H-OK. Let’s talk a little bit about-we’re talking on the break about Bishop Medeiros, the way
Manny Ballard described him that, you know, he said, “ Well, you know, he really, he was, to
some extent, a theologian, and would actually, you know, spend some time in his office writing
his papers and so on.” And he seemed to have delegated authority to Manny, as well as, to Harry
Shookenbrock and all this group of actors that you talked about who took the ball and ran with it.
Fr. C-Well, I think it was the-he definitely, he knew what was going on. But this group that I was
talking about, we were not an official group sponsoredH-Right, right.
Fr. C-, but just a group of priests that happened to come together to help and support each other.
And I don’t know if Bishop Medeiros ever knew about this, us coming together.
H-Uh huh.
Fr. C-The fact that he delegated certainly is very clear, and I agree with what Manny said, that he
allowed a lot of things to happen. And, I think, part of it, is partly due to the fact that he was
culturally sensitive, realized that he came from up north, did not know the valley, did not know
the people and the culture, but quickly recognized that there was a difference there. And, I think,
that’s why he also delegated a lot. Furthermore, the fact that he was a theologian is highly
speculative, and, yes, I agree with that, he was. In fact, I kidded him one time, I said, “Bishop, I
think-I don’t know, need to read the documents of Vatican II. Just listening to your talks is
enough.”
H-Yeah, right! Ha ha.
Fr. C-And he said, “Oh no, no, there’s a lot more to learn.”
H-Well uh, so you were first at San Juan in the retreat house, and then you came back as rector
of the shrine?
Fr. C-That’s right.
H-OK. And it was on your second time around that the activities with the farm workers had
developed, is that correct, am I getting it?
Fr. C-That’s right.
H-OK. And the bishop had decided to donate some church property, we were talking. It was
outside of San Juan, on the other side of the freeway?
Fr. C-No, it was on the old Highway 83.
H-Oh, I see.
Fr. C-Right on the border between San Juan and Alamo.
H-Uh huh. How had the church come to own this property? Did somebody leave it to the church
or something?
Fr. C-I don’t know, but I think Father Aspiazu had bought it because he had visions of building a
high school.
H-Oh, I see, yeah.
Fr. C-And he always wanted to do that but the bishop wouldn’t approve of that.
H-Uh huh.
Fr. C-And so, it was basically just farm land at the time.
H-Yeah, right. Outside those towns, the farms would begin.
Fr. C-Yeah.
H-You know, Weslaco I think was mile 8, you know.
Fr. C-That’s right.
H-Where the San Martín de Porres is, was farm land. Of course, we’re talking about ancient
times, you know, ha ha.
Fr. C-Yes.
H-Where we were growing up. So, the bishop had donated this to the farm workers, but then the
farm workers split. And it was your role to negotiate which of the two groups would –is that
what we were discussing?
Fr. C-Yes. That’s right.
H-Did I get that right?
Fr. C-Yes.
H-Who ended up with the land? The Texas Farm Workers or the California group?
Fr. C-I think the California group United Farm Workers.
H-What was your role in that? I mean let’sFr. C-WellH-Let’s see-sometimes it’s because often the roles were indirect, you know. It’s hard to see, to
pinpoint the role of the clergy or the church in these things.
Fr. C-Well, there was no official delegation to do this.
H-Uh huh.
Fr. C-It was basically through my contact with Tony Oriendain who was the leader of the Texas
Farm Workers and Rebecca Harrington who was the spokesperson, or leader, of the United Farm
Workers. And I knew both of them personally and had been in touch with them before they
broke up and so forth. So, when I became aware of the split that came about, some of the
members of that union had-were coming to church in San Juan so they made me aware of it. And
so, I made the effort to kind of mediate and bring peace and bring them together. I recall talking
to Bishop McCarthy, at that time he was director of the Texas Catholic Conference, and asked
for his help. Going to California visiting relatives over there, in Delano, which was the
headquarters of the United Farm Workers. I took the occasion to go meet, at that time, with
Bishop Mahoney who was in FresnoH-Uh huh.
Fr. C-to learn more about what the structure was of the United Farm Workers. So it was a longstanding effort of mediation, and trying to see what were the common goals, and what issues
could be-were negotiable, which ones were not. In the end, it just proved to be impossible to
reconcile, and I think the Texas Farm Workers decided, “Well let’s just get out and go on our
own.”
H-Were you-where were you at the time of the march? Were you at the retreat house at that time
or?
Fr. C-I was at the retreat house, in the shrine, but when they started in Rio Grande City that was
the weekend that I was scheduled to go on vacation so I left on vacation and didn’t know what
was going to happen. But we had already planned, Mike, Al, and I, to go to California.
H-Uh huh. And so, you weren’t involved in that aspect of it? Were you involved in any of the
negotiations between the bishop and the and the growers?
Fr. C-No.
H-You weren’t sitting in on any of those talks?
Fr. C-No. I think that was Father Peña who did most-more than anybody else who had been here.
H-Who of the others were very active in-what was the role-you talked about Jim Lions, Father
Jim Lions. What role did he play in this? Do you recall? Where was he stationed?
Fr. C-He was in Mercedes. At that time, when I first got to the valley, he ended up in San Juan as
the director of the retreat house when I left. And he was very much involved with the Cursillo
Movement. Whether he had any involvement with the Chicano Movement, as such, I don’t know
and I can’t speak to that.
H-The –when did you become involved with the Cursillo Movement?
Fr. C-While I was there in San Juan I learned about it, and through contact with Jim Lions. We
used to talk a lot. And so, when I ended up in Denver, I was spiritual director for some of the
cursillos there and got used to it. And so,
H-When were you in Denver?
Fr. C-I was in Denver from ’82 to ’86. I was vicar for Hispanic Ministry for the archdiocese.
H-Yeah, that’s a little beyond the time we’re covering at this point. What was the involvement of
the other members of this group? We talked-Farther Jerry Barrett, what was his involvement in
this? Do youFr. C-He wasH-I’m trying basically to see who else should be interviewed.
Fr. C-He was assistant pastor in Pharr, at the time that there wasH-The riots?
Fr. C-The riots. Yes. And he talked about trying to quiet things down there. I had already left the
valley; I was in San Antonio by that time. And I think he was very strong in promoting, again the
youth, Catholic young adults there who also became somewhat, I don’t know to what extent, but
became more involved in the social issues of the area. The other one that probably would’ve
been in that group and was heavily involved with some of these social issues was Father Jerry
Frank, a diocesan priest.
H-Oh yeah, yeah. I’ve heard him mentioned, yeah.
Fr. C-And um-
H-Where was he?
Fr. C-He started out as an intern before his ordination with Roberto Peña in Los Ebanos. And, I
guess, by the time I worked with him, it was in ’71 when I got to Brownsville, he was involved
in setting up Esperanza Home for Boys, which was a house/a home for juvenile delinquents
whom the court sent over there.
H-OK. You know, maybe on a trip down to Brownsville I’ll look him up. One of the things that
happened at the time of Medeiros being bishop was Harry Shookenbrock, Father Harry
Shookenbrock doing this huge survey on visits. Do you remember that project? Figuring out
where, you know, there were going to be-every home in the valley was going to be visited by a
group of people.
Fr. C-Yeah, it was called Visitors for Christ.
H-Yeah.
Fr. C-And, yeah I remember that, because I had toH-WhatFr. C-I had to organize it in San Juan, ha.
H-Ha, ha, yeah right, so how did that go? What was this Visitors for Christ? Talk a little bit, to
me, about that.
Fr. C-Well, it was, I think, a very good effort to get a sense of the demographics of the valley,
because there were some detailed questions. I don’t recall the questions now. And it was also a
form of having lay involvement, lay people taking ownership and leadership in the church, by
going out to visit and just be friends with people, and in the meantime be learning more about
this.
H-It was an attempt to visit all the parishioners?
Fr. C-Yes.
H-All the Catholics or everybody in the valley?
Fr. C-I don’t recall if it was all the Catholics or everybody in the valley. But you had to-you
couldn’t assume that everybody was a Catholic, so you had to-you couldn’t pick and choose.
You just went house by house, block by block.
H-Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was widely publicized.
Fr. C-Yes.
H-In fact, if the visitors missed out on getting visited they’d complain, “Nobody has come to
visit me.” Ha, ha.
Fr. C-Yeah. And there’s other programs, now, today who emphasize that whole notion of home
visits.
H-Uh huh. The other big issue, or one of the big issues, not the other but one of the big issues
was the famous MAYO meeting in ’69, ’70 I believe, at San Juan-at La Lomita, rather. And after
the meeting the students went out and painted the statue brown. Where were you during the time
of the famous-ha,ha?
Fr. C-I was in St. Anthony’s at that time.
H-You were in St. Anthony’s at the time.
Fr. C-Yes. Yeah.
H-And it caused quite a stir among conservative Catholics down there, at the time.
Fr. C-Yes.
H-What was the sense of the, you know, the Oblate Council and so on. Do you remember who
was on the Oblate Council at the time? Blackburn, Father Blackburn was the provincial.
Fr. C-There was quite a bit of division among the Oblates. Many of them thought it was highly
insulting and were very much offended by that.
H-There were rumors at some point, and it’s in the newspaper, that there was a video tape. If I
understand, not that this is the burning issue of the day, you know, ha, ha, that they painted the
statue brown. It was repainted white, and then they went back and repainted it brown. And there
was an accusation that-by Father Joe O’Brian, Joseph O’Brian, that there or may have been some
sacrilegious activities on the part of the students, and that he had a video tape. Do you remember
anything about that video tape?
Fr. C-This is the firstH-Do you remember hearing about that video tape?
Fr. C-I don’t even remember hearing about the video tape to be honest with you. But having
known Joe O’Brian, I doubt if that existed.
H-Ha, ha. Yeah right, ha, ha. He ended up getting very much involved with social issues later on
and with Valley Interfaith, I understand.
Fr. C-Yes, in Port Isabel.
H-Yeah. And had a clinic named after him, or something like that, yeah.
Fr. C-That’s right, yeah.
H-But that was way after the Chicano Movement.
Fr. C-That’s right.
H-The other person, I think he was in McAllen at the time of the statue. The other person that
made some comments, if I remember the newspapers correctly, was Father Hennessey. Who
would we be talking about at that time? What Hennessey? Is that Thomas Hennessey or
something?
Fr. C-No it was Ken Hennessey.
H-Ken.
Fr. C-Who was pastor at Guadalupe in Mission at the time.
H-Oh, that’s right, that’s right.
Fr. C-And Joe O’Brian, at that time, chaplain at the state prison in Huntsville. I don’t know why
he came down, or how he got involved with it, but he did. And Hennessey was very much a kind
of a-he was a good man who loved the people, was kind and generous to them, but at the same
time, I think, socially he was somewhat conservative. So he didn’t like change too much.
H-Uh huh. Had he-hadn’t this Father Hennessey been the pastor at Mercedes for some time?
Fr. C-No.
H-I remember knowing a Father Hennessey who was a pastor in Mercedes.
Fr. C-No it was Kennedy.
H-Oh, Kennedy.
Fr. C-Kennedy.
H-Oh, OK. Oh, alright. Who else, you know, one talks to, someone like Father Peña and to Mike
Allen, and their impression is well, you know, the bishop kind of put it into perspective. I mean
after all, this is not the-this is not a big issue, I mean, you know. Although some lay, lay persons,
Mexican-American laity were apparently also offended by it. I don’t know if you heard about
that?
Fr. C-Offended by?
H-The painting of the statue brown.
Fr. C-Oh yes, I’m sure they were. But see, like I told you, I was here in St. Anthony’s at the time,
so I was not on the scene-
H-So, you weren’t here to get the sense of it?
Fr. C-to get the sense of-but I’m sure there would have been people who were opposed to it.
Because I know that there is a streak of conservatism among Mexican Americans and Catholics
in the valley. There was a group very strongly opposed to Bishop Fitzpatrick’s opening, or
support for Casa Romero, a home for refugees coming in from El Salvador. When he got
involved-when he supported Catholic-Valley Interfaith, they formed a group to oppose him. So
there was this, what they call it, Catholics United for the Faith?
H-Yeah.
Fr. C-Somehow established a chapter in Harlingen that were fighting the formation of Valley
Interfaith, protesting bishop support for immigrants. In fact, Bishop Fitzpatrick took a stand and
defended a person who was accused by the federal government of transporting and harboring
illegals. So uhH-And he got flack for that?
Fr. C-Huh?
H-He got flack for supporting theFr. C-That’s right.
H-Yeah. So the-your second stay at San Juan, how long was that?
Fr. C-Seven years.
H-Seven years? And that was at-what years were those? Let me refresh my memory again.
Fr. C-’74 until ’81.
H-OK.
Fr. C-And um-
H-So by that time, many of the demonstrations sort of had cooled off and some of the elections
started taking place and the movimiento was-Raza Unida had already run two elections, statewide elections by that time, and the movimiento was sort of moving, you know, fading away
right? Or was there still activities down in San Juan?
Fr. C-I think the-by that time, I think, the results of the movimiento were showing its fruits by
the people who became leaders in positions of authority, in the school boards, in the cities, and
county and so on.
H-So, do you remember-once these people, like you described, figured out they could have an
impact on these organizations, sort of took the ball on their own? Or do you remember yourself
being involved in things after that, or you were more concerned with the running of the shrine
and all of that, you know? Now you had to run the school itself. Ha, ha, yeah right, ha, ha.
Fr. C-Yeah, no I didn’t have the school by that time, it was closed.
H-Oh you didn’t have the school, ha, ha.
Fr. C-But I would say that these people who came into these positions were not-they were not
looking for me to give them direction, and I didn’t want to either because my instinct has always
been, if a lay person has the qualifications and knows what he is doing, what she is doing, they
should be given the authority, and besides it’s not the role of the church to go tell the mayor,
“This is what you need to do.”
H-Yeah.
Fr. C-or to tell the school board. So, many of those people-we remain on good terms and they
call me and we see each other socially, or would sometimes ask questions, but in terms of having
an involvement, no.
H-Yeah. So that you-the role of-your role changed from what it had been before.
Fr. C-That’s right.
H-Where you had-you had been consulted a whole lot more, you actually went out there to
encourage people to get involved, and so on. And once the ball got rolling it, you know, it just
rolled on its own, so to speak?
Fr. C-That’s right.
H-Do you want to-have I missed anything? You know, one of the problems with my asking
questions is that, I don’t want to drive the-this is your story after all.
Fr. C-No, I think we covered pretty much what I had thought about which was basically the farm
workers, MAYO, and theH-War on poverty.
Fr. C-War on poverty, theH-How long were you on that board on the war on poverty, approximately?
Fr. C-Well maybe two and half, three years, I forget.
H-Did-was there an election for you to serve on that board? Is that how you got on that board?
Fr. C-No, I think it was because there was no formal local board in the city. They just-I was kind
of like the sponsor, you might say, of the daycare center and so they asked me to serve on that.
H-How big was the daycare center?
Fr. C-It was not very big. It holds thirty five to fifty children. I forget now.
H-Good. Well thankFr. C-I don’t think that there’s anything more.
H-Yeah. Thank you very much. You know, you might consider at some point writing about this
yourself. And we’ll at some point download this from the tapes into a DVD which we’ll send to
you, and you can re-watch this on the computer, and you, at that time, you might want to-we’re
beyond editing at that point but-or at any point, because the interview is for the record. But you
might want to use this as an incentive to actually write about all of this, your involvement and
all. Do you have any documents or any papers? Because the other thing we encourage people to
do is to, if you do have personal papers related to this period, that you, you know, leave them
with-at an archives. The Oblate Archives would be fine. My co-investigator here, co-researcher,
Sister Maria Eva Flores actually has an archives, a Mexican-American archives at Our Lady of
the Lake. And I will get punished if I don’t you know, ha, ha, reprimanded.
Fr. C-Well I don’t-I’m not much for writing.
H-OK.
Fr. C-So, if I have any papers related to this, to these events, I don’t think I do. If I do, they’re
going to the Oblate archives.
H-Yeah. That’s-it’s fine. We’re not just pushing our archives or Our Lady of the Lake’s archives,
but we’re saying we want all of this to be part of the public record and somewhere. Like the
Oblate archives is fine, because once they stay in private hands, you know, they often get thrown
away or that kind of thing. You’re also welcome to, once you see this, to do another recording on
your own, on just a regular recoding and send us the tape.
Fr. C-OK.
H-Thank you very much.
Fr. C-Alright.