>
>
81
81
Röportaj
The Islamic Fadhila Party’s MP Yakubi
met with ORSAM experts in Baghdad
İslami Fazilet Partisi Milletvekili Kerim El
Yakubi, Bağdat’ta ORSAM uzmanlarıyla
görüştü
Interview
FADILA’S YAKUBI:
“BUILDING FEDERALISM IN IRAQ SHOULD PASS THROUGH STAGES”
The Islamic Fadhila Party’s MP Karim Al Yakubi elaborated on Turkey-Iraq relations, the parliamentary
elections, Fadhila’s point of view about the federalism in Iraq and socio-economic conditions in southern
Iraq. Al Yakubi emphazised that building federalism in Iraq should pass through stages.
FAZİLET PARTİSİ MİLLETVEKİLİ
“IRAK’TA FEDERALİZMİ TEDRİCEN İNŞA ETMELİYİZ”
İslami Fazilet Partisi Milletvekili Kerim El Yakubi, Türkiye-Irak ilişkileri, parlamento seçimleri, Fazilet
Partisi’nin federal sisteme bakışı ve Irak’ın güneyindeki sosyo-ekonomik koşullara ilişkin değerlendirmelerde bulundu. Yakubi, Irak’ta federalizmi tedricen inşa etmeleri gerektiğini söyledi.
Ortadoğu Analiz
Mart’10 Cilt 2 - Sayı 15
>
82
Röportaj
The role of the Turkish government and the Turkish people has generally
been supportive of Iraqis. They didn’t intervene, interfere negatively in
Iraq’s affairs. They provided some support and assistance to the Iraqi
people, to the Iraqi government.
ORSAM: First, we would like to ask about the
Basra region. What was the turbulence in the
Basra region during the Iran-Iraq war? And
after that, how did the uprising in 1991 affect
the Basra region?
Actually, it was due to the strategic position or
location of Basra. It faces the Arab Gulf and it
is also on the border with Iran. When Saddam’s
former regime started their war against Iran in
1980, of course the largest military operations
center was Basra. The other military operations
centers wee located along the border which is
more than one thousand two hundred kilometers. We considered the war an act of aggression
against one of our Islamic neighbor countries.
But of course under the Saddam regime people
were oppressed and they didn’t allow any opinions to be expressed. The regime was supported
by big foreign powers, including some of the
Gulf countries who supported Saddam. And the
Americans also supported Saddam. I remember
Rumsfeld visiting Iraq and meeting Saddam in
that period. It was a destructive war. The victims
of both nations were actually the people. It lasted for eight years. And Saddam didn’t come out
with any results from it. And it looked like Saddam’s psychological concept or ideologies were
never satisfied unless he was at war. So peace
didn’t last more than a year, and then we saw him
occupying Kuwait. It was a neighboring country
and I believe you have enough knowledge about
the aggression of Saddam and his regime against
that country. In spite of Kuwait being his primary supporter during his war against Iran. But
the Iraqi people in general refused such an act
of aggression, an invasion by Saddam considered
to be aggression against a neighboring country.
And even the Iraqi military headed off on that
mission under the threats and the inticentralation of the regime. Even when the US and coalition forces came to liberate Kuwait they found
no resistance from the Iraqi army. And so after
the withdrawal of the Iraqi army from Kuwait
the Iraqi people took that opportunity and the
weakness of the regime and international society’s rejection of that regime and it was considered that the regime violated the human rights
and insulted the humans and citizens of Iraq. So
for all the suffering and oppression of the Iraqi
people under that regime and the weakness that
the regime faced during that time people started
a big uprising in all the provinces, the southern
and the northern ones. And the revolution actually succeeded. The people managed to control
all the institutions, and they started to run all
their affairs. At that time they hoped to get help
and support from the coalition forces to stop
Saddam and prevent him from attacking those
provinces. We thought that the Americans were
going to do what they did with the Kurdish people in Kurdistan. We expected that they were going to do the same with us. We didn’t want much
of them, just to block the military forces of Saddam, his airplanes and artillery. But they even
allowed him to withdraw all of his forces from
Kuwait and turn them against the people, the civilians to oppress the revolution. They met in the
southern provinces. The American forces stood
there just watching, they didn’t do anything.
Why? Saddam’s forces were brutally bombing
houses and the Iraqi people. After a period of
time they got back their normal dominance and
controlled the majority of the areas and the cities because, you know, ordinary citizens didn’t
have enough weapons, just simple weapons to
Ortadoğu Analiz
Mart’10 Cilt 2 - Sayı 15
>
Röportaj
defend themselves. But they had their helicopters, their fighters, their heavy artillery. Those
American soldiers did not object to Saddam’s
regime, so Saddam’s forces returned and again
controlled the southern provinces by force,
brutality and inticentralation. It was a great
tragedy. They killed a lot of people, executed
a lot of people and they did what they liked.
So the nineties represented a period of major
suffering for the Iraqi people. First, there was
the international blockade or the siege against
Iraq which was imposed because of his invasion of Kuwait. Then there was the Saddam
regime’s oppression of the Iraqi people. So the
Iraqi people were under oppression, in poverty
and hunger in many places. Until 2003 when
American forces decided to enter Iraq again,
decided to occupy Iraq. It wasn’t done by
agreement with the Iraqi people or in coordination with them. So when the American forces entered Iraq they didn’t resist much because
the Iraqi people were already rejecting Saddam
Hussein. This is why they didn’t defend the regime. The American forces took control and
what happened, happened. This is a very big issue if you wanted to discuss it in details, but I
have tried to be brief.
What do you think about relations between
Turkey and Iraq since the collapse of the
Saddam regime?
Actually, we look at relations between Turkey
and Iraq positively. The role of the Turkish
government and the Turkish people has generally been supportive of Iraqis. They didn’t
intervene, interfere negatively in Iraq’s affairs.
They provided some support and assistance to
the Iraqi people, to the Iraqi government. Their
position is special, compared to the positions
of the other neighboring countries. Of course,
none of the relations with any of the neighboring countries can be completely free of problems, sticking points or observations, for example, Turkey’s relations with the Kurdistan
region and the presence of the PKK there. And
actually ever since this problem started we
have supported the Turkish side and elimination
of the PKK. We consider them a terrorist organization. We won’t allow Iraqi soil to be a base for
aggressive operations against neighboring countries. We don’t wish to see the PKK on our land.
The other problem was perhaps the Turkish side,
which didn’t see solutions to this until now. It has
a big influence on the situation in our central and
southern provinces as well. This is directly linked
to the water resources problem. Turkey is the
country where the rivers start. We are the county
where the rivers end. This is an ongoing problem,
and I am one of the people who have been trying
to be involved in it.
What do you think of Turkey’s attitude towards
the Iraqi Shiites?
Generally, we don’t see any negative behavior
by the Turkish government directed specifically
against the Shiites of Iraq. We consider Turkey in
general to be a government and people who are
Islamic moderates, not extremists. There is no Al
Qaeda there. Those are all positive elements that
can increase or encourage more relations between
the two sides. If we didn’t have the problem of the
water resources I guess there would be no other
problems between the two sides. And we see that
such a problem is not based on sectarianism. It is
the kind of a problem which is a mix of politics
and economics.
What was the main message of the Iraqi people
to the Fadhila Party in the provincial elections?
We believe in and defend the principle of peaceful exchange of powers and authority through the
ballot boxes and whatever the results or outcomes
we accept and believe them, even if we have our
reservations towards that. We have a lot of reservations about the provincial council elections.
And as for me personally, I have documents and
evidence, proof that there was fraud and, you
know, manipulation in the results of that last elections. And for me, as you know, a member of parliament I was one who questioned the IHEC in the
house of representatives, and I concluded from
Ortadoğu Analiz
Mart’10 Cilt 2 - Sayı 15
83
>
84
Röportaj
Our basic judgements on other parties is based on whether or not they
seek the unity of Iraqi people, the sovereignty of Iraq, the identity of Iraq,
and Arabic and Islamic identity. Those are the basic elements that we
can say let us unite with the others.
this questioning in the house of representatives
that documents and evidence showed that there
had been election fraud. The members of the
house of representatives supported this conclusion. But of course, we accepted the results. And
nowadays we are strongly supporting the provincial councils and the governors. What is important for us to benefit from such experiences
and the mistakes that occurred and not to repeat
these mistakes in the future. And when we saw
the majority of the negative examples that took
place during those elections, we tried to legislate
election laws to enact measures that can help to
prevent or overcome all the mistakes or violations took place in the last elections.
authority from the prime minister and the other
ministers, so that they cannot use it as a kind of
a tool for their propaganda. In addition to some
other technical, you know, ideas and steps were
put in that new law and this would need a lot
of technical explanations. Those technical actually ways to be used in counting the votes and
to have the results. But of course we cannot say
that those are the final steps and will prevent all
the forging or the using of the, you know, general
budget of the country. So we tried to put procedures to limit that, but we expect that some
violations might occur anyway.
Did Prime Minister Maliki use the Iraqi army
to his party’s advantage in the elections?
We in Fadhila enjoy very good relations with our
other brothers in the Supreme Council, or the
Sadrist trend, or Badr, and the others. And we
notice that there is a kind of an insistence from
all the partners to study the previous experiment and benefit from its lessons. The mistakes
were diagnosed, the treatment was also specified
through the domestic system and the structure
of the new alliance convinced the leadership of
our party to join this alliance.
Yes. Such violations happened and it has been
proven. In addition, the general budget of the
state was used also for the elections. Frankly,
this is why we tried in this new elections law not
to repeat the previous experiment. For example,
some of the violations during that election happened because of influence on the IHEC itself,
from the procedures we took, the budgets under
the control of the prime minister, or the president
of the republic or the speaker of the parliament.
In the 2010 budget we said that the budgets can
not be used except when the new government is
going to come or take the posts. For example, we
have now one hundred and fifteen thousand jobs
available. We specified that and put it under the
control of an institution. This institution is going
to put regulations on the hiring of people, capable people, for these jobs. So this step took that
Why is Fadhila joining the Itilaf coalition?
What can you tell us about the ideological differences or political differences between Fadhila and other Shiite parties? How should we
understand this?
Actually, let’s look at all the political parties in
Iraq. We don’t want to speak and deal as if ours
is a Shiite party or a Sunni party because we
believe that this is the natural structure of the
country. I was born in a Shiite community, and
Ortadoğu Analiz
Mart’10 Cilt 2 - Sayı 15
>
Röportaj
every other human being is born in a certain society or community, and he is proud to belong
to that community. But our basic judgements
on other parties is based on whether or not they
seek the unity of Iraqi people, the sovereignty
of Iraq, the identity of Iraq, and Arabic and Islamic identity. Those are the basic elements that
we can say let us unite with the others. Whether those parties are Shiite or Sunni, secular or
liberal. What is important is that it an Iraqi political party working for Iraq, Iraqi people and
implementing these principles. But maybe because of the geographical and historical context
created those parties. For example Fadhila, the
Supreme Council, Badr and the other parties
were founded in Shiite communities. But this
does not prevent us from working together and
more closely with other parties with different
backgrounds. Nowadays we have people in our
alliance from the Sunni communities. Some of
them live in Rahmadi in Anwar province. Others live in Mosul. Others in Salahedin province
and from the Basra province, which has a majority of Shiite people. In addition, there are some
other secular figures and secular parties. Now all
of us working together in this Iraqi national alliance believe in one political agenda or program.
Far from the sectarian trenches, supporting the
unity and identity of Iraq.
What’s Fadhila’s point of view on federalism
and the Kurdish region?
When Iraq was transformed into the new democratic state and the Iraqi constitution was ratified, approved by the majority of the Iraqi people,
both political leaders and people in general. This
constitution describes the basic elements and
principles of how to build the Iraqi state. One of
those basic elements is the federal system. This
country is made up of regions and independent
provinces. So the constitution stipulates a federal government, not a central government. This
federal government does enjoy limited authority regarding national sovereignty. For example:
foreign affairs, defense, natural resources. Some
limited authority. Anything other than that will
be the jurisdiction of the authorities powers of
the regions and the provinces. In addition, the
constitution identifies Kurdistan as a region. So
actually, based on these principles, we believe
what the constitution says. Yes, the constitution needs to be adjusted and reformed, but for
me, personally, and in my own view, there is no
way that adjustments to the constitution will be
made. This is the constitution we have, and we
must live with it and benefit from the authority
it provides. So the Fadhila party believes in the
federalist principle, federalism, but at the same
time we don’t believe in separating or dividing
Iraq. We believe in administrative federalism,
but not on a principle of federalism based on sectarianism. We believe the path to building federalism in Iraq should pass through stages. The
first stage is to give the authorities and powers,
the decentralized authorities and powers, to the
provinces. So the provinces will enjoy all the authorities and powers that were granted to them
by the constitution and be given a share of the
national income from natural wealth or resources, basically, the oil. This means just like nowadays, when seventeen percent of the budget is
given to Kurdistan. The constitution and the law
admits that every province should have a share
of the federal income according to its percentage of the population. This is one of the things
that we in the Fadhila party are seeking to see
implemented. It has been adopted by the Iraqi
National Alliance, and actually, we tried previously to implement it. As the Iraqi National Alliance we made significant steps in this direction.
We managed to dissolve the municipal ministries and we transferred all of their departments
to the provinces. The powers and authorities of
the ministers were given to the governors of the
provinces and the local councils. In addition, we
also dissolved the central departments of the
ministry of social affairs and transferred them
to the provinces. Projects were being conducted
by government ministers in Bagdad linked to the
implementation or provision of services to the
people. The majority of the projects are investments in providing services that are not linked
to federal affairs. We transferred these projects
Ortadoğu Analiz
Mart’10 Cilt 2 - Sayı 15
85
>
86
Röportaj
Fadhila Party believes in the principle that we should first seek to give
the authorities and powers to the provinces and then, after a period of
time, establish the administrative region, which is formed by one province. The Fadhila party never mentioned a region made up of three or five
or nine provinces.
from the central government to the authority of
the provinces. For example: building schools or
hospitals, the fresh water projects or sewage systems, such projects were transferred to the authorities of the governors or the provinces. But
other bigger or national projects, for example,
building an international airport or a refinery
with a large capacity will remain under the auspices of the federal government. This we call the
first stage in our constitutional process, giving
decentralized authority to the provinces.
Of course, the next step will rely mostly on the
success of this experiment. The next step will be
to create or establish the regions. Because we
believe that the federalism comes after serious
steps. We suggest that the next step could be
forming the regions that include only one province. This experiment, if it also succeeds and is
accepted by Iraqi people and the people in the
provinces, after that there would be an opportunity to this region joining the other region and
creating a bigger region maybe. This is the specific vision of the Fadhila party and it has also
been adopted by the other parties within the
Iraqi National Alliance. And the steps achieved
up to today have actually been approved and accepted by all the entities in the Iraqi National Alliance and implemented on ground.
Do federal regions have the right to run separate armies?
Yes, it was granted by the constitution. The army
is only under the authority of the federal govern-
ment. But the police and internal security are
under the authority of the province.
What about the Peshmarga?
We said at the beginning that Kurdistan is a de
facto region. We look at the Peshmarga as if they
are police force, a local police force, under the
region’s authority and responsible for security
inside the region only, and not responsible for
any military affairs or the security of the national
borders. All of such things are in the constitution, and everybody believes in it. There might
have be some violations or problems happening
now and then, yes this is possible. But the main
principle is that the Peshmarga forces are local
forces only.
As far as we know, in the past the Fadhila
Party favored a federation made up of three
provinces. Is that correct?
No.
Then do you favor a greater Shiite federal region now?
Since its establishment to this day the Fadhila
Party believes in the principle that we should
first seek to give the authorities and powers to
the provinces and then, after a period of time,
establish the administrative region, which is
formed by one province. And we presented our
project on this subject, so it is known that the
Fadhila party never mentioned a region made up
Ortadoğu Analiz
Mart’10 Cilt 2 - Sayı 15
>
Röportaj
of three or five or nine provinces. It was not a
rejection on principle originally, but because we
believe that such a systems requires more education and time. And frankly, to say that we have
the mechanisms in the constitution does not
help us to form a region made up of three or five
or nine provinces. Yes, the law allows it, but the
mechanism is very hard and complicated.
What can you tell us about the social and economic conditions of the southern regions?
Actually, this is also a very complicated issue.
But let me state the main points about this. In
general the central and southern areas are stabilized on the security and political levels. But
they didn’t get the economic support that suits
the natural wealth and resources that they have.
The main reason for this is that the experiment
in Iraq is still young which reflects the lack of
experiences. In the new phase that the country
is passing through, the law is still not that strong
and effective, and there is still corruption. All
of these elements are obstacles to the progress
of nations. So we believe one of the solutions to
these problems is to be free from centralized authorities and to work with decentralized authorities and powers. Actually, this year every barrel
of oil produced in Basra or any other area was
specified. For every barrel there should be one
dollar that goes to the budget of that province.
This is a supplemental budget, separate from
the budget of all the sales of the oil. Every barrel refined should furnish one dollar to the province that produce it. And for religious tourism
centers, such as Najaf or Karbala every foreign
tourist who comes to those cities should represent twenty dollars being given from the government of the province for each of those visitors.
All of these things will help in the reconstruction
and progress of those areas. Today these areas
are also making efforts to attract investors. For
example, we have some Turkish companies in
Basra and projects in Najaf. Even other nation’s
companies, for example, in Najaf I know that
there was an agreement and the Bayer pharmaceutical company from West Germany and they
started (…). They are now working to establish
a factory there. Housing projects are also underway in Najaf. We have one project to house
some three thousand families. And in the other
provinces, too. Of course, establishing the Najaf
airport was a very important step to attract visitors and investors to the city. So now companies
have begun to visit the central and southern areas to see their experts and their workers, the
security, and the economic realities. And what
the needs of the market are. And what the laws
in place are. How can they ensure their business through the banking system and insurance.
Yes, there are problems and other obstacles, but
there are companies already on the job. And of
course, whoever puts his boots on the ground
first will be taking the lead later on.
Ortadoğu Analiz
Mart’10 Cilt 2 - Sayı 15
87