E-There’s a lot of other things a lot of other things we could bring in but it’sH-What can we bring in thatE-I hadn’t thought about-just all kinds of little nuances, pero, I don’t remember anything.
H-Like what?
E-Let me see what I can remember.
H-Well if you can remember something at any point comeE-ComeH-it doesn’t have to follow any sequence.
E-Ok.
H-You know.
E-Yeah, yeah.
H-It doesn’t have to follow any chorological order I meanE-Yeah.
H-we did that for the sake of the conversation.
E-Nah, I think it’s good yeah you got to-yeah.
H-the what now?
UV-The cultural dynamics?
E-I think that you know just terrific differences there are, things that people take for granted, take
for-a very simple example, the way we greet one another.
H-Uh huh.
E-Um, we as Mexicanos, the normal greeting if you know someone is the abrazo.
H-Yeah, right.
E-You know? The abrasso, for Asians there is no contact you know?
H-Yeah.
E-I mean there’s no bodily contact. Uh and it’s just a simple greeting. And for the Japanese the
way I bow in your presence is how much respect I have for you. Just a little bow mean I don’t
respect you too much. I middle bow, that is normal respect, a very deep bow is I have profound
respect for you. And so things like that nobody tells you. Take for example if you got invited to
supper or lunch in France, you never take a bottle of wine with youH-Uh huh.
E-because they’ve already very carefully prepared the wine that goes with the meal they’ve
prepared for you. If you bring wine, it’s gonna force to serve your wine, it’s gonna ruin the meal.
H-Laughs
E-So you never take wine you take flowers but you ask for the right kind of flowers because if
it’s a romantic supper, well, you take red roses, if it’s just a supper amongst friends than you take
a mixed bouquet. So even the color coding of the flowers has a cultural meaning, you know?
And so I-again you know the way we eat for example, I mean what’s considered manners for one
is considered insulting to the other.
H-Uh huh.
E-You know some cultures it’s very normal to eat like this “mimics eating,” you know? Uh you
know there was a treatise in the middle ages that wrote how it was immoral to use forks and
knifes because if God had intended us to use forks and knives God would have built us that way.
-Laughs
E-So it was a sin against God to use knives and forks. SoH-Laughs. I’m glad they got over that one, haha, right.
E-Haha. So anyway you know there are profound differences. Even the way we speak English
you know? I mean there’s many people that speak English but speak it very differently. And weso you become aware of all those things that you don’t even think aboutH-Uh huh.
E-and you think about you knowH-When you came back to San Antonio with this new-new ideas of you know how that youE-Uh huh.
H-that you picked up on-or thatE-Yeah.
H-opened upE-Yeah.
H-you picked them up in various placesE-Right, yes.
H-that seem to open up in the Philippines. Um what-you-we talked a little bit about the fact that
the-your fellow priests, especially Mexican American priests were more interested in things like
you know serving the poor. I know Father Ruiz was very involved in the uh in the uhE-Inner City Apostolate.
H-Inner City Apostolate, yeah, then with the issue of culture. And it didn’t resonate immediately
you think?
E-Well it wasn’t that-it was more cultural in a more superficial level.
H-Uh, huh.
E-Cultural-and it was good uh used in you know mixed style of music, celebrating the feast days,
uh, you know speaking the language. It was the-you might say, the external aspects of culture.
H-Uh huh.
E-And it was very good, those were necessary. But I think one of the things I discovered in the
Philippines and it came to me when were here is that culture’s really the depths of your soul.
H-Uh, huh.
E-It’s what you consider to be natural.
H-Uh huh.
E-It’s so natural that you don’t even talk about it. You know? But it’s all in the encounter with
the other that you start to become aware of differences.
H-Uh,,huh.
E-you start to become aware of differences whether it’s in styles of eating, whether it’s in dress,
whether it’s in jokesH-Uh, huh.
E- I mean you don’t translate jokes easily.
H-Yeah.
E-You don’t curse easily in different languages. Uh, there are different curse words. Uh, there
are different vulgar words uh that are used. And so all those things you become of how-that
culture is really-is really our acquired nature.
H-Uh huh.
E-You know? And it’s so natural to me I don’t even think about it. But when we’re out of it I
feel very awkward.
H-Yeah.
E-Even such basic, basic things as how to have a bowel movement.
H-Yeah, right haha.
E-We think everybody has western toilets.
H-Yeah.
E-But you start traveling around and you find out that one of the things that you always ask is
‘well how do I go to the bathroom’?
H-Yeah haha.
E-You know? But for those people it’s very natural.
H-Yeah.
E-You know? So that’s really where you become aware of differencesH-Uh huh.
E-and you became aware of difference in family styles. A difference, for example, in the way
you treat your kids, difference in upbringing. You know one of the major differences today is
that-one of the major problems today is the difference between immigrant parents with one set of
values and their children who acquire a different set of values once they’re here.
H-One they’re here, yeah.
E-And that’s one of the big issues today you know?
H-Yeah.
E-Major issue. And so those issues begin to become more explicit.
H-Right. Did the retreat in Santa Fe um-how crucial was that retreat by way of-on the impact on
other Mexican American priests in uh in this issue of faith and culture?
E-Well I would suspect, it’d be interesting for somebody to do a specific study, but I would
suspect that we had a very high percentage of all the Mexican American priests in the country
present at that retreat.
H-Uh, huh.
E-You know, I would suspect-it was a big group and well there were very few of usH-Yeah.
E-very few of us so I think there was a very high percentage of the few of them that existedH-Yeah.
E-were at Santa Fe. At Santa Fe-and the thing was there not to get us away from the activismH-Uh huh.
E-because at that time that was fundamental.
H-Uh huh.
E-Community organizing, pressure in the Episcopal conference, but by that time we had two
bishops, we had Bishop Flores and we had Bishop Arsube by the time of the Santa Fe meeting.
H-Uh huh.
E-I don’t think, I don’t think Bobby Sanchez was an archbishop yet. I think that came after the
Santa Fe meeting I think.
H-Uh huh.
E-That is correct. During the Santa Fe meeting we found out we had a second bishop name
which was Arsube. I’m not sure if Bishop Gilbert Chavez had been named yet.
H-Uh huh.
E-Anyway those you can check on later one.
H-Yeah.
E-But it was a very high presence and I think the outcome of Santa Fe was not to diminish the
activism.
H-Uh huh.
E-But it was more to say that we had to go deeper into the roots of the foundations and questions.
And that’s where the idea of a center came up.
H-Uh huh.
E-Which eventually would become MACC in San Antonio.
H-Uh, who else among the, uh, among the Hispanic priests, um, what-who else responded most
enthusiastically? You know, uh, what-I mean was it just a general positive response to this whole
idea of going deeper into faith and culture?
E-Yeah I think the whole group of-I think the excitement of the question was whose going to do
it.
H-Oh, ok.
E-And almost immediately they pointed at me because of the experience I had already running
the Diocesan Center of Catechetic and having been in the Philippines with issues, you know, and
I had ideas about what-I was already running the Incarnate Word Pastoral CenterH-Uh huh.
E-you know, Institute rather, and so almost the immediate thing was ‘Well you’re the one to do
it’.
H-Yeah.
E-‘If it’s going to be done, you do it you know’.
H-Uh huh.
E-So sure enough I started to work at it and at first we started-we all started a national center
going to the U.S. Episcopal ConferenceH-Uh huh.
E-and that’s where Archbishop Fury became very, very instrumental because Fury said ‘if you
go through the national conference, it’s going to be assigned to a committee, and it’s going to be
several years before anything happens’.
H-Laughs
E-I said ‘Well, we can’t afford to wait’.
H-Uh huh.
E-And so he says ‘Why don’t you do it through the Texas bishops? Do it through the Texas
Catholic Conference’. Well then we needed somebody to present it because the Texas Catholic
Conference was you know kind of a gathering of all the official units of the diocese, like the
school office, the education office and so forth. So then we needed somebody to be presented so
it became vocation office because at first kind of the idea that played it was it was almost like a
national seminary. But then no there was too much opposition to that.
H-Yeah.
E-People didn’t want to loose seminarians, no. But a center that prepared people there was not
opposition to that.
H-Uh huh.
E-So that’s why the idea evolved more to a center, not a seminary and then there were several
evocation directors that presented it. In fact there’s a man in San Antonio, I understand he works
at the Granada Retirement Center, if I remember he was a priest of the Brownsville diocese, Ron
Anderson.
H-Uh huh.
E-It was Ron Anderson, who became very, very instrumental in pushing it through the Texas
Catholic Conference. Uh, and so it became-and the way we got it through was we didn’t ask
them for money, haha.
H-Oh yeah?
E-We just asked them for a blessing you know? And we told them, yes, for money-and so we
started, it was an incredible leap of faith. We had no money.
H-Uh huh.
E-We had no money. And then we decided to start the center and then when we decided to start
it, the question was where, where’s it going to be? It was San Antonio; one of the ideas was
Santa Fe, Nuevo MexicoH-Uh huh.
E-some were pushing for Los Angeles. Well Los Angeles was ruled out right away because we
knew we didn’t have episcopal backing in Los Angeles.
H-Uh huh.
E-Santa Fe we had episcopal backing. Archbishop Davies was very excited about it and he was
going to give us the old seminary of MontezumaH-Uh huh.
E-but that was too far out of the way, haha. And here we had Assumption Seminary which at that
time was probably the slowest so it was a whole empty buildingH-Uh huh.
E-and we had an archbishop that was excited about it. We had Bishop Flores, he was here
already.
H-Uh huh.
E-So this became the ideal place.
H-Uh huh.
E-And so that’s why we ended up starting the center in San Antonio.
H-What uh-in uh-where there-who of the bishops in the Texas Conference besides Bishop
Flores, who responded most enthusiastic? Fury obviously wasE-Fury in the beginning, then he turn against it for several other reasons which we can go into
later, but at the beginning he was the most enthusiastic pusher.
H-Uh huh.
E-Fury was a man that kind of intuitive things had to be done. He wasn’t a big thinker.
H-Uh huh.
E-He loved to have a good time, he loved to show off his crazy t-shirts. He would always wear
these real weird t-shirts with Longhorns or stuff like that and uhH-Uh huh.
E-he was a very great human being.
H-Uh huh.
E-But he intuited a need. That’s why he got the first Mexican named bishop.
H-Uh huh.
E-He was the one to thank for Bishop Flores.
H-Yeah.
E-You know? And so intuitive to need he immediately said ‘Lets run with it’. But we had the
backing. We didn’t have any opposition from the bishops that I can remember. Uh Bishop
DeFalco of Amarillo was very supportive, Bishop Shapey was very, very supportive, uh Bishop
Drury probably had a lot of questions on it and Bishop Medeiros, u,h I think by that time he was
already in Boston, I’m not sure, just about. But he was supportive till the end.
H-Uh huh.
E-Bishop Medeiros would every year send us a personal check for $5,000.
H-Uh huh.
E-Even from Boston when he was cardinal. He was a great supporter. Uh the main ones I
remember being supporters were Shapey, DeFlaco, Fury and of course later on McCarthy and
Forenso but those came later, uh those came later. UhH-The uh initial-the initial backing came from the bishops?
E-Well yeah, $5,000 or something like that.
H-Yeah.
E-And then we started getting grants from religious orders. Maryknoll was super helpful.
H-Uh huh.
E-Maryknoll just came through really big. The Ramsey Foundation in Milwaukee came through
big, uh American Board of Catholic Missions. Uh no we started to get-uh the first two or three
years were very difficult.
H-Uh huh.
E-The first two or three years we don’t know how we-the first two or three years-one of the
reasons we were able to get going was because none of the staff was paid.
H-Yeah.
E-I mean the religious orders agreed to maintain the person they were sending to MACC on their
salaries.
H-Oh I see.
E-And I was taken off salary from the archdiocese. I had to live on the savings that I hadH-Uh huh.
E-which wasn’t many, although I very quickly went bankrupt completely. So it was really was a
leap of faith.
H-Uh huh.
E-It was a leap of faith and for example the Dominicans allowed two nuns to come in to serve
and they picked up their salaries. CICMs picked up the salary, Father John Linskin’s. Uh the
MCDP sent Sister Angel Arrebia.
H-Uh huh.
E-Uh the Daughters of Charity, Sister, uh what’s his name uh, she was the artist uh, her name
escapes my mind at the moment. Um I can see her, beautiful person. But anyway the differentdifferent congregations contributed.
H-What is the-the-the strategy at first by way of getting these ideas out. Was it these mobile
teams?
E-No, noH-Where they out there earlier?
E-No that deal was after, it came later.
H-Later.
E-No the idea was basically to pull together a research team that could then digging into the
reality of who were we.
H-Uh huh.
E-Who were we and then reflecting Biblically upon that-it was a classical model still used in
Latin America, Ver, Juzgar, Actuar
H-Uh huh.
E-To let us take an honest look at what is realityH-Uh huh.
E-And do a critical analysis of reality. It became a popular word in Spanish, analysis de la
realidad
H-Uh huh.
E-You probably remember that. And to really get behind the surface, not just what’s happening
but what are the causes of it, what’s really happening. And then out of that very defined social
reality do we reading are the basic gospel textsH-Uh huh.
E-which is what we profess to be, Christians.
H-Uh huh.
E-You know? And that reading of the scripture comes out of the social location. We were simply
making ours very explicit. And then out of that reality, what do we do? So then whose got to-so
that was the model, that’s why we put a reflection team together and one ofH-This is the team you’re talking about right?
E-At MACC.
H-Well yeah, brought together at MACC.
E-That’s right.
H-And they were going to be reflecting among one another?
E-That’s right but out of that reflection, we’re gonna create courses.
H-I see, yeah.
E-So we created our first mini pastoral course, that’s the first one we did and followed the same
format, ver, juzgar, actuar, you know?
H-Uh huh.
E-But then one of the things we started to do we needed to reclaim our history. Were not-we
were not taught our history anywhere. And I’m still convinced, Gilberto, there’s not a single
theology in this country that teaches Latin American church history.
H-Uh huh.
E-It’s not only including church books, haha. And yet when you look at the fact that it was
probably the most fantastic evangelization endeavor in the history of the church since the
Apostolic era.
H-Uh huh.
E-And yet that is totally neglected in history books.
H-Uh huh.
E-Even today, it doesn’t appear. One of the first thing we do is we started to reclaim that and
started to dig out and I mean I burned my eyelashes out reading this stuff and I was fascinated by
it.
H-Uh huh.
E-We had never been taught that history. I mean that’s the origins of our faith expressions you
know a very, dynamic, creative, evangelizing process. Uh, so we started researching our history,
history of Mexico, we started researching for the first time-by that time we had some very, very
good Chicano scholars. Uh we had Jesus de ChavarriaH-Uh huh.
E-we had Rudy Acuña, uh we had este, come se llama, Mario Garcia. We started have our good
Chicano scholarsH-Uh huh.
E-that was beginning to reclaim our history for our own selves.
H-Uh huh.
E-As-I mean you’re a part of that yourself, you remember that. And so it really was an exciting
periodH-Uh huh.
E-to be able to claim our story. See, because we realized you’re not a people unless you have a
story, but if the story’s not told, then you have to believe somebody else’s story about you.
H-Uh huh.
E-And so we started to realize that in order to be a free people, we need to formulate our story
and tell it. And so that’s why it became so important and to dig into the historical roots. And
that’s why we, again we brought in Jesus de Chavarria came to lecture here, uh, you’ve lectured
many times yourself.
H-Ricardo Romo.
E-Ricardo Romo. Roberto, Father Roberto PeñaH-Uh huh.
E-got very involved in this, I mean he was a fireball in this. You know I mean he’d make people
cringe in their seats when he would talk, haha, you know?
H-And the intended audience at the beginning?
E-Anybody-our own people but anybody interested in working Latino ministry.
H-Uh huh.
E-And we had great response. Our people-our local people were fascinated to hear our story,
their story, you know? They’ve never heard it.
H-And who were the first people who came to theE-The first group came were seminarians.
H-Seminarians.
E-The first official course was in the January mini session, we organized the first mini pastoral.
Uh and we had something like twenty four seminarians came from different parts of the country,
and one Protestant, Ed Silvest, from Southern Methodist University, um, a Methodist professor.
That was the beginning.
H-How did these uh-how did these uh-how did the word get out that MACC had been
established?
E-Well it was like an instant-there was a hunger in the country. Remember it was the time of
Civil Rights, it was the time movements and all that, so as soon as it was announced, you’d
swear that we had a university that was far greater than Incarnate Word or Our Lady of the Lake.
I mean that’s the image that came out, haha.
H-Yeah.
E-That’s the image that came out. We were born a successful adult even though we had nothing,
haha.
H-Yeah haha.
E-I mean we had the image of what people thoughtH-Yeah.
E-we were just a bunch of crazy people coming there to being you know? And then we started
formulating courses. Around there we started formulating the courses, we started inviting people
in, we were the first ones in this country to invite people like Gustavo Gutierrez in. If they’d
known that he’d come to teach here-the first courses ever taught in this country on liberation
theology were at MACC. And that’s where we lost a lot of funding, and we lost a lot of funding
because then the Ramsey Foundation cut us off. So it cost us something like $100,000 a yearH-Wow.
E-because we were inviting people like Gustavo Gutierrez.
H-Uh huh.
E-But we believed in it, we believed in it and I remember a big donor, a very major donor, who
was head of one of the largest companies in this country that you know was very disturbed that
we invited Father Gustavo in because supposedly, supposedly, he was a Marxist you know.
H-Ah.
E-So I made him a bargain, look I’ll tell you what I said ‘you’re intelligent, why don’t you come
stand-he’s gonna give a mini course in three days’.
H-Uh huh.
E-‘Why don’t you come and just listen to three days and visit with him personally. Just-and then
tell me afterwards, tell me after what you think’. So he agreed. He came in, top business
executive from New York flew in, sat in, I mean the guy ran a multimillion dollar company uh
and he came in and sat down and listened to Father Gustavo and visited with him and in the end
he said ‘You know what, every business executive in the country should follow his lectures. This
man is phenomenal, he’s no communist, no’. And so I always tell people, if you listen to
Gustavo himself that’s another thing. If you listen to what others say that he saysH-Yeah.
E-then you get all these crazy ideas. And that’s why I would always-I would make sure I would
never allow people to just come in and sit for a little bit. I said ‘todo o nada’, ‘stay for the whole
course he’s gonna give or don’t come in’ because some people wanted to come into it-no. Then
because then you’ll go out-because Gustavo is very, very preciseH-Uh huh.
E-so he can take something that he’s gonna turn down later on and say ‘well Father Gustavo’s
teaching this’. So anyway we brought Orlando Bofine, we brought uh all the key Latin
Americans through MACC.
H-Uh huh.
E-And that was their entry to the US. And then we started inviting-God, we got invited right
away to-uh it was amazing we grew up in a-with an incredible image. I mean we were with inmonths of when we had started we were being invited to lecture at Harvard, at Yale, because all
of a sudden we’re the experts, you know, haha, and we didn’t deny it haha.
H-Yeah right haha.
E-We didn’t deny it we said ‘fine’ you know? I think we spoke to every major national group in
this country.
H-Uh huh.
E-We gave keynote addresses to the Canon Law Society to the Theological Society to the
Liturgical Society. If they invited us, we’d go. All of a sudden we were experts in everything,
and why not? But we gave them insights, we gave them insights they’d never suspected. We
gave them insights and it was-it was exciting. I mean the first years of MACC were just
unbelievable-and the problems were huge.
H-Uh huh.
E-Now it’s interesting, MACC doesn’t have as many students now because of its own successH-Uh huh.
E-because now are own students have started centers in different parts of the country.
H-Yeah.
E-So it’s beautiful.
H-Yeah.
E-You know? So that’s the way we got started. It was, uh I’d like to say, a couple of times you
know we had to pay our bills with unsigned checks just to give us time for them to send them
back to say ‘Hey, you forgot to sign the check’H-Laughs
E-and hopefully we’d get some money in the bank by then you know haha.
H-Laughs
E-Oh the first years were just really, really-the money started to come about the third or fourth
year.
H-Uh huh.
E-The first two or three years were really just an-it’s a miracle that we stayed alive.
H-Do you think that the uh-that-when did the, uh, strategy of uh-you initially had seminarians,
mostly seminarians.
E-Yes.
H-And the idea that you went to the Catholic bishops, Texas Catholic Bishop’s Conference and
you got in under the vocation thing.
E-Uh huh.
H-And their had been in PADRES, uh, you know, some concern about changing the seminary-
E-Uh huh.
H-so that they wouldn’t be pushed outE-Uh huh, right.
H-as you suggested. So the whole direction was towards seminariansE-Uh, huh.
H-in some way right?
E-It started with that, but it very quickly broadened out to anyone working in Hispanic ministry.
H-And who were-who was it-who were the others?
E-The others were the seminary professors, uh, religious education directors, pastoral workers, it
became a real hodge podge of just about anything.
H-Uh huh. Who uh-you know who came-who mostly came, was it mostly Anglo Americans or
was it Mexican Americans?
E-It was-to the language classes definitely, to the Spanish classes, mainly English-speaking
students, Anglo Americans.
H-Right.
E-And there was a controversy within PADRES and Hermanas a very legitimate one. The vey
legitimate controversy was ‘Are we preparing our own people for leadership or our we preparing
Anglos to continue dominating our people because now they know our language and our
culture?’
H-Uh huh.
E-That was the-it was a very legitimateH-Yeah right.
E-issue you know?
H-Uh huh.
E-I mean I uh-on the other hand my position was we need to at least work with those who are
really trying to understand us.
H-Uh huh.
E-That was my position. But I understood, I understood the, you know-and because one of the
aims of MACC was going to be leadership development and it was.
H-Uh huh.
E-Leonard Anguiano came in very strongly and started working with Edmundo RodriguezH-Yeah.
E-started working in-going around-this became now part of the mobile team.
H-Yeah.
E-Because they started going around and doing leadership development. And Edmundo was a
genius in just communicating practically very profound theory but already action oriented.
H-Uh huh.
E-And Edmundo and Leonard worked beautifully as a team.
H-Yeah. And so that um-what is the role-what about the issue of, um, you brought in the
Hermanas group. What role did they play in this?
E-Well you know just at the time PADRES was starting Hermanas was starting and they had
basically the same stories.
H-Uh, huh.
E-Many of us heard stories that many of them had been designated to be kitchen nunsH-Yeah.
E-or laundry nuns as many of our men had been designated to be working brothers.
H-Yeah.
E-You know, we found out that almost all the religious congregations, Jesuits, to Oblates other
groups had many Mexican Americans as lay brothersH-Yeah.
E-you know doing the laundry and the kitchen and all that kind of stuff, but we wouldn’t call
them to orders.
H-Yeah.
E-You know, and so the nuns had the same thing.
H-Uh huh.
E-They were saying-and so it became then a you know-many had been the one Mexican in the
whole congregation.
H-Uh huh.
E-And so they themselves were very aware of the need, and they collaborated with MACC. They
started to furnish teachers, I remember one of the Hermanas became director of our languages
program and really turned it into a really high quality language program, it was Sister Silvia
Sedillo H-Uh huh.
E-who was a Hermana. I forgot her congregation but she’s a Daughter of Charity or Loretta or
something. But Silvia was-uh another one that came to work was, she’s an MC, Sister Carmela
Montalvo came to work with us for many years as a language teacher. And so we started to-they
were also on our board and sometimes very demanding.
H-In what sense?
E-In the sense you know of what they felt needed to be done and one of the big things was how
to prepare our own, not just prepare those that have always been over usH-Uh huh.
E-to continue being over us in a more affective way haha.
H-Laughs
E-And so there were tensions. Part of the tensions at MACC was that MACC for some, we were
too far to the left.
H-Uh huh.
E-For some on the left, we were too far to the right, ha.
H-Right.
E-Because MACC tried to work within the structures, that was so from the beginning. That wesome of us, I say myself, and many others, we were Catholic priests.
H-Yeah.
E-And we had complaints, but we loved our church, and we were going to work within our
church you know? So it wasn’t a matter of going beyond it, it was a matter of confronting-we
were confronting the Church that becomes really Catholic, haha.
H-Uh huh.
E-So those were real tensions. I mean people believe deeply, and when you believe deeply
you’re emotional.
H-There was some uh-some-some discussion about, uh, whether MACC was going to um assert
or validate Mexican American culture, that kind of thing that we’ve been talking about, or
whether it was going to be a mediatorE-Uh huh.
H-uh, in order to facilitate how Mexican Americans fit within society.
E-I think it was both, I don’t think there were necessarily opposed to each other. We were
working within the larger society; we’re not forming a separate nation.
H-Uh, huh.
E-So we did have to learn how to mitigate it and negotiate.
H-Yeah.
E-On the other hand, we could only be strong negotiators out of a strong sense of who we were.
H-Uh huh.
E-And so it was a bit of both. Some people saw it as an either or, I didn’t, I didn’t not see it-I
thought that as I see ecumenism, I feel it you can only be truly ecumenical comes from a strong
sense of knowing who we are you know? Although it’s a weak sense, you know-so I think it
gives-if you’re gonna be affective within U.S. society, we have to be able to negotiate. That
doesn’t mean we have to sell out.
H-Yeah.
E-It didn’t mean-and I think that was the sense I would make if I would make it today. I mean I
would have the same feeling today that it’s out a strong sense of who you are and to be grateful
for who you areH-Uh huh.
E-rather than apologetic, and not for giving in to almost everything. See I think where
negotiation became very negative is when people tired to hide their Latino background, tried to
and you know whiten it to pure-ethnic cleansing.
H-Yeah.
E-You know? And even they become-tell the best jokes-the best jokes about Mexicans as
anybody else and so forth.
H-Yeah.
E-You know? That-that’s what I found very negative. But the way I saw it was that negotiation
or the mediation. and the self affirmation went hand in hand.
H-Uh huh. The, uh, the funding uh for MACC at-you know some funding came from the bishops
and it had a three or four years of struggle that you talked about. Uh you know funding from the
congregationsE-Right.
H-picking up the salaries and this kind of thing. Then began that some money started coming in
from foundations. Uh, at what point-you know, it begins with the Texas bishops, at what point
uh-but it has a national audience almost immediately, as you described, at what point does it
become a national center?
E-Well, almost it was born as a national center, it was amazing. It was regional, it’s always been
regional, that’s why it’s called Mexican American not Hispanic.
H-Uh huh.
E-That it’s always been regional. And one of the reasons when we started we were calling it the
Hispanic Center, uh, but we had a very good friend who was Puerto Rican, Tony uh what’s his
name, he works in-you know him
H-Yeah uhE-Steven Stevens-Arroyo.
H-Steven, that’s right.
E-Uh Tony is the one that challenged us. He said ‘don’t call it Hispanic because you don’t know
anything about the other groups. Why don’t you be honest and call it who you are and if you do a
good job on this, than you will help us do similar things for our own’.
H-Uh huh.
E-And so I think that’s very wise advice. So I always said ‘no that’s why the name itself is
important. We’re Mexican American-we’re not an all Hispanic center, but we’re concerned
about all the Hispanics’ haha. But we don’t dare to be so arrogant as to speak for all of themH-Yeah.
E-when don’t really know their situation that well. And that was Tony who came up-and that’s
why we ended up calling it Hispanic Center to what it became the Mexican American Cultural
Center. But as far as the fundraising, Archbishop Flores was a great fundraiser. And archH-Who’s this?
E-Archbishop Flores, Bishop Flores.
H-Oh yeah.
E-And he would immediately write letters.
H-Uh huh.
E-And he’d get monies you know? And then some of the congregations, now the congregation of
the CIGM Fathers, they became major supporters. They became major supporters with grants of
$50,000 , $100,000 and so forth. So they became major supporters. Maryknoll was a major
supporter. Now the other congregations came and gave you know very sizeable grants. So
MACC really is thanks to the fundraising abilities of Bishop Flores, thanks to the religious
congregations, thanks to foundations, thanks-for example the United Parcel Service was very,
very helpful in-very helpful in getting MACC going.
H-Oh, wow.
E-Because we helped them come into the southwest, they didn’t know how to train their
executives so we trained them for them. So we trained execs and they became very grateful to us.
So for many years they were very, very supportive.
H-What about bishops outsideE-Yes.
H-Texas.
E-Yeah quite of few would send in $1,000, $500, $5,000-like Bishop Medeiros always sent
funding in.
H-Uh huh.
E-At one time, this is historical, Archbishop Fury couldn’t believe it, at one time we got a $5,000
donation from Pope Paul VI.
H-Oh wow.
E-And Fury said he’d never heard of that in his life haha.
H-Laughs
E-And the Archbishop still brought it personally, he was the Nuncio at that time.
H-Who was this now?
E-Archbishop Gene Jadeau
H-Oh I see.
E-Yeah, who was the Nuncio to the United States at that time. So we had-we had a lot of support
that way you know and a lot of-again we always had a lot of volunteer support
H-Uh huh.
E-We always had a lot of volunteer support.
H-Did it have a governing board from the very beginning?
E-Oh yeah it had a board of directors, board of trustees .
H-And uh who was on the board in the beginning? I don’t want to know the names but0
E-I don’t remember.
H-who were the types?
E-Bishop Flores was the chairman.
H-Yeah.
E-Archbishop Shapey and DeFalco were on it. We wanted to make it ecumenical from the
beginning somewhat so Jorge Lara Brown was in from the beginning.
H-Uh huh.
E-There was representatives of Hermanas, representatives of PADRES, some lay people. It was a
mixed board, yeah.
H-Form outside of Texas also?
E-No mainly Texas, but I think later on we started to bring people from the outside. Archbishop
Davis was on it from New Mexico. Yeah.
H-If you look back and you say well you know you have to do it all over again what would you
do different? Haha.
E-I probably wouldn’t do anything different.
H-Laughs.
E-You know I’d probably-I often think MACC started-I still think we had a great formula. I
mean study hard, in the study hard, one day-no religious service on the weekend, we cared to go
to the parishes and get the feel of the parishes. One Wednesday we have a beautiful community
liturgy and a fiesta afterwards.
H-Uh huh.
E-Because fiesta is part of being Latino.
H-Yeah.
E-And if fiesta is part of being Latino that’s where a lot of the stereotypes break down and so
forth
H-MACC nights?
E-MACC nights, yeah, people took a great memory of that.
H-Yeah.
E-You know a great, great memory of that. So as far as MACC goes I don’t think I would-you
know MACC started publications, and it’s amazing all the things that started out of MACC.
H-Uh huh.
E-You know for example now the Southeast Pastoral Center, the Jesuit Summer School in San
Francisco, the Midwest, uh, ICLM which prepares local leaders for Illinois, Indiana, and all
those states. It’s amazing how many projects around the country came out of MACC.
H-Uh huh.
E-So I think it’s uh-I think considering we were not sure what we were doing, we simply did it.
H-Yeah.
E-You know? And then, at one time, when our students won academic credits, so we had an
arrangement with Incarnate Word that students would take a certain percentage of their work for
the pastoral institute, MACC, and then we made an arrangement, which was very fascinating
with Boston College. Boston College made all the MACC faculty adjunct faculty.
H-Uh, huh.
E-So people in Boston College could do fifty percent of the graduate work at MACC-
H-Yeah.
E-and get credit in Boston College. So we have several students in Boston to get their nursing
degrees at BostonH-Uh huh.
E-through MACC. You know and that was the incredible arrangement. So and then a lot of
universities would send us students and they would give the credit.
H-Yeah.
E-You know, they would agree that for that course we could be the adjunct professor. And soH-There’s another movement within the church that, uh, has some kind of an indirect impact on
the Chicano movement that’s of interest to me and I don’t know to what extent it folds into this.
E-Uh huh.
H-It may not.
E-Yeah.
H-And that is the Cursillo Movement.
E-Oh the Cursillo ovement was incredible powerful. I mean IH-Did you do a Cursillo.
E-Oh absolutely I used to run Cursillos, yes.
H-Oh yeah?
E-I was a big CursillistaH-Were they here in San Ant-at the archdiocese?
E-At the archdiocese in the country side in Floresville, Karnes City, Nixon, all those-oh the
Cursillo Movement was one of the most important movements I think to fire up many of the
leaders later on, community organizing, other stuff came out of the Cursillo Movement.
H-What is it about the Cursillo Movement that produced that?
E-It allowed people who had never been in a position of leadership to be leaders because the
Cursillo Movement immediately turned the people into profesores.
H-How did do that? Just for the record.
E-Well they simply-they didn’t know the whole material, they simply memorized their talk, that
was it. And they went to escuela de profesores. Now then it was prestigious, “Yo voy a la
escuela de profesores.
H-Uh huh.
E-I hear people had been janitors, garbage collectors, gardeners who had never had any prestige
in society, who had never speak-spoke to-they had all been spoken to. They come in, they’re
given a weekend workshop that was tremendous. You know I loved the Cursillo Movement. I
think one of the things I wish it was still going strong because I think it’s one of the best
combinations of a lot of things, good psychology, good theology, good group dynamics and it
really recreated people. I mean that’s a miracle the Cursillo Movement. And I’ve seen people
that day to day they’re-for example Cesar Chavez Cursillista.
H-Yeah.
E-And many people around him were Cursillistas. Many people of the community organizersbecause it gave people a sense of self affirmation, self of pride, a send of that the had something
to offer, that even though they may not speak correctly they could speakH-Uh huh.
E-because they had something to say. So I think that-no I’m glad you touched on it. I think the
Cursillo Movement’s often neglected when do Latino and Chicano studies.
H-When was the Cursillo Movement brought into the diocese of San-archdiocese of San
Antonio?
E-I’m not sure into the archdiocese, it came into the country-into the country in 1940s I believe.
It was brought in by airmen from SpainH-Right.
E-that had made the Cursillo and they came and they were assigned to training the Valley.
H-In Laredo I think.
E-Was it Laredo?
H-I think so.
E-It might have been raisedH-Or somewhere like that.
E-And I think Father Gus Petru, wasn’t he, Gus Petru very involved with them from the
beginning?
H-I’d have to look that one up.
E-And then some other-they started in the Valley and then they came to San Antonio through
Father DusanH-Uh huh.
E-whose-I think he’s still alive, Father Luis Dusan at Corazon de Maria. And I was-I was not
even in the seminary when they started. Because I remember my pastor, Father Catalan at Christ
the King Parish became very interested. He never did oneH-Uh huh.
E-but he just became very interested because you started to read little things about it.
H-Uh huh.
E-You know? And by the time I went to the seminary it was already blooming.
H-Yeah.
E-By the time I was ordained it was in its heyday. I did many Cursillo and I loved to do Cursillo
work.
H-Well lets talk a little bit about the uh the content in the Cursillo-in the Cursillo courses, or
lectures, or lessons and on in some ways one could say is very traditional.
E-Yeah absolutely. It’s very pre-Vatican.
H-Yeah.
E-It was very doctrinal-it was very doctrinal but the fascinating thing, Gilbert, was the way it
applied those doctrines and that was what’s so fascinating. I would say in the way they applied
them, they were way ahead of their time. The doctrine itself was simply what you’d try in any
good catechism book before the council. But the way it was presented and then the discussions
that took place afterwards and what was pulled out it I would say that aspect of it was probably
way, way avant gard.
H-And how-what is the dynamic of that in a senseE-Well it was very simple you know, first of all, it was lay people running it.
H-Uh huh.
E-Now that in itself was already a shock for most people who were used to only the priest
speaking.
H-Uh huh.
E-So firstly it was lay people run. The rector, the leader was a lay person, the whole thing-there
might be one priest in the whole teamH-Uh huh.
E-who gave two or three of the talks out of maybe fifteen talks.
H-Uh huh.
E-Then there was a great family atmosphere. From the moment you arrived someone was
carrying your bags in, somebody was hugging you and saying ‘Juanito, I’m so glad you’re here’
you know, and there was an atmosphere of singing right away, good popular songs you know. So
it was a real relaxing, festive atmosphere. And then it started and the talks were real serious. I
mean talks were really, really kept to you.
H-In a sense of how-‘what does this doctrine mean in my life’?
E-Just-what is a doctrine? What is this about? And so forth, but then you break into discussion
sessions.
H-Uh huh.
E-And each group had a group leader, and each group had to come up with a drawing or a
painting that brought up what the doctrine meant for them.
H-Uh huh.
E-So you had to see-participation wasn’t ordinary in those days.
H-Yeah.
E-In those days remember the old teaching method was ‘I teach, you learn’.
H-Yeah.
E-You know? So the idea that you had a group dynamicH-Uh huh.
E-together search for ‘what does this mean to us,’ you know? And then at the end you had a
plenary session, each group would present and they’d get applauded and so forth you know?
Well that was totally radical. That was totally-not only in Catholicism but in the field of
education.
H-Yeah.
E-And as we say in those days, desks were still nailed to the floor so you wouldn’t move around.
H-Yeah.
E-You know? And so it’s methodology was totally ahead of its time. It’s content was(n’t) but
then when the content was applied, you saw implications you had never suspected.
H-Uh huh. Why was it-why was it more popular among the Mexicano communities than the
Anglo communities? Why do you thinkE-Well I think itH-There were some Cursillos thatE-Oh yeah definitely yeah it was fairly successful. Well the whole renewal movement came out
of the Cursillo Movement.
H-Uh huh.
E-The whole renewal movement in an Anglo adaptation of the Cursillo Movement.
H-Uh huh.
E-And because the renewal movement is basically the curcio movement Anglocized.
H-Yeah.
E-You know? And this my opinion.
H-Right.
E-And I think the ACTS retreats in San Antonio now, the ACTS retreats are a modern version of
the Cursillo Movement.
H-Uh huh.
E-And they’ll tell you that. It’s a modern version of the Cursillo. SoH-What’s modern about them do you think, about the ACTS?
E-I’ve never made one, that’s what they tell-that’s them haha.
H-Ok, haha.
E-That’s them because I’ve never made one but that’s what they tell me. Uh but the Cursillo
Movement-the Cursillo Movement itself like I say had a lot of-it was very personal. For
example, even the image, the profesores did not sit on a table above the students, the profesores
were the ones that served tables.
H-Uh huh.
E-So right away you bring up the notion that in the church authority is to be of service. So event
the priest-even the priest would help in the washing of the dishes and the serving of the table. So
all of a sudden you got a completely different image. They still had traditional sacramental about
the you know sacredness of the priest and all thatH-Yeah.
E-but they saw the priest as not somebody way above them, but as someone who was serving
tables, someone who was telling jokes, someone who was-and so all of a sudden there was a
complete image that was coming in. To be someone in the Church is to be servicial, to be of
service. And so that’s what I say-I think the Cursillo Movement could be analyzed very
interestingly today. How traditional doctrine has incredible possibilities of human implicationsH-Uh, huh.
E-that all of a sudden we missed out because we became afraid of doctrine.
H-Yeah. Why-lets go back to the question, why did it hit and bring outE-Well I think it responded-
H-amongst the Mexicano?
E-I think it responded to several things. The first time it responded to our ethos of familia.
H-Uh huh.
E-It responded to the ethos of family gatheringH-Uh huh.
E-where everybody talks, everybody talks for it. It was very-it was very family based, even
though it was only for men, only-women came in later on, and that’s a different story why
women came into it. But it responded to the ethos of family. Also it responded to the ethos that
Latinos like to express themselves. Why-the charismatic movement, very powerful with Latinos.
H-Yeah.
E-Latinos love testimonies, they love testimony, they love to tell what’s going on. So I think it
responded to the Latino ethos without planning it that way. It started in Spain but became much
more affective in Latin America.
H-Uh huh. Why do you think it responded to Latino men so strongly?
E-It gave me a macho way of being Catholic. For example, they insist very much on saying the
Rosary with your arms outstretched, that was macho. I mean it was painful. You know you wear
the silicio, the prickly belt.
H-Uh huh.
E-That was very macho man, I could do it. It really was a macho spirituality. It was a masculine
spirituality which we never had.
H-Uh huh.
E-And so men felt proud of it, you know they felt proud that they had done the curcio, they felt
proud that they could kneel in front of the Blessed Sacrament and pour their heart out you know
on Señor. It really has a lot of aspects, I don’t think it’s ever been studied. I think it could be
studied, why it responded so strongly and how it-and why it had such incredible power of
transformation.
H-Uh huh.
E-I mean I saw men that were perdidos, borrachos, you know transforming an incredibly
powerful allegiance to the community.
H-Yeah.
E-Now the problem was that after a while their wives didn’t understand them anymore. And so
that’s why they started a Cursillo for women. Because in the beginning it was only for-women
were not allowed, it was a men’s movement. It partly started because, you remember it was part
of the Latino culture that church was for women, children, and old people but not for men.
H-Yeah.
E-I mean you remember that. Many of our men would walk out during the sermons and smoke a
cigarette haha.
H-Yeah.
E-They’d come back to church after the sermon you know haha. “Eso es ‘pa la viejas”
H-Yeah.
E-You know? And so this was an idea of really transforming men, that it was masculine to be a
church person. And then women were brought in like I said. In the beginning women could not
make the Cursillo unless her husband already made it.
H-Ah.
E-Because-the full reason was they couldn’t understand the husband- because all of a sudden the
husband wanted to get up early to go to mass in the morning. Well that was unheard of you
know? All of a sudden he wanted to go see-instead of going to the cantina he was going to the
Rosario. Well all these things, all of a sudden disturbed the family setting.
H-Did it work into your culture and faith, you know?
E-No not soH-thinking that yourE-Not explicitly, not explicitly.
H-Uh huh.
E-I think later on looking at it post factumH-Uh huh.
E-I think it corresponded very profoundly to the Latino ethos of expression, of family gatherings,
of spontaneous reflection you know?
H-Why do you think the fervor of the movement at those times did not, uh, did not continue? I
mean whyE-Well I think it would’ve continued. I think trouble came when the Church, mainly controlled
by non Hispanics. started to organize the Cursillo and tried to put it under national control,
national standards and I think that’s what started to kill it.
H-Uh huh.
E-I found in the beginning it was a very free flowing movement and people like wanted to
interview sometime like people like Tony Gonzalez, that preached from the Lubbock diocese.
H-Yeah.
E-Which was one of the great, great leaders in PADRES. I mean he revitalized a whole area that
had been very, very anti-Latino into-the whole area of Lubbock and the surrounding area came
alive through the Cursillo Movement.
H-Uh huh.
E-I mean that’s the person, it’s Sister Magdalena’s brother, Tony Gonzalez, he’s now retired in
Brownsville, I mean in Lubbock and that’s one you should interview about the Cursillo.
H-Is he still in Lubbock?
E-Yeah, he’s retired in Lubbock now.
H-This is not the Tony Gonzalez who was with the farm workers?
E-No that was a different one.
H-Yeah.
E-Yeah no he was not with the farm workers.
H-Ok. He’s the-this is-he’s still a priest?
E-Oh yeah, he’s still a priest yeah. Yeah but he did-he was amazing what he was doing. They
built a whole big Cursillo center that was the envy of the whole town you know?
H-Uh huh.
E-And the Cursillo-not because they had a lot of music in it, a lot of jokes, you know they were
an integral part of the Cursillo Movement.
H-Yeah.
E-Good jokes, good singing, good fraternity, it was a great experience.
H-But in-in-you know if you’re looking from your own intellectual transformation on the, you
know your own role in MACC and certainly MACC and many other movements as you
mentioned borrowed from some of that.
E-Oh MACC borrowed from all kinds of things.
H-Yeah right. ButE-We made a good stew out of a lot of ingredients.
H-Yeah right haha. Uh what-what would-the role of culture didn’t-culture was sort of implicit in
itE-That’s right.
H-rather thanE-It wasn’t spoken of directly.
H-Yeah.
E-No.
H-And uh would the transformation of Vatican II no longer putting the same emphasis on the
doctrine have impacted the content of the Cursillo?
E-It might have, I don’t know.
H-Uh huh. Um who-what else do you think we-we should have for the record, haha?
E-Well you’re just getting started haha. I mean those were kind of the forerunners of the
movement.
H-Yeah the movimiento.
E-Because later on you had all kinds of things to work on you know?
H-Yeah this is-we’re concentrating later ‘60s early ‘70s.
E-Yeah, yeah.
H-Um
E-No I think for late ‘60s early ’70s certainly you’ve interviewed people from PADRES already
and all those things were intertwined now. For example, Edmundo used to teach at MACC you
know?
H-Yeah.
E-And Peña used to come to MACC to give his-he used to have some kind of-movies he’d show,
oh, he’d make people boil when he’d come in, haha. Este and so a lot of those people were part
of MACC and MACC was simply kind of a centering of a lot of the other efforts.
H-Uh huh.
E-You know so those-everything was interrelated and everything’s interrelated. At the same
time, you know, we started promoting Latino music. Carlo, Rosas came around and started
promoting our own composersH-Right.
E-so we started teaming up with our artists, you know, we started promoting muralists, started
promoting murals-so a lot of those things, you know there a lot of elements, it wasn’t any one
thing.
H-Uh huh.
E-It wasn’t any one thing that came up but gradually we were deepening ourselves. You know,
the more we talked, the more we worked, the more we interviewed people the more we were
deepening ourselves.
H-Uh huh.
E-That’s at the roots of all this. So it was a constant growth-it was a constant process of growing
our own selves because we were discovering ourselves, we were discovering ourselves who we
were and what some of the deeper issues might beH-Uh huh.
E-that we had not suspected. So again we realized when we started we were a bunch of locos
who just said ‘Hey, something has to be done’ haha.
H-Uh huh.
E-You know? And we got started, we didn’t have time to wait. And but in the very doing we
were learning and we were discovering and we were picking up a little bit here, a little bit there,
a little bit there and so forth. So as you said earlier, MACC itself was a pulling together of many,
many things.
H-In uh-among the activist priests, were there some who that, uh, moving into this whole
reflection of faith and culture was a luxury versus the activism on the streets orE-I never encounteredH-feeding the hungry andE-Yeah, I never encountered that, if it was there I certainly never encountered it.
H-Uh huh.
E-I saw it as a deeper way because the hung-the poor also have hunger for self awareness, you
know? And-I mean the poor also have hunger for knowledge.
H-Uh huh.
E-It’s not just for food. I mean Jesus himself said ‘not by bread alone’.
H-Yeah.
E-So working with the poor did not mean that we just-in fact we could all-if we just help them
materially, we could hurt them spiritually.
H-Yeah.
E-And so it was not an either or. And I don’t think I-if the opposition was there I certainly never
encountered it.
H-Was their any opposition from any circles?
E-Well some people, yeah of course, some people claimed we were trying to create a parallel
church.
H-Uh huh.
E-So it was-and we kept saying ‘no it was the opposite. There is a parallel church now we’re
trying to bring it together’ haha you know? And so-no there was some opposition.
H-Was it older priests?
E-Some older and some younger, not just priests, some nuns, some lay people.
H-Uh huh.
E-I mean some of the things going on with MACC you know sometimes ideas-a scuttlebutt went
out that we were doing crazy things you know so people like Bishop Drury and Bishop Garcia
became very upset with MACC because supposedly we were doing some kind of kinky masses
or somethingH-Yeah.
E-which we were not. But sometimes you know what people say that you’re doing is very
different from what you’re doing. So, yeah, there was opposition, there was opposition uh but I
would say more than opposition there was support. There was support from the National
Bishop’s Conference, great support from Cardinal Bernadine, great, great support from Cardinal
Bernadine, from Archbishop Rowledge, Bishop Rowledge rather, Michael Sheehan who’s now
archbishop of Santa Fe. His story should be told, he’s probably the great savior of MACC when
MACC was about to crumble. He came in and just became one of the great saviors. He was
associate secretary general in Washington. See MACC was best from the beginning, I started on
the bishop’s advisory board. So we were advising the bishops on every single issue that came
before the bishops, not just Hispanic issues.
H-Uh huh.
E-So MACC immediately started to have a lot national, international input you know that it wasso it was-it’s uh-they were exciting years. They were not without its pain, not with its struggling.
H-How long were you in MACC?
E-Eleven-I went to the cathedral what in ’83 I think, so since it’s foundation I was in the-then I
was you know for a few years MACC didn’t want me to leave and I was already working over at
the cathedral, that’s when Father Rosendo came in.
H-Uh huh.
E-And so I was there till about ’83 I think.
H-Uh huh.
E-’83 yeah, yeah that’s correct because then I left it-I left the cathedral in ’95, that’s twelve
years. Yeah, that’s correct. In ’83 I left-I think I official left in ’85, but I think I really left it in
’83. H-Uh huh. And you began there-what year did it begin with-did youE-In the ‘70s.
H-In the ‘70s?
E-Yeah early ‘70s yeah.
H-Uh were you-were you the first one who took-who took the case to the Catholic bishops?
E-I did.
H-You did.
E-Yeah.
H-That was before the structure was there right?
E-After it was presented by the vocation directors.
H-Yeah, right.
E-Yeah.
H-Ok.
E-Yeah, yeah. I prepared the documentation for them, they presented it.
H-I see.
E-Yeah.
H-Great.
E-Good well it gives you some beginnings.
H-Yeah, thank you so much.
E-Oh that wasH-You have an 11:30 right?
E-Yeah.