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Universal Rocket Tooling, Motor Specifications, Thread
Index
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 10:12 AM (#105705)
Subject: Universal Rocket Tooling, Motor Specifications, Thread Index
Online
General introductory discussion:
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?
tid=11625&posts=64...
_________________
Expert
Black Powder Motors made with Universal Tooling
Posts: 6874
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?
tid=11629&posts=24...
_____________________
Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?
tid=11640&posts=8&...
____________________
Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?
tid=11646&posts=7&...
_________________
Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?
tid=11654&posts=12...
_____________________
Colored-Tailed Motors made with Universal Tooling
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?
tid=11647&posts=10...
________________________
Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?
tid=11667&posts=1&...
______________________
Hybrid #2 Motors made with Universal Tooling
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?
tid=11670&posts=1&...
_____________________
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Nozzleless Motors made with Universal Tooling
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?
tid=11671&posts=2&...
_______________________
Increment sizes for use with Universal Tooling
http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf
________________________
Loading Forces Table
http://pyrobin.com/files/force%20needed%20to%20achieve%
20loading%20...
_________________________
Advantages and unique effects of each type of motor made with the
UT
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?
tid=11672&posts=1&...
_______________________
Hybrid #2 fuel used in an endburner configuration made with
endburner tooling:
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?
tid=11674&posts=1&...
Edited by ned 4/11/2010 10:25 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the
human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of
circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Lee C. Bussy
Posted 4/11/2010 7:28 PM (#105765 - in reply to #105705)
Subject: RE: Universal Rocket Tooling, Motor Specifications, Thread Index
Offline
Charts supporting the above pages, including pressing force and
increment sizing:
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11682
Location: Kansas
City, MO
----Lee C. Bussy
How to include pictures in posts:
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Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 8:51 AM (#105191)
Subject: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
OK, let's start from scratch for developing some spec's for using Universal Tooling for all cored
motors, designed by Steve LaDuke.
Steve's instructions list four basic fuels, and I'd imagine this list will be expanded as Colored
Tailed Rockets and Nozzleless Rockets and other whistle fuels get included:
Expert
Posts: 6873
Black Powder #1
75 KNO3
15 airfloat charcoal
10 80-mesh charcoal
15 36-40-mesh charcoal
10 sulfur
5 dextrin
+water/alcohol
Whistle Mix #2
76 potassium perchlorate
23 sodium salicylate
1 red iron oxide
2.5 vaseline
lacquer thinner
Whistle Mix #3
64 potassium perchlorate
32 sodium benzoate
1 red iron oxide
5 vaseline
lacquer thinner
Strobe Mix #4
60 ammonium perchlorate
25 magnalium 50/50 -200 mesh
15 barium sulfate
5 potassium dichromate
NC lacquer and acetone, about 10% mix of the NC lacquer
Maybe the first questions would be "what variations on these fuels are in common use?"
I personally use mineral oil instead of vaseline in the whistle and strobe fuels, mixed in Coleman
Fuel, and eliminating the NC lacquer in the strobe.
What mix of alcohol/water is used to wet and rice the BP fuel?
What other whistle fuels have been shown to work with the UT (Universal Tooling)?
How can colored tailed rockets be made with the UT?
How can nozzleless motors be made with the UT?
Steve specs nozzles in only the Hybrid Motors, and the BP motors.
Are nozzles used in colored tailed rockets?
In a personal note, Steve specs pressed-increment heights of 2/3 tube ID.
The figures I put in the other thread were based on a height of 2/3 tube ID.
I'm working on formatting that info into a chart which can be included in one of these posts, and
I'll post it all in this thread once I get that accomplished.
How high on the spindle should the hot Whistle (#2 fuel) be pressed in a Strobe or LWS motor,
before switching to the other fuel.
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That's probably enough for now.
Once we nail down some of these preliminaries, we can move to some other specs.
And, yep, Dave, eventually, with Steve's guidance and consent, we'll come up with a
comprehensive set of instructions for all the fuels, motor types, motor sizes, and guidance for
dialing the motors in..good for newbies and oldies alike..
ned
Edited by ned 4/7/2010 9:05 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
dapaki
Posted 4/7/2010 9:32 AM (#105197 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
WH00T! Dang, now I kind of feel bad for calling you a geezer
Expert
Posts: 1825
Location: Up Nort
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 9:33 AM (#105198 - in reply to #105197)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
WH00T! Dang, now I kind of feel bad for calling you a geezer
_____________________________
I'm searching for some way to have you 'blocked' from viewing this thread, Sonny....
Posts: 6873
nski
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
dapaki
Posted 4/7/2010 9:39 AM (#105200 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
LOL! I will try to behave... maybe.
Expert
Can you flesh this out a little more for me?
Expert
Posts: 1825
Location: Up Nort
"I personally use mineral oil instead of vaseline in the whistle and strobe fuels, mixed in Coleman
Fuel, and eliminating the NC lacquer in the strobe."
I believe that your SL instructions were a little different. I have been using just baby oil (I like
the smell) and Iron Oxide in my whistle but with a good buy on Barium Sulfate, I will be dabbling
in the black arts of strobe rockets and would like your thoughts on the finer details.
Dave
Danny Creagan
Posted 4/7/2010 9:53 AM (#105206 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
re: Colored Tail Motors using Universal Spindles
Steve's Universal spindle is a very nice compromise that lends itself to many more configurations
than even Steve says.
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Posts: 3822
Location: Middle
Earth
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One that I was testing at Vinton on the 27th was quite successful. It was a MgAl colored tailed
chuffer rocket pressed on a 'universal like' spindle. I was shooting both green and red. Since I
shoot these all the time, I never thought about recording any of the launches. However, they
were getting very respectable heights. Joel can confirm - we had a short discussion about how
high they were going for such simple motors. This was the first time I had used a universal
spindle with them so I didn't have any cool headers - just tested six to make sure they would
work.
A side effect of using the universal spindle is that it has a good taper so the darn MgAl, which
grabs more narrow spindles, releases its death grip sooner.
Here is the process:
1. Make red, green or yellow MgAl rocket fuel according to the Barr, Stoddard, Steinberg
formulas. Here is my web page about them if you don't have your notes handy:
http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rockets/strontiumrockets....
2. Using the universal spindle, make a 1 I.D. clay nozzle - I use oiled kitty litter.
3. Press one I.D. of 76/23/1 salicylate whistle mix (or 1.5 ID of benzoate mix).
4. Fill to the top of the spindle with the MgAl mix.
5. For delay, use no more than 1.5 I.D. of the MgAl mix. In fact, go less the first time - the MgAl
is slow burning and you will have a big lawn dart if you put too much delay on them.
6. Add a nice clay bulkhead - at least 1 I.D.
The whistle is necessary - the modest spindle doesn't have enough burn area to get the MgAl
comps up to speed unless you augment the ignition.
You could probably add a bit more whistle if you wanted a laser on takeoff (or added a larger
header) but the idea behind the MgAl motors is to lift with medium velocity and chuff a bit on the
way up. The above formula seemed to be about right - the motors were boosted right at first but
they were no where near the red line. The mix chuffed a few times and the motor got its head of
steam up and went for the clouds.
Edit: Safety warning - MgAl mix is really a modified colored flash so be very careful. If you get a
stuck spindle or ram - which is easy to do if you don't keep your tooling clean - cut the motor off
before you haul down on the sucker to twist it off.
Edited by Danny Creagan 4/7/2010 9:59 AM
----I believe: the liquid will make you short, the cake will make you tall, animals can talk, cats can
disappear, there is a Wonderland, I can slay a Jabberwock, and my one pound rocket will lift that
header.
Dan Creagan
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 9:56 AM (#105207 - in reply to #105200)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
I believe that your SL instructions were a little different. I have been using just baby oil (I like
the smell) and Iron Oxide in my whistle but with a good buy on Barium Sulfate, I will be dabbling
in the black arts of strobe rockets and would like your thoughts on the finer details.
Expert
Dave
_________________________________
Dave,
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in the SL newsletter articles:
#123 Making Whistles
#124 Whistle Rockets
#125 Strobe Rockets
I details my current methods of making whistle and strobe fuels with mineral oil and coleman
fuel. (I'd personally beware of "Baby Oil" which probably contains scents and/or other
adulterants, similar to rubbing alcohol..)
And remember that strobe fuel is HOT,,,,more powerful than whistle fuel,,,be careful when
playing with it.
And, Danny, a modified colored tailed rocket I won some competitions with in '06 used the
Stoddard fuel, and a shorter spindle like the UT one. I did find the typical instructions to use a
clay nozzle and the colored fuel, often resulted in a puny motor.
So, I eliminated the clay nozzle, pressed about 1.5 ID tall hot whistle fuel, and the rest of the
way with the colored fuel..sort of a LWS with colored fuel instead of instead of the slower whistle
fuel.. Whistle boosted colored tailed rockets.. worked very nicely for my purposes..
n
Edited by ned 4/7/2010 10:04 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 10:06 AM (#105209 - in reply to #105207)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
So, Steve,,,a few more questions:
What kind of charcoal do you use in your BP fuel?
Do you use a 9000 psi-on-the-comp loading pressure for all your fuels?
Expert
Posts: 6873
Have you made colored tailed rockets on the UT, and if so, how?
Wolter lists a "BP-Whistle Assist" motor that can be made with the tooling. Can you provide
details on this motor?
ned
Edited by ned 4/7/2010 10:09 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Douglas Knight
Posted 4/7/2010 10:14 AM (#105210 - in reply to #105200)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Ned,
I really like where your going with all of this thread and the increment one also. Since getting
drawn into the darkside at last years PGI convention this is the journey I've been sperimenting
down. Even though the journey in this hobby is as fun as the destination, any additional info is
helpful to make even more rewarding.
I personally am loading up to take off for the 2F and try my first strobe rockets. I was planning
on trying vaseline with laquer thinner plus the standard chems. Do you think I would be better
off just going with the mineral oil rather than vaseline?
Member
Posts: 32
And gee Dave I thought Ned was the elder statesman and Danny Creegan was the geezer
I'm just getting a little too wound up for 2F!
WOOHOO!
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----Doug
dapaki
Offline
Expert
Posts: 1825
Location: Up Nort
Posted 4/7/2010 10:33 AM (#105213 - in reply to #105210)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Douglas Knight - 4/7/2010 10:14 AM And gee Dave I thought Ned was the elder statesman and Danny
Creegan was the geezer
I'm just getting a little too wound up for 2F! WOOHOO!
I know, I know, but I gotta work with Danny at PGI, no need getting him all riled up at me and
then sitting on a bucket over on the far side of the track all week long...
"Release the Creagan!!"
Dave
Douglas Knight
Posted 4/7/2010 10:38 AM (#105215 - in reply to #105206)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Danny Creagan - 4/7/2010 10:53 AM
Member
re: Colored Tail Motors using Universal Spindles
Posts: 32
5. For delay, use no more than 1.5 I.D. of the MgAl mix. In fact, go less the first time - the MgAl is slow
burning and you will have a big lawn dart if you put too much delay on them.
Dan,
For the first time on one of these say cut the delay back to 3/4 I.D. then?
Oh, just kidding about that geezer thing, I've never seen you geezing.
----Doug
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 10:49 AM (#105216 - in reply to #105215)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Well,,,unfortunately when posting this table, which is included appropriately down in the body of
this post, a lot of other BS is showing up,,,which I can't seem to find a way to get rid of...
But the table includes the info from the other thread on "increment size", along with some
modified specs for BP increments, since the density of that pressed fuel is different than whistle
or strobe fuels.
ned
Expert
Posts: 6873
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Increment
Whistle/Strobe
Whistle/Strobe
BP Increment
BP Increment
Volume,
cu.in.
Increment Wt.
Increment Size
Weight
Size
½”
.07
2g/.05 oz
Heaping ¼ t
1.5g/.05 oz
Flat ½ t
5/8”
.13
4g/.15 oz
Heaping ½ t
3g/.1 oz
Heaping ½ t
¾”
.22
7g/.25 oz
Heaping t
5g/.2 oz
Round t
7/8”
.35
11g/.4 oz
Heaping ½ T
8g/.3 oz
Heaping ½ T
1”
.53
17g/.6 oz
Heaping T
13g/.45 oz
Heaping T
1.25”
1.03
32g/1.1 oz
Heaping 1/8 C
24g/.85 oz
Heaping 1/8
C+
1.5”
1.77
56g/2 oz
Round ¼ C
42g/1.5 oz
Flat 1/3 C
Tube Size
*Approximate starting values
Based on pressed increments =2/3 Tube ID tall
Based on pressed fuel densities:
Whistle/Strobe = 30 grams/cubic inch
BP fuel = 22 grams/cubic inch
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Edited by ned 4/7/2010 10:55 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 11:05 AM (#105219 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Ned:
I can answer all of those questions right here.
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1118
Water-alcohol mix added to rice BP-- no more that 10% alcohol
Colored tailed rocket-- no nozzle--4 increments of #2 whistle, finish rocket with the colored fuel
to about 1 inch above the spindle. You could go 1/2 inch with the original color, then change the
colored fuel to something else to about 1 inch total above the spindle. No clay plug above the
colored fuel.
Nozzless rocket---- press the entire rocket with the #1 BP mixed with #2 whistle mix. A ratio of
50% whistle and 50% BP--- by weight. Press the entire rocket with one increment above the
spindle with this mix, then change to a different fuel. This fuel can be a colored mix, maybe just
more straight whistle to give a whistling effect, maybe some willow tailed fuel, anything your
imagination can muster. Just be careful of how far you go above the spindle because your rocket
will be coasting at this point. Consideration of the heading is important. The heavier the payload,
less altitude.
Variations in fuel------ making strobe mix, I would now suggest using vasoline and lacquer
thinner. Some guys use mineral oil. Whatever works best for you. I find that mixing 2 parts of
vasoline to every 100 grams of strobe mix works for me. and it was recently discovered that
adding more that 2 parst increases the strobe frenquency. I have not tried that yet.
What other whistle fuels work with this tooling?
So far, the individual rockets that can be made have to be used exactly the way they were
intended that was listed on the sheet. I've covered every type of rocket that can possibly be
made with the tooling. Maybe I don't quite understand the question as it was stated.
How high should the hot whistle be pressed in strobe and LWS before switching to the other fuel?
4 increments of #2 whistle------ the rest should be strobe to about 3/16 above the spindle, then
finish the rocket with 3 smaller increments of whistle.
On the LWS rocket, 4 increments of #2 hot whislte, then finish the rocket with the slower #3
benzoate whistle to about 2 inches above the spindle. This rocket is not designed to lift heavy
payloads. A salute heading is plenty of payload. A salute heading is made by wrapping at least 5
turns of 90 lb. gummed paper tape, 3 inches wide, around the rocket tube itself to form a tube.
An endplug is glued into one end. These 3 inch wide tubes can be cut in half to make 2 tubes is
so desired. Then fill this tube with whatever you desire, apply some glue on the inside edge of
the tube and slide it ovet the top of the finished rocket If you so insist on pressing in a clay plug
over the fuel in the rocket, then you will have to drill a hole through this plug to provide a
passfire hole, which should be plugged with some whistle #2 to give a good jet of fire when the
rocket burns to this point.
If either rocket catos on ignition, there's probably two things that can probably help.
#1---- make sure the loading pressure is at least 7500 psi. I use 9000 on all the rockets, and I
use nothing but New England, high quality tubes.
#2---- reduce the 4 increments of the hot #2 fuel to 3 increments and see what happens. This
will most likely prevent the rocket from catoing. I can think of no other possibility that would
cause a cato if your increment size is correct. There would be definately something else that you
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screwed up in the process.
One other rocket that was not mentioned be Ned is the whislte assist-BP rocket.
Here, you start out the same way as the other nozzless rockets are made.
4 increments of #2 hot whistle
Then finishe the rocket to at least 1 inch above the spindle with your BP fuel. For the BP fuel to
be used in these rockets, I would suggest a fuel, such as the #1 on the sheet. Or, probably a
slower burning BP with a larger amount of coarse charcoal added into the mix to increase the
charcoal tail. It doesn't really matter to much on how fast this BP burns, because the whistle fuel
in this rocket is what gives this rocket it's kick off the launch pad. Once the whistle fuel is burned
up and gone, which takes about 1/2 second, what's left is the unburned core of the BP still
burning. So if you can add some extra, coarse and intermediate size charcoal, this would really
make a nice tail. This rocket will take a medium size payload. It is possible to add an extra
increment of #2 whistle to give it a more powerful jump on takeoff, but 4 increments seems
plenty already.
Ned, I've been sitting here for an hour writing. Maybe I will write enough that you won't have to
write anything, just put it altogether. It's not very often I feel like sitting that long in one spot
and writing something. I think you've found out, and I suspect this is the way you will get all this
information out of me that you need to put something together on the Hybrid tooling.
You're pretty sneaky.
One more thing I'd like to add to all of this, 1 increment should take up 1/2 of the diamater of
the tube. Yo guys that make rockets will slap your forehead and say, here we go again about
increment size. I do know definately that increment size can make or break a good rocket. And
with these high energy fuels that are being used to make rockets, I think it would be best to stay
on the safe side and keep the increment size to what I find works best for me. If your rockets
work for you when using a 15 gram increment where I use a 7 gram increment, all I can say is
you will get done faster than I will. I gotten rockets to work using larger increments in the past
but have slowly realized that I get fewer rockets that cato when I use smaller increments, and
this is what I find that works best for me. I've only been making them for 48 years now, and I
have all this accumulated knowdge behind me. It took me 48 years to reveal this to my friends.
Do whatever you want with this information.
SLD
It's now been over an hour and a half, or closer to 2 hours.
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 11:06 AM (#105220 - in reply to #105210)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
I personally am loading up to take off for the 2F and try my first strobe rockets. I was planning
on trying vaseline with laquer thinner plus the standard chems. Do you think I would be better
off just going with the mineral oil rather than vaseline?
_________________________________
Expert
Posts: 6873
I've used both Vaseline and the oil, Doug,,and I think either one will work fine.
I like the oil because it doesn't have to be melted before introducing the Coleman Fuel,
but others have developed creative ways to mix these fuels, so there are plenty of options.
Have fun at the 2F, and give us a full report when you're back.
Are you settled in GA now?
nski
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 11:09 AM (#105221 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
After reading over my post, it looks like my grammar is starting to slip a little.
SLD
Elite Veteran
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Posts: 1118
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 11:15 AM (#105222 - in reply to #105221)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
I think there's a Huge amount of good info in that long post, Steve.
Thanks.
Expert
Posts: 6873
One major point of clarification, though.
In a personal note, you said your increments are 1/2 tube ID tall.
Then in the 'increment size' thread you posted:
"To make something simple, one increment, when pressed into a rocket, will take up 2/3rd the
diamater of the rocket."
Then, in that last long post, you're back to pressed increments that are 1/2 tube ID tall.
I'm assuming that, depending on whether the increment is around the spindle, where the same
weight will press up taller, or above the spindle, where the same weight will press up shorter,
and also depending on whether it's BP fuel or Whistle/Strobe fuel, the increments end up being
between 1/2 and 2/3 Tube ID tall.
Would that be an accurate statement, as a generalization?
You probably don't mic the height of your increments, I'm guesssing, so I'd imagine the above
info is a 'general, approximate rule of thumb'...
The place this becomes important is when 'number of increments' is used to spec how high on
the spindle one fuel goes, before switching to a different fuel. Could this height be expressed as
a fraction of the spindle height instead...like "press X fuel up for half the spindle, then switch to
the other fuel...for example?
Also, are you pressing all fuel increments to 9000 psi on the comp loading pressure?
Thanks a bunch,
this'll all end up very useful.
ned
Edited by ned 4/7/2010 11:37 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Lee C. Bussy
Posted 4/7/2010 11:38 AM (#105223 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
One point that might make sense to people re: increment sizes: If the increment is too large,
the lower part of the increment compacts more slowly than the top. The top part of the
increment "grabs" the tube, and now you are pressing the tube and the lower part of your
increment. This is where the tube starts "shrinking" and wrinkling on the inside.
Location: Kansas
City, MO
----Lee C. Bussy
How to include pictures in posts:
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ned
Posted 4/7/2010 11:55 AM (#105224 - in reply to #105223)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
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Expert
Posts: 6873
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Yeah, Lee,,,
and the bottom half of a large increment simply does not get as solidly consolidated as the top
half.
I like Steve's 1/2 to 2/3 tube ID increment height recommendation.
One note on the tooling I order.
I like to use clay bulkheads, about 1/2 to 1 tube ID tall.
I also like to have an empty space of about 2 tube ID's tall in the tube above that bulkhead.
That empty space is great for supporting the rammers as the final increments are being pressed.
It can be filled with Vitamin F for a nice lil heading pop.
If that empty space is not desired in the final motor, a shorter motor tube can be cut, and a
small filler/extender tube inserted above it in the tube support as the motor is being pressed.
The filler tube supports the drifts, once again, as the final increments are being pressed.
So I order my tooling drifts and supports a bit longer than standard to allow all of that space in a
motor.
n
Edited by ned 4/7/2010 12:03 PM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
dapaki
Posted 4/7/2010 12:25 PM (#105227 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Also, along with this measurement:'
Expert
"Colored tailed rocket-- no nozzle--4 increments of #2 whistle, finish rocket with the colored fuel
to about 1 inch above the spindle. You could go 1/2 inch with the original color, then change the
colored fuel to something else to about 1 inch total above the spindle. No clay plug above the
colored fuel."
Posts: 1825
Location: Up Nort
What pound rocket is this based on? I am working on tooling for my new 1/2" tubes and 1" is a
whole lot of delay.
Dave
Dan Thames
Posted 4/7/2010 12:30 PM (#105228 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Steve,
Expert
48 years? I thought it was twenty something years, or is the twenty something just
whistles/strobes.
Posts: 1882
Location: Arkansas
It may have been from one of your videos but from the very beginning the importances of small
increments was something that I picked up on. This is one place where I do listen
A really hot
motor better not have somewhat larger increments or I am sure it will pop.
The whistle assist BP is something I have been making on my thinner spindles. Also, with my
beginnings in the nozzleless BP rockets, this seems sort of normal to me. The whistle assist BP
with some strong BP fuel are my greatest weight lifters.
Dan T.
pyropep
Posted 4/7/2010 12:41 PM (#105229 - in reply to #105222)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Thanks for the wealth of info here guys, everything one needs all in the same place is great!!!
This is perfect for guys new to rockets like myself.
Steve you have been making rockets for 48 years?
WOW you must of started out when you were 8 or 10 years old?
Starting out a 47 there's now way i'll ever get that many years of having fun building rockets.
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1094
Location: Sunny
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Coast
Thanks again
Pep
(Short for Pepper Martin the nickname that I was givin back in School after the wrestler.)
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 1:10 PM (#105233 - in reply to #105222)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1118
I'm assuming that, depending on whether the increment is around the spindle, where the same
weight will press up taller, or above the spindle, where the same weight will press up shorter,
and also depending on whether it's BP fuel or Whistle/Strobe fuel, the increments end up being
between 1/2 and 2/3 Tube ID tall.
Would that be an accurate statement, as a generalization?
You probably don't mic the height of your increments, I'm guesssing, so I'd imagine the above
info is a 'general, approximate rule of thumb'
Ned:
The total amount of room the fuel takes up when pressed around the largest part of the spindle
is probably closer to around 2/3rd's the diamater. As the fuel goes up the spindle, the increment
takes up less space. And of course, if I don't change the force on this first increment, the loading
pressure goes up to around 12,000 psi. The second increment drops slightly and the following 2
increments will succedingly drop the loading pressure. So I would say that your assumption is
correct. I like to use the full calculated pressure on my guage when pressing rockets right from
the start because I know one guy that had problems making his strobe rockets fly until he
started doing this also. So you could probably say that the increment may very in height,
depending on where it's being pressed, but I never change the amount of the increment. So it
would be easy to determine that column of whistle in each rocket that is being pressed by taking
2/3rds or 1/2 the diamater of that particular rocket and multiplying it by 4. That's how much
whsitle fuel should be used before changing to the next fuel. And with every guy that makes
whistle, this could vary probably 1/2 inch in either direction, depending on his whistle fuel and
the power that it developes. So if one guy is using cheap Chinese perc and the other is using
Swedish, that can throw the whole thing out of order. And that's where a guy has to learn to
"Tweak' his fuel and procedure.
SLD
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 1:19 PM (#105236 - in reply to #105233)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Cool, Steve,
that's pretty much what I was assuming.
Expert
Posts: 6873
Anyone who gains some rocketeering experience will admit that it all comes down to some
tweaking, dialing-in, etc, depending on the power of the individual fuels, the size of the motors,
etc. (smaller ID motors will accept hotter fuels than will larger ID motors)
So, with solid fuel increments, you're pressing at a calculated 9000 psi on the comp, and with the
increments around the spindle, that actual pressure is more because the surface area is less.
So, with your stock UT design,
how long is the spindle in:
-increments (1/2 tube ID)
-Tube ID's
?
ned
Edited by ned 4/7/2010 1:21 PM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
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one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 1:20 PM (#105237 - in reply to #105227)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
dapaki - 4/7/2010 1:25 PM
Elite Veteran
Also, along with this measurement:'
Posts: 1118
"Colored tailed rocket-- no nozzle--4 increments of #2 whistle, finish rocket with the colored fuel to about 1
inch above the spindle. You could go 1/2 inch with the original color, then change the colored fuel to something
else to about 1 inch total above the spindle. No clay plug above the colored fuel."
What pound rocket is this based on? I am working on tooling for my new 1/2" tubes and 1" is a whole lot of
delay.
Dave
Dap:
Cut it down to 3/4" of delay for a 1/2 incher, or even down to 1/2 and see what happens. If it
blows through, then you know you need more bulkhead. Then you need some clay pressed in
with a passfire hole.
SLD
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 1:31 PM (#105239 - in reply to #105237)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Steve,
I want to focus on one motor at a time, developing the spec's for it.
Starting with the BP motors, I have this formula in my handout from you:
Expert
Posts: 6873
75 KNO3
15 airfloat charcoal
10 80-mesh charcoal
15 36-40-mesh charcoal
10 sulfur
5 dextrin
Wet with water/alcohol 90/10
The formula below, which is slightly different (containing 5 less parts of 80-mesh charcoal), is in
the:
Formulae
Shared
Rocket
All
section
Black Powder Fueled Rocket:
Name: Steve Laduke BP #1
Source: Steve LaDuke
Convert to Percent Convert to Meal
Chemical Name: Parts: Weigh:
Potassium Nitrate 75
Charcoal Airfloat 15
Charcoal, 40 mesh 15
Sulfur 10
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Charcoal, 80 mesh 5
Dextrin 5
Tare: Total: 125
( click to left of chemical names for information on that substance )
NOTES:
Rice this mixture with Water and Alcohol
Steve, do you use either or both of these formulas, and is one of them the one you actually
spec?
ned
Edited by ned 4/7/2010 1:32 PM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 1:33 PM (#105240 - in reply to #105236)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
ned - 4/7/2010 2:19 PM
Elite Veteran
Cool, Steve,
that's pretty much what I was assuming.
Posts: 1118
Anyone who gains some rocketeering experience will admit that it all comes down to some tweaking, dialing-in,
etc, depending on the power of the individual fuels, the size of the motors, etc. (smaller ID motors will accept
hotter fuels than will larger ID motors)
So, with solid fuel increments, you're pressing at a calculated 9000 psi on the comp, and with the increments
around the spindle, that actual pressure is more because the surface area is less.
So, with your stock UT design,
how long is the spindle in:
-increments (1/2 tube ID)
-Tube ID's
?
ned
For a 1/2 inch diamater rocket, I use a slightly rounded 1/2 teaspoon.
I don't quite understand your question. Reword it please.
SLD
steve kursinsky
Posted 4/7/2010 1:34 PM (#105241 - in reply to #105210)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Have fun at 2 F Doug. And remember, just a little more delay. No pyro fun for me this weekend
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some poor bastard is turning 40 and the wife is forcing me to go to the party.
----Steve Kursinsky
Smile, everyone will wonder what your up too.
Expert
Posts: 1530
Location: Sandusky
Mi
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 1:35 PM (#105242 - in reply to #105229)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
WOW you must of started out when you were 8 or 10 years old?
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1118
Pep, As far as I can remember, I pounded my first rocket when I was 13. I'm now 61 and
counting.
SLD
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 1:40 PM (#105243 - in reply to #105240)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
For a 1/2 inch diamater rocket, I use a slightly rounded 1/2 teaspoon.
I don't quite understand your question. Reword it please.
SLD
Probably a few questions left, Steve.
Expert
Posts: 6873
Do you press increments figured on 9000 psi on the comp on a solid fuel increment.
For example, with a 3/4" ID motor, with a cross-section area of .44 square inches, do you press
with 4000 pounds of force? (4000 pounds/.44 square inches = 9000 psi, approx.)?
And when you are making the tooling in the different motor sizes, how long is a spindle,
expressed in motor ID's?
I'm imagining you have the proportions of a spindle worked out in proportion to the motor ID.
For example, with a 3/4" motor ID, how long is a spindle? From that we can calculate how many
tube ID's long that is. That can then be expressed in fuel increments, with one fuel increment
being 1/2 tube ID. Then we'd know about how far up on a spindle to press fuel A before
switching to fuel B, approximately.
n
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 1:46 PM (#105244 - in reply to #105200)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Dap"
When making whistle fuel using mineral oil, you loose about 12% of the power as when using
vasoline. Anyone care to develope a test to say I'm wrong. I got this information from someone
else, but he was testing rockets made with the same tooling and chemicals and the only
difference was mineral oil verses vasoline. With rockets made with mineral oil, there was a 12%
drop in thrust as compared to vasoline. So that's why I say this. I can give you his name if he
would allow it.
Baby oil is a new one to me. Some guys follow a recepe and change one of the main ingrediance
and expect the same results? That's like where it calls for 1 cup of butter in a pastry recepe and
you use 1 cup of lard and expect it to work? Just something for thought.
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1118
SLD
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steve kursinsky
Posted 4/7/2010 1:47 PM (#105245 - in reply to #105224)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
I wish I would have know about ordering a little extra length as this is a problem on some of my
tooling. Man you get to the top and there is just no support or room left. In stead of adding a
salute or heading I like to just hand compress loose whistle in the last inch or so of tube as the
salute. blows the tube off nicely and opens the tube up to catch more wind drag on the way
down.
----Steve Kursinsky
Smile, everyone will wonder what your up too.
Expert
Posts: 1530
Location: Sandusky
Mi
dapaki
Posted 4/7/2010 2:11 PM (#105246 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Hmmm,
I really liked the baby oil too! OK Steve, I will do it your way, I don't like it but I will try it.
Expert
Posts: 1825
Dave
Location: Up Nort
Lee C. Bussy
Posted 4/7/2010 2:26 PM (#105248 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
So ... and maybe this needs to be in another thread ... is there a solvent which actually works on
vaseline? Because everything I've used won't actually dissolve the vaseline. If there was one we
could use that and avoid the heat ... issue solved.
Location: Kansas
City, MO
----Lee C. Bussy
How to include pictures in posts:
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 2:51 PM (#105249 - in reply to #105248)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Lee, in his original Whistle Fuel making article, Dan McMuray says,
" Unlike acetone or toluene, naphtha is an excellent vaseline solvent...."
So, I'm wondering what would happen if the weighed dose of Vaseline was left in a jar of
naphtha to dissolve, with maybe some shaking now and then.
The melting of the vaseline might be avoided then.
ned
Expert
Posts: 6873
Edited by ned 4/7/2010 2:52 PM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
dapaki
Posted 4/7/2010 2:54 PM (#105250 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
"It is soluble in dichloromethane, chloroform, benzene, diethyl ether, carbon disulfide and oil of
turpentine.
-WP-
Expert
Posts: 1825
Dave
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Location: Up Nort
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 3:43 PM (#105253 - in reply to #105243)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
ned - 4/7/2010 2:40 PM
Elite Veteran
For a 1/2 inch diamater rocket, I use a slightly rounded 1/2 teaspoon.
I don't quite understand your question. Reword it please.
SLD
Posts: 1118
Probably a few questions left, Steve.
Do you press increments figured on 9000 psi on the comp on a solid fuel increment.
For example, with a 3/4" ID motor, with a cross-section area of .44 square inches, do you press with 4000
pounds of force? (4000 pounds/.44 square inches = 9000 psi, approx.)?
And when you are making the tooling in the different motor sizes, how long is a spindle, expressed in motor
ID's?
I'm imagining you have the proportions of a spindle worked out in proportion to the motor ID.
For example, with a 3/4" motor ID, how long is a spindle? From that we can calculate how many tube ID's long
that is. That can then be expressed in fuel increments, with one fuel increment being 1/2 tube ID. Then we'd
know about how far up on a spindle to press fuel A before switching to fuel B, approximately.
n
Damn, Ned, you are making this whole thing complicated to me.
I take the area of the tube and calculate the loading pressure of 9000 psi. On my hydraulic
guage on my press, for a 1/2 inch ID tube that has .196 sq. in., I press every increment to that
calculated pressure to 360 PSI on my guage. I round that off to 400 psi on my guage, so the
loading pressure is much higher on those first few increments.
If you know the dimensions of one spindle, length and diamater at the bottom, you can easily
calculate any length and diamater of Hybrid spindle size. I like to use the cross multiplication
method of calculating these dimensions. 3/4" diamater is to 4.2 in. long over 1" diamater is to X.
When you cross multiply and divide the opposite side of X, you get the length of that spindle
which is 5.6 inchs long for the 1" ID rocket spindle. You do the same for the base diamater of the
spindle.
I really don't understand what could be easier that saying 4 increment of whistle first, then finish
the rocket with the B fuel.
I will give you the amont of each increment in weight as I have just finished weighing each
increment for each different size rocket that I make using whistle fuel.
1/2 inch rocket----3.5 grams----- heaping 1/4 teaspoon-------------2.5 gms. BP
5/8 " " ----4.5 " ----- slightly rounded 1/2 teaspoon
3/4 " " ----6.5 " ----- slightly rounded teaspoon ------- 4 gms.
7/8 " " ----8.5 " ----- here I use a special spoon
1 " " ----10.5 " ----- same spoon, only heaping
There you have the increment sizes I use for all these different size rockets when measuring
whistle fuel in weight. Of course, I don't weigh these increments when I pressing. And as you can
see, I weighed out the same increment of BP and you can see the difference in density. BP
weighs a lot less that whistle fuel. So for all these rockets that require 4 increments of whistle
first, use these weights and you can't go wrong. And since this is the most critical factor whethet
or not the rocket might cato when making these rockets, it is the most important step when
pressing them. If your increments get to big in this step, catos wil prevail. I might also add that
all of these weight increments may be increased to around 2-2.5 grams without any problems
because of the brissance of the whistle fuel you are using. I have noticed the difference in
performance of these rockets when I used shitty Chinese perc to make the whistle fuel. You
could have probably added 3-4 grams of whistle to each increment and not have a cato,
according to the performance of those rockets. But for starters, stick to the smaller increments
and see how they perform. What I should have is a recorded flight of my most energetic rockets
in each catagory to show as an example to anyone how they fly when they are tweaked to
perfection. This would give an idea to anyone who is trying to build them, an example of exactly
how they should fly. Then one could work towards tweaking his own rockets to compared with
mine, or Dan Thames. Dan should get a kick out of that statement.
SLD
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 3:59 PM (#105254 - in reply to #105209)
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Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
What kind of charcoal do you use in your BP fuel? From Ned
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1118
In the #1 BP recipe, I use commercialy made 36-40 mesh and the ballmilled is my own charcoal.
I like to use willow wood for this but any type of wood charcoal will work.
SLD
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 4:13 PM (#105255 - in reply to #105228)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Steve,
Elite Veteran
48 years? I thought it was twenty something years, or is the twenty something just
whistles/strobes.
I started making whistle and strobe rockets back in 1991, the first convention I went to. I know I
made more rockets in those 19 years that I made since I started making them back in 1962. I
remember well those peened over brass rammers and ballpeen hammer I used.
SLD
Posts: 1118
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 4:22 PM (#105257 - in reply to #105253)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
That's great info, Steve..
A lot of what I needed.
Did you have a chance to look at the two BP #1 formulas I listed in a post above here?
Which one is the one you are using nowadays?
Expert
Posts: 6873
Thanks,
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
mike swisher
Posted 4/7/2010 4:23 PM (#105258 - in reply to #105248)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
The listed solvents for petrolatum all have drawbacks; dichloromethane, chloroform, benzene,
ether, carbon disulphide, and turpentine. The chlorinated hydrocarbons, benzene, and carbon
disulphide are all toxic, ether is highly volatile and has a low flash point, and turpentine is not
going to evaporate completely from the composition. Of the choices, ether is probably the best of
a bad lot.
Expert
Posts: 1621
Lee C. Bussy - 4/7/2010 3:26 PM
So ... and maybe this needs to be in another thread ... is there a solvent which actually works on vaseline?
Because everything I've used won't actually dissolve the vaseline. If there was one we could use that and
avoid the heat ... issue solved.
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 4:38 PM (#105260 - in reply to #105239)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
ned - 4/7/2010 2:31 PM
Elite Veteran
Steve,
I want to focus on one motor at a time, developing the spec's for it.
Starting with the BP motors, I have this formula in my handout from you:
Posts: 1118
75 KNO3
15 airfloat charcoal
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10 80-mesh charcoal
15 36-40-mesh charcoal
10 sulfur
5 dextrin
Wet with water/alcohol 90/10
The formula below, which is slightly different (containing 5 less parts of 80-mesh charcoal), is in the:
Formulae
Shared
Rocket
All
section
Black Powder Fueled Rocket:
Name: Steve Laduke BP #1
Source: Steve LaDuke
Convert to Percent Convert to Meal
Chemical Name: Parts: Weigh:
Potassium Nitrate 75
Charcoal Airfloat 15
Charcoal, 40 mesh 15
Sulfur 10
Charcoal, 80 mesh 5
Dextrin 5
Tare: Total: 125
( click to left of chemical names for information on that substance )
NOTES:
Rice this mixture with Water and Alcohol
Steve, do you use either or both of these formulas, and is one of them the one you actually spec?
ned
Ned:
I gave both of those formulas to use for the BP. The one with the extra 80 mesh gave more tail when mixed
with the whistle when making the #2 hybrid for endburners, and this one used a little more whistle in the
combined mix to give a little more umph to the fuel. So either one can be used.
As you can see, when converted to a percentage, it's really not a very hot fuel by itself with only 60% oxidiser
and 28 % charcoal. But it does add tail in an endburn rocket, where in the #1 hybrid fuel, where the fuel is 7623-1-3 whistle with additional 10 parts of ballmilled charcoal, this gives no tail at all, just a little sprig of light
behind it. And when used in the actual hybrid rocket itself, you get a tail right from the start.
And by the way, when using #2 hybrid fuel in a hybrid rocket, one can add around 30% whistle to this BP
recipe and press the rocket all the way up to one increment above the spindle, and then add whatever type of
tail you want on the rocket in the rest of the bulkhead. And this will require careful tweaking as to just how
much whistle can be added to the BP. This will all depend on the brissince of the whistle fuel that is added.
SLD
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 4:45 PM (#105261 - in reply to #105257)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Did you have a chance to look at the two BP #1 formulas I listed in a post above here?
Which one is the one you are using nowadays?
Elite Veteran
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Posts: 1118
Thanks,
ned
The one I use is the one that has only two mesh sizes in the mix; the ballmilled and 36-40 mesh
charcoals. I didn't have any 80 mesh for quite awhile but now I have some so I just might use it
again.
SLD
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 4:52 PM (#105263 - in reply to #105261)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Oh, Man,,,a third formula...
Steve, could you please post the BP formula you are now recommending for use with the UT, so
we know where to start with the simplest model, the BP/charcoal motor.
Thanks,
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Expert
Posts: 6873
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 4:54 PM (#105264 - in reply to #105258)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
mike swisher - 4/7/2010 5:23 PM
Elite Veteran
The listed solvents for petrolatum all have drawbacks; dichloromethane, chloroform, benzene, ether, carbon
disulphide, and turpentine. The chlorinated hydrocarbons, benzene, and carbon disulphide are all toxic, ether is
highly volatile and has a low flash point, and turpentine is not going to evaporate completely from the
composition. Of the choices, ether is probably the best of a bad lot.
Posts: 1118
Lee C. Bussy - 4/7/2010 3:26 PM
So ... and maybe this needs to be in another thread ... is there a solvent which actually works on
vaseline? Because everything I've used won't actually dissolve the vaseline. If there was one we could
use that and avoid the heat ... issue solved.
So I guess Lee, it's either use mineral oil and sacrifice some power in your whistle or learn to live
with melting the vasoline and using lacquer thinner. What the heck, it only takes me about an
extra 1-1/2 minute to melt the vasoline for a 1 kilo batch of whistle fuel. I just wouldn't think of
any other way to make it. It's just a part of the procedure in my opinion. No big deal.
And thanks, Mike. I now have a reason to pick on Lee.
Danny Creagan
Offline
Posted 4/7/2010 4:56 PM (#105265 - in reply to #105215)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Douglas Knight - 4/7/2010 10:38 AM
Dan,
For the first time on one of these say cut the delay back to 3/4 I.D. then?
Expert
Yes. Be sure to use a clay bulkhead with them. 3/4 I.D. isn't enough to hold back the noise.
Posts: 3822
Geezer? That would be LaDuke. He and Ned took horseback riding lessons together when they
were young. Back then, the horses had clove feet.
Location: Middle
Earth
----I believe: the liquid will make you short, the cake will make you tall, animals can talk, cats can
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4/12/2010
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Page 21 of 35
disappear, there is a Wonderland, I can slay a Jabberwock, and my one pound rocket will lift that
header.
Dan Creagan
Lee C. Bussy
Posted 4/7/2010 4:57 PM (#105266 - in reply to #105264)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Glad I could give you something to do besides watch the grass grow Steve.
I make it with Vaseline, and will continue to do so, but I have made it with mineral oil when
working away from a heat source. Having a bottle of "Vaseline and solvent" would be handy but
it's not a game-stopper.
Location: Kansas
City, MO
----Lee C. Bussy
How to include pictures in posts:
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704
Lee C. Bussy
Offline
Posted 4/7/2010 4:58 PM (#105267 - in reply to #105265)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Danny Creagan - 4/7/2010 4:56 PM Geezer? That would be LaDuke. He and Ned took horseback riding lessons
together when they were young. Back then, the horses had clove feet.
I thought those cave etchings were of LaDuke and Moses? Learn something every day.
Location: Kansas
City, MO
----Lee C. Bussy
How to include pictures in posts:
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704
steve laduke
Posted 4/7/2010 4:59 PM (#105268 - in reply to #105263)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
ned - 4/7/2010 5:52 PM
Elite Veteran
Oh, Man,,,a third formula...
Steve, could you please post the BP formula you are now recommending for use with the UT, so we know
where to start with the simplest model, the BP/charcoal motor.
Thanks,
ned
Posts: 1118
Ned! Why didn't you say what rocket you were building? I use the formula 70-20-10-5 bp and
use airfloat charcoal in the straight BP rocket. Those other formulas are just to weak to make a
good rocket. One guy even told me he uses straight 75-15-10-5 BP and they still don't cato. All
the more power to him. Isn't that 70-20-10 formula on that sheet somewhere?
SLD
steve kursinsky
Posted 4/7/2010 5:19 PM (#105271 - in reply to #105227)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Dave I might not be correct on this but I bet I will be corrected if I am wrong. One inch in a half
inch tube is going to have the same burn rate as one inch in a one inch tube so the timing would
be the same I do think a smaller rocket if not made to optimized performance is going to bounce
a little faster than a larger rocket but again I can stand to be corrected by much more
experienced people than me.
Now how the hell did that happen I hit reply to Davids right below this and it showed up on top?
This is just exactly how the whole damn week has been going back wards and upside down.
Expert
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Posts: 1530
Location: Sandusky
Mi
pyropep
Page 22 of 35
Edited by steve kursinsky 4/7/2010 5:24 PM
----Steve Kursinsky
Smile, everyone will wonder what your up too.
Posted 4/7/2010 5:30 PM (#105272 - in reply to #105248)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Lee C. Bussy - 4/7/2010 12:26 PM
Elite Veteran
So ... and maybe this needs to be in another thread ... is there a solvent which actually works on vaseline?
Because everything I've used won't actually dissolve the vaseline. If there was one we could use that and
avoid the heat ... issue solved.
Posts: 1094
Location: Sunny
Coast
Lee
Thats what microwave ovens are for I use a pyrex pudding cup and heat it in the microwave,
then go outside and add your solvent of choice and your done.
Pep
Dan Thames
Posted 4/7/2010 5:35 PM (#105273 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
I have the base off of one of those little coffee makers. I cut the top part off. I set my food can
with wax or Vaseline on the heat and melt it. Then I add my solvent, mix it up, and go to town.
If the solvent is cold, the Vaseline will be a little cloudy. Put it back on the heat for 5 minutes if
that bothers you.
Expert
Posts: 1882
Location: Arkansas
Dan T.
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 5:48 PM (#105274 - in reply to #105268)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
ned - 4/7/2010 5:52 PM
Expert
Oh, Man,,,a third formula...
Steve, could you please post the BP formula you are now recommending for use with the UT, so
we know where to start with the simplest model, the BP/charcoal motor.
Thanks,
ned
Posts: 6873
Ned! Why didn't you say what rocket you were building? I use the formula 70-20-10-5 bp and
use airfloat charcoal in the straight BP rocket. Those other formulas are just to weak to make a
good rocket. One guy even told me he uses straight 75-15-10-5 BP and they still don't cato. All
the more power to him. Isn't that 70-20-10 formula on that sheet somewhere?
SLD
_____________________________________
I think I wish we were in the same room, sittin' around a table,,chatting, Steve.
With all these posts, I think we're passing each other at times.
I mentioned in a post above that I wanted to focus on the BP motor for now.
The only BP fuel formula I have from you is the one that is BP #1, that I listed in my first post in
this whole thread.
75 KNO3
15 airfloat
10 80-mesh
15 36-40 mesh
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Page 23 of 35
10 sulfur
5 dextrin
Your instructions say to use this #1 fuel to one increment above the spindle, and then switch to a
slower delay fuel such as willow-star-comp for another 2-3 increments.
So, you are saying that, really, for the BP rocket, you'd spec:
70 KNO3
20 airfloat
10 sulfur
5 dextrin
Use this in the same way, up one increment above the spindle, then switch to the willow-star
comp for 2-3 increments?
How do you granulate your fuel? How wet do you get it? What size screen do you granulate it
through?
If we can get these BP motor specs nailed down, that'd be a great start.
Thanks,
nski
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Dan Thames
Posted 4/7/2010 5:51 PM (#105275 - in reply to #105191)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Steve K.
Expert
I did some precise whistle fuel timings in 1lb size, that I could not dupicate in 6lb size. I think
that in the 6lb my tube length was longer. It appeared that in longer tubes, the burn rate was
different. I mean the delay flame front in one 6lb motor was 4 inch from the base and in another
motor the flame front on the delay was 5.5" from the base. The burn rate of the delay (whistle
fuel) was not the same in these two 6lb motor, but did appear to be also the same in 1lb motors.
The 1lb motors were different lengths too. So, I am guessing that the heat and pressure caused
by the fuel burning in the larger tube MAY have increased the burn rate over the same fuel in the
smaller diameter tube.
Posts: 1882
Location: Arkansas
Using a computer firing system I tried to launch 4 rockets (over a period of seconds) and make
all rockets salute at the same time. I could do it with 1lb, but not with 6lb. The burn rates just
seem to be all over the place. Not bad, but enough to fail the effect I was shooting for.
Dan T.
ned
Posted 4/7/2010 5:52 PM (#105276 - in reply to #105264)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
So I guess Lee, it's either use mineral oil and sacrifice some power in your whistle or learn to live
with melting the vasoline and using lacquer thinner. What the heck, it only takes me about an
extra 1-1/2 minute to melt the vasoline for a 1 kilo batch of whistle fuel. I just wouldn't think of
any other way to make it. It's just a part of the procedure in my opinion. No big deal.
And thanks, Mike. I now have a reason to pick on Lee.
_____________________________________
Expert
Posts: 6873
Guys, Mike didn't mention the possible option of dissolving the Vaseline in naphtha, so I went to
the Depot and bought some real VM&P Naphtha..
I'll put a glob of Vaseline in a jar, cover it with the naphtha, and shake it a bit, and leave it
overnight to see if it dissolves on its own.
*didn't have to wait overnight, so far. Put a blob of Vaseline (about 1/4 cup) in about a cup of
the naphtha (VM&P) in a Ball jar, and shook it for a minute or two. The blob broke up completely,
there's a cloudy solution in the jar,,with a few 1/4" globules which haven't dissolved yet. So, so
far, I'd say that a solution of cold Vaseline and VM&P naphtha can be made quite easily.
ned
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4/12/2010
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Page 24 of 35
Edited by ned 4/7/2010 6:14 PM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Danny Creagan
Posted 4/7/2010 6:29 PM (#105277 - in reply to #105274)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
ned - 4/7/2010 5:48 PM
Oh, Man,,,a third formula...
Expert
Posts: 3822
Location: Middle
Earth
Steve is just reflecting the many possibilities when using his spindles - he can't stop at just one
solution - he is trying to tell us about all the goodies. I compare Steve's enthusiasm about telling
us these things to drinking from a spittoon. Once started, it is hard to stop.
;-}
----I believe: the liquid will make you short, the cake will make you tall, animals can talk, cats can
disappear, there is a Wonderland, I can slay a Jabberwock, and my one pound rocket will lift that
header.
Dan Creagan
steve laduke
Posted 4/8/2010 8:21 AM (#105328 - in reply to #105274)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
ned - 4/7/2010 6:48 PM
Elite Veteran
ned - 4/7/2010 5:52 PM
Posts: 1118
Oh, Man,,,a third formula...
Steve, could you please post the BP formula you are now recommending for use with the UT, so we know
where to start with the simplest model, the BP/charcoal motor.
Thanks,
ned
Ned! Why didn't you say what rocket you were building? I use the formula 70-20-10-5 bp and use airfloat
charcoal in the straight BP rocket. Those other formulas are just to weak to make a good rocket. One guy even
told me he uses straight 75-15-10-5 BP and they still don't cato. All the more power to him. Isn't that 70-2010 formula on that sheet somewhere?
SLD
_____________________________________
I think I wish we were in the same room, sittin' around a table,,chatting, Steve.
With all these posts, I think we're passing each other at times.
I mentioned in a post above that I wanted to focus on the BP motor for now.
The only BP fuel formula I have from you is the one that is BP #1, that I listed in my first post in this whole
thread.
75 KNO3
15 airfloat
10 80-mesh
15 36-40 mesh
10 sulfur
5 dextrin
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4/12/2010
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Page 25 of 35
Your instructions say to use this #1 fuel to one increment above the spindle, and then switch to a slower delay
fuel such as willow-star-comp for another 2-3 increments.
So, you are saying that, really, for the BP rocket, you'd spec:
70 KNO3
20 airfloat
10 sulfur
5 dextrin
Use this in the same way, up one increment above the spindle, then switch to the willow-star comp for 2-3
increments?
How do you granulate your fuel? How wet do you get it? What size screen do you granulate it through?
If we can get these BP motor specs nailed down, that'd be a great start.
Thanks,
nski
Ned:
The very first BP recipe I used for the BP version in the hybrid spindle was 70-20-10-5 BP. The
charcoal was commercial airfloat and nothing was ballmilled, just thrown together and screened a
few times, riced and dried. It was ready to use. With this fuel, the results were so impressive, I
decided to stay with this fuel in the BP version using the H-U version.
Along the way with my expermentiong with different fuels and combinations with endburn and
hybrid rockets, that formula got on the sheet and was suppose to be used in combination with
whistle fuel, and used as a mixture of whistle and BP together. At that point of my work with
those rockets, I found that using the 50-50- mixed ratio of whistle and BP combined, you could
make a hybrid rocket. You still had to finish rocket with a small amount of 6-30-10-5 BP fuel on
the spindle because that 50-50 ratio was still to hot to keep the rocket from catoing. That is
where I stopped working with those versions of hybrid rockets.
Since then, one of our club members started making those rockets, using this version of WhistleBP mixe all the way to the top of the spindle without a cato. This was called the # 2 hybrid fuel.
He found that he could add between 20-30 parts of whistle fuel to 70 grams of the BP that is
listed on the sheet right now-75-15-15-10-5 to get a 100 gram batch of fuel, and when pressed
all the way up the spindle and 1 increment over, and then adding a few increments of another
fuel for a good bulkhead, the rockets wouldn't cato.
So that's how that formula got listed on the sheet. It was meant to be mixed with whistle in a
ratio that when mix together and pressed all the way to the top and above the spindle by one
increment, the rocket would not cato.
The small change of 80 mesh charcoal added came after I pressed up a rocket using the 75-1515-10-5 pressed alone to make a BP version and the damn thing catoed on ignition. I though,
how the hell did that happen? So I assumed that the fuel was to hot to use alone, all the way up
the spindle. So I added to that same formula already made with 75-15-15-10-5 an extra 10 parts
of 80 mesh charcoal. Then that one got printed of some of the handouts that were distrubuted to
some of my customers of my tooling.
Along with some of my customers, I added the original formula of the first mix I used for the BP
version of 70-20-10-5. I'm not a very good book keeper, and some of the information got kind of
screwed up along the way and I didn't care. But now we are getting at the guts of it.
Once I realized this formula of 75-15-15-10-5 was only around 60% nitrate based fuel, I knew
there was no possibility that using this fuel alone to press up a rocket could cato by itself. So
somewhere along the way, I must have screwed up when I made that first rocket using that fuel.
I knew I was adding whistle to this fuel in other rockets and it did not cato, but I still didn't know
the ratio of whistle to BP to use all the way up the spindle. Someone else figured this out; a 2030% whistle to BP mix all the way up the spindle and 1 increment above with a good bulkhead
above that.
So that's the story on that fuel. The original BP I used was 70-20-10-5 airfloat, commercial
charcoal. That make a very spicy bp rocket using the H-U tooling.
And if you want to spice it up, add some whistle to it, but then, you would have to only use
maybe 5 or 6 increments and then finish the rocket with some 60-30-10-5 BP on the rest of the
spindle, then press in a good bulkhead above that.
I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total weight of
the fuel with a mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the sun until it starts to
dry out and get less sticky, and before it's too dry, I screen it again while it is still damp. Once
more through the screen now, and you have a pretty fine mesh that mixes real good with the
whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The last few batches I made, I used SGRS for the
binder and used only 3%. This gives about the same hardness as 5% dextrin.
And Ned, are you familiar with the #1 version of the hybrid rocket? This version uses booster fuel
made with 76-23-1-10-3 whistle fuel. The 10 is additional 10 parts of ballmilled charcoal added
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Page 26 of 35
to the mix when making it. This was the formula I was using when the seminar was filmed at the
PGI. I can explain this procedure but if you buy the tape, it's all there. It was about 105 degrees
that day under the tent. Doc Steinberg filled in with me.
SLD
dapaki
Posted 4/8/2010 8:23 AM (#105329 - in reply to #105277)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Offline
Danny Creagan - 4/7/2010 6:29 PM
Expert
Steve is just reflecting the many possibilities when using his spindles - he can't stop at just one solution - he is
trying to tell us about all the goodies. I compare Steve's enthusiasm about telling us these things to drinking
from a spittoon. Once started, it is hard to stop. ;-}
ned - 4/7/2010 5:48 PM Oh, Man,,,a third formula...
Posts: 1825
Location: Up Nort
That is just so gross!
It is also my favorite joke, its long and drawn out and all the girls are gagging when I get to the
punch line.
Dave
steve laduke
Posted 4/8/2010 8:27 AM (#105330 - in reply to #105276)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
didn't have to wait overnight, so far. Put a blob of Vaseline (about 1/4 cup) in about a cup of the
naphtha (VM&P) in a Ball jar, and shook it for a minute or two. The blob broke up completely,
there's a cloudy solution in the jar,,with a few 1/4" globules which haven't dissolved yet. So, so
far, I'd say that a solution of cold Vaseline and VM&P naphtha can be made quite easily.
ned
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1118
Ned:
My 1-1/2 minute version of melting vasoline and adding lacquer thinner still beats that one. And
what I like about lacquer thinner, in probably 3/4 of an hour in the sun, you have already to
press whistle fuel that is crispy dry with no odor.
SLD
steve laduke
Online
Posted 4/8/2010 8:38 AM (#105332 - in reply to #105277)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Danny Creagan - 4/7/2010 7:29 PM
Elite Veteran
ned - 4/7/2010 5:48 PM
Posts: 1118
Oh, Man,,,a third formula...
Steve is just reflecting the many possibilities when using his spindles - he can't stop at just one solution - he is
trying to tell us about all the goodies. I compare Steve's enthusiasm about telling us these things to drinking
from a spittoon. Once started, it is hard to stop.
;-}
That one remindes me of a guy I watched in a bar one night eating popcorn and drinking beer. They were
egging him on about something and I didn't quite know what it was about. Finally he agreed and commenced
to vomit up and fill his glass right to the brim and it even ran over a bit. It looked like a coke with white blobs
mixed in. Then they really started cheering him on. After about a minute, when the cheering got so intense, he
raised the glass and drank it down again. I have to admit after watching that show, I really felt queasy. True
story. Then his girl friend came up and kissed him and collected a dollar from each of his cheering cohorts.
SLD
ned
Posted 4/8/2010 8:45 AM (#105334 - in reply to #105328)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
So that's the story on that fuel. The original BP I used was 70-20-10-5 airfloat, commercial
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/printer-friendly.asp?tid=11625&mid=
4/12/2010
Printer friendly copy of thread
Expert
Posts: 6873
Page 27 of 35
charcoal. That make a very spicy bp rocket using the H-U tooling.
And if you want to spice it up, add some whistle to it, but then, you would have to only use
maybe 5 or 6 increments and then finish the rocket with some 60-30-10-5 BP on the rest of the
spindle, then press in a good bulkhead above that.
I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total weight of
the fuel with a mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the sun until it starts to
dry out and get less sticky, and before it's too dry, I screen it again while it is still damp. Once
more through the screen now, and you have a pretty fine mesh that mixes real good with the
whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The last few batches I made, I used SGRS for the
binder and used only 3%. This gives about the same hardness as 5% dextrin.
_____________________________________________
Nowww,,we're gettin' somewhere.
That's the meat of the matter on these BP motors I was lookin' for, Steve.
Great!
So, to nail down the spec's for making a BP motor with the UT:
Fuel
.70 KNO3
.20 commercial airfloat charcoal
.10 sulfur
.05 dextrin
(no ball milling, let's say all chems to pass a 40-mesh screen?)
Add about 20% by weight 9/1 water/denatured-alcohol, to make a nice putty ball.
Screen through a window-mesh screen (about 16-mesh) onto non-absorbant sheets.
Screen again when the fuel is not so sticky.
Allow to dry completely.
I'd suppose that if this fuel starts getting too hot in the larger motors, it could be mixed with a
little of the other BP #1 fuel you have spec'd to tone it down a little?
Pressed increments should be an amount that presses to about 2/3 tube ID high around spindle,
and 1/2 tube ID tall above spindle.
Press a one-increment amount of clay nozzle mix in the tube, figuring 9000 psi on the comp
(figured on a solid increment of fuel, no spindle hole).
(approximate increment weights and volumes are listed in your other post, and in the table
elsewhere in this thread)
Press the BP fuel to one increment above the spindle, then switch to a slower delay mix such as
Willow Star Mix (or COM or colored fuel..), granulated the same way. Press 2-3 increments of the
delay, shooting for a total delay of 5-seconds, depending some on the size of the motor.
Use personal preference on whether or not to press a clay bulkhead.
Add heading to taste.
I'd like to verify that these are Your spec's, Steve. (I don't want to put any words in your
mouth.)
Then in a dedicated thread about these motors, others can toss in the variations they've tried.
This is great and will be of good benefit to users of the UTooling..
nski
Edited by ned 4/8/2010 9:06 AM
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(img034.jpg)
Attachments
---------------img034.jpg (74KB - 0 downloads)
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Posted 4/8/2010 8:47 AM (#105335 - in reply to #105330)
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ned
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Ned:
My 1-1/2 minute version of melting vasoline and adding lacquer thinner still beats that one. And
what I like about lacquer thinner, in probably 3/4 of an hour in the sun, you have already to
press whistle fuel that is crispy dry with no odor.
SLD
______________________________________
Expert
Posts: 6873
That's cool, Steve.
When we get to spec'ing the whistle and/or strobe fuels, let's get good details on your methods,
then we can let others toss in their two cents worth.
My first goal is to get the 'inventor of the UTooling' spec's set in stone.
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/8/2010 9:17 AM (#105338 - in reply to #105334)
Subject: Re: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
ned - 4/8/2010 9:45 AM
Elite Veteran
So that's the story on that fuel. The original BP I used was 70-20-10-5 airfloat, commercial charcoal. That
make a very spicy bp rocket using the H-U tooling.
And if you want to spice it up, add some whistle to it, but then, you would have to only use maybe 5 or 6
increments and then finish the rocket with some 60-30-10-5 BP on the rest of the spindle, then press in a good
bulkhead above that.
I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total weight of the fuel with a
mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the sun until it starts to dry out and get less sticky,
and before it's too dry, I screen it again while it is still damp. Once more through the screen now, and you
have a pretty fine mesh that mixes real good with the whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The last
few batches I made, I used SGRS for the binder and used only 3%. This gives about the same hardness as 5%
dextrin.
_____________________________________________
Posts: 1118
Nowww,,we're gettin' somewhere.
That's the meat of the matter on these BP motors I was lookin' for, Steve.
Great!
So, to nail down the spec's for making a BP motor with the UT:
Fuel
.70 KNO3
.20 commercial airfloat charcoal
.10 sulfur
.05 dextrin
(no ball milling, let's say all chems to pass a 40-mesh screen?)
Add about 20% by weight 9/1 water/denatured-alcohol, to make a nice putty ball.
Screen through a window-mesh screen (about 16-mesh) onto non-absorbant sheets.
Screen again when the fuel is not so sticky.
Allow to dry completely.
I'd suppose that if this fuel starts getting too hot in the larger motors, it could be mixed with a little of the
other BP #1 fuel you have spec'd to tone it down a little?
Pressed increments should be an amount that presses to about 2/3 tube ID high around spindle, and 1/2 tube
ID tall above spindle.
Press a one-increment amount of clay nozzle mix in the tube, figuring 9000 psi on the comp (figured on a solid
increment of fuel, no spindle hole).
Press the BP fuel to one increment above the spindle, then switch to a slower delay mix such as Willow Star
Mix (or COM or colored fuel..), granulated the same way. Press 2-3 increments of the delay, shooting for a
total delay of 5-seconds, depending some on the size of the motor.
Use personal preference on whether or not to press a clay bulkhead.
Add heading to taste.
I'd like to verify that these are Your spec's, Steve. (I don't want to put any words in your mouth.)
Then in a dedicated thread about these motors, others can toss in the variations they've tried.
This is great and will be of good benefit to users of the UTooling..
nski
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/printer-friendly.asp?tid=11625&mid=
4/12/2010
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Ned:
That fuel, 70-20-10-5 works in ever rocket I made it with up to 1 inch ID. And I assume it will
work in the larger versions also.
All the chems passed through a 40 mesh screen.
The clay increment should be just enough to prevent the spindle from jamming. That's why it's
so important to make a line on the rammer to show where this point is on the first rammer.
When I make tooling, I always try to make that rammer jam just below a point on the spindle
that where a good increment of clay will not allow it to jam. So when you first get a new set of
tooling from me, if there isn't already a jam line machined on the rammer, you have to make one
yourself. I've made them with and without jam lines machined on them. I am making tooling
now with these lines machined on all the rammers. And I/ve thought of machining 2 lines. One to
show where the rammer jams, and the lower line to show when it's time to use the next shorter
rammer in sequence. Will it help? I don't know.
All the other information you quoted is correct.
SLD
ned
Posted 4/8/2010 11:05 AM (#105363 - in reply to #105335)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Ned:
My 1-1/2 minute version of melting vasoline and adding lacquer thinner still beats that one. And
what I like about lacquer thinner, in probably 3/4 of an hour in the sun, you have already to
press whistle fuel that is crispy dry with no odor.
SLD
______________________________________
Expert
Posts: 6873
Steve, can you elaborate on Your method of mixing the whistle fuels you use?
Let's take your Whistle Mix #2 Fuel, for example:
.76 potassium perchlorate
.23 socium salicylate
.01 red iron oxide
.025 vaseline
lacquer thinner
Can you elaborate on what quantity of fuel you mix, how fine you get your chems, how you mix
them prior to wetting them, how you prepare the solvent mixture, how you add it, and how you
dry it, please.
(Once again, I know there are plenty of variations on this theme that many of us have personally
developed,,and they work. But, for right now, I'm trying to pick Steve's brain on this. Once we
get his methods clearly understood, I'll get the Whistle/Long-Winded-Screamer thread going,
with his fuel details, and with opportunities for others to note their unique methods.)
Thanks,
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/9/2010 10:45 AM (#105477 - in reply to #105363)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Steve, can you elaborate on Your method of mixing the whistle fuels you use?
Let's take your Whistle Mix #2 Fuel, for example:
Ned:
I can tell you never owned a video of any of the rocket seminars that I gave at any of the
conventions otherwise you wouldn't have to ask this question. I think I demenstrated my method
in everyone of them.
For a 1 kilo batch:
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1118
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Weigh out 760 grms. of p. perc and then in the same container add 10 grms. of either red iron
oxide or copper oxichloride for the catalist. Then run this through a gravy strainer 2 times. Then
run in through a 40 mesh screen 2 times.
Weigh out 230 grms. of sodium salicylate. With the first comp already screened and in a large,
plastic bowl, screen the saly through the gravy strainer into the bowl of perc-iron oxide mix.
Once all this is in the large mixing bowl, I don my face shield, leather gauntlets, and cover my
arms. I then sift all the chems together. What I used to do is place the whole batch in the ballmill
and mill it for about 15 minutes. This is an optional step and don't reccomend this to anyone
unless you have an area to safely do this without attracting a lot of attention if something goes
wrong.
The second method is to run everything through the gravy strainer 3 times, as gently as you can.
A static spark during this process is the only thing I worry about. Then make a depression in the
comp inside the bowl.
Weigh out 25 grams of vasoline and place this in a container and melt it with a propane torch. I
do this away from the mixed comp of course. Then I take a can of lacquer thinner and carefully
pour 1/3 cup full from the can and add this to the container of melted vasoline, carefully,
because it will boil up. Once it cools slightly, I'm ready to add more. If you would take a full cup
and add it all at once, it probably would not boil up to much because it will cool much faster. I
weighed this all out once. I found that a total of 220 grams of vasoline and lacquer thinner was
enough for a 1 kilo batch of whistle fuel, so go figure how much of each is in the container.
Pour this into the bowl of whistle fuel and start mixing. I found that using a pastry mixer with the
5 metal knife type teeth to use in this step of mixing up the fuel works the fastest to incorporate
the mix. During this time, you may see little granuals of white specks in the mix. This is either
perc or most likely sodium salicylate. I use a 1-3/4 inch diamater dowel pin to smear the mix
until I don't see any more of these white specks in the mix. It may dry out some while this
mixing process is going on so add more lacquer thinner at any time. If you add enough at the
start, you shouldn't have to add any during the mixing process.
Once all these white specks are gone, then I pound down the mix into a nice firm layer in the
bottom of the bowl and get ready to run it through my ricing screen. I have a stainless screen
with window sized openings, stretched over a coffee can and held on with a big hose clamp. I
proceed to slice out of the bowl some of the comp and push it through the screen. I make 4 piles
on 2 sheets of heavy kraft backed by a piece of cardboard, and tape down the edges of the kraft
to the cardboard. This kraft is about the size of a piece of news paper. Then I spread out these 4
piles on each as evenly as I can and place the paper in the sun and hold down the corners.
And here's a step I never used to do but since I started combining whistle with BP, I like to
watch the whistle pretty close at this point so it doesn't dry out to much. On dry days with low
humidity, it only takes no more that 10-12 mimutes before the fuel is dry enough but still damp,
and I run it through the gravy strainer once more, which has a slightly larges mesh size that the
ricing screen. After this, the fuel goes back onto the kraft paper and is fully dried. I like to leave
the fuel dry for at least 1 hour in this condition.
With this second screening, you eliminate all the bigger chunks that you find in the screened mix
if you only screen it once. And it maks for a better homoginous mix when you blend it with the
BP.
There is a big difference between ricing benzoate and salicylate. Benzoate needs more lacquer
thinner than saly when screening if you want it to go through the screen as easy. Only
experience will help with this problem, and only experience just making it will give you a better
feeling for making it this way.
This whole process takes about 1 hour to do. So here you have a scale to go by.
I just talked to Steve K. and he told me he was making 15 lb. batches in a 5 gallon pail. He was
using a drywall mixer to mix his fuel up. Get the ben. or saly wet first along with the catalist,
then slowly dump in the oxidiser and keep mixing. This sounds like a good way to mix large
batches, but beware of any sparks from a drill. If you get the stuff pretty wet in the pail, then
you will have problems getting it just right before you can rice it. I haven't figured out this yet,
but making big batches and doing it only once appeals to me. Of course, this method should
appeal to you if one rocket takes 5 lbs. of fuel to make. Enough for 3 rockets.
I also would like to say that I only make whistle or any other fuels on sunny days where it can
dry with the heat of the sun beating down on it. It really gets crusty dry this way, even if the
humidity is fairly high, but have noticed the difference between low and high humidity drying
days.
After the fuel is completely dry, I hope, then it's stored in a coffee can with a dessicant bag. It
probably wouldn't hurt to place it in a zip lock inside the can, along with the dessicant bag. At
least your can wouldn't rust out then.
2 more hours of my time, Ned. I'm thinking about charging you for that extra set of tooling.
SLD
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ned
Posted 4/9/2010 11:15 AM (#105479 - in reply to #105477)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
That's the info from you that I was hoping to include in the Universal Tooling Motor specs, Steve.
Expert
Posts: 6873
Excellent.
I'm going to copy it into a dedicated "Making Whistle Fueled Motors with Universal Tooling"
thread,
then post your specs for actually making the motors.
Thanks,
n
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 10:38 AM (#105711 - in reply to #105479)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
A couple good notes which might prove useful for newcomers who are trying any motors made
per all of these spec's:
Good tubes, like NEPTubes need to be used with these motors, made with these high pressing
pressures.
Expert
Posts: 6873
My personal fave nozzle and bulkhead mix techniques are detailed here:
http://skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=107#mi...
An interesting discussion about different ways to remove a finished motor from the spindle is
included in this thread:
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11605&posts=19...
Steve's personal fave method for removing a motor from the spindle involves inserting a solid
drift into the top, hollow end of the motor (the motor has to have this hollow end for this
technique to work).
The solid drift supports the tube as a vice-grip or channel-lock pliers is used to grip that end of
the motor securely, avoiding gripping where the fuel grain or clay bulkhead is inside the motor,
to avoid damaging it.
Then the pliers are used to twist the motor off the spindle, and the tube is only minimally marred
by this procedure.
Steve also keeps his spindles highly polished, which facilitates the motor removal from them.
Edited by ned 4/11/2010 10:56 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 11:14 AM (#105717 - in reply to #105711)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
And, finally,,,
or,,"in the beginning",
these are the original instructions that Steve provides with his tooling.
Some folks won't get these instructions if they get their tooling elswhere,
and maybe having these original instrucitions can prove useful, combined with all of Steve's
other specs in these threads:
Expert
Posts: 6873
"
---------- Forwarded Message ---------The hybrid spindle
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Five different rockets can be made using the hybrid spindle.
Black powder motor
Strobe rocket
long winded screamer
hybrid motor
colored tail rocket
The black powder . and hybrid motor are the only two that use a nozzle.
A rule of thumb when making the strobe and the long winded screamer is to use four increments
of the whistle mix pressed first.
Of course a nozzle in the hybrid motor or black powder motor, then finish the motor with
whatever other fuel being used, according to which motor you are making.
An increment is 7 grams, plus or minus 1 gram. It's better to be on the minus side. For the black
powder . motor, a nozzle and black powder is all that is needed. For a different tail on the rocket,
another fuel may be used other than blk. powder. I use no clay choke above the fuel in my
motors except in hybrid motors when lifting heavy payloads because a short delay is built into
the rocket which needs added strength to withstand blow through.
Fuels
Black Powder # 1 Whistle mix # 2
75---- potassium nitrate 76------potassium perchlorate
23---- sodium salicylate
15---- charcoal- ballmilled 1---- iron oxide
5----- 80 mesh 2.5 Vaseline
15--- charcoal-- 36-40 mesh lacquer thinner
10 sulfur
5---dextrin-----water& alcohol
Whistle mix--- # 3
64----- potassium perchlorate
32------ sodium benzoate
1----- iron oxide
5---- Vaseline
lacquer thinner
Strobe mix------ # 4
60------- Ammonium Perchlorate
25------ magnalium-----50-50 -200 mesh
15 ------ barium sulfate
5------ potassium dichromate
NC lacquer & acetone about 10% mix of NC lacquer
Each fuel was given a #. These are referenced when making each motor.
In increments: --------> means the rest of the way
Strobe rocket
4---- # 2 (four increments of #2 whistle fuel)
--------> #4 to 1/8" above the spindle, then finish with 2-3 more increments of # 2 for a bulk
head.
Long winded screamer
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4----#2
------->---#3 all the way to the top of the rocket tube. Leave enough space to grab the motor
with a vice grip to pull it off the spindle after inserting the solid rammer into it. On the
increments above the spindle, I always add flake titanium in each scoop before I press it in.
Black Powder Motor
1---- clay choke--- about a teaspoon
-------> # 1 to one increment above the spindle. 2 to 3 additional increments of a slower burning
fuel, like willow mix or chrysanthemum of mystery or a color fuel, as long as it doesn't have
potassium chlorate for an oxidizer. You want about a 5 second delay above the rocket for which
this fuel above the spindle gives you.
Hybrid motor
This motor has some latitude in how many increments of whistle mix you can use, but start with
four increments first and don't forget your nozzle first. The first increments consist of:
76-----potassium perchlorate
23----- sodium salicylate
1----- iron oxide
10----- ballmilled charcoal------do this to the charcoal
I've added as many as 7 increments of the whistle mix with the added charcoal before they
would blow. Finish the rocket with a mix of 60---- potassium nitrate 30----- charcoal 10 sulfur
and 5 parts dextrin. This fuel has to be riced with water and alcohol before it can be used, the
same as the # 1 fuel. You can finish the rocket with this mix or you can press in a slower fuel
such as willow mix also or a color fuel about 1" above the last increment of rocket fuel. These
rockets go so high it won't hurt to have a long delay built into it. The best ending to have on
there rockets it to use willow mix above the rocket fuel and use a pinch of titanium, atomized in
each increment as it is pressed in to at least 3/4" above the spindle. This gives you the nice
titanium tail that hangs in the air for a while.
I know I've dumped a lot of information on you as it took me 35 years to develop these motors
themselves. I know you will have questions. Just ask.
One thing to mention is that I rice all of my fuels that I use to make motors. This is a must. For
all of the whistle mixes I use lacquer thinner and the blk. pwd.fuels I use water and alchol and
for the strobe I use acetone
For the colored tail rocket, press in three increments of # 2 whistle mix, then press the color of
your choice to about 1 inch above the spindle. Most colored fuels burn not too fast so 1 inch
above the spindle is a starting point. Vary the amount above the spindle to get the required
delay. If the colored fuel burns real slow, just add and extra increment of whistle to the rocket
before starting the colored fuel.
The hybrid fuel used for this rocket can be changed to what I call my hybrid #2 fuel. This is a
blend of whistle mix and black pwd. to a ratio of 65-35 by weight with the 65 being whistle mix.
The blk. pwd. ratio itself is the # 1 mix and the whistle mix is the # 2 mix. I'm not sure just how
much of the blend can be used in the rocket, but so far, I've used it all the way up to about 1
inch from the top of the spindle and then finished the rocket with 60-30-10-2.5 blk. pwd. without
a cato. I'm sure you can change the ratio to be able to use it all the way to the top and 1
increment above the spindle and then use something else for the delay above it. This is a fairly
new twist to this fuel for this spindle and I haven't finished expermenting with it yet. This same
fuel, # 2 hybrid works excellent in end burn rockets also. All the coarse charcoal gives the rocket
a nice charcoal tail.
Mike, please send back this email to me so I can copy it and save it. Whenever I hit the save
draft button, it just doesn't do it. This way, I can save your email that you send back. Thanks.
Steve La Duke
"
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
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ned
Posted 4/11/2010 8:30 PM (#105771 - in reply to #105711)
Subject: RE: Developing Spec's for Universal Tooling
Online
Also, for anyone new to fusing motors which start with an increment of whistle fuel, and no
nozzle, it can be important to fuse them correctly.
With most of these motors, installing a fuse up into the core of the motor is asking for a CATO.
The fuse must ignite the whistle fuel right at the bottom, as close to where that fuel grain meets
the tube inside wall as possible.
In this article, I've detailed my fave method for installing that Visco fuse.
It's easy and simple, it ignites the motor whistle fuel in just the right spot, and the fuse never
falls out of the end of the motor.
The only trick is to drill the fuse hole in the tube-wall prior to pressing the fuel.
Expert
Posts: 6873
http://skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=153#ar...
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose
one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
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Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
ned
Posted 4/8/2010 9:12 AM (#105336)
Subject: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
I'd like to have a thread dedicated to each type of motor that can be made with LaDukeDesign's Universal Rocket Tooling.
This is the bottom line we're getting to on the BP motor.
I'd like to get verification from Steve that all this looks good to him.
Then, if others would like to ask questions, or add comments on their personal
variations on this type of motor, made on this type of tooling, we can have at it.
Please, let's keep comments and questions in this thread pertinent to this motor, on this
tooling.
It can then become a useful, dedicated resource for others in the future.
ned
_______________________________________________
Expert
Posts: 6874
Quote from Steve:
"So that's the story on that fuel. The original BP I used was 70-20-10-5 airfloat,
commercial charcoal. That make a very spicy bp rocket using the H-U tooling.
And if you want to spice it up, add some whistle to it, but then, you would have to only
use maybe 5 or 6 increments and then finish the rocket with some 60-30-10-5 BP on the
rest of the spindle, then press in a good bulkhead above that.
I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total
weight of the fuel with a mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the
sun until it starts to dry out and get less sticky, and before it's too dry, I screen it again
while it is still damp. Once more through the screen now, and you have a pretty fine
mesh that mixes real good with the whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The
last few batches I made, I used SGRS for the binder and used only 3%. This gives about
the same hardness as 5% dextrin."
_____________________________________________
Nowww,,we're gettin' somewhere.
That's the meat of the matter on these BP motors I was lookin' for, Steve.
Great!
So, to nail down the spec's for making a BP motor with the UT:
Fuel
.70 KNO3
.20 commercial airfloat charcoal
.10 sulfur
.05 dextrin
(no ball milling, let's say all chems to pass a 40-mesh screen?)
Add about 20% by weight 9/1 water/denatured-alcohol, to make a nice putty ball.
Screen through a window-mesh screen (about 16-mesh) onto non-absorbant sheets.
Screen again when the fuel is not so sticky.
Allow to dry completely.
I'd suppose that if this fuel starts getting too hot in the larger motors, it could be mixed
with a little of the other BP #1 fuel you have spec'd to tone it down a little?
Pressed increments should be an amount that presses to about 2/3 tube ID high around
spindle, and 1/2 tube ID tall above spindle.
Press a one-increment amount of clay nozzle mix in the tube, figuring 9000 psi on the
comp (figured on a solid increment of fuel, no spindle hole).
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(approximate increment weights and volumes are listed in your other post, and in the
table elsewhere in this thread)
Press the BP fuel to one increment above the spindle, then switch to a slower delay mix
such as Willow Star Mix (or COM or colored fuel..), granulated the same way. Press 2-3
increments of the delay, shooting for a total delay of 5-seconds, depending some on the
size of the motor.
Use personal preference on whether or not to press a clay bulkhead.
Add heading to taste.
I'd like to verify that these are Your spec's, Steve. (I don't want to put any words in
your mouth.)
Then in a dedicated thread about these motors, others can toss in the variations they've
tried.
This is great and will be of good benefit to users of the UTooling..
nski
Edited by ned 4/8/2010 10:06 AM
(img034.jpg)
Edited by ned 4/8/2010 9:16 AM
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(img034.jpg)
Attachments
---------------img034.jpg (74KB - 0 downloads)
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
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choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
ned
Posted 4/8/2010 9:24 AM (#105340 - in reply to #105336)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
From Steve,
"Ned:
That fuel, 70-20-10-5 works in ever rocket I made it with up to 1 inch ID. And I assume
it will work in the larger versions also.
Expert
Posts: 6874
All the chems passed through a 40 mesh screen.
The clay increment should be just enough to prevent the spindle from jamming. That's
why it's so important to make a line on the rammer to show where this point is on the
first rammer. When I make tooling, I always try to make that rammer jam just below a
point on the spindle that where a good increment of clay will not allow it to jam. So
when you first get a new set of tooling from me, if there isn't already a jam line
machined on the rammer, you have to make one yourself. I've made them with and
without jam lines machined on them. I am making tooling now with these lines
machined on all the rammers. And I/ve thought of machining 2 lines. One to show
where the rammer jams, and the lower line to show when it's time to use the next
shorter rammer in sequence. Will it help? I don't know.
All the other information you quoted is correct.
SLD"
___________________________________________________
Steve,
others will be getting UTooling from other providers, or making it for themselves, so the
jam point between the spindle and the nozzle-rammer will probably vary in height from
one tool set to another.
Can you specify the "nozzle throat height", excluding the convergent and divergent
tapers, for a motor?
It would be great if it can be spec'd in terms of the motor tube ID.
That way it can be extrapolated to other motor sizes.
For example, is the "nozzle throat height" in one of your 3/4" ID motors, say 1/2"
tall,,,or 3/4" tall?? (say, 2/3 or 1 tube ID tall?)
This would provide a more specific spec on the nozzle height for those whose tooling
does not jam at the same place as the tooling you make.
And I think the two machined lines on the rammers would be of extreme benefit to
users, Steve.
And, I guess I'd add a personal note here.
If I'm ordering UTooling,,I'm ordering it from Steve, if he has the time and ability to
make it.
I love the other tool makers, and am grateful for them, but Steve invented this tooling, I
consider his tooling to be real works of art,,and I consider it a responsibility to
compensate him for his UT efforts..
ned
Edited by ned 4/8/2010 9:27 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
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ned
Posted 4/8/2010 9:49 AM (#105346 - in reply to #105340)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
I've added:
"Univ Tooling BP Motor Fuel"
into the Formulas database:
Expert
Posts: 6874
Page 5 of 13
Formulas
Shared
Rocket
BP fuel
Univ Tooling BP Motor Fuel
n
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Mike B
Posted 4/8/2010 10:19 AM (#105352 - in reply to #105346)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Offline
Finally a thread with some real meat in it. Seems for a while there was nothing but
nebulous bs. Good job Steve and Ned. Thank you.
Expert
Posts: 2527
ned
Posted 4/8/2010 10:26 AM (#105354 - in reply to #105340)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
Here is the cleaned-up version of the Increment Sizes Table,
with the latest info from Steve included.
http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf
Expert
Posts: 6874
The top part of the chart started with some basic info from Steve,
and then was expanded based on volume sizes.
Then Steve added his expanded info, which is in the table's bottom section.
This ought to provide good starting points as folks dial in their fuel-increment sizes.
n
Edited by ned 4/8/2010 10:41 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/8/2010 10:43 AM (#105356 - in reply to #105340)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
others will be getting UTooling from other providers, or making it for themselves, so the
jam point between the spindle and the nozzle-rammer will probably vary in height from
one tool set to another.
Can you specify the "nozzle throat height", excluding the convergent and divergent
tapers, for a motor
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
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Ned:
That first increment that is pressed into the rocket, whether it be clay or fuel, should
keep the rammer from sticking onto the spindle. That is about all the information I can
give you. I don't know what that dimension is because I never measured it. And if it
really matters, I don't think it makes much difference how much clay you add to that
first increment. I will hardly make a differenc in the performance of the rocket. Like I
said, enough clay to prevent the rammer from sticking.
SLD
Lee C. Bussy
Posted 4/8/2010 10:46 AM (#105357 - in reply to #105336)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Offline
Okay ... what the hell is the difference between a heaping and a round teaspoon?
----Lee C. Bussy
Location: Kansas
City, MO
How to include pictures in posts:
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704
ned
Posted 4/8/2010 10:49 AM (#105358 - in reply to #105356)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
Ned:
That first increment that is pressed into the rocket, whether it be clay or fuel, should
keep the rammer from sticking onto the spindle. That is about all the information I can
give you. I don't know what that dimension is because I never measured it. And if it
really matters, I don't think it makes much difference how much clay you add to that
first increment. I will hardly make a differenc in the performance of the rocket. Like I
said, enough clay to prevent the rammer from sticking.
SLD
_____________________________________
Expert
Posts: 6874
My thought is that with some tooling (by other makers, perhaps), the rammer Never
sticks on the spindle, Steve.
It'll slide all the way down until it hits the start of the divergent part of the spindle.
But, if we spec an 'increment' of the clay, as determined in the 'increment size
chart',,that ought to get folks in the ballpark of a good increment height, I guess.
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
ned
Posted 4/8/2010 10:53 AM (#105359 - in reply to #105357)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
Okay ... what the hell is the difference between a heaping and a round teaspoon?
___________________________________
In the terminology in my haid, Lee,
a Heaping spoonful is the most one can keep on the spoon after dipping it in the powder,
Expert
Posts: 6874
and a Round spoonful has had the excess powder tapped off, so the increment is
rounded off..but not Heaping..
then, once again in my haid, there's the Slightly Rounded spoonful, which has had most
of the excess fuel tapped off, but is still,,,slightly rounded..
and then there's the flat spoonful, where the powder is flat with the edges of the spoon.
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The real goal of course is to dial in a 'personal' measuring scoopful which achieves the
right height of a pressed increment,, 1/2 tube ID tall above the spindle, 2/3 tube ID tall
around the spindle..
Close enuf,
nski
Edited by ned 4/8/2010 10:55 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Lee C. Bussy
Posted 4/8/2010 11:01 AM (#105360 - in reply to #105336)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Offline
Ah, I got ya.
I'm gonna make me up some scoops, now that you've done all the figgerin' for us.
Location: Kansas
City, MO
----Lee C. Bussy
How to include pictures in posts:
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704
steve laduke
Posted 4/8/2010 11:02 AM (#105361 - in reply to #105336)
Subject: Re: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
OK, guys. So with that chart, and when making any rockets that don't use a nozzle.
multiply the whistle fuel increment times 4 to get the total amount of whistle fuel that is
used for that particular rocket that is pressed in first. On the original sheet that I gave
out to my customers where it says and the rest of the fuel with the arrow, this is when
you begin to press the other fuel to the top of the spindle and 1 increment above. You
can change the fuel at this point to something else, or use the same fuel for the
bulkhead. It's up to you what you want in the tail of the rocket. The only rocket where I
increment above the spindle would not be correct is in the strobe rocket. 1 full
increment would be to much delay, and I always specify no more that around 3/16 or
slight more in this part of the rocket. The strobe rocket is always completed with at least
2-1/2 increments of fast whistle with ti added. You can add whatever you want to get a
secure bulkhead into this rocket.
SLD
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
steve laduke
Posted 4/8/2010 11:08 AM (#105364 - in reply to #105358)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
My thought is that with some tooling (by other makers, perhaps), the rammer Never
sticks on the spindle, Steve.
It'll slide all the way down until it hits the start of the divergent part of the spindle.
But, if we spec an 'increment' of the clay, as determined in the 'increment size
chart',,that ought to get folks in the ballpark of a good increment height, I guess.
ned
Ned:
Your are absolutely right. So the amount of clay isn't critical. Just enough to prevent the
rammer from hitting the divergent portion of the spindle, or with my tooling, just so it
doesn't stick to the spindle. And being in the ballpark here is close enough.
SLD
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
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ned
Posted 4/8/2010 11:14 AM (#105365 - in reply to #105364)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
Ned:
Your are absolutely right. So the amount of clay isn't critical. Just enough to prevent the
rammer from hitting the divergent portion of the spindle, or with my tooling, just so it
doesn't stick to the spindle. And being in the ballpark here is close enough.
SLD
___________________________
Expert
Posts: 6874
I know we're pretty much on the same page now, Steve.
But if Joe "newbie" Blow hears, "just enough to prevent the rammer from hitting the
divergent portion of the spindle"...he can press a nozzle which only has a 'pointy,
wedge-shaped nozzle throat', which comes to a sharp point which will be instantly
eroded by high-pressure gasses..
There just simply has to be a minimum nozzle throat height, when using a clay nozzle,
which will resist erosion by hot gasses.
The sketch below illustrates my point.
In my opinion, the nozzle throat height is simply not tall enough to resist erosion, even
though there was enough clay used to 'prevent the rammer from hitting the divergent
portion of the spindle."
Your nozzle forming rammer which pinches the spindle at X height above the divergent
spindle start, accomplishes the pressing of a good nozzle height.
Tools by other makers might not accomplish that.
That's why I think it's important to spec at least a measured increment of the clay, to
create some good nozzle-throat height which will resist erosion.
nski
Edited by ned 4/8/2010 11:24 AM
(img035.jpg)
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----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
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dapaki
Offline
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Posted 4/8/2010 11:41 AM (#105368 - in reply to #105360)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Lee C. Bussy - 4/8/2010 11:01 AM
Ah, I got ya.
Expert
Posts: 1825
I'm gonna make me up some scoops, now that you've done all the figgerin' for us.
Location: Up Nort
Lee,
I made scoops from copper caps and coated pipe hangers fro the Home Depot. They are
quick to make, you can cut them down to size and are both spark and static proof.
Edited by dapaki 4/8/2010 11:44 AM
(100_0243.JPG)
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Ol Baldy
Posted 4/8/2010 12:52 PM (#105373 - in reply to #105336)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
Ned
I'm going to throw in my $.02 worth here. My prefered straight BP fuel for the 1# H-U
tooling is 75-15-15-10+5. The second 15 is coarse charcoal. This is one of SLD's
formulas which hasn't been mentioned yet. I use my stock BP mix, which is 75-15-10+5
dex. I make this in the ball mill. Nitrate and fuel milled seperatley for 2 hours and then
all together in the pool for 1 additional hour. I use this base BP for just about
everything. For rocket fuel I just screen in 15% 30-40 mesh charcoal for a nice tail. This
works out to about 69-13-13-9. However I don't believe the coarse coal takes place in
the reaction much. I looks like most of it burns outside the motor. I'm going to try some
made with aluminum for a tail sometime.
Veteran
Posts: 152
I've been using Western Red Cedar to make my charcoal. According to Danny Creagan.,
it is almost as quick as balsa.
This fuel is pressed to 7500#. A month ago I was at SLD's estate and we pressed up a
couple rockets on his press, (I gotta get me one of those!) and flew 'em. Steve thought
mine was pretty zippy. A later test showed my fuel to be a bit faster than his.
The upshot is, Steve's tooling can stand the hottest black powder you can make. I've got
a series of 1#'rs made up with my fuel with added hot whistle mix to test at the next
club shoot. 10%-35% whistle. I'm guessing up 30% whistle won't CATO. One at 40%
blew up last year.
Baldy
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Ol Baldy
Posted 4/8/2010 1:10 PM (#105374 - in reply to #105373)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
Baldy babbled...For rocket fuel I just screen in 15% 30-40 mesh charcoal for a nice tail.
Veteran
I forgot to mention I then dampen and screen it through a 16 mesh screen and dry it on
newspaper in the sun if available. I then sift it with a 10 mesh screen to take out the
lumps.
Posts: 152
I also want to thank Ned for his efforts on this thread.
Tom
DWC
Posted 4/8/2010 1:19 PM (#105375 - in reply to #105373)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
Elite Veteran
Posts: 626
Location: CT
FWIW I've only used SLD H-U tooling ( bought from Rich Wolter,... sorry Steve) to make
my 3# BP motors.
I've settled in at 63-27 -10 fuel, ball milled, made with spruce C, riced. Fuel to the top of
the spindle and .600" win 39 delay. No bulkhead.
The motor will comfortably lift a 600g 4" headering. I know the motor is capable of
hotter fuel, but I like having the motor de-rated for grace and reliability.
Four level tsp nozzle mix gives me an aprox. .5" throated nozzle. Never had one fail.
----Dan
"90% ain't good enough in this hobby" TR
ned
Posted 4/8/2010 1:25 PM (#105376 - in reply to #105375)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
Thanks Tom and Dan..
This is the kind of 'addendum' info I'm going to print out, and refer to for future
experimentation.
You put a dozen of our great minds together, pointed in the right direction by
Steve,,,and we'll end up with...a dozen nice, different rocket models..
nski
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Expert
Posts: 6874
ned
Posted 4/8/2010 2:03 PM (#105377 - in reply to #105375)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
I've settled in at 63-27 -10 fuel, ball milled, made with spruce C, riced. Fuel to the top of
the spindle and .600" win 39 delay. No bulkhead.
_________________________________
Expert
Posts: 6874
Dan, are you using any dex in your fuel?
It doesn't seem like it was ever 'traditional' to use dex in the BP rocket fuels, but the
inclusion of it does seem like it'd produce nice, tough, non-dusty granules, which will
press solidly under the kinds of pressure we're talkin' about.
Dex will also slow a fuel down a bit, too..
n
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
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Viktor Frankl
DWC
Posted 4/8/2010 7:44 PM (#105410 - in reply to #105377)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
No dextrin. Just wetted with about 25% water. patted into a ball and riced thru a 12
mesh sceen. I know 25% sounds high but that's what it takes with the spruce C.
Elite Veteran
And I press to 6500 psi which is another advantage to a de-tuned motor. I don't have to
get nutty about loading pressure.
Posts: 626
Edited by DWC 4/8/2010 7:53 PM
Location: CT
----Dan
"90% ain't good enough in this hobby" TR
steve laduke
Posted 4/9/2010 11:20 AM (#105482 - in reply to #105340)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
And, I guess I'd add a personal note here.
If I'm ordering UTooling,,I'm ordering it from Steve, if he has the time and ability to
make it.
I love the other tool makers, and am grateful for them, but Steve invented this tooling, I
consider his tooling to be real works of art,,and I consider it a responsibility to
compensate him for his UT efforts..
ned
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
This whoe thread will difinately help the other tool makers when I decide to retire from
making tooling. Only then will my instruction match the tools. Every other tool maker
adds his special design to his tools. And if those dimensions don't match mine, that
throws off something along the way.
For instance, where my first rammer jams onto the spindle. I have a reason for this. The
only way around this feature is take a new set of tooling and mark yourself, the jam
points of the rammers to be sure you don't jam those rammers. And it's a simple step to
a lot of headachs.
I know guys want to save money when buying rocket tools sets. That's fine with me.
When I make up a tools set, it takes me about 5 hours. I can't stand that long anymore
in one spot so it takes me at least 2 days to complete a set. And then consider material
I have to buy to make the tooling. Add that in as my cost. I'm proud of a set of tooling I
make. There are things I do that I know no other tool maker does to the tooling, and it
shows when you make a rocket, whether you know it or not. And you may wait a while
before you get your tooling from me. This is not a occupation for me but a hobby or past
time that I enjoy doing less and less. And at this point in my life, I can't say I always
feel like standing in from of a lathe to make tooling. So that is why the tooling you get
from me is more "Expensive" that the other guys. But there are a few that insist they
get their tooling from me. I appreciate this, and I think they know something that other
rocket guys don't know. So as long as I'm able and feel like doing it, I will continue to
make tools.
And I do appreciate the little compensation I get from the other tool makers that copy
my tooling. That's what gives me the pleasure of inventing some new ideas that we can
all use if the future to make rockets. I sure hate to see this hobby die out.
SLD
SLD
steve kursinsky
Posted 4/10/2010 6:31 AM (#105589 - in reply to #105340)
Subject: Re: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Offline
Ned I really feel the same way about Steve's tooling. I intend to have a full set of the
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Expert
Page 13 of 13
sizes in the UT. Steve signs the bottom of all his tools. I consider it a honor to have and
use them. I sincerely doubt that Steve gets much in the way of royalty checks from the
guy's that copy his tooling. And that is just what they are copies.
----Steve Kursinsky
Smile, everyone will wonder what your up too.
Posts: 1530
Location: Sandusky
Mi
ned
Posted 4/10/2010 7:07 AM (#105590 - in reply to #105589)
Subject: Re: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
Yep, Steve,,and that's saying something coming from you, who has the ability to
machine his own tooling..
And, you and I know that Steve L aint gettin' rich from making the tooling himself..
When I look at one of his tooling sets, and ponder what he gets for them, I wonder how
he can do it for that..
I have 3 new sets on the way..
ned
Expert
Posts: 6874
Edited by ned 4/10/2010 7:08 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/10/2010 8:52 AM (#105603 - in reply to #105365)
Subject: RE: Universal Tooling, Black Powder Motor Spec's
Online
I know we're pretty much on the same page now, Steve.
But if Joe "newbie" Blow hears, "just enough to prevent the rammer from hitting the
divergent portion of the spindle"...he can press a nozzle which only has a 'pointy,
wedge-shaped nozzle throat', which comes to a sharp point which will be instantly
eroded by high-pressure gasses..
There just simply has to be a minimum nozzle throat height, when using a clay nozzle,
which will resist erosion by hot gasses. Quote from Ned
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
With a little common sense at this stage of making rockets, this is where that jam line is
so important. So if a person drops his rammer down onto the spindle with a rocket tube
inside the sleeve and marks his rammer at the jam point on the sleeve, and then
removes the sleeve and tube from the spindle and then drop the rammer down onto the
spindle once again and note where this jam point is, you can clearly see just how much
clay it will take to make a good nozzle. Raise the rammer to where the rammer should
be after the clay is add, and this should be above the jam line that yo put on the
rammer, and when the clay is pressed in, that line should be approximately 3/16-1/4
inch above the sleeve. Very simple observation to make before you even begin to start
pressing. I still do this today before I begin pressing a nozzle or a first incremnet in a
rocket.
So if you are using my tooling or someone else's, this is no big decision of how much
clay to use on that nozzle. If you drop in an increment and start pressing and that jam
line you put on the rammer gets close to the tip of the sleeve before you put full
pressure on the rammer, you know you need more clay or comp to complete that
increment from jaming the spindle. It sure ain't rocket science on this one.
SLD
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Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
ned
Posted 4/9/2010 11:23 AM (#105483)
Subject: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This is now the thread dedicated to making whistle motors with the Universal
Tooling.
We'll focus on the fuels first,
then the motor specs.
The whistle motor that Steve spec's for making with the UT is the Long
Winded Screamer.
This motor uses two fuels, a fast one, and a slow one.
Adjusting the amounts of these fuels is the way the motors are dialed in.
Expert
Posts: 6874
(The hot whistle fuel is used as a "Booster Section" in Steve's "Strobe"
motors, "Whistle-Boosted BP" motors, "Whistle Boosted Colored Tail" motors,
and the fuel is also used as a component of the "Hybrid Motor Fuel"...so this
whistle fuel info is pretty important to the construction of all those motors.)
Whistle Mix #2 (fast whistle fuel)
.76 potassium perchlorate
.23 sodium salicylate
.01 red iron oxide
.025 vaseline
+lacquer thinner
Whistle Mix #3 (slower whistle fuel)
.64 potassium perchlorate
.32 sodium benzoate
.01 red iron oxide
.05 vaseline
+lacquer thinner
Here are the posts which lead to Steve detailing his 'making whistle fuel'
method.
There are, of course other variations on this theme of mixing whistle fuel,
including Dan McMurray's method, and the 'baggie' method detailed by a
couple other 'Dans', among others.
These can be mentioned after we get Steve's method set in stone.
______________________________________________
Ned:
My 1-1/2 minute version of melting vasoline and adding lacquer thinner still
beats that one. And what I like about lacquer thinner, in probably 3/4 of an
hour in the sun, you have already to press whistle fuel that is crispy dry with
no odor.
SLD
______________________________________
From ned:
Steve, can you elaborate on Your method of mixing the whistle fuels you
use?
Let's take your Whistle Mix #2 Fuel, for example:
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.76 potassium perchlorate
.23 socium salicylate
.01 red iron oxide
.025 vaseline
lacquer thinner
Can you elaborate on what quantity of fuel you mix, how fine you get your
chems, how you mix them prior to wetting them, how you prepare the
solvent mixture, how you add it, and how you dry it, please.
(Once again, I know there are plenty of variations on this theme that many
of us have personally developed,,and they work. But, for right now, I'm
trying to pick Steve's brain on this. Once we get his methods clearly
understood, I'll get the Whistle/Long-Winded-Screamer thread going, with his
fuel details, and with opportunities for others to note their unique methods.)
Thanks,
ned
----__________________________________________________
From Steve:
Steve, can you elaborate on Your method of mixing the whistle fuels you
use?
Let's take your Whistle Mix #2 Fuel, for example:
Ned:
I can tell you never owned a video of any of the rocket seminars that I gave
at any of the conventions otherwise you wouldn't have to ask this question. I
think I demenstrated my method in everyone of them.
For a 1 kilo batch:
Weigh out 760 grms. of p. perc and then in the same container add 10 grms.
of either red iron oxide or copper oxichloride for the catalist. Then run this
through a gravy strainer 2 times. Then run in through a 40 mesh screen 2
times.
Weigh out 230 grms. of sodium salicylate. With the first comp already
screened and in a large, plastic bowl, screen the saly through the gravy
strainer into the bowl of perc-iron oxide mix. Once all this is in the large
mixing bowl, I don my face shield, leather gauntlets, and cover my arms. I
then sift all the chems together. What I used to do is place the whole batch in
the ballmill and mill it for about 15 minutes. This is an optional step and don't
reccomend this to anyone unless you have an area to safely do this without
attracting a lot of attention if something goes wrong.
The second method is to run everything through the gravy strainer 3 times,
as gently as you can. A static spark during this process is the only thing I
worry about. Then make a depression in the comp inside the bowl.
Weigh out 25 grams of vasoline and place this in a container and melt it with
a propane torch. I do this away from the mixed comp of course. Then I take
a can of lacquer thinner and carefully pour 1/3 cup full from the can and add
this to the container of melted vasoline, carefully, because it will boil up.
Once it cools slightly, I'm ready to add more. If you would take a full cup and
add it all at once, it probably would not boil up to much because it will cool
much faster. I weighed this all out once. I found that a total of 220 grams of
vasoline and lacquer thinner was enough for a 1 kilo batch of whistle fuel, so
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go figure how much of each is in the container.
Pour this into the bowl of whistle fuel and start mixing. I found that using a
pastry mixer with the 5 metal knife type teeth to use in this step of mixing up
the fuel works the fastest to incorporate the mix. During this time, you may
see little granuals of white specks in the mix. This is either perc or most likely
sodium salicylate. I use a 1-3/4 inch diamater dowel pin to smear the mix
until I don't see any more of these white specks in the mix. It may dry out
some while this mixing process is going on so add more lacquer thinner at
any time. If you add enough at the start, you shouldn't have to add any
during the mixing process.
Once all these white specks are gone, then I pound down the mix into a nice
firm layer in the bottom of the bowl and get ready to run it through my ricing
screen. I have a stainless screen with window sized openings, stretched over
a coffee can and held on with a big hose clamp. I proceed to slice out of the
bowl some of the comp and push it through the screen. I make 4 piles on 2
sheets of heavy kraft backed by a piece of cardboard, and tape down the
edges of the kraft to the cardboard. This kraft is about the size of a piece of
news paper. Then I spread out these 4 piles on each as evenly as I can and
place the paper in the sun and hold down the corners.
And here's a step I never used to do but since I started combining whistle
with BP, I like to watch the whistle pretty close at this point so it doesn't dry
out to much. On dry days with low humidity, it only takes no more that 10-12
mimutes before the fuel is dry enough but still damp, and I run it through the
gravy strainer once more, which has a slightly larges mesh size that the
ricing screen. After this, the fuel goes back onto the kraft paper and is fully
dried. I like to leave the fuel dry for at least 1 hour in this condition.
With this second screening, you eliminate all the bigger chunks that you find
in the screened mix if you only screen it once. And it maks for a better
homoginous mix when you blend it with the BP.
There is a big difference between ricing benzoate and salicylate. Benzoate
needs more lacquer thinner than saly when screening if you want it to go
through the screen as easy. Only experience will help with this problem, and
only experience just making it will give you a better feeling for making it this
way.
This whole process takes about 1 hour to do. So here you have a scale to go
by.
I just talked to Steve K. and he told me he was making 15 lb. batches in a 5
gallon pail. He was using a drywall mixer to mix his fuel up. Get the ben. or
saly wet first along with the catalist, then slowly dump in the oxidiser and
keep mixing. This sounds like a good way to mix large batches, but beware of
any sparks from a drill. If you get the stuff pretty wet in the pail, then you
will have problems getting it just right before you can rice it. I haven't
figured out this yet, but making big batches and doing it only once appeals to
me. Of course, this method should appeal to you if one rocket takes 5 lbs. of
fuel to make. Enough for 3 rockets.
I also would like to say that I only make whistle or any other fuels on sunny
days where it can dry with the heat of the sun beating down on it. It really
gets crusty dry this way, even if the humidity is fairly high, but have noticed
the difference between low and high humidity drying days.
After the fuel is completely dry, I hope, then it's stored in a coffee can with a
dessicant bag. It probably wouldn't hurt to place it in a zip lock inside the
can, along with the dessicant bag. At least your can wouldn't rust out then.
2 more hours of my time, Ned. I'm thinking about charging you for that extra
set of tooling.
SLD
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Edited by ned 4/9/2010 11:25 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human
freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to
choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/9/2010 11:30 AM (#105484 - in reply to #105483)
Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Ned:
I spent 2 hours writing that on another thread.
SLD
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
ned
Posted 4/9/2010 12:21 PM (#105496 - in reply to #105483)
Subject: RE: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Here's a sketch of a Long Winded Screamer Rocket Motor, made with the
Universal Tooling.
In his handout, Steve spec's:
Expert
Posts: 6874
"4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2.
Then increments of Whistle Fuel #3 all the way to the top of the rocket tube,
but leaving enough empty space to grab the motor with a vice-grip (with a
solid drift in the tube-end) to pull it off the spindle. In the increments above
the spindle, I always add flake Titanium in each scoop before I press it in."
Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the
force decreased on the increments around the spindle.
In the sketch, I've shown an optional clay bulkhead in the empty tube-end,
and also the option of using a longer tube, which would require the longer
rammers and tube-support, too.
4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table
below, will bring that fuel up to aproximately the halfway point on the
spindle. Adjusting this amount of the hot fuel is how the power of these
motors is dialed in.
Adjusting the total amount of the slow whistle fuel is how the total flight time
of the motors is dialed in.
http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf
Edited by ned 4/9/2010 12:37 PM
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(LWS Sketch.jpg)
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---------------LWS Sketch.jpg (88KB - 0 downloads)
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human
freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to
choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Lee C. Bussy
Posted 4/9/2010 12:39 PM (#105503 - in reply to #105483)
Subject: RE: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Offline
I thought I might add that the first increment of whistle needs a little
more ... I think I've either been doing 12 grams or a full double increment
(14g) on the first one to avoid binding (1# motor).
Location: Kansas
City, MO
----Lee C. Bussy
How to include pictures in posts:
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704
Dan Thames
Posted 4/9/2010 12:40 PM (#105504 - in reply to #105483)
Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Offline
Ned, the image shows TI could be pressed around the upper part of the
spindle. If the drift is very loose on the spindle and the IT is small, this may
never cause a problem. But everyone, be careful in doing this. Make sure
everything is plenty loose so the TI don't get pinched.
Expert
Posts: 1882
Location: Arkansas
Dan T.
ned
Posted 4/9/2010 12:53 PM (#105510 - in reply to #105504)
Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Thanks for noticing that, Dan...
I made a note on the sketch of that point, in addition to Steve's note about
only adding Ti to the increments above the spindle.
Expert
Posts: 6874
(Dan, can you post the link to your vid of mixing whistle fuel using the baggie
method, so we can all see that option, too..)
And, Lee,,that's a great point, too, if one is using Steve's tooling which gets
snug on the spindle about one-increment high.
ned
Edited by ned 4/9/2010 12:56 PM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human
freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to
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choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Dan Thames
Posted 4/9/2010 2:19 PM (#105523 - in reply to #105483)
Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Offline
Ned,
Expert
I think Gene is the one that directed me to using a bag. I use Dan
McMurray's method, sort of, but in a bag.
Posts: 1882
Location: Arkansas
http://www.pyrobin.com/files/making-na-benz-whistle-fuel.wmv
If it not clear in the video, I like minerial oil with NaBenz and vaseline and
lacquer thinner with NaSal. Those combinations seem to rice the best and I
can't tell any performance difference.
Dan T.
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 8:44 AM (#105686 - in reply to #105496)
Subject: RE: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This is a note concerning the height of the first whistle fuel section in these
rockets.
4 increments is spec'd for that section, with the size of the increments noted
in the Increment Table.
This is a clarification from Steve concerning approximately how high on the
spindle that fuel section comes in his motor.
Expert
Posts: 6874
"This was a mental mistake that I made concerning all rockets made, using
the Hybrid-Universal tooling.
It should have read, that the amount of whistle taken up inside the rocket is
closer to 1/3rd of the spindle length instead of 2/3rds the length. I'm sorry
about this mistake. If you press in 4 increments of the proper amount of
whistle, you will see that it only takes up about one third of the spindle.
SLD"
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human
freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to
choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
ned
Posted 4/12/2010 8:00 AM (#105786 - in reply to #105686)
Subject: RE: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Has anyone dialed down a whistle fuel which will work as the only fuel in a
whistle motor made on the Universal Tooling?
Expert
Posts: 6874
One of the advantages, of course, of using the two fuels in the Long Winded
Screamer, is that the proportions of the two fuel increments can be adjusted
to vary the power of the motor, just short of CATOing,,,and then the delay
can be changed by varying the total amount of the slow fuel that is used
above the spindle.
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I'm just wondering if a slowed fuel could be developed which could be the
only fuel used with the UT in a whistle motor, more along the lines of a
standard, short spindle motor.
ned
Edited by ned 4/12/2010 8:07 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human
freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to
choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
dapaki
Posted 4/12/2010 9:29 AM (#105796 - in reply to #105483)
Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Offline
Why not do a 50/50 mix of the two fuels? Is that even a possibility?
Dave
Expert
Posts: 1825
Location: Up Nort
Lee C. Bussy
Offline
Location: Kansas
City, MO
Posted 4/12/2010 10:09 AM (#105804 - in reply to #105796)
Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
dapaki - 4/12/2010 9:29 AM Why not do a 50/50 mix of the two fuels? Is that even a
possibility? Dave
It would be a reasonable place to start ... but that still means you have to
make two. Making one is better if all you ever do is U/H motors. If you do
make dedicated whistle motors then you'd still want both types around. A
single fuel would be easier for new guys, but I think I would still prefer two
fuels in a LWS. The Saly/Cu whistle is faster than all get-out but the sound
suffers, the Benz/FeO is the real howler and you can enjoy it after the initial
jump.
I know! (Steve will think this is sacrilege) Make the "hot" fuel with KBenz
and see if that's not perfect for "the one ring" approach.
----Lee C. Bussy
How to include pictures in posts:
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dapaki
Posted 4/12/2010 10:48 AM (#105811 - in reply to #105483)
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Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Offline
Couple of things:
Expert
Can I lift a heavy payload to 400' on one of the whistle motors, why or why
not.
Posts: 1825
Location: Up Nort
Will the extra resistance to lift from a heavy payload increase the likelihood
of CATO?
Dave
steve laduke
Posted 4/12/2010 10:57 AM (#105814 - in reply to #105523)
Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
If it not clear in the video, I like minerial oil with NaBenz and vaseline and
lacquer thinner with NaSal. Those combinations seem to rice the best and I
can't tell any performance difference.
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
Dan, I simply cannot see how it is possible that your saly whistle performs no
different that you beny whistle does. Something is wrong with the saly that
you are using. Either it is not true airmilled or it is some awfully shitty
salicylate. Have you ever tried a different saly from a different supplier or a
different batch? Maybe what you think is saly is actually beny?
SLD
Edited by steve laduke 4/12/2010 11:02 AM
Lee C. Bussy
Offline
Location: Kansas
City, MO
Posted 4/12/2010 10:57 AM (#105815 - in reply to #105811)
Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
dapaki - 4/12/2010 10:48 AM Couple of things: Can I lift a heavy payload to 400' on
one of the whistle motors, why or why not. Will the extra resistance to lift from a heavy
payload increase the likelihood of CATO? Dave
Depends on what you think is heavy. A typical 3" shell (can or round) will go
almost too high on a 1# whistle.
There is some debate over whether (or how) a heavier load causes a CATO.
If you have a well tuned motor that's not on the ragged edge anyway, you
should be fine. A rocket with a header will actually fly higher (within
reason). The impulse is so short, having some inertia helps keep it coasting
in the right direction.
----Lee C. Bussy
How to include pictures in posts:
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10704
steve laduke
Posted 4/12/2010 11:25 AM (#105818 - in reply to #105804)
Subject: Re: Whistle Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Guys:
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Posts: 1119
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I have taken a dedicated strobe spindle in the 7/8 inch diamater, which is
about 3-1/2 inch long and pressed up a motor using saly fuel made with a
ratio of 64-32-1-5 and it flew just great. How much longer of a core before
those rockets will cato, I don't know. Using the same spindle and benzoate
with the same ratio, the rocket hardly flys. That's the difference between
benzoate and salicylate. So if you change the ratio with benzoate, and up the
ratio of oxidiser to maybe a 70-30-1-4, I think that rocket will fly darn good
all the way up the spindle. You would have to tweak the fuel but I know it
would work with benzoate. One could only try salicylate at a ratio of 64-32-15 and see what would happen.
All these fuels were bound with lacquer thinner and vasoline. Using oil and
acetone woud further slow down this fuel and I have never tried this
approach but it is worth a try.
Potassium and sodium benzoate are about the same power, in my opinion, so
it would be no sin to try P. ben. in this experiment.
The catalist that I used in my experiments was iron oxide. And I found out,
and something I didn't mention during my work with LWS motors, the rocket
would cato on occasions if I used copper oxichloride in the benzoate, slower
fuel. So I think this should be mentioned in the instructions on making them.
With a LWS rocket, use only iron oxide in the benzoate mix. Using c oxi chlor.
makes the benzoate fuel burn to fast. A very impoortant step in making up
the benzoate fuel for these rockets.
I have tried blending benzoate and salicylate whistle fuels together and see
what would happen to the sound and power. One could do this, but I see no
advantage to gaining anything that can't be done by just changing the ratio
of a single fuel itself. So I was rather unimpressed with these experiments.
Maybe stretching the salicylate would be one advantage to blending the fuels.
SLD
Edited by steve laduke 4/12/2010 11:35 AM
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Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling
ned
Posted 4/9/2010 5:35 PM (#105540)
Subject: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This is now the thread dedicated to making strobe motors with the Universal Tooling.
Steve LaDuke's methods are detailed first, and individual users' methods can be added
as useful notes.
The fuels used are:
Expert
Posts: 6874
Whistle Mix #2 (fast whistle fuel)
.76 potassium perchlorate
.23 sodium salicylate
.01 red iron oxide
.025 vaseline
+ lacquer thinner
Strobe Mix #4
.60 ammonium perchlorate
.25 magnalium 50/50, -200 mesh
.15 barium sulfate
.05 potassium dichromate
.02 vaseline
+lacquer thinner
Steve's methods of making these fuels are detailed in the "Whistle Motors made with
Universal Tooling" thread.
Here's a sketch of a Strobe Motor, made with the Universal Tooling.
In his handout, Steve spec's:
"4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2.
Then increments of Strobe Fuel to 1/8" above the tip of the spindle.
Then finish with 2-3 more increments of the Whistle Fuel #2 for a bulkhead."
It is important to note that the first increment of the Whistle Fuel must be large enough
to prevent the first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing its do-not-pass line.
It is also very important to note that the strobe fuel must not be pinched between a
solid rammer and the tip of the spindle. That could set the motor off in the press. Safety
shields on presses that are being used to press whistle and/or strobe fuels are a Very
Good Idea.
Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force
decreased on the increments around the spindle.
In the sketch, I've shown an optional clay bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and also the
option of using a longer tube, which would require the longer rammers and tubesupport, too.
4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table below, will
bring that fuel up to approximately the halfway point on the spindle. Adjusting this
amount of the hot whistle fuel is how the power of these motors is dialed in.
It is important to not press too much strobe fuel above the tip of the spindle. Strobe fuel
burns slowly, and too much of it can result in rockets which touch down still burning.
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Adjusting the amount of the whistle fuel above the strobe fuel is how the total flight time
of the motors is dialed in. Other delay fuels such as colored fuel can be used in that top
fuel section, but less of any slower burning delay fuel should be used.
http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf
Edited by ned 4/9/2010 5:57 PM
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(strobe motor sketch.jpg)
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----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
ned
Posted 4/9/2010 5:38 PM (#105542 - in reply to #105540)
Subject: RE: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Steve has added the note to the strobe fuel that there is some current conjecture that
increasing the amount of vaseline in the mix will increase the strobe rate as the fuel
burns.
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Expert
Posts: 6874
ned
Posted 4/9/2010 8:49 PM (#105572 - in reply to #105542)
Subject: RE: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This thread;
"Any advice on how to handle Dichromate"
should be a must-read in this strobe thread:
Expert
Posts: 6874
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11648&post...
ned
Edited by ned 4/9/2010 8:51 PM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/10/2010 9:41 AM (#105612 - in reply to #105540)
Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Ned:
Yer gettin the knack of maken um.
I might add here that tweaking the fuel burn rate of the strobe, or strobe rate frequence
can be fun in itself. I think Joel on another thread gave some interesting information on
how to do that. Most importantly, don't make up a kilo batch and expect it to work
perfectly. You may end up with strobe fuel that will only work in a good strobe pot and
not a rocket.
Start with 50 grm. batches or 100 grm. amounts and press up a rocket and see how it
performs. I can pinch a little pyramid of the comp between my thumb and 2 fingers and
let it dry for awhile and test burn it to see what I have. It's more difficult to do this with
strobe comp that has been made with vasoline and lacquer thinner because it doesn't
stick together like the old NC bound stuff did but I still try and gather a tiny blob
together and test burn it with a match for ignition. Don't use a torch because that
provides too much heat to test something so small. If it's going to burn, and you use a
torch to ignight it, of course it will burn, but you will never see how much heat and
flame that takes to begin that process, so use a stick match. I can tell right away what it
will sound like in a strobe rocket, as far as the strobe frenquency goes. Intensity I
cannot determine.
But start with the basic fromula and work from there. You may need something finer
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
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that -200 mesh added to the basic mix to get the frequency to increase. All I had at one
time was -200 mesh so I ballmilled it to get a finer mesh and then blended this with the
-200 mesh until I got what I wanted. But you have to start somewhere first.
SLD
ned
Posted 4/10/2010 7:02 PM (#105656 - in reply to #105612)
Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Steve brought up a good point in a different thread,
which ought to be repeated in this strobe motor thread,
and emphasized for newbies to all of this.
Expert
Posts: 6874
We may get tempted to try different delay fuels above the strobe fuel in these motors,
and there is indeed some creativity to be experimented with in that area.
But, don't ever press a KNO3-containing fuel directly above the strobe fuel, especially if
the motor is going to be stored for more than a few hours.
KNO3 in contact with ammonium perchlorate for any amount of time will produce very
hygroscopic ammonium nitrate, and will create a soggy layer between the two fuels.
If you want to put a KNO3-charcoal delay on the top of these rockets, they must either
be flown immediately, or better-yet, put a layer of whistle or color comp between those
two fuels. Stronium nitrate and barium nitrate do not exhibit the problem with
ammonium perchlorate to nearly the degree that potassium nitrate does.
Just a heads-up.
ned
Edited by ned 4/10/2010 7:04 PM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Dan Thames
Posted 4/10/2010 7:43 PM (#105660 - in reply to #105540)
Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling
Offline
For the strobe newbie:
Some of my first strobes came back down to the ground. Part if it was too slow a strobe
rate. Part if it was the lack of lift performance and the strobe column height over the
spindle being a little much. Ned mentioned the 1/8 as the place to start and total delay
could be governed with the strobe above the spindle (all true) . As I learned more from
experience, the strobe height above the spindle was increased to give me more height
before the burst. I was a little timid about increasing this height but found that with a
really good flying rocket, you can increase this amount more than just a little bit. But
you have to be careful or they will return to earth.
Expert
Posts: 1882
Location: Arkansas
Dan T.
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 8:43 AM (#105685 - in reply to #105660)
Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This is a note concerning the height of the first whistle fuel section in these rockets.
4 increments is spec'd for that section, with the size of the increments noted in the
Increment Table.
This is a clarification from Steve concerning approximately how high on the spindle that
fuel section comes in his motor.
Expert
Posts: 6874
"This was a mental mistake that I made concerning all rockets made, using the HybridUniversal tooling.
It should have read, that the amount of whistle taken up inside the rocket is closer to
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1/3rd of the spindle length instead of 2/3rds the length. I'm sorry about this mistake. If
you press in 4 increments of the proper amount of whistle, you will see that it only takes
up about one third of the spindle.
SLD"
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Joel Harmon
Posted 4/12/2010 9:19 AM (#105790 - in reply to #105685)
Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
I can second having to get rid of extra strobe mix that doesn't work well in rockets. I
made up a kilo batch once that didn't work well and ended up using it in 5" bottom shots
instead of using flash.
Elite Veteran
Posts: 619
I used a booster of 2 micron Mg and potassium perchlorate in a flash bag tied to the end
of the fuse. I poured in the strobe mix so it was full and glued the bottom disk on. I
spiked and pasted the bottom shot like normal and then made the shell out of it. The
bottom shot definitely detonated, as there is no way that the five or so grams of Mg
flash could have been that loud! It was at least as loud as flash, just a little more
expensive.
Also, as Steve L mentioned, I did notice that increasing the vaseline causes the
frequency of the strobe rate to go up. So, slowly adding in very small amounts of
vaseline would be a feasible way of increasing the strobe rate frequency of your rockets
or pots.
Joel
steve laduke
Posted 4/12/2010 11:41 AM (#105822 - in reply to #105540)
Subject: Re: Strobe Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Joel:
I haven't tried this method yet of increasing the strobe frequency, but I am.
The best way to use up shitty strobe mix is in a gerb. I used up a whole coffee can full
this way. What a waste, Joel.
SLD
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
Edited by steve laduke 4/12/2010 11:46 AM
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Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
ned
Posted 4/10/2010 7:40 AM (#105592)
Subject: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
A note from Steve in the main UT thread:
Expert
Posts: 6874
"One other rocket that was not mentioned, Ned, is the whistle assisted-BP rocket.
Here, you start out the same way as the other nozzless rockets are made.
4 increments of #2 hot whistle.
Then finish the rocket to at least 1 inch above the spindle with your BP fuel. For the BP
fuel to be used in these rockets, I would suggest a fuel, such as the #1 on the sheet. Or,
probably a slower burning BP with a larger amount of coarse charcoal added into the mix
to increase the charcoal tail. It doesn't really matter too much on how fast this BP burns,
because the whistle fuel in this rocket is what gives this rocket it's kick off the launch
pad. Once the whistle fuel is burned up and gone, which takes about 1/2 second, what's
left is the unburned core of the BP still burning. So if you can add some extra, coarse
and intermediate size charcoal, this would really make a nice tail. This rocket will take a
medium size payload. It is possible to add an extra increment of #2 whistle to give it a
more powerful jump on takeoff, but 4 increments seems plenty already."
Black Powder #1 Fuel
75 KNO3
15 airfloat charcoal
10 80-mesh charcoal
15 36-40-mesh charcoal
10 sulfur
5 dextrin
+water/alcohol
Steve's spec's for preparing this fuel are contained in the "Universal Tooling, Black
Powder Motor Spec's" thread:
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11629&posts=23...
"I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total
weight of the fuel with a mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the
sun until it starts to dry out and get less sticky, and before it's too dry, I screen it again
while it is still damp. Once more through the screen now, and you have a pretty fine
mesh that mixes real good with the whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The
last few batches I made, I used SGRS for the binder and used only 3%. This gives about
the same hardness as 5% dextrin."
The Whistle Fuel is:
Whistle Mix #2
76 potassium perchlorate
23 sodium salicylate
1 red iron oxide
2.5 vaseline
lacquer thinner
Steve's spec's for preparing this fuel are included in the "Whistle Motors made with
Universal Tooling" thread:
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11640&posts=7&...
Increment sizes are described here:
http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf
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It is important to note that the first increment of the Whistle Fuel must be large enough
to prevent the first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing its do-not-pass line.
Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force
decreased on the increments around the spindle.
Here is a sketch of a Whistle-Assisted Black-Powder Motor made with the Universal
Tooling.
In the sketch, I've shown an optional clay bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and also the
option of using a longer tube, which would require the longer rammers and tubesupport, too.
4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table below, will
bring that fuel up to approximately the halfway point on the spindle. Adjusting this
amount of the hot whistle fuel is how the power of these motors is dialed in.
Adjusting the amount of the BP fuel above the strobe fuel is how the total flight time of
the motors is dialed in.
Edited by ned 4/10/2010 7:44 AM
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(whistle-assisted BP motor sketch.jpg)
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----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/10/2010 8:16 AM (#105599 - in reply to #105592)
Subject: RE: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Adjusting the amount of the BP fuel above the strobe fuel is how the total flight time of
the motors is dialed in From Ned's post
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
Ned--- I don't know how that squeaked in but I never use BP above strobe mix without
a tiny barrier of whistle inbetween it. And we are talking about a BP-whistle assist rocket
here right now. No Strobe in these fuels. Just a brain fart, I suppose. Otherwise the
concept is correct.
4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table below, will
bring that fuel up to approximately the halfway point on the spindle. From Ned's post
Ned: I don't think the whistle takes up 1/2 of the spindle length with that much fuel
pressed in. It's more like 2/3 of the spindle length. I've never measured it unless you
pressed one up and did measure it.
In any case, if the rocket catos on the first one pressed, add only 3 increments to reduce
the whistle fuel, then finish the rocket with BP.
SLD
ned
Posted 4/10/2010 8:45 AM (#105601 - in reply to #105599)
Subject: RE: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Adjusting the amount of the BP fuel above the strobe fuel is how the total flight time of
the motors is dialed in From Ned's post
Expert
Posts: 6874
Ned--- I don't know how that squeaked in but I never use BP above strobe mix without
a tiny barrier of whistle inbetween it. And we are talking about a BP-whistle assist rocket
here right now. No Strobe in these fuels. Just a brain fart, I suppose. Otherwise the
concept is correct.
4 increments of Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table below, will
bring that fuel up to approximately the halfway point on the spindle. From Ned's post
Ned: I don't think the whistle takes up 1/2 of the spindle length with that much fuel
pressed in. It's more like 2/3 of the spindle length. I've never measured it unless you
pressed one up and did measure it.
In any case, if the rocket catos on the first one pressed, add only 3 increments to reduce
the whistle fuel, then finish the rocket with BP.
SLD
___________________________________
OOps, I messed up on that first line, Steve.
It should read "adjusting the amount of fuel above the WHISTLE fuel..."
It's too late for me to edit that post, so this note will have to suffice in this thread.
Thanks for the note about the height of the total amount of the Whistle fuel.
This was something I was trying to nail down in all these motor threads where the
whistle is used first.
I base that 1/2-spindle-height approximation on an increment around the spindle
pressing up to about 2/3 a tube ID tall.
4 of those pressed increments would be 8/3 tube ID tall, then, approximately, which is
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2.67 Tube ID's.
And you said your 3/4" spindle is 4.2 inches long, which is 5.6 Tube ID's.
2.67 divided by 5.6 is .47, or about 1/2 the spindle height.
So that 1/2-spindle-height is based on your increment recommendations, and the notes
to dial in the motor power by adjusting those first whistle increments take all that into
account.
If you could press 'Your' 4 increments in one of your typical motors, and then measure
the total height of the increments, and express that as a fraction of the total spindle
height, I think that would be really beneficial to rocket-builders using the Universal
Tooling.
Thanks,
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/10/2010 8:57 AM (#105606 - in reply to #105601)
Subject: RE: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
If you could press 'Your' 4 increments in one of your typical motors, and then measure
the total height of the increments, and express that as a fraction of the total spindle
height, I think that would be really beneficial to rocket-builders using the Universal
Tooling.
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
Ned,----You really have me confused on trying to figure out how much whistle to use in
a rocket comming at it from that angle. The way I say it, "4 increments" cannot be any
simpler. And if a guy uses to large of an increment to start with and ends up with a
rocket that will cato, I always say, " then use only 3 increments", this should solve his
problem. But with the increment size that I posted previously, there should be no one
using to large of an increment anymore. Some may find that 4 increments isn't enough.
This I blame on the batch of whistle fuel on how it was made and what was used to wet
it and also the purity of the perc that was used. I use strictly vasoline and lacquer
thinner and anything else can affect the performance.
SLD
Edited by steve laduke 4/10/2010 9:05 AM
ned
Posted 4/10/2010 9:04 AM (#105607 - in reply to #105606)
Subject: RE: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Ned,----You really have me confused on trying to figure out how much whistle to use in
a rocket comming at it from that angle. The way I say it, "4 increments" cannot be any
simpler.
SLD
_______________________________
Expert
Posts: 6874
Steve,,
You're a machinist.
If I come to you and say, "Steve, please make a spindle for me. Use your little finger as
an increment, and make the spindle that big in diameter, and two increments long" that
would be pretty 'simple'.
But, you are a machinist. You deal in precision. You'd say, "Hold on, ned.. My
'increment' little finger may be a little bigger or smaller than your 'increment' little
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finger.. and how big around is your increment..?"
(but I'd bet yours is bigger than mine...
You have frankly admitted that your increment sizes are pretty much measured by
eyeball, and you only recently broke down and weighed a few of them. Your 'increments'
are not a precise way to spec these amounts for the rest of us.
We are 'rocket makers,,,machinists..' trying to follow your lead on using this tooling
you've developed. So, all we are asking for is a little precision. The precise way to spec
the amount of fuel in that first whistle fuel section, is to spec it by 'height on the
spindle'.
Then when I press my whistle fuel to that height,,and the motor needs a little more
snort after testing it,,I can press the whistle X higher in the next motor. Or if the test
motor CATO's, I'll press the next motor with whistle X lower in it..
So, as I TRY to work up these spec's for future users of the UT, I really am trying to nail
down some useful, precise specifications which can easily be duplicated,,and adjusted.
In my mind, in this case, "simple" and "precise" are not the same thing. We need some
precision.
ned
Edited by ned 4/10/2010 9:09 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Lee C. Bussy
Posted 4/10/2010 9:09 AM (#105608 - in reply to #105592)
Subject: RE: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Offline
Yeah Steve, I know for a fact I've asked you questions and you've given me similar
answers.
Some of us just have to take things apart like that in order that they make
sense. It's a curse most times, but I really do think that for some of us it makes a more
thorough understanding of what it is we are attempting to accomplish.
Location: Kansas
City, MO
When I started I began by pressing even single gram increments to see how they
"stacked up". Now, I do use shortcuts but I do so knowing that there are parts of my
process where precision matters, and parts where it matters not as much. It's one thing
to be told, another to have learned it.
Just my $0.02.
----Lee C. Bussy
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steve laduke
Posted 4/10/2010 9:12 AM (#105609 - in reply to #105592)
Subject: Re: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
One other thing, Ned. If everyone doesn't use 9000 psi loading pressure like I do, this
will throw off your height measurement. I know some guys won't use 9000 psi loading
pressure on these rockets like I do. Multiply 4 increments times four with only 6500 psi
loading pressure, and these "precision increments" and hardly precision anymore. The
Elite Veteran
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height of that column will be slightly heigher. So 4 increments is closer that the height of
the column.
SLD
ned
Posted 4/10/2010 9:18 AM (#105610 - in reply to #105609)
Subject: Re: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
One other thing, Ned. If everyone doesn't use 9000 psi loading pressure like I do, this
will throw off your height measurement. I know some guys won't use 9000 psi loading
pressure on these rockets like I do. Multiply 4 increments times four with only 6500 psi
loading pressure, and these "precision increments" and hardly precision anymore. The
height of that column will be slightly heigher. So 4 increments is closer that the height of
the column.
SLD
__________________________
Expert
Posts: 6874
That's why I'm trying to 'pick your brain', Steve, and write specific guidelines based on
what you've been teaching.
You continually say, "Don't change something, and expect the same results."
I've spec'd your 9000 psi loading pressure, unadjusted for increments around the
spindle, in each motor spec thread.
If someone changes something, which we'll all do as expermenting 'scientists' trying to
reinvent wheels, then we're on our own as far as the results..
And, you and I know that even if we follow your spec's to a T, other variables can creep
in like individual techniques, chemical quality, humidity,,,and the alignment of Mars with
Uranus... so each of us has to develop a feel for all of this, and learn how to experiment
and adjust accordingly.
But, you're giving us a good head start with your groundbreaking R&D, and I'm just
trying to clearly state where you think is a good place to start if we want to follow your
lead.
And, I think your last statement, "Multiply 4 increments times four with only 6500 psi
loading pressure, and these "precision increments" and hardly precision anymore. The
height of that column will be slightly heigher. So 4 increments is closer that the height of
the column" brings up a very interesting concept.
Is the total weight of the fuel used what is critical to power and potential CATO's, or is it
the total pressed height and the resulting exposed surface area inside the core of the
motor?
I personally lean toward exposed surface area, the total height, being the most critical
aspect, followed by the density of the fuel (which is determined by the pressing force).
So, in my practice, I focus on height/exposed-area more than I do 'weight' of the fuel.
Also, Tube ID, which we know can vary a little, can vary the height a certain weight of
fuel will press up to, so focusing on the height rather than the weight seems more
precise from that angle, to me, too.
ned
Edited by ned 4/10/2010 9:31 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/10/2010 10:24 AM (#105619 - in reply to #105610)
Subject: Re: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Is the total weight of the fuel used what is critical to power and potential CATO's, or is it
the total pressed height and the resulting exposed surface area inside the core of the
motor?
Elite Veteran
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Ned---- these two aspects are so closely tied together that one determines the other. If
you add more increments, the height will of course be higher. So if you add more height
to the column of fuel, that will definately bring you rocket closer to a cato. And I
definately know that when a certain whistle fuel is pressed into a rocket using a lower
loading pressure, it will cato every time. If that same rocket is pressed to double the
amount of loading pressure, it will fly.
I proved this during my mini whistle seminar that I did during one of the conventions. I
pressed up a whistle rocket with a 1-3/8 in long spindle using 4500 psi loading pressure
and it catoed every time. When I went to 8666 psi loading pressure, they flew perfectly
every time. So what happened to that column of whistle when I increased the loading
pressure to 9000 psi. I know it got shorter, but I didn't change the amount of fuel that
was used.
So in reality, you could say both of your statements are correct for the reasons of
catoing. And for this reason, when someone tells me his strobe rockets are catoing, I
ask him what loading pressure are you pressing them to? This has been the most critical
cause of strobe rockets catoing as far as I've determined. Not using enough loading
pressure on the fuel. So if you are pressing up a 3/4 inch strobe rocket and you measure
out 24 grams of fuel for the whistle fuel in that rocket, and press each one of those 6
grams of fuel in each increment seperately, I don't care how much loading pressure you
use. But if the rocket catos, I will tell you to increase the loading pressure. And with 24
grams of whistle, I know you have the same amount of whistle in your rocket that I use
in mine.
So in my mind, there is no easier way to determine the amount of whistle that should be
used is by using the increment chart that you showed in an earlier post on increment
size. So the height of all the increments pressed in will not equal the same from one
persons rocket to the other if the same loading pressure is not kept constant.
If we were sitting around a roundtable discussion, you could probably tell my voice
getting louder right now.
But, you're giving us a good head start with your groundbreaking R&D, and I'm just
trying to clearly state where you think is a good place to start if we want to follow your
lead. quote from Ned
I really don't consider my work "ground breaking". All the rockets I've made so far with
this tooling is far from the ground breaking stage at this point. There's nothing left to do
to perfect them. They all fly great.
SLD
Dan Thames
Posted 4/10/2010 10:34 AM (#105622 - in reply to #105592)
Subject: Re: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Offline
When I first started making rockets I was not part of a club, nor did I have any mentor.
Something I read or maybe it was on an AFN video, but the stress on using small
increments was the one thing that would make or break the success of your rockets.
One of my early rockets split open and you could see the increments pressed into the
soft tube that I was using. The way the top part of the increment compressed more that
the lower part of the increment really explained to me how important small increments
are. I err on the side of making them too small. That may be one reason most of my
rockets work and don't blow up.
Expert
Posts: 1882
Location: Arkansas
What I guess I am trying to say is that the exact amount of an increment is not very
critical if it is on the small side anyway. When I make really hot motors, I tend to back
off even more, just to be more careful about good fuel grain formation.
Just my 2 cents.
Dan T.
steve laduke
Posted 4/11/2010 8:20 AM (#105678 - in reply to #105599)
Subject: RE: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
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Posts: 1119
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Ned: I don't think the whistle takes up 1/2 of the spindle length with that much fuel
pressed in. It's more like 2/3 of the spindle length. I've never measured it unless you
pressed one up and did measure it.
In any case, if the rocket catos on the first one pressed, add only 3 increments to reduce
the whistle
This was a big mistake on my part. The whistle fuel column that is pressed into the core
of any of these nozzless rockets only takes up about 1/3 of the core, not 2/3rds.
I will pos tthis on a seperate post in this thread.
SLD
Lee C. Bussy
Offline
Location: Kansas
City, MO
Posted 4/11/2010 8:31 AM (#105680 - in reply to #105622)
Subject: Re: Whistle-Assisted BP Motors made with Universal Tooling
Dan Thames - 4/10/2010 10:34 AM When I first started making rockets I was not part of a club, nor
did I have any mentor. Something I read or maybe it was on an AFN video, but the stress on using
small increments was the one thing that would make or break the success of your rockets. One of
my early rockets split open and you could see the increments pressed into the soft tube that I was
using. The way the top part of the increment compressed more that the lower part of the increment
really explained to me how important small increments are.
Dan. last night I screwed up and taught Dan Bryan a lesson along those lines. The first
increment on my first whistle of the season was too high, and my tube squashed down.
I showed Dan how the tube was now shorter, and when we took the clamshell off you
could feel the roughness on the outside of the tube. I didn't give it another thought till I
was examining the video of the one and only failure last night: that rocket. The core
part of the grain ruptured and left the delay portion intact and burning. Very clear
where the mistake was made (videos being edited now).
Edited by Lee C. Bussy 4/11/2010 8:32 AM
----Lee C. Bussy
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Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling
ned
Posted 4/9/2010 5:56 PM (#105544)
Subject: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
A note from Steve in a different thread:
Expert
Posts: 6874
"Colored tailed rocket-- no nozzle--4 increments of #2 whistle, finish rocket with the
colored fuel to about 1 inch above the spindle. You could go 1/2 inch with the original
color, then change the colored fuel to something else to about 1 inch total above the
spindle. No clay plug above the colored fuel."
*Note, the amount of fuel above the spindle will be dependent on the size of the motor
that is being made. Steve's notes are based on 3/4" ID motors. The total flight time of
the motor is dialed in by adjusting this height of the colored fuel.
And from his Universal Tooling handout:
"For the colored-tailed rocket, press in three increments of #2 whistle mix, then press
the color of your choice to about 1 inch above the spindle. Most colored fuels burn not
too fast, so 1-inch above the spindle is a starting point. Vary the amount above the
spindle to get the required delay. If the colored fuel burns real slow, just add an extra
increment of whistle to the rocket before starting the colored fuel."
It's important to note that the first increment of the Whistle Fuel must be large enough
to prevent the first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing the 'do-not-pass'
line.
Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force
decreased on the increments around the spindle.
In the sketch below, of a motor made to Steve's specs, I've shown an optional clay
bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and the option of using a longer tube, which would
require the longer rammers and tube-support, too.
4 increments of the Whistle Fuel #2, using the increment sizes in the linked table below
will bring that fuel up to approximately the halfway point on the spindle. Adjusting the
amount of the hot whistle fuel is how the power of these motors is dialed in.
http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf
The whistle fuel formula is:
Whistle Mix #2 (fast whistle fuel)
.76 potassium perchlorate
.23 sodium salicylate
.01 red iron oxide
.025 vaseline
+ lacquer thinner
Steve's method of making this fuel is detailed in the "Whistle Motors made with
Universal Tooling" thread.
This article details Dave Stoddard's methods for making colored rocket fuels:
http://skylighter.com/skylighter_info_pages/article.asp?Item=83#roc...
The following is a note from Danny Creagan about his method of making colored fuels
and using them in motors made with the Universal tooling:
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"re: Colored Tail Motors using Universal Spindles
Steve's Universal spindle is a very nice compromise that lends itself to many more
configurations than even Steve says.
One that I was testing at Vinton on the 27th was quite successful. It was a MgAl colored
tailed chuffer rocket pressed on a 'universal like' spindle. I was shooting both green and
red. Since I shoot these all the time, I never thought about recording any of the
launches. However, they were getting very respectable heights. Joel can confirm - we
had a short discussion about how high they were going for such simple motors. This was
the first time I had used a universal spindle with them so I didn't have any cool headers
- just tested six to make sure they would work.
A side effect of using the universal spindle is that it has a good taper so the darn MgAl,
which grabs more narrow spindles, releases its death grip sooner.
Here is the process:
1. Make red, green or yellow MgAl rocket fuel according to the Barr, Stoddard, Steinberg
formulas. Here is my web page about them if you don't have your notes handy:
http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rockets/strontiumrockets....
2. Using the universal spindle, make a 1 I.D. clay nozzle - I use oiled kitty litter.
3. Press one I.D. of 76/23/1 salicylate whistle mix (or 1.5 ID of benzoate mix).
4. Fill to the top of the spindle with the MgAl mix.
5. For delay, use no more than 1.5 I.D. of the MgAl mix. In fact, go less the first time the MgAl is slow burning and you will have a big lawn dart if you put too much delay on
them.
6. Add a nice clay bulkhead - at least 1 I.D.
The whistle is necessary - the modest spindle doesn't have enough burn area to get the
MgAl comps up to speed unless you augment the ignition.
You could probably add a bit more whistle if you wanted a laser on takeoff (or added a
larger header) but the idea behind the MgAl motors is to lift with medium velocity and
chuff a bit on the way up. The above formula seemed to be about right - the motors
were boosted right at first but they were no where near the red line. The mix chuffed a
few times and the motor got its head of steam up and went for the clouds.
Edit: Safety warning - MgAl mix is really a modified colored flash so be very careful. If
you get a stuck spindle or ram - which is easy to do if you don't keep your tooling clean
- cut the motor off before you haul down on the sucker to twist it off."
Edited by ned 4/9/2010 6:22 PM
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(color-tail motor sketch.jpg)
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----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Lee C. Bussy
Offline
Location: Kansas
City, MO
Posted 4/9/2010 6:07 PM (#105545 - in reply to #105544)
Subject: RE: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling
ned - 4/9/2010 5:56 PM The whistle fuel formula is:
Whistle Mix #2 (fast whistle fuel)
.76 potassium perchlorate
.23 sodium salicylate
.01 red gum
.025 vaseline + lacquer thinner
Really?
----Lee C. Bussy
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ned
Posted 4/9/2010 6:20 PM (#105549 - in reply to #105545)
Subject: RE: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
ned - 4/9/2010 5:56 PM The whistle fuel formula is:
Expert
Whistle Mix #2 (fast whistle fuel)
.76 potassium perchlorate
.23 sodium salicylate
.01 red gum
.025 vaseline + lacquer thinner
Posts: 6874
Really?
_______________________________
Wha??? I don't see that... Did you make that up??
Can you tell I'm typing/thinking fast, Lee..?
(thanks for catching that.)
nski
Edited by ned 4/9/2010 6:21 PM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Lee C. Bussy
Posted 4/9/2010 6:39 PM (#105553 - in reply to #105544)
Subject: RE: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling
Offline
I woulda called you and told you but my phone, she is dead!
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Interestingly enough, Andy does use RG and ethanol to rice his fuel.
Location: Kansas
City, MO
----Lee C. Bussy
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Dan Thames
Posted 4/9/2010 7:51 PM (#105560 - in reply to #105544)
Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Being left handed, it is normal for me to do things sort of backwards. Here is my version
with the color on the bottom and the whistle on the upper part of the spindle....topped
off with more red for delay.
Expert
Posts: 1882
Location: Arkansas
http://www.pyrobin.com/files/red-whistle1.wmv
Dan T.
steve laduke
Posted 4/10/2010 10:32 AM (#105621 - in reply to #105560)
Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Dan:
that's a good way to see just how long it takes the core to burn up to the whistle fuel.
There was an earlier thread where some guys were doing this also arsebackwards with
those mixes. I tried it and got those same delayed on takeoff results.
SLD
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
Dan Thames
Posted 4/10/2010 10:42 AM (#105625 - in reply to #105544)
Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Steve,
Expert
I just did that once, to see what would happen.
Posts: 1882
Location: Arkansas
When I was a kid my dad would say, "What did you to THAT for?". My common response
was, "I just wanted to see what would happen". Somehow, my dad just never really
understood what that meant. To him it was just me messing up. He is 80 now. He sees
my rockets and I think he is proud of me, in a way. I think he finially (with me in my
50s) understands that it was in my blood and too deep to beat out of me with a belt or a
tree limb.
Dan T.
ned
Posted 4/10/2010 11:26 AM (#105628 - in reply to #105625)
Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
When I was a kid my dad would say, "What did you to THAT for?". My common response
was, "I just wanted to see what would happen". Somehow, my dad just never really
understood what that meant. To him it was just me messing up. He is 80 now. He sees
my rockets and I think he is proud of me, in a way. I think he finially (with me in my
50s) understands that it was in my blood and too deep to beat out of me with a belt or a
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Expert
Posts: 6874
Page 6 of 6
tree limb.
____________________
Gawd, that all sounds so familiar, Dan..
I'd get 'creative' when assembling a plastic model...and my engineer, West-Pointgraduate-follow-the-damn-instructions,,,Dad (who I love and get along with very nicely
now...) would get so frustrated with my 'sperimenting..
Just my nature,,,,and his...
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/11/2010 7:55 AM (#105676 - in reply to #105544)
Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Guys:
If you've ever been to pgi convention at Wisconsin or Fargo and when the star spangled
banner gets to the verse, "and the rockets red glare", the streaking upward of red tailed
rockets were my version of colored tailed rockets, using my method of colored tailed
rockets. Here, I only use a strobe rocket spindle with 3 increments of whistle and finish
the rocket with the red mag mix that Dave Stoddard came up with. This mix used all
magnesium and not magnalium for the metal content. No nozzle in this rocket. So
making the colored tailed rocket, there is no need to use a nozzle. The whistle fuel in
this rocket is what gives this rocket it's kick on takeoff. And that's where the principal of
the strobe rocket comes from also. Actually, the strobe rocket came first.
SLD
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 8:38 AM (#105683 - in reply to #105676)
Subject: Re: Colored-Tail Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This is a note concerning the height of the first whistle fuel section in these rockets.
4 increments is spec'd for that section, with the size of the increments noted in the
Increment Table.
This is a clarification from Steve concerning approximately how high on the spindle that
fuel section comes in his motor.
Expert
Posts: 6874
"This was a mental mistake that I made concerning all rockets made, using the HybridUniversal tooling.
It should have read, that the amount of whistle taken up inside the rocket is closer to
1/3rd of the spindle length instead of 2/3rds the length. I'm sorry about this mistake. If
you press in 4 increments of the proper amount of whistle, you will see that it only takes
up about one third of the spindle.
SLD"
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
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Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 8:55 AM (#105688)
Subject: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This is the thread dedicated to the discussion of Steve LaDuke's specifications for
making the "Hybrid #1 Motor" with the Universal Rocket Tooling.
Steve's note about making these motors:
Expert
Posts: 6874
" Hybrid motor
This motor has some latitude in how many increments of whistle mix you can use, but
start with four increments first and don't forget your nozzle first. The first increments
consist of:
76-----potassium perchlorate
23----- sodium salicylate
1----- iron oxide
10----- ballmilled charcoal------do this to the charcoal
I've added as many as 7 increments of the whistle mix with the added charcoal before
they would blow. Finish the rocket with a mix of 60---- potassium nitrate 30----charcoal 10 sulfur and 5 parts dextrin. This fuel has to be riced with water and alcohol
before it can be used, the same as the # 1 fuel. You can finish the rocket with this mix
or you can press in a slower fuel such as willow mix also or a color fuel about 1" above
the last increment of rocket fuel. These rockets go so high it won't hurt to have a long
delay built into it. The best ending to have on there rockets it to use willow mix above
the rocket fuel and use a pinch of titanium, atomized in each increment as it is pressed
in to at least 3/4" above the spindle. This gives you the nice titanium tail that hangs in
the air for a while.
"
____________________________________
Steve, I'm assuming this Hybrid #1 Fuel has the same 2.5% vaseline added to it, plus
lacquer thinner, and is prepared the same way that the Whistle Mix #2 is prepared in
this thread:
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11640&posts=8#...
If you could verify that, it'd be great.
And the BP rocket mix you spec, would be prepared the same way as you spec in the
Black Powder Motor spec's:
"I granulate the fuel through a window mesh screen size after adding about 20% total
weight of the fuel with a mixture of 10% alcohol and 90 % water. I set this out in the
sun until it starts to dry out and get less sticky, and before it's too dry, I screen it again
while it is still damp. Once more through the screen now, and you have a pretty fine
mesh that mixes real good with the whistle with no bigger chunks left in the mix. The
last few batches I made, I used SGRS for the binder and used only 3%. This gives about
the same hardness as 5% dextrin."
It is important to note that the nozzle-clay increment must be large enough to prevent
the first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing the 'do-not-pass' line.
Approximate increment sizes are spec'd here:
http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf
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4/12/2010
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Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force
decreased on the increments around the spindle.
A Loading Force Table is here:
http://pyrobin.com/files/force%20needed%20to%20achieve%20loading%20...
In the sketch below, of a motor made to Steve's specs, I've shown an optional clay
bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and the option of using a longer tube, which would
require the longer rammers and tube-support, too.
Here is a sketch of the general layout of this motor:
Edited by ned 4/11/2010 9:24 AM
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(A Hybrid Motor sketch.jpg)
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----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/11/2010 10:55 AM (#105713 - in reply to #105688)
Subject: RE: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This booster fuel in this rocket uses 3 parts vasoline. It should read 76-23-1-3 with
additional 10 parst ballmilled charcaol added altogether before ricing.
Here, the increments added before switching to the 60-30-10-5 BP fuel may very,
depending on the strength or purity of the perc used to make the whistle. I used the
cheap Chinese perc to make all these rockets. If using a stronger perc, one may only be
able to add 6 increments before changing over the the weaker BP of 60-30-10-5.
Whatever you use for perc to make the up the #1 whistle fuel, and this is what I call this
fuel, #1, because it was the first fuel I used to make these rockets with, the nice thing
with these rockets, is it's easy to work up to the maximum number of #1 increments
before they begin to cato. It's also a nice way to make a rocket that can be made very
weak or vary powerfu, depending only on how many increments of #1 mix you use in
the rocket before you change over to the BP formula.
So it doesn't matter what type of perc you use in this booster. To start out with, Make
up both fuels, to begin with. I would like to say at this point, one could use the # 1
formula that is printed on the hand out sheet that comes with the tooling and substitute
this BP fromula in place of the 60-30-10-5 BP fuel. Since both fuels are approximately
the same % in there makeup, they probably could be used in this part of the rocket
anyway. But for this purpose right now, let's just say we will be using 60-30-10-5 BP
made with airfloat charcoal.
Start out with a nozzle in the rocket. Then press in 4 increments of the #1 whistlecharcoal fuel. Then switch over to the BP and finish the rocket to 1 " above the spindle.
Your rocket is complete. I know this rocket will fly without a cato,
Now, to tweak this rocket to it extreme power, keep adding 1 increment of whistle on
each rocket until they begin to cato. This is the easiest way to find out the exact number
of increments of whistle fuel that can be pressed without a cato. I have used 7
increments of the whistle before switchng over to the BP before they began to cato. With
other types of perc available, you may be only able to add 6 increments before switching
over to the BP. It's as simple as that.
With H-U tooling, you can make this rocket to any power you want, up to the most
powerful rocket that can be made for it's size. And here's where you can change the fuel
that I use to make it. Instead of using the 60-30-10-5 BP that I use to make these, one
can change the ratio of BP to anything he wants to use, actually. The faster the BP burns
though, that means that you may not get as many increments of #1 booster fuel in also.
I used a 65-25-10-5 BP above the booster with only 4 increments of the booster, and
this rocket put out 49 lbs. of thrust with a 3/4 inch rocket. So one could probably use
only 1 increment of booster, and finish the rocket will a BP made with a ratio of 70-2010-5 BP. It's possible, but I've never done this. But this is how you can change the burn
ratios with the BP that can be used.
The most unique aspect of the rocket, you can power it up or down to your needs by
just changing the number of increments of the booster fuel. And the tweaked rocket to
give maximum thrust will be the total number of increments of booster that can be
pressed in before they start to cato.
Now, we have a second version of the Hybrid version using this tooling. Here, the BP
version on the handout sheet is the BP that is used to make these rockets. 75-15-15-105. So far, me and another few guys have found that you can blend this BP with the #2
whistle fuel on the sheet, 76-23-1-2.5 or 3 parts vasoline, to a ratio of right around 25
% whistle and 75 parts of this BP and press this all the way to the top and finish the
rockets with 1 increment above the spindle. Then decide what you want for the tail to
finish this rocket off with. Here, use your imagination. This ratio of 25-75, whistle-BP will
vary with each individuals differences in the way the whistle and BP is made up. So you
have to tweak the fuels at this point and find out what works for you.
And this is the only rocket where I use a clay plug above the last increment of fuel. On
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
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most of my hybrid rockets that I made, I only use this extra plug when it's required, and
can't add enough bulkhead fuel to keep it from blowing through on ignition. This is
because that particular rocket needs a very short delay because it will be carrying a
pretty hefty payload, and if I make that entire bulkhead out of burning fuel, the rocket
will probably hit the ground before the heading even goes off. So to augment the
bulkhead for protection of blowthrough, I may only want a 2-3 second delay before the
heading is activated. This amount of fuel will only stick up above the last increment of
fuel that was pressed in for the thrust portion of the rocket around 1/4-1/2 inch above
the last increment. This is where you need more bulkhead in the rocket to keep it from
blowing through so I add at least 3/4 inch of clay bulkhead above the last increment of
fuel that was pressed in. Now I have to make a passfire through this clay plug, and this
hole is pressed with whistle fuel with hand pressure only, using either the same drill that
I used to make the hole with or something slightly smaller. Now, when securing the
payload, which is usually a round ball shell or canister shell, the fuse in this shell is
blackmatch going into the shell. This way there is no extra delay on the heading, once
the rocket burns to this point. The whole delay, right down to the bottom of the passfire
hole is less than 1/2 second before the heading is activated.
I think why some people use a clay plug for the last increment in there rockets is
because of the loading pressure that is used to make the rocket in the first place. I do
know that in most of Ned's rockets, he uses a clay choke as the last increment. Most of
his rocket are not pressed to 9000 psi either, and I can see why he would need one. This
is good practice to use a clay choke when hand ramming or using light loading
pressures, and where a short delay is required. There is no other way to keep that
rocket blowing through and cotoing without that extra strength of the clay holding it
back.
Now with loading pressures around 9000 psi, a much shorter plug of fuel or clay will give
the rocket all the plugging power it needs, so I hardly ever see the need to use one,
especially on my high flying rockets. And of course, these rocket need a long plug of fuel
to begin with to get all the time that I get before the heading activates.
And I am aware on the larger rockets, such as the 4lb. and 6lb. versions, where only a
short dealay is required, here you absolutely need a clay plug to hold in the thrust
pressure that is exerted on the bulkhead.
The only rocket that positively needs no bulkhead is in the Lowg winded screemer. To
make a LWS motor, the finished bulkhead is at least 2 inches long to give it the life of
the rockets name. Why would you need a clay bulkhead on a rocket that is only
endburning anyway. There is hardly any thrust pushing on the foreward end of that
rocket and you simply don't need one. That 2 inches of bulkhead is on a 3/4 inch rocket,
by the way. And nobody can argue that point with me. If you put a clay bulkhead in a
LWS rocket, with an already 1-1/2 to 2" bulkhead of fuel in it already, you are wasting
your time.
SLD
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 11:05 AM (#105714 - in reply to #105713)
Subject: RE: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Thanks for all the clarifications, Steve.
I'm going to copy and paste your Hybrid #2 info into that thread.
Expert
Posts: 6874
I would add that an additional reason I personally like to use a clay bulkhead, besides
preventing fuel blowing through the top under pressure, is when a small flash section is
used above the motor as a heading, to contain the flash really well when it goes off.
If I'm filling the hollow end of a motor with flash, to create a report heading, and all the
fuel has just about burned out when the flame hits the flash, and there's no clay
bulkhead between those fuel fragments and the flash, the flash is not well contained on
that bottom end.
But, with a clay bulkhead, that flash is well contained except for the small passfire hole,
and I like that containment.
But, of course, to each their own.
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
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choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/11/2010 11:13 AM (#105716 - in reply to #105688)
Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Ned:
I use the same method when testing rockets, just a 1/2 teaspoon of flash in the top of
the rocket tube, without a clay bulkhead and they work good also. I think I said once
before, we have to get you up to date on making good flash or better, anyway. You're
not doing something right.
SLD
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 11:16 AM (#105718 - in reply to #105716)
Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Yeah,,,I'm just a "newbie" at all this, Steve...
But maybe there's hope for me someday..
I might just catch on sometime...
Expert
Posts: 6874
nski
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/11/2010 11:18 AM (#105719 - in reply to #105688)
Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Ned:
I would have put that smiley face on the post, but I don't know how.
SLD
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 11:29 AM (#105721 - in reply to #105719)
Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Just hit a "colon" or "semi-colon" followed by a "right parenthesis", Steve.
Expert
Or you can hit one of the emoticons on the left hand side of this post-commposition
page...
Posts: 6874
(but I know it's always good-natured between us... even when it starts to feel a little
tense as the two 'bull-heads' square off..
Best,
nski
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(now that this project is 'done', I gotta go spread some topsoil and grass seed..)
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
VintageRacer
Online
Posted 4/12/2010 10:13 AM (#105806 - in reply to #105718)
Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling
ned - 4/11/2010 11:16 AM
Yeah,,,I'm just a "newbie" at all this, Steve...
But maybe there's hope for me someday..
I might just catch on sometime...
Regular
nski
Posts: 121
Location: KC, MO
I see I need to put on my boots here.... it's gett'n kind of deep.
dapaki
Posted 4/12/2010 10:51 AM (#105812 - in reply to #105688)
Subject: Re: Hybrid #1 Motors made with Universal Tooling
Offline
As they say, its easier to attract flies (SLD) with Strohs then vinegar.
Expert
Posts: 1825
Location: Up Nort
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Hybrid #2 Motors made with Universal Tooling
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 9:25 AM (#105697)
Subject: Hybrid #2 Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This is the thread dedicated to the discussion of Steve LaDuke's specifications for
making the Hybrid #2 Motor with the Universal Rocket Tooling.
Steve's note about making these motors:
Expert
Posts: 6874
"The hybrid fuel used for this rocket can be changed to what I call my hybrid #2 fuel.
This is a blend of whistle mix and black pwd. to a ratio of 65-35 by weight with the 65
being whistle mix. The blk. pwd. ratio itself is the # 1 mix and the whistle mix is the # 2
mix. I'm not sure just how much of the blend can be used in the rocket, but so far, I've
used it all the way up to about 1 inch from the top of the spindle and then finished the
rocket with 60-30-10-2.5 blk. pwd. without a cato. I'm sure you can change the ratio to
be able to use it all the way to the top and 1 increment above the spindle and then use
something else for the delay above it. This is a fairly new twist to this fuel for this
spindle and I haven't finished expermenting with it yet. This same fuel, # 2 hybrid works
excellent in end burn rockets also. All the coarse charcoal gives the rocket a nice
charcoal tail."
________________________________________
The Black Powder #1 Fuel mix is detailed in this thread:
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11654&posts=12...
The Whistle Mix #2 Fuel mix is also detailed in that thread.
It is important to note that the nozzle-clay increment must be large enough to prevent
the first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing the 'do-not-pass' line.
Approximate increment sizes are spec'd here:
http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf
Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force
decreased on the increments around the spindle.
A Loading Force Table is here:
http://pyrobin.com/files/force%20needed%20to%20achieve%20loading%20...
In the sketch below, of a motor made to Steve's specs, I've shown an optional clay
bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and the option of using a longer tube, which would
require the longer rammers and tube-support, too.
Here is a sketch of the general layout of this motor:
http://www.passfire.com/forum/forums/printer-friendly.asp?tid=11670&mid=
4/12/2010
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(B Hybrid Motor sketch.jpg)
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----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 11:08 AM (#105715 - in reply to #105697)
Subject: RE: Hybrid #2 Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This is a further note of clarification from Steve about these Hybrid #2 Motors:
Expert
Posts: 6874
"Now, we have a second version of the Hybrid version using this tooling. Here, the BP
version on the handout sheet is the BP that is used to make these rockets. 75-15-15-105. So far, me and another few guys have found that you can blend this BP with the #2
whistle fuel on the sheet, 76-23-1-2.5 or 3 parts vasoline, to a ratio of right around 25
% whistle and 75 parts of this BP and press this all the way to the top and finish the
rockets with 1 increment above the spindle. Then decide what you want for the tail to
finish this rocket off with. Here, use your imagination. This ratio of 25-75, whistle-BP will
vary with each individuals differences in the way the whistle and BP is made up. So you
have to tweak the fuels at this point and find out what works for you.
And this is the only rocket where I use a clay plug above the last increment of fuel. On
most of my hybrid rockets that I made, I only use this extra plug when it's required, and
can't add enough bulkhead fuel to keep it from blowing through on ignition. This is
because that particular rocket needs a very short delay because it will be carrying a
pretty hefty payload, and if I make that entire bulkhead out of burning fuel, the rocket
will probably hit the ground before the heading even goes off. So to augment the
bulkhead for protection of blowthrough, I may only want a 2-3 second delay before the
heading is activated. This amount of fuel will only stick up above the last increment of
fuel that was pressed in for the thrust portion of the rocket around 1/4-1/2 inch above
the last increment. This is where you need more bulkhead in the rocket to keep it from
blowing through so I add at least 3/4 inch of clay bulkhead above the last increment of
fuel that was pressed in. Now I have to make a passfire through this clay plug, and this
hole is pressed with whistle fuel with hand pressure only, using either the same drill that
I used to make the hole with or something slightly smaller. Now, when securing the
payload, which is usually a round ball shell or canister shell, the fuse in this shell is
blackmatch going into the shell. This way there is no extra delay on the heading, once
the rocket burns to this point. The whole delay, right down to the bottom of the passfire
hole is less than 1/2 second before the heading is activated. "
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
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Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 9:46 AM (#105699)
Subject: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This is the thread dedicated to making Nozzleless Motors per Steve LaDuke's
specifications, using the Universal Rocket Tooling.
This motor differes from the Hybrid #2 motor in that it does not use a clay nozzle, and
the fuel mixtures are a bit different.
Expert
Posts: 6874
Steve's note about this motor:
"Nozzless rocket---- press the entire rocket with the #1 BP mixed with #2 whistle mix. A
ratio of 50% whistle and 50% BP--- by weight. Press the entire rocket with one
increment above the spindle with this mix, then change to a different fuel. This fuel can
be a colored mix, maybe just more straight whistle to give a whistling effect, maybe
some willow tailed fuel, anything your imagination can muster. Just be careful of how far
you go above the spindle because your rocket will be coasting at this point.
Consideration of the heading is important. The heavier the payload, less altitude. "
_____________________________________
The #1 BP fuel, and the #2 Whistle Mix are detailed in this thread:
http://passfire.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11654&posts=12...
The power of this motor can be dialed in by varying the proportions of the two fuels that
are mixed together to create the thrust fuel.
It is important to note that the first fuel increment must be large enough to prevent the
first rammer from binding on the spindle, not passing the 'do-not-pass' line.
Approximate increment sizes are spec'd here:
http://pyrobin.com/files/increment%20sizes.pdf
Steve's typical loading pressure is 9000 psi on the comp, and without the force
decreased on the increments around the spindle.
A Loading Force Table is here:
http://pyrobin.com/files/force%20needed%20to%20achieve%20loading%20...
In the sketch below, of a motor made to Steve's specs, I've shown an optional clay
bulkhead in the empty tube-end, and the option of using a longer tube, which would
require the longer rammers and tube-support, too.
Here is a sketch of the general layout of this motor:
Edited by ned 4/11/2010 9:54 AM
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(Nozzleless Motor sketch.jpg)
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----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 9:58 AM (#105702 - in reply to #105699)
Subject: RE: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
This is a response from Danny Creagan when I asked him if he'd ever tried an "All BPFuel Nozzless Motor" using the Universal Tooling:
Expert
Posts: 6874
"It works but it is a bit mild. Its main use to me is to have a short impulse motor with
almost certain reliability. Darned easy to do. Just get the hottest BP mill dust you can
make, add 2% oil to keep down the dust, press to a few thousand pounds on the UT
spindle (I usually press to 4K but you can get away with much less). Keep the
increments to less than 1 I.D. Add 1.5 I.D. delay using the same fuel as you pressed
around the spindle. Dust lightly with Ti sprinkles between increments after you clear the
spindle. For a 3/4 motor keep the header light - festival ball shells are good. Heavier
loads will need shorter delays and bulkheads.
I might add that, given a reliable pressing, I don't think you can CATO the motor with
just straight BP. I've augmented the BP with more than 30% hot whistle - mixed in and it still flew. You can light it at the top of the core for a quicker get away. The motors
store well, travel well, and turn into a six pack and a roast beef sandwich at midnight.
I made my camera lifter with a UT spindle on a 6 pound motor. Hot BP. It lifted the
camera, housing and parachute to about 800-1000 feet. The delay was short on purpose
so it would have puffed it up had I added more delay.
Dan"
__________________________________
This presents another option to try when making nozzleless motors using the Universal
Tooling.
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/12/2010 10:05 AM (#105803 - in reply to #105702)
Subject: RE: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Darned easy to do. Just get the hottest BP mill dust you can make, add 2% oil to keep
down the dust, press to a few thousand pounds on the UT spindle From Danny C.
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
Danny, why make up a batch of fast burning BP, then slow it down with adding in oil?
It certainly won't be the fastest burning BP with oil in it anymore. To make the fastest
BP you can make, just rice it with water with 10% alcohol. And this explains why these
rockets work with just 4000 or less psi loading pressure. It's a weaker BP with oil in it.
Using the water-alcohol technique will give you faster burning BP in my opinion, and
then better performance also.
SLD
ned
Posted 4/12/2010 10:10 AM (#105805 - in reply to #105803)
Subject: RE: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Steve, if I wanted to make the fastest/hottest granulated BP I could, I'd use good/hot
charcoal, mill the heck out of the fuel, and then granulate it using only denatured
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alchohol and no binder (ideally it'd be pressed without granulation,,but it'd be mighty
messy trying that).
IMO, adding any water during granulation starts to recrystalize the KNO3, defeating
some of what was accomplished during the milling operation.
It would be an interesting exercise to see what's the best nozzleless motor we can each
make using the Universal Tooling and BP-only fuel,,no whistle fuel..or other higherpowered fuels.
We'd need a fast-response load-cell test-stand and some computer software, similar to
the computer-test-stands Lloyd, Tony, and some others are using.
ned
Edited by ned 4/12/2010 10:11 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/12/2010 10:18 AM (#105807 - in reply to #105699)
Subject: Re: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Ned:
I agree with you on the fastest burning BP. Only, this is the way I make it burn the
fastest that I can. It would be a true way to test concisively which of the two binding
methods would work best. I elect Gary Sweat to conduct those tests with his setup that
he uses. And on a note, water is cheaper that alcohol and red gum.
SLD
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
ned
Posted 4/12/2010 11:39 AM (#105820 - in reply to #105807)
Subject: Re: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
I think another important point to the inclusion of the wax that Dan uses,,or the oil
that,,,,Dan uses,,,Steve,
is the binding power of that phlegmatizer.
In these BP-fueled, nozzleless motors, there's probably something to be said for an
ingredient like the wax or oil, which will hold the fuel grain together pretty solidly.
Standard BP fuel, even pressed under high pressures, does not produce a super-solid
grain. It can be crumbled between the fingers, and may not work the best in a
nozzleless, without the wax or oil..
I would guess that the vaseline in your whistle fuel, when it's mixed with the BP fuel in
your Hybrid fuel, sort of integrates throughout the whole fuel grain under high pressure,
and accomplishes what the wax or oil is accomplishing in the Dans' fuels.
nski
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Expert
Posts: 6874
steve laduke
Posted 4/12/2010 11:58 AM (#105823 - in reply to #105820)
Subject: Re: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Standard BP fuel, even pressed under high pressures, does not produce a super-solid
grain. It can be crumbled between the fingers, and may not work the best in a
nozzleless, without the wax or oil..
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
Ned:
I almost spilled my coffee when I read this statement. Just let me say this. Cut open an
Estes rocket motor and examine the grain of fuel found inside. You need a hammer to
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shatter it. With ourtype of BP that is used for fuel, it may not look the same as the Estes
fuel, but I dare say that the grain is quite solid. Did you ever press up a comet using dry
fuel in a solid sleeve that can handle 10,000 psi loading pressure? It may suprise you.
If I make up a nozzless BP motor, I'm surely going to use 9000 psi loading pressure on
it also without any oil in the mix and get a slight edge over one that has oil.
But then again, you never use 9000 psi loading pressure on your rockets either. Your
grain will be slightly softer than mine.
SLD
Edited by steve laduke 4/12/2010 12:01 PM
ned
Posted 4/12/2010 12:05 PM (#105824 - in reply to #105823)
Subject: Re: Nozzless Motors made with Universal Tooling
Online
Did you ever press up a comet using dry fuel in a solid sleeve that can handle 10,000 psi
loading pressure? It may suprise you.
_______________________________
Expert
Posts: 6874
Just the other day, Steve, I pressed up some of the granulated BP-Motor fuel, using
your formula and granulated/dried, in a 1" comet pump, under 9000 psi on the
composition.
I wanted to see how much pressure it took to get it pressed until it was 'dead'... (that
occurred at about 7500 psi on the comp.)
It did press into a solid-looking comet/grain, but I was surprised at how easily it
crumbled between my fingers.
I don't doubt that a real, granulated BP like Goex will press into a nice hard grain, as in
the Estes motors..
I just have my doubts about being able to duplicate that with our BP fuels, since they've
not been pucked and corned.
We might get a dry-pressed fuel grain which might hold up under gentle handling,
though.
I'm just hypothesizing that one of the motivations for the wax/oil usage by the Dans, is
the nice, solid fuel grain that is produced using those phlegmatizers.
nski
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to
choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
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Charts for Universal Rocket Tooling Threads
Lee C. Bussy
Posted 4/11/2010 7:27 PM (#105763)
Subject: Charts for Universal Rocket Tooling Threads
Offline
Ned asked me to format these as tables and post them, here they are:
Force Needed to Achieve Loading Pressures on Composition
Location: Kansas
City, MO
Tube Size /
Force
7500 psi
5625 psi
9000 psi
6750 psi
1/2"
1500
1100
1750
1300
5/8"
2300
1700
2750
2050
3/4"
3300
2500
3950
2950
7/8"
4500
3400
5400
4050
1"
5900
4400
7050
5300
1-1/4"
9200
6900
11050
8300
1-1/2"
13250
9950
15900
11950






Column 2 is 7500 psi on the composition
Column 3 is 75% of that pressure for reduced psi around spindle
Column 4 is 9000 psi on the composition
Column 5 is 75% of that pressure for reduced psi around spindle
Forces listed in table indicate number of pounds of force required to create specific pressure on
composition. This force is what a PtoF gauge would read.
Some numbers have been rounded off for convenience.
Increment Sizing
Increment Whistle/Strobe Whistle/Strobe BP
Tube
BP
Volume
Size /
Increment Increment
Increment
Increment
Increment in3
Weight
Volume
Weight
Volume
1/2"
.07
2g / .05 oz
Heaping 1/4 tsp
1.5g / .05 oz Flat 1/2 tsp
5/8"
.13
4g / .15 oz
Heaping 1/2 tsp
3g / .1 oz
Heaping 1/2
tsp
3/4"
.22
7g / .25 oz
Heaping tsp
5g / .2 oz
Round tsp
7/8"
.35
11g / .4 oz
Heaping 1/2 Tbsp
8g / .3 oz
Heaping 1/2
Tbsp
1"
.53
17g / .6 oz
Heaping Tbsp
13g / .45 oz
Heaping Tbsp
1-1/4"
1.03
32g / 1.1 oz
Heaping 1/8 c
24g / .85 oz
Heaping 1/8 c
1-1/2"
1.77
56g / 2 oz
Round 1/4 c
42g / 1.5 oz
Flat 1/3 c



Approximate starting values
Based on pressed increments = 2/3 Tube ID tall around spindle, ½ Tube ID tall above spindle
Based on pressed fuel densities:
 Whistle/Strobe = 30 grams/cubic inch
 BP fuel = 22 grams/cubic inch
----Lee C. Bussy
How to include pictures in posts:
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Lee C. Bussy
Posted 4/12/2010 9:16 AM (#105789 - in reply to #105763)
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Subject: RE: Charts for Universal Rocket Tooling Threads
Offline
Information transcribed by Ned from Steve LaDuke re: Increment Sizes:
Increment Size Info from Steve LaDuke
Location: Kansas
City, MO
Tube Size /
Increment
Whistle
Increment
Weight
Whistle
BP Increment
Increment Size Weight
1/2"
3.5g / .12 oz
Heaping 1/4 tsp
5/8"
4.5g / .16 oz
Slightly Rounded 1/2
tsp
3/4"
6.5g / .23 oz
Slightly Rounded tsp
7/8"
8.5g / .3 oz
Special Spoon
1"
10.5g / .37 oz
Heaping Special Spoon
2.5g / .09 oz
4g / .14 oz
----Lee C. Bussy
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Universal Tooling Rocket Motors, advantages and
capabilities
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 10:11 AM (#105704)
Subject: Universal Tooling Rocket Motors, advantages and capabilities
Online
So,
as we peruse the complete list of motors which can be made with
the Universal Tooling,
what are the unique features of each type of motor?
Expert
Posts: 6874
Traditional-type BP motors
(not the heaviest lifters, but I love the traditional Whoosh of the
motor ascending, along with the nice, graceful spark trail)
Whistle Motors, Long-Winded Screamers
(nothing quite like a whistle motor taking off, rapid ascent, longarching whistle, unique effect, good lifting power available.)
Strobe Motor
(Man, I love strobers. They hop into the air with the whistle
boost,,then the loud popping and bright flashing as they fly,,hard to
not pay attention to.)
Whistle Assisted BP motors
(increased lifting capability, but with a traditional BP spark trail)
Colored Tailed Motors
(After the impressive whistle-boosted ascent, a bright red or green
flare arching across the sky is very cool..)
Hybrid #1 Motors
Hybrid #2 Motors
Nozzleless Motors
Edited by ned 4/11/2010 10:19 AM
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the
human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of
circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
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Endburner Motors made with Hybrid #2 Fuel
ned
Posted 4/11/2010 10:23 AM (#105708)
Subject: Endburner Motors made with Hybrid #2 Fuel
Online
Steve mentions in his notes that the Hybrid #2 fuel can be used in
his high-powered, long-flight version of the endburner motor.
Expert
Posts: 6874
While this is not made with the Universal Tooling, but with
endburner tooling instead, it might make sense to get some details
on this motor.
Then, with the Universal Tooling, and with endburner tooling, just
about every type of motor can be made.
Steve, this endburner version would seem pretty simple.
Are you using the same 65/35 fuel mix ratio that is spec'd in the
Hybrid #2 tutorial?
What ratio of nozzle aperture to motor ID are you using?
Thanks,
ned
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the
human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of
circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
steve laduke
Posted 4/11/2010 11:52 AM (#105725 - in reply to #105708)
Subject: RE: Endburner Motors made with Hybrid #2 Fuel
Online
Hybrid fuel for endburners:
Elite Veteran
60-% whistle----76-23-1-2.5
40% BP. 75-15-15-10-5---- 1 of the 15's of charcoal is ballmilled for
12 hours
This is by weight.
Blend this together and press your rockets. Leave enough space in
the tube to add a delay section using a delay formula, which can be
anything that doesn't burn very fast.
Posts: 1119
The ratio of nozzle opening is around 1/5th. the diamater of the
tube.
This is what I use on all the endburners I make.
1-1/2" diamater----.342
1-1/4" " ----.250
1" -----------------.220
7/8"----------------.170
3/4"----------------.160
5/8" ---------------.125
1/2" ---------------.100
SLD
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ned
Posted 4/11/2010 12:08 PM (#105727 - in reply to #105725)
Subject: RE: Endburner Motors made with Hybrid #2 Fuel
Online
That's great, Steve.
Are these the motors of yours which just seem to keep flying,,higher
and higher,,,forever?
How much payload can they carry?
n
----"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the
human freedoms—to choose one's attitude in any given set of
circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Viktor Frankl
Expert
Posts: 6874
steve laduke
Posted 4/12/2010 9:26 AM (#105794 - in reply to #105708)
Subject: Re: Endburner Motors made with Hybrid #2 Fuel
Online
Due to restrictions on time yesterday, I will elaborate a little more
on endburn rockets.
The endburn rocket is probably my favorite to make because you
don't need an 8" or a 6" long tube to start with. I've made them
using the remains of an end of a tube that normally would be
tossed. A 1-1/2 inch long tube is all that is needed to make one of
these rockets. Not much fuel either. And it is my favorite to make
because I can make one up so quickly, just to satisfy my pyro fix for
the moment.
At the convention last year, That's all I had. 25 endburners. The
motors were 4-1/2 inches long, 3/4" diamater. They were pressed
up with #2 hybrid fuel, using 9000 psi loading pressure with at least
1 inch of willow formula pressed above the hybrid fuel. I had some
400 mesh, atomized aluminum added to the fuel that gave a nice,
long, and somewhat brighter tail than what you would get with just
straight willow fuel. And few motors had Chysantumim of Mystery
delay with atomized ti added which really gives a nice bright, long
tail.
And the endburn rocket is the only rocket that can change it's tail
while it's asscending. Here, and what I call a "Stop", you press in a
very short increment of a colored tail or a different formulation of BP
that actually makes the rocket sound like it stoped burning, because
the thrust of this fuel is mimimal during it's burn. And you can add
as many a five of these stops, as long as the rocket is made long
enough to accomodate them. Arocket that is around 6 inches long
can easily accomodate 4 of these "stops", and you could squeeze in
one more. This short increment only takes up about 1/16 of an inch
in the rocket and slightly more, depending on how fast the fuel that
you are using to make it. Once the thrust fuel reaches this "stop",
the rocket starts to coast, and before it leans over to far and slows
own to much, fire reaches the thrust fuel again, and begins to
accelerate once again. In each stop, one could use a different color
to achieve an interesting effect as the rocket speeds upward. If one
uses to much of this stop in each increment, the rocket will slow
down too much and lean over to far, and when the thrust fuel finally
begins to burn again, you will have a horizontal flying rocket.
It's important to press at least 3 increment of thrust fuel before you
Elite Veteran
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begin to add any stops to the rocket. You want the rocket to get
going pretty fast before it hits one of these stops, because thrust
stops and the rocket begins to coast. If the rocket isn't going pretty
fast already, it will lean over very quickly. So it's important to use a
good, very energetic fuel to start out with, using the # 2 hybrid fuel.
The 60-40, whistle-BP mix would be the starting point. If the rocket
catos, you are not using enough loading pressure, remember, 9000
psi LP on these rockets, or, the fuel is simply to hot. But I have
never had this happen, even when the perc I was using was Swedish
perc to make the whistle fuel.
I have yet not had a rocket burn through the side wall of the tube,
even with rockets 8 inches long. This can only be accompolished
using New England tubes.
An endburn rocket does not need a thick wall tube. A 1/8" thick wall
works best, in my opinion. I have 3/4 " and 7/8" thin wall tubes and
these work very well for me.
Payload on these rockets is rather small as compared to a core
burner rocket. I have lifted some medium load sizes, but a heavy
payload is not reccomended.
For those of you that are so inclined to guess how much a 7/8 ID
endburn rocket can lift, the peak thrust that was measured on a test
device made be a very competent electrical engineer and now a
machinest-tool maker, we tested a 7/8 inch ID rocket that had 1
stop pressed into the rocket, it measured 8.2 lbs. on the first thrust
increments for 1.5econds,then the stop, which thrust dropped to 0,
and then on the second thrust increments, the thrust went to 12.5
lbs and dropped to 10.4 lbs. after one second, and that finished the
burn time on the rocket.
I think the reason for the higher thrust on the second increments
after the stop, the opening on the nozzle slightly coated shut with
the burn from the stop. Once the #2 hybrid fuel started up again,
this smaller opening created more pressure inside the chamber, and
once it burned for a few 10ths, of a second, that coating eroded off
before all the fuel was consumed. In that one second of burn time,
the thrust only dropped to 10.4 lbs., which was still higher than the
first peak thrust of the first increments of 8.2 lbs.
One other note, these motors make very good drivers for
gerendolas. But I would suggest using no more that 10% whistle
added to the BP if you are going to make them cantaining any
whistle at all. At the Gillett convention, I had a Gerry that totaly flew
apart where I had very securely mounted 4 of these fully cranked up
motors. If you do use a fully cranked up driver, then make sure the
frame is doubly strong to prevent this from happening, and once you
are finished, brace the frame again. I had one driver come off that
frame that flew horizontally from the outfield where it was launced,
directly over the crowd, and just before it hit the building behind the
grandstands, it activated it's heading. Pretty scairy.
SLD
Edited by steve laduke 4/12/2010 9:47 AM
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