24 June 2003
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TUESDAY, 24 JUNE 2003
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:04.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to
observe
a
moment
of
silence
for
prayers
or
meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see
col 000.
TIMES ALLOCATED FOR PARTY RESPONSES TO MINISTERS'
STATEMENTS
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam
Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the
Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed
in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:
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That, notwithstanding Rule 106, for the rest of
2003 the following times be allocated for party
responses to Ministers' statements:
African National Congress: 7 minutes; Democratic
Alliance: 5 minutes; Inkatha Freedom Party: 3
minutes; New National Party: 2 minutes, and all
other parties: 1 minute each.
Agreed to (African Christian Democratic Party
dissenting).
QUESTIONS NOT TO HAVE PRECEDENCE ON 25 JUNE 2003
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam
Speaker,
on
behalf
of
the
Chief
Whip
of
the
Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed
in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That,
29(8),
notwithstanding
Questions
shall
Wednesday, 25 June 2003.
the
not
provisions
have
of
Rule
precedence
on
24 June 2003
Page 3 of 252
Agreed to.
AD HOC COMMITTEE TO CONSIDER LEGISLATIVE PROPOSAL
REVIEWING AUDITING FUNCTION
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam
Speaker, on behalf of the Chief Whip of the
Majority Party, I move the draft resolution printed
in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:
That the House establishes an ad hoc committee in
terms of Rule 214 to consider the legislative
proposal reviewing the public auditing function
as submitted to the Speaker by the Audit
Commission (Announcements, Tablings and Committee
Reports, 2 June 2003, p 518), the committee to -
(1) consist of 19 members as follows: African
National Congress: 11; Democratic Alliance:
2; Inkatha Freedom Party: 1; New National
Party: 1; 4 members, plus alternates, from
the other parties;
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(2) be mandated to introduce a bill, in
accordance with Chapter 13 of the National
Assembly Rules, on the objects contained in
the legislative proposal;
(3) exercise those powers in Rule 138 that may
assist it in carrying out its task; and
(4) complete its task by no later than Friday, 19
September 2003.
Agreed to.
CHANGES IN SA CONTAIN MESSAGE OF HOPE
(Member's Statement)
Mr V G SMITH (ANC): Madam Speaker, The Star
newspaper on Friday, 20 June, published a letter by
Dr Rob Reid from Craighall, Johannesburg. Dr Reid
says he has recently returned home to South Africa
for a three week visit, after an absence of more
than three years. Dr Reid continues, in his letter,
to recount all his impressions of the changes that
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have taken place, which he says contain a strong
message of hope.
We agree with Dr Reid. This is what we mean when we
say the tide has turned. Dr Reid advises further
that we need to continue to intensify the fight
against criminals, and finally he notes that his
only twinge of disappointment is that we who live
here seem to be unaware of the huge improvements
occurring around us. We urge all South Africans to
also tell their positive stories like Dr Reid, and
become goodwill ambassadors of our country. Thank
you. [Applause.]
DEPLOYMENT OF SA TROOPS IN DRC
(Member's Statement)
Adv H C SCHMIDT (DP): Madam Speaker, days after the
threatened closure of 1 Military Hospital, it was
reported that SANDF troops deployed in the DRC may
not all have passed medical tests, as required by
the United Nations regulations.
24 June 2003
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The SPEAKER: Hon Ministers, I suggest you may want
to listen to this. [Interjections.]
Adv H C SCHMIDT: Thank you, Madam Speaker, it
appears as if the medical services in the SANDF are
in disarray, and this has extended to deployments
in the DRC and Burundi. Despite denials by the
Ministry, allegations continue to persist that all
three confirmed medical evacuations have in fact
been South African soldiers. United Nations
regulations forbid the deployment of HIV-positive
soldiers as part of United Nations operations.
What is more disconcerting is the fact that South
Africa is to pay the amount of approximately R600
million for the deployment of troops to the DRC.
Something must be wrong when the United Nations is
only prepared to pay R200 million to United Nations
deployment whilst the South African Government must
foot the remaining R600 million. It does not make
sense at all, and will discourage any troopcontributing nation to assist the United Nations on
a voluntary basis in rendering assistance to a
foreign country.
24 June 2003
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The Minister should indicate to Parliament the
great difference between the amount to be paid by
the United Nations in comparison to the total cost
of the deployments to be carried by the South
African taxpayer. I thank you.
NATIONAL HEALTH BILL
(Member's Statement)
Dr R RABINOWITZ (IFP): Madam Speaker, the IFP views
with great concern the requirements in the newly
published National Health Bill for certificates-ofneed licences to be issued by the director-general
for all health activities. This is a limiting and
destabilising requirement and moves health services
further away from the route of public partnerships
and incentives to improve levels of care in
Government institutions.
Our health policy is already burdened by social
engineering that is idealistic, but impractical.
The belief that a director-general can have or
acquire sufficient information to know exactly what
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is needed by which race or gender or economic group
to equalise health care countrywide, is a naive
dream. It opens the way for huge unintended
consequences, patronage and corruption.
Furthermore, the need for all health establishments
to subscribe to national norms and standards,
instead of minimum norms and standards, introduces
yet another form of centrist control. The Bill
takes us backwards, and will further compromise
accountability and efficiency in public health
services. The routes of incentives and publicprivate partnerships to narrow the gap between
public and private health services are the
preferable routes.
The IFP calls on the public to oppose this
direction before the Bill becomes law. Thank you.
HONORARY DEGREE TO FORMER GARDENER AT UCT
(Member's Statement)
24 June 2003
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Prof S S RIPINGA (ANC): Madam Speaker, former
hospital sweeper and gardener, Mr Hamilton Naki,
who worked alongside Prof Chris Barnard for many
years, was recognised with an honorary degree:
Master of Sciences in Medicine at the University of
Cape Town, on 21 June 2003. Naki also worked in the
laboratory where he learned to anaesthetise a
variety of animals. He did this work until his
retirement, while being registered as a gardener.
Despite years of paramedical work, he was awarded
only a gardener's pension. Naki's story emphasises
the need for us to deal unreservedly with the
racist legacy that continues to characterise our
society.
The ANC congratulates Hamilton Naki on receiving
this award from the University of Cape Town.
However, the ANC acknowledges that his work was not
adequately compensated by the hospital where he
worked for so many years, and this remains a
challenge. I thank you. [Applause.]
ASSASSINATING THE CHARACTER OF PREMIER M VAN
SCHALKWYK
24 June 2003
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(Member's Statement)
Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD (New NP): Madam Speaker,
from the results of the latest Markinor polling it
is clear that the DA has failed in their attempt to
assassinate the character of Premier Marthinus van
Schalkwyk of the Western Cape. In this poll,
Premier Van Schalkwyk emerged as the top candidate
for premiership of the province. The support for
Van Schakwyk has clearly indicated that the New NP
is truly representative of all South Africans.
He is the first-choice Premier for 40% of coloured
people in the Western Cape, 20% of black people and
23% of white people. This confirms that the DA has
been underestimating the intelligence of South
African voters. This also proves that the DA's
allegation that Premier Van Schalkwyk is an
illegitimate Premier is unfounded. Theuns Botha,
the DA leader in the Western Cape, is favoured as
Premier by only 6% of the coloured people, 1% of
black people and a very predictable 18% of white
people. Sadly, this also proves that the racist
24 June 2003
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message of the DA by spreading fear has been
successful in some parts of the white community.
The good news is that Van Schalkwyk is the firstchoice Premier of 28% of DA supporters. This is
bigger than the support Botha gets from his own
people as a potential Premier. The results show
clearly that Botha is an illegitimate leader in the
Western Cape. This gives an opportunity to the DA
to get rid of Mr Botha, who also called his own
leader, the hon Leon, ``politically childish''.
Maybe the hon Leon should consider himself as a
possible candidate for the leadership in the
Western Cape or fall back on the infamous Mr
Morkel. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
PERSONAL DEBTS
(Member's Statement)
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE (ACDP): Madam Speaker, the
Reserve Bank puts household debt at 51% of
household income, while over five months in the
last year more than 130 000 summonses for unpaid
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debts were issued. A recent study has found that
this is costing the economy about R500 million per
month, with 3 000 individuals facing debt judgments
each month. This problem is most evident among lowand middle-income earners, where increases in
education, medical and household costs have
outstripped the rise in salaries over the past five
years.
Almost half of those facing debt judgment find
themselves in trouble for failing to repay money
lent to them by microlenders. The cost of furniture
bought on account, municipal and other accounts are
also adding to this strain.
The ACDP calls for a limit on garnishee orders
whereby money is taken off employees' pay cheques
to settle debts. This will prevent people from
falling into a never-ending spiral of debt which
can lead to social instability and fraud.
We urge Government to offer incentives to employers
to educate staff in financial matters and expand
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free education and training facilities to offer
financial education programmes.
It is unacceptable that retail creditors ignore a
buyer's credit record. Strict credit limits must be
imposed to prevent large amounts of credit being
offered to those who do not have the means to repay
it. Lending laws must be adhered to and we must
advise that retailers offering credit must explain
fully to the buyer the implications of repayment.
CONVICTION OF CHILD RAPISTS
(Member's Statement)
Ms N B GXOWA (ANC): Madam Speaker, the increase in
the average rate of convictions of child rapists
has reportedly been confirmed by the national
prosecution office. It means that more and more
child rapists are finding themselves behind bars.
To facilitate this positive development, the ANC
believes that people who commit these hideous
crimes must be given harsher sentences.
24 June 2003
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We commend the achievements of the Departments of
Justice and of Social Development in this regard.
We call on all of our people, communities,
families, cultural and religious institutions to
protect and advance the rights of children and to
report to the police all those involved in
destroying the beautiful future of humanity, namely
our children. We say to the rapists: We love our
children, do not destroy them. [Applause.]
MOB JUSTICE AND VIGILANTISM
(Member's Statement)
Mr
J
T
received
three
MASEKA
with
days
(UDM):
dismay
four
the
people
Madam
Speaker,
news
that
died
as
in
a
we
have
the
past
result
of
vigilante actions in the Nyanga area.
At the weekend alleged train robbers were dragged
from a shebeen in Kosovo informal settlement near
Phillipi, stripped, stoned to death and then set
alight. This follows on another necklacing incident
that have plagued the lives of people in Vosloorus
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in the East Rand, and in Bram Fischerville in the
past few days.
It is cause for grave concern that these acts of
cruelty and mob justice seem to be on the increase.
Because of the failure to deal with crime, South
Africans who are largely peace-loving and
nonviolent are no longer willing to sit around idly
whilst their possessions are stolen and their loved
ones raped and murdered.
The community knew the recent necklace victims as
they were the alleged members of a gang of thieves
who terrorised commuters boarding trains in and
around the Peninsula. A radical rethink on crime
prevention is required if we are to avoid the
spectre of mob justice in our communities.
Antivigilantism campaigns will be just a futile
exercise until the Government does more to protect
its citizens. If action is not taken to avoid these
cases, people will assume that the Government does
not care and does not have the capacity to deal
with the problem.
24 June 2003
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VIGILANTE JUSTICE
(Member's Statement)
Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: In recent weeks, kangaroo court
killings took place on the east Rand and the local
newspaper did some research to find out why these
killings took place. I wish to quote from the
findings of the newspaper:
Two bodies were found next to N3 outside
Vosloorus, but as one Vosloorus resident who
would prefer to remain anonymous told The
Advertiser, the police and the South African
Justice system cannot cope with criminals. The
police just cannot do enough, the criminals are
not scared because most of the time they do not
get caught. And when they do, they do not go to
prison. They get let off, come back and rob us
again and again and again.
According to the man the vigilante justice
system, be it brutal, is the only way they can
fight criminals. We are going to burn them, he
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said, those two men were lucky because they could
not find tyres or they would have necklaced them.
He believed that mob justice is the only way to
scare criminals. We will burn them until they
stop, he insisted.
The public outcry is clear, they have lost faith in
the criminal justice system. Can the ANC reassure
South Africans that there is a solution to the
crime problem, and will they have at some stage in
the near future be able to say that they have it
under control and will reduce the crime?
LAND AND LAND DISPOSSESSION
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs R A NDZANGA (ANC): During this month of June,
we commemorate the 90th anniversary of the 1913
Land Act. We commend the Department of Agriculture
and Land Affairs on its continuing efforts, aimed
at reversing the 90 years of racial land
dispossessions. The Land Act of 19 June 1913,
together with various pieces of legislation, was
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used by racist regimes of the past to dispossess
millions of Africans of their rights to land.
The crippling impact of the past policies, among
other things the entrenchment of poverty and
underdevelopment of the dispossessed, demands that
we move at the fastest possible speed in addressing
the legacy of forced removals, landlessness and
homelessness. The development of viable rural
economic projects is part of a broader strategy to
push back the frontiers of poverty. We urge our
communities to participate in the IDPs to ensure
that rural economies benefit.
ACACIA PARK AS MICROCOSM OF SOUTH AFRICA
(Draft Resolution)
Mr C M LOWE (DA): Madam Speaker, crime is rampant
in Acacia parliamentary village just as it is
elsewhere in South Africa. The difference is that
in Acacia Park we have a 24-hour police guard and
an onsight public works management office. Security
on the gate is cursory and the response time for
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calls to help is dismal given the short distances
involved. There are reports of illegal tenants but
the occupancy audit which is finally being carried
out after months of delay is not checking the
tenants are who they claim to be. Perhaps everyone
renting a unit should be required to sign an
affidavit stating who is authorised to live in
their house; then if they sublet they can be held
to account.
The police complain that when suspects are
identified who were related to MPs, they are
pressured by the MPs to drop the cases or the
complainants withdraw the charge to protect the
perpetrators. If the police are giving in to this
pressure, it is corruption. This must be exposed
and action taken. Acacia Park is a microcosm of
South Africa: Rampant crime, inadequate policing
and political interference to ensure inaction. It
is unacceptable.
THE NEW PLASTIC BAGS AND RELATED ISSUES
(Draft Resolution)
24 June 2003
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Prof H NGUBANE (IFP): Madam Speaker, the
replacement of the old plastic bag, which was a
hazard to the environment, with the new thicker,
more environmentally friendly plastic bag was
necessary to stop the damage that was being caused
by the old bags. There are, however, concerns and
issues that were raised and need to be addressed.
Among these is the issue of the increase in
shoplifting, but potentially of far greater
consequence will be the loss of thousands of jobs
in the retail and manufacturing sectors. In order
to put a stop to this potential problem, as well as
sorting out the other issues and concerns that have
been expressed, all the relevant role-players need
to work together. We have to make a success of the
implementation of this law and iron out all the
problems that have been experienced because it will
be to our benefit in the long run.
ANC's SALUTE TO YOUNG FARMER
(Member's Statement)
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Mr P A GERBER (ANC): Madam Speaker, the dawn of our
new democracy has unfortunately not led to the end
of racism in our rainbow nation. However, the ANC
salutes brave young people such as the young
Afrikaner farmer from the small village called Tom
Burke in the Limpopo province who had the courage
of his convictions to stand up and expose the
racist deed concocted by the organisers of the
yearly Miss Marula Beauty Competition. The
organisers cancelled the beauty contest after they
discovered that two young black girls had entered
as contestants.
We salute Mr Gerard Vos also known as Ntsini in
Tswana, who, amidst great pressure from his
tightknit farmer community, risking the possibility
of being alienated, still felt so strongly about
this act of injustice and blatant racism that he
exposed it. The ANC is committed to building a
nonracial, nonsexist South Africa and calls on all
communities to emulate people such as Mr Gerard
Vos. [Applause.] Ke a leboga, Gerhard Vos [I thank
you, Gerhard Vos].
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Down with racism, down!
HON MEMBERS: Down! [Applause.]
REDEPLOYMENT OF ADDITIONAL OFFICERS
(Member's Statement)
Mr J SCHIPPERS (New NP): Speaker, in the Western
Cape, and across South Africa, we must protect our
communities, our streets, our homes and our
families from the harm of crime and violence.
Therefore, the New National Party welcomes the
announcement made by the Acting Deputy Provincial
Commissioner, Andre Pruis, with regard to the
redeployment of additional officers in the Western
Cape.
The additional police will assist the 302 officers
brought in from other provinces last week to fight
crime,
mainly
on
the
Cape
Flats.
The
additional
officers will include police from the Dog Unit with
sniffer dogs from other provinces; as well as 27
detectives who will assist with job training and
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other issues. A further eight serious and violent
crime unit detectives - four from the Eastern Cape
and four from the national head office - will also
be deployed in Khayelitsha.
Madam Speaker, the New National Party would also
like to congratulate the SAPS on the success of the
Operation Tswikila. A total of 2 212 people were
arrested in the Cape Peninsula during this
operation. Of the 2 212 arrests, 974 were involved
in serious crime such as murder, rape and armed
robbery.
I thank you. [Applause.]
HIV/AIDS IN THE SANDF
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, I just want
to put some facts to the House. First of all, just
to say to the House that 1 Military Hospital in
Pretoria is the Level 4 United Nations Hospital for
Southern Africa. This means that all members of the
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United Nations' missions deployed in the region are
evacuated to 1 Military Hospital if they require
attention. In 2002 and 2003 the position has been
that five members of the South African National
Defence Force, SANDF, were evacuated to 1 Military
Hospital - I say five in 2002 and three in 2003.
None of them, and I underline it, not one of those
eight people was an HIV/Aids case. The records are
at the 1 Military Hospital, and they can be found.
There is a particular case of one soldier, that now
makes the number nine, who was evacuated from the
Democratic Republic of Congo, the DRC, and who was
a HIV/Aids case - he was terminally ill. He was not
from South Africa, but from one of the other
countries, and I am not free to reveal the name of
the country. Now, for members of the South African
Parliament to make statements that disparage the
standing of the SANDF when we have clearly said
here that South Africa never deploys abroad any
member that is HIV positive, is really
irresponsible on our part because we become
instruments of propaganda against the SANDF.
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There is one case that is of course correct. It is
of one member, who was not mentally healthy, who
did go out of the country, and who was actually not
officially deployed. He smuggled himself into the
unit, was picked up in Burundi four days later and
was returned to the country. He left on the 11th,
was detected on the 15th and was back in the
country on that same day. That was a mental case not an extreme case, but a case nevertheless.
[Interjections.] I am just putting these issues
before the House, because anybody who has ever run
a big institution, like a prison, will know that,
even from Robben Island, there have been cases
where people smuggled themselves out. That has
happened.
Now with regard to the issue of oxygen. None of our
deployments run short of supplies. None. What we
are busy with in the eastern Congo is that we are
making a new deployment. Some of the supplies are
already there; some of the equipment is already
there and some of it is on its way. The
transportation of equipment and supplies is the
responsibility of the United Nations in order to
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save the budget of the nation. The UN commissioned
a company to move those things. They resolve to
take the equipment by sea, and then airlift it into
Bunia and Kindu. They were a day late. Some
elements in the SANDF, who are not loyal to this
Government, smuggle information out like that, and
create the impression that there is a lack of
supplies and rations. They manage to get the word
through to the opposition, and the opposition picks
up this inaccurate information, and pass it on to
the country. [Time expired.]
The SPEAKER: Hon Minister, your time for a
statement has expired.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I thought, Madam Speaker,
that there is a second matter.
The SPEAKER: No, I gave you time to make up for the
fact that you missed out.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: I will give you the budget
issue next week.
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GARNISHEE ORDERS
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL
DEVELOPMENT: Madam Speaker, thank you very much. I
am responding to the ACDP's call for a limit on
garnishee orders.
Madam Speaker, we cannot make an undertaking that
we are going to place a limit, or limits, on
garnishee orders. Garnishee orders is a very
important means of ensuring that people honour
their debt. What we can certainly undertake to do
is to conduct an investigation of the use or abuse,
or misuse, of the garnishee orders by a whole host
of people, including public servants within the
Department of Justice. We will make that
undertaking, and indeed we will conduct that
investigation, because quite a number of very
important people, including my colleague the
Minister of Finance, has brought this to our
attention. But this is all we are undertaking to
do.
24 June 2003
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LAND REDISTRIBUTION
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS:
Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am responding to the
statement made by the hon Ndzanga.
Just to say that, indeed, we are happy that our
Government has sought to redress the impact of the
1913 Land Act in the way in which it has committed
the resources to ensure that we can speedily
resolve those challenges that a majority of our
people face. It would also ensure that, at least,
those landowners who are so affected can also be
relieved of waiting for longer. It is, again, our
commitment that we will do whatever is necessary to
ensure that we are able to speedily resolve all the
outstanding claims of restitution. It would also
ensure that we continue to consider all other
matters of land redistribution and that, indeed, we
can reach an equitable and a just land dispensation
in South Africa.
24 June 2003
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To this affect, it is often said that some of the
nongovernmental organisations, such as the Surplus
People's Project, found it fit to actually question
and
challenge
the
commitment
of
Government,
particularly through the Budget for land reform that this Government has not done enough towards
reversing the legacy of our past. I want to say to
this House, the Budget, as it was tabled, and as it
has been tabled in the past, is a clear indication
of how much this Government has committed itself
towards reversing the impact of land dispossession
in the country. I thank you, Madam Speaker.
The SPEAKER: Hon members, we've had three
ministerial responses. The Minister of Defence
announced that he will deal with the budget issue
next week. I thought I should tell you that the
House will not be in session. [Laughter.] I take it
you don't want to address an empty House.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, I
understand from my colleagues that they will not be
addressing the House, and we will not use our full
quota, so I will take the remaining time.
24 June 2003
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The SPEAKER: No, you won't take the remaining time,
you're allowed your one-and-a-half minutes for the
outstanding question. So you may have the one and a
half minutes for the outstanding question.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: May I do so, Madam
Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Yes, you may.
BUDGET: DEPLOYMENT OF SANDF
(Minister's Response)
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: With regard to the issue
of the budget, again, I think, we've addressed the
issue of the budget before. We said to the House
that, as a general approach to the budget, Defence
does not budget for unforeseen expenditure. That is
for reasons which have been explained, and which
cannot be challenged. Whenever a commitment is in
place, we are then entitled to budget for it. What
has happened in the DRC in the recent period is
that ceasefire agreements have been reached and
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processes arrived at, which have increased the size
of the deployment that was already in place. This
has increased the need to budget for it, and there
have been - as a result of the tensions in the
eastern Congo - which resulted in fresh deployments
being required. That is all unforeseen, and the
United Nations will have to meet its obligations
once we have submitted the necessary budgets. They
then adjust in keeping with that.
The stories in the newspapers - that we are in
disarray, that we have not done proper budgeting,
and so on - fail to understand the internal
operation of the budget of missions of this nature.
Of course, the process is being handled now by the
Treasury, and we will be in a position to show that
these missions, having now come as fresh
deployments, cost so much. The UN has a specific
amount to carry, and the country has a specific
amount to carry. I don't think it is a proper thing
to alarm the country by suggesting that we don't
know what we're doing, and that there is a deep
hole into which we are throwing the electorate's
money. I thank you, Madam Speaker.
24 June 2003
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The SPEAKER: Thank you, Minister, and thank you for
your brevity.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Decision of Question on Votes and Schedules)
The SPEAKER: Members, I wish to thank parties for
advising the staff on the Votes on which they wish
to make declarations and on which they will record
objections. The information will greatly assist in
processing this afternoon. I will put each Vote and
ask parties for Declarations of Vote as they have
indicated. After this, I will put the Vote for
Decision. By agreement, Declarations will be
limited to two minutes. The bells will be rung for
one minute for the first division on a Vote, but
for only 15 seconds on subsequent divisions.
Vote No 1 - The Presidency - put.
Declarations of vote:
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Mr W J SEREMANE: Madam Speaker, last week the
Leader of the Opposition strongly suggested that we
focus on the real, pertinent issues of job
creation, crime prevention and the scourge of Aids.
As usual, the President met this with the stock
response of race, conveniently ignoring tribalism
in its many ethnic nostrums. Unfortunately
President Mbeki's flawed methods of debate are too
well known. He attributes words and motives to his
critics that are simply not there. He therefore,
like Don Quixote, attacks his own straw men - which
in reality are phantoms of his imagination - and he
does not engage in a real debate advanced by his
opponents and critics. [Interjections.] Pres Mbeki
made a fundamentally fallacious, if not outrageous
and undemocratic accusation. He said of millions
and millions of South Africans who legitimately
opposed his party and differ with his presidency,
that:
they do not see a role for themselves as active
and conscious participants in the process of
national reconciliation.
24 June 2003
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It is time to get out of this dead-end street and
onto the high road ...
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, we have a very long
afternoon ahead of us and if the ANC is going to
behave like this from the very first speech, I
would urge that we have some decorum in the House.
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, please take your
seat.
Mr W J SEREMANE: Unpalatable. It is time to get out
of this dead-end street and onto the high road of
sustained economic growth, real job creation and a
massive campaign to combat Aids and fight crime. It
is the President's failure to address these issues
in a real and inclusive fashion that gives us no
choice but to oppose this Budget Vote and to call
for a division on this Vote. [Applause.]
Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Speaker, die toespraak wat die
agb President gehou het tydens die debat oor die
finale verslag van die WVK was 'n baie belangrike
mylpaal op die pad van versoening in Suid-Afrika,
24 June 2003
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maar versoening is 'n proses wat nie oornag bereik
kan word nie en waaraan elke landsburger aktief
moet werk om dit 'n werklikheid te maak. Veral
politici het ook 'n verantwoordelikheid om
versoening te laat slaag. En wat ons nie kan
bekostig nie, is dat in die aanloop tot die
volgende verkiesing, polarisasie egter gaan
verskerp, in plaas van om versoening 'n werklikheid
te maak. En ongelukkig as 'n mens oordeel aan die
trant van die DA tydens die debat oor die President
se begrotingspos, is dit presies wat gaan gebeur.
[Tussenwerpsels.] Die Nuwe NP ondersteun hierdie
begrotingspos van die President. [Applous.]
(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Dr B L GELDENHUYS: Speaker, the speech made by the
hon President during the debate regarding the final
report of the TRC was a very important milestone on
the road to reconciliation in South Africa, but
reconciliation is a process that cannot be achieved
overnight and something which every citizen should
actively work towards making a reality. Politicians
specifically also have a responsibility to make
reconciliation succeed. And what we cannot afford
24 June 2003
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is that in the run-on to the next election,
polarisation, however, is going to increase,
instead of reconciliation being made a reality. And
unfortunately if one judges by the manner of the DA
during the debate about the President's Budget
Vote, this is exactly what is going to happen.
[Interjections.] The New NP supports the
President's Budget Vote. [Applause.]]
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam
Speaker, the ANC supports Budget Vote No 1, the
Presidency. The key challenges facing South African
society are, firstly, to pursue economic growth,
development and redistribution in such a way as to
improve the people's quality of life and ensure
that the frontiers of poverty are pushed back.
Secondly, it is to deepen democracy and the culture
of human rights and mobilise the people to take an
active part in changing their lives for the better.
Thirdly, the key challenge is to transform the
state machinery to serve the cause of social change
and ensure that the needs of the people are put
24 June 2003
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first. Fourthly, to ensure Africa's Renaissance and
to build a new world order.
The presidency under the leadership of Pres Thabo
Mbeki has been at the forefront of ensuring that
all these challenges are addressed. The presidency
has done this by providing leadership, coordination of the activities of Government,
resulting in better planning, and service delivery.
Initiatives such as the urban renewal and
integrated rural development programmes are but
some of the examples of this approach.
Through the work of the National Youth Commission,
the Office on the Status of Women and the Office on
the Status of Disabled People, the presidency has
assisted in co-ordinating and focusing the work of
Government as a whole, and addresses the issues of
particularly vulnerable sectors of our society who
were affected most by apartheid oppression. Through
the imbizo programme the presidency has assisted in
bringing Government closer to the people and
emphasize the need of the people to play an active
role in improving their own lives.
24 June 2003
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The presidency has had a huge impact on the
international terrain through our country's
positive contributions in Africa and abroad. These
interventions have contributed to the fight against
poverty through seeking to create peace and thus
the possibility for economic growth. We support
this Vote and hope that this Appropriation Bill
will further assist the presidency in its quest to
provide strategic leadership and ensure that
Government meets the needs of all our people and
delivers on its commitment to a better life for
all. I thank you. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 246: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R;
Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Balfour, B M
N; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J; Beukman,
F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A; Bloem, D V;
Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W;
Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J;
Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Cindi, N V; Cwele, S C;
24 June 2003
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Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S
L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O;
Doidge, G Q M; Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Duma,
N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira,
E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C
T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A;
Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen,
A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M;
Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C;
Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W;
Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh,
T; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W;
Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q
J; Kgwele, L G; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W;
Kota, Z A; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M
G P; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K;
Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D
C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Madikiza, G;
Maduna, P M; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N;
Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F;
Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J;
Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T
A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D;
Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N;
24 June 2003
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Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F;
Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F;
Matthews, V J G; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A;
Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana,
M M S; Mentor, M P; Mfundisi, I S; Middleton, N
S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P;
Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R;
Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S;
Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A;
Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy,
K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa,
M R; Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D;
Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M;
Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N
W; Mufamadi, F S; Mulder, P W A; Mzondeki, M J G;
Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P
J; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S;
Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L
V J; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G;
Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H;
Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T;
Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M
E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G
C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala,
24 June 2003
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M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R;
Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; RamakabaLesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramodike, M N;
Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R;
Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O;
Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E
(Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman,
E A; Schoeman, R S; September, C C; September, R
K; Shabalala, T; Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M;
Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu,
L N; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F;
Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E;
Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S N; Tarr, M
A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E;
Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van
der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A;
Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z;
Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Xulu,
M; Zita, L; Zondo, R P.
NOES - 35: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Blanché, S;
Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J
T; Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B;
Grobler, G A J; Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J; Le
24 June 2003
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Roux, W; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K;
Millen, T E; Moorcroft, E K; Ntuli, R S;
Opperman, S E; Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R;
Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A; Seremane, J; Smuts, M;
Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Theron, J
L; Van Deventer, F; Van Niekerk, K; Waters, M.
Vote accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 2 - Parliament - put and agreed to.
Vote No 3 - Foreign Affairs - put and agreed to
(National Action dissenting).
Mr C AUCAMP: Madam Speaker, on a point of order:
The hon Ramodike's name is indicated at his seat,
but another member's name is on the voting machine.
Now he is afraid he is voting in another member's
name. Can the table just assure us whether Mr
Ramodike's name is there or not? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, we will establish
what Mr Ramodike, as distinct from the other
member, wished to vote. If you would later on
24 June 2003
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indicate to the table. The vote will be corrected
accordingly.
Vote No 4 - Home Affairs - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr S PILLAY: Madam Speaker, we are going to vote in
favour of the budget. However, we emphasise the
fact that we are not satisfied with the manner in
which this department is managed. It is one of the
departments that will, in future, enjoy the
benefits of close scrutiny, not only by the New NP,
but of all responsible citizens of our country.
So disappointed were we that there was a serious
and considerable discussion about opposing this
Budget Vote. We, therefore, call upon the Minister
to take very careful note of this declaration and
to take appropriate measures to deal with the vast
problem that plagues this department.
Undoubtedly, the Department of Home Affairs is one
that everyone has a vested interest in. Our
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interest is that it serves the purpose for which it
is intended. That is not happening. To list a few
problems, there is a chronic shortage of staff and
an alarming exodus of trained and skilled staff.
Citizens have to wait for excessive periods to
obtain enabling documents. Others have waited since
1996, when they first applied. Some have reached
the age of 60 and they do not have enabling
documents.
In a number of rural areas, there are no facilities
to make applications. One finds false IDs,
passports and other documents are all over the
country. People that appear to commit these crimes
cannot be apprehended, for whatever reason. That is
by the department's own confession. Thank you.
Ms N S MATHIBELA: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports
the Budget Vote for Home Affairs. We note with
appreciation, the fact that the budget has been
increasing in real terms, over the last six years.
However, we also note the fact that the budget
allocation is less than what the department had
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requested from the National Treasury. This is a
trend across all the departments of Government.
This is what the country can generate in terms of
revenue and has to be equitably distributed among
the competing priorities of our country.
We call upon all patriots to redouble their efforts
in assisting the Minister of Home Affairs, the
Deputy Minister, the director-general and the
department in their effort to discharge efficient
service to the South African public.
Our common mission is to make South Africa a
winning nation, and for this to be realised, we
should spare neither effort nor strength in making
this a reality. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote No 4 agreed to.
Vote No 5 - Provincial and Local Government - put.
Declarations of vote:
24 June 2003
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Mnr G A J GROBLER: Speaker, die DA steun nié die
begrotingspos vir die Departement vir Provinsiale
en Plaaslike Regering nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Die Minister en sommige van die personeel in sy
departement bly in gebreke om daadwerklik aandag
aan plaaslike regering te gee. Die lang tye wat die
Minister buite die landsgrense bestee, dui ook op
sy onverskillige houding jeens sy pligte as
Minister vir Provinsiale en Plaaslike Regering.
Eerstens is die Kommissie vir die Bevordering en
Beskerming van die Regte van Kultuur-, Godsdiensen Taalgemeenskappe nie binne 'n aanvaarbare tyd in
werking gestel nie.
Tweedens word daar nie behoorlike opleiding deur
middel van Seta aan munisipaliteite verskaf nie.
Kundige bestuurslui ontbreek in die meeste ANC/Nuwe
NP-beheerde munisipaliteite as gevolg van die
gebrekkige opleiding en onoordeelkundige
aanstellings, en lei daartoe dat munisipaliteite
nie in staat is om behoorlike invordering van hulle
debiteure te doen nie. Agterstallige skulde
24 June 2003
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eskaleer daagliks en 'n bedrag van R24 miljard is
reeds aan munisipaliteite verskuldig, met die
sentrale en provinsiale regerings as die grootste
wanbetalers teen 'n bedrag van ongeveer R2 miljard.
Derdens is die Minister en sy departement nie in
staat om beheer uit te oefen oor die korrekte
aanwending van fondse wat jaarliks deur die
sentrale Regering aan munisipaliteite toegeken word
nie. Dit word weerspieël in die gekwalifiseerde
ouditverslae van meer as 70% van ons
munisipaliteite. Hierdie swak finansiële bestuur
veroorsaak dat fondse aangewend word vir ander
doeleindes as wat die sentrale Regering - minister
Manuel, jy gee dit vir hulle - se bedoeling met die
skenkings is, naamlik dat hierdie geld aangewend
moet word vir die armstes van die armes.
[Tussenwerpsels.] Dit word nié gedoen nie. Dankie.
(Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr G A J GROBLER: Speaker, the DA does not support
this Vote for the Department of Provincial and
Local Government. [Interjections.]
24 June 2003
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The Minister and some of the staff in his
department are failing to give active attention to
local government. The long periods spent by the
Minister outside the borders of the country also
indicate his indifferent attitude towards his
duties as Minister for Provincial and Local
Government.
Firstly, the Commission for the Promotion and
Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and
Language Communities was not implemented within an
acceptable time.
Secondly, no proper training is being provided to
municipalities by means of Seta. Experienced
managerial staff are lacking in most ANC/New NPcontrolled municipalities as a result of the
insufficient training and injudicious appointments,
and this results in municipalities not being able
to do proper collections from their debtors.
Outstanding debts are escalating daily and an
amount of R24 billion is already owed to
municipalities, with the central and provincial
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governments as the largest non-payers at an amount
of approximately R2 billion.
Thirdly, the Minister and his department are not
able to exercise control over the correct
utilisation of funds which are allocated to
municipalities by the central Government annually.
This is reflected in the qualified audit reports of
more than 70% of our municipalities. This poor
financial management results in funds being
utilised for purposes other than those intended by
the central Government - Minister Manuel, you give
it to them - namely that this money must be
utilised for the poorest of the poor.
[Interjections.] This is not being done. Thank
you.]
Mr P F SMITH: Madam Speaker, the IFP will be
supporting this Vote, but we do want to use this
opportunity to indicate our unhappiness to the
Government and, of course, to the ANC as the ruling
party, about the position of local government in
respect of the communal law areas of the country.
24 June 2003
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I think it's important to state that we are, in
fact, in agreement with much of the system of local
government itself. We understand the problems
facing local government and we appreciate that it's
still a new system and is still in its infancy. We
understand this new legislation which, in all
likelihood, we will be supporting. The Minister of
Finance's Management Bill, for example, before us,
and we understand that there's a ten to 15 year
horizon before we can see the transformation of
local government through to its conclusion.
So, there's much we do agree with in the system of
local government. Having said that, I really want
to stress that, as far as the communal law areas
are concerned, we believe that the system is
failing the country and it's failing our people. We
believe, particularly, that Government has behaved
very badly in respect to this matter.
There has, quite frankly, been insufficient
preparedness on behalf of Government, to meet
others half way in this matter. Traditional
leaders, for example, through their representative
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organisations, have expended much effort in trying
to meet Government half way in this matter. But we
find absolutely no reciprocity from Government in
respect of the same thing.
Even worse, Government has led people by the nose,
in respect of promises that it really has had no
intention, I think, of ever honouring. These
promises relate to both the content of local
government system itself, as well as to the
process. Despite all that's been said over the last
two years, Government clearly has no intention of
accommodating an alternative approach towards local
government in these areas. That indicates that we
really want to know why Government, in fact, makes
the promises that it does. It's very inappropriate.
Despite promising with monotonous regularity that
these issues are going to be put to bed, year after
year, we are told that it's going to be finalised
within six months, by the end of the year, and each
year that comes about, the same position obtains.
At the rate that we are going, by the time
elections come, this matter will still be
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outstanding, and we find this completely
unsatisfactory.
In conclusion, we believe that Government, in fact,
has dealt with this very, very important matter
with contempt that it does not deserve. Thank you.
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Madam Speaker, thank you, and I
hope the Minister will not try and detract focus,
as he did the last time. He always has the last say
and he focused on traditional leaders, which is
also one of the issues.
However, we are very emphatic about local
government's equitable share, and that goes to the
Minister of Finance as well. I think, because local
government is the vehicle that is supposed to
deliver on the developmental mandate, it should
definitely get the larger share of the pie.
Also looking at the Intergovernmental Fiscal
Review, it is important that accurate stats are
provided when the new formula is devised. At the
moment, we do know that local governments have
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insufficient fiscal bases, and that most
municipalities who collect their own revenues are
dependent on intergovernment transfers and
definitely have a lack of financial management
capacity.
One of the many challenges that local government
faces is that of financial management. Although
many programmes have been launched, provinces have
yet to present a workable strategy on how they will
attend to improve the financial management capacity
of local government.
Also, we want to acknowledge, or rather caution,
Government not to give jobs for powers. I think
that is where the problem is. They are putting
unskilled people in managerial positions and they
are not able to adequately come up with a financial
plan.
Then there's the tension between councillors,
managers and communities, which is escalating,
where it appears that finances follow political
parties which govern at particular municipalities.
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We have seen that, in the city of Cape Town. It
took them 12 months to come down to sort out the
issues in this particular area.
Let's just say that the ACDP will not be supporting
this Budget Vote. Thank you.
Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker, the UCDP takes note
that the Department of Provincial and Local
Government has a great responsibility to see to
good governance in the provincial and local
spheres.
In the same breath, we appreciate the situation,
but feel that there has to be some quick mobility
around the finalisation and putting in place of the
Commission for the Promotion and Protection of
Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic
Communities.
Concomitant with this is the need for the
resolution of the issue of powers of traditional
leaders. In the same breath, it is also important
that attention be given to cutting down on the
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amount of money being given to the Municipal
Demarcation Board, more so now that their mandate
has been completed, and the resources be given to
some other areas.
Finally, the UCDP notes that, whilst the
Presidential Task Team is busy trying to find out
what is going to happen to the people living in the
so-called cross boundary municipalities, these
people live under very uncertain periods. They are
not sure whether they live in this or that other
province. However, we hope that this will be
resolved quite speedily and, in that breath, the
UCDP will support the Vote.
Ms T E MILLEN: Madam Speaker, the IAM supports the
official opposition ...
The SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, order!
Ms T E MILLEN: May I start again, Madam Speaker?
The SPEAKER: Yes, you may.
24 June 2003
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Ms T E MILLEN: The IAM supports the Official
Opposition and the IFP and, in particular, their
concerns about the traditional leadership, on their
declarations of this Vote, and is deeply concerned
at any sign of weakening of provincial and local
government. I thank you, Madam Speaker.
[Interjections.]
Ms M C LOBE: Madam Speaker, as the ANC, we believe
that municipalities have gone through a protracted,
difficult and challenging transition period, and we
believe that, during this period, they have reached
great strides in ensuring that municipalities
become centres of community life.
We believe that the core business of municipalities
is the provision of services to communities, and
this will, no doubt, necessitate more resources and
support by different spheres of Government to
municipalities.
This Budget Vote will, therefore, go a long way in
assisting municipalities to meet their
constitutional obligations but, above all, in
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assisting us in our endeavour of pushing back the
frontiers of poverty.
We believe that the issue of traditional leadership
finds more expression in the new system of local
government, wherein traditional leaders are
expected to participate in municipalities within
their local areas. We also believe that the
equitable share has been used to address issues
that are associated with the provision of free and
basic services, and this will, no doubt, assist us
in ensuring that we uplift the lives of ordinary
people. [Applause.]
The House divided:
AYES - 255: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R;
Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Aucamp, C; Bakker, D M;
Balfour, B M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bapela,
O; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B
P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N
G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J;
Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi,
N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lange, J H;
24 June 2003
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Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L;
Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O;
Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J;
Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N
B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T;
Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A;
Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen,
A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M;
Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C;
Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W;
Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh,
T; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P;
Kannemeyer, B W; Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z;
Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L G;
Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal,
Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P;
Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K;
Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D
C; Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Magashule, E S;
Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B;
Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela,
M J; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S;
Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I;
Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T;
24 June 2003
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Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T;
Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; MatsepeCasaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M;
Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N
D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P;
Mfundisi, I S; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G;
Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A;
Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R;
Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R;
Mogoba, M S; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B;
Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K
A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V;
Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Mothoagae, P K;
Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H
M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B;
Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S;
Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I
Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C;
Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E;
Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema,
M V; Ngubane, H; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G;
Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H;
Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T;
Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M
24 June 2003
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E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G
C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala,
M J; Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R;
Rabinowitz, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T;
Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M;
Ramodike, M N; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M;
Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen,
M O; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E
(Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman,
E A; Schoeman, R S; Seeco, M A; September, C C;
September, R K; Seremane, J; Shabalala, T;
Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N;
Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N;
Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F;
Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Soloman, G; Sonjica, B P;
Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B;
Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshwete, P;
Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, A
S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A;
Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der
Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zita,
L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.
24 June 2003
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NOES - 42: Andrew, K M; Bell, B G; Blaas, A;
Blanché, S; Borman, G; Camerer, S; ClellandStokes, N J; Da Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Doman,
W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D
H M; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Kalyan, S;
Koornhof, N J; Le Roux, W; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M;
Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Millen, T E;
Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R
S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R;
Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Southgate, R
M; Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard,
R; Theron, J L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
Vote No 5 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 6 - Public Works - put:
Declarations of vote:
Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, the FA objects to
supporting this Vote. [Interjections.]
During the debate on the Budget Vote, we debated
how the hon Minister firstly failed to maintain the
24 June 2003
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nation's buildings and properties entrusted to her
department; secondly, how she failed to draw up a
policy document that would allow her to maintain
buildings and properties which her Cabinet
colleagues neglect to maintain; thirdly, she failed
to respond to petitions from the health departments
of local authorities like Ekwetini to maintain
housing units in Durban; fourthly, she failed to
ensure that one Military Hospital in Pretoria not
be closed for being considered a fire hazard; she
failed to ensure that local authorities are paid
their rates and taxes by various departments who
are millions of rands in arrears; she failed to
ensure that some officials and members of
Parliament who live in parliamentary villages pay
their rent on time and not sublet to people not
entitled to live in these villages, and she failed
to give legitimate reasons why a house in Port
Elizabeth was sold way below market value to the
President's family.
In the old South Africa, Public Works was one of
the best-run departments in the administration.
[Interjections.] Now, it seems that the ANC
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Minister and nine MECs around the country must be
trained and retrained to improve their performance.
[Interjections.] There are too many things going
wrong in this department, for which the Minister
does not take responsibility.
The DA and the FA cannot support this budget whilst
the Minister in charge fails to maintain the
nation's assets in a responsible way.
The SPEAKER: Hon Minister, are you rising on a
point of order?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Yes, Madam Speaker. Is the
hon member allowed to mislead the House in that
way? [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: May I say that all of you do, but it's
deliberate misleading that is ... [Interjections.]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: That's deliberate! That's
deliberate. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
24 June 2003
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Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Federal
Alliance and Independent African Movement
dissenting.)
Vote No 7 - Government Communication and
Information System - put and agreed to (Democratic
Alliance, Federal Alliance and Independent African
Movement dissenting).
Vote No 8 - National Treasury - put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms R TALJAARD: [Interjections.] Calm down, Minister
Manuel. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order!
Ms R TALJAARD: There is no doubt that the work of
the National Treasury represents the lifeblood of
the South African economy. There is no doubt that
under the Gear policy, South Africa has earned
credibility for fiscal rectitude and broad
macroeconomic policy.
24 June 2003
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This in itself warrants support for this Budget
Vote. It is clear that the ongoing crucial
challenge now emanates from faster social delivery.
If only other Ministeries were able to deliver
social change of the calibre of the macroeconomic
stability delivered by National Treasury.
As the declarations here will show today, this is
not
the
case
impossible
the
to
in
too
many
adequately
responsible
departments.
differentiate
divisions
within
It
among
the
is
all
National
Treasury and between the array of public entities
reporting
to
the
Minister
of
Finance
in
a
two-
minute declaration and do them justice.
Separate declarations are desirable if oversight is
to mean anything. In addition, the time has come to
sever the National Treasury and the Intelligence
Votes in order to enable parties in this House to
take
a
itself.
clear
position
The
current
on
the
Intelligence
dispensation
is
Vote
highly
undesirable and has to be resolved without delay.
24 June 2003
Page 66 of 252
The DA would like to congratulate the Minister of
Finance
Africa's
and
the
recent
officials
concerned
on
South
financial
action
task
force
compliance. There is little doubt that one cannot
stand
outside
requirements
the
financial
and
actively
action
combat
moneylaundering and continue to
task
force's
terrorism,
be an attractive
FDI destination.
However, the DA would like to use this opportunity
to express its concern that the National Treasury
appears to have made a decision to adopt the model
of a single financial regulator for South Africa's
financial services sector without sufficient public
debate on this matter or consultation with the SA
Reserve Bank. This matter is of great importance
and significance.
Caution and circumspection must remain watchwords
in any policy choice made by this Government. The
financial services sector literally cannot afford
any ill-conceived experiments.
24 June 2003
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Ms B A HOGAN: Madam Speaker, the ANC rises in
support of the Budget Vote for National Treasury
for the year 2003-04.
As the previous speaker has said, seldom has this
economy ever been in more capable hands than it is
under an ANC Government. [Applause.]
The many, many achievements of this National
Treasury are difficult to enumerate in this small
space of two minutes. Let me say that the spirited,
energetic and purposeful way in which it has gone
about the task of overhauling the macroeconomic
management of this country, our taxation system, of
totally transforming the manner in which revenue is
collected, and implementing a smooth and efficient
running of our intergovernmental fiscal system are
achievements that few governments have ever been
able to reach.
I want to say in connection with the single
financial regulator issue that, yes, there is a
concern. It seems there has been a hiatus in the
development. That certainly does not mean that
24 June 2003
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financial regulation has not received the ongoing
attention of this department. We only need to look
at the comprehensive legislation relating to
consumer protection; the implementation of the
pension surpluses and the apportionment to people
who previously were not entitled to it; the
overhaul of the long-term and short-term insurance
industry; the modernisation of our stock exchanges,
and the complete overhaul of our unit-trust
industry are but a few of the issues related to
financial regulation which this department has
championed.
The ANC would like to congratulate National
Treasury, the Minister, the Deputy Minister and the
DG for the sterling work that they have performed
for this country. [Applause.]
Vote No 8 agreed to.
Vote No 9 - Public Enterprises - put.
Declarations of vote:
24 June 2003
Page 69 of 252
Mr J L THERON: The DA will oppose this Budget Vote.
The DA wants to congratulate Telkom on their
listing on stock exchanges. To quote Rudi Heine's
last speech:
For the first time since the ANC became the
Government, a public listing of a parastatal was
taking place. But surely, in the current economic
climate, this is not enough for all public
enterprises.
South Africa's privatisation programme has been a
disaster. Unnecessary delays, continual
ambivalence, infighting within the tripartite
alliance and excessive conditionality costs South
Africa dearly.
The DA must mention the following very unpleasant
experiences regarding public enterprises. First,
Transnet production/privatisation tender awarded to
Skotaville Press with damages R57 million awarded
by the High Court to the unsuccessful bidder. Two,
donations by parastatals to the ANC network lounge
amounting to between R70 and R140 000 per
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parastatal. This matter has been referred to the
Auditor-General for investigation. Third, Eskom
lost R127 million in a foreign exchange deal
because the procurement department did not follow
the required procedures. Four, the investment in
mounting communications to the amount of R46
million and the non-disclosure of all the
investment transactions, and in particular a
guarantee that gave rise to a contingent liability
for Eskom of R424 million is absolutely shocking.
Five, the announcement that Spoornet needs a
recapitalisation programme of R19 billion. Is it
not bad management that this disaster is being
acted upon only now? The tragedy of Transnet
pension funds, where urgent recapitalisation is
necessary. At least 45 000 pensioners and Transnet
employees are suffering because of the grave
consequences of this.
The DA will oppose this Budget Vote.
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mevrou die Speaker,
agterstallige dienstegelde is al verskeie kere deur
die VF uitgelig as die groot oorsaak van
24 June 2003
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bankrotskappe en finansiële probleme in plaaslike
regering. Maar as ons kom by openbare ondernemings,
en ons gaan kyk na Eskom, sien ons dat Eskom
letterlik miljoene rande afskryf as gevolg van die
niebetaling van elektrisiteitsrekenings.
Die VF sê dis onbillik dat daar by sommige plekke
'n afskrywing kan wees, maar by ander plekke nie.
Dit is reeds bekend dat daar 'n basiese hoeveelheid
krag kosteloos gelewer kan word aan mense wat dit
nie kan bekostig nie. 'n Mens kan nie
belastingbetalersgeld op sentrale vlak vat om mense
op grondvlak te finansier wat nie betaal nie en dit
terwyl hulle wel kan betaal. Daarom sê die VF dit
is onbillik dat betalers van dienstegelde moet
opdok vir die niebetalers wat nooit betaal nie, en
daarom sal die VF nie hierdie pos steun nie.
(Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Madam Speaker, arrear service
fees has been highlighted several times in the past
by the FF as the major cause of bankruptcies and
financial problems in local government. But when it
comes to public enterprises, and we look at Eskom,
24 June 2003
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we see that Eskom writes off literally millions of
rands as a result of nonpayment of electricity
accounts.
The FF says it is unfair that at some places there
can be write-offs, but not at others. It is already
known that a basic amount of electricity may be
supplied free of charge to people who cannot afford
it. One cannot take taxpayers' money at central
level to finance people at grassroots level who do
not pay while they can in fact pay. For this reason
the FF says it is unfair that people who pay
service fees must shoulder the burden for nonpayers
who never pay, and for this reason the FF will not
be supporting this Vote.]
Mr B A D MARTINS: Madam Speaker, the Department of
Public Enterprises has faced many challenges, but
in the history of this country, it has done
exceedingly well with regard to the restructuring
of all state enterprises.
Under the conditions with the requisite challenges,
the department could not have done better and
24 June 2003
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continues to face and address these challenges.
Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Freedom
Front dissenting).
Vote No 10 - Public Service and Administration put and agreed to.
Vote No 11 - Public Service Commission - put and
agreed to.
Vote No 12 - South African Management Development
Institute - put and agreed to.
Vote no 13 - Statistics South Africa - put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms R TALJAARD: Madam Speaker, in recent weeks Stats
SA have grabbed the headlines for the wrong reason.
Due largely to resource constraints, amidst great
demand for statistics, the agency made the wrong
judgement call in discontinuing the crucial October
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Household Survey and that caused distortions in the
crucial CPIX. While the CPIX figures have been
revised downwards and the monetary policy adjusted
accordingly, concerns persist.
Wages and utility tariffs have been distorted by
incorrect data. Hundreds of home owners have paid
more for their bonds. Individuals and co-operatives
have incurred higher financing costs. Wage
negotiations were concluded on the basis of
incorrect figures. Tariff hikes by Eskom, Telkom,
the Post Office and Spoornet were based on faulty
data and are not being readjusted or revisited. The
recent eurobond issue regarding the National
Treasury might result in liabilities for the
Government. Why is no one being held accountable?
In addition, due to the long delays in the release
of Census 2001 data, there is every reason to be
concerned and to ask whether those most desperately
in need of delivery are in fact receiving it in
terms of grants or infrastructural development in
provinces with the backlogs.
24 June 2003
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Minister, where are the Census 2001 results? The
fact is that the delivery is taking place based on
clearly outdated population and household data. Not
only is the pace of delivery slow but we can
rightly ask whether those most in need of delivery
are in actual fact receiving it, as Stats SA are
clearly underresourced, based purely on the wide
range of demands placed on this agency to roll out
a national statistic system. We cannot support a
Budget Vote that inadequately provides for the vast
funding needs of the national statistics system.
Mnr A BLAAS: Speaker, die ACDP is nie oortuig
daarvan dat die bestuursvermoë van Statistiek SA
aan die nodige vereistes voldoen nie. Dit word
weerspieël in die onlangse probleem wat ons gehad
het met die vrystelling van statistiek wat
dramatiese impak het op ons ekonomie en die hele
bedryf van kontrakte en dies meer. Hierdie
standpunt word ook gesteun deur die feit dat daar
ook in die departement self verskille is oor die
prestasievermoë van hierdie departement. Gevolglik
sal die ACDP nie hierdie begrotingspos steun nie.
24 June 2003
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Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph
follows.)
[Mr A BLAAS: Speaker, the ACDP is not convinced
that the management capacity of Statistics SA meets
the necessary requirements. This is reflected in
the recent problem we had in releasing of
statistics, which had a dramatic impact on our
economy and the whole industry of contracts and so
forth. This point of view is also supported by the
fact that in the department itself there is
disagreement about the performance capacity of this
department. Consequently, the ACDP will not support
this Budget Vote. Thank you.]
Ms T E MILLEN: Madam Speaker ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
Ms T E MILLEN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would
just say that I fully support the DA's position on
this. [Interjections.] The debacle on statistics is
enough to really put the whole thing to bed. And if
24 June 2003
Page 77 of 252
I do support the DA, gee whiz, I think I can live
with that! Thank you. [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Order!
[Interjections.]
Ms S B NQODI: Madam Speaker, the ANC supports
Budget Vote 13 on Statistics SA. When I look back
at the period of about 9 years that members of this
House have spent in this democratically elected
Parliament, I want to believe that the experience,
skills and expertise that we have gained really
make all of us seasoned and sober-minded
politicians in the way in which we assess,
interpret or approach and debate issues.
The magnitude and importance of the work done by
Statistics SA should never be underestimated, not
to mention the challenges it faces. The decisions
that we make in all the policies that we formulate
must be informed by the realities of conditions on
the ground under which our public or civil servants
work.
24 June 2003
Page 78 of 252
Statistical data provided to us by Statistics SA
afford us, politicians and Government, with that
gauge or barometer of measuring our performance
when it comes to service delivery. It helps us in
targeting those that are really in need, namely the
rural poor black people or communities. It allows
us to monitor, evaluate and possibly review some of
our policies and programmes if need be, hence the
ANC's unequivocal acknowledgement of the
miscalculations of the CPIX, which we deeply
regret. We have said that.
The budget allocation of Statistics SA has
intranational importance because the Government as
a whole utilises statistical data prepared by
Statistics SA. Furthermore, our own social partners
in business and labour also utilise that same data
to keep our economy on a growth trajectory.
Statistics SA is currently on its way to becoming a
quality statistical knowledge centre in statistical
production. Therefore, the resource envelope
allocated to it will probably alleviate the awesome
burden of backlogs that we have inherited. This is
a far cry from an apartheid past when there were no
24 June 2003
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reliable official statistics. The ANC supports the
Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, African
Christian Democratic Party, Federal Alliance and
Independent African Movement dissenting).
Vote No 14 - Arts and Culture - put:
Declarations of vote:
Mnr S E OPPERMAN: Speaker, die DA steun die
begrotingspos, alhoewel ons baie bekommerd is oor
die gebrek aan verantwoordbare finansiële bestuur
by instellings soos die Robbeneiland-museum, en
versoek dat nuwe bewerings van ongerymdhede by
onder meer Windybrow in Johannesburg dringend
ondersoek word. Die verslegtende verhouding tussen
die departement en sekere kultuurorganisasies is
ook onaanvaarbaar.
Die DA verwelkom die voorgestelde taalwetgewing wat
gelykberegtiging aan al 11 amptelike tale waarborg.
Dit is belangrik dat die wetgewing deur alle
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Page 80 of 252
staatsdepartemente toegepas sal word sonder om
skuiwergate te soek om die gees daarvan te
ondermyn.
Vertalingfasiliteite moet dringend uitgebrei word
om nie net meer tale te akkommodeer nie, maar ook
om aan besoekers in die galery die geleentheid te
bied om alle debatte te volg. Die nasionale
Parlement moet deur die voorbeeld wat ons stel,
demonstreer dat veeltaligheid ons erns is. Elke
komponent van ons taaldiversiteit moet beskerm en
uitgebrei word, anders word ons amptelike leuse,
``eenheid in diversiteit,'' 'n belaglikheid. Ek
dank u. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans
speech follows.)
[Mr S E OPPERMAN: Speaker, the DA supports the
Budget Vote, although we are very concerned about
the lack of accountable financial management at
institutions such as the Robben Island Museum, and
requests that new allegations of irregularities at,
among others, Windybrow in Johannesburg should
urgently be investigated. The deteriorating
24 June 2003
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relationship between the department and certain
cultural organisations is also unacceptable.
The DA welcomes the proposed language legislation
that guarantees equal empowerment to all 11
official languages. It is important that the
legislation is applied throughout all government
departments without searching for loopholes to
undermine the spirit of it.
Translation facilities must be urgently expanded;
not only to accommodate more languages, but also to
give visitors in the gallery the opportunity to
follow all debates. The national Parliament must,
through the example that we are setting,
demonstrate that multilingualism is our serious
concern. Each component of our language diversity
must be protected and expanded, otherwise our
official motto, ``unity in diversity'' is made
ludicrous. I thank you. [Interjections.]]
Mrs M A A NJOBE: Chairperson, the ANC supports Vote
No 14 on Arts and Culture. The creation of a
separate Department of Arts and Culture has led to
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more resources being allocated to arts, culture and
languages. All the programmes that formerly shared
resources with science and technology now have a
better allocation. There is now opportunity for
better focus, and, I want to emphasise,
particularly on the arts and languages and,
therefore, hopefully there will be better
performance in future.
The Department of Arts and Culture recently held a
consultative conference on multilingualism. It was
a very, very successful conference. What we are
looking forward to now is a Bill that will come to
Parliament: the South African Languages Bill.
Therefore there is no need to panic. The department
is up and coming. There is a new director-general
and we hope for better performance, as I have
already said. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 15 - Education - put.
Declarations of vote:
24 June 2003
Page 83 of 252
Mnr W P DOMAN: Voorsitter, die DA is tevrede dat
die toegang van alle leerders tot onderwys
nagestreef word en dat die maksimum begroting aan
die onderwys toegeken is. (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraph follows.)
[Mr W P DOMAN: Chairperson, the DA is satisfied
that access to education for all learners is the
aspiration and that education has been allocated
the maximum budget.]
However, the mere spending of additional amounts of
public money without improvement on learning
outcomes, retention rates and pass rates is no
indicator of success. Without hard roll-out plans
and proper costing, the recent action plan is
little more than the carefully timed release of a
list of election promises which the Minister, in
his own words, said will only be phased in in the
next financial year.
Earlier this month, the Minister released his
systemic evaluation report on the foundation phase.
It concedes that the poor performance of learners,
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particularly in numeracy and literacy, is a cause
for concern. The truth is that the majority of the
Grade 3 learners have been victims of bad teaching
within a poorly implemented Curriculum 2005. This
alone would be justification to vote against the
budget.
Nog 'n rede is egter dat 60% van leerders die skool
verlaat sonder matriek, en gekoppel hieraan is die
afname in matrikulante en
universiteitsvrystellings. (Translation of
Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[However, another reason is the fact that 60% of
learners leave school without matric, and coupled
with this is the decrease in matriculants and
university exemptions.]
The Minister and his department have failed to have
the curriculum for further education and training
ready in time. Not only do learners who complete
Grade 9 have to go back to an outdated curriculum
in Grade 10 but, once again, no parents of learners
24 June 2003
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in Grade 9 know what the criteria are for promotion
at the end of this year.
'n Derde rede waarom die DA teen die begrotingspos
stem, is omdat die ANC-regering die bevoegdhede van
beheerliggame inperk deur in te meng met hulle
aanstellingsbevoegdheid, met hulle inisiatiewe om
deur ekstra vergoeding onderwysers te behou en te
motiveer, en met hulle reg om godsdiensbeoefening
te reël. Ten slotte is dit lofwaardig dat die agb
Minister met die plan gekom het om die
hoëronderwysinstellings van 36 na 21 te verminder,
maar ons hoor niks omtrent die kwantifisering van
die poste nie ... (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraph follows.)
[A third reason why the DA is voting against this
Budget Vote, is because the ANC Government limits
the powers of governing bodies by interfering with
their power to make appointments, with their
initiatives to maintain and motivate educators
through additional remuneration, and with their
right to regulate religious practice. Finally, it
is laudable that the hon Minister formulated a plan
24 June 2003
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to reduce institutions for higher education from 36
to 21, but we do not hear anything about the
quantification of posts ...]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member,
your time has expired.
Mr W P DOMAN: ... en daarom kan ons, ten spyte van
die Minister se ywer, nie die begrotingspos steun
nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] [... and therefore we
cannot, despite the Minister's diligence, support
the Budget Vote. [Interjections.]]
Mrs M E OLCKERS: Chairperson, the New NP once again
calls on the Minister of Education not to introduce
the so-called new measures in education unless they
have been thoroughly thought through and unless the
suggestion had been through a decent process of
consultation with stakeholders, including parents,
and not only with his officials. We are not against
reform but only after thorough research must it be
introduced.
24 June 2003
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The education system has been through a very
unstable time in the past few years and we owe it
to everybody involved to now operate in a more
stable climate. However, we acknowledge that this
is a very difficult and varied portfolio and we
thank the Minister for his enthusiasm in doing this
very difficult job. The New NP will support the
Budget Vote. [Interjections.]
Dr P W A MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, werkloosheid
is waarskynlik op hierdie oomblik Suid-Afrika se
grootste probleem. Een van die belangrikste wyses
om dit op te los is 'n goeie onderwysstelsel wat
produkte lewer wat die probleme van werkloosheid
kan oplos. As eerste stap moet ons in Suid-Afrika
daarin slaag om alle kinders op skool te kry. Ons
het nog nie daarin geslaag nie. Daarná moet ons
daarin slaag om basiese onderwys aan almal te gee.
Afrikaners het in die ou dae spottenderwys in
Engels gesê onderwys moet aan kinders die drie R'e
gee: ``reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic''. Ons
huidige onderwysdepartement, sê ek, is te besig om
allerlei tierlantyntjies in die onderwys in te
24 June 2003
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bring en daarom mis hulle hierdie basiese goed wat
kan help dat ons van onder af kan opbou. Daarná kan
'n mens die luukses van tierlantyntjies begin
invoer.
Verder verskil ons van die Minister se benadering
dat hy aan skole en universiteite op alle vlakke
wil voorskryf. Dit geld vir kurrikula, godsdiens op
skool, asook die huidige samesmelting van
universiteite wat steeds meer druk op Afrikaans as
onderrigtaal op universiteit plaas. Die VF sal
daarteen stem. (Translation of Afrikaans speech
follows.)
[Dr P W A Mulder: Mr Chairman, unemployment is
probably South Africa's biggest problem at this
moment. One of the most important ways to solve it
would be a good educational system, which will
deliver products who would be able to solve the
problems of unemployment. As a first step, we in
South Africa must succeed in getting all children
to attend school. We have not managed to do that
yet. Then, we must succeed in giving basic
education to all.
24 June 2003
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Afrikaners, in the old days jokingly said that we
must give our children the three R's: ``reading,
'riting and 'rithmetic''. Our current Education
Department, I would say, is too busy to import all
kinds of frills to education and therefore they
miss all these basic things which could help us
build from afresh. Only then can one start to
import the frills.
Furthermore, we disagree with the Minister's
approach of wanting to prescribe to schools and
universities on all levels. This includes
curricula, religion in schools, as well as the
current merging of universities, which put more
pressure on Afrikaans as medium of instruction. The
FF will vote against it.]
Ms T E MILLEN: Mr Chairperson, the IAM opposes
interference in religious matters in our public
schools. When you get the situation that the
mainstream religious groups - Christian, Muslim,
Hindu and Jewish religions - are all agreed in
opposing such interference, surely, hon Minister, a
24 June 2003
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message must be getting through to the powers that
be. [Interjections.]
The IAM also opposes obstructing schools from
funding their own additional teachers and opposes
all attempts to reduce education to the lowest
common denominator. [Interjections.] We will not be
supporting this Vote. Thank you. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order, hon
members!
Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, the NA appreciates
the assurance that the hon Minister gave me with
regard to religion in education when he said, ``We
have met all your concerns''. But, although I would
like to believe that the Minister subjectively
spoke the truth, I have doubts whether the Minister
and I are at one with regard to the extent and
content of our concerns. We are not happy with this
interference in the religious character of
education.
24 June 2003
Page 91 of 252
Dan is ons ook ongelukkig met die praktyk dat daar
toegelaat word dat mense met hulle voete stem om
die taalbeleid van skole te verander en dat die
beheerliggaam nie kan besluit wat die taalbeleid is
en daarvolgens kinders kan toelaat nie. Die
omgekeerde gebeur. Ons kry eintlik ``bussing'' kinders word aangery en dan word die skool gedwing
om die taalbeleid te verander sodat net 15% van die
skole wat Afrikaans was nou nog steeds
Afrikaansmedium is.
Dan het ons 'n groot probleem met die inmenging in
die tersiêre vlak van onderrig. Die PUK se naam het
in die slag gebly. Ons gee nie om oor die
``Potchefstroom'' nie, maar ons gee om oor die
``CHO''. Honderd en vyftig jaar se geskiedenis is
met een besluit 'n streep deurgetrek, en as 'n mens
met die mense praat, sê hulle hulle het nie 'n
keuse gehad nie, want die skaakmeester van bo het
die pionne geskuif. Die NA gaan definitief teen die
onderwysbeleid stem. Dankie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
24 June 2003
Page 92 of 252
[Then we are also dissatisfied with the practice
that people are allowed to vote by means of protest
marches to change the language policy of schools
and that the controlling body cannot decide on the
language policy and admit children accordingly. The
opposite happens. We actually get ``bussing'' children are conveyed to a school and then the
school is forced to change the language policy so
that only 15% of the schools which used to be
Afrikaans are now still Afrikaans medium.
Then we have an enormous problem with the
interference on the tertiary level of education.
The PUK's name has fallen a victim to this. We do
not mind about the ``Potchefstroom'', but we mind
about the ``CHO''. One hundred and fifty years'
history has been nullified by one decision, and if
one talks to people, they say that they had no
choice because the chess master at the top shifted
the pawns. The NA is definitely going to vote
against the education policy. Thank you.
[Interjections.]]
24 June 2003
Page 93 of 252
Prof S M MAYATULA: Hon Chair, the ANC supports this
Budget Vote. Through this budget, the ANC-led
Government is committed and determined to transform
the educational system of this country to benefit
all our people, black and white; especially the
poorest of the poor.
The religion in education document, which was well
explained by the department in our committee
meeting - unfortunately the member of the IAM was
not there - and which is now out for public
comment, is meant to encourage acceptance of
different religions in our schools. As a rainbow
nation, let us embrace each other. Let us live
together despite our differences. Let us not be
tempted to use our Christian majority. The members
who were present in the portfolio committee meeting
did accept that some of the misconceptions in the
press were just that.
The proposed funding formula for schools, which is
equitable in its approach, will have a dramatic
impact on the funding of nonpersonnel items of the
poorest schools in our country. This shows that the
24 June 2003
Page 94 of 252
tide has turned. The people of the Northern Cape,
both black and white, were all smiles when their
national institute for higher education was
inaugurated over the past weekend. This is an
indication that, surely, the tide has turned.
The Jacob Zuma Trust is reaching out to the
forgotten children of our country to restore their
pride and human dignity. That is transformation at
its best. Thank you. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! The schedule
does not list the IFP but I have recognised them.
Will you please make your declaration.
Mr M A MPONTSHANE: Hon Chairperson, the IFP
supports Vote No 15. However, the transfer of
funds, especially the R5 million which has been
transferred to the Jacob Zuma Trust Fund, remains a
source of concern to us. The fact that the
recipients of bursaries from this trust fund are
those who have been identified by the TRC process
makes it even more suspicious and unequitable.
24 June 2003
Page 95 of 252
The IFP has suffered many distortions, including
distortions by the TRC. The IFP lost many of its
followers and leaders through perpetrators who have
been given amnesty by the TRC process. The awarding
of these bursaries would exclude those whom the TRC
has wrongfully labelled as villains. This process
should be open to all political parties if we do
not want to perpetuate these distortions. I thank
you.
Division demanded.
The House divided.
AYES - 247: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R;
Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B
M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O;
Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P;
Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G
W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J;
Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi,
N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lille, P; Diale,
L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H
K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Douglas, B M; Duma,
24 June 2003
Page 96 of 252
N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira,
E T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C
T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A;
Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen,
A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M;
Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C;
Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W;
Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Jassat, E E; Jeffery,
J H; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W;
Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q
J; Kgwele, L G; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W;
Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K;
Lekota, M G P; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T;
Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Mabandla, B
S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D;
Mabuza, D D; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N;
Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F;
Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J;
Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T
A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D;
Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N;
Masithela, N H; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F;
Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye,
M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M;
24 June 2003
Page 97 of 252
Mbombo, N D; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P;
Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A;
Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K;
Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J;
Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S;
Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D;
Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi,
S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M;
Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Mothoagae, P K;
Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H
M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B;
Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S;
Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I
Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C;
Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E;
Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema,
M V; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A
A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N
R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S
B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A;
Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H;
Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Phohlela,
S; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R; Rabinowitz, R;
Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-
24 June 2003
Page 98 of 252
Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P;
Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S
S; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E
(Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman,
E A; Schoeman, R S; Seeco, M A; September, C C;
Shabalala, T; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibiya,
M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R;
Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M;
Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B
M; Soloman, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu,
M M; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; TshabalalaMsimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Vadi, I;
Van der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van
Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever,
R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G;
Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondo, R P; Zuma, J G.
NOES - 45: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G;
Blaas, A; Blanché, S; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da
Camara, M L; Delport, J T; Doman, W; Eglin, C W;
Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V
C; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J; Kalyan, S;
Koornhof, N J; Le Roux, W; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M;
Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Millen, T E;
24 June 2003
Page 99 of 252
Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel,
A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P;
Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A;
Seremane, J; Smuts, M; Southgate, R M; Steele, M
H; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Theron, J
L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
Vote No 15 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 16 - Health - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr M WATERS: Chair, South Africa is fast becoming
known as the killing fields with hundreds of
thousands of people already dying from Aids-related
diseases. The graveyards are becoming filled to
capacity and the mortuaries are overflowing with
dead bodies.
Through the ANC Government's narrow-minded and
outdated stance on HIV/Aids, we are creating a
nation of orphans which this Government cannot look
after - 500 000 of them, to be precise. Research
24 June 2003
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has shown conclusively that it is cheaper in the
long run to provide antiretroviral treatment for
HIV sufferers than to allow people to die. Instead
of tackling the problem, the Government continues
only to treat opportunistic infections, thus
sentencing HIV-positive people to a certain early
death.
The Government is also the single biggest employer
of over one million people. The Aids disaster is
taking its toll on the Public Service with the
department's own report saying that without
treatment service delivery will suffer as 250 000
public servants would have died from Aids by 2012.
The hon Minister Fraser-Moleketi's report further
stated that skilled and highly skilled employees
are at the highest risk of infection. The current
HIV-infection level in the Public Service is 14%,
but higher in key areas. The rate amongst student
nurses is 30%, teachers 18%, social workers 19% and
the defence force 22% - from your own report, hon
Minister.
24 June 2003
Page 101 of 252
This is the first year when Aids-related deaths in
the Public Service will outnumber non-Aids deaths.
The DA, along with every sane South African, is
saying that we must start a national antiretroviral
treatment campaign, because we cannot as human
beings tolerate 600 deaths per day to Aids.
I am today speaking on behalf of the five million
infected people in my country, the 500 000 orphans
and the millions of South Africans who are
gobsmacked at the ANC's stance on HIV. The DA
cannot in all conscience support the health budget.
I thank you. [Interjections.]
Dr R RABINOWITZ: Chairperson, the IFP is not
satisfied with the standard of health care in
public services and even less satisfied with
services in rural areas. We oppose the move to
centralise control over all aspects of health
policy. The IFP advocates greater decentralisation
and clarity in health policy and a bottom-up
approach.
24 June 2003
Page 102 of 252
We advocate greater autonomy and funding, and point
out that the worst aspect of duplication in
bureaucracy is in conditional grants, which
constitute 20% of health spend in provinces and are
difficult to use.
The IFP wants to see more use of incentives and
competitive public-private partnerships to bridge
the gap between levels of care in public and
private institutions.
As regards HIV/Aids, the IFP does not support the
secrecy and anonymity informing much of
Government's policies. We advocate more testing and
the need for people to know their status. We
advocate stronger censorship when people knowingly
or willingly infect their sex partners with HIV.
Unlike Government's desire to give no one what
cannot be given to everyone, the IFP advocates an
incremental approach to providing nevirapine to
pregnant mothers and antiretroviral treatment to
people with HIV or Aids.
24 June 2003
Page 103 of 252
There should be better use of partnerships between
donors, civil society and Government until all
people who need it receive the medicine they need.
The IFP abhors the Minister of Health's failure to
allow KwaZulu-Natal to use the 73 million dollars
donated to the Enhancing Care Initiative by the
Global Fund. The NGO awarded this money by the fund
was none other than the Nelson Mandela School of
Medicine. It was judged to have submitted the best
proposal that the fund has received. The money
would be distributed through a reputable and
tightly audited chain of care givers. The Global
Fund has declared the money ready to be transferred
and the health ministry has proved its capacity to
distribute millions of dollars in donor funding.
This political obstruction of funding for orphans,
mothers, Aids sufferers and the population at large
is a dereliction of duty. [Interjections.] Thank
you.
Dr P W A MULDER: Mnr die Voorsitter, die MIV/Vigspandemie is die grootste gesondheidskrisis wat
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Suid-Afrika moet hanteer sedert die 1918griepepidemie.
Die toekoms sal wys dat dit die ergste is wat ons
nog ooit gehad het. Nieteenstaande baie debatte in
hierdie Raad oor die Regering se beleid ten opsigte
van hierdie sake, is hy steeds onduidelik en steeds
verwarrend. Daarom gaan die VF teen hierdie
begrotingspos stem.
Elke Suid-Afrikaanse dokter nog wat die land
verlaat, is 'n ontelbare verlies vir Suid-Afrika.
Die departement slaag nie daarin om selfs, na nege
jaar, toestande in hospitale en in die
gesondheidsomgewing te skep wat Suid-Afrikaanse
dokters aanmoedig om nie die land te verlaat nie en
wel hier aan te bly. Ons kan nie toelaat dat dit so
tot ons eie nadeel voortgaan nie. Die VF sal teen
die begrotingspos stem. (Translation of Afrikaans
speech follows.)
[Dr P W A MULDER: Mr Chairman, the HIV/Aids
pandemic is the largest health crisis with which
24 June 2003
Page 105 of 252
South Africa has had to deal since the influenza
epidemic of 1918.
The future will show that it was the worst we have
ever experienced. Despite many debates in this
House on the Government's policy with regard to
these issues, it is still unclear and still
confusing. That is why the FF will vote against
this Budget Vote.
Each and every South African doctor who leaves the
country is an incalculable loss to South Africa.
Even after nine years, the department is not able
to create conditions in hospitals and in the health
environment which would encourage South African
doctors not to leave the country, but rather remain
here. We cannot allow this to continue to our own
disadvantage. The FF will vote against the Budget
Vote.]
Ms T E MILLEN: Thank you, Chairperson. The IAM
fully supports the position of the DA in opposing
this Vote. [Interjections.]
24 June 2003
Page 106 of 252
And I cannot add anything further to the comments
made by the hon Ruth Rabinowitz about the UN Global
Fund and the Minister's attitude. It's just a pity
that the IFP is not also voting against this Vote.
Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, may I ask my
benchmate rather to say we are against the Vote
than to say we support the DA. It sounds much
better. [Laughter.]
The NA will vote against the Health Budget.
Ons sien die Regering se vigsbeleid is nog steeds
vol en deurtrek van dissidente se standpunte, wat
die land na 'n ramp gaan lei. Die traagheid om
antiretrovirale middels vrylik beskikbaar te stel
ten spyte van 'n hofbevel, moet veroordeel word. En
dan is dit ook so dat die Regering se vigsbeleid
CCC is - ``condomise, condomise, condomise.''
(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[We notice that the Government's Aids policy is
still riddled with dissidents' viewpoints, which is
24 June 2003
Page 107 of 252
going to lead the country to disaster. The
reluctance to make antiretrovirals freely
available, in spite of a court order, must be
condemned. And then it is also true that the
Government's Aids policy is CCC - condomise,
condomise, condomise.]
And not ABC - abstinence, be faithful and
condomise.
Die toestande in staatshospitale is veral
skrikwekkend. Gaan kyk net in vanoggend se Beeld
waar vertel word van 'n 84-jarige dame wat gesond
in 'n hospitaal ingegaan het en siek daar uitgekom
het. Die NA kan nie hierdie begrotingspos steun
nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph
follows.)
[The conditions in state hospitals are especially
alarming. Just have a look at this morning's Beeld,
in which there is an article about an 84-year-old
lady who was healthy when she entered the hospital,
and ill when she left it. The NA cannot support
this Budget Vote. I thank you.]
24 June 2003
Page 108 of 252
Mr L V J NGCULU: Chairperson, as the ANC we stand
in full and unequivocal support of this budget. We
do so confident of the route we have travelled in
the field of health; confident that since 1994 many
achievements have been made in this field. Ours
does not begin and end with HIV/Aids.
We look at health in a comprehensive and deeper
manner. We are aware that in the budget of HIV/Aids
in this current Budget, 32% has been allocated for
HIV/Aids, which is something that we should all
appreciate. An amount of R500 million have been
allocated for retention and recruitment of staff,
especially in the rural areas, for serious
programmes and more allocation to conditional
grants for hospital revitalisation programmes.
These are the achievements that make us proud to
say today that we support this Budget.
Those of us who have a microscope and are looking
only from one area, especially those who think
perhaps HIV/Aids is going to be their own rallying
call in the elections, will be found wanting when
24 June 2003
Page 109 of 252
we come to the elections in 2004. [Interjections.]
Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 244: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R;
Arendse, J D; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N;
Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Benjamin, J; Beukman,
F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane,
H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G;
Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M
M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cwele, S C;
Davies, R H; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S
L; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Douglas, B M; Du
Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z;
Erwin, A; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; FraserMoleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Geldenhuys, B L;
George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya,
N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J;
Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B;
Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B;
Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Holomisa,
24 June 2003
Page 110 of 252
S P; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T; Joemat, R R;
Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasrils, R; Kati, J
Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L G;
Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal,
Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P;
Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K;
Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabandla,
B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D;
Mabuza, D D; Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N;
Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F;
Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J;
Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T
A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D;
Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N;
Masithela, N H; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F;
Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S
M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi,
L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Middleton, N
S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P;
Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise,
T R; Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T
R; Mogoba, M S; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B;
Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K
A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V;
24 June 2003
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Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R;
Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D;
Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M;
Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N;
Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S;
Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ncinane, I
Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C;
Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E;
Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema,
M V; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njobe, M A
A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N
R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S
B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Olifant, D A A;
Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H;
Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R
D; Pillay, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally,
S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai,
C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T;
Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O; Roopnarain, U;
Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E (Cassim); Schippers, J;
Schneeman, G D; Schoeman, E A; Schoeman, R S;
Seeco, M A; September, C C; September, R K;
Shabalala, T; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibiya,
M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R;
24 June 2003
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Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M;
Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B
M; Soloman, G; Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu,
M M; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; TshabalalaMsimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Twala, N M; Van der
Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A; Van
Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van
der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Xulu, M;
Zita, L; Zondo, R P.
NOES - 45: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G;
Blaas, A; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da Camara, M L;
De Lille, P; Delport, J T; Ditshetelo, P H K;
Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B;
Gibson, D H M; Grobler, G A J; Groenewald, P J;
Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J; Le Roux, W; Lee, T D;
Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D;
Millen, T E; Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder,
P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E;
Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J
A; Seremane, J; Smuts, M; Southgate, R M; Steele,
M H; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Theron,
J L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
24 June 2003
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Vote No 16 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 17 - Labour - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr C R REDCLIFFE: Chairperson, the DA will not be
supporting this Vote.
The department states that its aim is to, and I
quote:
... play a significant role in reducing
unemployment, poverty and inequality through a
set of policies and programmes developed in
consultation with roleplayers aimed at improved
economic efficiency, productivity, skills
development and employment creation, sound labour
relations, eliminating inequality and
discrimination in the workplace, alleviating
poverty as well as unemployment, and the
protection and enhancement of worker rights and
benefits is also part of the aim.
24 June 2003
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As far as its intended aim of reducing
unemployment, this department has failed dismally.
Since 1994, approximately one million jobs have
been lost on their watch. The department has seen
increasing unemployment, which now stands at
approximately 7,6 million and close to 40% of the
economically active population. It seems they have
no strategy in place to reduce our unemployment
levels. The consequence is that poverty and
inequality is increasing day by day.
This department is not fulfilling its core mandate.
It is a serious indictment on the department and
the Minister.
The DA believes that skills development should
enjoy very high priority. The co-ordination of the
Sector Education Training Authority, Seta, is
supposed to ensure the effective and efficient
implementation of the Skills Development Strategy
at sector level. There is overwhelming evidence
that Setas are not working and should be scrapped.
They have become self-serving with exorbitant
salaries, equally big egos and with little or no
24 June 2003
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delivery. The Setas are accumulating huge bank
balances with no capacity to distribute the money
to perform their core function. I thank you.
Ms T E MILLEN: Chairperson, this time I will just
say that I will not be supporting this Vote and I
support the call for the division that will be
coming. I do not agree with the labour laws at all.
The sooner they go, the sooner we will have people
employed. Thank you.
Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, I am against this
Vote as well. [Laughter.]
As ons reeds 'n werkloosheidsyfer van 40% het,
Meneer, hoe kan ons sê dat die Departement van
Arbeid in sy doel slaag; veral as dié syfer steeds
styg? Verder is dit so dat arbeidswetgewing
ontwikkeling strem. Daar word voortdurend daarop
gewys. Die President het daarop in sy heel eerste
openingsrede gewys en daardie wetgewing word nie
aangespreek nie.
24 June 2003
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Die rigiditeit van die departement ten opsigte van
die stelsel van minimumlone bring verdere
werkloosheid mee. Dis nie ek wat so sê nie, dis die
Premier van die Noordelike Provinsie, mnr
Ramatlhodi, wat dit sê.
Wat betref die kwessie van regstellende aksie,
verlaat van ons beste mensemateriaal die land. Die
NA kan nie hierdie departement se begroting steun
nie. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraphs follows.)
[If we already have an unemployment figure of 40%,
Sir, how can we say that the Department of Labour
achieves its goal; especially if this figure keeps
rising? Furthermore, it is so that labour
legislation hampers development. This is constantly
being pointed out. The President indicated this in
his very first state of the nation address, and
that legislation is not being addressed.
The rigidity of the department regarding the system
of minimum wages causes further increases in
unemployment. It is not I who says so, it is the
24 June 2003
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Premier of the Northern Province, Mr Ramatlhodi,
who says that.
Regarding the issue of employment equity, our best
human material is leaving the country. The NA
cannot support this department's budget. I thank
you.]
Mr M S MANIE: Chairperson, the Labour Vote that
some parties are voting against today is about a
Vote that has dealt with some of the most
discriminatory laws and practices in our country.
Addressing the effect of the old apartheid laws
forms the core of the work of the Department of
Labour. So when parties vote against this Vote,
they vote against eradicating discrimination in the
workplace. [Interjections.] They vote against
raising the skills level in the labour market. They
vote against giving domestic workers and
farmworkers better working conditions. [Applause.]
What do they, who vote against this Vote, want?
[Interjections.] Do they want the top jobs in the
24 June 2003
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country to still be filled by white males?
[Interjections.] Do they want black people to
remain unskilled and only doing manual labour? Do
they want domestic workers and farmworkers to still
be paid and treated like slaves? If this is so,
then what they want is apartheid. [Interjections.]
We all know what the DA's policy about fight-back
is about. It is to fight blacks improving their
lives and to retain white privilege. This is racist
and yet they accuse us of playing the racist card.
[Interjections.] They don't care about finding
solutions to the problems of South Africa. They are
more obsessed with what is happening in Zimbabwe.
We support this Vote for a better life for all.
Viva ANC, Viva ! [Applause.] [Interjections.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 250: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R;
Arendse, J D; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B M N;
Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O; Benjamin, J;
24 June 2003
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Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P; Blaas, A;
Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G
W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J;
Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi,
N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lille, P; Diale,
L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Ditshetelo, P H
K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O; Douglas, B M; Du
Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z;
Erwin, A; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N B; FraserMoleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Geldenhuys, B L;
George, M E; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Gogotya,
N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen, A D; Gous, S J;
Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B;
Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B;
Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Jeebodh,
T; Joemat, R R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W;
Kasrils, R; Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q
J; Kgwele, L G; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W;
Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K;
Lekota, M G P; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T;
Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A
N; Mabandla, B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C;
Mabuyakhulu, V D; Mabuza, D D; Magashule, E S;
Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E; Magwanishe, G B;
24 June 2003
Page 120 of 252
Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S; Makasi, X C; Malahlela,
M J; Maloney, L; Malumise, M M; Manie, M S;
Manuel, T A; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I;
Martins, B A D; Masala, M M; Maserumule, F T;
Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T;
Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F; MatsepeCasaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M;
Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N
D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P;
Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A;
Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A; Mnumzana, S K;
Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R; Modisenyane, L J;
Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R; Mogoba, M S;
Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D;
Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi,
S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M;
Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Mothoagae, P K;
Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H
M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B;
Mthethwa, E N; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W;
Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J
H; Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J;
Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S;
Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L
24 June 2003
Page 121 of 252
V J; Ngema, M V; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G;
Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H;
Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T;
Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M
E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G
C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala,
M J; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R; Radebe, B A;
Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M;
Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M;
Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen,
M O; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E
(Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman,
E A; Schoeman, R S; September, C C; September, R
K; Shabalala, T; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P;
Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M;
Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J;
Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F;
Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Soloman, G; Sonjica, B P;
Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate, R M; Swart, S
N; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; TshabalalaMsimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M;
Van der Merwe, A S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van
Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever,
24 June 2003
Page 122 of 252
R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G;
Xulu, M; Zita, L; Zondo, R P.
NOES - 41: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G;
Blanché, S; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da Camara, M
L; Delport, J T; Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M
J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Grobler, G A J;
Groenewald, P J; Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J; Le
Roux, W; Lee, T D; Lowe, C M; Maluleke, D K;
McIntosh, G B D; Millen, T E; Moorcroft, E K;
Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S;
Opperman, S E; Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R;
Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A; Seremane, J; Smuts, M;
Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Theron, J
L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
Vote No 17 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 18 - Science and Technology - put and
agreed to.
Vote No 19 - Social Development - put.
Declarations of vote:
24 June 2003
Page 123 of 252
Mrs G M BORMAN: Chairperson, the DA will be
supporting this budget. [Interjections.] We welcome
the increases to the grants. We also welcome the
extension of the Child Support Grant, but we want
to see that extended immediately to children up to
fourteen years old. When the President announced
that this would be extended progressively, he
actually caused tremendous confusion out there.
The DA will again urge the Minister to introduce
the Basic Income Grant. The submissions made at the
Taylor Report hearings were overwhelmingly in
favour, and researchers who began their research
opposed to the BIG finished up saying that this was
the only way to go. It's the ANC-led Government
that is standing in the way of the Basic Income
Grant. [Interjections.]
Last Friday morning the first news bulletin on SAfm
carried the news that 500 pensioners had not been
paid in the Eastern Cape. On Sunday we read in the
Sunday Times of IDs being issued incorrectly again
and again, resulting in poor children not getting
24 June 2003
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their grants. This shambles gets worse instead of
better.
A few days earlier a woman died waiting in the
queue. In February two other people died waiting in
queues. How many more deaths will it take for the
ANC to take effective action? It's all very well
appointing task groups, monitoring groups and all
sorts of other talkshops to find out what is going
wrong. We know what is going wrong: People are not
doing their jobs properly, Minister, and they need
to be fired. Increasing budgets means absolutely
nothing, if those getting the money out to the
people for whom it is intended, don't in fact do
so.
HON MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! [Applause.]
Mr A Z A VAN JAARSVELD: Chairperson, we all know
that the hon Minister and the department are very
serious about taking care of the pensioners and
those people who are eligible for social grants.
[Interjections.] Yet the DA comes here today and
they make a big spiel. They use the sensitive issue
24 June 2003
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of people dying in queues for cheap political gain.
[Interjections.] We all know that there are
problems in the Eastern Cape with regard to those
people who've been contracted in.
The New NP supports the Budget Vote, yet at the
same time we believe that the Minister and his
department have to deal with agents that work on
behalf of the Government and tarnish the image of
this Government in terms of looking after its
people. We want to urge the Minister to launch a
thorough investigation into CPS specifically in the
Eastern Cape. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Chairperson, we know that the
greatest challenge the Government faces is to work
on the strategy of poverty alleviation while they
are at the same time trying to reduce the number of
people dependent on social development. One of the
basic problems, though, appears to be a lack of
adequate staffing and a lack of leadership
capacity.
24 June 2003
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The Auditor-General's report shows that the
Department of Social Development has a huge
personnel vacancy of between 20% to 41,8%. It is
unacceptable that a department that is responsible
for addressing the most basic needs of the people
is incapable of appointing personnel to do its
work.
There is also a problem regarding service delivery
and this must be improved. Let me also say to the
Minister that we definitely need an increase in the
number of social workers. There is a tremendous
need for them in the communities that we do serve.
Besides alleviating problems of poverty, people
also need properly equipped infrastructure to go to
when they experience social problems. It is very
sad to see how the state is letting our people
down. Social services are falling apart while what
is simply required is for the department to take
resolute steps to employ more people.
A better policy is needed at paypoint stations to
administer payouts. Long queues, as you have seen,
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Minister, have obviously resulted in deaths and so
forth. We want to see that at least Social
Development is proactive in alleviating those
problems, in fact, eradicating them. The long
queues should actually not be there. The ACDP
supports this Budget Vote, thank you.
Ms T E MILLEN: Thank you, Chairperson.
Notwithstanding the various concerns, including
those mentioned by the Official Opposition, the IAM
supports this Vote. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr E SALOOJEE: Mr Chairperson, first of all let me
just point out that the hypocrisy of the DA stinks
to the high heavens. [Interjections.] And I'll tell
you why. [Interjections.] Listen, I'll tell you
why. With the whole range of grants that we had,
just a short while ago we set up, in a very urgent
situation, a multiparty delegation to go and look
at how ID documents are provided as well as at the
problems with the payout companies. We spent a
whole week, in fact, with the recent events that
had occurred ... [Interjections.] ... Just give me
a chance ... [Interjections.] Not one of them
24 June 2003
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attended the portfolio committee meetings in which
we were discussing this. [Interjections.]
When we went on on-site visits, none of them went.
[Interjections.] They stand here and they become
passionate about it. They don't want to go there
and see the real suffering of the people and this
is not the fault of Social Development. It is
unfortunate that some of the payout companies are
not carrying out the mandate that they were given
and are not consistent with the contracts they
signed with the ANC. So for the DA to talk about
... [Interjections.] Why were they not able to
come? [Interjections.]
Now, at portfolio committee meetings too, it is in
Social Development that we deal with the issues of
the poor, the needy and the rural people who are
suffering. They send their weakest people there who
could not even understand the issues of social ...
[Laughter.] ... the weakest ones of them.
[Interjections.] They would sit there. Their
contribution to that debate is nil. In fact, what
24 June 2003
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they do there is to obstruct us. [Time expired.]
[Applause.]
Vote No 19 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 20 - Sport and Recreation South Africa put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr T D LEE: Chairperson ... [Interjections.]
Chairperson, in any other country sport would serve
a more noble cause. It would be a source of
inspiration. Through sport ordinary people could
aspire to great things. Most importantly, it would
serve to unite a nation behind a common goal.
Under the ANC, however, sport has become a source
of division and turmoil. Under the ANC sport seems
only to divide the people of this country.
[Interjections.] Under the ANC South African sport
has become a political tool in the hands of a small
elite.
24 June 2003
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The DA cannot and will not support this Budget
Vote, because, as in years before, money that
should be spent on development is wasted on an
already bloated bureaucracy. Money that should be
used for the betterment of sporting facilities and
training of the country's youth is instead
channelled into the national Sports Commission, an
organisation that simply reflects the duties of the
department itself.
The DA cannot support a budget that puts an
administrative gravy train ahead of the needs of
ordinary South Africans. [Interjections.] The DA
understands that sport does not belong to the ANC.
[Interjections.] The ANC understands that this
budget should be to the benefit of all South
Africans. Simply put, unlike the ANC, the DA says
that this budget should serve all our people. By
that we mean all South Africans. [Interjections.]
Dr C P MULDER: Mr Chairperson, during the apartheid
days it was said: ``You cannot have normal sport in
an abnormal society.'' Today, unfortunately, you
24 June 2003
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cannot have normal sport with abnormal interference
and quotas.
Die feit van die saak is, hierdie Minister en sy
departement het bewys dat Suid-Afrika eintlik nie
'n Minister van Sport nodig het nie. Die wyse
waarop sport verpolitiseer word, is tot niemand se
voordeel nie. Ons betaal elke dag die prys daarvan
en Suid-Afrika is moeg daarvoor. Ek stel voor ons
skaf die departement af, met Minister en al, en kry
eerder 'n departement vir werkskepping. Dankie.
[Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraph follows.)
[The fact of the matter is, this Minister and his
department has proven that South Africa does not
really need a Minister of Sport. The way in which
sport is politicised is advantageous for no-one. We
pay the price thereof every day and South Africa is
tired of this. I suggest that we do away with the
department, Minister and all, and rather have a
department for job creation. Thank you.
[Interjections.]
24 June 2003
Page 132 of 252
Ms T E MILLEN: Thank you, Chairperson. This is a
Vote that shouldn't even be a Vote. It is just
total nonsense and it is a total waste of money,
time and effort. [Interjections.] Just let
sportsmen get on with the job of playing for our
country, for all of us. [Interjections.] Thank you,
and I definitely will be supporting the call for a
division on this Vote. [Interjections.]
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, dit gaan nie
orals goed met Suid-Afrikaanse sport nie, en dit is
insiggewend dat dit met individuele sportsoorte
goed gaan, maar sleg met die spansportsoorte.
Waarom? Dit is by spansportsoorte wat die Regering
se groot inmenging, kwotastelsels en wat nog meer
in die prentjie kom. Hierdie departement is vir my
as't ware die toonbeeld en die simbool van die
sentralisme en totalitarisme waarmee die Regering
ongebreideld inmeng op elke lewensterrein.
(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairperson, South African sport
is not doing well in every respect and it is
illuminating that it is going well with individual
24 June 2003
Page 133 of 252
types of sport, but badly with team sports. Why? It
is in team sports that the Government's major
interference, quota systems and whatever else come
into the picture. This department, as it were, is
to me an example and a symbol of the centralism and
totalitarianism with which the Government
interferes unbridled in every walk of life.]
The NA's vote against this Budget Vote is a vote
against Big Brother in the South African society. I
thank you.
Ms M R BHENGU: Chairperson, we in the ANC support
this Budget Vote. The ANC Government's policy on
Sport and Recreation's theme of ``Getting the
nation to play,'' outlines the following
objectives, amongst others: To increase the level
of participation in sport and recreation; and to
maximise the probability of success in major
sports.
These stated objectives, which are key to our
transformation agenda, underpin the ANC Goverment's
24 June 2003
Page 134 of 252
policy of promoting sport representivity and
excellence in sport.
The UCB, in a document presented to its own 2002
consolidation conference, observed:
Sport cannot consider itself outside the
Government's political agenda, nor is it
independent of the Government's transformation
drive. Sport is no different to any other
institution, business, education, with respect to
transformation.
For effective transformation in sport to take
place within an acceptable time, Government will
have to play a leadership role in the
establishment of an overall transformation plan
for implementation by sport in general and
selected number of sporting codes in particular.
This demonstrates that sports federations are in
agreement with Government when it says
transformation, unity, redress and merit are an
24 June 2003
Page 135 of 252
integral part of dealing with the legacy of
apartheid and promoting the development of sport.
Unlike other political parties, the self-appointed
spokespersons for sports federations, who
misrepresent federations, the FA and the IAM, have
not attended a single meeting of the Portfolio
Committee on Sports and Recreation.
[Interjections.]
We are making progress and we will continue to work
for transformation in South Africa. The ANC
supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 248: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R;
Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B
M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O;
Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P;
Blaas, A; Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S;
Botha, N G W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M;
24 June 2003
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Chalmers, J; Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; ChohanKhota, F I; Cindi, N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H;
De Lille, P; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S
L; Ditshetelo, P H K; Dlali, D M; Dlamini, B O;
Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N M; Durand, J;
Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira, E T; Fihla, N
B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T;
Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A;
Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goosen, A D; Gous, S
J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B;
Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C; Herandien, C B;
Hlengwa, M W; Hogan, B A; Jeebodh, T; Joemat, R
R; Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasrils, R;
Kati, J Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele,
L G; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A;
Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M
G P; Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K;
Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabandla,
B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D;
Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E;
Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S;
Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L;
Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; MapisaNqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Masala, M
24 June 2003
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M; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N; Masithela, N
H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F; Matlanyane, H F;
Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matthews, V J G; Maunye,
M M; Mayatula, S M; Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M;
Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L R; Mdladlana, M M S;
Mentor, M P; Middleton, N S; Mkono, D G;
Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni, B A;
Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R;
Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R;
Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B; Mokoena, A D;
Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi,
S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V; Morobi, D M;
Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R; Mothoagae, P K;
Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H
M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B;
Mthethwa, E N; Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W;
Mufamadi, F S; Mzondeki, M J G; Nash, J H;
Ncinane, I Z; Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J;
Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S;
Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L
V J; Ngema, M V; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G;
Niemann, J J; Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela,
S H; Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J
T; Ntuli, M B; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers,
24 June 2003
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M E; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G
C; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G;
Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R; Radebe, B A; Radebe, J
T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin,
M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R;
Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen, M O;
Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E
(Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman,
E A; Schoeman, R S; Seeco, M A; September, C C;
September, R K; Shabalala, T; Shabangu, S;
Sibande, M P; Sibiya, M S M; Sigcau, S N;
Sigwela, E M; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N;
Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T;
Smith, P F; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Soloman, G;
Sonjica, B P; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Southgate,
R M; Swart, S N; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J;
Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshwete, P; Turok, B;
Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van Der Merwe, A S; Van
Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A; Van
Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S
C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Xulu, M; Zita, L;
Zondo, R P;
24 June 2003
Page 139 of 252
NOES - 41: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G;
Blanché, S; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da Camara, M
L; Delport, J T; Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M
J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Grobler, G A J;
Groenewald, P J; Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J; Le
Roux, W; Lee, T D; Leon, A J; Lowe, C M;
Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Millen, T E;
Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R
S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P; Redcliffe, C R;
Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A; Seremane, J; Smuts, M;
Steele, M H; Swart, P S; Taljaard, R; Theron, J
L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
Vote No 20 accordingly agreed to.
Vote No 21 - Correctional Services - put.
Declarations of vote:
Dr J T DELPORT: Mnr die Voorsitter, die witskrif
van die Departement van Korrektiewe Dienste sê die
volgende:
24 June 2003
Page 140 of 252
Ons glo dat oortreders die potensiaal het om
positiewe gedragsveranderings te ondergaan en as
wetsgehoorsame burgers te lewe. Ons doel is dus
om sodanige geleenthede, fasiliteite en dienste
te voorsien en aanhoudingstoestande te skep wat
rehabilitasie en ontwikkeling bevorder.
Die departement se verklaring van voorneme verwys
spesifiek na die volgende:
... die doeltreffende en veilige bewaking ter
beskerming van die gemeenskap, menswaardige
behandeling van oortreders ...
In hierdie opsig druip die departement die toets
hoofsaaklik
as
gevangenisse.
gevolg
Die
van
die
Departement
oorbesetting
van
van
Korrektiewe
Dienste respekteer en onderskryf die reg van elke
gevangene om aangehou te word onder omstandighede
wat hulle menswaardigheid eerbiedig.
Voorts respekteer die departement en onderskryf die
gevangene se reg tot kwaliteit gesondheidsorg.
24 June 2003
Page 141 of 252
In sy missiestelling sê die departement:
Die
werk
van
die
departement
is
mense-
georiënteerd en ons is dus daartoe verbind om 'n
kultuur van menseregte in elke faset van ons werk
uit te leef.
Die toestande in gevangenisse, primêr as gevolg van
oorbesetting,
maak
van
hierdie
ideaal
'n
bespotting. Die strafregstelsel dra 'n ontsaglike
verantwoordelikheid ten opsigte van die beskerming
van individuele regte in die besonder en menseregte
in
die
toets
algemeen.
van
slaag
die
nie
Die
departement
beskerming
die
toets
van
van
slaag
menseregte
die
nie
nie.
erkenning
die
Hy
van
menswaardigheid nie. Die departement slaag ook nie
die toets van korrektiewe optrede nie.
Die DA doen weer eens 'n ernstige beroep op die
Kabinet
om
die
toekenning
van
fondse
aan
die
departement opwaarts aan te pas sodat hy sy werk na
behore kan doen en die Grondwet se voorskrifte ten
opsigte
van
die
beskerming
van
menseregte
kan
uitvoer. Ons kan nie hierdie begrotingspos steun
24 June 2003
nie.
Page 142 of 252
[Tussenwerpsels.]
(Translation
of
Afrikaans
paragraphs follows.)
[Dr J T DELPORT: Mr Chairperson, the White Paper of
the Department of Correctional Services says the
following:
We believe that offenders have the potential to
undergo positive changes in behaviour and to live
as law-abiding citizens. Our aim therefore is to
provide
such
opportunities,
facilities
and
services and to create detention conditions which
would promote rehabilitation and development.
The department's declaration of intent refers to
the following specifically:
... the effective and safe guarding in protection
of the community, humane treatment of offenders
...
In
this
respect
the
department
fails
the
test
mainly as a result of the overcrowding of prisons.
The
department
of
correctional
services
respects
24 June 2003
Page 143 of 252
and endorses the right of every prisoner to be held
under circumstances which respects their dignity.
Furthermore, the department respects and endorses
the right of the prisoner to quality health care.
In its mission statement the department says the
following:
The work of the department is people-oriented and
we are therefore committed to living out the
culture of human rights in every facet of our
work.
The conditions in prisons, primarily as a result of
overcrowding, makes a mockery of this ideal. The
justice system carries an immense responsibility
with regards to the protection of individual rights
in particular and human rights in general. The
department does not pass the test with regard to
the protection of human rights. It does not pass
the test with regard to the acknowledgement of
human dignity. The department also does not pass
the test with regard to correctional action.
24 June 2003
Page 144 of 252
The DA is once again making an earnest appeal to
Cabinet to upwardly adjust the allocation of funds
to the department so that it can do its work
properly and to enable it to carry out the
provisions of the Constitution with regard to the
protection of human rights. We cannot support this
budget vote. [Interjections.]]
Mr S N SWART: Chairman, the ACDP will not support
this Budget Vote. [Interjections.] Whilst being
supportive of public-private partnerships, the ACDP
continues to share concerns that the Apops 25-year
contract will drain the department continuously.
The problem of overcrowding is further aggravated
by the fact that the PPS prisons may not be
overcrowded. We thus sit with two worlds in South
Africa: The very modern PPS prisons and the
appallingly overcrowded other state prisons. I have
no doubt that a constitutional challenge would
succeed on grounds of equality.
The Jali Commission also informed the committee
that the investigation into various prisons has
unearthed many cases of malpractice. There's
24 June 2003
Page 145 of 252
confirmation of widespread irregularities involving
prisoners leaving the premises illegally, nepotism,
drug trafficking, irregular appointments of
personnel and massive medical-aid fraud. The fact
that 25 members have been seconded from the special
investigation unit indicates the widespread nature
of offences and irregularities.
To be sentenced to a jail sentence today is often a
death sentence, in view of the high levels of
sodomy. I will never forget, when we were recently
in North End Prison - the hon Johnny de Lange and I
- we saw a child of 14 years old, and when we
looked at him he turned away and started crying.
When we asked him what was wrong, he said to me:
``Die kinders was stout met my gewees,'' and told
us that he had been sodomised. So the ACDP, in the
light of these circumstances, cannot support this
Budget Vote. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr J N MASHIMBYE: Mr Chairman, the responsibility
to govern South Africa will always remain the
responsibility of the ANC. [Interjections.] It is
appropriate that the ANC, in spite of our unwilling
24 June 2003
Page 146 of 252
partners and the unwilling citizens of our country,
that we proceed to do that which has been entrusted
to us by the majority of South Africans, and that
is to govern the Republic. We will not be deterred
by self-seeking individuals of no consequence who
represent their own jackets here in the
responsibilities we have. [Interjections.]
The Department of Correctional Services has
undergone numerous and different stages of
organisational change. This has impacted hugely on
the culture and workings of the department.
However, the primary function of the DCS has
remained the safe custody of offenders. The DCS
strives to provide adequate prison accommodation,
enriching rehabilitation programmes, humane
detention and treatment of offenders, reintegration
programmes for probationers and parolees, and
resource management that addresses all these
initiatives.
The most serious stumbling block in the way of the
institution of effective rehabilitation programmes
and provision of humane care and treatment of
24 June 2003
Page 147 of 252
offenders is overcrowding. Many are well acquainted
with the daily statistics in support of the
conditions of overcrowding. The budget for
rehabilitation increased by an average of 8,3%.
However, over the medium-term the growth of the
programme slowed down, owing to pressure on the
Vote of the rising prison population. As indicated
by the department, most of the increase is due to
administrative expenditure. This reflects the
department's determination to focus on putting
rehabilitation at the centre of its activities by
shifting funds to the rehabilitation of prisoners.
It is with great conviction that I'm able to offer
my support for this Vote and urge that the
integrated justice system places the overcrowding
of our prisons and the numbers of awaiting-trial
prisoners on their list of priorities. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, African
Christian Democratic Party, Federal Alliance and
Independent African Movement dissenting).
Vote No 22 - Defence - put.
24 June 2003
Page 148 of 252
Declarations of vote:
Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: Hon Chairperson, the 6%
increase in the Defence budget is being usurped by
the special defence account responsible for the
cost of the arms deal. A 9% increase in the
salaries of personnel and the repayment of the arms
deal, which has increased by approximately
R1 billion, have inflated the special defence
account to R8,8 billion, or approximately 44% of
the Defence budget. It is therefore clear that the
arms deal has been concluded at the cost of the
SANDF and not in aid of the SANDF.
This is a disparity between the funding of the
department and the required commitments requested
from the SANDF. Financial problems are being
foreseen with regards to the funding of the Hawk
fighter aircraft and, more particularly, the Gripen
fighter, on which Cabinet has to take a decision
soon. A review of the Defence Review is critically
needed. An exit mechanism for the approximately 15
000 troops who have to be replaced by young, fit
and healthy troops is urgently needed. The
24 June 2003
Page 149 of 252
deterioration of the personnel's health status
constitutes the biggest threat to the operational
effectiveness of the SANDF. The DA does not support
this Budget Vote. [Interjections.]
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Mnr die Voorsitter, om die
totale kommandostelsel in plek te hou kos
R110 miljoen per jaar. Oor die aankondiging dat
kommando's uitgefaseer gaan word, sê die VF die
besluit was ondeurdag, dis impulsief en dis
gebaseer op verkeerde feite.
Die kommando's word aangewend, nie net vir
landelike beveiliging nie, maar as daar 'n groot
sportgebeurtenis plaasvind, soos die Wêreldbekerkriekettoernooi, dan is die kommandolede goed
genoeg om hulle dienste te kom aanbied. Daar is nie
iets in die plek van die kommando's nie. Dis 'n
feit. [Tussenwerpsels.]
Toe die aankondiging gedoen is, was die lede in die
Weermag onkant gevang, die lede in die SA
Polisiediens was onkant gevang. Daar was nie 'n
plan in plek nie. Daar word nou daaraan gewerk, en
24 June 2003
Page 150 of 252
dit is 'n verdere bewys dat dit ondeurdag is.
[Tussenwerpsels.]
Verder wil ek ook meld dat die agb lid mev Thandi
Modise, die voorsitter van die portefeuljekomitee,
self haar kommer uitgespreek het omdat daar te min
fondse beskikbaar is vir interne verdediging in
Suid-Afrika. Die agb Minister het met sy begroting
aangekondig dat Afrika nou belangriker is as SuidAfrika. Die VF kan dit nie aanvaar nie, en die agb
Minister kan maar lag. Ek wil vir hom sê: Afrika
gaan sy ondergang wees. Die VF sal nie hierdie
begrotingspos steun nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]
(Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Mr Chairperson, it costs R110
million per year to keep the entire commando system
in place. With regard to the announcement that
commandos are to be phased out, the FF says that
the decision was ill-considered, it is impulsive
and it is based on inaccurate facts.
The commandos are utilised, not only for rural
safeguarding, but when a large sporting event takes
24 June 2003
Page 151 of 252
place, such as the Cricket World Cup; then the
commando members are so good as to offer their
services. There is nothing in place of the
commandos. That is a fact. [Interjections.]
When the announcement was made, the members in the
Defence Force were taken unawares, and the members
in the SA Police Service were taken unawares. There
was no plan in place. It is now being worked on,
and that is further evidence that this was illconsidered. [Interjections.]
Furthermore, I would also like to mention that the
hon member Mrs Thandi Modise, the chairperson of
the portfolio committee, expressed her concern
because there is inadequate funding available for
internal defence in South Africa. The hon Minister
announced in his budget that Africa is now more
important than South Africa. The FF cannot accept
this, and the hon Minister may laugh. I want to
tell him: Africa is going to be his downfall. The
FF will not support this Vote. [Interjections.]]
24 June 2003
Page 152 of 252
Ms T R MODISE: Mr Chairman, precisely because there
is no way you can achieve stability or the ideals
and aspirations of the African leaders in Africa
without making sure that the SA National Defence
Force is well trained and better equipped, that is
the reason why we stood here. Yes, I did complain
about the real-terms increase of the Defence
budget.
But because we are proud of the department and the
achievements thus far, we are proud of what we are
acquiring for the SA National Defence Force.
Because if we do not acquire that special defence
package, we will not have a defence force.
Therefore it is actually very myopic for members to
stand here and say because we are paying for the
defence package we are not supporting the
Department of Defence. It is myopic. It is myopic
because when we inherited the Air Force and the
Navy they were very badly equipped.
When you say that you want a credible and
professional defence force, you must be able to
pay. When you talk - and these hon members here
24 June 2003
Page 153 of 252
tell us about the situation in Zimbabwe - then you
must train to ensure that indeed you can tangibly
begin to contribute towards the rule of law, peace
and stability in the region and on the continent,
and therefore the ANC proudly supports this Budget
Vote. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, Freedom Front,
Federal Alliance and Independent African Movement
dissenting).
Vote No 23 - Independent Complaints Directorate put.
Declarations of vote:
Adv P S SWART: Chairperson, the DA supports this
Vote. As an independent, both investigative and
oversight body, the ICD plays an important, and
unfortunately, a much-needed role in society.
Two years ago the Portfolio Committee on Safety and
Security was informed by the ICD that, due to
budgetary constraints, they could only function
24 June 2003
Page 154 of 252
properly for the first eight months of the
financial year. They did, however, undertake,
despite Treasury's lack of sufficient funding, to
reorganise in such a way as to be able to fulfil
their obligations. And that they did. At the last
two budget briefings they indicated their
successes.
This year, with an increase of 11,6%, not much more
than inflation, they will also be toiling under an
additional burden, as the closure of the SAPS
anticorruption units is already resulting in them
having to deal with an ever-increasing number of
complaints of corruption against police members.
Our support for this Budget Vote is not an
indication of satisfaction with the amounts
allocated to them, but a tribute to the way they
proactively manage their budget and are able to
fulfil the very important function of ensuring that
the police, front runners in the fight against
crime, are not guilty themselves of crime.
24 June 2003
Page 155 of 252
Our congratulations to Advocate McKenzie and her
team for work well done. [Interjections.]
Mr M E GEORGE: Comrade Chairperson, I hope you will
save my minutes for when I respond later. We stand
to support the budget of the Independent Complaints
Directorate. Thank you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 24 - Justice and Constitutional Development
- put.
Mrs S M CAMERER: Thank you, Chairperson. Even
taking into account the positive developments, such
as the largest increase in funding since 1994, some
R747 million, the notoriously underresourced
Justice Department - and this has gone on for years
- is not coping with the burdens placed on it.
The DA cannot support the Vote, when ordinary
members of the public experience the courts as
painfully slow, inefficient and unfriendly to their
needs. Let me briefly unpack a few of the problems.
24 June 2003
Page 156 of 252
Firstly, the plight of victims is not being
addressed. Withdrawal of cases because of poor
performance by state prosecutors is no comfort to
the victims of those crimes.
There is still no victims' charter or victims
compensation fund, despite two years of promises
from the Department of Justice and although the
Criminal Asset Recovery Account already holds R27
million in assets forfeited to the state, which is
meant to assist victims of crime.
There is extremely low productivity in the courts,
which, after all, is the core business of the
department.The long awaiting-trial periods because
of the very slow pace of cases through the courts,
result in the clogging-up of prisons with some
sixty thousand trial-awaiting prisoners.
The
are
persistently
lower
conviction
rates
in
relation to rising crime rates, mainly because at
least half of all cases recorded by the National
Prosecuting Authority are withdrawn. Over
million cases were withdrawn last year.
half a
24 June 2003
Page 157 of 252
We also experience an extreme shortage of personnel
in the department. According to a new human
resource audit of the department produced by the
director-general's own office, the department is
underresourced, relatively underskilled and
therefore ill-prepared to fulfil its mandate.
The DA sees insufficient progress in this Budget
towards the goals of an efficient victim-friendly
court system and we therefore cannot support this
Vote. [Interjections.]
Mr S N SWART: Chairman, during the recent visit to
Port Elizabeth by the joint justice and
correctional services Committees, we were most
impressed by the willingness of all officials to
find solutions to prison overcrowding and court
backlogs. The integrated justice system approach,
as well as the pre-trial services project, will go
a long way in reducing the number of trial-awaiting
prisoners.
It is a pity, however, that these projects have
been shelved in certain other provinces, following
24 June 2003
Page 158 of 252
a cutback in donor funding. Our particular thanks
to Mr Kevin Hustler and Business Against Crime for
the success in these projects in the Eastern Cape.
The issue of maintenance, however, remains a severe
problem, experienced by many in our constituencies.
Maintenance is often the sole means of support for
many single parents. It is estimated that there
could be hundreds of thousands of fathers who do
not pay maintenance.
In Mitchells Plain it is estimated that only 5 000
of the 50 000 men who have maintenance orders
against them pay regularly. Notwithstanding the
very laudable attempts by the department, we
believe that there is still a long way to go in
this regard.
A further very serious issue relates to the
department's deposit account. It is disgraceful
that certain corrupt officials are robbing the
public by pocketing millions of rands deposited for
maintenance payments, bail money, fines and
deceased estates. The fact that the accounts of
24 June 2003
Page 159 of 252
many of the approximate 750 courts are in a state
of chaos, and that the amount of money that has
been misappropriated is, according to the chief
financial officer, at present, unknown but
significant, in his words, is that this is an issue
of great concern.
The state will be held liable to make compensation
for the losses that may run into many millions,
even possibly hundreds of millions of rands.
Although the department has made a lot of
significant progress in this regard, the ACDP will
unfortunately not be able to support this Budget
Vote. I thank you. [Interjections.]
Ms T E MILLEN: Thank you, Chairperson.
[Interjections.] The IAM supports the previous two
speakers and their sentiment and would like to add:
One thing that the Constitutional Court must do, is
have a Constitutional review to allow the enabling
of the death penalty to be reintroduced.
[Interjections.]
24 June 2003
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It is absolutely essential for us to restore law
and order in this mad situation that we have. And
for those who say that the death penalty is not a
deterrent, I would like to say: Has not having the
death penalty been a deterrent? Definitely not.
[Interjections.] Thank you. And I will
unfortunately not support this Vote.
[Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order!
Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Chairperson, the criminal
justice system faces many challenges, but we also
see significant improvements every single day
through the efforts of very dedicated people.
Government has, with this Vote, increased the
budget by almost R800 million, which gives the
fight against crime a significant boost. We do not
just put up posters in the streets.
By voting against this budget the DA displays
unashamed disdain for the most vulnerable in our
society namely the women and children and victims
of crime. By voting against this budget the DA
24 June 2003
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votes against the many hundreds of men and women
who go to work every single day and who make the
criminal justice system work. The ANC supports
those dedicated South Africans. The ANC cares about
victims of crime. The ANC therefore will
unconditionally support this budget Vote. Thank
you. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! On
what are you rising, hon member?
Mr N J GOGOTYA: I am rising on a point of order:
could the Leader of the Opposition, the hon Tony
Leon, could he please share with this House the
secret as to why he looks so happy and gay this
morning, when he is usually an angry young man?
[Laughter.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Order! That
is not a point of order, hon member. Order! Hon
members, can I put the Vote? Order! Order! Hon
members, order!
24 June 2003
Page 162 of 252
Mr K M ANDREW: Thank you Chair. Chair, that hon
member, the hon Mr Gogotya, continually within this
House takes points of order which he knows
perfectly well are not points of order; are in fact
buffoonery and have nothing to do with the
proceedings. I would like to ask you, Chair, with
respect, what the Chairs are going to do about
members who continually, during the course of
sessions, take points of order which they know very
well are not points of order? [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Andrew ...
order! Hon member, my response to the hon Gogotya
was that that was not a point of order and I ruled
it out. So, it is not a point of order and I would
appeal to members not to abuse points of order to
raise issues that are spurious. Order!
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance, African
Christian Democratic Party, IAM and FA dissenting).
Vote No 25 - Safety and Security - put.
Declarations of vote:
24 June 2003
Page 163 of 252
Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, the hon Minister
appears to be out. I hope he is out catching
criminals. He won't be surprised when I say that
the DA cannot support his policy or this Vote.
South Africa has a weak criminal justice system.
What we need is a strong and effective system.
Given our high crime rate, we need a criminal
justice system that works. It will only be seen to
work when the majority of criminals are arrested,
tried in a fair trial and, if convicted, then
subjected to punishment which society regards as
appropriate. The punishment must fit the crime.
Everywhere I go in South Africa I find that people
have
little
confidence
in
our
criminal
justice
system. People are desperate about the high levels
of
crime.
Some
are
now
resorting
to
vigilante
action and even to necklacing. There is only one
reason for that: a belief that the police will not
or cannot act. South Africa can't afford to go back
along that road.
Hiding the crime statistics from the people does
not help. Our people are not fools and they do not
24 June 2003
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believe that you have crime under control. We say
that the way to get it under control is to have
150 000 policemen on the streets where we live.
[Interjections.] Every police station must be fully
manned with fully trained and fully equipped
policemen. We can then hold them to agreed service
standards, reward those who deserve rewarding and
punish those who deserve to be punished.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon Gibson,
please take your seat.
Prof B TUROK: Chairperson, on a point of order:
There is a rule in our Rules which is against
repetition. We have heard this comment many many
times. [Interjections.] I ask you to rule it out.
[Interjections]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon member,
that's not a point of order.
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on point of order: The
hon Andrew has just asked you to make some kind of
ruling or to do something about these frivolous
24 June 2003
Page 165 of 252
points of order that Mr Gogotya is guilty of and so
is Mr Turok. [Interjections.] We urge you, sir, to
do something about it. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order, Hon Ellis!
Please continue, Mr Gibson.
Mr D H M GIBSON: Chairperson, the DA, whether Prof
Turok likes it or not, will continue telling the
people of South Africa that you don't have crime
under control and that until you start applying
decent and proper policies you will not get crime
under control. [Interjections.] Even if you are
sick of hearing it, the people outside are not sick
of hearing it because they agree with us.
[Interjections.] Everywhere I go they say that the
ANC is not doing its stuff in fighting crime.
[Interjections.] They beg us to do something to
help rid this country of this scourge.
[Interjections.] Mr Turok might not like it and the
Minister, certainly, doesn't like it and the rest
of the ANC members don't like it but South Africa
doesn't like crime. [Interjections.] [Time
expired.]
24 June 2003
Page 166 of 252
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! Hon members,
can I have some order in the House. I cannot
recognise the Deputy Chief Whip until I have order
in the House.
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair,
just on a point of information: The Minister of
Safety and Security is in fact in the NCOP where he
is busy with a debate there.
The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, Deputy
Chief Whip. Hon members, that was a very noisy
session. We do encourage a lively debate and are
happy with it, but I think that it was a lot more
than what should have been witnessed there.
Mrs R M SOUTHGATE: Mr Chairman, the ACDP will not
support this Budget Vote as it will not result in
the reduction of high crime levels, ensure higher
conviction rates or result in a better quality of
life for our communities. The ACDP urges Government
to make crime eradication their priority in
practice and not just on paper, so that the lawabiding taxpayers will get value for their money.
24 June 2003
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The confusion brought by section-49 legislation is
unacceptable and the budget does not address the
increased need for education and training or give
an acknowledgement to the gravity of the situation.
The statistics released by the Independent
Complaints Directorate that show that police
corruption had increased by more than 100% in a
year are worrying. Throwing more money at a corrupt
police service without dealing harshly with the
offenders will result in greater amounts of
squandered taxpayers' money.
Government must stop talking about stabilising
crime in the so-called hotspots and start
eradicating crime from all our communities. Our
streets must be made safer for all South African
citizens. It is the Government and not the
community that must take responsibility for acting
against the criminal element, or they will bear the
consequences of their failure do so at the election
poll. I thank you.
24 June 2003
Page 168 of 252
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, die agb
Adjunkpresident het by 'n geleentheid gesê, en hy
het ook hier in dié Huis gesê, dat dit misdadigers
is wat misbruik maak van die Grondwet van SuidAfrika, totdat hulle in die moeilikheid is. Dan
beroep hulle hul op die goeie dinge van die
Grondwet. Die werklikheid is: As die
adjunkpresident van die land alreeds so ver gaan om
sulke woorde te uiter, dan gee dit eintlik 'n
aanduiding van die omvang van misdaad in SuidAfrika.
Die agb Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit se
werk is om te verseker dat misdaad afneem in SuidAfrika. Die agb Minister kom elke keer en dan sê hy
dat misdaad afneem. As ons met die mense daar buite
praat, dan sê hulle nie net dat misdaad toeneem
nie, maar dat hulle misdaad beleef. As 'n ondersoek
bevind dat 80% van motorkapings in 'n mens se oprit
plaasvind, dan is dit 'n bose dag in ons land. Ons
kan maar die syfers gaan vergelyk.
Ek wil ook kom by plaasmoorde. Ek het namens die VF
'n jaar gelede vir die agb Minister 'n vraag gevra
24 June 2003
Page 169 of 252
en hy het 'n jaar gelede al gesê dat die oorsaak en
die motiewe vir plaasmoorde bekend is. Maar die agb
Minister wag meer as 'n jaar om daardie motiewe en
oorsake bekend te maak. Die VF vra: Waarom? Die agb
Minister het gesê daar is bevind dat dit gewone
misdadigheid is en roof is die motief daarvoor. Die
VF kan dit nie aanvaar nie. Ons wag vir die
verslag, dan sal ons behoorlik daarop reageer, maar
ek sê vandag vir u dat wat die VF betref, is dit 'n
misleiding van die mense van Suid-Afrika oor
plaasmoorde en dit kan nie toegelaat word. Die VF
sal nie die begrotingspos ondersteun nie. [Tyd
verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans speech
follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, the hon Deputy
President said on one occasion, and has also said
here in this House, that criminals misuse the
Constitution of South Africa, until they are in
trouble. They then invoke the good things in the
Constitution. The reality is: If the Deputy
President of the country is already going so far as
to say such things, it actually gives an indication
of the extent of crime in South Africa.
24 June 2003
Page 170 of 252
The job of the hon Minister for Safety and Security
is to ensure that crime decreases in South Africa.
The hon the Minister comes and says that crime is
decreasing every time. If we talk to the people out
there, they say that not only is crime increasing,
but they are experiencing crime. When an
investigation finds that 80% of car hijackings take
place in one's driveway, it is a dark day in our
country. We can compare the figures.
I also want to refer to farm murders. A year ago I
asked the Minister a question on behalf of the FF
and a year ago already he said that the cause and
the motives for farm murders were known. But the
hon Minister waited for more than a year to make
those motives and causes known. The FF asks: Why?
The hon Minister said that it was found that this
is common criminality and that theft is the motive
for it. The FF cannot accept this. We are waiting
for the report and we will then respond to it
properly, but I will tell you today that as far as
the FF is concerned, the people of South Africa are
being misled with regard to farm murders and it
24 June 2003
Page 171 of 252
cannot be allowed. The FF will not support the
Vote. [Time expired.]]
Ms T E MILLEN: Chairperson, the IAM
[Interjections.] cannot support this Vote and, by
the way, to call it Safety and Security is probably
one of the biggest misnomers of any Ministry. It
should be the Ministry of danger and insecurity
because that is what we are all suffering from in
this country. So, I will not support this Vote and
I will be one of those calling for a division.
Thank you.
Mr C AUCAMP: Hon Chairperson, the day the Minister
of Safety and Security gets excited if he can say
that the statistics of crime have stabilised, then
the writing will be on the wall.
Misdaadstatistiek in Suid-Afrika wys dat ons in
sekere gevalle die grootste misdaadsyfer ter wêreld
het. Ons vra steeds die vraag hoekom die Minister
die gegewens nie wil bekend maak nie.
[Tussenwerpsels.] Daar is te veel `` hit and run
crackdowns'' en te min ``Bobby on the beat''. En
24 June 2003
Page 172 of 252
nou kan ek aan u voorspel dat die ANC gaan sê: Ons
is teen die veiligheidsmagte, ons is teen ons
polisiemanne; maar ek wil vir u noem dat ons
hierdie beleid nie kan ondersteun nie. Die
kommissaris het gesê dat plaasmoorde afneem, maar
gee nie vir ons die statistiese gegewens nie. Hy
wil hê ons moet hom glo, sonder 'n enkele syfer.
Dis nie wat ons op die veld ervaar nie. Die
Nasionale Aksie kan hierdie begrotingspos
ongelukkig nie ondersteun nie. (Translation of
Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Crime statistics in South Africa show that we, in
certain instances, have the highest crime rate in
the world. We still ask the question why the
Minister does not want to publish the data.
[Interjections.] There are too many ``hit and run
crackdowns'' and too few ``Bobbies on the beat''.
And now I can predict to you that the ANC will say
``We are against the safety forces, we are against
our police force'', but I want to say that we
cannot support this policy. The commissioner said
that farm murders are on the decrease, but he does
not give us the statistical data. He wants us to
24 June 2003
Page 173 of 252
believe him without a single figure. That is not
what we experience on the ground. The National
Action can unfortunately not support this Budget
Vote.]
Mr M E GEORGE: Comrade Chairperson, we support the
budget. The 11% increase, we believe, will go a
long way in the fight against crime.
The fight against crime is one of the most
challenging aspects of our country. Although we
said previously that we have managed to turn the
tide against crime, we want to emphasise the fact
that there is still a lot to be done, as the level
of crime still remains unacceptably high. I must
quickly add that the situation is under control.
Crime is continuously being stabilised. There is no
crisis in the country. [Interjections.] There is no
chaotic situation, as others would like us to
believe. The police are doing their work and are
arresting criminals.
We proudly acknowledge that the more efficient, coordinated interdepartmental approach to crime
24 June 2003
Page 174 of 252
prevention and combating has meant more successes
in stabilising crime. Successes include the 16 days
of activism on nonviolence against women and
children in 2002 by the JPCS cluster. Operations
Tsipa, Sethunya and the recent Operation Tswikila
continue to succeed in stabilising organised crime,
confiscating stolen vehicles and destroying
redundant and illegal firearms. Despite a high rate
of crime syndicates and gangsters, the murder rate
continues to go down as well. From the year 2000 to
2003 these operations led to more than half a
million arrests, more than 15 000 confiscation of
stolen vehicles and the destruction of more than
100 000 stolen and redundant firearms.
I appeal - and I will make this appeal every day,
especially to the DA - that we must unite against
crime instead of using it for electioneering.
Nobody is going to believe you. I heard Mr Gibson
saying some people believe him. I don't know who
are the people that he was talking about but I know
that you will see it next year that the people do
not believe you. [Applause.] [Time expired.]
24 June 2003
Page 175 of 252
Division demanded.
The House divided:
AYES - 249: Abrahams, T; Abram, S; Ainslie, A R;
Arendse, J D; Asmal, A K; Bakker, D M; Balfour, B
M N; Baloyi, M R; Baloyi, S F; Bapela, O;
Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Biyela, B P;
Bloem, D V; Bogopane, H I; Booi, M S; Botha, N G
W; Buthelezi, M G; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J;
Chiba, L; Chikane, M M; Chohan-Khota, F I; Cindi,
N V; Cwele, S C; Davies, R H; De Lille, P; Diale,
L N; Didiza, A T; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M;
Dlamini, B O; Douglas, B M; Du Toit, D C; Duma, N
M; Durand, J; Dyani, M M Z; Erwin, A; Ferreira, E
T; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C
T; Geldenhuys, B L; George, M E; Gerber, P A;
Gillwald, C E; Gogotya, N J; Goniwe, M T; Goosen,
A D; Gous, S J; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M;
Gxowa, N B; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P A C;
Herandien, C B; Hlaneki, C J; Hlengwa, M W;
Hogan, B A; Jassat, E E; Jeebodh, T; Joemat, R R;
Jordan, Z P; Kannemeyer, B W; Kasrils, R; Kati, J
Z; Kgarimetsa, J J; Kgauwe, Q J; Kgwele, L G;
24 June 2003
Page 176 of 252
Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal,
Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekota, M G P;
Lobe, M C; Lockey, D; Louw, J T; Louw, S K;
Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Mabandla,
B S; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, V D;
Magashule, E S; Magazi, M N; Magubane, N E;
Magwanishe, G B; Mahomed, F; Maimane, D S;
Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloney, L;
Malumise, M M; Manie, M S; Manuel, T A; MapisaNqakula, N N; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Masala, M
M; Maseka, J T; Maserumule, F T; Mashimbye, J N;
Masithela, N H; Masutha, M T; Mathibela, N F;
Matlanyane, H F; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F;
Matthews, V J G; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M;
Maziya, M A; Mbadi, L M; Mbombo, N D; Mbuyazi, L
R; Mdladlana, M M S; Mentor, M P; Mfundisi, I S;
Mkono, D G; Mlangeni, A; Mngomezulu, G P; Mnguni,
B A; Mnumzana, S K; Moatshe, M S; Modise, T R;
Modisenyane, L J; Moeketse, K M; Mofokeng, T R;
Mogoba, M S; Mohamed, I J; Mohlala, R J B;
Mokoena, A D; Molebatsi, M A; Moloi, J; Moloto, K
A; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Moosa, M V;
Morobi, D M; Moropa, R M; Morutoa, M R;
Mothoagae, P K; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D;
24 June 2003
Page 177 of 252
Mpahlwa, M B; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M;
Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N;
Mtsweni, N S; Mudau, N W; Mufamadi, F S;
Mzondeki, M J G; Nair, B; Nash, J H; Ndou, R S;
Ndzanga, R A; Nefolovhodwe, P J; Nel, A C; Nene,
N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E;
Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngema,
M V; Ngubeni, J M; Nhlengethwa, D G; Niemann, J
J; Njobe, M A A; Nqodi, S B; Ntombela, S H;
Ntshulana-Bhengu, N R; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, J T;
Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, S N; Olckers, M E; Olifant,
D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G
H; Pahad, E G; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J;
Phohlela, S; Pieterse, R D; Pillay, R; Radebe, B
A; Radebe, J T; Rajbally, S; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M
M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C M P; Rasmeni, S M;
Reid, L R R; Rhoda, R T; Ripinga, S S; Robertsen,
M O; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E
(Cassim); Schippers, J; Schneeman, G D; Schoeman,
E A; Schoeman, R S; Seeco, M A; September, C C;
September, R K; Shabalala, T; Shabangu, S;
Sibande, M P; Sigcau, S N; Sigwela, E M;
Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J;
Skhosana, W M; Skweyiya, Z S T; Smith, P F;
24 June 2003
Page 178 of 252
Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Soloman, G; Sonjica, B P;
Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Tarr, M A; Tinto, B;
Tolo, L J; Tshabalala-Msimang, M E; Tshwete, P;
Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van der Merwe, A
S; Van Jaarsveld, A Z A; Van Wyk, A; Van Wyk, A;
Van Wyk, J F; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der
Merwe, S C; Vezi, T E; Woods, G G; Zita, L;
Zondo, R P.
NOES - 45: Andrew, K M; Aucamp, C; Bell, B G;
Blaas, A; Blanché, S; Borman, G; Camerer, S; Da
Camara, M L; Doman, W; Eglin, C W; Ellis, M J;
Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Grobler, G
A J; Groenewald, P J; Kalyan, S; Koornhof, N J;
Le Roux, W; Lee, T D; Leon, A J; Lowe, C M;
Maluleke, D K; McIntosh, G B D; Millen, T E;
Moorcroft, E K; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel,
A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P;
Redcliffe, C R; Schalkwyk, P; Semple, J A;
Seremane, J; Smuts, M; Southgate, R M; Steele, M
H; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Taljaard, R; Theron, J
L; Van Deventer, F; Waters, M.
Vote No 25 accordingly agreed to.
24 June 2003
Page 179 of 252
Vote No 26- Agriculture- put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr S B FARROW: Hon Chairperson, the DA will support
both this Vote and Vote 30. According to the
strategic plan of South African agriculture,
primary agriculture accounts for 4,5% of the GDP,
whilst the agro-food complexes account for another
9%. There are approximately 50 000 large commercial
farmers who employ about a million workers or 11%
of the total formal employment in South Africa.
In effect, commercial farms provide livelihoods and
housing for approximately 6 million family members.
In addition to these farmers, there are also 240
000 small farmers, who also provide more than a
million livelihoods for their family members and
employment to another 500 000 people. These small
farmers supply locally and regional markets where
large numbers of informal traders make a living.
Furthermore, there are an estimated 3 million
farmers in communal areas who produce food,
24 June 2003
Page 180 of 252
primarily to meet their families' needs. It is
therefore no wonder that about 40% of the country's
total population is primarily dependent on
agriculture and related industries. It is therefore
critical that the Department of Agriculture
continues to support and grow the agricultural
sector, if we are to remain self-sufficient in food
and fibre whilst generating marketable surpluses to
meet both regional and export demands.
Key to success is the need for agricultural
research, effective and efficient support and
delivery services, safety and security on our farms
and land-tenure reform, particularly for those new
entrants coming into the agricultural sector. The
Department needs to reprioritise its budgets to
meet these challenges because we do not need to end
up like Zimbabwe.
Adequate funds must be made available for
agriculture and land purchases, as was demonstrated
by the protest outside Parliament today. The 2003
Budget has yet to take the bull by the horns in
24 June 2003
Page 181 of 252
implementing the strategic plans, vision and for
... [Time expired.]
Mong N H MASITHELA: Motsamaisi wa mosebetsi. Ntate
Farrow ka mokgwa oo a buileng ka teng, ha ho na
kamoo mokgatlo wa ANC o ke keng wa dumellana le
yena. Mokgatlo wa ANC ha o na boikitlaetso ba ho
hanana le tlhahiso ena e hlahisitsweng kajeno.
Ditekanyetso tsena tsa kajeno, di bontsha hore
mokgatlo wa ANC o ikemiseditse ka matsapa ohle ho
etsa bonnete ba hore o fedisa boqitolo, tlala le
bofuma. Ke kahoo re reng bohle ba buileng, le bohle
ba ikamahanyang le ditekanyetso tsena, ba bontsha
hore tlala e nyele.
Ke ka motsotso ona re bontshang baahi ba Aforika
Borwa ka bophara, re kopang le bana ba sokang ba
ikopela ditjhelete le ditshebediso tsa temo, hore
ba etse jwalo hobane, `kwekwe ya morao e tloha le
sepolo'. Mmuso ona wa ANC o hlokometse hore batho
ba batsho ha ba na tjhelete. Ke kahoo o reng bohle
ba batlang ho ba le dipolasi, ele batho ba batsho,
ba hle ba ipotlakele ba ikopanye le Lefapha la tsa
Temo. Hobane re re moketa ho tsoswa o itekang.
24 June 2003
Page 182 of 252
Modulaletulo, hobane tsena tse builweng mona ha ho
na mokgatlo o hananang le tsona, e re ke behe taba
tsa ka mohatla kgwiti, hobane kgomo ha e nye
bolokwe kaofela. Mokgatlo wa ANC o tsamaisana le
ditekanyetso tsena. Ke a leboha. (Translation of
Sesotho speech follows.)
[Mr N H MASITHELA: Chairperson, there is no way
that the ANC cannot agree with Mr Farrow, because
of the way he spoke. The ANC does not have the will
to disagree with this input. Today's budget shows
that the ANC is determined to do away with
dishonesty, starvation and poverty. That is why we
say that everybody who has spoken here and
everybody who agrees with this budget is showing
that starvation will be done away with.
Right now we are out to show the citizens of South
Africa. We also urge those who have not yet asked
for funds and agricultural instruments to do so,
because he who wastes time will be left behind. The
ANC Government has realised that black people do
not have money. That is why the Government says
that everybody who is black and wants to own a farm
24 June 2003
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should hurry up and get in touch with the
Department of Agriculture, because only those who
make an effort will be helped.
Chairperson, as there is no party that disagrees
with what has been said here, let me be very brief
as one can never say it all. The ANC supports this
budget. Thank you.]
Vote agreed to.
Vote No 27 - Communications - put.
Declarations of vote:
Ms M SMUTS: Madam Speaker, this is the first year
that I can remember that we have not called for a
division on Communications. We will simply object
because the hon Minister has announced a policy
overhaul in line with the DA's proposals on
technological neutrality and the separate
regulation of transmission and content in the age
of convergance. If we helped to force the DOC's
hand, then that is some reward for the long hours
24 June 2003
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of work we put into a policy field which so
fascinates us. However, the policy overhaul has to
be fundamental. It must not only benefit the staterun companies.
Gardner Data Quest has made an interesting
assertion about South Africa. It says that we are
Western in our ways, but Eastern in our aim. We are
caught in a cultural warp. Like China, Gardner
argues, our Government has, until now, addressed
teledensity through social legislation, and I
quote:
A firm governmental grip on stakeholdership, in
what it considers its infrastructure, allowing
only tightly controlled entry by private
investment.
The description, in my view, is devastatingly apt.
The point, however, is that South Africa's
consumers have spoken and expressed their
preferences. They go for the Western model. They
are South Africa's voters too. At the moment, we
have a Government which still wants to control the
24 June 2003
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industry, but the private sector is better at
running it. It is time for the Government to leave
it to the experts. We look forward to the policy
conferences designated for July and we also look
forward to appropriate policy change.
Mr M K LEKGORO: Madam Speaker, for those of us
whose life experiences have been to communicate
with our families, who include uncles and cousins
in rural areas through letter writing only, the
roll-out of telephones to these areas has brought
much-needed relief. Our loved ones are now so far,
but yet so near. Within seconds one is able to
determine how they are, who is not feeling well,
who has passed away and who is getting married.
If one has not gone through the pain of exchanging
this information only through letter writing, one
is likely to take this great change in our lives
for granted. To us the tide has turned for a better
life.
Once more, Telkom's maiden results after listing
have vindicated the ANC-led Government who believes
that managed liberalisation of state assets is a
24 June 2003
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sound approach, as opposed to the populist approach
of the opposition of wholesale privatisation. The
listing of Telkom affords previously disadvantaged
communities the opportunity to partake in the
telecommunication sector.
Lastly, we are sure that the South African Post
Office is on its way to sound financial and human
resource management. Their breakthrough in
corruption in the institution is a good account in
this regard. From a subsidy of more than R600
million, it has now halved it to R300 million. It
is our hope that as they improve, the remaining
deficit will disappear. We support Vote no 27.
[Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and African
Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
Vote No 28 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism put and agreed to.
Vote No 29 - Housing - put and agreed to (African
Christian Democratic Party dissenting).
24 June 2003
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Vote No 30 - Land Affairs - put and agreed to
(National Action dissenting).
Vote No 31 - Minerals and Energy - put and agreed
to.
Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry - put.
Declaration of vote:
Mr C M LOWE: Madam Deputy Speaker, the DA will not
support this Vote. The Department of Trade and
Industry should be the engine room for economic
growth and development policies and initiatives in
South Africa. It should be the driving force behind
the Government with a bold vision and radical plan
to stimulate growth and create jobs that will see
South Africans everywhere enjoying a rising
standard of living and an expanding economy.
Instead, after ten years of ANC Incorporated, we
have over one million jobs lost and 40% of our
people unemployed; instead of broad-based black
economic empowerment that achieves what its title
24 June 2003
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implies, we have allegations and evidence of
cronyism, nepotism and shady oil deals; instead of
creating new wealth and rapidly expanding the
economic path to include those left behind by
apartheid, we see the transfer of existing
infrastructure and capital to a well-connected
elite that leaves ordinary black South Africans
just as marginalised and disadvantaged as ever they
were.
The DTI, under the policies of the ANC Inc, has got
it all wrong. South Africa cannot afford political
correctness, let alone nepotism or cronyism,
wabenzi-opportunism at the expense of competence
and efficiency and fairness. If that happens, South
Africans everywhere will pay the price and the
jobless queues will simply grow longer.
Ms T E MILLEN: Madam Deputy Speaker, the greatest
concern of the IAM is the proliferation of
gambling, which falls under this department's Vote,
and, in particular, the recent installation of the
LPOs or low-pay-out operations in rural areas. The
sight of a lady on television last night operating
24 June 2003
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one of these machines, saying that she hoped to win
`maybe R40, so that she could buy some food', is a
shocking indictment on the placement of these
machines among the most vulnerable and impoverished
in our country. Similar commendable statements
decrying the situation were expressed by the hon
Minister of Social Development on the same
programme. Thank you, hon Minister.
I opposed gambling with regard particularly to its
social effects on society while an IFP MPP in
KwaZulu-Natal, much to the chagrin of the premier
during this debate in 2001. The IAM still opposes
gambling for the same reasons and will not be
supporting this Vote for that reason alone.
Dr R H DAVIES: Madam Deputy Speaker, during the
Budget Vote debate on trade and industry we were
able to report to the House that there was steady
progress in the DTI's stewardship of the R2,5
billion entrusted to it by the House; there has
been a substantial reduction in underspending to
the extent that it is no longer a significant
problem for this department; there is a greater
24 June 2003
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alignment of budgetary priorities to organisational
categories in the department and significant
progress in ensuring that measurable indicators,
related to the priorities of promoting economic
growth and development, empowerment and equity, are
actually achieved.
Mr Lowe raised a number of spurious points and I
don't think that there is any basis on which Mr
Lowe's charges can be sustained. There is no
indication that there is any condoning of cronyism
and nepotism in the department. Where instances are
backed up by solid evidence, they are normally
investigated and investigated to significant
effect.
What Mr Lowe is doing is that he is objecting, he
should note, to an increased allocation which is
equivalent to 52% per annum increase since 1999 to
promote black economic empowerment, which he claims
to support. He is also objecting to programmes
which are projected to leverage in R14,5 billion
worth of investment for small, medium and
microenterprise development and for strategic
24 June 2003
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investments which are capable of creating 32 000
new jobs and sustaining 88 000 jobs.
Ms Millen of the IAM appears to be ignorant of the
fact that the ANC/NNP-coalition government in the
Western Cape is taking a strong stand against the
roll-out of the limited-pay-up machines, which has
the full support of the Portfolio Committee on
Trade and Industry, and this I think is an
indication of the pro-poor stance which the
ANC/NNP-coalition government in the Western Cape is
taking. The ANC will, of course, support Budget
Vote 32. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent
African Movement dissenting).
Vote No 33 - Transport - put.
Declarations of vote:
Mr S B FARROW: Madam Deputy Speaker, the acting
Minister of Transport doesn't deserve this. The
Department of Transport against falls short of
meeting its priority. Consistent underfunding and
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improper use of funding mechanisms through the fuel
levy has resulted in the backlog of R63 billion in
our road maintenance programmes alone.
The department has finally recognised the problem
with the Government's road funding policies. In its
latest draft policy on the funding of road networks
it admits that while the fuel levy is intended to
fund the maintenance of our roads, it has been used
increasingly
by
the
Government
to
finance
other
needs like health and education.
The DA has consistently called for the fuel levy
maintenance
fund
to
be
ringfenced
and
allocated
proportionally to provinces on a conditional basis.
The lack of adequate funding has forced SANRA to go
for the unpopular route of tolling, and in the eyes
of many motorists this amounts to double taxation.
Our railway infrastructure and rolling stock
suffers from a similar backlog that impacts on
safety. The taxi industry, our biggest public
transporter, is still suffering from lack of clear
direction as to how it will be subsidised and the
24 June 2003
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recap scheme has not yet been rolled out. Meanwhile
the average age of the fleet and the
unroadworthiness of some vehicles have contributed
to poor levels of service and safety.
Congestions, inefficiencies and lack of proper
maintenance of our ports has resulted in delays in
most of our ports and the lost of credibility by
shipping lines.
The Arrive Alive campaign funding is in jeopardy
with a technically insolvent RAF, unable to provide
monetary support and unable to meet its strategic
objectives. Coupled with this is a major shortfall
in funds to implement the Road Traffic Management
Corporation, which forms part of vital legislation
to unite all national, provincial and local road
safety authorities to eliminate the current
fragmentation and address the shortfalls of over 8
000 police in our country.
The department's ability to manage and deliver on a
seemless and efficient aviation, maritime and road
service fall short of strategic objects and the
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budget does little to integrate and financially
support these services. The DA therefore has no
alternative but to object to this budget, and I
hope the Minister of Finance takes note of this.
This is the fourth time that I have asked him to
put more money in the transport Vote. [Applause.]
Mr
G
D
transport
for
SCHNEEMANN:
budget
the
Madam
provides
maintenance
Deputy
for
Speaker,
increased
and
the
spending
development
of
infrastructure and for the provision of affordable
public transport. The ANC welcomes the department's
focus
on
the
provision
of
safe
and
affordable
public transport to those in our country with the
greatest need, namely the poorest of the poor. In
particular,
refurbishment
this
includes
of
railcoaches
funding
for
and
continued
the
the
upgrading and expansion of our road network, with
specific focus on the upgrading of rural roads.
The ANC welcomes and applauds the work being
undertaken by the South African Maritime Safety
Authority amongst the fishing community, equipping
them with much-needed safety training for when they
24 June 2003
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are out at sea. We in the ANC look forward to the
rolling out of the Taxi Recapitalisation Programme
and the implementation of the roads traffic
operations policy.
I just want to say to Mr Farrow: you obviously
don't sit in the same portfolio committee that I
do. Because if you sat there and listened you would
hear about the increase in funding that has taken
place in the department.
By objecting to this vote the DA says it does not
care about the poorest of the poor ...
[Interjections.] ... and wish them to remain
without access to affordable, safe and reliable
transport. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank
you. [Applause.]
Vote agreed to (Democratic Alliance and Independent
African Movement dissenting).
Vote 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry - put and
agreed to.
24 June 2003
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Question put: That the Schedule be agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
NOMINATION OF MR B NAIR
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam
Deputy Speaker, I move without notice: That the
House elects Mr Billy Nair to preside during
today's sitting of the House when requested to do
so by a presiding officer.
Agreed to.
APPROPRIATION BILL
(Second Reading debate)
Mr N M NENE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker and hon
members, I would also like to take this opportunity
to congratulate comrade Billy on his appointment to
the Chair.
24 June 2003
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When the majority of the people of South Africa
voted the ANC into power, it was mainly because of
our track record of standing our ground, no matter
what the challenges were. One of the biggest
challenges we faced was an ailing economy that we
inherited from the apartheid regime. A huge budget
deficit, rising unemployment, double-digit
inflation, skewed distribution of income and land;
and also the total exclusion of the vast majority
of our people from the economy and a decent social
life.
The government of the people is addressing all
these problems. We therefore have serious steady
economic growth, a reduced budget deficit,
inflation is under control and the majority of our
people are beginning to share in the country's
wealth.
Over the past nine years the ANC Government has
laid a solid foundation upon which a better life
for all has steadily been realised. During the
Budget Votes we have heard how much the departments
have done to improve the lives of our people,
24 June 2003
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following the programmes the ANC has developed and
the tough choices we have had to make in order to
address the challenges that I have alluded to.
Our economic policies have given us the platform
and leverage to be where we are today. Today we are
in a position that allows us to give effect to the
developmental programme through increased spending
in the areas that matter most to be able to push
back the frontiers of poverty. The expansion of the
Public Works programme, increased spending on
health, and education with a particular emphasis on
primary health and improving adult illiteracy and
skills development are indicative of a caring ANC
Government.
The budget process has undergone tremendous
transformation itself. With the introduction of the
Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, the new
budgeting format, including the introduction of the
estimates of expenditure that require departments
to outline their measurable objectives, and the
estimates of national expenditure and also the
establishment of the joint budget committee, that
24 June 2003
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monitors expenditure on a regular basis, ensures
compliance with the Public Finance Management Act.
This has placed us in a position that allows
Government and Parliament to interact more
meaningfully with the Budget.
The joint budget committee's first report has since
been tabled in Parliament last week and we are
going to engage in a very robust debate that will
see our recommendations being implemented. These
are all steps taken in the name of delivery of
services to our people to improve their lives and
push back the frontiers of poverty.
The DA has clearly demonstrated their opposition to
transformation by voting against spending money on
health, spending money on education, provincial and
local government, sports and recreation, safety and
security and two other Votes which are in the
Presidency. Their argument on all the mentioned
Budget Votes is nothing more than the same argument
that was advanced by the previous government and
caused the problems we are addressing.
24 June 2003
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So, listening to them will take us back to where we
come from and that we have worked so hard to break
away from. When the ANC fights for a better life,
the DA fights back. When the ANC wants every child
to get an education, the DA fights back. When the
ANC appropriates money for health for all South
Africans, the DA fights back. When the ANC
allocates money to provinces and local government
for the provision of free basic services, the DA
fights back. When the ANC allocates money to safety
and security to employ and train a realistic number
of personnel, the DA fights back with a call for
150 000 untrained and ill-equipped police on the
streets. The same applies to sports and recreation.
For as long as the DA exists as custodians of
apartheid and the ``swart gevaar'' [Black danger.],
our people will never be free.
In supporting this Appropriation Bill, the ANC
continues to lead the war against poverty and
deprivation and I assure our people that we will
never give up. We owe it to the masses of this
country that continue to support us. I thank you,
Chairperson.
24 June 2003
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Ms R TALJAARD: Thank you, Chairperson, as we debate
the Appropriation Bill today it is clear that South
Africa confronts three key challenges: Unemployment
in excess of 30%, alarming levels of crime, the
devastating economic, social and human consequences
of the HIV/Aids tragedy unfolding in every corner
of South Africa every day. While this Budget has
marketed itself under the slogan of ``the right
thing to do'', there are a number of areas in which
we continue to do the wrong thing.
The naysayers would continue to berate those who
say South Africa's labour market inflexibility
continues to be an aggravating factor in hampering
job creation. However, even in the former doyens of
corporatism, such as Germany and the highly
protected labour markets of that country, they have
had to revise their position in the context of
sluggish growth, persistent unemployment and the
strictures of the growth and stability pact.
German Chancellor, Gerhard Schroder, had to take in
very difficult political times for his Social
Democratic Party some clear, courageous and bold
24 June 2003
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steps to alleviate the current problems in the
labour market in Germany and institute long-overdue
structural reform.
Only in South Africa can a Growth and Development
Summit, that excludes the item of labour market
flexibility completely from the agenda, be regarded
as a success. This is not an argument about rolling
back workers' rights in toto. It is about being in
touch with reality and making pragmatic policy
choices that reflect that reality, not policy
choices that reflect artificial political marriages
of convenience on the eve of the 2004 election.
In respect of the fight against crime and HIV/Aids,
it is clear that Government has its priorities
inverted. Any government that can afford to
purchase additional maritime helicopters and
increase the already costly bill of the strategic
defence procurement, with arrogant disregard for
any accountability for the controversial decisions
taken in the flawed procurement process, itself has
its priorities inverted.
24 June 2003
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Any government willing to incur an addition
R212 million foreign loan liability from Societe
Generale for a Corvette combat suite that is touted
to be a mere subcontractor in the budget review,
clearly has its priorities inverted. It is a
government with very strange priorities indeed. It
is a government that needs to be reminded that the
wars against crime, poverty, joblessness and HIV
can never be fought or won decisively and
convincingly with Corvettes, Hawks, Gripen,
submarines or light-utility helicopters.
When the Minister of Finance tabled the Budget in
this House in February, it was rightly criticised
for falling short in announcing the much-awaited
costing for an HIV/Aids National Treatment Roll-out
Plan. A mere R3,3 billion was allocated in the
Budget to this end over the MTF period.
To answer the criticism, the Minister and officials
were quick to point out that the comprehensive
costing study would be released in April. When the
study was released it was clear that National
Treasury had given the plan a cautious thumbs up.
24 June 2003
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As the Director-General of Finance told the finance
committee during its deliberations on the strategic
plan of the National Treasury, Cabinet will now
deliberate on this costing plan.
We must ask, as we adopt this Budget today: What
has happened to the HIV/Aids costing plan thus far?
Will it dwell in the labyrinths of Cabinet
obfuscation, never to be seen or heard of again?
The Minister of Finance and the National Treasury
have a particular and specific duty to the people
of South Africa to spearhead the affordability
study for a national HIV/Aids antiretroviral
treatment roll-out through this Cabinet. They
control the purse strings and they must lobby for
the affordability study, even if Dr No or any
higher authority may wish to obfuscate any further
or say, no.
Not only is Government's credibility on this matter
yet again at stake but its compliance with an order
of the Constitutional Court may very well be in
doubt as well. While there is such a thing as
collective Cabinet responsibility, Minister Manuel,
24 June 2003
Page 205 of 252
in this regard a very special responsibilty does
rest on your shoulders to act as an advocate for
this affordability plan. I thank you.
Dr G G WOODS: Thank you, Chairperson.
[Interjections.] Thanks, Minister, I thought you
were getting at me. Our approach is not going to be
to get into the specifics we engaged at the time
the 2003 Budget came out, but rather to reflect
back on the debates on the various Votes that have
gone through this House in recent weeks. I think
having supported the spending framework which
accompanied the 2003 Budget, we have looked forward
to the Ministers presenting their budgets to the
House. I think in this situation we would like to
acknowledge that Ministers have in general this
year shown increased purpose and focus. We can
attribute this largely to the new formalised
strategic planning which has taken place in the
departments, and also the fact that we are now
looking towards issues such as measurable
objectives, as were given birth to through the
PFMA.
24 June 2003
Page 206 of 252
But it is in this regard important for us to
restate certain misgivings regarding the
insufficiency of particular tools and expertise
necessary to fully achieve the Budget intentions
which the members of the Executive have expressed
over the course of these Votes. And, firstly, on
the issue of tools again, I think of the yet-to-beintroduced performance budgeting system, which the
PFMA intends as the means through which to achieve
improved value-for-money spending; and on the
expertise side, of the serious shortage of levels
of financial management ability and knowledge of
course necessary to meet the high aims of the PFMA.
And here again we must urge the Ministers of
Finance and Public Service and Administration to
keep up their efforts in these areas of concern.
I would like to take the unusual step of reflecting
on Parliament's performance in the debates that
have preceded today's event. And hereto I think the
quality of debate of members has shown too that we
also suffered from the lack of tools. I think the
oversight measures, which are still going to
introduce the performance budgeting system of the
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PFMA, will offer us some in the time to come.
Another issue was the lack of participation in the
Budget formulation process and the long-outstanding
Money Bills amendment powers, which the House
wants.
But the hon Nene has referred to this, I
think, under his chairmanship of the new Budget
Committee. We should take that issue forward. But
beyond that I would just like to remind the House
that we do support the Budget and this
Appropriation Bill. Thank you very much.
Mnr A BLAAS: Mnr die Voorsitter, hierdie begroting
fokus op armoedeverligting; sonder enige twyfel
huidig die hoogste prioriteit hier in Suid-Afrika.
Dit word gedoen binne die beperkings van die
begroting deur groei te stimuleer, werkskepping aan
te moedig en deur beleggings in programme wat
dienslewering aan armes verskaf. Binne hierdie
raamwerk kan daar heelwaarskynlik klemverskuiwings
wees.
Die ACDP sou 'n groter klem wou sien op insette wat
groei kon stimuleer en mense vinniger onafhanklik
maak van die staat, weliswaar ten koste van sommige
24 June 2003
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van die beoogde diensleweringsprogramme.
Prioriteite sou verskuif word na onder meer groter
ondersteuning aan mikro-, klein en medium
ondernemings en die vestiging van insentiewe vir
nuwe nywerhede terwyl die beoogde
vaardigheidsontwikkelingsprojekte en die
ondersteuning aan onderwys en opleiding behou word.
Meer buigsaamheid in arbeidswetgewing sou ook
noodsaaklike aandag geniet.
Binne hierdie beperkings sal die ACDP hierdie
wetsontwerp steun. Dankie. (Translation of
Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr A BLAAS: Mr Chairperson, this budget focuses on
poverty alleviation; without a doubt currently the
highest priority here in South Africa. This is done
within the limitations of the budget by stimulating
growth, encouraging job creation and by investment
in programmes that supply service delivery to the
indigent. Within this framework there could most
likely be shifts in emphasis.
24 June 2003
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The ACDP would have liked to see greater emphasis
on inputs that can stimulate growth and make people
independent of the state more quickly, admittedly
at the expense of some of the envisaged service
delivery programmes. Priorities would be shifted
to, inter alia, more support to micro, small and
medium enterprises and the establishment of
incentives for new industries while the envisaged
skills development programmes and support of
education and training is retained. More
flexibility in labour legislation would also enjoy
the necessary attention.
Within these limitations the ACDP will support this
legislation. Thank you.]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Acting Deputy Chair, after much
debate we return to debate the Appropriation Bill.
The MF has been most pleased with the debate
concerning the Budget Votes. Debates have clearly
deposited the House stance and commitment to
utilising and dispensing funds wisely to benefit
all South Africans. As in our debate in March
concerning the Appropriation Bill, the MF continues
24 June 2003
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to voice its support of funds appropriated to
various spheres according to need. The substantial
appropriation for safety and security of 16,38%
deposits our nation's commitment to stamping out
crime. The MF, however, hopes that the necessary
role-players shall now ensure that funds are
utilised adequately to meet our ends efficiently.
The MF supports the Appropriation Bill.
The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr B Nair): The next
speaker is the hon Cassie Aucamp, but I believe he
was busy with a TV interview.
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter ...
Die MINISTER VAN FINANSIES: Hy maak 'n las van
homself!
Mnr C AUCAMP: Mnr die Voorsitter, dit word laat. Ek
sal nie 'n las van myself maak nie. Die NA steun
hierdie begrotingswetsontwerp. Ek dank u.
[Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans
paragraphs follows.)
24 June 2003
Page 211 of 252
[Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairman ...
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: He is making a nuisance of
himself!
Mr C AUCAMP: Mr Chairman, it is getting late. I
will not make a nuisance of myself. The NA supports
this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Interjections.]]
Ms N S MTSWENI: Ndabezitha [Honourable]
Chairperson, I realise that as we draw to an end of
this session hon members are tired. However, we
have in front of us various budgets that we need to
vote on today. Everyone of them has a strong
element of transformation and they have made a real
difference in the lives of our people. This Budget
has responded to the challenge of pushing back the
frontiers of poverty and expanding access to a
better life for all.
This Budget, colleagues, is not an accounting
system. We are talking about an allocation
exercise, spending it properly and in such a way
that ordinary people feel the benefits. The Budget
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is the most important policy instrument we have in
order to improve the lives of our people. And
indeed if we reflect today on where we are and
where we come from we say with pride that much has
changed in our country and millions of our people
have started feeling the benefits of the caring
Government that is committed to dealing with
poverty. That is what the Government of the ANC is
all about and that is what is reflected in the
Budget that we are dealing with today.
The good news is that, through managing our economy
responsibly and through good economic policies, we
are able to increasingly translate our policies
into practical programmes that benefit the poor.
Even with the best policies in the world, we would
not make a difference, unless we have the resources
to implement them and that is the next piece of
good news. It is not only this year that we are
able to spend on the poor of the poorest in our
country, but this increases year-after-year for the
full Medium-Term Expenditure period. We are
confident that it will continue beyond this threeyear period.
24 June 2003
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We are now poised, more than ever before, to
transform our country and to tackle the problems of
poverty and equality head-on. I would like to share
with you some real examples on social security: The
Unemployment Insurance Fund, which has and will
continue to bring back the dignity of our domestic
workers; the child support grant currently
accessible to children until the age of seven years
old has been extended to children of 14 years. This
will be implemented in phases, which means that
those who are seven years and eight years old will
access the grant in 2003/2004 and those who are
nine and ten years in 2004/2005 and those who are
11, 12, 13 and 14 years old, will access it in
2005/2006. This will improve the standard of living
of the poorest children and will be an effective
weapon in pushing back the frontiers of poverty.
This Budget has brought a better life to our elders
and the disabled people of our country. The
majority of our elders had their pensions paid out
once in three months while others were entitled to
a monthly pension. At this present time our elders
and the disabled get their pensions every month.
24 June 2003
Page 214 of 252
This pro-poor Budget continues to make sure that
the food relief grant is designed to minimise the
negative impact of high food prices on povertystricken individuals, households and vulnerable
communities. The Budget has further increased
support for home-based care for our people with
HIV/Aids.
All of the above have a positive impact on the
women of South Africa. I am happy because they are
aware that this change is there because of the ANC
Government. In my constituency where I am deployed
...
Kua Bakgatleng ba Moshe, Ba Mokgoko, ba Chaane le
kua ... [At the Bakgatleng clan of Moshe, Mokgoko,
chaane and ... ]
... emaNdebeleni ka Ndzundza, Litho, Ndzundza
Pungutjhe. [... in Ndebele areas of Ndzundza,
Litho, Nazundza Pungutjhe.]
Ba bone development e kgolokgol ba re ke leboge mo
Governmenteng ya ANC. [They gained a lot of
24 June 2003
Page 215 of 252
development and they said I must thank the ANC-led
Government.]
In the short space of time that we have had as the
ANC ...
Amatjhuguluko
abekhona,
nangifika
lapha
besinesibhedlela sinye lapho abantu bekhethu gade
baya
khona,
iindlela
babhadale
ezide,
bebadinwe,
iimali
bafike
balambe,
ezinengi,
bajame
babuyele
bakhamba
imijeje
emakhaya
emide
balambile
sele bagula okwesibili kanti balatjhiwe.
Okhunye
okwenzekileko,
iinkolo
nangifika
lapha
bezingacaleki, njenga nje iinkolo zoke zilungisiwe
Mbuso we ANC, kukhona nezinye ezitja ezakhiweko.
Kanti
kukhona
abantwana
amabala
bethu
wemidlalo
bakwazi
amabili,
ukuzithokozisa
lapho
khona,
kukhona godu ne-Multi Purpose Centre. Koke lokhu
kwenziwe
Mbuso
we
ANC.
Kulapho
ngisebenza
khona
angikhulumi ngendawo yoke yeMpumalanga, ngikhuluma
nje
ngendawo
lapho
mina
ngithunyelwe
yi-ANC
eMoretele Two, kilapho lamatjhuguluko enzeke khona.
Kanti
akusizo
kwaphela
lezi
engikhuluma
ngazo
24 June 2003
Page 216 of 252
zinengi
ezikhona
engingazibala
ilanga.
(Translation
of
kuze
isiNdebele
kutjhinge
paragraphs
follows.)
[Changes have taken place since my arrival at that
place. Previously we had only one hospital where
our people went for consultations, paid a lot of
money, had to walk long distances and wait in long
queues
until
they
were
tired
and
hungry.
They
returned home hungry and sick, although they just
been cured of other illnesses.
When I arrived there, schools were in a state of
disrepair. By now all schools have been repaired by
the ANC Government; in other areas new schools have
been built. And there are two stadiums where our
children can entertain themselves. There is also a
multipurpose centre. All these have been delivered
by the ANC Government. I am only talking about the
place
where
I
work,
not
about
the
whole
of
Mpumalanga. I am talking about the place where I am
deployed by the ANC, at Moretele Two. This is where
these changes have taken place. These are not the
24 June 2003
Page 217 of 252
only changes. If I start counting them all, I will
talk the sun sets.]
We have also provided water, housing, electricity
and roads for our people.
Abantu bekhethu abasakhambi amabanga amade, niyazi
bonyana
abomma
Makufuneka
kufuneka
ngibo
kube
azi
abathwala
nokudla
bonyana
lomthwalo
phezu
kuba
khulu.
kwetafula
namanzi
kubanayo
umma
yoke
into. Manje uMbuso we ANC ulethe zoke lezinto eduze
kwabantu
people
Members
bethu
no
khona
longer
know
bazozithola
have
that
to
mothers
walk
bear
ngobuduze.
long
the
[Our
distances.
hardship
the
most. When there needs to be food on the table, the
mother makes sure that there is water and all other
things.
The
ANC
Government
has
brought
all
this
closer to the people.]
When
I
see
these
things
happening
especially
to
children who go to these schools, I see smiles on
their faces, joy and happiness, confidence and hope
for their future in education. This is what this
Budget has done. The Government of the ANC will
24 June 2003
continue
better
to
the
Page 218 of 252
transform
the
education
of
education
an
African
system
and
child
in
particular. With all this happening, I feel proud
to be a member of the ANC and proud to stand up in
this House and support this Budget Vote. I thank
you, ndabezitha! [honourable!]
The
DEPUTY
CHAIRPERSON
OF
COMMITTEES:
Wena
Wendlovu! [Your Highness!]
The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Chairperson and
hon
members.
Congratulations
to
you,
Ndabezitha.
It's good to see you sitting in the Chair up there.
Chairperson, this debate brings to an end four
months of intense discussion - clearly the heart
and soul of political oversight, of Parliament, but
an opportunity that we must give ourselves in the
course of this debate to reflect on where we are. I
think it's important, in this context, to say that
the process of budget reform that has taken place
in this country over the past nine years places us
in a position where, truly, we have empowered this
Parliament in its oversight function. Each year the
24 June 2003
Page 219 of 252
changes have been significant. The introduction of
the Estimates of National Expenditure last year
and, this year, the introduction of measurable
objectives place this Parliament in a position
where every member has a responsibility through a
portfolio committee, but also through this plenary
discussion, and a position in respect of an
oversight function. That becomes important.
Now, when one looks back - and I want to be quite
blunt about this - at the debate in the portfolio
committees, what for me has been a bit of a tragedy
has been the absence of focus on the measurable
objectives. It's there, it's published, it's part
of a contract that the executive has with
Parliament, but the living out of that function one
hasn't seen. I think that it's important that we
continue to focus on that interface between
Parliament and the executive.
But there is something Parliament cannot do, and
therefore, with great respect to members like the
hon Taljaard, I won't respond to the fact that
sometimes some members of Parliament would like to
24 June 2003
Page 220 of 252
see themselves in the position of the executive.
The policy choices will remain those of the
executive. We'll go to the hustings later this
year, we'll go to the polls next year, we go to the
electorate so that they can decide who exercises
the options in respect of the Budget. That is
correct, and that is what this Government will not
give away. [Applause.] We implement our policies
through the Budget, and I'm sure that while some
parties in this House have no ambition to be
anything other than opposition, somewhere in the
back of their heads they too understand very
clearly that you win the right to implement the
Budget. [Interjections.] There's no automaticity,
and this Government's not about to give away the
rights that we've won in shaping democracy.
[Interjections.] Despite what Mike Ellis, or the
hon Ellis, might feel, it's not going to be like
that. He knows it, I know it, all of South Africa
knows it. It's not going to be like that.
So let's leave aside the policy issues. Let's focus
on Parliament's role, and here, Chairperson, with
the greatest respect, I think that we must say to
24 June 2003
Page 221 of 252
Parliament, as the hon Woods did, that we must
continue to work at empowering Parliament to ensure
that the oversight function is lived out. The
Budget committee now makes a very substantial
difference. I want to express my appreciation to
the hon Nene for the work that they are doing in
respect of the reports. The Budget committee now
analyses those reports on in-year spending which
are published in terms of section 32 of the Public
Finance Management Act, and they're doing a very
solid job. They are able to demonstrate where
there's underspending and where there's the risk of
overspending. I'd like to encourage the
chairpersons and members of all portfolio
committees to avail themselves of the opportunity
not only to debate Budget issues once a year when a
department appears before the portfolio committee,
but, in the course of the year, to use the reports
generated within the parliamentary system by the
Budget committee as a means for taking those
discussions forward. The commitments we've made,
each one of us, in our Estimates of National
Expenditure, the measurable objectives we've
24 June 2003
Page 222 of 252
stated, and Parliament has the right to know
whether we're living out those responsibilities.
So, in expressing appreciation for these debates
that have happened, in being bold enough to draw
attention to the deficiencies in the way in which
there's been a lack of focus on the measurable
objectives, I want to invite Parliament, in the
spirit and interests of democracy, to take forward
what is published, to appreciate the work that is
being done by the Budget committee and to ensure
that Parliament can live out its oversight role,
not after the horse has bolted, but in here. Thank
you very much. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
The House adjourned at 17:55.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
24 June 2003
Page 223 of 252
FRIDAY, 20 JUNE 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
National Assembly and National Council of
Provinces:
1.
Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging
Mechanism:
(1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 19
June 2003 in terms of Joint Rule 160(4),
classified the following Bill as a section
76 Bill:
(i) National Road Traffic Amendment Bill [B
31 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec
76).
National Assembly:
1.
Referrals to committees of tabled papers:
(1) The following paper has been tabled and is
now referred to the following Portfolio
24 June 2003
Page 224 of 252
Committees. The committees must confer and
the Joint Monitoring Committee on
Improvement of Quality of Life and Status
of Women to report.
(a) Defence;
(b) Safety and Security;
(c) Justice and Constitutional Development;
(d) Health;
(e) Social Development; and
(f) Joint Monitoring Committee on
Improvement of Quality of Life and
Status of Women.
Report of the Independent Experts'
Assessment on Women, War and Peace.
(2) The following paper is referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Labour:
24 June 2003
Page 225 of 252
Preliminary Annual Report of the Department
of Labour for 2002-2003 [RP 44-2003].
(3) The following paper is referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Agriculture and Land
Affairs:
Report of the Commission on Restitution of
Land Rights for 2002-2003 [RP 48-2003].
(4) The following papers are referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security:
(a) Strategic Plan of the Independent
Complaints Directorate for 2003-2006
[RP 40-2003].
(b) Planning Information for the South
African Police Service for 2003-2004
[RP 42-2003].
(5) The following papers are referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Justice and
Constitutional Development:
24 June 2003
Page 226 of 252
(a) Government Notice No R 663 published in
Government Gazette No 24867 dated 16
May 2003: Code of Conduct for Debt
Collectors made in terms of section
14(b) of the Debt Collectors Act, 1998
(Act No 114 of 1998).
(b) Strategic Plan of the South African
Human Rights Commission for 2003-2006.
(6) The following paper is referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Justice and
Constitutional Development. The Report of
the Auditor-General is referred to the
Standing Committee on Public Accounts for
consideration and report:
Report and Financial Statements of the
South African Human Rights Commission for
2001-2002, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements
for 2001-2002.
24 June 2003
Page 227 of 252
(7) The following paper is referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Transport:
Strategic Plan of the Department of
Transport for 2003-2004.
(8) The following papers are referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Public Service and
Administration:
(a) Strategic Plan of the Public Service
Commission for 2003-2006.
(b) Medium Term Strategic Plan of the
Department of Public Service and
Administration for 2003-2006.
(9) The following papers are referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and
Forestry for consideration and report:
(a) Southern African Development Community
Protocol on Forestry, tabled in terms
24 June 2003
Page 228 of 252
of section 231(2) of the Constitution,
1996.
(b) Explanatory Memorandum to the Southern
African Development Community Protocol
on Forestry.
(10)
The following paper is referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and
Forestry:
Government Notice No R. 665 published in
Government Gazette No 24870 dated 16 May
2003: Fire Protection Regulations, made in
terms of section 20(2) of the National Veld
and Forest Fire Act, 1998 (Act No 101 of
1998).
(11)
The following paper is referred to the
Joint Monitoring Committee on the
Improvement of Quality of Life and Status
of Children, Youth and Disabled Persons:
24 June 2003
Page 229 of 252
Petition from the National Youth Assembly
presented to the Speaker of the National
Assembly and the Chairperson of the
National Council of Provinces.
(12)
The following papers are referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Finance:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the
Sasria for 2002.
(b) Government Notice No 631 published in
Government Gazette No 24845 dated 16
May 2003: Borrowing powers of Water
Boards listed under Schedule 3, Part B
of the Public Finance Management Act,
1999 (Act No 1 of 1999).
(c) Proclamation No R 34 published in
Government Gazette No 24772 dated 17
April 2003: Commencement of the
Division of Revenue Act, 2003 (Act No 7
of 2003).
24 June 2003
(13)
Page 230 of 252
The following paper is referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Provincial and Local
Government:
Strategic Plan for the Department of
Provincial and Local Government for 20032006.
(14)
The following papers are referred to the
Portfolio Committee on Arts, Culture,
Science and Technology. The Report of the
Auditor-General is referred to the Standing
Committee on Public Accounts for
consideration and report:
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the
Foundation for Education, Science and
Technology, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial
Statements for the period 1 April 2002
to 30 November 2002 [RP 38-2003].
24 June 2003
Page 231 of 252
(b) Report and Financial Statements of the
South African Geographical Names
Council for 2001-2002.
TABLINGS:
National Assembly and National Council of
Provinces:
Papers:
1.
The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:
(a) Water Tribunal Manual published in
Government Gazette No 24626 dated 28 March
2003: Manual for the purposes of section 14
of the Promotion of Access to Information
Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of 2000).
(b) Government Notice No 568 published in
Government Gazette No 24794 dated 2 May
2003: Transformation of the Citrusdal
Irrigation Board, Magisterial District of
Clanwilliam, Western Cape Province, into
24 June 2003
Page 232 of 252
the Citrusdal Water User Association, Water
Management Area Number 17, Western Cape
Province, in terms of the National Water
Act, 1998 (Act No 36 of 1998).
(c) Government Notice No 715 published in
Government Gazette No 24920 dated 6 June
2003: Prohibition on the making of fires in
the open air, the destruction by burning of
slash and clearing or maintenance of fire
belts by burning and the execution of
blockburns: Districts of (A) Ermelo,
Eerstehoek, Carolina and Waterval-Boven;
(B) Piet Retief and Wakkerstroom, in terms
of the Forest Act, 1984 (Act No 122 of
1984).
(d) Government Notice No 716 published in
Government Gazette No 24920 dated 6 June
2003: Prohibition on the making of fires in
the open air, the destruction by burning of
slash and clearing or maintenance of fire
belts by burning and the execution of
blockburns: Districts of Nelspruit, White
24 June 2003
Page 233 of 252
River, Pilgrim's Rest, Lydenburg, Belfast,
Waterval-Boven, Carolina and Barberton, in
terms of the Forest Act, 1984 (Act No 122
of 1984).
(e) Government Notice No 717 published in
Government Gazette No 24920 dated 6 June
2003: Prohibition on the making of fires in
the open air, the destruction by burning of
ground cover, including slash, the clearing
or maintenance of a fire belt by burning or
the execution of blockburns: KwaZulu-Natal,
in terms of the Forest Act, 1984 (Act No
122 of 1984).
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
National Assembly:
1.
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Defence on
the
Anti-Personnel
Mines
Prohibition
Bill
[B
44B - 2002] (National Assembly - sec 75), dated
20 June 2003:
24 June 2003
Page 234 of 252
The Portfolio Committee on Defence, having
considered the Anti-Personnel Mines
Prohibition Bill [B 44B - 2002] (National
Assembly - sec 75) and proposed amendments
of the National Council of Provinces
(Announcements, Tablings and Committee
Reports, 3 June 2003, p 535), referred to
the Committee, reports the Bill with
amendments [B 44C - 2002].
2.
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice
and Constitutional Development on the Treaty
between the Republic of South Africa and the
People's Republic of China on Mutual Legal
Assistance in Criminal Matters, dated 20 June
2003:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and
Constitutional Development, having
considered the request for approval by
Parliament of the Treaty between the
Republic of South Africa and the People's
Republic of China on Mutual Legal
Assistance in Criminal Matters, referred to
24 June 2003
Page 235 of 252
it, recommends that the House, in terms of
section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve
the said Treaty.
Request to be considered.
3.
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Transport
on the National Road Traffic Amendment Bill [B
31 - 2003] (National Assembly - sec 76), dated
18 June 2003:
The
Portfolio
having
Committee
considered
the
on
Transport,
subject
of
the
National Road Traffic Amendment Bill [B 31
-
2003]
(National
Assembly
-
sec
76),
referred to it and classified by the Joint
Tagging
Mechanism
as
a
section
76
Bill,
reports the Bill with amendments [B 31A 2003].
MONDAY, 23 JUNE 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
24 June 2003
Page 236 of 252
National Assembly and National Council of
Provinces:
1.
Classification
of
Bills
by
Joint
Tagging
Mechanism:
(1) The
Joint
Tagging
Mechanism
(JTM)
on
19
June 2003 in terms of Joint Rule 160(3),
classified the following Bills as section
75 Bills:
(i)
Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment
Bill [B 27 - 2003] (National Assembly
- sec 75).
(ii) Firearms Control Amendment Bill [B 28
- 2003] (National Assembly - sec 75).
(2) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 19
June 2003 in terms of Joint Rule 160(4),
classified the following Bills as section
76 Bills:
24 June 2003
(i)
Page 237 of 252
National Environmental Management
Amendment Bill [B 29 - 2003] (National
Council of Provinces - sec 76).
(ii)
National
Environmental
Biodiversity
Bill
[B
Management:
30
-
2003]
(National Council of Provinces - sec
76).
2.
Translations of Bills submitted:
(1) The Minister of Transport:
(i) Nasionale
Padverkeerwysigingswetsontwerp
[W 31
2003] (National Assembly - sec 76).
This is the official translation into
Afrikaans of the National Road Traffic
Amendment Bill [B 31 - 2003] (National
Assembly - sec 76).
COMMITTEE REPORTS:
-
24 June 2003
Page 238 of 252
National Assembly:
1.
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice
and Constitutional Development on the Judicial
Officers Amendment Bill [B 72 - 2001] (National
Assembly - sec 75), dated 20 June 2003:
The Portfolio Committee on Justice and
Constitutional Development, having
considered the subject of the Judicial
Officers Amendment Bill [B 72 - 2001]
(National Assembly - sec 75), referred to
it and classified by the Joint Tagging
Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, endorses
the classification of the Bill and presents
the Judicial Officers (Amendment of
Conditions of Service) Bill [B 33 - 2003]
(National Assembly - sec 75).
TUESDAY, 24 JUNE 2003
ANNOUNCEMENTS:
24 June 2003
Page 239 of 252
National Assembly and National Council of
Provinces:
1.
Withdrawal of Bills:
(1) The Minister of Finance:
On 18 June 2003 the Minister withdrew the
following Bill:
(i) Financial Services Ombud Schemes Bill
[B 13 - 2002] (National Assembly - sec
75).
National Assembly:
1.
Membership of Assembly:
The
following
member
vacated
effect from 19 June 2003:
Msomi, M D.
TABLINGS:
his
seat
with
24 June 2003
Page 240 of 252
National Assembly:
Papers:
1.
The Speaker:
Report of Delegation to 5th Session of African,
Caribbean,
Pacific-European
Parliamentary
Assembly,
Union
Brazzaville,
Joint
Republic
of Congo, 31 March - 3 April 2003:
The African, Caribbean, Pacific-European Union
Joint Parliamentary Assembly (ACP-EU JPA) met
as scheduled at Brazzaville, Republic of Congo
from March 31 to April 3 2003. As the meeting
due
to
have
been
held
in
the
European
Parliament in November 2002 did not take place
for reasons explained in our last report, the
meeting
in
Session
of
Brazzaville
the
ACP-EU
was
styled
JPA.
As
the
usual
Fifth
this
session was preceded by meetings of the ACP, of
the Working Group on Rules of Procedure, and on
this occasion by inaugural sessions of three
new Standing Committees - on Political Affairs,
24 June 2003
Page 241 of 252
on Economic Development, Finance and Trade and
on
Social
Affairs
and
the
Environment.
The
delegation consisted of Dr Rob Davies and Ms
Ntshadi
Tsheole
(ANC)
and
Ms
Berenice
Sono
(DA). We were accompanied by Mr Saul Pelle of
the South African Embassy to the EU in Brussels
and
Ms
Embassy
Nosisi
in
relations
Potelwa
Kinshasa
with
the
of
(who
the
is
Republic
South
African
responsible
of
the
for
Congo).
Other staff made available by the embassy in
Kinshasa provided logistical support.
After
the
drama
resulting
in
the
failure
to
convene the JPA in Brussels last November, the
Brazzaville meeting was a largely routine and
fairly low-key occasion. Attendance on the part
of European Parliamentarians was not good and,
in
fact,
quorate.
the
European
Apparently,
side
there
was
were
only
just
clashes
with
other meetings of some of the main groups in
the European Parliament. The ACP co-President,
Mr Adrien Houngbedji, also did not attend due
to elections in Benin. Mr Angelo Beda of Sudan,
one of the ACP vice Presidents, stood in for Mr
24 June 2003
Page 242 of 252
Houngbedji on this occasion. Ms Ntshadi Tsheole
also
stood
in
as
rapporteur
for
the
Working
Group on Rules of Procedure for Mr Edgar-Yves
Monnou, who was absent for the same reason.
The
convening
of
the
Committees,
which
took
place before the convening of the plenary was
largely procedural. We are a full member of the
Standing
Committee
on
Economic
Development,
Finance and Trade. The committees are due to
convene
for
their
first
substantial
working
sessions in July. In order to avoid a re-run of
the
issue
that
led
to
the
aborting
of
the
November 2002 JPA - the determination of the
majority
exclude
of
European
certain
delegation
from
premises
the
House
in
-
Parliamentarians
members
the
the
European
Committees
Brussels.
of
will
Apparently
to
Zimbabwean
Parliamentary
meet
for
at
the
ACP
same
reason a long-standing proposal that sessions
of the JPA in Europe be held in the capital of
the
country
holding
the
rotating
Council
Presidency will now be activated, and the next
24 June 2003
Page 243 of 252
session, which will probably take place between
13th and 16th October 2003, will be in Rome.
The
JPA
coincided
with
the
full
entry
into
force of the Cotonou agreement on April 1st,
following ratification by all European member
states and sufficient ACP countries. Two ACP
delegations that had still not ratified were
denied voting rights at the JPA in terms of
provisions of the agreement.
The Brazzaville JPA also took place against the
background of the US-led war on Iraq. Both coPresidents referred to the war in their opening
speeches: Mr Beda of the ACP strongly condemned
the US assault while Ms Glenys Kinnock of the
EU
side
spoke
in
much
more
subdued
terms,
calling for the humanitarian needs of the Iraqi
people to be paramount. While there were strong
feelings among many MEPs, it was evident that
there were also sharp divisions on the EU side
on
this
issue.
We
were
informed
that
the
European Parliament had, in fact, been unable
to
agree
on
any
position
on
war
on
Iraq.
24 June 2003
Page 244 of 252
Mindful of this, the Joint Bureau agreed on a
statement
put
to
the
JPA
at
the
start
of
proceedings. This was very general, lamenting
the loss of life on all sides. A moment of
silence was also held. Many delegates, however,
felt
this
was
insufficient
and
the
Bureau
agreed to allow a debate. All ACP participants
and a large majority of MEPs who spoke in this
debate were strongly against the invasion and
occupation
condemn
of
the
Iraq.
We
subordination
multi-lateralism
and
took
of
the
floor
to
principles
of
international
law
to
an
approach that ``might is right''. We called for
support for the continuing struggle for multilateralism and for the European Union to assert
itself as a real alternative. We also called
for vigilance to ensure that issues in ACP-EU
relations
were
not
marginalized
by
real
concerns about the reconstruction of Iraq. Ms
Maj
Britt
Theorin
of
Sweden
gave
an
input
arguing that the invasion was an illegal action
in terms of international law. Only Mr Martin
Callan of the British Conservatives spoke in
favour of the war. It was agreed not to try to
24 June 2003
Page 245 of 252
adopt a resolution - which would in any case
have
terms
encountered
of
Instead,
gist
procedural
deadlines
the
of
JPA
this
majority''
of
for
tabling
adopted
a
indicated
the
JPA
difficulties
in
resolutions.
Declaration.
that
``a
``considers
The
large
the
war
against Iraq to be in breach of international
law''
and
``cannot
be
justified'',
but
also
noted that ``a small minority strongly opposes
this view''.
Reports on the Cotonou negotiations (largely
dealt with in statements by Development
Commissioner, Poul Nielson, the Greek
Presidency and the ACP council as well as in
follow up debates and questions) point to a
number of unresolved procedural issues as well
as substantive differences in a highly uneven
and unequal negotiating process. The Cotonou
agreement provides for the negotiations to
begin with a process involving the EU and the
whole of the ACP before breaking up into
negotiations for regionally based Economic
Partnership Agreements (EPAs) involving
24 June 2003
Page 246 of 252
separate ACP sub-regions scheduled to begin in
September 2003. The ACP has indicated that it
wants the ``all ACP'' phase to culminate in a
framework agreement that would shape EPA
negotiations (e.g. providing for a common
approach to least developed countries) and
preserve a degree of unity among the ACP. The
EU, however, is much less keen on a substantial
framework agreement and appears to be eager to
embark on EPA negotiations with those ACP
countries and regions that have indicated a
readiness to begin. The issue of ACP unity is a
critical one. Several speakers referred to the
``humpty dumpty'' nature of the ACP - once it
is broken it will not be able to be put
together again. Although there was more time
available for discussion on the Cotonou and WTO
negotiations than had been scheduled in
Brussels, the delay in convening the Committees
has meant that the JPA has yet to establish
processes for systematic monitoring and
engagement with these critical issues.
24 June 2003
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An interesting bilateral issue reported to the
JPA is that Cuba has applied to join Cotonou
without any pre-conditions. Cuba, already a
member of the Georgetown agreement constituting
the ACP, had previously found itself facing
strong demands from the EU on issues of multiparty democracy. Commissioner Nielson told the
JPA that the Commission would recommend that
the European Council agree to admit Cuba saying
this would enhance the EU's cooperation
programme and also create a basis for more
effective political dialogue.
Many of the draft resolutions on thematic
issues were the same as those tabled at the
abortive Brussels meeting and dealt with issues
like the International Criminal Court, Nepad,
WSSD, coffee, sugar, rice, tuna and monitoring
the WTO negotiations (the latter tabled by
ourselves). These resolutions were all passed
with little difficulty.
Resolutions on ACP regions and Europe (the
latter focusing on floods and environmental
24 June 2003
Page 248 of 252
management rather than political matters) were
likewise fairly routine. The Zimbabwe question,
however, was once again the subject of heated
debate. The major European groups remained
strongly critical of the Zimbabwean government
and called for the firm application of EU
sanctions against the country. A feature of the
debate was that a minority of ACP delegations
also joined in this criticism. They included
delegates from Zambia and Botswana. The latter
referred to a refugee center in his
constituency, which he said was ``full to
capacity'', and urged an investigation by SADC
into the ``serious problems'' in Zimbabwe. Also
notable in this respect was a strongly critical
input from the representative of St Vincent and
the Grenadines, who had been strongly
supportive of the Zimbabwean government
position at the Brussels meeting.
Four different resolutions on Zimbabwe were
finally put to the vote. One, tabled jointly by
the European socialist and conservative groups,
was strongly critical and called for an
24 June 2003
Page 249 of 252
intensification of sanctions. Another tabled by
the Greens, with support from some opposition
delegates from ACP countries, was similar but
somewhat softer. The Zimbabwean delegation
alone tabled a resolution arguing that the
difficulties facing the country were entirely
the product of the failure by Britain to honour
its Lancaster House commitments. The fourth
resolution, tabled by the United left group,
regretted that a lack of respect for joint
decision making had led to the cancellation of
the Brussels meeting, called for dialogue
between ACP and EU on problems relating to
democracy and human rights, acknowledged the
land issue and called for efforts to ``break
the deadlock'' in the political situation in
Zimbabwe. We, along with most of the ACP,
supported the last resolution but none
commanded the majority in both houses necessary
to be adopted - after different groups called
for split votes on each of them. We did not
speak in the debate, but after the EU President
noted that the JPA had no position on Zimbabwe
suggested that the matter be referred to the
24 June 2003
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Political Affairs Committee for a thorough
debate on the issues as well as possible ways
to assist the people of Zimbabwe to promote
development and democracy in their country.
This suggestion appeared to command broad
support.
An interesting procedural issue arose during
the debate on Zimbabwe. An opposition
parliamentarian from Mozambique asked for the
floor, and also signed one of the motions. The
ACP co-chair ruled that he could speak if the
leader of the Mozambique delegation agreed. The
leader of their delegation said she had no
objection if the rules provided for this, but
the JPA should understand that he did not speak
on behalf of the Mozambican delegation. This
caused major confusion, which could not be
resolved at the time. The role and status of
opposition party members on ACP delegations,
which have only one vote, has been referred to
the Working Group on Rules of Procedure for
further processing.
24 June 2003
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On the Friday after the JPA, as we were waiting
for the return flight, we crossed the river and
visited Kinshasa. This enabled us to pay a
courtesy call on the embassy, and also to visit
the South African military contingent attached
to the United Nations Mission to the DRC
(Monuc). The visit to the Monuc contingent by
parliamentarians was, we believe, much
appreciated by the troops we were able to meet.
The delegation feels, finally, obliged to make
a brief comment on the original travel
arrangements. We were initially sent via Luanda
(with a 16 hour stopover) and Ponte Noire.
Until noticed by us, no visas were obtained for
Angola. Ntshadi Tsheole and Berenice Sono found
themselves hassled at Ponte Noire, where no
arrangements had been made for receiving
delegates to the JPA. This detour led to the
two Members arriving late for the ACP plenary.
We subsequently discovered that there are
several direct flights both to Brazzaville and
Kinshasa, and in fact returned on these routes.
While we appreciate the need for Parliament to
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economise on air travel costs by using air
miles, we would also urge that decisions on
routing should also take account of conditions
on the ground, and that sending delegations on
such round about routes should be avoided if
possible.
Rob Davies
Ntshadi Tsheole
Berenice Sono