Time
Words spoken
00:00:30
Persons
speaking
Wilberforce
00:00:40
Steven
00:01:16
00:01:22
00:01:27
Wilberforce
Steven
Wilberforce
00:01:57
00:02:03
Steven
Wilberforce
00:03:43
00:03:48
Steven
Wilberforce
00:05:33
Steven
Wilberforce perhaps you could just tell me, how many people were in your
family before the genocide?
There was my wife and I and our five children.
And how many of your family are left after the genocide?
After the genocide, we remained three of us; my son John Murengezi and the
one who was our last-born Céline Uwineza.
Can you tell me a little bit about your wife? What was she like?
I met my wife a long time ago when we were still in secondary school; we went
to the same school. We fell in love then. After high school, we were engaged
for four other years before we got married. Then in 1971, we got married.
Therefore, she was not a girl I just met and married but we were together for a
long time before marriage. Even our parents knew each other because they were
both pastors in the Episcopal Church in Rwanda.
So we spent thirty-three years together. Sorry that wasn’t true; by 1994, we had
been married for twenty-three years. We had two sons and three daughters
together in those twenty-three years.
Tell me about your second child.
My second born was called Jean-Claude. He was a very tall guy. He was in his
6th year of secondary school, almost finishing high school. He was a very quiet
guy. He liked listening to the radio news, which used to make me predict that
maybe in the future he would become a journalist or a politician.
There’s nothing much I can say about him because he was not very talkative.
But he loved to listen to others talking. There’s nothing more I can say. When I
was leaving, I called him and told him to be the one to drive the car when they
go to a place where they were planning to go with his mother. The last thing I
told him was not to drive too fast and to be careful on the road. That’s all I can
say.
Tell me about your third child.
00:05:39
Wilberforce
00:06:26
00:06:37
Steven
Wilberforce
00:07:41
00:07:49
Steven
Wilberforce
My name is Murengezi Wilberforce. I am 58 years old.
She was a girl called Kayitesi Claudette. She was also in her last year of
secondary school. She was not very healthy but she was very bright in school. I
thought she would have a very good future. As any parent I wanted the best for
her and since she was very good in science, I thought she was going to be a
medical doctor.
What about the fourth born?
My fourth child was Francine Ingabire. You have her on your photos. She loved
her sister Claudette very much; she loved to swim. She was always there to talk
to us after work, she would chat with us and ask her what we needed. Not many
children do that but she would come and ask us if we wanted a drink or some
water or tea. She was a child who cared a lot about her parents. Perhaps more
than her older brothers and sisters did.
What is your special memory of her?
It is hard for one to say what he or she remembers about their family members
because there are so many things to remember; it is one’s entire life. It is
00:09:29
00:09:33
Steven
Wilberforce
00:10:13
00:10:19
Steven
Wilberforce
00:14:09
Wilberforce
difficult to accept that you bring up your children and see them growing, not
lacking anything and one day it all goes.
It takes some strength to even acknowledge it and accept that it is actually
possible. It was something very difficult to believe. Death is normal but it’s a
big issue when your family just disappear all at once. It is difficult to even
understand it. Sometimes it makes you wonder how God can allow such things
to happen but He probably has His own plans that we cannot fully understand
as human beings.
I remember how on the morning before I left, I thought that maybe I was not
going to come back since I was going on a journey. So I left a note for my wife
telling her where the money was hidden.
Can you still believe in God after all that?
Yes I do believe in God and I still work for Him until this day. I am not a Pastor
like my father but I do what I can. I love to sing and I lead some children in a
choir. I do it because I guess there is a mission that God left me to complete in
my remaining lifetime.
Can you tell me how your wife and your children died?
I wasn’t there like I told you before. But Céline my daughter who survived told
me some of the things. Also some neighbours who escaped death by hiding and
fleeing told me about it.
We were living in Kicukiro. On the first day they came to ask my family, “Who
is Murengezi?” They told them I was not there. They shot my wife on the feet
and said, “We shall come back. Find him!” They did not come back until the 8th
when my family went to hide in a convent which was in the neighbourhood. On
the 10th, they came and told them that everybody should go down, as they
wanted to check their identity cards. They stood next to a roadblock and took
them to a hole nearby, one by one.
Some were shot dead, others were killed with a hammer, and some others were
hacked. In fact, someone told me that my wife was last taken as she was
limping and they shot her inside the hole where the others were. The hole is still
there; we have constructed it. About a hundred people in our neighbourhood
died and we buried them all together in the same grave, which we built up.
There were other people in my house apart from my wife and my children. The
people who were working for us were also there. There was a lady, a friend of
ours who used to work for us. She had stopped working for us as we got for her
another job, she happened to be at home on that day. They checked her ID and
found out she was a Hutu and they told her to leave. She was helping out my
wife who was wounded and she told them she wasn’t going to leave and they
could kill her if they wanted. So they murdered her right there next to my wife.
Because he was tall, Claude, according to what his sister told me, was beaten
with a club on his head and they threw him inside the hole. After hitting you
with a hammer or with something else, then they would shoot you in order to
stop people from making noise.
Some of the survivors told me about a soldier, I don’t know his name, who
came and told the Interahamwe to make sure they [victims] do not make too
much noise.“ Do it as fast as possible, don’t give them time to beg you to stop;
after beating them with a club just shoot them. We do not want people’s bodies
on the street as satellites are watching us.” I was told this by my neighbour who
managed to hide, his wife was also killed.
The truth is that I did not see any of this; it is my young daughter Céline who
told me about it. I don’t know if it is God who sent somebody but a soldier
came and said that all the young children should go back to the nuns’ home.
Céline was only nine years old then and so she went back to the nuns’ home
because that man told them to do so. The other thing that happened is that her
mother gave her the car keys and told her to give them to her dad [me] in case
she would be lucky to see him again. But she never gave them to me because
they were running and even the car was…
00:16:40
00:16:44
Steven
Wilberforce
00:17:14
0:18: 06
Steven
Wilberforce
00:20:20
Wilberforce
00:21:36
00:21:46
Steven
Wilberforce
What happened to Francine?
About Francine… I don’t know anything about what happened to her. Her
younger sister does not say anything about her although she saw many things
happen. But she just told me that they hacked her with a machete. I don’t like to
ask her too many questions, because I know she does not like to talk about it.
Sometimes when I ask her something she answers, but she is unable to have a
long conversation about it.
What does it mean to be a parent who has lost his wife and his children?
At first, it felt like it was a nightmare but as time goes you get to realize that it
has actually happened because you do not get to see them anymore! Sometimes
I talk to them at night as if they were still around! It is a big problem because it
can never disappear completely.
God blessed me with another wife and two more children. You can never
completely forget, especially at this time of the year you think about them and
remember them. You can never be the same person again, your character and
your whole being change. You can never forget; it is impossible! After living
the family you lived with for twenty-five years, I have told you that I met my
wife in my childhood and we grew up together, we got married and we got kids
and suddenly it was all gone. Sometimes you wonder why you survived!
But later on, God helps you and finds you another wife to help you through
everything. She even helps me to bring up the children who remained, as it is
difficult to bring up children on your own as a man. But when you are lucky to
have a good wife, she helps you out to bring them up and they grow up. They
are now grown ups, my first-born son John is now married with kids and today
I am a grandfather. Céline is now at the university. They were both young
children and I even got two more beautiful children. I thank God for those
children and for the other wife He gave me so she can be my new companion in
the remaining lifetime.
Can you forgive the people that did this?
It is a very tough question. Because, for one to be able to forgive, you first of all
need to know whom you’re forgiving, you cannot forgive if no one asks you to
forgive him or her or when you don’t know who it is you’re forgiving. Or
maybe when nobody has come to ask for forgiveness so that you can at least
acknowledge that they were going through some sort of madness. The word
“forgiveness” is a tough one. But I believe if someone would come to me and
say, “I betrayed you, I murdered your wife, I murdered your kids”, I would
forgive them. I’d also become a murderer if I killed them. I would truly forgive
them but the question is who to forgive. Who is it? Not all Hutus killed.
Therefore you cannot say that you’re forgiving the Hutus. You need to know
who did it and then be able to say that, so and so did this to me but I forgive
him or her.
As a Christian I know it is written, “forgive others as I forgive you.” Therefore,
00:25:30
Steven
00:25:39
Wilberforce
00:27:05
Steven
00:27:44
Wilberforce
as a believer I truly believe it is possible to forgive but you ought to know
whom you are forgiving. So if they came before me and asked me to forgive
them, I could do it. That’s the way I can put it. But the condition is that they
would say it. You cannot forgive in general. Who is it you’re forgiving?
I think that is what we lack here in Rwanda, that someone would come and
acknowledge that they betrayed you, that they killed your people. If it were the
case, people would forgive. Very few people acknowledge what they did and
you wonder if these people killed themselves, if they just happened to die. It is
so obvious when you compare the number of the victims to the number of those
who acknowledge being the perpetrators of the genocide.
The same people who were our neighbours. I’ll give you the example of one of
my neighbours called Simbizi, there was one house between his and mine. We
had known each other for a long time. When they arrested him they asked me to
come and identify him. When I got there they asked him if he knew me, he said
no! You see how difficult it is! Someone we used to live with and spend a lot of
time with, his child used to come home and share meals with mine and he said
he doesn’t know me and yet we were neighbours!
Despite the fact that we were neighbours, he said he didn’t know me. That
shows how much forgiveness will be difficult as long as Rwandans will not tell
the truth about what they did. Otherwise, forgiveness is for sure the ideal thing
to do.
So is justice possible or not? Do you feel justice has been done for your
children?
So far, no! No justice has been done so far! In my opinion, not yet and I believe
even others feel the same way. Because what justice can be done to somebody
who wiped out your children, all your family? What do you gain when they are
imprisoned for five, or six or ten years?
What punishment is that? Justice will be done according to the laws of the
country, but many will never be known and that is a very big issue because
many have fled from where their former residence. They now live in places
where they are not known. Or maybe they are known but nobody has the
courage to report them for fear that they might take revenge afterwards. It is a
very big issue in Rwanda. It will be very difficult unless they ask for
forgiveness and confess their sin and acknowledge them.
How does it make you feel personally that you weren’t there when your family
died?
I got sick, with a weird sickness I had never heard of before. My whole body
was itching and I was scratching myself all over. I went to see a Doctor and
they couldn’t give me any medication. The Psychologist told me that it’s ok to
cry when I feel like it and that I could do it as much as I wanted maybe when I
am alone. I was in Nairobi, Kenya then, all by myself. During the day I used to
walk around and spend time with others who were in the same situation. But
almost every night, I would remember everything and I would feel like I did not
know where I was.
In reality, apart from my close family, I lost many other relatives. My big
brother who was also my neighbour, his wife and my father, some children who
were living with them, you know the way the African family is, were also all
killed. There was my brother-in-law and his wife and their six children who had
also died. My father-in-law and my mother-in-law also died. It felt like you
were left completely on your own. John is the only one I knew who was still
00:30:03
Wilberforce
00:31:05
00:31:16
Steven
Wilberforce
00:33:37
00:33:49
Steven
Wilberforce
alive because he was studying abroad and we used to talk on phone. At that
time I didn’t know that Céline survived, I thought she also died.
So I felt like there was no one left, either on my side, or on my wife’s side.
We were lucky to later on find out that two of our relatives survived as they
took refuge at Mille Collines Hotel. Also two of my wife’s sisters survived. So
after the war, being able to find out that some people were still alive was very
encouraging and motivated us to want to continue to live and give your best.
Especially because somebody needed to look after the children who survived so
that they could study and live a good life and achieve something.
How would you like them to be remembered?
Especially on the days that were made for remembrance, on the 7th, the day of
commemoration is a day one gets to remember them a lot. Even though we
remember them anyway, that day is a day you share with other Rwandans in
doing so and it helps us to think together and look for a way for this never to
happen again in Rwanda. And that it should not happen to anybody else
worldwide because it is terrible!
I also enjoy looking at their photos. My sister who was living in Kinshasa,
Congo DRC had many of their photos. She is the one who gave me even the
photos I showed you since the house and everything in it was burnt up.
So I sometimes sit down and look at them and I remember! I think about them
and wonder how the children would be today, how their mother would be… It
is something I remember very much. Nobody can stop you from remembering
your people who were so much part of your life. Even though some people do
not want us to remember or to talk about it, we cannot forget them. We will
always remember and even our children need to be told about it. Perhaps our
biggest mistake was that we never believed it could actually happen.
But now we know it is possible, we are aware that people can betray others and
wipe up entire families. It is something we need to fight against in our thinking
and this can be done through teaching and also in fighting against it with all our
strength.
What does Rwanda need to do to avoid the same thing in the future?
That’s what I was just talking about. The first thing is through educating
people, to explain to people the badness that lies in doing wrong. Doing the
wrong thing always has consequences on anyone. I believe the people who did
it also suffered while they were fleeing their homes, walking kilometres with
their families, dying of hunger and of sickness. It would never have happened if
they did not do what they did. For Rwanda to avoid falling into the same
problem again, the first thing is to teach people. I am happy about the work of
today’s government, taking people in training camps and showing them all the
consequences.
Education is very important and I guess it will take a long time just like division
was first taught in Rwanda in 1959. And for thirty years each generation was
taught hatred. It will take the same amount of time for the next generations to
be taught that Hutu do not have to hate the Tutsi or vice-versa. It will take long
but the important thing to know is that for Rwandans to get to the point of
committing genocide, it took very many years. It is something we were taught
in school. I was once a teacher and it is something that was given in the school
programme. And I myself had to say it even though I did not believe in it.
There was a lot of propaganda. I believe Rwanda needs to do a lot of teaching
as it has already started it. I do believe that if the teaching is well done, and if
00:37:00
Wilberforce
00:37:19
Steven
00:37:45
Wilberforce
the example and the focus are good, the result will be very good in the next
generations. Maybe people will still remember but we will always know how
the policy and the teaching were wrong. It will end slowly. Perhaps it would be
very hard for the people of my generation to forget… well one could pretend
that he or she could, but there would still be something.
But I believe that the younger generation and the youth, if they keep on
teaching…. Educational method is the primary idea. After all, it was through
education that everything came up. Therefore, education is what will take it
away. Nothing else can!
Finally what is your… How do you feel about the future? Wilberforce, who are
you today and how do you view the future? Are you optimistic? Are you
faithful? How do you feel?
Ha Ha…! [He laughs] in the beginning I told you that I am a man of God. I
have faith that things will be good. I trust in a better future for our country. The
future of our country will be good; but for it to be good, we will need to work
towards it. If we do not work for it, it won’t happen; but if we do, our future
will be good. It is not only Murengezi’s responsibility or the government’s
responsibility. All Rwandans need to understand that if we want to build a
better future and to avoid what we went through in the past, we will have to
work on it. Things will never happen miraculously. That’s all I can tell you.