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[12/12/2011 21:46:46] Owen Gallagher added Maarten to this conversation
[12/12/2011 21:46:55] Owen Gallagher added Nathalie Casemajor Loustau to
this conversation
[12/12/2011 21:46:57] Nathalie Casemajor Loustau: Nathalie Casemajor
Loustau can’t be added to this conversation due to his/her privacy settings
[12/12/2011 21:59:19] Owen Gallagher: Owen Gallagher set topic to "Remix
Theory & Praxis Seminar Series 2011"
[12/12/2011 22:01:20] Owen Gallagher: Hi Meryl, glad you could make it.
[12/12/2011 22:01:41] Meryl Krieger: Hi Owen! Me too!
[12/12/2011 22:02:21] Owen Gallagher: Are you finished teaching for the
semester?
[12/12/2011 22:02:22] Martin Zeilinger: Hi Owen, after a long hiatus and
reading transcripts of past seminars was able to make it as well today.
[12/12/2011 22:02:40] Owen Gallagher: Great Martin! Welcome.
[12/12/2011 22:02:45] Meryl Krieger: yes but not grading. finals this week. long
week ahead.
[12/12/2011 22:02:58] Martin Zeilinger: Are introductions in order?
[12/12/2011 22:03:02] Meryl Krieger: Hi Martin!
[12/12/2011 22:03:11] Martin Zeilinger: Hi, Meryl.
[12/12/2011 22:03:43] Owen Gallagher: Yes, I think that would be great perhaps everyone here would benefit from fresh introductions as well, as it is
our last meeting of 2011. Go ahead Martin!
[12/12/2011 22:04:35] Owen Gallagher: Perhaps a very brief intro about your
background and interest in remix...?
[12/12/2011 22:05:10] Martin Zeilinger: I hold a Banting Postdoctoral
Fellowship in Law & Culture at York University, Toronto. Wrote a dissertation on
appropriation art 2 years ago. My current project (collaborating with Rosemary
Coombe) is specific examples of remix communities and the alternatives to
traditional IP law they find for themselves.
[12/12/2011 22:05:47] Owen Gallagher added Nathalie Casemajor Loustau to
this conversation
[12/12/2011 22:05:50] Martin Zeilinger: Recently submitted a co-edited book
on Fair Use/Fair Dealing in digital contexts to the publisher, and a currently
revising my dissertation for publication.
[12/12/2011 22:06:10] Owen Gallagher: Thanks Martin - glad to have you on
board!
[12/12/2011 22:06:27] Martin Zeilinger: Me too, thanks!
[12/12/2011 22:06:29] Nathalie Casemajor Loustau: Hello
[12/12/2011 22:07:05] Owen Gallagher: Hi Nathalie and welcome. We're just
doing a quick round of introductions if you would like to give us a brief bit about
your background and interest in remix...?
[12/12/2011 22:07:29] Meryl Krieger: My turn? I teach part time at one of the
Indiana University campuses (plus other places). Did my dissertation on
recording studio practices, and am particularly interested in the perspective of
performers on the role of technology in the creation of performance texts. Am
finishing up an article looking at what seems to be a constant concern with what
we define performance as, given changing technology. My big research areas
right now are virtual recording studios, online collaboration and mashups.
[12/12/2011 22:10:30] Nathalie Casemajor Loustau: OK. I'm a postdoc at McGill
(Montreal), at the Dpt of Art History and Communication Studies. Originally from
France (thus my imperfect English). I did my PhD on cultural heritage online,
especially the digitization of photographic collections from libraries, museums
and archives, and I'm currently interrested in "unruly" audiences and the way
publics appropriate digital heritage.
[12/12/2011 22:11:13] Owen Gallagher: I'm a PhD researcher in the Faculty of
Visual Culture at the National College of Art and Design, Dublin, Ireland. The
current focus of my research is ideology in critical remix and I did my M asters
on the conflict between protection of cultural works and freedom of expression. I
run the websit TotalRecut.com and make remixes and I currently lecture and
reside in Bahrain...Mette, Olivia and others - quick refresh introductions...?
[12/12/2011 22:12:48] Owen Gallagher: Meryl, Nathalie - thank you very much.
Welcome Logie!
[12/12/2011 22:14:26] Mette Birk: Hi everyone. Sorry I'm late. I'm a graduate
student from University of Copenhagen – particularly focusing on remix
communities - a sociological approach to remix cultures.
[12/12/2011 22:15:53] Jeremy Plante: I am a graduste from the University of
Ottawa in Environmental Sciences. I am starting a documentary/filmmaking
business in Ottawa. I've been recently introduced the to remix, but I have a
background in remixing and sampling music.
[12/12/2011 22:16:40] Logie: Hallo. Professor of Rhetoric in Department of
Writing Studies, University of Minnesota. Taught a seminar entitled "Mashing
Culture" on, well, mash-up cultures. Writing a book on implications of
remix/mash-up for written composition specifically. Also distracted participant
this week owing to other concerns . . . looking forward to lurking . . .
[12/12/2011 22:18:33] Mette Birk: Wow - a lot of new "faces" to the seminar Welcome everyone!
[12/12/2011 22:18:36] Olivia Conti: Hi! MA student at Syracuse University,
writing my thesis on video remix and its mobilizing capacities on and offline. I'll
be popping in and out today - finals week!
[12/12/2011 22:18:33] Martin: Heyya!
[12/12/2011 22:18:44] Meryl Krieger: Good to meet you all!
[12/12/2011 22:19:13] Owen Gallagher: Thanks a million Mette, Jeremy, Logie,
Olivia. Welcome Martin! (Quick intro) Ok guys, let's get started shall we?
Futurology is often a prickly subject to discuss and can degenerate into a
brainstorming session producing ideas about what would be the best future
direction in which to proceed. In terms of approaching the question of 'the future
of remix', could we have some suggestions on how best to approach this to yield
the most meaningful and useful of conversations?
[12/12/2011 22:23:49] Owen Gallagher: Perhaps a focus on observable trends
within different spheres of influence that are affecting remix in different ways
might be a good starting point for thinking about where it is all heading?
[12/12/2011 22:24:27] Martin Zeilinger: I guess one question to pursue might
be whether the future of the remix will be determined by aesthetic practice, by
technological advances, or by the legal apparatuses designed to regulate
remixing.
[12/12/2011 22:25:11] Logie: I'd say YES, but I'd loe to see people rank those
three!
[12/12/2011 22:25:23] Jeremy Plante: Do we want o break the discussion into
two parts? What we believe would be the best future direction of remix, and
what, if any, effect are current remix practices having on shaping the future?
[12/12/2011 22:26:10] Meryl Krieger: The obvious statement there is that the
influences are interactive - I think I see why Owen's leaving this so open.
[12/12/2011 22:27:11] Meryl Krieger: Current practices are more likely an
easier place to start.
[12/12/2011 22:27:24] Nathalie Casemajor Loustau: Or we could follow
Martin's 3 directions: aesthetic/technological/legal, and try to identify trends in
these aspects
[12/12/2011 22:27:54] Meryl Krieger: I'm game.
[12/12/2011 22:28:12] Martin Zeilinger: I agree with Meryl that the spheres will
likely be impossible to keep apart.
[12/12/2011 22:33:09] Owen Gallagher: In terms of current practice, and
considering most of us are in some way involved in education, what are your
thoughts on the use of remix in a teaching, learning and research environment,
as was attempted with the 'Master Hands' experiment? Does anyone have any
direct experience of using remix in an educational setting?
[12/12/2011 22:34:34] Owen Gallagher: Logie you mentioned you taught a
course in Mashing Culture - did you use remix directly in the course or study it
through more conventional methods?
[12/12/2011 22:35:28] Olivia Conti: I volunteered for an organization that uses
remix as part of media literacy workshops - the students take commercials and
cut them up with other footage, title cards or voiceovers.
[12/12/2011 22:35:37] Martin Zeilinger: I have taught a senior seminar called
'Media and the Copy', and there was an 'experimental' weekly written
assignment, for which many students towards the end of the class started
submitting collage texts.
[12/12/2011 22:35:42] Logie: More conventional methods, though the student
projects created a space where remix/mash-up strategies were encouraged.
[12/12/2011 22:35:57] Meryl Krieger: It just came up in one of my classes students blending u2u interactions online with f2f interaction. It was totally
unplanned (why I thought it was so interesting). I've seen this go in two different
directions though - it can alternately increase student interaction - or reduce it.
[12/12/2011 22:37:16] Owen Gallagher: @ Olivia - ok Media literacy is a great
one - what do you think will be the net outcome if more and more of these media
literacy workshops teaching remix techniques are run around the world, say in
the next 2-5 years?
[12/12/2011 22:37:31] Meryl Krieger: I've been thinking of trying twitter as a
course tool next semester for creating a virtual wiki-type dynamic text - I guess
I'm still a slow adopter in my classes because my students have such mixed
levels of technological literacy.
[12/12/2011 22:38:26] Meryl Krieger: and, full disclosure, I mostly teach
sociology, communications and folklore/anthropology classes
[12/12/2011 22:39:09] Owen Gallagher: To state the obvious, it seems to me
that such workshops are leading towards a situation where most likely more and
more remixes will be made of (hopefully) higher and higher quality...although
teaching someone how to use a pen and paper doesn't necesarily mean they will
be able to write a literary masterpiece right?
[12/12/2011 22:39:08] Meryl Krieger: my students are consequently "normal"
Americans. whatever that's worth.
[12/12/2011 22:39:22] Meryl Krieger: exactly.
[12/12/2011 22:40:12] Martin Zeilinger: this is one step removed, but in
teaching remix-related cultural theory i have also found it very useful to do inclass open discussions analyzing remix pieces (mostly video art and mashup
music stuff).
[12/12/2011 22:40:48] Owen Gallagher: @ Martin when you say collage texts,
do you mean literally 'text-based' or were some of them videos?
[12/12/2011 22:40:51] Logie: I located an exemplary student project:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AOAiZrOwdc
[12/12/2011 22:41:13] Meryl Krieger: not to buy into the tangent too far, when
teaching new practices case studies are needed - known to unknown, as it were.
[12/12/2011 22:41:30] Olivia Conti: Ideally (in my opinion) it could lead to
remixing becoming a larger part of the discourse surrounding the way that mass
media portrays various identities, with more young people talking back to
dominant media institutions and remixing to reflect their lived experience. But
yeah - there is the quality issue. Something that's interesting as an argument is
not always interesting to watch.
[12/12/2011 22:42:05] Martin Zeilinger: @ Owen - sophisticated close readings
of remixes tend to be quite eye-opening for students. it was as a result of these
discussions that my students started cutting-and-pasting text passage to
assemble critical text pieces. No video works in that class (it was in lit studies).
[12/12/2011 22:42:42] Meryl Krieger: Logie, nice video.
[12/12/2011 22:44:06] Logie: That's my student Brittany Sheehan's work. She
really shows what's possible when students bring considerable remix skills to
the table. (Video editing in her case)
[12/12/2011 22:44:37] Meryl Krieger: good deal. Tell her it's become part of a
class assignment for my sociology students next semester :)
[12/12/2011 22:45:26] Meryl Krieger: she's dealing with the problems of text
and authorship we deal with in ethnomusicology a lot.
[12/12/2011 22:45:31] Logie: ...but I would hesitate to *require* remix for
major projects from traditional humanities students . . . the skillsets are soooooo
varied.
[12/12/2011 22:45:44] Martin Zeilinger: i agree.
[12/12/2011 22:45:49] Owen Gallagher: @ Logie - that looks like an excellent
piece, I look forward to watching it in its entirety. It seems to fit into the category
of 'essay film' or 'cinematic film', similar to what Kirby Ferguson has done with
the Everything is a Remix videos we discussed previously. I think this is
definitely a direction we are going to see more and more of from academia there are already electronic journals that accept such essay films in lieu of
academic papers and this is a trend likely to continue and increase in the future...
[12/12/2011 22:45:56] Meryl Krieger: that's why I haven't done it - but I leave it
open as an option for those with the skill set.
[12/12/2011 22:47:08] Jeremy Plante: I feel like by teaching remixing to
students, like teaching them literature, or sciences, you are trying to give them
the tools to communicate in a world that already is designed to be "remixed".
The internet's structure is already changing so that individuals can "remix" it to
their own version with all of the new "Web 2.0" software. If we accept remix as
something very strongly established in our world with a real potential for change
and effect, then we must teach it on all levels we would teach any subject or
"lens" to view the world in - kind of how this discussion group seems to
designed...I just joined last week so if this is redundant I appolagize.
[12/12/2011 22:47:37] Logie: Without breaking the hearts of students who
deliver traditional papers (and I still love a good one) projects like Brittany's get
my pulserate elevated. I see in work like this opportunities to develop messages
that need not live and die within the ivory tower . . .
[12/12/2011 22:49:02] Meryl Krieger: projects like this happen at a small level
all over the place in production classes though - it's a staple to the point where
you can see a disconnect between the goals of the academy and the goals of
commercial filmmaking here.
[12/12/2011 22:49:07] Owen Gallagher: @ Olivia - excellent follow on point, in
relation to 'talking back to media institutions'. This is certainly one of the
primary aims of many of the political and critical remix videos out there - we
have previously discussed some very sporadic examples where actual change
has occurred as a result of such videos. Are we likely to see this happening more
in the future?
[12/12/2011 22:50:27] Owen Gallagher: @ Logie - should traditional humanities
students be required to undertake the kind of media literacy remix workshops
Olivia mentioned in order to level the playing field somewhat in terms of
skillsets?
[12/12/2011 22:50:59] Meryl Krieger: you'd never get them there. they think
they already are media literate.
[12/12/2011 22:52:36] Owen Gallagher: @Jeremy - interesting observation.
What is your view on so-called 'digital natives'? Are the upcoming generation
automatically 'media literate' because they have been brought up in an
environment that has never been bereft of mobile phones and social networks?
Or do we still need to teach 'remix skills'?
[12/12/2011 22:52:54] Logie: @Owen - I'd like to see more teaching of remix at
the undergraduate level. Having taught a seminar on these topics, the cirt/theory
side of things keeps you pretty busy . . . I wasn't able first time out to fold in skills
(and my skillset isn't deep, to be fair) so yeah, workshopds would be good.
[12/12/2011 22:54:17] Owen Gallagher: @Logie - what do you see as some of
the limitations to essay films like Brittany's over conventional text-based essays?
Clearly it speaks in more vernacular language and therefore is more accessible to
wider audiences, but surely it is difficult if not impossible to communicate in as
much depth and detail in a video as you can in a written text?
[12/12/2011 22:55:52] Logie: @ Owen - first let's underscore the upside. A
project like this reinforces its message by example. Whereas written texts are
linear and "flat" composers like Sheehan are — as we've discussed — layering
and "stacking" ideas.
[12/12/2011 22:56:27] Owen Gallagher: @Meryl - do you think there are many
educators who would like to get their students to use remix as components of
their coursework, but who do not for fear of legal action or because their
educational institution has an excessively risk-averse policy towards fair use that
effectively prevents such activities from occuring under the umbrella of the
institution in question?
[12/12/2011 22:57:04] Meryl Krieger: I'm not sure it's a fair use issue though
that's definitely there. Every university I know has a different policy - part of the
problem.
[12/12/2011 22:57:36] Martin Zeilinger: mostly, as far as i can see, these
policies are very conservative.
[12/12/2011 22:57:44] Logie: @ Owen — I think I'm at odds with the premise of
your question. I don't accept this being necessarily true for 21st Century
composers: "it is difficult if not impossible to communicate in as much depth and
detail in a video as you can in a written text"
[12/12/2011 22:57:52] Meryl Krieger: There's a big difference in what's done
for class use and what's done with commercial intentions. and yes, very
conservative.
[12/12/2011 22:58:24] Logie: dammit. I was supposed to be lurking. ; )
[12/12/2011 22:58:45] Jeremy Plante: I am not in the world of teaching remix or
even having studied it. In a sense I am a student of it at the moment. I have a lens
of Environmental Sciences, so I guess the way I see it at the moment in reading
up on all of these studies is that even if upcoming generations are media-literate
are doing casual remixing aided by simple tools, that they still need to be taught
remix "skills" as if remix were something that had the same potential as any kind
of medium that allows us to communicate ideas. Remixing in my opinion is a a
very natural process we do at a biological level in challenging external stimuli at
a cellular level. At the moment the internet is being designed with micro-content
that allows us to challenge the media and communication of ideas, arts and
culture, and people need to learn skills to do so.
[12/12/2011 22:58:48] Meryl Krieger: @Owen and Logie - I'm with Logie on
this. I think it's perhaps harder to articulate but there are layers upon layers that
I can show in a ethnographic video that would take me a book to write. This was
my dissertation iin action, as a matter of fact.
[12/12/2011 22:59:20] Meryl Krieger: I shot a video that laid out all the
components of my dissertation - 10 minutes. My diss? 236 pages (cover to
cover). Said most of the same things - just with citations.
[12/12/2011 22:59:28] Meryl Krieger: okay, maybe 12 minutes.
[12/12/2011 23:01:26] Owen Gallagher: These conservative policies within
educational institutions are a potentially huge barrier to the proliferation of
remix practices like the examples we have mentioned. Do you think the trend is
that such conservatism is likely to become more or less restrictive? It is a difficult
thing to attempt to predict, but such proposals as the 'Protect IP Act' do not bode
well for those of us in favour of more liberal policies...
[12/12/2011 23:02:35] Meryl Krieger: this is where the politics of legislation is
coming in. I don't the legislation in the UK but I know the efforts to limit DIY
access and cut off anything that challenges commercial profits are non-stop and
ongoing here in the States.
[12/12/2011 23:03:07] Martin Zeilinger: I can only speak for the Canadian
context, but up here, university policies regarding fair dealing are extremley
restrictive, and all digital remix components of courses would likely have to go
largely under the radar.
[12/12/2011 23:05:03] Jeremy Plante: @Meryl - very interesting! For the future
---Think of the possibilities of having immediate access to footage, pictures,
anything, that can be editied and remixed within minutes in classrooms...making
your teaching and discussion that much more efficient...or do we need those 236
pages to let our minds have time to reflect on all the intricacies of those ideas
and thoughts?
[12/12/2011 23:05:56] Owen Gallagher: @Meryl and Logie - point taken. And of
course it would be possible to produce series of essay films that would
collectively communicate similar amounts of information or more than would be
possible in a book. (Would love to see the video of your dissertation Meryl!)
[12/12/2011 23:06:27] Meryl Krieger: Well, I spent another five years and
thought it out a bit further - but the basics were there. The issues were obvious
from my second day of fieldwork in the recording studio and even more obvious
when I got into the editing room. I don't regret writing my dissertation! it made
me tease out the various issues that were more implicit.
[12/12/2011 23:07:25] Meryl Krieger: I think my point is, you don't need a Ph.D.
to understand what you see (though you might need one for the vocabulary lol) it's entirely possible for someone with media chops to do what I did if they
understand a community and its practices, which I did before walking in the
door.
[12/12/2011 23:07:52] Meryl Krieger: And I developed those filmmaking chops
after I'd started - it became obvious to me that first day that I needed them.
[12/12/2011 23:08:29] Meryl Krieger: My thought here, is that there's a tension
between the "officially sanctioned" practices and what we all study and do - isn't
that where the creativity sits?
[12/12/2011 23:09:14] Owen Gallagher: @Martin "all digital remix components
of courses would likely have to go largely under the radar" - is that such a bad
thing? I mean, isn't the perceived element of 'rebeliousness', for want of a better
term, an asset to remix more than an achilles heel? If all remix was completely
legitimate, wouldn't that remove some of its power to stir emotions, be
controversial and annoy conservative capitalists?!!
[12/12/2011 23:10:03] Martin Zeilinger: I agree, Owen. but then 'teaching
remix' can never become part of a pedagogic agenda or a curriculum.
[12/12/2011 23:10:32] Martin Zeilinger: perhaps this might be a good moment
to talk about legitmix…
[12/12/2011 23:10:52] Martin Zeilinger: seems like there are some overlapping
issues here with Owen's comment.
[12/12/2011 23:11:03] Meryl Krieger: definitely.
[12/12/2011 23:11:14] Martin: If it meant dismantling the property regime
that's governing media production, then I'd happily say goodbye to the
rebeliousness of remix culture.
[12/12/2011 23:11:30] Martin Zeilinger: Legitmix to me points to exactly to the
kind of remix-dystopia Owen just outlined.
[12/12/2011 23:13:30] Meryl Krieger: it sounds to me an opportunity to make
DIY corporate. Isn't that the same game culture industries have been playing all
along? I liked the idea - and then found it troubling, mostly for this reason.
[12/12/2011 23:14:00] Owen Gallagher: @Jeremy - you raise an important issue
we have touched on before, but is defintiely worth pursuing here in relation to
future trends - the absolute abundance of cultural content available online and
the impossibility of one person to have enough time in one lifetime to sift
through it all. If a remix video can articulate the important points of a 300 page
tome in 30 minutes, why take the much longer amount of time to read through
the entire book? Manovich and our own Eduardo Navas and Tara Zappel are
doing some fascinating work on Cultural Analytics, attempting to use
technological automation to track and 'sift through' the billions of cultural media
objects on the internet...
[12/12/2011 23:15:08] Martin Zeilinger: See also Franco Moretti's Literature
Lab at Stanford U.
[12/12/2011 23:15:18] Meryl Krieger: @Owen, yes, except that the process of
unravelling all of that content allows a much deeper understanding. THAT would
be something I'd assign as a graduate seminar!
[12/12/2011 23:15:22] Meryl Krieger: hmmm.
[12/12/2011 23:16:12] Martin Zeilinger: @Meryl -- along these lines, J Lethem's
"Ecstasy of Influence" is always a good addition to course readings on this
subject.
[12/12/2011 23:16:20] Meryl Krieger: @Martin - thanks.
[12/12/2011 23:17:06] Martin Zeilinger: I think Legitmix is an interesting new
take on sampling and mashup issues.
[12/12/2011 23:17:40] Martin Zeilinger: It's obviously quite convenient, and
compellingly simple -- but it's also entirely based on embracing the idea that you
have to 'own' content in order to be allowed to enjoy it.
[12/12/2011 23:17:43] Meryl Krieger: I'm certainly interested in who's making
their music available and who's using it.
[12/12/2011 23:17:53] Meryl Krieger: ...or their media.
[12/12/2011 23:20:15] Martin Zeilinger: ad Legitmix -- would have to take a
closer look at their user agreements, but right off the top of my head, from a
purely legal perspective I'm not so sure that simply owning the source songs
makes the circulation of unauthorized sample-based works legit.
[12/12/2011 23:21:03] Meryl Krieger: wasn't that what creative commons was
supposed to accomplish? clear up that particular legal gray area?
[12/12/2011 23:21:22] Meryl Krieger: ...or copy left?
[12/12/2011 23:22:22] Martin Zeilinger: but there's a voluntary component to
creative commons. creative commons licenses are easy to challenge legally, and
hard to enforce.
[12/12/2011 23:23:48] Martin Zeilinger: i have a forthcoming piece on the
efforts of chipmusicians to challenge misappropriation of their creative
commons-licensed music through commercial bands. happy to make available if
anyone interested.
[12/12/2011 23:24:50] Owen Gallagher: Legitmix - yes, I also find it troubling.
But it reminds me so much of my.mp3.com, the pre-napster idea that was
destroyed by the record companies in the early 2000s. The premise was that you
could only upload and download songs from CDs that you had bought
legitimately - Legitmix is attempting a similar strategy - if you can prove that you
have the mp3 of the the sampled tracks, you may download the remix. But one
big problem with this is that most people's mp3 collections are at least partially
illegitimate. This could mean a move towards more digital locks on media
content...
[12/12/2011 23:25:35] Owen Gallagher: Or alternatively, perhaps Legitmix are
fully aware of this and are merely using spin to convince the recording industry
that what they are doing is 'legitimate'...?
[12/12/2011 23:25:51] Martin Zeilinger: yes -- also worrysome from a privacy
perspective, because you'd have to grant access to the metadata of your music
collection.
[12/12/2011 23:27:19] Owen Gallagher: Yes Martin would love to read that!
[12/12/2011 23:27:27] Meryl Krieger: Let's try another approach here (and
pardon me if I vanish - have to go teach piano in a few minutes!) - how might this
be relevant to - or related to - the current efforts to make it possible for a person
to buy a "copy" of a work and then have rights to use it in any form? Like, buying
a DVD but having rights to burn a copy (for backup, of course!), stream it from an
authorized source and so on?
[12/12/2011 23:27:34] Meryl Krieger: Yes, Martin, I'd like to see it also.
[12/12/2011 23:27:35] Martin Zeilinger: @owen ok will pass along.
[12/12/2011 23:28:12] Martin Zeilinger: no problem.
[12/12/2011 23:28:43] Logie: I was confused about the Legitmix example. I
don't own Rush's "Tom Sawyer" and yet I heard the sample. Isn't the model that I
can't hear it if I don't own it? (My review of the page was compressed, I apologize
if the answer's obvious)
[12/12/2011 23:30:30] Meryl Krieger: Here's a good one - I own a copy of the
cassette (purchased in the 80s, yes, you heard me right, the cassette) - does this
count as owning a copy of Moving Pictures by Legitimix's standards?
[12/12/2011 23:30:33] Martin Zeilinger: @Meryl -- there are pretty
considerable efforts in the legal academic community right now to have
copyrights re-recognized as user rights (which they have always been). that
would take care of the backup copy issues and many others. however, the
adoption of anti-DRM-circumvention in various national copyright acts these
days is a problem there.
[12/12/2011 23:30:53] Meryl Krieger: exactly. this is why I question what's
going to happen with Legitimix.
[12/12/2011 23:31:17] Meryl Krieger: It's messy.
[12/12/2011 23:31:25] Martin Zeilinger: definitely.
[12/12/2011 23:32:13] Owen Gallagher: @Logie - you mean you heard the
sample in the preview of one of the tracks? I think their premise is based on the
downloading of full mp3s of sampled and remixed tracks. The previews are just
to whet your appetite!
[12/12/2011 23:33:22] Logie: This is my beef with the Beatles and Elvis
Costello. I'm two formats deep on purchases of much of their catalogs. I'd really
appreciate being able to scan my UPCs into my smartphone and having at least
straming access to the songs I've already purchased TWICE (perhaps thrice in
the case of the moptops) instead of them trying to sell me on the newest latest
"special edition".
[12/12/2011 23:34:26] Owen Gallagher: @Meryl, I wouldn't hold out much hope
for your cassette, I'm afraid. How many of you bough cassettes of LPs you
previously owned - or CDs of tapes you already owned? Or mp3s of CDs you
already owned? Those record company execs are geniuses!
[12/12/2011 23:34:31] Logie: @Owen — based on their video, I thought the
way they were dodging being ceased and desisted out of existence is "missing"
elements in remixes that don't "sync up" with songs already resident on my hard
drive.
[12/12/2011 23:35:49] Meryl Krieger: I'll be checking back on the rest of the
conversation - have a great day/evening folks - wish I could stay for the rest!
(piano students, pshaw) Happy New Year to you all - I'
[12/12/2011 23:35:55] Logie: Ahhhhh . . . so if I own all the pieces of the remix,
THEN I'm freed up to purchase the high-quality MP3 of the remix?
[12/12/2011 23:35:57] Meryl Krieger: I'll for sure be back next month!
[12/12/2011 23:36:01] Meryl Krieger: @Owen - thanks!
[12/12/2011 23:36:22] Owen Gallagher: @Logie - no I think if you are missing
any of the samples on your harddrive, you cannot download the the mp3. How
frustrating would that be!?
[12/12/2011 23:36:24] Martin: bye Meryl. take care!
[12/12/2011 23:36:32] Owen Gallagher: Bye Meryl - thanks a lot!
[12/12/2011 23:36:40] Meryl Krieger: I'll be looking for your piece Martin!
[12/12/2011 23:36:50] Meryl Krieger: Meryl Krieger has left the conversation
[12/12/2011 23:37:19] Owen Gallagher: Sorry Logie, just read your 'ah-ha'
moment after I had written the last comment...
[12/12/2011 23:39:22] Owen Gallagher: While we're on the conversation of
commerciality, how do people see the future of say, video remixers, in relation to
cashing in on their productions? Could a Legitmix video edition exist?
[12/12/2011 23:40:39] Martin Zeilinger: i think YouTube already scans uploads
and compares them with a database video materials that are known to be owned.
that's in part how they're automatic blocking system works.
[12/12/2011 23:41:09] Owen Gallagher: Legitmix Video: If you own all of the
original videos sampled in a video remix, then you are granted the privilege of
paying to download a high quality video file of the remix. That doesn't sound like
something that would work very well...definitely not something I would sign up
for!
[12/12/2011 23:41:14] ikat381: Martin's correct. And they use the same system
to pay out ad revenue.
[12/12/2011 23:41:32] ikat381: I just changed my own username by the way
because I was getting confused with two "Martins" being in here
[12/12/2011 23:41:43] Martin Zeilinger: but just like with Legitmix for audio, i
think a main problem would be having a standard medium and a standard
system of embedding metadata and permissions inside sound files.
[12/12/2011 23:41:55] Martin Zeilinger: @ Martin :)
[12/12/2011 23:42:58] Martin Zeilinger: as far as i am concerned -- the golden
standard for unstoppable remixes are analog media -- found footage film, vinyl
live-sampling, tape-based sample music, etc.
[12/12/2011 23:43:32] Martin Zeilinger: it's almost impossible to automatize
the blocking of the circulation of such remixes.
[12/12/2011 23:43:33] Owen Gallagher: @Martin - when you say 'video
materials that are known to be owned', I guess you are referring to copyrighted
material. But in the case of Legitmix, the user would need to 'own' a copy that
they have bought and paid for legitimately in order to be able to see a sample of
it in a video remix.
[12/12/2011 23:44:48] Owen Gallagher: @ikat381 - have you heard of cases
where popular video remixers have received advertising revenue from YouTube
for their popular remixes? And if so, do the original copyright holders receive a
share of the profits?
[12/12/2011 23:45:43] ikat381: Revenue sharing from Youtube proper is, as far
as I understand, a tough way to making a living for remixers. More often what I
see is remixers going directly to clients and then making them a commercial.
[12/12/2011 23:46:20] Martin Zeilinger: @ikat that would be very interesting to
know. my guess is that YouTube would be in violation of their own fair use policy
if they allow ad revenue streams for remixed copyrighted materials.
[12/12/2011 23:46:25] ikat381: Pogo got popular making unauthorized disney
remixes, then disney payed him to make an authorized one for "Up" --- the remix
is own Disney's own channel:
[12/12/2011 23:46:34] ikat381:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2yt1ooLQGo
[12/12/2011 23:46:56] Owen Gallagher: Do you mean a non-remix commercial?
And what kind of clients? Scratch that - I hadn't heard of that case. Extremely
interesting trend!
[12/12/2011 23:47:28] ikat381: Eclectic Method has made a pile of money doing
remixes not just for film companies, but for various brand name products I
believe. Like liquors and whatever.
[12/12/2011 23:47:40] Jeremy Plante: It seems to me that the system maybe if
music and video costs would be standardized so that a certain amount of time
equals a certain amount of music, so that you could pay for parts of songs to use
only those couple of seonds for a remix. Take it one step further than paying for
individual songs and start paying for 2 seconds of a song
[12/12/2011 23:48:09] Martin Zeilinger: @Martin amazing. there are
precedents now for this kind of thing in the video game industry… several user
agreements for games with in-game recording abilities specifically allow remixes
(mostly machinima) to be circulated. but always only noncommercially.
[12/12/2011 23:49:20] Owen Gallagher: That Up remix is brilliant. A fine
example of artistically interesting 'authorised' remix. Although, all of the source
material comes from one source right - the movie itself?
[12/12/2011 23:49:32] ikat381: @pekoe -- do you mean ad revenue going to
remixers would violate Youtube's policy?
[12/12/2011 23:49:34] Mette Birk: Kutiman was paid to make a Craftsman
commercial after making his Thru-You videos. Hi again btw.
[12/12/2011 23:50:07] Mette Birk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-cbqvVfm8
[12/12/2011 23:50:36] Owen Gallagher: Are the commercial Eclectic Method
videos similar to Pogo's in that they only use a very restricted set of source
material, approved and authorised by the clients?
[12/12/2011 23:50:44] ikat381: Yeah
[12/12/2011 23:51:13] ikat381: And of course other remixers have leveraged
their work as a way to land jobs doing advertisements.
[12/12/2011 23:51:34] Martin Zeilinger: @Martin yes, if the materials remixed
are copyrighted. in such cases, the only way to get away with the remixing is to
claim its fair use, which can only be non-commercial (and ad revenues would
make such a remix a commercially exploited work).
[12/12/2011 23:51:51] ikat381: Aha, I see.
[12/12/2011 23:52:39] ikat381: @Martin I'm also glad you brought up the
machinima "recording" servies for various video games. That points to
something that seems to be emerging all over the place: remixing that happens
on a controlled platforms with strict rules of where it can go and what people
can do with their remixes.
[12/12/2011 23:53:19] ikat381: This sort of negotiation between how much
"user generated content" is going to be allowed in order to keep eyeballs glued to
the dominant platforms, vs the pull of users who are almost guaranteed to want
to do more with the material
[12/12/2011 23:53:27] Owen Gallagher: @Jeremy - that would be an
administrative and logistical nightmare and would almost certainly result in
increasingly 'standardized' remixes. One of the points made about the 'Master
Hands' project and other similar projects that make use of public domain
material, is that they inevitably end up looking the same because they are all
drawing on the same extremely limited pool of public domain videos from the
pre-1930s, i.e. the Prelinger Archives...
[12/12/2011 23:54:53] Martin Zeilinger: @Martin yes, very strict rules. it's an
interesting development though, because it shows that the culture industry is
beginning to recognize the value embodied in fan production (PR, free
advertisement, etc.)
[12/12/2011 23:55:53] Martin Zeilinger: there are also some examples of game
producers adopting plot/story/gameplay elements from fan remixes (now that's
a great example of appropriation of cultural expressions)
[12/12/2011 23:57:01] Owen Gallagher: Another interesting thing about these
commercial examples is that Pogo, Kutiman and Eclectic Method have all
developed their own specific and unique remix style, and that is what they were
paid by the clients to recreate in a commercial context. In a way, they are in
danger of becoming 'typecast' to these particular styles.
[12/12/2011 23:57:33] Martin Zeilinger: they are selling out, in other words?
[12/12/2011 23:59:33] Logie: Rock on remixers . . . I gotta run . . .
[12/12/2011 23:59:43] Martin Zeilinger: i have to attend to a scheduled Skype
call now, sorry to have to leave everyone (but will keep lurking). thanks for the
interesting discussion, look forward to the 2012 Remix seminars.
[13/12/2011 00:00:06] ikat381: take care Martin!
[13/12/2011 00:00:13] Owen Gallagher: Thanks Logie and Martin. Talk soon!
[13/12/2011 00:00:39] ikat381: bye logie
[13/12/2011 00:03:03] Jeremy Plante: Bye!
[13/12/2011 00:03:56] ikat381: @Owen -- I wanted to mention. "Revver" was
supposed to be a platform for using metadata to dole out ad dollars to video
makers. So you could compare that somewhat to legitmix. The Revver service
faceplanted, though.
[13/12/2011 00:04:14] ikat381:
[13/12/2011 00:05:16] ikat381: Nice. Just learned that skype will let me fix my
typos as long as I do it fast enough.
[13/12/2011 00:06:07] Owen Gallagher: I have received several emails from
YouTube offering to give me a share of ad-revenue for one or two of my remix
videos that have received more views than the others, but I ignored them.
Presumably if I accepted this I would be profiting from copyrighted material, but
if YouTube are automatically tracking the content of the videos, then the rest of
the share must be going to the copyright holders, which implies that YouTube
have an arrangement with them to authorise remixers to share in the revenue? Is
this the way it works?
[13/12/2011 00:07:05] Owen Gallagher: Martin - it says 'this message has been
removed' where you fixed your typos. Self censorship!
[13/12/2011 00:07:12] ikat381: hahaha
[13/12/2011 00:08:18] ikat381: @Owen I get those emails for some remixes
too. I think they're based on traffic or something and you get the message
automatically from youtube's robots. But their policy is that remixers are not
allowed to participate in the revenue sharing program.
[13/12/2011 00:08:54] Owen Gallagher: Yeah Revver - I played around with
that. But if YouTube's system is as I described (and I'm not sure it is) then that
means that all remixes are potentially legitimate now on youTube, as long as
YouTube has some kind of arrangement with the copyright holders to allow it...
[13/12/2011 00:09:35] ikat381: regarding ad dollars that go to the copyright
owners for the remixed footage: that applies when the content-ID system
identifies your footage as belonging to some other owner and then flags it as
their property. So if you have any videos with a copyright notice on them telling
you that the footage belongs to Sony or the song to UMG or whatever, then one of
the options for these corporations is to collect ad dollars off your remix.
[13/12/2011 00:09:57] ikat381: In theory, you could contest the content-ID
system to take their ad dollars away. Something I always wanted to try out when
I had the time.
[13/12/2011 00:09:58] Owen Gallagher: Ahhh, so the onus is then on the
remixer to make sure they do not accept the revenue robots seductive offers...
[13/12/2011 00:10:20] Owen Gallagher: What would happen if we did accept it?
Would we be liable to be sued?
[13/12/2011 00:10:33] ikat381: Not any more than you are just posting the
remix in the first place.
[13/12/2011 00:11:01] ikat381: Probably first you'd just get kicked off youtube
for violating their revenue sharing policy.
[13/12/2011 00:11:59] ikat381: I suppose you could also argue that clicking
"enable revenue sharing" would make your case weaker if ever you were
brought to court for infringement. But I don't see that being a big risk -- we're in
the age of copyright robots and copyright robots don't know how to sue us.
[13/12/2011 00:12:28] Owen Gallagher: Not yet!
[13/12/2011 00:12:39] ikat381: !!!
[13/12/2011 00:14:16] Owen Gallagher: Let's hope that sentient litigious robots
are not a trend that will impact significantly on remix in the future. On that note,
I must call it a night and wish you all a Happy Christmas and New Year and I look
forward to picking up the conversations in 2012! Thanks everyone...
[13/12/2011 00:14:47] ikat381: Thanks Owen! Take care!