TEACHING BUSINESS WITH ETHICS-BASED CASES
KENNETH GOODPASTER
MARCH 23, 2012
Interactivity Summary - Polls and Chats (Edited to Share Only Useful Materials)
Welcome and Introductions
Kevin Kelly: Welcome everyone! Please introduce yourself--tell us who you are, where you are and what
you do.
Kenneth Goodpaster: Ken Goodpaster, Minneapolis, Professor
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: Lisa Gallant. I live in PEI, Canada, and conduct seminars for
students in the last stages of the credentialling process of my professional (accounting) organization
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Michael Droll, Ph.D., Adjunct Professor, Santa Fe College in Gainesville,
Florida. I teach Organization Development and Org Behavior. Coming up on a full week on ethics soon.
Looking to expand my students horizons on the topic of ethical behavior.
Denis: Greetings everyone!
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: Rachel Spooner, Boston University School of Management. I teach
law and ethics to both undergraduates and graduates. We are expanding our ethics curriculum right now,
so I am excited to learn some new ideas.
Activity 1a: What is your experience with cases for other subjects?
I use cases several times each term — 55.56% [of participants responded]
I use cases occasionally each term — 33.33%
I have never used cases — 11.11%
Activity 1b: What is your experience with cases for ethics?
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I use cases several times each term — 28.57% [of participants responded]
I use cases occasionally each term — 57.14%
I have never used cases — 14.29%
Activity 2: What is a case, as you understand it?
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: situation based off of either hypothetical or real life
FREDERICK KOCH [Brampton, ON]: A real life fact scenario that presents an issue or problem
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: A situational context in which the student is asked to play a role
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: A case would be a scenario that presents the facts of a situation - and the leads
students into discussio
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: A fact scenario that enables students to analyze options and draw
conclusions
Activity 3a: Illustrations of mitigating practices that might help avoid FIXATION
FREDERICK KOCH [Brampton, ON]: balanced life
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: Taking the time to articulate your life principles before you get into
the work environment
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: remembering that it isn't all about me
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Follow a personal "leadership" plan and seek companies with good fit.
Activity 3b: Illustrations of mitigating practices that might help avoid RATIONALIZATION
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: Having a person in your life that is a good sounding board, and will
challenge your rationalizations.
FREDERICK KOCH [Brampton, ON]: bounce it off another person - get feedback
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: be objective
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Agreed. Group interaction/discussion.
Activity 3c: Illustrations of mitigating practices that might help avoid DETACHMENT
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FREDERICK KOCH [Brampton, ON]: time out to step back and see big picture
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: Doing a systematic 'dial in' to your conscience routinely.
Corporations could make it part of HR / leadership practice.
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Refer back to our personal leadership plan...where do I wan to be...
General Chat
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Pls share Ken's responses to the 3 symptoms...engagement for detachment, etc.
Kevin Kelly: Fixation, Rationalization, Detachment
Kevin Kelly: See slide 17 of Ken's presentation (Teach_Business_1_Goodpaster_final.pdf) -- e-mailed to
participants yesterday and posted above in the Slides and Handouts pod
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Thanks!
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: The symptoms are on page 17, not the responses... ie:
detachment:engagement
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Right, we would like his "responses."
Kevin Kelly: I see. The session is being recorded, so we can put those responses in the Interactivity
Summary...If there's time, we can ask him to repeat them before the end of his segment
Kenneth Goodpaster: I did not offer a slide on the responses to fixation, rationalization, and detachment,
except the HBR quotation slide.
Kenneth Goodpaster: The three responses that I mentioned were PERSPECTIVE (VS. FIXATION)...
Kenneth Goodpaster: FRANKNESS (VS. RATIONALIZATION)
Kenneth Goodpaster: AND ENGAGEMENT (VS. DETACHMENT).
Activity 4a: Illustrations of INTEREST-based thinking in your experience
FREDERICK KOCH [Brampton, ON]: See overemphasis on common good at sacrifice of virtues based
in student grading
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: A discussion of "Obamacare" would fit into this discussion in all four areas.
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: Many things would fit into all four. Great model.
Activity 4b: Illustrations of RIGHTS-based thinking in your experience
Denis: With each passing year individual rights take on greater importance in decision-making ... the
rights of the business versus the rights of employees, customers, and community
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RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: We do a mediation exercise regarding the teaching of same sex
marriage in elementary school. This isn't really business, but it is a great example of conflicting rights
(right to control your child's education v. right to control your curriculum as a school)
Activity 4c: Illustrations of DUTIES-based thinking in your experience
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: keeping people "on board even though they should be fired/let go
as a result of a promise or sense of loyalty
Activity 4d: Illustrations of VIRTUES-based thinking in your experience
Denis: It would be virtuous for the Business School to give some of our resources to the Liberal Arts
faculty, but we usually don't. :)
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: students wanting to redo assignments or be given extra time simply
to improve their grade (when others don't have the same opportunity)
General Chat
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: Thanks for the accounting perspective! 'Helps me.
Activity 5: How do you place to use cases in the future?
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Plan to invesigate cases and use such a ystematic assessment of healthcare
issues using a model in lieu of intuition.
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: I have never found a method of using cases that can be so organized (I am an
Accounting teacher - who teaches Fraud Examination). I think this is wonderful. Thank you so much for
presenting the CAT Scan. In the future I can present a case involving ethics and have some idea of how
to focus the discussion.
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: I already use lots of cases, (Including Sadhu and Martha
McCaskey), but this gave me some ideas for focusing the discussion. Thanks.
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RETHINKING UNDERGRADUATE BUSINESS EDUCATION:
LIBERAL LEARNING FOR THE PROFESSION
TOM EHRLICH AND WILLIAM M. SULLIVAN
MARCH 23, 2012
Activity 1: To what extent does the definition of liberal learning reflect aims in business education?
No participant responses
Activity 2: What are the strengths of ANALYTICAL THINKING in achieving the goals of liberal
learning in case teaching – or in business education more generally?
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: students will follow a consistent path or method to solving a
problem or case that is given; almost like a set of rules they follow
FREDERICK KOCH [Brampton, ON]: provides an approach to analyzing cases and apply general
concepts to different fact situations
Denis: Analytical thinking forces students to better understand the complexity of issues under analysis.
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Structure to encourage critical/analytical thinking.
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: Analytical thinking gives students the confidence to attack new
problems, because they have the skills to address them in a manner consistent with earlier experiences
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: Analytical thinking will require that students look at not only an issue but the
effects of that issue - going beyond simply the identification of the issue.
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: This is interesting because as a lawyer, law school really just
teaches you analytical thinking, and ignores the real skills needed as a lawyer, such as creative thinking
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: I'm a fallen lawyer too...
Activity 3: Are there ways to enhance the teaching of facility with MULTIPLE FRAMING in
business cases – or in business education more generally?
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Bolman and Deal, exactly!
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: I find assigning roles in cases to be helpful in having students look
at different frames. They learn from each other.
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: In managerial accounting we teach students how to prepare budgets - but also
need to have them think about how budgets will impact the people.
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: Multi-stakeholder focus in cases..
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Kenneth Goodpaster: Using the "four avenues of ethical analysis" (interests, rights, duties, virtues) is one
way to achieve multiple framing.
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: Agree.
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: Patti, I have students prepare personal budgets first, then we
discuss how it is the same as corporations; I also show a YouTube video about our national debt to put
things in perspective
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Smyth's 5 Stages of Reflection: Describing, Informing, Confronting, and
Reconstructing.
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: In our UNIV class we teach students to consider the impact of
producing products in foreing countries - affects the lives of those employees economically. They make
the products we want and that changes their economic life..
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: In today's society we hear so much about the corporate profits , how they must be
somewhat bad - but these same people do not think about how those profits affect that abiltiy of a
business to continue. If the business does not continue, the first bad thing that will happen is that people
will lose their jobs and suffer hardships. This can be a real "Catch-22".
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: The other point that I bring up, Patti, is that executives often have
no real family life, and work a minimum of 80 hours per week, and have a high degree of stress placed on
them..just so others still have a job
Activity 4: This mode--RELATIVE EXPLORATION OF MEANING--is often weak in the teaching
of business, including case teaching. How could it be developed there?
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: I have recently started a blog for my class. I post about current
events relevant to the course, and students respond. Then we often continue the discussion in class. I have
found that I get an astounding amount of self reflection and openness in the student comments on my
blog. Then those same students continue that openness in class (hopefully).
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Any writing assignment that can be student-reflection using John Smyth's four
forms of action: Describing, Informing, Confronting, and Reconstructing (How might I do things
differently?). Smyth, J. 1989)
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: When I ask students questions that appear to be "textbook"
answers, I sometimes play devil's advocate to get them to thinking why they agree/disagree with the text
and how others feel. For example, I teach taxation, so we can discuss a wide aray of areas..This
challenges them to think through why they think the way they do
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Substitute a reflection perspective for "outlining" for any writing assignment.
Minimize the what and focus on the why and how...
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: Because I teach the forensic accounting / fraud examination courses, we so often
discuss the "why" of the cases that we review. What impact these cases - from ZZZZ Best to Madoff have on the country, the economy, and people. This type of reflection has provided a large number of
comments related to trust. Rachel - I love your idea of blogs!!
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RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: When I teach law cases to my undergrads, particularly Supreme
Court cases, I find that the students accept the Court's words as true without question. So I tend to teach
the cases by asking them to brainstorm in small groups reasons why the Court is wrong.
Kenneth Goodpaster: To Michael: The CAT Scan is published in Conscience and Corporate Culture, so
can certainly be used with citation.
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Many thanks--will obtain!
Kevin Kelly: Michael, the site for Ken's book can be found here:
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1405130393.html
Kevin Kelly: The site listed for the book Tom and Bill wrote with their colleagues Anne Colby and
Jonathan Dolle: http://carnegiehighered.org/
Activity 5: Case teaching often includes this mode of thinking--i.e., PRACTICAL REASONING.
How can we ensure an ethical framing of such teaching? Could anything from the C.A.T. Scan
model of the previous session be helpful?
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: If students are using a framework, or some sort of systematic
approach to constructed case responses, they might include an ethics item on their checklist
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Definately. I am hoping that Ken Goodpaster is open to CAT widespread use-copyright???
Kenneth Goodpaster: Sam Goldwyn once said "For your information, let me ask you a question!" -- the
CAT Scan model asks fertile questions of students.
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: I find that asking students to not just analyze the problem and
provide options for the protaganist in the case, but instead to actually articulate what they would say to
execute those options, immediately highlights the ethical problems.
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: In any case - whether it is a financial case or a fraud case - it is necessary to ask
students (and yourself) about the ethics of what is presented in the csae.
General Chat
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: The National Association of State Boards of Accountancy are looking at
requiring 2 ethics courses for all accounting students - general ethics and accounting/business ethics.
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: Patti: We have two courses at UTEP one called Ethics for all
Business Students and one for students majoring in Accunting and anticipating taking the CPA exam
which is "Ethics for Accountants" which I teach. It is a case based course.
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: We have two different ethics courses as well; one for accountants
and one for business
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: Hi Marjorie and Melanie - I would love to hear more about both classes particulary your Ethics for Accountants. My e-mail at work is patti.fedje@minotstateu.edu
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BUSINESS ETHICS CASE STUDY TEACHING METHODS
TEACHING BUSINESS WITH ETHICS-BASED CASES
DENIS COLLINS
MARCH 23, 2012
Activity 1a: Why do you think Bernie Madoff created a $50 Billion Ponzi Scheme?
ACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: Because he could.
Tech Host - Lisa Berry: b'c he could
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: His ego wanted to figure out how much he could get away with.
FREDERICK KOCH [Brampton, ON]: greed and lack of empathy for others
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: it probably didn't start off that way, and then once he started down
that slope, he couldn't stop
Activity 1c: Why do you think Bernie Madoff created a $50 Billion Ponzi Scheme?
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: Because he could!
FREDERICK KOCH [Brampton, ON]: Lack of moral upbringing
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: Didn't mean to be flippant
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: The power he had was impossible to let go
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: it didn't start off that way, but now that's it’s started, he kept going
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Greed without oversight...
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: Slippery slope. Easy to take the first steps, hard to stop
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: Madoff did not care about what he was doing to others
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: He already knew he was big-time illegal, but saw no
consequences - even when Mom was under scrutiny
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: trying to impress Dad?
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: What is different about Bernie are his goals. He wants to be known
as a powerful force in the finance industry. If notoriety is your goal, or making money is your only goal,
you get into trouble.
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MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: He did not want to let anyone know that what he was doing
was illegal so he just started covering up his illegal activities. His ego got in the way.
What would you do if Bernie, your dad, asked you to wait 7 days?
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Why did you not wait and tell me on the 7th day!!!
FREDERICK KOCH [Brampton, ON]: You give your dad the 7 days
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: Doesn't matter- any paybacks will be clawed back under bankruptcy
laws anyway!
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: my father would never ask me to do anything illegal or unethical,
so I would have to turn him in
Kevin Kelly: 1: Respect father's request for one week delay, or 2: Notify SEC and FBI immediately
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: great point, Rachel
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: One more week before I turn myself in.... implies one more week
to do some more damage. Can't trust him. Turn him in.
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Now Mark is part of the problem...not cool.
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: My gut would be to turn him in now.
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: Thinking about my father, I would first want to protect him as much as possible,
and my first reaction would be to give him the time. But knowing what a Ponzi scheme is, and that he
wanted to help the earlier investors to the detriment of others -- I would not give him the time.
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: True, Mark would be in jail if he waited. Sorry, I can't stop being a
lawyer
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: if he wanted a week, he should have taken it without involving me
- if he really wanted to help me :)
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: Yup
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: Hi Melanie - I love your comment! And you are absolutely right. Why in the
world would a loving parent put their children in that position.
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: Bernie Madoff has a Narcissistic personality.
Activity 3a: If you were a judge portioning out percentage of responsibility for damages, who is
responsible for what percent of the estimated $60 billion in damages from Deepwater Horizon oil
well blowout?
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: BP _40_% | Transocean _30_% | Halliburton _30_%
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: BP _33 1/3_% | Transocean _33 1/3_% | Halliburton _33 1/3_%
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RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: BP 33 1/3% | Transocean _33 1/3% | Halliburton 33 1/3%
Activity 3b: If you were a judge portioning out percentage of responsibility for damages, who is
responsible for what percent of the estimated $60 billion in damages from Deepwater Horizon oil
well blowout?
No participant responses
Activity 4a: Everyone knows that cigarettes are unhealthy. Should people who smoke win lawsuits
against cigarette companies to pay for healthcare costs caused by smoking?
Yes — 22.22% [of participants responded]
No — 77.78%
General Chat
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: Dennis, Do you use clickers in the classroom to do all these polls?
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: I use clickers in my classroom as well
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: I keep planning to start, but don't find the time to get it set up.
Maybe this will motivate me.
Activity 4b1: Is a ban the greatest good for the greatest number of people affected? (utilitarianism)
Yes — 88.89% [of participants responded]
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No — 11.11%
Activity 4b2: Is a ban based on truthfulness and respect/integrity toward each stakeholder?
(deontology)
Yes — 50% [of participants responded]
No — 50%
Activity 4b3: Is a ban what a virtuous person do? (virtue ethics)
Yes — 77.78% [of participants responded]
No — 22.22%
General Chat
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: Question: would banning cigarettes create another "prohibition"?
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: It would save on the national healthcare :)
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: I once wrote an editorial on how national healthcare (free for
Canadians) should be exclusive for non-smokers. I've changed my opinion as I got older. Perspective.
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: Making cigarettes illegal would cause a greater problem than
what we have today, from making drugs illegal.
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Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: Agree - I don't think there is any question that smoking causes many health
problems - three of which were responsible for my mother's death.
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: My father as well.
Activity 4c: Should cigarettes be banned?
Yes — 50% [of participants responded]
No — 50%
General Chat
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: gambling versus the lottery!
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: I have seen so many fraud cases where the perp was stealing so that he / she
would have money for gambling! BTW - we have legalized gambling in ND - blackjack in almost every
bar.
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: Where do we stop?
Q&A
How are you going to apply what you learned today?
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: I am going to open a blog of some kind for my fraud class.
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Comprehensive coverage on the ethics in business education and beyond.
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: I like the use of polls and charts to facilitate discussion of cases.
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: Case studies, and in particular ethics, should be taught across the
curriculum, not just in one class, since students don't understand how everything relates to each other
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Use Denis' question prompt on current event, ethical cases.
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: I am going to use more cases in my UNIV 1301 Business
class.
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: If you look at the requirements for AACSB it seems to require
that all classes include Ethics.
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RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: Most professors in the disciplines that I know think they are
teaching ethics in their courses, but when you ask students whether there was ethics covered, they all say
no.
I’m still wondering about…
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Where to find case studies/examples--any source or collection point via the
web?
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: HBR
Kevin Kelly: HBR = Harvard Business Review
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: Your book rep is a great resource. Ask them to point you to
some good books. I also have found great books by searching the internet. Read a simple book by
Robert Fulghum "All I Really Need to Know I learned in Kindergarten?.
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: source for cases specific to healthcare industry?
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: Michelle, there are cases on Healthsource in the textbooks.
Kevin Kelly: Michael, here is the book Tom Ehrlich mentioned: Tough Decisions: Cases in Medical
Ethics by John M. Freeman M.D. and Kevin McDonnell M.D.
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: Many thanks!!!
What, if anything, did you find confusing?
No participant responses.
The best thing I learned today was…
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: ...to add depth and application through systematic ethical decision-making.
Thanks!
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: I liked the process shown today compared to some of the others
that I have seen.
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: I am going to start a BLOG for my senior and graduate "Ethics
for Accountants"
I was most surprised to learn…
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: I was not aware of the early history of Bernie Madoff - I need to do more
research on this so that I can present it in my Fraud class.
Kevin Kelly: Patti, this speaks to Tom and Bill's discussion of Multiple Frames
Other thoughts…
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: Where do we stop - I had this conversation with my brother related to censorship.
He was arguing that the NEA should not be providing financing to "questionable" projects. I asked him
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who was going to decide what was questionable.
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: This is unfortunately the problem...at some point it seems that
someone is going to be dictating to someone else what they should believe or do
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: Each of us needs to realize that we are responsible for our own
actions. We need to lead by example.
Patti Fedje [Minot ND]: One of the most eye-opening situations in my life was when I took the first class
related to fraud and forensic accounting. When discussing the fraud triangle - pressure, opportunity,
rationalization - I realized that given the right set of circumstances, everyone can be dishonest. Abraham
Lincoln once kicked a man out of his office. His friend asked him why he had done that. Lincoln
responded, "Everyone has his price, and he was getting awfully close to mine."
Closing Remarks
Denis: Denis: My daily New York Times blog is at Blog: http://deniscollins.tumblr.com/
Kevin Kelly: Thanks, Denis!
Kevin Kelly: Links to Denis' two books mentioned at the beginning of his session: Business Ethics: How
to Design and Manage Ethical Organizations (http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCdEHEP002051.html)
Kevin Kelly: Essentials of Business Ethics: Creating an Organization of High Integrity and Superior
Performance (http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470442565.html)
LISA GALLANT [Charlottetown, PE]: Thanks
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: The County Mountie told me last week that 7 mph over is okay, but my 20
mph was not--my bad, but he was nice to give a warning.
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: I actually do a project in my class called "Walk the Talk" where
students compete to find the corporation that reflects its CSR the best- walks the talk.
Denis: Michael, I told both my kids to be the 2nd fastest car on the road, never the fastest one!
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: My students investigate positions they would like to be hired into--I plan to
have them check on the companies' code of ethics...
RACHEL SPOONER [Boston, MA]: I have to duck off early for family obligations...thanks to everyone.
The presentations were great.
Michael [Gainesville, FL]: My apologies--enjoyed and learning much from all. Farewell!
MARJORIE MARINOVIC [El Paso, TX]: Thanks to the people who organized this seminar. It was
excellent.
MELANIE HICKS [Lynchburg, VA]: Thank you!
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