budget Vote. I
think that the message that the DA is sending out very loudly and
clearly to the citizens of South Africa is that they actually do not
care whether we have a police force where corruption and crime are
rooted out. [Interjections.]
07 JULY 2009
Page 98 of 164
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order, please!
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: That is the message they are sending out. It is
the message they send out time and time again. It is for this very
reason ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon member, your time has
expired.
Mr G D SCHNEEMANN: The ANC will support the Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 255: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Adams, L H; Ainslie, A R;
Balindlela, Z B; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu,
P; Bhoola, R B; Bikani, F C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J;
Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, T; Botha, Y R; Burgess,
C V; Carrim, Y I; Carter, D; Cebekhulu, R N; Chikunga, L S;
Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C;
Dambuza, B N; Dandala, H M; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B
W; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlulane, B N;
Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I;
Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L;
07 JULY 2009
Page 99 of 164
Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; Gigaba, K M N;
Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B;
Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F;
Hanekom, D A; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H;
Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kganare, D A;
Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Komphela, B
M; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kotsi, C M P; Kubayi,
M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luthuli, A
N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C;
Madasa, Z L; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T;
Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G ; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L;
Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S;
Malale, M I; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K
B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T
A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masango, F T-T; Mashatile,
P; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M;
Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi,
M N; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W;
Mbili, M E; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mda, A; Mdaka, N M; Mdakane, M R;
Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Meshoe, K R J; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H
B; Mkhize, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S
G; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Molebatsi, M A; MoloiMoropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P;
Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T;
Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Mulder, C
P; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G;
07 JULY 2009
Page 100 of 164
Ndabeni, S T; Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M;
Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J;
Ngonyama , L S; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S
J; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, B
M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyama, M M A; Nyanda, S;
Nyekemba, E; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pandor, G N M;
Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; PilusaMosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T;
Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Rantsolase, M A; Rasool, E; Saal, G;
Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale-Diswai, M J; Selau, G J;
Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N
N; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J;
Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M;
Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A; Suka, L; Sulliman, E M;
Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Swart, S N; Thabethe, E; Thobejane, S G;
Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J;
Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der
Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van Schalkwyk, M C J; Williams, A J;
Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M.
NOES - 66: Blaai, B C; Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Coetzee, T W;
Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit,
N D; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Fritz, A T;
George, D T; George, M E; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kloppers-Lourens,
J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee,
T D; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Mac Kenzie, G P D; Madisha,
07 JULY 2009
Page 101 of 164
W M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Michael, N W A;
Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Msweli,
H S; Mubu, K S; Ndude, H N; Ollis, I M; Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P
J; Rabotapi, M W; Schmidt, H C; Schmidt, J; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R;
Smiles, D C; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M;
Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van Der
Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S
M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.
ABSTAIN - 6: Gcume, N P; Molao, S K; Nhanha, M A; Ntshiqela, P D;
Poho, P; Vukuza-Linda, N Y.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 21 – Justice and Constitutional Development - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, the ACDP welcomes the amount of R3billion
allocated for the restructuring of the criminal justice services
over the medium term. These funds provide for, inter alia, the
expanding of the criminal DNA database, accelerating the roll-out of
national fingerprint and case management systems and upgrading IT
systems.
07 JULY 2009
Page 102 of 164
We are just awaiting the consideration of the Forensics Bill, and we
are pleased that that Bill will be revived later this afternoon. To
ensure justice for vulnerable groups such as women and children is
crucial. This can be done by implementing the Child Justice Act, Act
75 of 2008, improving services such as maintenance, utilising the
Guardian’s Fund and provisions of the Domestic Violence Act and
Sexual Offences Act, as well as providing assistance for victims of
crime.
We must also ensure a reduction in the number of sexual offences,
particularly those committed against our children. The ACDP,
therefore, welcomes the establishment of the National Register for
Sex Offenders that comes into effect this month.
As far as the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, is concerned, we
noted yesterday’s announcement regarding the Hawks that will replace
the Scorpions. Whilst the ACDP opposes the disbanding of the
Scorpions, we are pleased that the majority of the Scorpions
investigators accepted positions in the new directorate, thus
retaining much-needed skills.
Whilst we wish the new unit every success in its fight against
organised crime, it will lack the ingredient that led to the
successful conviction rate of the Scorpions, namely prosecutiondriven investigations. Nevertheless, the ACDP will support this
Budget Vote. I thank you.
07 JULY 2009
Page 103 of 164
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, the IFP supports this Budget Vote
but has many concerns. Today I will raise only two. Firstly, the hon
former Deputy Minister of Justice had the courage, some months ago,
to admit that the criminal justice system is dysfunctional. We are
concerned that not enough is being done to repair the criminal
justice system.
Secondly, we are, in particular, concerned about the image of the
High Courts. We have a Judge President who is in litigation with the
judges of the Constitutional Court. That is very very damaging to
the image of the justice system in South Africa.
I have read in the newspaper this weekend - I do not know if it is
true, but it is being speculated - that a particular Judge President
has indicated that he will take R20 million and leave. I do not know
if it is true, but I think that the President of the country and the
Minister should intervene to stop that problem. It is very damaging
to the image of South Africa.
Finally, the hon Mr Surty was the Minister of Justice for a few
months and he was very energetic and passionate, so much so that we
gave him the nickname “Kookwater”, meaning boiling water. We wish
him well in his new position and thank him for what he has done in a
few months. Thank you.
07 JULY 2009
Page 104 of 164
Mr N A RAMATLHODI: Chairperson, the Freedom Charter proclaims that
all shall be equal before the law. The ANC, therefore, supports this
budget, pursuant to that clarion call as adopted by our forefathers
in 1955. I want to emphasise that all of us working together, in
particular those within the judiciary, should ensure that
transformation indeed does take place so that all can be equal
before the law.
We are particularly worried about gender-based decisions that allow
criminals and rapists to be released back into society in order to
perpetrate further crimes against women and children. There have
been several decisions in recent days within our courts which are
cause for serious concern.
I am sure we would all agree that we need to pray for those who make
decisions that allow rapists to continue to repeat their acts
against victims. I’m sure we would also agree that we need, again
working together, to reclaim victims’ rights so that those who have
been abused and violated in our societies are given the necessary
support. The ANC supports this budget. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 22 – Police, formerly Safety and Security - put.
Declarations of vote:
07 JULY 2009
Page 105 of 164
Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, supported in this budget is a
Ministry that produces crime statistics that are at best 18 months
old and at worst fabricated. We do not know how many people are
murdered each day, robbed each day and raped each day.
Despite this budget, civilians spend R40 billion a year on private
security. Despite this budget, there were over 6 000 complaints
against members of the SAPS this past year. Out of this budget, a
good portion of R90 million has been spent on suspended SAPS members
and R2 million for Jackie Selebi.
There are police stations that are in a pitiful state of disrepair,
and we know there are SAPS members with virtually no equipment at
all. Poor training, poor equipment provision, poor police stations
and the enormously expensive and totally discredited 10111 call
centres are also provided for by this R46 billion budget. An amount
of R6 million has been spent in Gauteng alone, and the AuditorGeneral says 79% of the calls are abandoned. It pays for a damning
R7,5 million and 400-page report that revealed the truth about the
dysfunctionality of the police’s legal services division. This is
the same division that racked up R46 million in legal fees - twice
the amount paid out in settlements.
The firearm legislation is an extremely expensive failure. The
Police Ministry faces a Constitutional Court challenge while its own
members lost 2 500 weapons last year. Despite this budget, there is
07 JULY 2009
Page 106 of 164
only an 11% chance of conviction if a criminal murders someone. The
forensic science laboratory has backlogs running into tens of
thousands of samples.
We have SAPS members unable to write dockets correctly, 5 200 SAPS
members without driving licences and over 2 500 lost dockets. An
extraordinary amount of the budget money was also paid out to
civilians who were abused by the police. Our land borders are
undercapacitated by 71%, and this budget cuts the border budget by
3,23%.
Finally comes the news that the second largest increase goes to
protection services for the so-called VIPs. Under no circumstances
will the DA support this budget.
Mr M E GEORGE: Madam Chairperson, Acting President, Ministers,
Deputy Ministers and Members of Parliament, Cope raised the issue of
the underfunding of the detective section and crime intelligence,
and the state of the forensic science laboratory which is on the
verge of chaos at the moment.
We must say that we are happy with the commitment made by the
Minister during the debate. But Cope calls on the Minister to
address these issues urgently if we are to bring down the levels of
crime in this country. Cope will then support the budget. I thank
you.
07 JULY 2009
Page 107 of 164
Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, firstly, the victim facilities within
police stations are not equipped to look after rape victims and
women who come to report cases at police stations. Secondly, we are
saying that the police have been shot at and they have also been
shooting. Therefore, they have to look at section 49 of the Criminal
Procedure Act. We are glad that the Minister has talked about it to
ensure that the police are protected.
Lastly, it must be ensured that there is equipment in the police
service so that they can do their job properly and functionally. The
national commissioner must be appointed as soon as possible. Thank
you.
Rev K R J MESHOE: We in the ACDP had planned to support Budget Vote
No 22 until we heard about the shocking reports of police corruption
and the manipulation of statistics to make it look as if they were
winning the war on crime. Of even greater concern are reports that
about 50 rape cases at four police stations in the Western Cape were
never investigated. This is very serious and should not be condoned
by all those who are opposed to sexual violence and the abuse of
women and children.
In Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal, the ICD - we are told - is
investigating six police stations that, among other things, are
accused of purposefully failing to fill in dockets correctly and
07 JULY 2009
Page 108 of 164
reducing serious crimes to lesser charges. This is corruption of the
worst order. We expect the Minister to leave no stone unturned until
all those who are perpetuating these heinous crimes are flushed from
the system.
The ACDP will not be supporting this Vote until such shocking
corruption in the SAPS is eradicated. We need integrity in the
police department so that they can win the trust and confidence of
members of the public. Thank you.
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, in the budget speech last year, I
said that the biggest threat to the security of a country is when
the Minister of Police is in a state of denial about this matter of
crime. I must say to the hon Minister that his predecessor actually
even told me that I must stop complaining about crime or I must
leave the country. It is quite interesting - I told him that I would
not leave the country - I am still in Parliament, but I do not see
him in Parliament anymore. So, maybe there is a lesson to be learned
from this. [Laughter.]
I must say that the present Minister is making the right noises and
sounds as far as crime is concerned.
Ek wil sê dat dit is wat die mense wil hoor. Ons in die VF Plus wil
vir die agb Minister sê dat ons hom sal ondersteun in hierdie
begrotingsdebat en hierdie begroting. Ons gaan kyk of hy dit wat hy
07 JULY 2009
Page 109 of 164
sê hy gaan doen, in die praktyk deurvoer. Dit was ’n fout om
byvoorbeeld die Skerpioene te vervang met die Valke. Dit was ’n
politieke besluit. Ek wil vandag vir u sê: As u sukses wil behaal,
moet u nie politieke besluite neem nie, u moet meriete besluite
neem. Dan gaan daar vordering wees om misdaad behoorlik in SuidAfrika te bekamp. Dan sal u sukses hê en dan sal die lewe in SuidAfrika vir almal beter word. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraph follows.)
[I want to say that that is what people want to hear. We in the FF
Plus want to say to the hon Minister that we will support him in
this budget debate and this budget. We want to see whether he will
do in practice what he uttered in theory. For instance, it was a
mistake to replace the Scorpions with the Hawks. It was a political
decision. I want to say to you today: If you want to be successful,
do not make political decisions; rather make decisions based on
merit. Then there will be progress with regard to the successful
combating of crime in South Africa. Then you will be successful and
then life in South Africa will improve for everyone. I thank you.]
Ms A DLODLO: Chairperson, Acting President, as the ANC, we support
this Budget Vote. We believe that it talks to the priority issues as
raised by the Department of Police’s strategic plan, the 2009 ANC
manifesto and the President’s state of the nation address. The fight
against crime remains a key priority, hence the department receives
the highest percentage budget increase within the justice, crime
07 JULY 2009
Page 110 of 164
prevention and security, JCPS, cluster. This clearly indicates the
commitment of the ANC to fighting and combating crime.
The budget promotes the following: community participation in the
fight against crime; the use of technological measures such as DNA
collection at crime scenes; the revamping of the criminal justice
system; capacitating the newly established Directorate for Priority
Crime Investigation units, whose focus is on combating organised
crime and corruption; the strengthening of crime intelligence, whose
budget is increased and indicates the proactive and preventative
approach that the department is embarking on; and the strengthening
of measures to fight crime against children and women. Above all,
the department continues to receive a clean audit opinion, which is
appreciated. The department is committed to improving matters raised
by the Auditor-General.
Some amongst us here were socialised over a long period of time just
to criticise the ANC, and we respect that. We, as the ANC, will
focus on bringing a better life to all the people of South Africa.
Together we will work towards achieving a crime-free South Africa.
Once more, the ANC supports this Budget Vote. I thank you.
[Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided.
07 JULY 2009
Page 111 of 164
AYES - 263: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Adams, L H; Ainslie, A R; Baloyi,
M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bikani, F
C; Blaai, B C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Borman,
G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, T; Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Buthelezi, M
G; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chikunga, L S; Chiloane, T D;
Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N;
Dandala, H M; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N;
Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlulane, B N; Dubazana, Z S; Dube,
M C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I; Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman,
M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcume, N P;
Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P; George, M E; Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N;
Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F; Goqwana, M B; Greyling, L W;
Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B; Hajaig, F;
Hanekom, D A; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H;
Joemat-Pettersson, T M; Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E;
Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E; Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Komphela, B
M; Koornhof, N J J v R; Kota-Fredericks, Z A; Kotsi, C M P; Kubayi,
M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luthuli, A
N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J; Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Mac
Kenzie, G P D; Madasa, Z L; Madikizela-Mandela, N W; Madlala, N M;
Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N;
Magwanishe, G; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N;
Makhubela-Mashele, L S; Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H;
Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z
M D; Manganye, J; Mangena, M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N;
Martins, B A D; Masango, F T-T; Mashatile, P; Mashiane, L M;
07 JULY 2009
Page 112 of 164
Mashigo, R J; Mashishi, A C; Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D
H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matladi, M N; Matlanyane, H F;
Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M; Mavunda, D W; Mbili, M E; Mc Gluwa, J J;
Mda, A; Mdaka, N M; Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P;
Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H B; Mkhize, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M;
Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S G; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A;
Molebatsi, M A; Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N;
Motimele, M S; Motlanthe, K P; Motshekga, M A; Motshekga, M S;
Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T; Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa,
E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T A; Mulder, C P; Mushwana, F F;
Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G; Ndabeni, S T;
Ndlovu, V B; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W
S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngonyama, L S; Ngwenya,
W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhanha, M A A; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana,
S J; Njobe, M A; Nkwinti, G E; Nonkonyana, M; November, N T;
Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C; Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E;
Nyama, M M A; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R
L; Pandor, G N M; Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P; Phaahla, M J;
Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe, B A; Radebe, G
S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M; Rantsolase, M A;
Rasool, E; Saal, G; Schneemann, G D; Sefularo, M; Segale-Diswai, M
J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Shilowa, M
S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S C
N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V G;
Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A;
Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Thabethe, E;
07 JULY 2009
Page 113 of 164
Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tsebe, S R; Tseke, G K;
Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R; Turok, B;
Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van
Schalkwyk, M C J; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xasa, T; Yengeni, L E;
Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M.
NOES - 68: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Carter, D; Coetzee, T W;
Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit,
N D; Dudley, C; Duncan, P C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M;
Fritz, A T; George, D T; James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kganare, D A;
Kloppers-Lourens, J C; Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G
R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D; Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T;
Madisha, W M; Marais, S J F; Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Meshoe, K R
J; Michael, N W A; Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa, S; Molao, S K; More, E;
Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ntshiqela, P; Pretorius, P J C;
Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Schmidt, H C; Schmidt, J; Selfe, J;
Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Smuts, M; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A
C; Swart, M; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Terblanche, J F; Trollip, R A
P; Van Dalen, P; Van Den Berg, N J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der
Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk , S M; Van Schalkwyk, H C; Vukuza-Linda, N
Y; Waters, M; Wenger, M.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 23 - Agriculture – put.
07 JULY 2009
Page 114 of 164
Declarations of vote:
Dr L L BOSMAN: Madam Chair, hon members of the House, the DA will
support this Vote, but we would like to note the following issues.
On the reshuffling of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and
Fisheries, I would like to point out that the previous Department of
Agriculture and Land Affairs was divided into two separate
departments, and, with the addition of Forestry and Fisheries to the
Department of Agriculture, a whole new dispensation was created with
no clear indication of how resources and personnel would be
allocated.
Noting that, the new Minister’s attitude to taking charge of the
challenges with regard to securing food self-sufficiency and rural
development needs time before it can be judged.
The DA believes that the department needs to develop and facilitate
the implementation of appropriate policies and targeted programmes,
aimed at promoting equitable access to the agricultural sector and
to promote shared growth and commercial viability of emerging
farmers.
Furthermore, government must have a clear regulatory framework based
on the free-market system to regulate and announce investment in the
sector. We also note that the performance and delivery of the
previous Minister was poor, and, if we had to judge her department’s
07 JULY 2009
Page 115 of 164
performance the DA would have seriously considered opposing the
vote.
As a result of the previous Minister’s confrontational stance to
commercial agriculture, we have seen a huge disinvestment and
decline in employment, as well as an exodus of producers from this
important sector. The DA seriously urges government to improve its
appraisal of the sector, giving attention to a more balanced focus
on economic viability of the sector versus implementing its
transformation strategy. Sufficient resources need to be allocated
to this important sector to achieve its objectives, to improve food
production, job creation and rural development. I thank you.
[Applause.]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, agriculture plays a central role in rural
development and, with increasing numbers of people benefiting from
land redistribution, support initiatives are critical. Targets in
supporting emerging farmers proved unrealistic in 2008-09, as just
under half of the 80 000 targeted were actually supported. Despite
the encouraging things you have said, hon Minister, with a 10% drop
in the budget, allocations for post-settlement support will need
more than ever to be used effectively and efficiently.
The drastically increased budget for consultancies and professional
services raises some concerns. However, the ACDP acknowledges that
07 JULY 2009
Page 116 of 164
farmers are going to need professional assistance to ensure
sustainability.
With the present economic downturn the ACDP is particularly
concerned that agricultural starter packs for household vegetable
gardens must not be cut back as rising food prices threaten food
security.
Job creation - another national priority - underlines the importance
of not undervaluing the role of agriculture in our economy. The
number of jobs per unit of investment is higher in agriculture than
in any other sector, and supports 8,5 million people.
Despite promises made in the Maputo Declaration in 2003 to increase
the allocation in the national Budget for agriculture to 10% within
five years, agriculture comprises less than 1% of our national
Budget. Globally, there is a lack of disaster preparedness and
experts say that South Africa is no more prepared than other
nations.
The ACDP will support this budget, although it does appear
inadequate to meet the huge demands on the Department of
Agriculture. I thank you.
Mr M JOHNSON: Chairperson, on the first point, what has become very
clear in talking to this budget is that the mid-term budget review
07 JULY 2009
Page 117 of 164
will certainly address some of the concerns raised by the hon member
Dr Bosman.
On the second point, he talks about a country that must allow a
free-market economy, as if it has worked anywhere. South Africa
continues to be that mixed economy.
At the Congress of the People in 1955 ... [Interjections.] ... the
people declared that the land shall be shared by those who work it.
That was at the Congress of the People.
In pursuance of this objective as adopted by the department, the ANC
reiterates its support for this Budget Vote, for we believe that
such a budget must be about food for all, and the doubling of the
agricultural sector’s 10% share of formal employment.
As a result, the ANC and its alliance partners will continue their
campaign against the escalation of food prices, and shall hold those
responsible for conniving accountable. The comprehensive
agricultural support programmes must be enhanced to deliver food and
jobs as a result.
Finally, South Africa must deliver on its commitment in the Maputo
Declaration of contributing 10% of its GDP towards research and
development in agriculture. For those wishing to divide us, please
be assured that we are united. I thank you. [Applause.]
07 JULY 2009
Page 118 of 164
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 24 – Communications – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr N J VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, as I said in my first speech in
Parliament, Budget Vote No 24 is a comedy of errors. The Department
of Communications is wasting money. Nearly R100 million is wasted on
policy development. They change the policies about six times a week.
The department is supposed to give direction in the communications
world and to the government on how to communicate with the people of
South Africa. It cannot fulfil that basic requirement. It is also
wasting nearly R100 million on consultants and cannot even manage to
assist the beleaguered SABC.
In the internal audit committee there were problems with the
internal audit plan. In 2005, the internal audit committee was
described as ineffective by the Auditor-General. The internal audit
report for 2008-09 will only be available towards the end of 2009,
which raises questions about the effectiveness of this internal
audit committee.
A further alarming factor is the possible delay in the switching
from analogue over to digital terrestrial television, DTT. The
07 JULY 2009
Page 119 of 164
digital switch timeframe is from November last year until November
2011. Now Icasa has already indicated that it will engage with the
communications Minister with the view to extending this timeframe.
If the department allows this it would be putting a heavy financial
burden on the TV stations because they will be forced to broadcast
for a longer period in analogue and DTT.
This migration to DTT is extremely expensive for the broadcaster,
but their revenues stay the same. When the SABC has nearly
R900million debt, what is the DoC going to do? Where will the money
come from? Will the taxpayer once again be expected to foot the
bill? Under these circumstances, the DA will find it impossible to
support the Department of Communications’ Budget Vote No 24. I thank
you. [Applause.]
Mrs J D KILIAN: Hon Speaker, Cope supports Vote No 24 but is
concerned that a number of serious deficiencies in the
administration of the department were exposed during the budget
process, not least being that key positions were not and will still
not in this financial year be filled. Some of these departmental
shortcomings reflected in critical financial management
deficiencies, also in key, state-owned entities that report to the
department, resulting in the squandering of public money.
Deficit budgets were tabled by the SABC and the Society and Network
for Technology in Education through Collaboration, Santec; and the
07 JULY 2009
Page 120 of 164
Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, Icasa,
announced over the past weekend that they would not meet the
deadline for digital migration.
The financial constraints mentioned by these entities will severely
inhibit their ability to fulfil their mandate effectively unless the
finance Minister bails them out.
Cope believes that the department has unfortunately allowed the ANC
in the portfolio committee to dictate to the department how they
should execute their legislative obligations. The management in the
department and in the state-owned entities have fallen prey to the
political infighting in the ruling alliance, which unfortunately had
a negative impact on the public broadcaster and Icasa.
The time has come for the Minister to ensure that the serious
financial irregularities and deficiencies at the SABC are properly
investigated and that those found guilty are appropriately punished.
Similarly, the Minister should assist Icasa to restore public trust
in the board after their unacceptable political fling with Cosatu in
an attempt to derail the Vodacom listing. Cope will insist on the
implementation of the PFMA to keep management of the department and
of state-owned entities accountable to Parliament. Thank you.
[Applause.]
07 JULY 2009
Page 121 of 164
Mr K M ZONDI: Speaker, the IFP will support this Vote, but would
like to raise two issues which are of concern to us. Firstly, we
want to raise our concern with regard to the relationship that this
department has had with the SABC, and especially with the dissolved
board. It emerged during the inquiry which the portfolio committee
held into the affairs of the SABC board that the relationship
between the board and the corporation was somewhat strained and less
than normal.
The board complained that it received less than full support from
the department, which is the sole shareholder of the SABC. On the
other hand, the department complained that the previous board failed
to conform to their directives. We urge the department to correct
this situation so that the interim board and the new permanent board
will be able to operate with the maximum support possible from the
department.
The second issue relates to what appears to have been the urban bias
and focus of the department in the past. Our major gripe has to do
with the failure to actively see to it that information and
communication technology services are extended equitably to reach
all citizens of this country, especially those who live in rural
areas of our land. The people of the rural areas also deserve firstclass ICT services.
07 JULY 2009
Page 122 of 164
It is for this reason that we welcomed the Minister’s undertaking
during the Budget Vote to steer the department towards correcting
this situation and we want to say to the hon Minister that he has
our full support in the endeavour to make the rural citizens of this
country also first-class citizens. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S N SWART: Hon Speaker, the ACDP believes that the regulatory
debacle of the listing of Vodacom was stupid, to say the least.
Whilst we accept the apologies of Chairman Mashile, Icasa conducted
itself in an appalling manner totally unbecoming of an independent
regulator. Apologies and contrition are clearly not enough.
Had the urgent application to stop the R88 billion listing
succeeded, it would have done incalculable damage to South Africa as
a destination for investors. The repatriation of the R20,6 billion
invested would also have had dire consequences for our volatile
currency.
The ACDP encourages the portfolio committee to continue its
investigation into who succumbed to political pressure at Icasa.
Those responsible must be held accountable at the very least for the
estimated R5 million fruitless and wasteful expenditures on legal
costs. The ACDP will, however, support this Budget Vote. Thank you.
[Applause.]
07 JULY 2009
Page 123 of 164
Mr S E KHOLWANE: Hon Speaker, the ANC’s commitment to freedom is
well known and entrenched. Our commitment to freedom of expression
in society, including the media, is located within the context of
the Constitution of the Republic. These rights need to be weighed
against other constitutional rights, such as the right to human
dignity and privacy.
We believe that communication plays a major role in deepening our
democracy, promoting a culture of human rights and as a key pillar
in the transformation of our country, the public broadcaster
included.
Progress has been made in transforming the media and challenging the
legacy of apartheid in the media discourse. But a lot still has to
be done. However, we must continue to emphasise that in this
industry transformation is still lacking.
We acknowledge and support the efforts between the Department of
Communications and the National Treasury on the ongoing discussion
to recapitalise the SABC and also to fund Santec with regard to
digital migration. We further support the continuous engagement to
make sure that the broadband wireless network, which is supposed to
be rolled out in the countryside of the country, is being supported.
However, I thought that in the spirit of communication and so on,
maybe Cope would share with us why their second deputy president has
07 JULY 2009
Page 124 of 164
resigned. But we, however, believe that this budget will go a long
way in motivating for these noble inputs. Thank you. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 258: Abram, S; Adams, P E; Adams, L H; Ainslie, A R;
Balindlela, Z B; Baloyi, M R; Bam-Mugwanya, V; Bapela, K O; Bhengu,
P; Bhoola, R B; Bikani, F C; Blaai, B C; Bogopane-Zulu, H I;
Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Borman, G M; Boshigo, D F; Botha, T;
Botha, Y R; Burgess, C V; Carrim, Y I; Cebekhulu, R N; Chikunga, L
S; Chiloane, T D; Chohan, F I; Coleman, E M; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S
C; Dambuza, B N; Dandala, H M; Davies, R H; Dexter, P D; Dhlamini, B
W; Diale, L N; Dikgacwi, M M; Dlamini-Zuma, N C; Dlulane, B N;
Dubazana, Z S; Dube, M C; Dudley, C; Dunjwa, M L; Ebrahim, E I;
Farisani, T S; Fihla, N B; Fransman, M L; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L;
Gasebonwe, T M A; Gcume, N P; Gcwabaza, N E; Gelderblom, J P;
Gigaba, K M N; Gina, N; Godongwana, E; Gololo, C L; Gona, M F;
Goqwana, M B; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Gungubele, M; Gxowa, N B;
Hajaig, F; Hogan, B A; Jeffery, J H; Joemat-Pettersson, T M;
Johnson, M; Kekana, C D; Kenye, T E; Khoarai, L P; Kholwane, S E;
Khunou, N P; Kilian, J D; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, N J J v R; KotaFredericks, Z A; Kotsi, C M P; Kubayi, M T; Landers, L T; Lekgetho,
G; Line, H; Lishivha, T E; Luthuli, A N; Luyenge, Z; Maake, J J;
Mabasa, X; Mabedla, N R; Mabuza, M C; Mac Kenzie, G P D; Madasa, Z
07 JULY 2009
Page 125 of 164
L; Madikizela-Mandela, N W; Madlala, N M; Mafolo, M V; Magagula, V
V; Magama, H T; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G; MahlanguNkabinde, G L; Makasi, X C; Makhuba, H N; Makhubela-Mashele, L S;
Makhubele, Z S; Malale, M I; Malgas, H H; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, J
M; Manamela, K B; Manana, M C; Mandela, Z M D; Manganye, J; Mangena,
M S; Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Martins, B A D; Masango, F TT; Mashatile, P; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashishi, A C;
Masutha, T M; Mataboge, D K; Mathebe, D H; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela,
N F; Matladi, M N; Matlanyane, H F; Matshoba, J M; Maunye, M M;
Mavunda, D W; Mbili, M E; Mc Gluwa, J J; Mda, A; Mdaka, N M;
Mdakane, M R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mjobo, L N; Mkhize, H
B; Mkhize, L N; Mkhulusi, N N P; Mlambo, E M; Mlangeni, A; Mmusi, S
G; Mnguni, P B; Mnisi, N A; Mocumi, P A; Molao, S K; Molebatsi, M A;
Moloi-Moropa, J C; Morutoa, M R; Moss, L N; Motimele, M S;
Motlanthe, K P; Motshekga, M A; Mpontshane, A M; Msimang, C T;
Msweli, H S; Mthethwa, E M; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mufamadi, T
A; Mushwana, F F; Muthambi, A F; Nchabeleng, M E; Ndabandaba, L B G;
Ndabeni, S T; Ndlovu, V B; Ndude, H N; Nel, A C; Nelson, W J; Nene,
N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J;
Ngonyama, L S; Ngwenya, W; Ngwenya-Mabila, P C; Nhanha, M A;
Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkwinti, G E;
Nonkonyana, M; November, N T; Ntapane, S Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, Z C;
Nxesi, T W; Nyalungu, R E; Nyama, M M A; Nyanda, S; Nyekemba, E;
Oliphant, M N; Oosthuizen, G C; Peters, E D; Petersen-Maduna, P;
Phaahla, M J; Phaliso, M N; Pilusa-Mosoane, M E; Pule, D D; Radebe,
B A; Radebe, G S; Radebe, J T; Ramatlhodi, N A; Ramodibe, D M;
07 JULY 2009
Page 126 of 164
Rantsolase, M A; Rasool, E; Saal, G; Schneemann, G D; Segale-Diswai,
M J; Selau, G J; Sexwale, T M G; Shabangu, S; Shiceka, S; Shilowa, M
S; Sibanyoni, J B; Sibhida, N N ; Singh, N; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, S
C N; Sizani, P S; Skosana, J J; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smith, V
G; Snell, G T; Sogoni, E M; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Stofile, M A;
Suka, L; Sulliman, E M; Sunduza, T B; Surty, M E; Swart, S N;
Thabethe, E ; Thobejane, S G; Tinto, B; Tlake, M F; Tsebe, S R;
Tseke, G K; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Tsotetsi, D R;
Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Merwe, S C; Van
Schalkwyk, M C J; Vukuza-Linda, N Y; Williams, A J; Xaba, P P; Xasa,
T; Yengeni, L E; Zikalala, C N Z; Zondi, K M.
NOES - 65: Boinamo, G G; Bosman, L L; Carter, D; Coetzee, T W;
Davidson, I O; De Freitas, M S F; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Du Toit,
N D; Duncan, P C; Farrow, S B; Figlan, A M; Fritz, A T; George, D T;
James, W G; Kalyan, S V; Kganare, D A; Kloppers-Lourens, J C;
Kohler-Barnard, D; Kopane, S P; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Lee, T D;
Lotriet, A; Louw, A; Lovemore, A T; Madisha, W M; Marais, S J F;
Masango, S J; Maynier, D J; Michael, N W A; Mnqasela, M; Mokgalapa,
S; More, E; Morgan, G R; Motau, S C; Mubu, K S; Ntshiqela, P; Poho,
P D; Pretorius, P J C; Rabie, P J; Rabotapi, M W; Schafer, D A;
Schmidt, H C; Schmidt, J; Selfe, J; Shinn, M R; Smiles, D C; Smuts,
M; Spies, W D; Steele, M H; Steyn, A; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe,
M M; Terblanche, J F; Trollip, R A P; Van Dalen, P; Van Den Berg, N
J; Van der Linde, J J; Van der Westhuizen, A P; Van Dyk, S M; Van
Schalkwyk, H C; Waters, M; Wenger, M.
07 JULY 2009
Page 127 of 164
ABSTAIN - 1: Buthelezi, M G.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 25 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism – put and agreed to.
Vote No 26 – Human Settlements, formerly Housing – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mrs C DUDLEY: Due to rapid urbanisation and migration from rural
areas, housing poses a great challenge, and while the ACDP
recognises the significant number of subsidised houses that have
been provided, government’s initial drive to build a million houses
in five years has tragically resulted in substandard workmanship and
poor planning.
Waiting lists for people still to be housed are also a major concern
and the ACDP is concerned that this budget does not appear to make
provision for reviewing and establishing a comprehensive and
transparent database, without which those who have waited many years
are at risk of being overlooked.
The ACDP has championed rural development to redress the problems of
migration to the cities, so we are interested in the
07 JULY 2009
Page 128 of 164
recapitalisation of the rural housing loan fund. Communication with
prospective residents will be vital for settlement success. From the
Joe Slovo challenges of the Western Cape to agrivillages for farm
workers, only through interaction can planners hope to accommodate
the actual needs and concerns of people affected.
We applaud work taking place to improve living standards and
conditions for impoverished suburban and rural communities. Hon
Minister, has an allocation been made for the upgrading and
restoration also of the inner city buildings? I’m thinking of
examples such as the old warehouse that was turned into makeshift
housing on Saratoga Avenue in a key 2010 focus area. Many buildings
like this one are homes to hundreds of families. Like their suburban
counterparts, they are also faced with erratic services that can
lead to health and safety hazards.
The ACDP hopes that the new focus on human settlements will
facilitate better responses to the many challenges. We will support
this Budget Vote. Thank you.
Ms B N DAMBUZA: UKhongolose uyaluxhasa uHlahlo-Lwabiwo mali
ngezandla ezingenamkhinkqi. [The ANC supports the budget
unreservedly.]
We strongly believe that the budget promotes comprehensive and
sustainable human settlements as per the Breaking New Ground
07 JULY 2009
Page 129 of 164
strategy requirements that have been adopted by this House, as well
as the ANC’s manifesto and the conference resolutions.
There is no doubt that the budget is expansionary. A significant
increase has been observed and the increase continues to support the
ANC’s objectives and priorities in an effort to improve the lives of
the people of this country.
The ANC is committed to the acceleration of the housing delivery
strategy, and that includes the restoration of the human dignity of
our people on which a strong emphasis has been illustrated in the
MTEF. [Interjections.]
We are convinced that the resources allocated to Vote No 26 will
enable the delivery of houses as expected in line with the
Constitution and the Freedom Charter. Issues of quality and
corruption have been with us extensively in the committee. We are
proud to indicate that progress has been made and the effort to root
out corruption in housing is commendable.
However, the committee expresses its commitment to playing its vital
role and monitoring adherence to the policy and legislation. We are
very confident about the issue of hostels, because the Minister has
committed himself to look at the Community Residential Units, CRU,
programme and if need be it will be reviewed. Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
07 JULY 2009
Page 130 of 164
Mr B W DHLAMINI: I am standing to thank the Minister for his
response and his passion in dealing with one of the legacies of
apartheid, the creation of single-sex hostels, which were created by
one of the ugliest laws - influx control.
I want to thank you, Minister, for your intervention and the
department officials have been in touch with us, and we are very
happy that you have taken this matter seriously. Thank you.
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 27 - Rural Development and Land Reform, formerly Land
Affairs – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr M M SWATHE: Thank you very much, Speaker. The DA does not support
the small and insufficient budget allocated to the Department of
Rural Development and Land Reform. The DA views this department as a
crucial vehicle to bring development to the rural areas. Millions of
people in the rural areas have been neglected for many years. They
do not have the infrastructure to provide basic services such as
running water, electricity, roads or sanitation.
In Limpopo, Mpumalanga and the Eastern Cape, rural communities were
attacked by the waterborne cholera disease because of drinking dirty
07 JULY 2009
Page 131 of 164
water from rivers and streams. The President put rural development
and land reform on a high-priority list of development.
Millions of poor people from rural areas expect parliamentarians and
public representatives to change the bad situation to better their
lives. They believe their lives will be improved as promised by the
President in his state of the nation address. Incapacity, shortage
of staff and lack of financial support will hinder rural development
and land reform.
About 4 891 rural claims under land restitution are still
outstanding. To achieve the target of 30% by 2014, 20,5 million
hectares of land still need to be redistributed. A lack of postsettlement support poses a serious threat to land reform programmes.
We cannot raise high expectations in rural communities and fail to
implement development programmes due to inadequate funding. This
budget will reduce this Ministry to a spectator, while poor and
unemployed people suffer. The DA therefore opposes Budget Vote No 27
due to an insufficient budget. Thank you. [Applause.]
Prof C T MSIMANG: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The IFP supports this
Budget Vote, in particular its prioritisation of rural development.
However, the following concern is recorded: The IFP completely
rejects individual land ownership in rural areas. It demands clarity
on the modus operandi of this process. If freehold titles are
07 JULY 2009
Page 132 of 164
granted freely, then even the poor will be accommodated, but there
will be more applicants than there are sites to go around and the
land scramble will degenerate into chaos.
On the other hand, if properties are sold, the poor will remain
landless while land titles go to the rich. I am told that even here
in Cape Town the prime land is owned by overseas investors. Even the
argument that freehold titles would enable black entrepreneurs to
raise business loans, pales in significance when we consider that
failure to repay those loans will result in further land
dispossession, leaving blacks without any recourse since all land
will then be owned by the banks.
Usually, when people’s properties are repossessed in urban areas,
they return to the communally owned land where they are given sites
by amakhosi. This is why amakhosi and their subjects fought bitter
and sanguinary wars against the colonies. They were trying to
prevent what is being planned by the government. They were trying to
preserve some land for posterity. Thank you.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Thank you, Speaker. The ACDP supports government’s
determination to continue to prioritise poverty alleviation, and in
view of the high levels of poverty which persist in rural areas, we
applaud the new focus on rural development. These efforts, we hope,
will help rural inhabitants and communities to prosper and help stem
the flow of people to cities in search of work.
07 JULY 2009
Page 133 of 164
A lack of access to land, however, is still cited as a major
contributor to rural poverty, making the remaining outstanding land
claims a definite concern. In order to meet its 30% target, the
department needs to redistribute at least 3,2 million hectares of
white-owned agricultural land every year between now and 2014. This
is clearly not possible on the budget before us.
The ACDP notes the additional budget for staff capacity and expects
the department to proactively utilise this, not only to seek out
suitably qualified personnel, but for departmental training to
develop and achieve the required levels of skills. With funds
allocated to land acquisition being persistently scaled back,
questions are being raised as to government’s intentions regarding
purchasing of land.
Both land claimants and the agricultural community require a speedy
conclusion to claims to restore confidence and regain peak
production for food security. Regrettably, the ACDP sees this budget
as inadequate to meet capacity requirements, to achieve targets in
redistributing land and for making restitution. The ACDP will not
support Budget Vote No 27 as it stands. Thank you.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Speaker, die doelwit wat die ANC-regering vir
homself gestel het is om teen 2014 30% van landbougrond in swart
boere se hande te hê. Die VF Plus sê dit is ‘n onrealistiese teiken.
07 JULY 2009
Page 134 of 164
Dit is onrealisties in die eerste plek omdat die departement nie die
mannekrag het om die proses behoorlik te bestuur nie, en daar is ook
nie geld om daardie doelwit te bereik nie. Dit is tog baie duidelik
uitgespel in die Departement van Grondsake se strategiese plan vir
2008-11. Hulle sê dit self.
Tweedens, as ons na grondhervorming in Suid-Afrika gaan kyk en jy sê
jy stel vir jouself ‘n doelwit, dan behoort jy minstens te weet
hoeveel landbougrond daar in Suid-Afrika is, hoeveel wit boere daar
is, hoeveel swart boere daar is, hoeveel kleurling of Indiër boere
daar is. Daar is nie so ‘n oudit nie, so hoe kan die ANC-regering ‘n
doelwit stel as hy nie weet watter syfers daar is nie? Alvorens daar
nie ‘n behoorlike grond-oudit gedoen is nie, sal die VF Plus nie
hierdie Begrotingspos steun nie. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans
declaration of vote follows.}
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Speaker, the ANC has set itself the target of
handing 30% of agricultural land to black farmers by 2014. The FF
Plus is saying that this is an unrealistic target. Firstly, it is
unrealistic because the department does not have the manpower to
manage the process properly and there are also no funds to reach
that target. The Department of Land Affairs made this clear in its
strategic plan for 2008-11. In fact, they themselves are
acknowledging this.
07 JULY 2009
Page 135 of 164
Secondly, when one looks at land reform in South Africa and sets a
goal then one has to at least know how much agricultural land is
available in South Africa and what the number of white, black,
coloured or Indian farmers is. Such an audit does not exist, so how
is it possible for the ANC government to set a target if these
figures are unknown to them? The FF Plus will not support this
Budget Vote unless a proper land audit is done. Thank you.]
Mr P S SIZANI: Speaker, the ANC will always adhere to the dictates
of the Freedom Charter by distributing land to the people of our
country. In that vein, the ANC has tasked the Ministry of Rural
Development and Land Reform to use the available resources within
the institutional capacity of the commission to drive restitution,
tenure reform and land distribution - our heritage - from unwilling
land holders to the landless masses of our patient and poor people,
before they turn this country into a bigger Zimbabwe.
We, the deployees of the ANC in the Rural Development and Land
Reform portfolio committee, are aware that this task will not be
easy, but we refuse to tell lies and claim easy victories. We commit
to work with farmer unions, worker unions, the landless people,
labour tenants and traditional leaders to democratise ownership,
access and use of land within the available law and resources, as
there will be no democracy in our beloved South Africa while the
vast majority of our citizens and their children stand aside and
look on while the rich, and usually absent, landlords are enjoying
07 JULY 2009
Page 136 of 164
the privilege of holding land when the rest of the population wallow
in poverty and squalor.
An HON MEMBER: That’s what Mugabe said!
Mr P S SIZANI: We share the concern of the hon Msimang of the IFP.
The budget of the department is inadequate and he knows the reason
why the budget is inadequate. We also share the concern of the hon
Groenewald of the FF Plus. He knows and understands the concerns.
However, he does not share the willingness and commitment of the ANC
to work with farmer unions who refuse to sell and part with their
land so that the poor people can have access to land. [Time
expired.] [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, African Christian Democratic
Party and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).
VOTE No 28 – Minerals and Energy – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr H C SCHMIDT: Hon Speaker, the unprecedented levels of load
shedding due to government’s failed energy policy have caused a drop
of more than 25% in mining’s contribution to GDP, which has
contributed to the negative effect on the country’s economic growth
rate.
07 JULY 2009
Page 137 of 164
Nersa’s recent approval of a 3,3% increase on top of the 27,5%
levied last year has caused many people, particularly in the
townships, to be deeply in debt as they struggle to pay their
electricity bills.
We, unbelievably, also await a further application for another
increase by Eskom of up to 54% later this year. The review of the
Mining Charter is currently being undertaken, and the perception
that the goalpost was unilaterally shifted shortly after the
elections by the department will have negative financial
consequences. Talks of nationalising the mining industry and the
revival of a state mining company are of extreme concern.
In addition, the suggestion of setting up a resources bank funded by
royalties payable by the mines is just as damning, as the funding of
such a bank with competitors’ money remains questionable.
If, as has recently been reported, a debate on the future of the
South African mining industries is indeed to take place, it should
rather discuss ways of stimulating the mining industry in order to
maintain and indeed grow the industry as well as job opportunities.
The debate should not be on whether to nationalise mines, which in
turn will cause the flight of capital and ever-increasing job
losses, as recently evidenced by the withdrawal last Friday of
07 JULY 2009
Page 138 of 164
Mitsubishi, a Canadian-registered mining company, from South African
mining projects it wanted to invest in. The DA, therefore, opposes
this budget. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr L W GREYLING: Speaker, for the last three years I have been
rising to object to the Minerals and Energy Budget Vote, largely
because of its lack of support for renewable energy technologies.
However, today I am happy to say that the ID will support the Vote,
primarily because of the fact that Nersa has finally promulgated
realistic feed-in tariffs for renewable energy producers.
The ID hopes that this is the first step towards truly mainstreaming
renewable energy in South Africa. However, having given our support,
we must caution the department against any stalling tactics by
Eskom, which for instance has held up an independent power producer
in Newcastle for two years by failing to finalise a power purchase
agreement.
Eskom simply cannot be allowed to hold the progressive objectives of
the feed-in tariff to ransom by employing such stalling actions. We
hope that the Minister will give this issue her urgent attention. I
thank you.
Mr P D DEXTER: Hon Speaker, Cope is supporting this Budget Vote.
However, we are concerned about the situation in terms of the supply
and generation of electricity.
07 JULY 2009
Page 139 of 164
The Eskom debacle which continues to rumble on means that the
limited resources put into this state-owned enterprise are being
squandered.
The result for households and enterprises is an unacceptable
situation - a continually interrupted supply of electricity, and now
soon-to-be-imposed astronomical price hikes. There is no way we can
improve the lives of our people with the current crisis being left
unattended to. The government is failing to take adequate measures
that will change this situation.
We are also concerned about the issue of illegal mining which
continues to bedevil the industry. Cope wants to see stronger
measures to curb this scourge which has negative effects, both
socially as well as for the industry. Thank you.
Mr E J LUCAS: Chairperson, the IFP supports this debate. However, we
are very seriously concerned about the illegal mining. And we hope
that the department does all in its power to find out who these
people are who have a ready market for the illegal products coming
out of the country, because unless you seek out those who are buying
the products, you will not be able to stop the illegal mining.
07 JULY 2009
Page 140 of 164
The other issue is health and safety. We think much more must be
done, and we must have more training of inspectors, then we will
have a better situation in our mines.
Mr M F GONA: Thank you, Speaker, the ANC supports the Budget Vote.
We believe that this Budget Vote will enable us to create an
environment for the rational exploration of our minerals and safe
mining and that it will provide for the creation of jobs through the
beneficiation strategy.
Also, we believe that this Budget Vote will enable us to provide
access to electricity to all South Africans. As a result, I just
want to quote for those who are confused about the debate that is
emerging in the public arena around the issue of the nationalisation
of mines.
I want to quote that in 1955, the people of this country, in
Kliptown, converged at the real Congress of the People and
proclaimed that: ‘‘The people shall share in the country’s
wealth!’’.
The question that we must be asking ourselves is: In what best way
possible could the people of this country share in the country’s
wealth if we do not begin debates that enable us to make sure that
people will benefit from the natural resources that are God-given in
this country?
07 JULY 2009
Page 141 of 164
Again, the people in this Kliptown congress proclaimed that: ‘‘The
mineral wealth beneath the soil shall be transferred to the
ownership of the people as a whole’’. [Applause.]
Today, we know that we have the Minerals and Petroleum Resources
Development Act, transferring the mineral rights to the state.
Therefore, those who are calling for nationalisation are perfectly
correct to raise that debate, because it was the wish of the people
of this country. [Time expired.][Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 29 – Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs,
formerly Provincial and Local Government – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr T BOTHA: Hon Speaker, Cope supports the budget of Co-operative
Governance and Traditional Affairs, but wishes to draw the attention
of the Minister to the following. Cope is extremely concerned about
the growing number of demonstrations throughout the country which,
we believe, are fuelled by the promises made to these people of
rapid delivery of services without properly planned-for delivery
mechanisms. The poor staffing of and weak institutions at local
government level further exacerbate the situation.
07 JULY 2009
Page 142 of 164
We further wish to caution the Minister on the proposed amendments
to Schedule 4(b) and Schedule 5(b) of the Constitution. Hon
Minister, we believe that if this is not approached with caution, it
could lead to interference at local government level. In fact, it
could erode the powers and functions of local authorities. We,
however, support your budget.
Mr P F SMITH: Speaker, the IFP will support this Budget Vote, but
let me just say that if we were dealing today with the previous
leadership of this department we would not be supporting it. I say
this simply because, in fact, its performance has been very poor
over the past few years.
Let me give you some examples. There has been a lot of strategic
planning, but very little hands-on interventions that make a
difference on the ground. There has been very little support for
municipalities from this department here and especially in the
provinces. There has been little interaction with the provinces
themselves and with the problems that provinces have.
Also, the department sometimes allows crises to happen in a manner
that is completely unacceptable. I refer you, for example, to the
Local Government: Municipal Property Rates Act which is actually a
very critical problem. It is quite inconceivable how this state of
affairs could have come to be. I must say, in this connection, that
even our current Minister cannot be absolved completely from this,
07 JULY 2009
Page 143 of 164
because although he inherited the problem, it is only now that the
interventions are being made.
What is different? Well, we have a new leadership of the department,
which is committed, which seems capable. We certainly want to give
them the benefit of the doubt. They have made promises to us. They
have made promises that they are going to be practical. They have
made promises that they are going to be hands-on, and they have made
promises that they are going to deliver.
So, on that basis, we certainly intend to engage with them and give
them our support. I must say that as the IFP it is not our function
to harp on about failures; it is our function to become partners in
solving problems. On that basis, we will support the Vote. Thank
you.
Mr S N SWART: Speaker, the ACDP welcomes the Minister’s frank
admission of the department’s shortcomings. We agree with the
Minister that it is a crying shame that after 15 years of democracy,
parts of our country - such as those he pointed out, one of which
was the Oliver Tambo District - still reflect the legacy of
apartheid and the unacceptable face of underdevelopment, poverty and
marginalisation.
It is alarming that the Minister went so far as to say that the
extent of the breakdown in trust between communities and government
07 JULY 2009
Page 144 of 164
was so grave that it was placing our democratic state at risk. We
are grateful for his frankness in making that concession.
We also trust that the shortcomings identified will be addressed by
both the department and Parliament in a more robust oversight
manner, particularly in view of the shocking state of many of our
municipalities. It is no exaggeration to say that many of our
municipalities, where service delivery is crucial, are on the verge
of collapse.
Lastly, the ACDP is concerned about the sudden resignation of the
director-general, reportedly owing to a poor working relationship
with the new Minister. If the director-general was paid out, we need
to know how much and under what circumstances, as well as whether
there is any truth to the allegation that she wanted to lay criminal
charges for irregularities in the department.
How government manages the relationship between new Ministers and
permanent government officials is key to the success of the new
administration. We cannot afford to lose experienced Public Service
managers owing to tension or a breakdown in relations, or even to
purges. The ACDP will support this Budget Vote. I thank you.
Mong C D KEKANA: Motsamaisi wa dipuisano, lebitsong la Palamente ya
batho, ANC e tshehetsa Seabo sena sa ditjhelete ka botlalo ka ntle
ho qeaqeyo. Lebitso la lefapha lena le letjha ke kgoeletso ho tswa
07 JULY 2009
Page 145 of 164
mohoong wa rona ha re ne re ya dikgethong, wa hore tshebedisanommoho
ke yona e tla tswala katamelo bophelong bo botle.
Jwale, re thabetse ha bana ba bohanyetsi ba hlalefela
tshebedisanommoho ebile ba re ba tla re tshehetsa. E mong wa bona
ebile mosebetsi ona oo a ntseng a o bala are o a etsahala ka tlasa
makgotla a metse, ke mosebetsi wa matsoho a hae. Ha a ne a
tshwanetse ho o lokisa o balehile. O ile mane moo a seng a le teng
honajwale. [Ditsheho.]
Motsamaisi wa dipuisano, seabo sena sa ditjhelete se bohlokwa haholo
hobane kgodumodumo e thefutse maemo a moruo a ditjhelete tseo re ka
beng re se re e na le tsona, jwale di se di tla haella. Empa hobane
kgomo ha enye bolokwe kaofela, ke tla kgefutsa mona ka hore re e
tshehetsa ka botlalo. [Mahofi.] (Translation of Sesotho declaration
of vote follows.)
[Mr C D KEKANA: Speaker, the ANC, on behalf of the Parliament of the
people, fully supports the budget without any hesitation. The name
of the new department is the result of what we were calling for when
we were heading towards the elections, and reflects that if we work
together we can create a better life for all.
Now we are happy that the opposition parties are being co-operative,
saying that they will support us. One of their members, who
mentioned the poor work of the local councils, is actually the
07 JULY 2009
Page 146 of 164
person who was responsible for it. He ran away when he was supposed
to make things right, and went to where he is now. [Laughter.]
Speaker, this budget is very important because the economy has been
badly affected by the recession and as a result we are going to have
a deficit. I would like to conclude by saying that we fully support
it. [Applause.]]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 30 – Public Enterprises – put.
Declarations of vote:
Dr S M VAN DYK: Speaker, die Demokratiese Alliansie het hom nog
altyd daarvoor beywer om te voorkom dat openbare ondernemings in
monopolieë ontaard wat mededinging en lae pryse voorkom, en daarom
is die DA van mening dat, wanneer hierdie openbare ondernemings nie
effektief bestuur word nie, die ANC sy beleid moet verander sodat
private produsente kan meeding met daardie openbare ondernemings.
Daarom verwelkom ons dit ook dat die
Nywerheidsontwikkelingskorporasie onlangs aan agt verskillende
private ondernemers subsidies beskikbaar gestel het om die
elektrisiteitsbedryf te betree. Ons waardeer dit ook dat Transnet
nou onlangs in die week aangekondig het dat hy 20 000km spoorlyn
beskikbaar gaan stel vir private tender.
07 JULY 2009
Page 147 of 164
Ons kan ongelukkig nie hierdie begroting van openbare ondernemings
goedkeur of steun nie, want, ten spyte daarvan dat die agb minister
Manuel verlede jaar tydens die aansuiweringsbegroting in die
Parlement gesê het dat openbare ondernemings ’n risiko vir die
belastingbetaler word, het hy in Februarie net so omgeswaai en vir
die Korrelbed Modulêre Reaktor R1,7 miljard gegee en vir SAL
R1,5 miljard.
Die Korrelbed Modulêre Reaktor het al reeds 10 jaar lank navorsing
gedoen en moet vir nog vyf jaar navorsing doen om uiteindelik teen
’n prys van R18 miljard net 160MW krag te lewer – wat ’n druppel in
die emmer is. Duitsland het reeds hierdie eksperiment van die tafel
af gevee.
Agb minister Manuel het ook R1,5 miljard vir SAL gegee om sekere
afleweringskostes van 15 Airbus vliegtuie te kanselleer wat
vroegtydig afgelewer is maar nou nie meer benodig word nie. Dit is
maar net weereens ’n teken van hoe die belastingbetaler se geld
gemors word deur sekere openbare ondernemings en dat die staat
oneffektief is om hierdie ondernemings effektief te bedryf, daarom
kan die DA nie hierdie begroting steun nie. Dankie. (Translation of
Afrikaans declaration of vote follows.)
[Dr S M Van Dyk: Speaker, the Democratic Alliance has always
endeavoured to prevent public enterprises from degenerating into
07 JULY 2009
Page 148 of 164
monopolies that hinder competition and lower prices, which is why
the DA is of the opinion that, when these public enterprises are not
being managed effectively, the ANC ought to change its policy to
allow private producers to compete with those public enterprises.
That is why we also welcome the Industrial Development Corporation
having recently made subsidies available to eight different private
ventures to enter the electricity industry. We also welcome
Transnet’s announcement earlier this week that 20 000km of railway
line will be made available for private tender.
Unfortunately we cannot agree with or support this budget for Public
Enterprises because, despite the fact that during last year’s
adjustment appropriation in Parliament the hon Minister Manuel said
that public enterprises are becoming a risk to the taxpayer, he
turned around just like that in February and gave R1,7 billion to
the pebble bed modular reactor, PBMR, and R1,5 billion to SAA.
The pebble bed modular reactor has already been conducting research
for the past 10 years and will have to do research for another five
years before it will eventually be able to deliver a mere 160MW –
just a drop in the ocean - for the price of R18 billion. Germany has
already abandoned this experiment.
Hon Minister Manuel also gave R1,5 billion to SAA in order to cancel
certain delivery charges for 15 Airbus aeroplanes that were
delivered early and are now no longer needed. This is just another
07 JULY 2009
Page 149 of 164
indication of how certain public enterprises are wasting the
taxpayer’s money and how inefficient the state is at managing these
enterprises effectively, which is why the DA cannot support this
budget. Thank you.]
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Speaker, the policy of holding unnecessary
assets is so imbedded in the department that, in spite of our full
confidence in the new Minister, the IFP will oppose the budget.
We urge the department to embark on the privatisation of
nonperforming state enterprises, as well as those that serve no
compelling public function.
The current global depression is reducing our tax revenues, while at
the same time increasing the need for social spending, with an
envisaged shortfall of R80 billion. It is envisaged that this
shortfall will be made up with taxes forced onto our people with
compounded interest in the form of increased public debt. We should
make up this shortfall by considering selling some public
enterprises.
There is no reason to continue to own, for instance, enterprises
such as SAA and SA Express. In combination, they appear ripe to be
sold, and should, preferably, not receive the requested R1,6 billion
bailout. For 10 years Denel has been a major liability to taxpayers.
This year they are approaching the Treasury for an additional
07 JULY 2009
Page 150 of 164
R1,7 billion bailout. Domestically and internationally its weapons
are not being satisfactorily sold.
In conclusion, we call upon the Department of Public Enterprises to
become the incubator of enterprises still ahead of the market, but
critical to our industrious future, such as biotechnology and
nanotechnology research and to break up Transnet, devolving port
infrastructure to the provinces and municipalities concerned, as is
done in the rest of the world. I thank you.
Mr L W GREYLING: Speaker, the ID is forced to once again vote
against the Public Enterprises Budget Vote. This is in no way to
besmirch the new Minister, but rather a protest vote against the
continued squandering of valuable taxpayers’ money on certain
nonperforming state-owned enterprises, such as the PBMR. In this new
era of constrained government spending, the ID would far rather see
this money being directed to urgent priorities, such as the
extension of the child support grant and our failing public health
care system.
The ID also maintains that the new built programme of Eskom must be
put up for review, so as to ensure that we achieve maximum social
benefit for the R1,3 trillion they intend to spend over the next 25
years. I thank you.
07 JULY 2009
Page 151 of 164
Ms M P MENTOR: Speaker, we, as the ANC, endorse the budget of the
department, because the department continues to achieve everything
that is set out for it to do. The performance of this department
demonstrates the ability to manage the budget effectively.
The department has received unqualified audits over a period of
time, and they have expanded their budget within National Treasury
norms. The programmes that this budget will support are aligned with
the National Programme of Action. Supporting this budget will ensure
that the Department of Public Enterprises is well positioned to
deliver on its mandate of enhancing the performance of state-owned
enterprises, as well as monitoring their performance in order to
improve economic and social outcomes. These outcomes must impact on
citizens, particularly, and will also impact on the economy in
general.
Lastly, the infrastructure investment programmes, which are, amongst
other things, for Transnet, Eskom and Infraco, will ensure that we
acquire the necessary competence and capability for further economic
growth, and will further ensure that we acquire a broader country
skills base. I thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Inkatha Freedom Party, Democratic Alliance and
Independent Democrats dissenting).
Vote No 31 - Science and Technology – put and agreed to.
07 JULY 2009
Page 152 of 164
Vote No 32 – Trade and Industry – put.
Declaration of vote:
Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson, firstly, we want to record the promotion
of the small, medium and micro enterprises, SMMEs, in this
department; secondly, with regard to the negotiations with small and
informal settlements, we are concerned about the high-handedness of
the ethekwini Municipality with regard to the informal settlement at
ethekwini; and thirdly, this is the department charged to create
jobs for the people who are unemployed. Therefore, it has to look at
the informal sectors and ensure that the small business is able to
grow. That is why we are supporting this Budget. Thank you.
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 33 – Transport – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr S B FARROW: Hon Speaker, the hon Minister of Transport and his
deputy have had to inherit from their predecessors an underfunded,
underskilled and understaffed department. It has approximately 300
posts with unfunded mandates on its proposed organogram, and on the
07 JULY 2009
Page 153 of 164
present organogram, a 9% vacancy rate, including a large number of
senior posts where people are in acting capacities.
In real terms, a vacancy rate of more than 40% exists if the
department realistically wants to effectively implement its
progress. The department’s budget has grown exponentially over the
past five years and has moved from three administration branches to
nine. If one breaks down the budget allocations of the department
over the last five years, it is apparent that much of their budget
is comprised of injections of funding into projects like the
Gautrain, R25 billion and still growing; the Road Accident Fund
bailout, R6 billion and it will be growing again this year; and the
2010 World Cup initiatives for public transport, road and rail
infrastructure, which amounts to over R20 billion.
Once these projects have been implemented post 2010, the department
resorts to its routine allocations of which only toll roads, Public
Transport Infrastructure and Systems, PTIS, and bus subsidies show
any increases to be at the inflation rate.
The department requested a budget of R31 billion for 2008-09 and was
only allocated R24,5 billion, yet for the last five years bus
subsidy levels have not been sufficient. The Road Accident Fund
annually runs out of money to pay its claimants. Road maintenance
and construction costs increase in line with fuel prices and a
07 JULY 2009
Page 154 of 164
current loan backlog of R126 billion exists nationally and
provincially.
Road commuter services are severely undercapitalised, the sum for
funding is inadequate, taxi recapitalisation at current funding
rates will take over 10 years to finalise, while critical challenges
exist in funding such programmes as the revitalisation of the
transport ... [Time expired.]
Mr P D POHO: Hon Speaker, Cope supports the budget. We nevertheless
wish to underscore the following concerns: that owing to the
Auditor-General’s report, the Minister should begin to deal firmly
with corruption, particularly in road construction and the Road
Accident Fund; that the department begins to live up to its own
challenge that it has just set for itself as it relates to the taxi
recapitalisation annual targets.
It is disconcerting that a lot of money is put into subsidising
Metrorail, yet there is no profound improvement of services and
safety except for the renovation of coaches. I thank you.
[Applause.]
Ms N P KHUNOU: Speaker, this is one of the Budget Votes that was
supported by all political parties during the Budget debate. There
were challenges in the department and the department has shown a
07 JULY 2009
Page 155 of 164
great improvement, especially in the concerns that we had of a high
vacancy rate, which has greatly improved.
There is also a significant improvement in all airports in all
cities and because of that we are sure that the department will
reach its target for 2010. One of the things that we were concerned
about – we want to congratulate this department on this – was the
successful launch of Administrative Adjudication of Road Traffic
Offences, AARTO, in Gauteng. Motorists are aware that if they do not
comply with road regulations they might lose their licence. The ANC
supports the Budget Vote. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 34 – Water Affairs and Forestry – put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr G R MORGAN: Mr Speaker, the DA supports the provision of water
and sanitation to more than a million households over the last five
years. The work of increasing access to water will no doubt continue
as it is dictated by the Constitution. There are, however, serious
concerns in the water management sector, all of which are known to
the Department of Water Affairs. The problem is that the budget does
not recognise the urgency of these problems.
07 JULY 2009
Page 156 of 164
While the water provision sector is made up of several role-players
including municipalities, water boards and the national department
itself, there is a lack of leadership from the national department
in seeking solutions, particularly when it comes to water quality.
Of the 145 water services authorities assessed, only 22 achieved
Blue Drop status, the highest and most appropriate measurement for
clean water.
The Blue Drop report says that with regard to many municipalities
urgent attention is required. This is unsurprising when one
considers that the vast majority of municipalities only have one or
no water engineer in their employ. Research by Dr Heidi Snyman in
2006, revealed that 30% of the country’s sewerage treatment plants
required urgent attention, while a further 66% of plants need
intervention in the short to medium term.
With regard to dams, 160 of those owned by the state do not meet
safety standards; regrettably this figure has not changed over the
last three years. Furthermore, several water boards are, according
to the Auditor-General’s recent reports, not going concerns and need
intervention from the department.
Lastly, the budget does not address the rapidly growing problem of
acid mine drainage that is polluting water sources in Gauteng and
the increasing incidence of algae toxins that are polluting bulk
water storage dams in the same province. The warning signs are
07 JULY 2009
Page 157 of 164
evident, the potential for localised water crises is high. The DA
will not support this budget. Thank you.
Mr S N SWART: Mr Speaker, the ACDP will support this Budget Vote. We
believe that there will be much turning on of the waterworks today
when the final results of today’s declarations are given! It is
interesting to note that the parties made the following declarations
- and of course, this is subject to internal audit in the ACDP: the
UDM 2, FF+ 4, ID 2, Cope 10, DA 15, ACDP 16, IFP 18 and the ANC is
the winner with 24. When the ACDP asks for extra time, please give
it more time.
Ms M M SOTYU: Chairperson, yes, we do agree that there are
challenges faced by the department, but that does not warrant us not
supporting Budget Vote No 34. The ANC believes that the realignment
of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry to Water and
Environmental Affairs will make the oversight responsibility of the
portfolio committee and the work of the department easier.
Indeed, working together with the DA, we will try our best to assist
those ailing water boards. The President, in his state of the nation
address, indicated that the ANC will never rest until every
community has access to clean water, including the rural
communities.
07 JULY 2009
Page 158 of 164
Indeed, we, the ANC will never rest as long as people in the Eastern
Cape and other provinces travel for more than 10km to fetch water.
The ANC will never rest as long as women and children in rural areas
die from malaria because of no access to clean water; and the ANC
will never rest as long as other sectors of society want to
monopolise water. The ANC supports this Budget Vote.
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).
Vote No 35 - Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries – put and agreed
to.
Vote No 36 - Basic Education – put and agreed to.
Vote No 37 - Economic Development – put and agreed to.
Vote No 38 - Energy – put and agreed to.
Vote No 39 - Environmental Affairs – put and agreed to.
Vote No 40 - Higher Education and Training – put and agreed to.
Vote No 41 - Mineral Resources – put and agreed to.
Vote No 42 - Tourism – put and agreed to.
07 JULY 2009
Page 159 of 164
Vote No 43 - Water Affairs – put and agreed to.
Vote No 44 - Women, Children and People with Disabilities – put and
agreed to.
Schedule, as amended, put and agreed to.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Bill, as amended, read a second time.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Speaker, hon Deputy
President, with leave, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1)
revives the following Bills and resumes their consideration
from the stage reached in the Third Parliament before lapsing
-
(a) Traditional Courts Bill [B15 – 2008] (National Assembly –
sec 75), and
07 JULY 2009
Page 160 of 164
(b) Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Amendment Bill [B2 –
2009] (National Assembly – sec 76(1)); and
(2)
concurs with the revival by the National Council of Provinces
of the -
(a) National House of Traditional Leaders Bill [B 56B - 2008]
(National Assembly – sec 76(1)); and
(b) Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment
Bill [B 57B – 2008] (National Assembly – sec 76(1)).
Agreed to.
The House adjourned at 18:36.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
MONDAY, 6 JULY 2009
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Finance
07 JULY 2009
(a)
Page 161 of 164
Explanatory Memorandum on the Appropriation Bill, 2009: Preliminary outline on InterDepartmental Function Shifts – 10 June 2009.
(b)
Government Notice No R.685 published in Government Gazette No 32322 dated 19 June
2009: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/644), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act,
1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(c)
Government Notice No R.686 published in Government Gazette No 32322 dated 19 June
2009: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/317), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act,
1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
National Assembly
1.
The Speaker
(a)
Updated reply from the Department of Labour, as at 31 March 2009, to recommendations
in the Nineteenth Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts on the Annual
Report and the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the
Department of Labour for the financial year ending 31 March 2007, as adopted by the
House on 21 November 2007.
Referred to the Committee on Public Accounts.
(b)
Letter from the Acting President of the Republic, dated 3 July 2009, informing the National
Assembly of the dissolution of the board of the South African Broadcasting Corporation in
07 JULY 2009
Page 162 of 164
accordance with the resolution adopted by the House on 1 July 2009, and requesting to be
furnished with -
(i) the names of the five candidates recommended for appointment to an interim board in
terms of section 15A(3)(a) of the Broadcasting Act (Act No 4 of 1999); and
(ii) the names of the candidates recommended for appointment as chairperson and deputy
chairperson of the interim board in terms of section 15A(4) of the said Act.
Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Communications for consideration.
TUESDAY, 7 JULY 2009
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
1.
Calling of Joint Sitting
CALLING OF JOINT SITTING OF PARLIAMENT
The Speaker of the National Assembly, Mr M V Sisulu, and the Chairperson of the National
Council of Provinces, Mr M J Mahlangu, in terms of Joint Rule 7 (2), have called a joint sitting
07 JULY 2009
Page 163 of 164
of the Houses of Parliament for Wednesday, 8 July 2009 at 12:00 to conduct a debate in
celebration of Mandela Day.
M V SISULU, MP
M J MAHLANGU, MP
SPEAKER OF THE
CHAIRPERSON OF THE
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
1.
The Minister of Finance
(a)
Annual Report of the Bank Supervision Department of the South African Reserve Bank for
2008.
2.
The Minister of Trade and Industry
(a)
Government Notice No 380 published in Government Gazette No 32067 dated 3 April
2009: Introduction of a compulsory specification for preservative treatment of timber, in
terms of the National Regulator for Compulsory Specification Act, 2008 (Act No 5 of
2008).
(b)
Government Notice No 559 published in Government Gazette No 32233 dated 22 May
2009: Standards matters, in terms of the Standards Act, 2008 (Act No 8 of 2008).
07 JULY 2009
(c)
Page 164 of 164
Government Notice No 560 published in Government Gazette No 32233 dated 22 May
2009: Standards matters, in terms of the Standards Act, 2008 (Act No 8 of 2008).
(d)
Government Notice No 596 published in Government Gazette No 32253 dated 29 May
2009: Application for an exemption in terms of Part A of Schedule 1: Health Professions
Council of South Africa, in terms of the Competition Act, 2008 (Act No 89 of 1998).
National Assembly
1.
The Speaker
(a)
Report of the Public Service Commission (PSC) on the State of the Public Service for 2009
[RP 49-2009].