UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Interview #292
SMITH1, DONALD K.
SMITH, Donald K. (1915-1999)2
Graduate Student; Professor of Speech; Vice President of UW System
At UW: 1939-1942; 1946-1949; 1973-1986
First Interview
Interviewed: 1984
Series: Merger
Interviewers: Laura Smail and Martin Dowling
Length: 3.5 hours
Background; Development of speech departments; Position at Wisconsin High;
Gladys Borchers; Changes in field of speech; Speech Department in 1930s and
1940s; UW doctoral program; Political views in late 1930s; Campus atmosphere;
Appointment as UW System vice president; Plans for review of academic program
structure and effect of 1973 budget cuts; Lack of personnel policy and interim
measures; Problems of liberal governors in 1970s; Failure of Governor Patrick
Lucey's staff appointees to understand University; 1975 budget cuts; Issue of Ph.D.
programs; Responsibility of faculty for quality of programs; Government intrusion
in University affairs; Rigidity of UW budget; Problems with new sabbatical
system; Recent changes in attitude toward Merger; Lucey's lack of understanding
of University.
Second Interview
Interviewed: 1987
Series: Merger
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 3.5 hours
Protection of UW's special status in 1970s; Retrenchment budgets; Mission
statements; Handling layoffs; Impact of collective bargaining bill for state
employees on UW salaries; John Weaver and Edwin Young; Central administration
staff; Legislature's increasing control over UW; Department of Administration's
1
DKS Memorial Symposium of April 29, 2000 is available on CD in the OHP Supplementary Tape
collection. This includes such speakers as Irving Shain, Katharine Lyall, David Ward, Yi Fu
Tuan. See folder for detailed information.
2
See also joint interview with H. Edwin Young, #324.
Donald K. Smith (#292)
attempts at educational planning; Scope Report; Decline in state funds for UW;
Governor Patrick Lucey's policies and their effects; Restrictions on University;
Sabbaticals; Key legislators; Governor Anthony Earl's treatment of University;
Salary freeze; Necessity for UW flexibility in money matters; Legislative Audit
Bureau; TA collective bargaining bill; Lobbying by University; Board of Regents.
First Interview Session
Tape 1/Side 1
00:00:01
Introduction.
00:00:24
Born in Belgrade, Nebraska. Father a farmer, owner of a general store. Mother a
college educated school teacher. Both believed in importance of higher
education, put six through college. Moved to Kearney, Nebraska, to attend
Kearney State Teachers College. Describes careers of siblings.
00:03:54
Importance of education in his family life.
00:05:03
Kearney State a modest institution. Joined debate team, a valuable
experience. Importance of debate and theatre in careers of speech Ph.D.'s.
Influenced by a teacher there from Harvard.
00:08:44
First teaching job was high school English and history. Hired to replace a debate
coach. Decided to go to graduate school but not sure which field. Took a
summer program in speech at University of Iowa, 1937, on recommendation of
the debate coach he had replaced.
00:10:21
Relation of debate and speech. Discusses terminology, historical meaning of
`rhetoric'.
00:15:08
Effort to find a home for various popular interests (theatre, debate, etc.) in 20th
century departmentalized university systems resulted in Speech departments.
00:16:15
Followed his debate coach colleague to Madison, became roommates, summer
session of 1938. Not very expensive, financed out of teaching salary.
00:18:31
1938-39 high school principal in Kimball, Nebraska. Wisconsin High School
offers English and speech teaching job. Took the job because he could continue
Ph.D. work, and he liked Madison.
00:22:01
Teachers at Wisconsin High mostly advanced graduate students who made a
career of high school education.
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Donald K. Smith (#292)
00:23:16
Comments on one of his colleagues, G. L. Borchers, and her ideas regarding
teaching and teachers.
00:29:12
End of side.
Tape 1/Side 2
00:29:14
More on DS and Borchers' views on teaching.
00:34:06
Her seminars very good, held at her apartment.
00:36:59
Naivete of research in the speech field early in the century. Difficulty of coming
to grips with communicative processes as complex and inaccessible. True of
many fields at this time; behaviorism in psychology popular, yet naive.
00:39:34
Borchers concerned with difference between oral and written style. DS thinks
this is fundamental misconception about relationship of language and
behavior. Thinks this line of research dead ended.
00:42:18
Speech department grossly overworked while DS in graduate school. Efforts to
find intellectual unity of department. Large departments fragmenting,
1930-50. DS's doctoral program thinly spread over many areas: linguistics,
phonetics, speech pathology, semantics, philosophy, argumentation, symbolic
logic, rhetoric, literary criticism, radio and theater.
00:50:10
DS fascinated with his field. Quotes Everett Hunt, speech Ph.D. from Cornell,
who remarked that speech is an excellent field for someone who is undecided
about what to study, because it touches so many fields.
00:53:01
Took courses in history, French, German languages also.
00:54:33
Consciousness of development of politics in Europe. Member of Nebraska
branch of Oxford movement. Distaste for Nazism, but felt that Hitler was a
clown and would not last. Discusses naivete of the Oxford movement and
pacifist position.
00:58:59
End of side.
Tape 2/Side 1
00:59:00
Interest in current history. Impressions of Europe c. 1939, still no threat to world
peace.
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Donald K. Smith (#292)
01:00:58
Impressions of Spanish Civil War. Knew two men in Kearney who joined
Lincoln Brigade. Also two Irish friends of DS joined Communist Party. Not
immune to these influences, even in Nebraska.
01:04:03
DS never a TA. Recalls influential people in grad school: Weaver, Ewbank,
Henry, Robert West, Gertrude Johnson, Rusty Lane, head of theatre. Harold
McCarty and Gerry Bartell of WHA. Fred, Haberman closest friend while DS
at Minnesota, supervised transition of UW speech department from an eclectic
one into a formidable, focused department. Haberman came in 1948.
01:09:17
After war, came back as instructor in College of Education. Supervised practice
teachers, also conducted laboratory sessions on teacher training.
01:10:06
Knew Weaver only through course work under him. DS not active participant in
speech department in graduate school. Weaver aided DS's return from
Minnesota.
01:12:50
Change in department in 1940s. Graduate studies had occurred mostly in the
summer session because most worked as teachers during the year. Faculty
augmented by visiting professors every summer. Many students, classes
large. Now summer sessions are nearly empty. Most students today come
directly from college. Change occurred with heightened enrollments and change
in residence requirements.
01:17:51
UW reputation in late 1930s part of what brought DS here. Madison a
wonderland compared to Iowa City. University reputation as innovative and
forward looking. Familiar with the experimental college. Capital Times an
exciting newspaper. State political life robust.
01:21:54
Interested in the progressive party. Liked LaFollette, but distressed with his
conflict with Glenn Frank. Comments on Wisconsin politics.
01:26:57
End of side.
Tape 2/Side 2
01:26:59
Reputation of UW as a peoples' university. Found all the professors
accessible. Style in the community startled him at first. Full dress dances, black
tie and tuxedo dinners. Glenn Frank very fashion conscious, entertained with
great ceremony. Relaxation of formality has occurred since then. Different from
Minnesota campus, which was dead on the weekends because of commuter
population.
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Donald K. Smith (#292)
01:34:10
No great preference for either Minnesota or UW. Similar in many ways.
01:35:32
Wisconsin idea not replicated at Minnesota. University of Minnesota less
provincial or chauvinistic than Wisconsin. But, Minneapolis community in
general more chauvinistic about its arts and culture than Madison.
01:39:18
End of side.
Tape 3/Side 1
00:00:40
His responsibilities at Minnesota. 1971 decided to take administrative
leave. Then got word from Robert Clodius who wanted a resident director for
Indonesia project in development of agricultural higher education. DS interested,
good way to spend his sabbatical year, actually would be two years. After being
in Djakarta six months got a call from Weaver . Wanted senior academic vice
president.
00:06:12
Decided was interested. Went through search and screen process. Describes
it. Thirty people. Robert Bock of graduate school was chairman. After
committee interview, met with regents. On way back to Djakarta, but Weaver
asked him to stop in Denver, which he did and was persuaded to take the
job. Agreed to a minimum of four years. Fall, 1972. Had to finish out year in
Djakarta. Would start in fall. Got President Musse in Minneapolis who agreed.
00:09:44
Had read the budget but was naive about what was going to take place. More
interesting than he expected. Had read the interim act, but not the final Chapter
36--had read draft copies of committee`s recommendation. Troubled by some
parts but was told by Weaver and by Frank Pelisek who was to be president of
merged board of regents, that no amendments possible. Compromises had been
difficult enough. Clear that role of system was planning and coordination of
higher education on statewide basis, short and long term planning. DS was
interested in program review, review of structure of academic programs. Theory
of doing that underdeveloped in entire nation. Integrating budget policy and
academic policy interested him. Thought would be possible to maintain
autonomy for chancellors and institutions. His hopes as to what could be
accomplished. Effect of Lucey's subsequent budget cuts on his plans. The idea
of productivity investment. The theory.
00:14:57
The l973-75 biennium. 7% budget cut; enrollment decline. The dilemma,
because of lack of personnel policy protocol. Interim policies and procedures DS
set up. Comments once Lucey's policy and necessity for constant state of crisis
management.
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Donald K. Smith (#292)
00:17:44
Q. re Lucey's expectations. Comments on liberal governors' problems in
1970s. Governors' suspicion of University management. Bright young men
brought in. Bob Dunn brought in. Al Wil de another one. Had more feeling
for Wisconsin tradition than Dunn. Jim Wood. Lucey brought them in and
then got them established in state jobs. They were uninformed about the productivity of UW-Madison. A low cost University with very high. They thought state
couldn't afford its high reputation in higher education. DS thinks there was less
fat in UW higher education system than almost any other state in the country.
00:29:11
End of side.
Tape 3/Side 2
00:29:14
Almost first university in country to face severe budget cuts in 1970s. 1975
another budget cut. The analysis papers from the Department of Administration
(DOA). Most of them ridiculous. Suggestions untenable. Told if didn't like
their proposals, to find their own way of weeding out $40,000,000.
00:31:32
1975. Lucey asked regents to prepare a report on how they could pare down
costs through cutting out 2-year centers. Smith's report. Done in 3
months. Message was if cut out institutions, access is cut out. Access, quality,
and costs the iron triangle.
00:33:56
Madison assimilated cost reductions and maintained quality. Undergraduate
program may have suffered, though still one of best in public schools. Can't be
restored without new investment. His own department an example. Thinks
Madison not favored over other institutions.
00:37:25
Asked about achievements. The mission statements. Established resolve not to
have any more Ph.D. programs. Discusses.
00:42:05
On the state personnel policies. Worked closely with Madison.
00:46:21
Changed from system, audit and review, to system, review of academic
programs. Purpose was to have faculty of institutions be responsible for quality
of own programs. They're more amenable when purpose is for quality rather than
economy.
00:47:48
Question, how merger affected dealing with state government. DS feels a
university ought to be able to preserve distance from politics. Merger an
extension of political ambition rather than a consequence. Talking about
governments being a threat to society. Example of intrusion. Position
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Donald K. Smith (#292)
control. Telling UW administration how many people it can appoint. Violating a
law if they make additional appointments. A major instrument of power over a
university. Stupid from management point of view. Wasteful. Can't move
money around in budget. Potentially could limit number of full
professors. Some legislators did understand the problem. Budget system in
Wisconsin more rigid than almost any other state higher education system, in
constraints it puts on regents in moving money from one category of budget to
another.
00:57:01
End of side.
Tape 4/Side 1
00:57:03
Attempt to introduce sabbatical system. UW only big research university in Big
10 without a sabbatical system. Legislature agreed, but sharp limit on
number. $175,000 involved. Not much. And then have to report on use of each
of the unfunded leaves, and what its productivity has been. Would cost $150,000
in administrative time to make the report. Perhaps should have turned down the
leave system rather than take it as offered.
01:00:54
Would separate negotiating on part of each institution ease the
situation? Yes. Collective bargaining might force disaggregation because it
would put an end to faculty governance. Having single personnel policy, single
board of regents, would become confusing beyond belief. Now political impulse
is in favor of realizing things went too far. Quite a few leaders now speak of
undoing damage have done to budget. Realize not saving money by trying to run
UW out of state government. Good will based on economic distress of
state. Suddenly aware that strong research university is an asset to economic
future of state.
01:06:21
How can the government be prevented from seriously and permanently damaging
university? Conversation with Lucey. DS was angry. Pointed out reputation of
UW. Pointed out that Madison a country town between Chicago and
Minneapolis. Wisconsin has cows and green fields and one asset, the UW--the
one thing that has made the state distinctive. Lucey just smiled. DS mentions
again the new liberal management notion of mid-70s. May have hoped merged
system would reduce scope of system and give more strength to Madison, but
politically that was unreal. In 1975 analysts in DOA were writing secret paper on
which 4-year institutions ought to close. Platteville, La Crosse, River Falls,
Superior--four on western border. Then Stout and Eau Claire. They wanted to
take out River Falls. Circulated draft report while Lucey out speaking at River
Falls saying next hundred years to be more glorious. Report was leaked to
System administration. The outrage. Lucey's response in report to regents, that
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Donald K. Smith (#292)
the System itself would have to prepare to reduce itself. 1975. He could dream
of protecting rather than eroding Madison, but it wasn't a good understanding of
higher education or of history and demography of state of Wisconsin.
01:13:35
End of session.
Second Interview Session
Tape 5/Side 1
00:00:19
Protection for Madison's special status in the '70s; importance of minimal role for
System; the retrenchment budget of '73-'75; termination of tenured faculty in
WSU system; lack of planning for merger; the three tasks Smith faced in summer
of '73--get mission statements, set up audit and review system, set up way of
managing layoffs; circumstances under which merger could harm Madison--Earl
and O'Neil; Board of Regents; importance of mission statements; keeping land
grant status for Madison; how the collective bargaining bill for state
employees affected UW salaries; TAUWF's push for equal salaries; the
regionalism of legislators; the state finally facing up to necessity of salary
differential.
Tape 5/Side 2
00:44:15
Key legislators during catchup; people to interview; friction between Weaver and
Young; others to interview; Percy's ambitions and his appointment; appointment
of Smith; Smith-Percy relations; structure of Central Administration; Percy's
traits.
Tape 6/Side 1
00:00:17
Relations with legislature. Tendency to concentrate on personalities--friendly
ones, difficult ones. Now thinks friendliness and hostility not a major factor in
what happens to University. In '73 and '75 budget matters decided in Lucey 's
office. By 1975 beginning to lose control of legislature, e.g. DOA having more
trouble controlling legislature on budget items. The 1977 budget--clear Lucey's
ability to control legislature very diminished. Legislators taking control.
Operating assumptions were that university system too big; that enrollments were
going to drop. Surrealistic experience.
00:04:36
Enrollment projections. Earl's DOA people doing long range fiscal stratagems and
educational planning stratagems without knowing anything about it ten years
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Donald K. Smith (#292)
before demographic data showed any downturn. System predictions clear. 1983
or '84 the downturn, perhaps 1987.
00:06:15
Scope report--produced under maximum duress from Earl's office. Set an
envelope of possibilities. Smith has discussed with Camma ck . Less than 1%
off in 1984. Social acceptability of education changes. Discusses.
00:11:26
In 1970s wanted access to education, but also to save money. Lucey had plenty
of money. Used it elsewhere. Wanted to increase local assistance for property
tax relief. A big program for Democrats. Hasn't happened; no decrease in
property taxes. Frustrating to Lucey . Proportion of state funds to System
declined from 35% in 1971 to 14%; going to welfare, medical care, highway,
school aids.
00:16:03
Smith doesn't think Lucey intended to harm University. Thought could save on
management. Educators fuddy duddies in management. Horrifying notions of
what constituted duplication; had no notion what a University was. Audit didn't
stop it. Congratulated University, but then forgot about it. Still doing it. Dale
Cavanaugh knows false, but as Mr. Integrity he is positioning the legislature
where they want to be positioned. Very skillful.
00:21:01
The bright-young-men approach of Lucey. Cost effective analysis of all budget
items. Management Information System. The capacity of Cost Benefit Analysis
to produce efficient budgets in a public agency is limited.
00:23:19
Ideal was to increase productivity. A term totally ambiguous in relation to
education. What are proxies for productivity? People trying all over country to
come up with them. Zero base budgeting. How demonstrate getting more for
same money. The greatest proxy in education, meaningless, is student credit
hours. Proxy for how hard faculty work--student contact hours, student credit
hours, number of courses? All different numbers. None of them more than an
artifact.
00:26:10
Smith's arguments to legislators. How to use data. What do numbers mean?
According to proxies historians work harder than professors of classics. In
reality, not.
00:27:54
Some of people downtown know has limited use. Smith, talking to academic
vice chancellors, would try to explain why wanted certain data.
Tape 6/Side 2
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Donald K. Smith (#292)
00:30:44
Position he kept trying to establish was that legislators don't know how to run
universities--don't have time or experience, and aren't supposed to be operational
managers. Until they accept that fact, and governors also, nor their staffs, and
begin delegating responsibility to the people who can do it, without constant
harassment, this thing won't straighten out. Percy gets bad rap. At a hearing
before Lucey, Percy ridiculed productivity. Was reprimanded by Lucey for
making a joke. Scorching. Percy worked hard to get legislature to understand
danger of using proxies.
00:35:08
Smith found Earl more approachable, at least didn't make you feel as if you were
interrupting important business. Nusbaum had difficult job--constructing new
basis for budget in state. A lot of people think Percy collaborated in design of
1973 budget. Smith doesn't think is true. Worked with them. Tried to be
cooperative. But not source of problem. Problem is assumption that bringing
new management practices to sleepy old universities will solve everything.
00:37:56
Percy also sound on stricture on pre-audits. Don't set up rules telling us how we
make our decisions. They were doing it all the time. Example, the sabbatical
system. Regents preempted by law from creating one. No money. Only way
were research grants. Legislature finally began to take seriously talk about
faculty renewal. Asked for faculty development money. Sabbaticals have to be
free. Reward for years of work. System put in a bill. Didn't ask for money.
Instead of approval, entitlement rewritten by subcommittee of Joint Finance
Committee. Limited to 25 or 30 a year. Restrictions on how money was used.
00:44:52
Kleczka, co-chair, Joint Finance Committee. University just wastes money.
Don't pay people to loaf. System was to report to DOA on how sabbaticals
awarded. An example of pre-auditing. System debated whether to accept.
Decided worth getting legislature to acknowledge value of sabbaticals. Hope for
loosening up of terms. In last session, considerable relaxation. Still excessively
monitored. Cost more to monitor than cost of sabbaticals.
00:48:53
When trying to get Joint Finance Committee to change amendment, Kleczka was
most animated and dogmatic opponent. Had majority of votes. A national
mood against higher education. The recent statement by Pennsylvania governor.
Belief that universities should do more assessment. All right unless becomes
regulatory procedure in which case destructive.
00:52:58
Smith's irritation with Jackamonis. Ugliest politician in Smith's experience;
didn't have a political career. People afraid of him. Things would have been
easier if Norm Anderson had been speaker, but assumptions would have been
same. A legitimate question, how to manage funds in huge budgets.
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Donald K. Smith (#292)
00:56:43
Dreyfus and Earl said University important to economy of state, but didn't act that
way. Smith hopes Klauser and Thompson will believe it and act on it. Some of
the most obnoxious regulatory legislation in last fifteen years occurred during
Earl's administration. Most strange was salary freeze accompanied by loud blast
that UW had not been forthcoming on its hopes for salaries and had misled him,
even though he had been participant in developing the process which said the
University didn't submit its salary request until about February or March. Even
before the University's formal request and analytical papers, he announced the
freeze.
00:59:25
Smith stayed on with O'Neil until July 1. Was on Faculty Compensation
Commission.
Tape 7/Side 1
01:00:42
Earl was governor when the legislature made its fuss about dorm funds. Didn't
try to protect University. Seemed to agree UW got caught with fingers in cookie
jar. Manifest interference in management of budget surpluses. Classic example
of punishing University's budget.
01:02:51
No steps undertaken to relax constraints on movement of money from one budget
to another. Governor had power to do that. University Committee worked on
him to do it. Submitted major document, had to do with catch-up pay but also
other matters. Will be raised in current regent planning document. Shaw has
taken it up.
01:05:34
University needed better protection from Legislative Audit Bureau's raids on
history of program review. Nothing came out of governor's office on that. True
this is LAB, not DOA but people in DOA know that that report left a lot to be
desired in terms of good history and something out of the governor's office would
have been a great help. He did make speech about too much University bashing,
but next week back on waste and duplication. Smith didn't see that there was
much comprehension of what was really involved in delegation and flexibility for
the regents.
01:07:30
Earl signed collective bargaining bill for TAs against advice of everyone in
UW-Madison. May be one of most punishing things that have occurred if it
comes to pass. DER is agent. Retrograde step of major proportions. A favorite
agenda item of David Cl arenbach. He was being helped, made him a hero to his
constituents, not respect for University president or chancellor or faculty. If TAs
actually organize, will erode power of regents and of administrators. SUNY
chancellor says, "I've become a contract manager." One of most devastating
blows that has been struck.
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Donald K. Smith (#292)
01:11:09
If Earl reelected, would have collective bargaining. Thompson says a dead issue.
May back down on academic staff. If TAs do organize, may find bargaining
with Department of Employee Relations not what they bargained for. May find
DER will take advice from regents and president, or may be punishing in its own
decisions. Not a foregone conclusion that they will be sympathetic. Two-edged
sword when you put yourself in hands of legislature.
01:13:17
Smith doesn't subscribe to belief that the University could rescue itself by more
effective lobbying. Not opposed to good PR and it left a lot to be desired in
1970, partly because relationship between System and government being
formulated in 1970. Regent Grover primary drum beater ever since got on board.
Extraordinarily antagonistic to Lemon and Breuscher. Put pressure on Smith to
put pressure on Young to reconstruct public relations. Had a friend as a
candidate for the position. Dean Bowles in Education. Bowles pushed Grover's
career from beginning.
01:18:49
Grover putting pressure on Smith thought Lemon and Breuscher were dedicated
and loyal.
01:20:15
Grover constantly trying to get a friend of his in to an administrative position in
the System. Ignored procedures built into Merger legislation by Bowen and
Penniman and accepted by regents.
01:28:00
Grover would tell Smith to have an audit group come up with a particular
decision. Irritated if it didn't. Would call report worthless.
01:28:50
One big temper tantrum he had was on a very small item. Was angry with Smith.
Wanted budget item to continue North Central Evaluation Program. System
decided to divest itself of program. Grover objected.
Tape 7/Side 2
01:30:51
A pebble in a big money budget. Said would move an amendment to include the
$60,000. Smith said minuscule, had no strong feelings. Entitled to do that. So
he made the motion. Then one of regents asked Smith whether System had
considered it. Smith said yes, gave reasons for dropping it. Regents voted it
down. Grover said "Administration had better pay attention to what the board
wants." Wouldn't support the budget. Smith had his own small tantrum. Said
if felt that way about the University, ought to resign. Discussion of board.
Laswell quote. Important for universities to pay attention to public
communications but most fundamental instrument is belief in ourselves.
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Donald K. Smith (#292)
01:38:24
At first meeting, O'Neil mostly silent. Pleasant, nice, sophisticated. His
speeches. Ed Young doesn't believe in eloquence. Smith thinks he undervalues
it. An anecdote.
01:43:39
Catch-up wouldn't have been necessary, or big committee study, if Earl had paid
attention in January to what they were telling him about the freeze. The big
decline in salaries under Dreyfus because of his cutting back on amounts actually
made available. Superimpose a freeze on that, while most universities increasing
salaries, gap will be disastrously large. He ignored that advice. Put in the
freeze, and pitifully small increase for second biennium. They had suggested
offering significant increase if state budget situation picked up. But he gave only
3.5 allocation in second year. Iowa only one worse. Situation in Madison
disastrous and he agreed to the study group. Smith doesn't know who's idea that
was. Thinks was Earl's idea, kind of trade-off. Finger pointing between Earl
and O'Neil. Earl blaming O'Neil for faculty reaction. O'Neil saying hadn't
anticipated anything would be done until University had made its formal
submission on the budget.
01:48:56
When we left Earl's office after that meeting, we said, if you can't at least release
the freeze, can you put in a fund for salaries for patchwork, and he seemed to say
he would. That was Friday. Monday, understood was to be done. In middle of
Joint Committee (JOKER) Earl sent an emissary saying couldn't support fund if
became part of a base, only one time. Earl claimed O'Neil had said in December
that increases in operating budget higher priority than salaries. But O'Neil meant
4% as against 8% salary increases, not freeze. Smith doesn't know why two of
them chatting about priorities, that is, why would be considered a signal. Doesn't
excuse either one, particularly governor, for taking this as final word. Should
have looked into it much more deeply.
01:53:26
Smith not on task force.
01:54:04
The Governor's Task Force. Fannie LeMoine enormously well prepared.
Doris Hanson said DOA should determine peer groups. That was equivalent to
victory, since if they set up two different peer groups, they will see enormous
discrepancy between Madison and its peers, and the cluster campuses and their
peers. DOA worked with a respectable peer group, more favorable to Madison
than one System would have used--Big Ten. DOA used crosshatch of public
research and Big Ten and top twenty. Her bureaucratic tendencies led her to
stick to what the facts showed. A politician might have maneuvered around
them. Smith was appalled when she was chosen to chair, but it worked out all
right.
END
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