TO:
FROM:
DATE:
SUBJECT:
KSU NamPOW Think Tank (T3)
Bob Krone
22 JUNE 2009
T3 Report #3, Data Summary
T-3 CONFIDENTIAL - NOT FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
It’s time to take check our data status. This report contains the responses you have
submitted to date on Target #1:
HOW CAN THE SPECIAL MENTAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL
QUALITIES OF SURVIVING NAM-POWS BE APPLIED TO
FIND INNOVATIVE SOLUTIONS TO EXISTING PROBLEMS?


What were your special qualities?
What are the problems you want to study?
I. INTRODUCTION: I have done no editing. I have ended the report with some of my
recommendations for future work. I request that you send Larry Friese and me your
recommendations. The Three’s In members who have agreed to participate in the Kepler Space
University Three’s In Think Tank (T3) are:
1. Mo Baker; 2. Ted Ballard; 3. Jim Bedinger; 4. Hubie Buchanan; 5. Ed Hubbard; 6. Rod
Knutson; 7. Bill Metzger; 8. Bob Schumaker; 9. Wes Schierman; and 10. Dick
Stratton
The following Three’s In members have participated in the T-3 dialogue. If you have submitted
to me or Larry Friese your responses to QUALITIES and STUDIES and I do not have them here,
please resend with my apologies:
Ned Shuman; Paul Galanti; Gary Sigler; Don Spoon; Rob Doremus; Ken Cordier; Kile Berg;
Scotty Morgan; Jim Warner; Hal Kushner; Ron Webb; Gobel James;
And, following the ten Tgt #1 responses are the recent statements and publications by Leo
Thorsness and Bud Day on TORTURE. They are powerful. And this has been a leading political
issue for the last two years. And following them is the e-mail exchange between Ken Cordier,
Gary Siglar and others.
Gentlemen, on reflection, this is a critically important database. We, at Kepler Space University,
are proud to have helped in its collection. We will keep it confidential until specific parts of it or
studies have your approval for release. It is clear evidence that NamPOW brainpower is a superior
resource for the United States of America.
Bob Krone, Ph.D., Colonel, USAF (Ret), Provost, Kepler Space University, 23 Jun 2009
1
**********************************************************************
1. MO BAKER
Subject: Target I; How can the special mental or psychological qualities of the surviving NAM POWs be
applied to innovative solutions to existing problems?
• What are your special qualities?
• What are the problems you want to study?
The personal mental qualities that I discovered while I was in the Vietnamese prisons were not special
but rather far more profound than I realized. For example, I found that I could memorize long strings of
data when necessary. In the prison we not allowed to have pencil and paper. Of necessity most of our
planning, solving and cataloging results were all mental. Secondly, I found that the long hours of silence
without distraction were highly productive in accomplishing mental tasks. My concentration and attention
to tiny details were magnified far beyond my expectations. Again, I do not feel that I am special in these
achievements. I met and conferred with many others in the prison that were experiencing the same
surprising increase in their own mental acuity and prowess. This amplified effect is difficult to establish
and maintain in the normal busy life that most of us live today. However, the talent is still attainable if the
surrounding
conditions are set to maximize our productive mental capacities. Personally, if I have a difficult problem to
think through, I will take a weekend off from the family and seek seclusion in a peaceful venue to develop
alternative solutions.
What are the problems that I want to study? I believe that our think tank should not try to tackle problems
beyond our fields of expertise. For instance, we are warriors, accomplished in that field. We might have
talents in that area that could provide idea of better tactics and strategies to meet the threats to our nation
security. Personally, while in prison I took stock of my background and formal training in order to make a
realistic decision about the types of problems I should attack. I have a BA in Social Sciences from
Syracuse, BSEE from AFIT, Wright-Patterson AFB, MA I management and Supervision from Central
Michigan University. Therefore, I would NOT be effective in problems of the World Banking but might
make a contribution to enhancing the GPS utilization in the combat zone. I am sure it has already been
thought of, but any open area, or aircraft carrier for that matter, could be made and all-weather landing
zone if the forward observer had
his own Cesium-clock transmitter and became one of the multiple positioning transponders of the GPS
system. The ground unit establishes the absolute altitude and virtually removes all the ambiguities of the
precision approach for helicopters or STOL aircraft.
How do we apply ourselves to innovative solutions? I suggest we thirteen take stock of our background
and formal training and compile a list of what we have in the think tank to work with. With that knowledge
each of us will be better equipped to select a challenging problem. There might be a member in T3 that
CAN make a valuable contribution to the World Banking problem. The rest of us will gladly track his logic
and offer additions and criticisms to flesh it out.
As to the methodology used by T3, I prefer the Adelphia method, where each of us offers our
independent ideas and solutions to a problem. The ideas and solutions are collected, categorized and
distributed without authorship to the T3 for a second round ideas, additions, modifications etc. Final
consensus is then assessed by the central collector.
2
Qualities that brought me through the POW ordeal
I was raised in a small town in Missouri in a large family with well founded religious values. I knew from
childhood that there is a God and that I was important to him. Therefore, whatever happens to me was
alright since He was in charge. As a lad Boy Scouting gave me further self confidence. I learned to exist
in the wild on my own. By the time I reach flight school I felt that with training I could do that was required
of a modern day warrior. I attended every survival school offered, Sea survival, Arctic survival, Combat
survival and Jungle survival. The combat missions over Vietnam were more good sport and the greatest
adrenaline rush of all. Getting shot down and tortured by villagers and the captors was painful and
terrifying but not beyond bearable. I felt that if I died there it was part of God’s plan. I did not fear death
then or now.
The conditions of confinement were grim but not unbearable. I quickly set about using the time to my best
advantage. I was never lonely or without a mental challenge to work on. I do not point to myself as being
outstanding or unique. I point to myself as being the product of a good Christian family, raised by a village
with a strong religious heritage and supported by a magnificent country.
Problem Suggestions:
1. It would not be wise to plan on fighting the next war with this war’s rules. What will be the nature of
the next level of national threats and what will be the best way to protect ourselves.
2. There is a terrible mind set developing in certain business industries that the government has an
obligation to prevent their failure though subsidizing? How did this start and how do we stop it?
3. The small cross section 250 pound can be precisely guided to within one meter of any target, thereby
surgically destroying it with very little collateral damage. Would we be justified in developing satellite
laser or neutron beams with the accuracy to cause the lethal destruction of one person in a crowd?
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss interesting and relevant questions with T3.
Mo Baker – end
2. Ted Ballard
The first week I was in captivity I underwent about 10 to 15 torture sessions in the ropes, culminating
with a broken hip and other injuries. Initially, they were after military information, then propaganda
(war crimes confession, etc.) then they concentrated on what kind of tactics we were using to deliver
the bombs. I had refused everything, but finally realized I could not take any more torture. I remember
the camp commander saying, “Answer the question, Ballard.” I didn’t know what to do so I said the
following prayer: “God, please give me the courage to say ‘No!’ to this man one more time. Immediately
I looked up at him and said, “No.” He stared at me for a few moments and then gathered his papers and
left the room. I was never asked any more questions.
I used that “prayer for courage” many times over the years. It always worked.
So, the answer to the What were your special qualities?
is simply my religion and faith in God and my close-knit family. Honesty, integrity, and truthfulness were
always infused in us.
3
I would like the Think Tank to maybe survey the Ex-POWs to find if many others used similar prayers. I
know a few non-believers or agnostics who were just as resisting and courageous (or more so) as I.
Perhaps more ideas later.
Ted Ballard
******************************************************************8
3. JIM BEDINGER
Target I: How can special mental or psychological qualities of surviving NAM POWs be applied to
find innovative solutions to problems today?
A. What are special qualities? I am not sure I am that different than any other American Naval Aviator
and officer. I was well educated and had a liberal education from private schools and college. I think as a
group we were “remarkably well educated and dedicated officers.” So that is not necessarily special to an
individual but could be special to the military officer leadership with dedicated career enlisted support.
One thing that I was certainly aware of was that my original ancestor, Daniel Bedinger, was a POW of the
British in the Revolutionary War. The British were so certain he would die that he was exchanged for
officers held by American forces. He recovered, rejoined the Continental Army and received a battlefield
commission at the age of 15. He served until the defeat of the British at Yorktown and was among an
original of the Virginia group of the Society of Cincinnatus. The certificate was signed by George
Washington and Henry Knox and adorned every home of my childhood. It was something special to me
and it was something that kept telling me that I could and would endure. I was not the first to “fall behind
the fight in the cause of freedom.” SO this “faith in my fathers living still” combined and strengthened my
spiritual view that God was with me. I am not sure how many others shared such a background.
What sustained me that may be more general follows:





Faith in God and Country
Faith in and compassion for my fellow POWs
An urgent and driving need to communicate with others regardless of risk
No matter how bleak, somehow I found humor in the most unusual places and was eager to
share with my fellow POWs.
Intellectual curiosity and desire continuously to learn and do more in anything.
B. What are the problems you want to study?



4
What made some POWs very avid and good communicators while others sat back and let others
do the work? Does the same thing occur today in most businesses? If so, what we learn from the
POW experience that will encourage people today to communicate in the workplace?
I personally observed that individuals closest to the SRO derived more satisfaction from tapping
and talking thru walls, and therefore more drive to communicate. Can we apply some principle to
organizations at large on creating a centrality of communication to encourage more to participate
in organizations chat and discussions?
Many organizations face economic ups and downs much like POWs faced the ever changing tide
and tenors of the peace talks. Can we learn anything about the ways organizations thrive or
decline in the way they treat exogenous factors that change their expectations from how the
POWs coped with possible release and how the peace talks in Paris were reportedly going?

Can we learn anything from the POWs almost universal acceptance of many faiths and
celebrating in all them and then apply that to organizational values today?
Gosh, I could go on but I think I should stop there for now. I realize this may seem mundane to Shue’s
great topics re space. I just wanted to make sure that Larry didn’t think I was asleep at the keyboard.
USA FED just opened a new branch on the Naval Base San Diego and I have been fairly busy in a host
of mostly minor administrative things including more meetings.
Cheers and GBU,
Jim Bedinger, Director of Military Affairs
USA Federal Credit Union
9999 Willow Creek Road, San Diego CA 92131-1117
(858) 831-8100, Ext 1514, Fax (858) 790-5380
jbedinger@usafed.org
*********************************************************************
4. HUBERT BUCHANAN
Re reading the original email and questions, the qualities that helped get me through was
determination, persistence, unwilling to quit, just take it a day a a time and do the best I could
each day, always convinced I could get through it. Hope never died.
On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 9:33 PM, Hubert Buchanan <zonehb@gmail..com> wrote:
Special mental or Psychological qualities: I don't think I have any special qualities. Everyone has abilities
and often they are over looked. As a POW I realized that if you were persistent, it was often possible to
solve problems that at first seemed to have no solution. Alone in a cell, I was able to pass a note through
a hole in the wall 12 feet above the floor by tightly rolling up a straw mat and pulling the center of the mat
until it extended out into a long tube. This became the tool needed to reach the hole. Many problems
seem too difficult to solve but like puzzles if you keep at it the solution usually pops up.
What problems do I want to study: I am not sure what you want here. The world's problems? My
problems? Your problems. Help me out with some examples please.
H. Buchanan – END
*****************************************************************************************************
5. Ed Hubbard.
. Following are my thoughts on "qualities" and "problems."
QUALITIES THAT HELPED ME GET THROUGH THE ORDEAL:
1. A sense of purpose.
2. Acceptance that no one was to blame for me being in captivity....but me.
3. Understanding that every problem has a solution and it was my responsibility to find the solutions.
4 A desire to return from the experience a better person, physically and mentally, than when captured.
5. An understanding that everything we do can, and must, be done better.
5
6. Willingness to undertake the most difficult physical and mental tasks where the only reward was
pride of accomplishment.
7. Understanding of the extraordinary vital nature of teamwork.
8. The ability to return from the experience without bitterness toward anyone.
THE THREE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTIONS I WOULD LIKE T3 TO STUDY:
1. How do you eliminate "greed" as the primary driver of American society? (How to overcome the
"What is mine is mine
and what is yours is mine if I can get my hands on it syndrome")
2. How do you teach people to understand the intrinsic value of the ideas of each person? (How to
eliminate the "Not
invented here syndrome")
3. How do you create a society where a "sense of purpose" and "pride in accomplishment" top all other
considerations?
(My favorite quote, "The only true monument to mankind is the mark you leave on the life of another
person.")
Those are my initial thoughts. I look forward to working with you on this project. Hopefully we won't be
too late to save the country! Ed Hubbard
****************************************************************************************************
6. ROD KNUTSON
How can the special mental or psychological qualities of surviving NAM POWs be applied to find innovative
solutions to existing problems?
* What were your special qualities?
* What are the problems you want to study?
1. A mental and psychological toughness gleaned from a positive family upbringing, moderate education and formal military
training inspiring confidence.
2. A positive attitude toward what I was doing and why I was there.
3. A continual positive attitude toward the future.
4. A sense of humor.
5. A desire to be successful.
6. A sincerely positive belief in my family, myself and my country.
Topics:
Why do some get PTSD and some do not... no matter what the trauma is...
Why are some individuals strong, some mediocre and some strong
Why are some individuals oriented toward peace and passiveness and some oriented toward hawkish or aggressive behavior and
how does it effect the outcome of their overall life experiences
cheers, Rod
****************************************************************************************************
7. Bill Metzger
How can the special mental or psychological qualities of
surviving NAM POWs be applied to find innovative solutions
to existing problems?
Without a full appreciation of where this "study" is going or what it's about and being a bit
of a cynic, I have a problem accepting the fundamental premise of the question. I don't
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believe that we have any "special" qualities. We are a cross-section of American men,
college educated and specially trained. Our POW experience has likely altered our
perspective regarding life, our country, liberty, etc.. That may lead to somewhat unique
(rather than innovative) solutions to problem solving. How do we "apply" special
qualities/perspectives in finding solutions? Beats me.
* What were your special qualities?
Don't believe I have any. I probably have a "coarser harder" outlook and am much more
judgmental because of the POW experience. This relates to a perception of serious
cultural decline in discipline, accountability, moral & ethical standards, personal
responsibility and initiative. However, regarding all things "patriotic" (our country and our
service), I am much more emotional and sensitive because of the POW experience.
* What are the problems you want to study?
There aren't any. This is Larry's study. As a lazy old retiree, I just play golf, hunt and
drink gin. Gave up "studying" long time ago. I've just offered to help a good buddy in HIS
study.
Hope this doesn't sound too uncooperative and negative. It just reflects the old
curmudgeon I've become. (probably be the first to be dropped from the list)
Bill Metzger
8. Bob Schumaker
Here is Shumaker's response to the "target" questions:
-What special qualities enabled me to survive eight years of POW captivity in Vietnam:
--ability to dream
--personal dedication to country
--pride in family
--educational background
--ability and desire to communicate
--desire to make my family and nation proud of my behavior
--compassion for my fellow prisoners
-Problems the group might consider:
--how to establish peace on earth before we tackle space
--how the world's society is going to afford a large space effort
--how can various countries better collaborate on space activities
--how can space be utilized fo alleviate earth's energy needs
--in case of a catastrophic earth event (i.e. plague, AID's, flood, etc.), should we invest in a
safe haven in space in order to preserve the human species.
Bob Schumaker END
*******************************************************************
7
9. Wes Schierman Bob & Larry,
Sorry for the 2 mailings I didn't intend to send, & the
one incomplete one I did! Am having trouble with this computer. Last
night I had my reply mostly done, saved it dozens of times,but closed it
to have dinner, which should have put it in my draft folder, but it just
disappeared! Unfortunately I hadn't copied any of it, so this AM I
started over. Got to where you received my 3rd mailing, & the machine
would not let me type any more. Will have to do something different
next time!
What I intended to write after my 3 suggestions was that I don't think
our little study can do much about our major problems as they are in my
opinion caused by a society who has come to rely on the government to
take care of them, & politicians who are too busy taking care of
themselves to do their jobs!
Therefore, on a smaller scale, I'd like to see the group address the
following:
1. Did the directed Rules Of Engagement contribute to your Capture, &
if so, In what way?
2. Was the mission on which you were captured planned & conducted in
the best possible way, & if not, what should have been done differently?
3. Do you think that fatigue, ill health, or lack of sleep contributed
to your mission effectiveness, &/or your capture, & if so, in what way?
END WES SCHIERMAN
********************************************************
10. Dick Stratton
1. REPLY to this e-mail and add Larry Friese's address to the
SEND.
2. List the qualities that brought you, personally, through your
POW ordeal.
FAITH - Roman Catholic; pre-Vatican II
REASON - Trained according to the Jesuit Ratio-Studiorum prior to the Jesuits
abandoning their reason and their faith.
DISCIPLINE - Molded by USMC DI's: GySgt Livermore; Sgt Jones; Sgt Rafael US
Naval School of Pre-Flight
PRIDE - In my family name; my family tradition of military service; my
commission; my country.
8
PERSEVERANCE - The Ballard of Sir Andrew Barton: "Fight on, my men, says Sir
Andrew Barton, I am hurt, but I am not slain; I'll lay me down and bleed a while
and then I'll rise and fight again."
UNIT COHESION - The firm belief that in unity there is strength and that a good
leader is first a good follower.
FREEDOM - The conviction that NH's motto is valid: "Live Free or Die".
3. Then write the three most important problems you would
like the Think Tank to study.
a. Restoration of the fundamental ideals of the republic and the founding fathers.
b. Definition of a warrior ethic based on those ideals.
c. Definition of a citizen ethic based on those ideals.
Dick Stratton END
*************************************************************************
II. LEO THORSNESS
9
PAUL LACHINE
1 of 2
View images
Posted on Sun, Jun. 7, 2009
SURVIVING TORTURE:
Philadelphia Inquirer, Jun 7, 2009
Leo Thorsness is a retired Air Force colonel, a Medal of Honor recipient, and author of "Surviving Hell: A POW's
Journey"
As the debate about torture continues, one of the nation's most valuable resources, the Vietnam POWs, goes largely
untapped.
Of the 350 "old-timer" POWs - those held for five years or longer - the majority were tortured by the North
Vietnamese. The Department of Defense did not study torture after the POWs were released in 1973. We're a
"torture database," but the Pentagon has yet to do a study about our experience.
I and many other Vietnam POWs were tortured severely - some were tortured to death. Several POWs wrote books
after their release describing their experiences. John "Mike" McGrath's book Prisoner of War: Six Years in Hanoi had
extensive drawings vividly depicting the types of torture the North Vietnamese used.
When I wrote about my wartime experiences in Surviving Hell last year, initially I did not include torture because I
knew others had given detailed accounts. However, my editors encouraged me to add it, reasoning that if younger
Americans read only current books, they may perceive the treatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo as
real torture. So I added my experiences. I want readers to know that there is abuse and humiliation, and there is
torture.
10
If someone surveyed the hundreds of surviving Vietnam POWs, we would likely not agree on one definition of
torture. In fact, we don't agree on whether waterboarding is torture. For example, Sen. John McCain (R., Ariz.),
George "Bud" Day, and I were recently together. Bud, one of the toughest and most tortured POWs, was the
senior officer in the camps, and he received the Medal of Honor for his heroism in Vietnam.
McCain thinks waterboarding is torture; Bud and I believe it is harsh treatment, but not torture. Other POWs
would have varying opinions. I don't claim to be right; we just disagree.
Photo #2
As someone who has been severely tortured over an extended time, my firsthand view is this:
Torture, when used by an expert, can produce useful, truthful information. I base that on my experience. I believe
that during torture, there is a narrow window of truth as pain (often multiple kinds) is increased. Beyond that
point, if torture increases, the person breaks or dies if he continues to resist.
Each person will tolerate a different physical and mental threshold of pain. If the interrogator is well-trained, he
can identify when that point is reached. It's the exact moment when, if slightly more pain is inflicted, a person can
no longer hold out and merely provides name, rank, serial number, and date of birth, as dictated by the Geneva
conventions. At that precise point, the window of truth exists, and a person may give useful or truthful information
to stop the pain. As slightly more pain is applied, the person loses it. He will say anything he thinks will stop the
torture - any lie, any story, and any random words or sounds.
This torture window of truth is theoretical to some. Having been there, it is fact to me. While being tortured, I had
the sickening feeling deep within my soul that maybe I would tell the truth. It is unpleasant, but I can still dredge
up the memory of that window-of-truth feeling as the pain intensified.
Our world is not completely good or evil. To publicly proclaim that we will never use any form of enhanced
interrogation causes our friends to think we are naive and eases our enemies' recruitment of radical terrorists to
plot attacks on innocent children, men, and women or any infidel. If I were to catch a mad bomber running away
from an explosive, I would not hesitate a second to use "enhanced interrogation," including waterboarding, if
doing so could save the lives of innocent people.
Our naivete does not impress radical terrorists like those who slit the throat of Daniel Pearl in 2002 simply
because he was Jewish and webcast the sight and sounds of his dying. Publicizing our enhanced-interrogation
techniques only emboldens those who will hurt us.
To aid the debate on how to obtain information from prisoners, the Pentagon should tap the Vietnam POW
database. The Pentagon would learn for example, that we developed our own standards and passed them on to
those recently captured: "When you can't hold out for years by simply giving your name, rank, serial number, and
date of birth, take physical torture until you are right at the edge of losing your ability to be rational. At that point,
lie, do, or say whatever you must do to survive. But you first must take physical torture."
11
A careful study may reveal that brutal torture done by poorly trained interrogators - such as we experienced in
North Vietnam - will gain no more information than that gained through enhanced interrogation by trained
interrogators.
Such a study might also reveal whether the use of threats but no physical torture results in information. Some
POWs shot down in 1971-72, near the end of the war, were only threatened. We should compare their
experiences with the Obama administration's policy of using the U.S. Army Field Manual, which does not allow
even threats.
Finally, does the use of enhanced interrogation bode badly for future American POWs? Not until all other nations
sign a treaty and actually abide by the Army manual - no threats, no raised voice, no physical torture, no nothing.
But until all countries - and all terrorists - follow that manual, we are dreaming to think that our do-nothing
interrogation policy will protect Americans captured by the enemy.
In the meantime, to define torture and its results, and to formulate the best policies for productive interrogations, I
encourage the Pentagon to tap the rich Vietnam POW database.
End Leo Thorsness
*********************************************************
III. BEGIN BUD DAY
From: bbaugh@Q.COM
Reply-to: NAMPOW@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM
To: NAMPOW@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM
Sent: 5/23/2009 7:31:15 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time
Subj: Fox News Channel Salutes Medal of Honor
Bud Day's comments on torture, sent to a by Misty friend of mine.
B²
********************************************************************************
Dear Kelly: Thanks for the "heads up" on the Medal of Honor spots. Some
of my friends have seen it already and mentioned it. I sent a copy of my
book to Fox News in D.C., and wanted Sean Hannity to be able to talk about
what torture really is. He has no one on his side to talk about
torture..who has been tortured. He is free to quote from the many
illustrations that I provided in my book Duty Honor Country
I got shot down over N Vietnam in 1967..a sq commander.
After I returned in 1973.. I published 2 books that dealt a lot with "real
torture" in Hanoi. Our make believe president is branding our country as a
bunch of torturers when he has no idea what torture is.
****e.g * as to me..put thru a mock execution cuz I wud not
respond...pistol whipped on the head...same event.. Couple of days
later...hung by my feet all day.
I escaped and got recaptured a couple of weeks later.. I got shot and
recaptured. Shot was OK...what happened after was not.
They marched me to Vinh.. put me in the rope trick trick..almost pulled my
arms out of the sockets
12
Beat me on the head w/ a little wooden rod until my eyes were swelled shut,
and my unshot unbroken hand a pulp.
Next day hung me by the arms...rebroke my right wrist...wiped out the nerves
in my arms that control the hands..rolled my fingers up into a ball. Only
left the slightest movement of my L forefinger. So I started answering w/
some incredible lies.
Sent me to Hanoi strapped to a barrel of gas in the back of a truck.
Hanoi..on my knees..rope trick again. Beaten by a big fool.
Into leg irons on a bed in Heartbreak Hotel.
Much kneeling--hands up at Zoo.
Really bad beating for refuse to condemn Lyndon Johnson.
Several more kneeling events. Cud see my knee bone thru kneeling holes.
There was an escape from the annex to the Zoo. I was the Senior
Officer of a large building
B-cuz of escape..they started a mass torture of all commanders.
I tk it was July 7, 1969..they started beating me w/ a car fan belt. In
first 2 days I took over 300 strokes..then stopped counting cuz I never
thought I wud live thru it.
They continued day-nite torture to get me to confess to a non-existant part
in the escape. This went on for at least 3 days. On my knees..fan
belting.. cut open my scrotunm w/ fan belt stroke. opened up both knee
holes again. My fanny looked like hamburger..I cud not lie on my back.
They tortured me into admitting that I was in on the escape..and that my 2
room-mates nu about it.
The next day I denied the lie.
They commenced torturing me again with 3- 6- or 9 strokes of the fan belt
every day from about July 11 or 12rh..to 14 October 1969. I continued to
refuse to lie about my roomates again.
Now, the point of this is that our make-believe president has declared to
the world that we (U. S.) is a bunch of torturers.. thus it will be OK to
torture us next time when they catch us....cuz that is what the U.S. does.
Our make-believe president is a know nothing fool who thinks that pouring a
little water on some one's face, or hanging a pair of womens pants over an
13
Arabs head is TORTURE. He is a meathead.
I just talked to MOH holder Leo Thorsness who was also in my sq in jail ..as
was john McCain..and we agree that McCain does not speak for the POW group
when he claims that Al Ghrib ws torture.. or that "water boarding" is
torture.
Our president and those fools around him who keep bad mouthing our great
country are a disgrace to the United States. Please pass this info on to
Sean Hannity. He is free to use it to point out the stupidity of the claims
that water boarding ..which has no after effect..is torture. If it got the
Arab to cough up the story about how he planned the attack on the twin
towers in NYC...hurrah for the guy who poured the water.
Col. Bud Day MOH
End Bud Day
**********************************************************
IV. KEN CORDIER, GARY SIGLAR & OTHERS E-MAIL EXCHANGE ON TORTURE
-----Original Message----From: Gary & Pam <gpsigler@MWII.NET>
To: NAMPOW@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM
Sent: Fri, 22 May 2009 7:27 am
Subject: Re: FW: CNN.com interview request regarding faith/torture
Thanks, Ken. I appreciate your remarks. I, too, am in general opposed to
torture of prisoners; however, in cases like those three individuals Chaney
mentioned, I really don't care what is done to gather information to save
innocent American lives. Terrorists are not POWs and are not subject to
Geneva Conventions.
No need to reply...just my opinion.
Gary
-----Original Message----From: The NamPow List [mailto:NAMPOW@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Ken
Cordier
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 10:52 PM
To: NAMPOW@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: FW: CNN.com interview request regarding faith/torture
Right you are, Gary.
Problem is, about 95% of "reporters" will slobber over OB, and the others
will give guarded support to the "right thinking" side.
It is incumbant on us as subject matter experts to speak out and defend
common sense and the policies which have lept us safe(r) for the last 8+
years. This weekend, I am giving 3 speeches locally, the 3rd will be on
Monday to 1500+ at a big Memorial service at the area's largest cemetary.
Sam will introduce me, and I will come down HARD on the bed wetter approach
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to National Security. I oppose torture, but those who think making the
terrorists uncomfortable can stay home.I will quote Cheney's impeccable
logic and note that JSM, like all of us has an opinion. Unlike John, I am
not encumbered with elections and the need to appear PC.
Yours in Freedom(so far),
Ken
--- On Thu, 5/21/09, Gary & Pam <gpsigler@MWII.NET> wrote:
From: Gary & Pam <gpsigler@MWII.NET>
Subject: Re: FW: CNN.com interview request regarding faith/torture
To: NAMPOW@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM
Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 9:12 PM
My experience with reporters is that they have short memories and leave out
the parts that don't promote the story line they are working on. After the
two speeches today, I expect reporters to be taking sides.
Gary
-----Original Message----From: The NamPow List [mailto:NAMPOW@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM] On Behalf Of Jack
Van Loan
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:16 AM
To: NAMPOW@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM
Subject: Re: FW: CNN.com interview request regarding faith/torture
Ken, Just talked to him. Seemed like a straight arrow. We shall see. GBU
Jack
----- Original Message ----From: "Ken Cordier" <ken.cordier@SBCGLOBAL.NET>
To: <NAMPOW@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM>
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: FW: CNN.com interview request regarding faith/torture
>I spent a half hour with him yesterday - he seemed OK, for a CNN guy - I
>would encourage anyone who thinks the current occupant of the White House
>had it all wrong in his attempt to savage Pres Bush and wrap himself in the
>Constitution this AM to talk to him and show that we POWs know more about
>real torture than Pelosi and her fellow bed wetters. I told him I
>definitely do not approve of Torture, but so called EITs are not in anyway
>torture - we even demonstrate it to our pilots in "combat
survival"
>training. If you think water boarding is torture, don't bother.
>
> Yours in Freedom,
>
> Ken
>
> --- On Thu, 5/21/09, Al Agnew <flynavy0@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> From: Al Agnew <flynavy0@HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject: FW: CNN.com interview request regarding faith/torture
15
> To: NAMPOW@COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM
> Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 10:06 AM
>
> CC: Don't know anything about this guy but if you want to give him
your
> th=
> oughts..... please do. If not=2C so be it. GBUA=2C Al
>
> ________________________________
>> Subject: CNN.com interview request regarding faith/torture
>> Date: Tue=2C 19 May 2009 11:34:41 -0400
>> From: John.Blake@turner.com
>> To: flynavy0@hotmail.com
V. BOB KRONE SUMMARY THOUGHTS AND RECOMMENDATIONS
My overall comment is that we are on an important new journey for NamPOWs, for the
future of military prisoners, for military history, and for a much improved analysis of the
experiences you all survived. The information and studies T-3 can produce should become
required reading in every United States Military Education School, and be available globally. We
are committed, at Kepler Space University, to creating a “NamPOW Online Library” which will
consolidate all of Three’s In documents, speeches, presentations, publications and media events
since 1973.
Here are my recommendations on 23 June 2009 for some next steps. Larry Friese will work
with you to obtain consensus on these, and on ideas you each have:
1. Using the data base you have created from Tgt 1, aggregated here and
Expanded by other inputs, Larry Friese and I co-author a paper titled:
“How Military Prisoners Can Return with Honor.”
2.
You select a team of authors to write a major paper for DOD on
“Torture, Interrogation and National Security”
3.
You review all the recommended studies in this document, we do another
round of subject solicitation, then prioritize the list for future research.
4. You, T-3, invite academic researchers outside of Three’s In to join with
you for selected subject research. For instance, Bob Frantz, Chairman
of the Board of America’s Distinguished Flying Cross Society and CEO
of Kepler Space University would like to author, with one of his graduate
students, Murielle Reisse, a study on “HUMAN ISOLATION: IT’S HISTORY AND
LESSONS FOR FUTURE ASTRONAUTS.” The video I made of Jim Warner at the
NamPOW/RiverRats Reunion in San Diego will be valuable on that subject. And
attorney Jonathan Sussman and graduate scholar Kseniya Khivane, in Africa – both
in my KSU 600 Research Course -- want to collaborate with you on a study
regarding “Military Imprisonment and the Law.” These are just two example of a
multitude of potential studies.
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Let’s Assure That Three’s In Permanently for American and Global Society,
Bob Krone
P.S. The only people outside of Three’s In being sent this Report are KSU President Richard Kirby and CEO
Bob Frantz who will respect its T-3 Confidential status.
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