H-So are-the last thing we were talking about was the roles that priests plays, or that we all play
as Christians.
R-Well in the Catholic Church, because we’re so Christo-centric, and he is the supreme example.
H-Uh huh.
R-We say that in Christ, you see in him, the priesthood, royalty, and prophetic persons and that
we should imitate Christ in all things especially in these three. And I’m saying that the tendency
as humans, we love the priest role, the robes and all those external paraphernalia that we like to
use many times at the cost of the real essence of what they represent.
H-Uh huh.
R-And we love the regalness of it but when it comes to the prophetic role, that is painful, we
shirk from it. You knowH-In the prophetic role that you played um, how was that received by your brother priests, by
your family, by your friends? You talked a little bit about how they reacted to the program on
Hunger in America, but this was a little clip of all the things you were doing.
R-Yeah. Yeah. You know the work that-first of all living in a time of prophecy-just because you
jump into the water doesn’t make you are water. And just because I lived in the time of prophecy
doesn’t mean I’m a prophet. It was just the season.
H-Uh huh.
R-If it was winter, I wear clothes-I wear clothing. You put on what is necessary for that
particular situation. It happened that-what happened at the inner city and all these social
revolutions happened not because somebody was inspired and studied something new. For years,
nature, society, the environment was preparing, was being disposed to become what it becomes.
H-Uh huh.
R-When a child-and I’m using this opportunity not just to tell my experience, but now in
retrospect, in thinking about it, why, why did it happen? Not my experience but the world I was
living in. In what manner, not so much that I affected it, but how it affected me. And so you find
for example, when a child is born, it’s an infant. That infant is not born today and twenty four
hours later becomes a teenager, and then twenty four hours later becomes an adult. That little
infant, everyday become disposed to, becomes-not to become, but to acquire something else and
begins to develop. As he disposes himself for further development, it happens. Then it begins to
develop to expose-to-it begins to prepare for further development and then it becomes.
H-Uh huh.
R-So it’s a continual becoming. That becoming, that preparation to become doesn’t make this
individual a different person. That child is the same-substantially the same, but the stages change
from infant, to childhood, to young adult, etc, etc. We are who we are from the very beginningH-Uh huh.
R-but we go through stages. Life goes through stages. You go from the priestly to the proph-to
the royal, and then all this time, as you go through this, you’re being disposed for the next stepH-Uh huh.
R-for the next step. So now, everything is now prepared and disposed to become-to enter into a
different environment, into a different world, the world of the prophetic era, into a different
level, the prophetic era.
H-And you see this development within yourself?
R-I see-no I saw that-I lived as this new era began to surface.
H-Uh huh.
R-And I happened to be there during this time. As were you, as were others even though they did
not recognize it.
H-Uh huh.
R-Now the difference between me and those that were there at the same time and the steps that I
took and the steps that others didn’t take was perhaps that I comfort where I come from, my
experience as a child, as I was growing up, in the seminary, my having been a priest and my
vocation as I saw it was to serve others, all these things came to play. But it was not I nor people
like myself who brought about the prophetic thing.
H-Uh huh.
R-We happen to have been born in the advent of this prophetic cycle happening. Then the cycle
disappearedH-Yeah.
R-and the new cycle, the pendulum, went into a different era.
H-Uh huh.
R-A different stage.
H-That-you know taking some of what you have said and applying it to the period you were
working at the courts, you-when you asked to go back to the projects, you, even from what you
say today, you didn’t see yourself becoming what you became.
R-No. First of all, I don’t know what I became.
H-Uh huh.
R-The thing is-see, we were trained for mission. Mission, missio, it means to be sent.
H-Uh huh.
R-And I saw my mission in the barrio.
H-Uh huh.
R-I saw, mira Gilbert, I saw that the traditional incubation of Christians in the church was
outdated, wasn’t helping us in anything.
H-Uh huh.
R-I saw that those who were supposed to be our protectors and our friends got too paternalistic
and they won’t do and they won’t let us do. I saw this.
H-Uh huh.
R-Somehow, I felt that in the seminary, but you kept quiet. I tried not-I didn’t keep quiet one
time, I almost go smacked. And I’ll tell you about it.
H-Uh huh.
R-We were in theology class, we were give assignments to talk on the thoughts of Thomas
Aquinas who was the Jesus Christ in the seminary, he could not err, Thomistic Theology. And I
happened to admit, I had gone to a Franciscan seminary. There they have there own Thomas
Aquinas called Duns Scottus, And this fellow colleague, friend of mine, and attributes Thomas
Aquinas a certain doctrine but it wasn’t Thomas Aquinas, Thomas had said something else and
Duns Scotus had corrected him. And of course after gave the talk I told him, ‘Thomas didn’t say
that. Thomas said this, Duns Scotus said this. You quoted Duns Scotus *name of Don 9:38* not
Thomas.’ And from behind me comes the professor ready to kill me. I had to go like this
*mimics a gesture protecting himself* you know?
H-Uh huh.
R-He would have smacked me. He had-he was kind of a character because I had almost
blasphemed. That night I got called by the rector. And he says, ‘I understand that you were
disrespectful to Father…..blah blah blah blah’ you now? I said, ‘Father Rector, this is exactly
what happened. Where you want to go from here, I don’t know, but the man almost hit me.’ And
I left, nothing else happened.’
H-Uh huh.
R-That-what I’m trying to say-what I’m trying to say is that you keep quiet if you want to get
wherever you want to get. But I became ordained my friend and within six months, I was moving
the wheels. They could not disordain me anymore. Even now they cannot disordain me anymore.
And with all respect, I went to the-no, if I was anything, the only time that it appeared that I
disobeyed my superior was when I made an interpretation for him because it was an emergency.
But I was a straight shooter, I walked the line, I never disobeyed my superiors.
H-Uh huh.
R-I only had one pastor, Joe Novak, and thank God for him because he formed me after the
seminary, after that I was on my own.
H-Uh huh.
R-So at any rate, we were talking about these cycles. And this cycle that I’m talking about
happens in all of creation. Why should we be any different? Why should institutions form and
inform by man, be any different than with…
H-When-when you went into working in the projects and the longer you lived there obviously
the more personally and directly aware you became of their living conditions. Was there any one
event or one particular really shocking event that made it very clear that you had made the right
decision? That you had to be there-that you had to encourage them to speak out and you yourself
spoke out.
R-You know, Gilbert, I cannot recall one day that was dull.
H-Uh huh.
R-Everyday was a beautiful day. Something always was happening that was good. That little
house on Chihuahua and Pinto, the inner city, was always full of people. Sister Rachael from
this community at Our Lady of the Lake, she was a social worker for the inner city. That lady
was unstoppable, unstoppable. She saved my, como se llama, I don’t know how many times
because she knew the tricks of the game.
H-How’s this, tell me-give me an example.
R-When the FBI came to see me, I wasn’t there and she took their names, she wouldn’t give any
information, ‘Who are you’ blah blah blah blah blah.’ They did not identify themselves as FBIs,
they identified themselves as working for the Department of Agriculture or something like that.
She took all these notes, and when they got in touch with me again, I called a friend of mine in
Washington and asked, ‘Who are these guys’ and he said, ‘These are FBI agents’ because he
inquired, he was a lawyer, Harry Hughgy. And Rachael very quietly identified these guys that
these were the guys that were-they were the same ones.
H-Uh huh.
R-And when they finally came to visit with me, by that time I was prepared and I called
MALDEF, uh Obledo, Mario Obledo was then-the lawyer there. And he sat with me at my office
at the inner city there, but I had put some-I had put some recordings behind the radio to record
the whole conversation, haha.
H-Laughs
R-And-but uh I told him that-that was after I testified, then they could see me again. First they
came after the documentaryH-Uh huh.
R-and then they came after I testified because I pointed the finger at them, you know. I
mentioned that they were intimidating the poor. And so they came very humble, you know or
whatever and, a couple of Irishmen, and when they came in I had my lawyer in front of me so
they kind of-they behaved. And before they left, a couple came down to hear my blessing so I
feel awkward you know, haha I gave the blessing.
H-Laughs
R-That-Rachael-it’s one example, in a very quiet way, if she hadn’t taken this information,
which I would never have taken it, you know, they would’ve played tricks with me.
H-Did she work for the-did she work for the city agency or did she work for the Church?
R-No we paid her.
H-Uh huh.
R-The Church paid her. We got her a car and she was paid….at the time you know? That’s
another thing that I was-I think something should be done something about it. I have two sisters
that are nuns andH-Right.
R-AnywayH-Never get compensated for the, yeah.
R-Never, never. And Rachael, Sister Rachael was an examp- exemplary woman totally given to
the poor. Compassionate, a fighter in her own quite way. And boy all you could see was the veil
flying around you know …..just, she took care of those cases.
H-Uh huh.
R-Uh, an incredible woman.
H-Was she-was her role as a go-between the poor and the city agencies?
R-Yes she went to every agency, she was highly respected all over the place, she could move
mountains with those people. So just her clients alone kept the busy bee buzzing all the time,
haha. Yes.
H-How many-who else-you said at one time there was in that inner city house, it was you, Sister
was working for the-that unit, and you said another priest was there?
R-Father Matula. Well first Father Hanky was assigned with me at first, but then six months
later, the Vincentians left the seminary and the archbishop appointed diocesans as faculty.
H-Uh huh.
R-And appointed them as….as director, and Father Hanky as a spiritual director.
H-Uh huh.
R-So Hanky was yanked out of the inner city and put in a seminary. And then later on I was sent
Father MatulaH-Uh huh.
R-who had been pastor at Sacred Heart.
H-How did you two work together?
R-Oh, Larry was a great guy you know? Uh he was older in vocation than I was and he was used
to the regular things that are done you know you’re in the rectory people come to you. This
ministry was a different ministry.
H-Uh huh.
R-You don’t wait for people to come to you, you go to the people.
H-Uh huh.
R-And um, this was something that-also the constant-the constant pressures, the problems. For
example, we had a Jamaica at the you know at the courts at the main office on Brazos in the
back is a big yard, a big playground and we were sent tacitos and barbacoa and just having a get
together with the people of the area. And I had these two volunteers, Mr. Huron and his son in
law among others that were helping us around, moving things. Here come these three guys you
know and-pushing things around and breaking things, and I’d run and tell the guys to stop and all
of a sudden I see Huron-the guys running, and Huron goes after them. It was dark already and we
had two volunteer that came-I hadn’t seen them, they were there, but I hadn’t seen them yet. And
Huron runs after them and I said, ‘Huron’ and the other guy begins to shoot *mimics gunshots*
you know the three guys.
H-Uh huh.
R-And I run like behind Huron like that and then I tackled the guy and rolled them over because
the guys were crazy you know? And then I go like that and I see blood on my hands.
H-Uh huh.
R-I said, ‘Hrron’, te dieron en la madre you know, haha?
H-Yeah.
R-And what happened, they cut, in his kidney, they cut with a knife.
H-Hmm.
R-And he went-that’s why he went after them.
H-Uh huh.
R-And I thought they had shot him I had no idea they had cut him. But one of the bullets hit his
son in law and broke his wrist.
H-Uh huh.
R-I didn’t know that either. So when I was on Huron full of blood, I took him to my car and took
him to Santa Rosa Hospital. And when I was there he didn’t have insurance-
H-Uh huh.
R-and they didn’t want to take him. I said, ‘my name is Father Ruiz and my brother’s cuñado,
brother in law, worked there as a nurse. He said, ‘Father how are you?’ I said, ‘Fine, this man
had been injured at my work over there.’ So right away they took him in you know? And the
other guy, his son in law, was taken to the University, to Robert B. GreenH-Uh huh.
R-and was taken care of over there. But this is the kind of danger that was there all the time. Not,
I mean you find these kids that thought they were God, you know?
H-Uh huh.
R-And I think Larry found it, the first couple of months kind of tough. But then he caught on real
quickly and he took the bull by the horns. He was great. We worked very well together.
H-Uh huh.
R-Yeah.
H-So how many people did you work with approximately, you know, in the projects?
R-Well we worked not only in the projects but also outside the projects.
H-Uh huh.
R-The leadership uh-the lay leadership was about maybe sixty percent outside the project and
forty percent from the project. Uh in the project, in cada manzanilla, you know there was a
chairperson from that area. In the board we had maybe two or three from the courts.
H-Uh huh.
R-I think in general, those that lived outside the courts were better prepared. You know job wise,
economically secure more better than those in the courts, higher education, more articulate, more
secure, better leadership qualities, you know, but they all worked together. Before that, ‘Oh, son
de los courts,’ you know? Those that lived a block over from the courts, ‘Oh, son de los courts,’
but within two years, man they worked together you know? It was beautiful.
H-Uh huh.
R-UmH-Did the authorities within the Church recognize the value of you and Father Larry’s work in
the courts?
R-I think that, in fact I know, the authorities-I submitted to the Archbishop a report every month.
H-Uh huh.
R-Good news, bad news, whatever. One time I kept inviting the Archbishop, he finally came,
Lucy came to the inner city. And it was an experience for him and the people loved that he came.
And I told him, ‘Look archbishop, look at the people, you know, they love you,’ they did. Oh
they thought that if they touched the archbishop they were going to go to Heaven directly you
know.
Both Laugh
R- la gente es muy sentida. Pobre viejito, se sace; -I had a sofa, esta un poco rompidito, you
know, and people sit there and stuff like and se sienta y agarra el paño y se lo pone…
Both Laugh
R-Anyway, but he went and it was good. We publicized it, we had our newsletter.
H-Uh huh.
R-And that gave status to the inner city.
H-Uh huh.
R-Later on I realize this because of the feedback, it was not a renegade Church doing something,
you know-
H-Uh huh.
R-but it was connected to the Church totally and completely. I mean it was a very important
gesture.
H-Uh huh. Technically they belonged to what parish?
R-Guadalupe.
H-Guadalupe.
R-In fact, I was not a pastor I was assigned an assistant to Guadalupe, canonically, that’s the way
it had to be.
H-Uh huh.
R-And at that time I wanted to say mass outside the church in the various parks you know?
H-Uh huh.
R-And they didn’t want to because-the chancellery because you know, I don’t know anymore,
but at the time, the altar is big-in the front of the altar is a rock.
H-Right, with the relics.
R-With the relics, and you set the chalice there.
H-Uh huh.
R-And I had to have that rock to put there and to have it outside the church you know. But after a
while you know, I just, I had my debt with a carpenter make an altar, you fold it like chairs you
know?
H-Uh huh.
R-Put my little truck that I got almost for free and pack my little truck, set up my little tent you
know and people would come, even the dogs would come to mass you know?
Both Laugh
H-One of the tips from the funeral house. Yeah that’s good. So you said mass in different parts
of theR-Yeah, yeah, because I didn’t have a church. I had the little-Santa Cruz who is now a little
school there now. But that used to be used by the nuns who lived next doorH-Uh huh.
R-as a catechetical center. So I made it into a chapel and said mass in the little church on
Sundays there.
H-Uh huh.
R-And it was always packed.
H-So at the-you went to Sacred Heart, you came backR-for a couple of weeks.
H-forR-until later
H-you left Scared Heart for a couple of weeks and then came back and you were working in the
barrio there and you got more involved in the national organization PADRES, that we’ll have to
discuss at some length later on. Um what happened as you got more involved in the national
organization and less involved in the day to day serving in the inner city?
R-Well, you know, Gilbert, it was obvious that they wanted me out of there.
H-Uh huh.
R-And I began to be cut off little by little. ThenH-Who did you feel was cutting you off?
R-The Archbishop.
H-Uh huh. How-
R-he was the only one who could do it.
H-What do you mean by little by little?
R-Well the resources became more difficult to come by. Uh, I don’t know how prudent this
would be, but when I went to the Archbishop and told him that we’re gonna have the first
Congress of PADRES in Tucson, and some of the priests might not have the means to go, would
the chancellery-would he be willing to help finance the air flight to Tucson. And, you see, it’s a
good thing to be naïve, you know? I saw his face turn red when I got to the point. He said, ‘If
there’s anyone who needs my assistance, asked me to write me a letter requesting for it.’ I said,
‘Fine.’ So I go back to my home, sit down, type a letter, the Archbishop…., haha. And I sent him
a letter a month before the happening. I never heard from him and I waited and waited. I got to
go anyway, and I think about three or four of us drive up there-drove up there. And when I got
back, there was a check on top of my desk from the chancellery office and in it was a check that
says, um, you see when I got ordained, when we all got ordained, since we don’t work, we
didn’t….we didn’t have any money, yet you have to have transportation. So it’s accustomed of
the chancellery to lend you the money to buy a car.
H-Uh huh.
R-And you’d pay the chancellery back with a three percent interest or whatever it was at the
time. Well it was great when you got into a parish and you got paid your hundred and twenty five
dollars a month salary plus, of course, you get stipends for baptisms, for marriages, for burials,
for blah blah blah, talks here and talks there. And after a while you make more money than the
poor guy in the street. When I went to the inner city there were no stipends. I never charged
anything. People couldn’t afford to pay for baptisms, for marriages, for, uh, for whatever, a
message for the dead from the living whatever you know? You just-there weren’t all those
extras. So I couldn’t pay-I couldn’t pay for my car. I stopped paying it. I’m saying this because
in that letter it said, ‘Including the money you requested, I want to you remind you that you still
owe the archdiocese so much money’, I forgot how much it was, haha, ‘and either the good
people of the inner city would know what kind of a person it is that you don’t pay your debts to
be scandalized. I could take you to court on this, you know?’
H-Laughs
R-I got that letter, I got in my car, I don’t know how I got to chancellery office, but I did. There
were two priests right there in the little waiting room, and then there was a door to the
Archbishop’s office, there was a guy inside. I just went and opened the door. I told the guy to get
out. I was told later on that I was-everybody could hear me. It was Fury, then the Archbishop,
and I took the check and threw it to him and I said, ‘You know, mister, there was a man sitting in
that chair not too long ago who treated his priests like shit. And he’s not there anymore. You
better be careful.’ And I walked out, haha. You know the fifty one priests got together, you
might rememberH-Right.
R- That was Lucey. And I wasH-It wasn’t a check it was a statement. You didn’t get a check you got a statement.
R-No I got both.
H-Oh you got both a check and a statement.
R-Yeah.
H-Oh I see.
R-I got a check with his letter.
H-I see.
R-You know? In fact I think I still have it. I have a file second to none. Anyway the-I keep
forgetting that I’m talking to the third person here. Anyway I’m trying to give you an example
how I feltH-Uh huh.
R-you know in this *mimics sound of scissors* being cut off more and more and more. And as I
was turning more attention to PADRES-in fact I moved my office. Finally I moved from the
inner city and came full time with PADRES. I rented obviously on Frederiksberg Rd., I rented an
office there. And moved in, I had an executive director, etc. and thenH-What happened to the inner city project?
R-The um-I have some correspondence, copies of correspondence, with me was another priest,
Joe Bednick who was a Redemptorist, and Larry had already left to another parish. And Joe
wanted to-I think Larry Steuben-I think George, again, was named, if I remember correctly, the
director although I never saw George there. It just-oh yeah, Bednick wrote to the Archbishop and
said that he could take care of the inner city if he could receive, you know, the pay that I was
getting, he would get it going again, or keep it going.
H-Who was this now?
R-Joe Bednick.
H-I see.
R-A Remptorist. I’m not too clear there. But by that time I was working full time with PADRES
and the inner city went into the hands of the archbishop. And I ran full time with PADRES and,
see what happened, yeah.