P-Anyway um, I remember that my cousin kept-so one day I did, I said, ‘OK I’m gonna go but
I’m gonna tell you one thing, I’m not going to hang out with you guys. I’m gonna go over on my
own and I’ll listen from a distance.’ So sure enough-because he had made a statement about we
need to ‘kill the gringo’. That’s what the press picked up.
H-Uh huh.
P-What he said was, ‘kill the gringo attitude’ and they left the word attitude out of there and just
left the word ‘kill the gringo.’ So of course you know, hey, the Alamo raise it again you know,
haha the Alamo battle here. So anyway he had a press conference-not apologize, but again, to
explainH-Uh huh.
P-how things have been misinterpreted and what have you. And I remember that the news people
came in. And they of course were shooting and I remember this one camera that kind of floated
around. And I of course was sitting-I was standing next to a pillar listening to these-by myself.
So at ten o’clock the news at ten o’clock that night made the statement, ‘Jose Angél Gutierrez
was at such and such a place along with his bodyguards.’ And guess who the bodyguards-one of
the body guards was, haha. And I came out a clear as could be. My uncle was a cop, a
policeman. And oh my God, it caused a scandal in my family. My mother was backing me up
you know that I had a right to be there, to listen. You know my uncle says, ‘no, they’re a bunch
of hoodlums’ and all that. And I-and that disturbed me. In my own family they were so afraid.
I’m not saying I’m not standing up for things.
Yet my mother, who later on got in the union and was made president of the union and
raised a lot of hell herself, I remember her-we used to go to the Gardner State Park and one day
we stopped in Saginaw, Texas. And we wanted a hamburger. So we went in and we ordered a
hamburger, and my mother was buying other stuff. And they told us that they could sell us a
hamburger only to go.
H-Uh huh.
P-We couldn’t eat it there. And I thought, ‘*Spanish 2:28-2:31*’. So she went over there and
asked him, ‘what do you mean they can’t eat the hamburger here?’ And he said, ‘no mam, we
can serve it to go only.’ Man I had never seen my mother so angry. She go the stuff that she was
buying and just threw it on the table and said, ‘well if they can’t eat here I’m sure as heck not
going to shop here.’ And then she left. Again, impression, way back then has stayed in my mind.
Sometimes you have to stand upH-Uh huh.
P-for what’s right. So getting back to that, I was so concerned about the reactions. So that started
me getting involved with demonstrations. At that time Cesar Chavez was having big marches
and having the-he was having the boycott on the lettuce.
H-Uh huh.
P-And I remember later on we were talking about his because later on I went to work for the
church actually I went to work for the Office of Hispanic Affairs. Specifically-I remember there
was oh Leonard *name 3:49* and a few other guys that we were involved in the movement.
That’s when at Edgewood I remember we had gas credit cards. And our way of demonstrating
was to get the credit cards and cut them up.
H-Uh huh.
P-And send them back to the people. We would not buy anymore from them because they were
not hiring any Mexicans and all that, Mexican Americans. We demonstrated against the San
Antonio Savings. We used to have coupons-you know on class, you used to save money. And we
were supposed to go and turn in our savings account and take the money out. Like I said, we
were going to make them go broke you know.
Both Laugh
P-But the idea is that we were strategize-we were thinking. So we when begin to get a little bit
more involved, I remember Willie Velasquez, we went out to do voter registration. That was
something we had never done, and they would tell us-we would go to the people and they
wouldn’t even know about it. And they would say, ‘*Spanish 4:46-4:49’*. They had arrested
their son. They say, if you’ve been arrested, well no if you have a felony, but not if you were
arrested for some misdemeanor. But anyway just the idea that that’s how we began to get
educated. That’s how you begin to see and recognize the neighborhood and how it has been held
down. There’s no education among us about what is right and what is wrong. It’s only if it
happens, *Spanish 5:19*, just let it happen.
H-So the-your-your sort of inquisitive presence at this, you know you were there to see Jose
Angél.
P-Yeah.
H-And you got, haha, brought in by the television camera guy, haha.
P-Yeah.
H-Who said the bodyguards and they panned over and caught youP-But the reaction of my family, Gilbert, thatH-And so what was the first action that you got involved with do you remember?
P-You know I think the first action that I got involved with was with-I um-the lettuce strike.
H-Uh huh.
P-Some of us went and-at Handy Andy where I had worked and what I tried to do, not so much
raise hell, but I would talk to the people that were coming inH-Uh huh.
P-that were wondering why we were doing this. And I would try toH-Who is we?
P-The customers that wouldH-No, no but you said ‘we went’ and boycottedP-Well there was-it was a group of us that kind of were an offshoot from the Mexican American
Cultural Center. We had kind of formed a group, we being some of the staff that was there. I had
gone there for a program. And we had justH-You had gone to MACC to-for aP-to take a mini pastoral, yeah.
H-Oh OK.
P-It was a three week courseH-How did you go there? I mean what inspired you to go to a mini pastoral?
P-I think it was a friend of mine that was working at MACCH-Uh huh.
P-and he said he could get me a scholarship to go, it would be freeH-Uh huh.
P-for three weeks. And I think it was Ruben *name 7:08*. He was the development officer at the
Mexican-and the Mexican American Cultural Center was just starting.
H-Uh huh.
P-It just-and that was-I mean after a while, after I got involved with it, I mean that was the
Camelot experience for some of us.
H-Uh huh.
P-When that became exposed and it became nationwide, I remember folks man wanting to come
to MACC you know? It was that-it was like for the first time we had a university we could go
throughH-Uh huh.
P-a university that grew out of the barrio. I remember when I started working-I actually went to
work for MACC, and I remember that Father Virgil would always say, ‘and here’s Roberto Piña
he’s got a doctorate in barriology.’
H-Haha, right.
P-And the only thing is that I would talk about the barrioH-Uh huh.
P-I would talk about what we learned, I would talk about what we did. And Virgil, well he was,
haha-well maybe I shouldn’t say this but we remember him-he was the guy from the
neighborhood that had a whole Boy Scout uniform.
H-Laughs
P-I mean and his parents owned a grocery store.
H-Yeah.
P-I mean how much elite could you be?
H-Laughs
P-I mean we’re doing good if one of us had a handkerchief or had a buckle for Boy Scouts you
know? This guy had a whole uniform man.
H-Yeah, haha.
P-And then he you know became a priest. So he was born in the barrio but I don’t really believe
he was able to experience the barrio. His parents I think were disciplinarians and he would tell
about his folks. I remember he would talk about his father that his father would say that he-at the
end of the day, when they would talk to him, he’d say, ‘*Spanish 9:07* you know. And he would
tell him about everything that went on. And he said-and the thing that he enjoyed about his father
he said that he would always come up with a joke, and he would say a joke to God because he
wanted God to laugh becauseH-Laughs
P-he heard so much pain from all of us you know. Please do this, and please do that. So Father
Virgil had his own awakening, his own development. But when we talked about the things that
we did in the barrioH-Uh huh.
P-he really was impressed with that. So-and then again when folks started coming to MACC, we
worked telling stories. ‘Yeah *Spanish 9:47’*
H-Uh huh.
P-And we would even talk about in the family abuseH-Uh huh.
P-you know that our fathers did this and we all-the majority of us thought that that was
discipline.
H-Uh huh.
P-The father beat you up or-that was supposed to be.
H-Uh huh.
P-But when we heard a lot of it, we said, ‘wait a minute, this is not right.’
H-Uh huh.
P-So that’s how at the Center we began to strategize we began to look at different areas.
H-Uh huh.
P-People in Michigan were different from people coming from California. We had stories but
they were different yet the same. So that’s where I’m saying that was our-and I’ll never forget
the word analysis. I had never heard the word analysis. But we had to make an analysis not only
of our culture but our behavior, our-the different religious expressions that we had.
H-Uh huh.
P-UhH-But you-let’s-do you remember what the group then, or Father, or whoever it was, what did he
say to you to get you interested into going to MACC? MACC seems to have been a really
changing experience for you.
P-It was a life changing experience for meH-OK.
P-because it fell into the context of formal education.
H-Yeah.
P-See we always had this saying ‘*Spanish 11:21’*.
H-Yeah.
P-‘*Spanish 11:24’*. They only went to the third grade, fourth grade. There we were taught that
we were educated.
H-Uh huh.
P-It was not a formal educated, but we were educated through what we’d seen.
H-Uh huh.
P-You know, learned behavior. And we were able to get that behavior and decide which was
good and which was bad. And what Ruben told me-I don’t know if it was Raul or Leonard, but
we had gotten involved-I think maybe it was Leonard-Ruben got me the money to go but
Leonard was the one who was the activist. He was a born activist. And he was always pushing
me in a way to get more involved. And that was also the beginnings of the COPS organization.
H-Uh huh.
P-Communities Organized for Publics Service. And I remember he would tell me about COPS
and that was another organization I was afraid of because when they started out it was just
demonstrations. So and then Leonard would tell me an analysis of why we’re doing this.
H-Yeah.
P-We’re doing this because of this because of that because of this. So that was a rationale.
H-Uh huh.
P-And I’m saying, ‘God I want to learn about this.’ I remember that we had a class where we
would talked about our clothes, where we bought our clothes, where we spent our money, and he
said, ‘you know we need to spend our money where we are living.’
H-Uh huh.
P-‘Don’t go out and’-I mean the little neighborhood grocery stores, the shirts and all that, look
and see if they’re made in the USA and not made in Korea or maybeH-Uh huh.
P-And for the first time you know I even-I got very analytical.
H-Uh huh.
P-I mean by then my wife would say, ‘why’-even toilet paper-
H-Laughs
P-I would see where the toilet paper was made you know? And-so that was the beginning I think
for me that I feel in love with the processH-Uh huh.
P-there is a process. You begin, there’s a middle, and there’s what I would call an unfolding. It
doesn’t end because you’re unfolding. You’re just-I remember we said that about our kids. We
said, ‘we don’t want to mold our children. We want to all them to unfoldH-Uh huh.
P-and learn with them.’ AndH-But it seems like you got into MACC by mistake. Did you know what you were getting into?
P-No, not at all. As a matter of fact-OK let me-at the time before that we were involved in a
movement in the church called marriage encounter.
H-Yeah.
P-Marriage encounter was mostly for couples, well it was for couples. But it was very low key;
love everyone you know and about feelings and all this kind of stuff. And it was a Catholic
movement. And I remember we were asked for one of the mini pastorals, they had evening
lectures. And we were asked-someone asked the marriage encounter people and uh to go and get
someone to go talk, first in Spanish, and I thought I knew a lot of Spanish but anyway-it was
barrio Spanish but amazingly most of the people that went there understood it. You know
*Spanish 15:04-15:08* and they would know what we were talking about. So anyway, when we
did that presentation, I remember we were all-and Leonard heard me and he later on asked me
about this was too churchy. I should get involved in doing something that had more action in it.
And that’s how we began to connect.
H-How’d you know Leonard?
P-Because he worked at MACC.
H-At MACC, OK.
P-Yeah. Now I’m trying to remember everything. There was another connection with MACC
other than it was-oh yeah in the marriage encounter we got involved in leadership.
H-Uh huh.
P-And we were Mexican Americans so we were being called everywhere in the US. They would
call and ask us to go because we spoke Spanish and what have you and talk about it. We were
recruiters, national recruiters. And I remember I would say we’re from San Antonio, ‘oh yeah
that’s where MACC is.’ And I said, ‘where?’ ‘MACC.’ And I said, ‘what is MACC?’ ‘You don’t
know about MACC?’ You know?
H-Uh huh.
P-And they would tell me. And I still didn’t-come to find out you know MACC was right there
at Assumption Seminary and we lived right behind St. Mary’s UniversityH-Uh huh.
P-which is a mile away. And here at this national movementH-Uh huh.
P-the priest that we would talk to-or they knew about MACC and they would talk about it and
how great it was and all that. And I think that was the keyH-Uh huh.
P-that got me involved with MACC or got me interested.
H-Let’s go back a little bitP-OK.
H-and talk about your involvement with Marriage Encounter. How did that happen?
P-Oh that was-OK Marriage Encounter came to San Antonio in the early ‘60s *thinks for a little
bit* in the ‘60s, kind of at the same time that the Chicano Movement was going on.
H-Uh huh.
P-And my sister and my brother-in-law are real churchy.
H-Uh huh.
P-I mean they are church everyday if they can and-so they were asked to go on this weekend and
they went. And they came back all excited about it and they talked my mom and my stepfather to
go to a weekend experience and they went and they came back all excited and wanted us to go.
And I had heard that Marriage Encounter was for couples you know and I thought it was couples
that were having problemsH-Uh huh.
P-because they would teach you how to communicate. I said, ‘well hell we’re not having any
problems are we Rosy?’ You know.
All Laugh
P-And um, then my brother was talked into going, and I would ask my brother, ‘what goes on?’
He says, ‘we can’t tell you man.’ And I remember one time I went to see my mom and they hadafter the weekend they had what the called Circles of Love and they’re couples that experience
the weekend and they come together and they share about problems and just new insight and
what have you. And I remember one time I went to the house and I knocked on the door and she
said, ‘mijo, what are you doing?’ I said, ‘well I came to visit you.’ ‘Well you can’t come in mijo
we’re having our love circle.’ ‘Your what?’
H-Laughs
P-Here my parents are having a love circle, I said, uh duh.
H-Laughs
P-So then I got more inquisitive about it so finally you know-this was a year and a half after they
had made it and everything. I finally-and Rosy my wife was just you know-she wasn’t really
demanding but she was really like-she felt left out so she told me and one day I said, ‘OK I’m
going to go ahead sign us up.’ I didn’t tell her, I went and signed us up. And then I told her, ‘you
know we’re signing up to go to the weekend this next weekend.’ ‘Oh honey but I’m going to go
to this and I’m going to this.’ ‘OK, I signed up that’s it. We don’t have to go.’ And then she says
the following, ‘well I cancelled we can go to the weekend.’ ‘Ah shi’All Laugh
P-So I went to-we went to the weekend and it was, again, that was an eye-opening-it was a life
changing experience for me too because that to me, in those days, being involved a little bit with
the Chicano Movement, the only good gringo was a dead gringo as far as I was concerned. And
in this *movement 20:01* seventy percent of them were Anglo you know. And all of a sudden
they were lovey dovey with us and all this kind of stuff. And it showed me another side of
things, another side of the church. And there’s where ‘movement’ began to make sense. You
know I remember we wrote a paper when we got involved with Marriage Encounter because
then they-we were selected to start the Marriage Encounter in Spanish.
H-Uh huh.
P-And that meant-and I though Marriage Encounter in Spanish that you know, on the west side.
But Chuck Gallagher who was the national leader took us to New York and you know we went
over there and he showed us, ‘we want to start the Marriage Encounter in Spanish.’ I remember
at the team training is what they called it, it was in St. Louis, and I said, ‘you know what I like
Chuck, I’m gonna start this-I’d like to start this in Spanish for our people.’ And Rosy, ‘said, ooo
your people.’ I said, ‘the Mexican people.’ ‘You don’t even know how to speak Spanish,’ she
says. ‘I know how to speak Spanish.’ I didn’t-I thought I knew how to speak Spanish. So anyway
he said, ‘I hear you Robert, and we’re working on it.’ Well six months later he called us in. My
sister, and my brother, myself and Rosy, my brother and his wife, and two couples-two other
couples, one from Rio Grande who is a Supreme Court Judge in Gonzalez, um, I forget what his
name is.
H-Raul Gonzalez?
P-Raul Gonzalez, yeah.
H-Uh huh.
P-He and his wife and a couple from Dallas. We came together and went to New York and they
told us-when they mentioned a Spanish speaking weekend, they mentioned-everywhere where
there’s a big Hispanic population, New York, California, and what have you. And then they
started talking about Latin America, Spain, even Cuba. I didn’t know they spoke Spanish over
there man you know andH-Laughs
P-but the funny thing about this is that we made our first Marriage Encounter in Spanish here in
San Antonio and then we went to California. When we went to New York, I had never heard
Spanish spoken any other way than that way God intended Spanish to be spoken, was the way
we spoke it. ‘Hey como estas man? I went to see you yesterday *Spanish 22:47* I went over to
the hospital man when I got there *Spanish mixed with English 22:51* what her name was
*Spanish mixed with English 22:53* so then I went back. By the time I got back, by the time I
got there she had already check out.’
H-Laughs
P-And you know that’s Spanish as God intended. So anyway we went to New York to give a
weekend. I had never experience a Puerto Rican, never even heard of them. One of the couples
that was going to be a team-were Puerto Ricans. So we get to New York, and here comes this
couple with a sign, you know. And then they speak. *Mimics Spanish of Puerto Ricans 23:20* I
said, ‘either they’re talking to fast, I’m listening too slow, but God never intended for Spanish to
be spoke this way.’
H-Yeah
P-You know? So I-see what I mean by the process?
H-Uh huh.
P-You begin to understand, you begin to empathize, you begin to wonder you know, among us
as Latinos, the Cuban that was another rude awakening. *Mimics Spanish of Cubans 23:49* Real
loud and direct, right in-and this guy was smoking a cigar and I said-I hate cigars. I remember I
mentioned-‘he doesn’t even know how to talk Spanish and he smells bad’ you know.
All Laugh
P-With that little cigar. So anyway thatH-We’re going to have to take a breakP-OK.
H-because we’re going to have to change the tape.
P-Have I talked that much?
H-That’s fine, let’s take a break.
P-See I told you don’t get me started because I don’t-