TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
INDEPENDENT BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION
MELBOURNE
MONDAY 25 MAY 2014 AT 11.04 AM
(14th day of examinations)
MR STEPHEN O’BRYAN, Commissioner
MS AMBER HARRIS, Counsel Assisting
OPERATION ORD INVESTIGATION
PUBLIC EXAMINATIONS PURSUANT TO PART 6 OF THE INDEPENDENT
BROAD-BASED ANTI-CORRUPTION COMMISSION ACT 2011
AUSCRIPT
UNCLASSIFIED
1
MR O’BRYAN:
This examination is to be video recorded.
Please
2
commence the recording.
3
the time is 11.04 am.
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conducting this examination under powers delegated to me
5
by instrument dated 5 September 2013, a copy of which has
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already been marked as exhibit 1 in this investigation.
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The examination is being held and conducted under part 6
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of the Independent Broad-Based Anti-Corruption Commission
9
Act 2011 as part of an investigation under part 3 of that
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Today’s date is 25 May 2015 and
My name is Stephen O’Bryan.
I am
Act.
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I take this opportunity to draw your attention, Mr
12
Stecher, and to your counsel, Mr Barns – good morning –
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that this examination is inquisitorial in nature.
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means that I am not bound by the rules of evidence and
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that I can regulate the conduct of the examination in
16
such ways as I consider appropriate.
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open to the public.
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Stecher, to please enter the witness box, and Mr Barns,
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please feel free to take a seat at the bar table.
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MR BARNS:
21
MR O’BRYAN:
22
The examination is
At this stage, I would ask you, Mr
Thank you, your Honour.
Please be seated, Mr Stecher.
Mr Stecher, do you
have a middle name?
23
MR STECHER:
Sorry?
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you have a middle name?
25
MR STECHER:
Yes.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Gabriel.
Gabriel.
Pursuant to my delegated powers, I now
27
require you to either take an oath or to make an
28
affirmation, Mr Stecher.
29
you prefer?
30
This
MR STECHER:
Which of those two options do
Either one.
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DISCUSSION
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MR O’BRYAN:
Well, you have to choose.
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MR STECHER:
Okay.
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MR O’BRYAN:
Oath is swearing on the bible, and if you are a
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Christian and believe in God, otherwise the affirmation.
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MR STECHER:
The affirmation.
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MR O’BRYAN:
Affirmation.
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MARK GABRIEL STECHER, AFFIRMED
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MR O’BRYAN:
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Would you please repeat after me.
[11.05 am]
Because this is an inquisitorial examination, Mr
Stecher, the procedure differs from procedures which are
10
adversarial in nature and of the kind that you normally
11
see in the courts.
12
question you on matters relevant to the subject matter of
13
the investigation and I may also ask you some questions.
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Before that, I’m required to deal with some preliminary
15
matters.
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Counsel assisting me, Ms Harris, will
Firstly, to advise you of the nature of the matters
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in respect of which you are to be asked questions.
They
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are to give evidence here in relation to your knowledge
19
of matters the subject of the scope and purpose described
20
in the preliminary information and directions for public
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examinations in Operation Ord, a copy of which was
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attached to your summons.
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were served with the summons to attend today, did you
24
receive a document titled Section 121(3)(c) Statement of
25
Rights and Obligations?
Mr Stecher, at the time you
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MR STECHER:
I don’t remember the numbers, but - - -
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MR O’BRYAN:
I will just ask the hearing attendant to show you
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what I understand to be a copy.
29
quick look at that document.
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document that looked like that?
Thank you.
Just have a
Do you recall receiving a
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MR STECHER:
Yes.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
And have you been through that either with Mr
3
Barns or another lawyer?
4
MR STECHER:
Yes.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
All right.
Thank you.
Well, then, you can
6
hand that back.
Mr Stecher and Mr Barns, because this
7
investigation involves a protected disclosure, I am
8
required to advise you of two matters under the Protected
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Disclosures Act.
First, you would be committing a
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criminal offence if you disclose the content or
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information about the content of the disclosure and,
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secondly, you would also be committing a criminal offence
13
if you disclose information likely to lead to the
14
identification of the person who made the assessable
15
disclosure.
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may not.
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That, of course, assumes you know, which you
Mr Stecher, you may disclose the content or
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information about the content of the protected disclosure
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to your legal representative for the purpose of obtaining
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legal advice or as part of your representation here.
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am otherwise satisfied that the limited exceptions which
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would allow such disclosure do not apply in this case and
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I do not allow disclosure for any other purpose.
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Barns, you may disclose such information for the purposes
25
of complying with a legal duty of disclosure or a
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professional obligation arising from your professional
27
relationship with your client.
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MR BARNS:
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MR O’BRYAN:
30
I
And, Mr
Yes, your Honour.
Well, the examination will commence and I
authorise Mr Harris to examine you.
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Thank you, Ms
M.G. STECHER
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2
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Harris.
MS HARRIS:
Thank you, Commissioner.
Are you Mark Gabriel Stecher?
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MR STECHER:
5
MS HARRIS:
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MR STECHER:
Stecher.
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MR O’BRYAN:
Sorry, Mr Stecher.
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MR STECHER:
No.
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MS HARRIS:
10
Yes.
Is it Stecher or Stecher?
Do you attend here in response to a summons served
on you?
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MR STECHER:
12
MS HARRIS:
Yes, I do.
If I could just have handed to you some documents,
13
please.
14
number S1430?
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MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
That’s okay.
Could you just confirm that that was summons
Yes.
That’s what it says, yes.
And with that summons, did you also receive a
confidentiality notice dated 16 March 2015?
18
MR STECHER:
19
MS HARRIS:
I believe so.
And also a document that the Commissioner has
20
already directed you to, Statement of Rights and
21
Obligations?
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MR STECHER:
23
MS HARRIS:
24
MR STECHER:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
27
MS HARRIS:
28
Yes.
And a covering letter dated 16 March 2015?
Yes.
Are they copies of the documents served on you?
They certainly look like that.
I will let you have an opportunity to have a look
just to satisfy yourself that they’re copies.
29
MR STECHER:
30
MS HARRIS:
It looks like the case, yes.
I tender those, Commissioner.
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MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
That bundle will be marked as exhibit #175.
2
EXHIBIT #175 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS
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MS HARRIS:
Mr Stecher, have you discussed the existence of
4
the summons or the subject matter of the IBAC
5
investigation with anybody, other than your legal
6
representative?
7
8
MR STECHER:
I may have – it might have come up in
conversation, yes.
9
MS HARRIS:
10
MR O’BRYAN:
11
Yes.
With who?
Could you just speak into the right-hand mic.
That’s the one that amplifies.
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MR STECHER:
Okay.
13
MR O’BRYAN:
The left-hand one is the transcript microphone.
14
15
16
Thank you, Mr Stecher.
MR STECHER:
MS HARRIS:
18
MR STECHER:
20
21
It may have come up in conversation with
Nino and Carlo.
17
19
Yes.
Sorry.
Nino and?
Nino and Carlo Squillacioti.
It may have come up
in conversation with them.
MS HARRIS:
Other than – when you say “Nino”, do you mean Nino
Napoli?
22
MR STECHER:
23
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Other than Nino Napoli and Carlo Squillacioti, is
24
there anybody else you’ve discussed the IBAC
25
investigation with?
26
MR STECHER:
Actually, some – I left the information on my
27
desk and one of the staff at worked picked it up, so
28
there’s a couple of people at work that knew about it as
29
well.
30
MS HARRIS:
When you say “information”, do you mean your
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M.G. STECHER
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summons or something else?
2
MR STECHER:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
5
MS HARRIS:
6
Yes.
No.
That was just the summons, yes.
How many people at work?
Probably two.
Right.
So other than Nino Napoli, Carlo
Squillacioti and the two people at work?
7
MR STECHER:
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MR STECHER:
My girlfriend.
All right.
That’s all?
Yes.
10
MS HARRIS:
11
MR STECHER:
12
MS HARRIS:
13
MR STECHER:
14
DyCom group, so I’m CEO of those five businesses.
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR STECHER:
17
MS HARRIS:
18
MR STECHER:
19
MS HARRIS:
20
What’s your occupation, Mr Stecher?
I’m a CEO, business owner.
Of which company?
DyCom.
There are five companies involved in the
Did you start the DyCom company?
Yes, I did.
When was that?
1989.
And what was the registered business address of
DyCom at that time?
21
MR STECHER:
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
MR STECHER:
30
MS HARRIS:
Probably 51 Simpson Street, Northcote.
And did DyCom operate out of that address also?
Yes.
Where do they operate out of now?
76 Newlands Road, Reservoir.
How many employees does DyCom have?
At the moment, about 10 local and 24 overseas.
And what about when it started back in ’89?
Just myself.
When you started the company, did you have any
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assistance starting it up from an accountant or something
2
similar?
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MR STECHER:
6
MS HARRIS:
7
MR STECHER:
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MR STECHER:
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MR STECHER:
14
15
And who does the accounting for DyCom now?
Steve Metter.
Does he hold a position within your company?
Yes.
General manager.
Right.
company?
10
13
No.
Do you have an accounts person within your
Is that him?
No, no.
Lynn Johns is our financial controller.
And what sorts of things is she responsible for?
Accounts receivable, accounts payable, anything
to do with – we use QuickBooks, so she runs that package.
MR STECHER:
So does she prepare profit/loss statements and
that kind of thing?
16
MR STECHER:
17
MS HARRIS:
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MR STECHER:
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MS HARRIS:
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MR STECHER:
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MS HARRIS:
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MR STECHER:
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MS HARRIS:
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MR STECHER:
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MS HARRIS:
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MR STECHER:
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MS HARRIS:
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MR STECHER:
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MS HARRIS:
30
MR STECHER:
Yes.
So she and Steve Metter do that together.
BAS statements?
Correct, yes.
She does the BAS statements.
And who does the end of year income tax?
Steve Metter.
Do you have bank accounts for DyCom - - Yes.
- - - in the company name?
Yes.
Which bank is that held with?
CBA.
Has that always been the case?
Since about 1995.
And prior to that?
ANZ, I believe.
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2
MS HARRIS:
DyCom?
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
6
And how many accounts are held in the name of
I believe about five.
Can you give us a summary of the type of work
DyCom does?
MR STECHER:
We have – as I mentioned, we’ve got five
7
companies.
One of them is what we call network
8
integration.
9
to corporate clients mostly and some government.
So we install and provide computer hardware
We have
10
a wider solutions business where we provide high-speed
11
point-to-point wireless communication links for health –
12
hospitals, universities and high-end corporates.
13
a security surveillance business where we install
14
security cameras and surveillance systems for councils
15
and typically Safe Cities Projects.
16
high-rise buildings, which is access control and security
17
in that business.
18
where we provide cloud solutions to corporate clients and
19
we have an outsourcing business.
20
the Philippines where we provide a range of back office
21
staff.
22
23
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
27
MS HARRIS:
28
MR STECHER:
30
We also do work with
We have a cloud solutions business
So we have a team in
You have a friendship with Nino Napoli;
is that right?
24
29
I see.
We have
Correct.
How long have you known him?
About 25, 26 years.
How did you meet him?
Through Carlo.
Carlo is a friend of mine – his
cousin.
MS HARRIS:
So Carlo introduced you?
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M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
MR STECHER:
Carlo Squillacioti is a friend of mine, which is
Nino’s cousin, and that was an introduction.
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
And I assume that you’re not related to
4
either the Napolis or the Squillaciotis by blood or
5
marriage?
6
MR STECHER:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
9
10
No, no.
Other than Carlo Squillacioti, do you have any
association with other family members of Nino Napoli?
MR STECHER:
I know a number of his – I know his brothers, Gus
and Robbie.
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MR STECHER:
Yes.
I know his wife, of course.
13
brother-in-law, Dominic.
14
that’s about it.
15
over the years.
16
17
MS HARRIS:
Dominic’s wife.
His
Yes, I think
But I’ve met a lot of Nino’s family
Have you discussed the IBAC investigation with any
of those people?
18
MR STECHER:
19
MS HARRIS:
20
His sons.
No.
Have you also at some stage had a professional
relationship with Nino Napoli?
21
MR STECHER:
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
Yes.
Can you tell us about that?
That started in 1989 when I was introduced to him
24
by Carlo.
At that time he was – he had some printers he
25
was having problems with, and the company he bought them
26
from said that they couldn’t support them.
27
asked if I could go and support them, and that started
28
the relationship.
29
western region at that time.
30
we started providing support and hardware to the western
So I was
He was the finance manager for the
And so as a result of that,
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
region.
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MR STECHER:
So that’s within the Department of Education?
Correct.
He then referred us out to the school
4
system, and we started working with – the first school
5
was Altona North Secondary College, and we started
6
working with Altona North and that was about 1991.
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
9
MS HARRIS:
10
MR STECHER:
11
MS HARRIS:
All right.
I will just stop you there.
Yes.
And I will ask you about that in a moment.
Okay.
Did you provide any services to Nino Napoli
12
personally as opposed to during his – or in his role in
13
the Department?
14
MR STECHER:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR STECHER:
Yes.
And what did you do for him?
It was mainly – mainly his personal computer.
So
17
we did things like – did upgrades.
18
computer every few years.
19
computers he was working with so it was partially, like,
20
his personal and business.
21
his computers into – into the Education Department.
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
He would upgrade his
They were more or less
Because we were connecting
Yes.
When – when we finish with a computer, like as it
24
– like as it came out of date, we clean it up and then
25
install a new computer.
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
MR STECHER:
30
MS HARRIS:
Are you aware of any companies that Mr Napoli had?
Yes.
And did you do any work for them?
Very – very normal, I believe.
Which company or companies are you familiar with?
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MR STECHER:
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MR STECHER:
4
5
6
7
There’s a company called Bammington.
Yes.
There was a company called Encino which he was –
I believe he was a director of.
MS HARRIS:
Did he tell you that, that he was a director of
Encino?
MR STECHER:
I think I actually saw that in – because I’ve
8
been reading through some of these transcripts and I saw
9
that in the transcripts.
10
11
12
But at that stage I thought
Encino was Carlo Squillacioti’s company.
MS HARRIS:
So that’s something that you have recently formed
a view about.
13
MR STECHER:
14
MS HARRIS:
15
MR STECHER:
Yes.
So what work did you do for Bammington?
I don’t recollect actually whether we did
16
anything.
17
something but I – I can’t recollect.
18
have record of that if – in our systems.
19
20
21
MS HARRIS:
I just know the name.
We may have done
With – we would
And for the work that you did for Nino personally,
were you the contact person within the company?
MR STECHER:
The initial contact, but I never did any – all
22
the proposals and all that sort of stuff was done by – by
23
sales staff so - - -
24
MS HARRIS:
And what about the actual work, if he was having –
25
you mentioned the computers were being tidied up and that
26
kind of thing.
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
MR STECHER:
30
Yes, yes.
Who did that?
In the early days it was mostly me.
More
recently it was mostly my staff, because we – we do what
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M.G. STECHER
1
we call managed services.
2
did some initial stuff, but my technical skills these
3
days are less than what they used to be so I tend to have
4
my staff – so I would sometimes go in and give him a bit
5
of advice and direction, then get my staff to complete
6
whatever needed to be completed with.
7
8
9
10
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
12
MR STECHER:
15
So you would give your staff or Nino Napoli advice
I would sometimes – sometimes give Nino some
advice and direction.
MS HARRIS:
14
Yes.
And when it got beyond me, I would get my staff
into – to actually do the work.
MS HARRIS:
And you said more recently you’ve got your staff
to do that.
16
MR STECHER:
17
MS HARRIS:
When has that commenced?
Probably over the last 10 years or so.
In terms of the process for quoting and invoicing
18
with DyCom, would you provide a quote for customers
19
requiring a service?
20
MR STECHER:
21
MS HARRIS:
22
MR STECHER:
23
MS HARRIS:
24
MR STECHER:
Yes.
Who would be responsible for preparing that quote?
George Kountourogiannis.
Is that always the case?
Well, he has been with me for 20 years and pretty
25
much in that business, that was the DyCom business
26
systems, part of the group, the network integration.
27
Yes.
28
MS HARRIS:
29
30
I
and direction and then - - -
11
13
So it’s all done remotely.
And so he would decide then what went in the
quote, I would assume.
MR STECHER:
Yes.
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MS HARRIS:
2
MR STECHER:
Did he ever have to run it past you?
Not – not really.
I mean, if it was a large
3
quote, we just – we just did a large tender, for example.
4
It was a million dollar tender.
5
together.
6
MS HARRIS:
We would work on that
The small stuff, no.
And I would imagine that the type of business
7
you’re in there would be some things that have a set
8
price, for example, provision of the computer.
9
10
MR STECHER:
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
And then there would be some things that might
11
have an hourly rate if you’re actually working on some
12
things.
13
MR STECHER:
14
MS HARRIS:
15
Is that right?
Correct.
And would a quote always be provided prior to a
job being done?
16
MR STECHER:
17
MS HARRIS:
18
MR STECHER:
I would say so, yes.
That’s DyCom’s practice?
Yes, unless – unless it was service work.
So
19
sometimes if there’s a – for example, you might get a
20
virus on your computer.
21
whatever time it took was the time it took.
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
Our staff would go in and
Yes.
So time and materials type stuff.
But when it
24
was hardware, there would be generally a quote which was
25
– we get the price.
26
you’ve got the services on top of that.
27
MS HARRIS:
We add a margin on top, and then
And I would imagine then that if, whilst doing the
28
work, it became apparent that it was going to take longer
29
for some reason, that would be a dialogues that you would
30
have with the customer, that it - - 2193
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M.G. STECHER
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MR STECHER:
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
I wish.
Sorry, I missed that.
I said, I wish.
Right.
Our quotes are fixed.
So if you anticipate something was going
5
to take six hours and it takes eight hours, you charge
6
for the - - -
7
MR STECHER:
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MR STECHER:
10
11
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
13
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
So then there would be no discrepancy between a
There should not be, no.
And then no reason then to change any invoice
No.
When you say no, you’re agreeing with me.
Is that
right?
18
MR STECHER:
19
MS HARRIS:
20
Yes.
because it would match the quote.
15
17
The six hours.
quote and an invoice then, from what you’re saying.
12
14
We cop a loss.
Sorry?
When you say no, you’re agreeing with me.
Is that
right?
21
MR STECHER:
22
MS HARRIS:
Correct, yes.
Yes.
Excuse me for a moment.
Could we have page
23
478 of the main court book, please.
24
something is just going to come up on the screen there
25
that I just want to ask you about.
26
main court book.
27
between George Kountourogiannis.
28
MR STECHER:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MR STECHER:
Mr Stecher,
478, please, of the
We can see here that this is an email
Is that right?
Close?
Kountourogiannis, yes.
Thank you.
On 31 January 2011.
Yes.
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2
MS HARRIS:
I think you indicated that he has worked for you
for approximately 20 years.
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
Correct.
To Nino Napoli, relating to invoice CW3151:
5
Hello, Nino.
6
to computer services.
7
Please find attached our invoices relating
Please advise if all okay.
And then if you can be of assistance, there’s his
8
number.
9
would George be asking Nino Napoli if the invoice is
10
okay?
11
MR STECHER:
12
MS HARRIS:
What does that mean “if it’s all okay”?
Why
That’s a good question.
It would be strange, wouldn’t it?
Because you
13
would expect that an invoice would be completed by George
14
and just sent through to the client, in this case Mr
15
Napoli.
16
17
MR STECHER:
Knowing – knowing George, I wouldn’t think it was
strange, no.
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MR STECHER:
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MR STECHER:
You wouldn’t think it was strange?
Not – knowing the way that George operates, no.
Why is that?
He sometimes says some strange things.
I – I
22
wouldn’t say – if I saw that, I wouldn’t think of
23
anything particularly untoward and I wouldn’t have picked
24
anything on that, no.
25
MS HARRIS:
You wouldn’t think then that if Mr Napoli said it
26
wasn’t okay, that George would be prepared to change the
27
invoice.
28
MR STECHER:
It doesn’t read like that to you?
Well, sometimes you would say that if he was
29
concerned about – if it was services, for example,
30
sometimes the client thinks that those services should be
2195
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
a certain amount when, in fact, they’ve come to a lot
2
more.
3
we go with the client’s perception.
4
in his mind, this is going to take 10 hours and we take
5
20, this is a time and materials type quote, we will go
6
back and discuss that.
7
MS HARRIS:
And generally what happens in those situations is
So if a client has
We do that quite regularly.
But didn’t you indicate just a moment ago that you
8
would have provided a quote in relation to a job and that
9
- - -
10
MR STECHER:
11
MS HARRIS:
I don’t know – I don’t know what this job is.
Well, just in relation to my question, you
12
indicated that you would have provided a quote to a
13
customer.
14
quote, that you bore that loss.
15
wasn’t it?
16
MR STECHER:
17
MS HARRIS:
18
MR STECHER:
19
MS HARRIS:
20
MR STECHER:
21
MS HARRIS:
22
MR STECHER:
23
MS HARRIS:
24
MR STECHER:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
27
28
And that if it happened to cost more than the
That was your evidence,
No, but again, I don’t know - - Just a moment.
That was your evidence, wasn’t it?
Correct.
Yes.
So if it’s a fixed – yes.
So - - So if this was a fixed quote, that’s correct.
So this would seem a bit strange to you then.
But if - - That somebody is offering to change an invoice.
If it was a fixed quote.
If it was time and
materials, no.
MS HARRIS:
Perhaps we can go over the page, 477, please:
29
George, why is there two invoices?
30
as one?
Can you combine
Details of the invoice, can you put down as
2196
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
description, repairs and service computer including
2
the testing and training.
Nino.
3
That would have been a matter for George, what he put in
4
the description, wouldn’t it?
5
MR STECHER:
6
MS HARRIS:
7
And it would have related, one would assume, to
the service or goods provided.
8
MR STECHER:
9
MS HARRIS:
10
Yes.
Yes.
So why then is Nino Napoli determining the details
of a description for an invoice?
11
MR STECHER:
12
MS HARRIS:
13
MR STECHER:
14
MS HARRIS:
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
I don’t know.
Did George ever come to you about that/
No.
Didn’t express any concerns about that?
No.
Have you seen that before?
No.
Well, I don’t know – as I – I don’t really
18
get involved at this level in the business.
19
mean, I don’t – yes, I would not get involved in that,
20
certainly since 2011, yes.
21
22
MS HARRIS:
Really, I
So since 2011 you have not been involved in quotes
or invoices or discussions about - - -
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
I haven’t been involved in that since about 1998.
Yes.
And if we have a look at page 468, please.
25
That appears to be the invoice of the same number, CW3151
26
dated 20 January 2011 for, as Mr Napoli requested,
27
repairs and service computer, including the testing and
28
training.
29
concern you that your client, notwithstanding he is a
30
friend of yours, is telling your employee what to put in
And if we scroll down, $1134.38.
2197
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Does it
M.G. STECHER
1
2
an invoice?
MR STECHER:
To – yes, to a certain extent.
The part that’s
3
missing here for me is the actual work that was done, and
4
we have a record of all of that, so that’s part – that
5
would be relevant to what’s on this.
6
– it’s testing and training, I don’t know.
7
check.
8
9
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
11
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
14
MS HARRIS:
15
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Correct.
And how would it be matched then – would it be
Yes.
Yes.
I tender those three documents, Commissioner.
So it – I have got a note of page 478, and this
one is 468.
17
MS HARRIS:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
19
And that’s a record that you would still have in
matched by the invoice number?
13
16
But I can
your computer system?
10
12
So it could well be
And 477, sir.
477.
All right.
Well, then from book 1, 477 to
8, and 468 will be marked exhibit 176.
20
EXHIBIT #176 PAGES 468, 477 AND 478 FROM BOOK 1.
21
MS HARRIS:
Mr Stecher, you commenced before telling us about
22
the work that you had done for some schools, and
23
indicated that you have done some work for the Department
24
of Education through Nino Napoli as well?
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
Yes.
When did – if we can deal with firstly the
Department of Education, when did that work commence?
28
MR STECHER:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MR STECHER:
1989.
How did you get it?
That was through the introduction from Carlo’s
2198
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
cousin to Nino Napoli.
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MR STECHER:
And - - And so we went into Nino – into Carlo’s office.
Yes.
He told us some work that he needed done which
6
was basically supporting some printers at that time, and
7
we provided that support;
8
then asked us some time later to provide more printers
9
and - - -
10
11
MS HARRIS:
got his printers going.
He
Were these printers that were within the
Department somewhere?
12
MR STECHER:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MR STECHER:
Correct, yes.
Whereabouts where they?
That was in Moonee Ponds.
The Department –
15
Western Region had their office in Moonee Ponds at that
16
time, just near Moonee Ponds junction.
17
18
19
MS HARRIS:
And has the work with the Department since that
time been fairly ongoing?
MR STECHER:
Not particularly.
It continued on until they
20
moved – they moved office into Footscray.
21
with the move.
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
24
We helped them
They then moved into Rialto.
Sorry, where?
I missed that.
Into – they had an office in Footscray at one
point.
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
Yes.
I think Nino was then – he got promoted – moved
27
into Rialto . I think they moved everything into Rialto.
28
We did a little bit of work for them.
29
has pretty much diminished over the last ten, 12 years.
30
So – I know there has been work done, but not a lot.
2199
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Not much, but it
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
4
5
6
MS HARRIS:
engaged to work for the Department?
MR STECHER:
Not really.
It would have been in the last 12
months.
MS HARRIS:
Do you have to go through any type of tender
process when you do work for the Department?
7
MR STECHER:
8
MS HARRIS:
9
know?
10
MR STECHER:
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MR STECHER:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MR STECHER:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
Do you know when the last tie was that DyCom was
Yes, for larger jobs.
For larger jobs, yes.
When you say large jobs, over what amount?
Do you
I believe it’s anything over about $10,000.
And anything under that?
What’s the process then?
That’s just – just a quote.
Just a quote?
Yes.
Or proposal.
And again, always provided in advance of the work
being done?
17
MR STECHER:
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MR STECHER:
Correct.
Yes.
Which individual schools have you worked for?
There’s quite a list.
Bayside Secondary College,
20
Rowville Secondary College.
21
schools around Victoria.
22
those.
23
the campuses of those schools.
24
working with quite a lot of schools providing IT support
25
services.
26
their own contractors, and so that work more or less
27
stopped since then.
28
MS HARRIS:
29
MR STECHER:
30
There are 35 multi-campus
We have worked with all of
We provide wireless communication links between
Up until about 2000 .....
In 2000 the Department of Education contracted
When was that, sorry?
That was 2000.
A number of our technicians went
into schools at that time, and so we subsequently still
2200
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
deal with some of those schools.
MS HARRIS:
independent schools, is that right?
4
MR STECHER:
5
MS HARRIS:
6
MR STECHER:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
9
10
11
Not a huge amount.
Individual schools, I should say.
Not a huge amount, no.
What’s not a huge amount?
Again, I don’t look at those figures, but I
suggest probably in the order of 30 to $60,000 a year
across the board.
MS HARRIS:
12
year?
13
MR STECHER:
14
MS HARRIS:
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
So from about 2000 you haven’t had much work with
And that would encompass how many schools in a
I’m guessing a little bit here - - Roughly.
- - - but I would suggest probably five to ten.
The work with individual schools, did that come
through Nino Napoli also?
18
MR STECHER:
19
MS HARRIS:
20
MR STECHER:
No.
How did you get that work?
Mostly not.
The initial school, which was the
21
one I mentioned before, Altona North Secondary College,
22
was a reference from Nino.
23
referred us to a number of other schools.
24
didn’t actually influence the work.
25
created a relationship with the school principals and –
26
or whoever we dealt with, business managers.
27
- - -
28
MS HARRIS:
He also – over the years he
I guess he
We went in there,
At one
So when you say he referred, he would obviously
29
speak to someone in that school and then you would meet
30
with either the principal or the business manager?
2201
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MR STECHER:
5
that?
6
MS HARRIS:
7
MR STECHER:
8
- - -
10
11
Did you ever do any work for schools when you
didn’t meet with the principal or the business manager?
4
9
Correct.
MS HARRIS:
Like ..... met with a teacher or something like
Sorry, I missed that.
We met with a teacher or something like that?
Is that – are you asking me?
MR STECHER:
Look, I’m not sure.
Or
Or are you saying?
I personally don’t recollect
doing that.
12
MS HARRIS:
13
MR STECHER:
14
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Again - - So your recollection is every – any goods or
15
services provided by DyCom to a school, that was via
16
having contact with the either the principal or business
17
manager?
18
MR STECHER:
Or – I mean, we work with teachers within the
19
schools as well.
20
example, for IT and that sort of thing, so we would work
21
with them.
22
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Some teachers were responsible, for
How did it come about that you started
23
working with – when I say ‘you’, DyCom, became involved
24
with Moonee Ponds West Primary School?
25
MR STECHER:
I’m not sure.
I don’t – I haven’t had anything
26
to do with Moonee Ponds.
27
because I have read some of the transcripts, I noticed
28
there was a computer or something sold to them at some
29
point.
30
MS HARRIS:
I noticed that there was a –
Yes.
2202
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
2
yes.
3
MS HARRIS:
4
5
So yes, I don’t know anything about that, but
So you don’t recall DyCom providing any goods or
services to Moonee Ponds West Primary School?
MR STECHER:
Well, we did, but I – again, that was done
6
through a sales team.
7
that.
8
transactions, so - - -
9
MS HARRIS:
So I personally wasn’t involved in
I had very little involvement with those
Can we bring up page 28, please, of the main court
10
book?
11
August 2005.
12
West Primary School, and if we can just scroll down,
13
please, for an IBM notebook, a leather case, and we have
14
got a DyCom management fee there.
15
to the bottom, please, we can see it’s for $2585.
16
Stecher, we know that those particular goods were not
17
supplied to Moonee Ponds West Primary School.
18
then that DyCom has invoiced that school?
19
MR STECHER:
This is a DyCom tax invoice, number 1003 dated 10
As we can see it’s invoiced to Moonee Ponds
And if we just go down
Mr
How is it
My understanding of that type of thing was that
20
the schools had a certain budget they had to spend before
21
the end of the year.
22
went into what I now know as banker schools.
23
contained the money, and if a purchase needed to be made
24
for another school or somewhere else, that will come out
25
of that particular banker school.
26
MS HARRIS:
If they didn’t spend that, that
And so they
Was that an understanding you had back in 2005?
27
Or is that something that you have come to know over the
28
past month or so?
29
30
MR STECHER:
Obviously, of the term banker schools I hadn’t
heard of before, but the concept I understood.
2203
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MS HARRIS:
Who were they supplied to?
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MR STECHER:
6
7
8
9
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
11
MR STECHER:
12
MS HARRIS:
13
MR O’BRYAN:
MS HARRIS:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
17
MS HARRIS:
Would there be a record then of where it was
Possibly, yes.
Where would that record be?
We should have those records on our system.
Again - - Can we see the date again?
Can we scroll back
It’s 10 August 2005.
10 August ’05.
Yes, all right.
And if it was on your system would it have some
kind of reference to that tax invoice number?
19
MR STECHER:
20
MS HARRIS:
22
It could have been ....., but I wasn’t involved
up?
15
21
You have no idea?
delivered to or who picked it up?
MS HARRIS:
18
I personally don’t know.
necessarily in that transaction.
10
14
So where did that notebook and leather case go?
I believe so, yes.
Where it says under description, “DyCom management
fee”, what’s that?
MR STECHER:
That’s – that’s generally when – when we get –
23
when we get a new machine and we set it up and get it
24
ready to go.
25
shelf, generally, they’re not ready to go.
26
have antivirus installed and all those type of things so
27
we just do all that work so it’s generally about an hour
28
to two hours of work.
29
30
MS HARRIS:
So if you buy – buy new machine off the
They don’t
So in a case of a notebook, would that be
something you do prior to delivery or would you deliver
2204
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
it and do it with the customer?
MR STECHER:
Generally, it’s done prior – prior to delivery so
3
quite often the notebook might even be delivered by a
4
courier but we would have it all set up prior to going on
5
site.
6
MR O’BRYAN:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
9
10
11
12
If it was delivered by a courier, you would have a
record of that, wouldn’t you?
MR STECHER:
We should have.
It is going back a long time now
but we should - - MS HARRIS:
Well, certainly a record of a payment to a
courier.
13
MR STECHER:
14
MS HARRIS:
15
Did - - -
Yes, we should have that.
And that – if that was the case, it was obviously
not charged to the client, the courier payment.
16
MR STECHER:
17
MS HARRIS:
Yes, I - - Could we have a look at page 27.
I should
18
indicate, Commissioner, this has previously been
19
exhibited as exhibit 117.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
21
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
As has the next page, page 27, please.
If we look
22
at the bottom email first, the first in time, 16 August
23
2005 from Lynn Johns.
24
she’s the finance person within your company.
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
I think you’ve already indicated
Yes, correct.
To Nino Napoli.
Nino, please find revised invoice as requested.
28
And then if we go up, we can see it’s to – from Nino
29
Napoli to Anthony Hilton who we know was the principal of
30
the school at that time.
2205
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
Tony, attached is the invoice to be replaced with the
2
other one previously supplied.
3
4
Regards, Nino.
What reason would there be for the invoice to be revised?
MR STECHER:
Maybe it’s without seeing the original and the –
5
and the second one, I’m not – really not sure how to
6
answer that question, but again any work or anything we
7
did is in our records.
8
9
10
11
12
MS HARRIS:
Because you would agree, wouldn’t you, that this
is obviously not for a service?
MR STECHER:
This relates – this relates to that previous
notebook.
MS HARRIS:
14
MR STECHER:
15
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Okay, yes.
So what reason can you think off that an invoice
would need to be amended in those circumstances?
17
MR STECHER:
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MR STECHER:
I can’t think of a particular reason.
It would be very unusual, wouldn’t it?
Well, no – no, it wouldn’t.
20
been a conversation.
21
reason.
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
24
25
It’s for goods being the
notebook.
13
16
So we can pull that out.
There would have
There would have been a very good
And that’s not a reason you’re aware of?
No.
Again, as I said, I don’t get involved in
these transactions.
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you have a recollection – I know it’s going
26
back in time – of Mr Napoli sourcing an IBM notebook
27
through you?
28
MR STECHER:
He sourced a number of notebooks over the years.
29
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you have a recollection of an IBM notebook?
30
Is that the likely one you would have sold him - - 2206
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Yes.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
- - - or do you have a recollection of an IBM?
3
MR STECHER:
Yes, yes.
4
MR O’BRYAN:
5
MR STECHER:
6
Yes.
I don’t know about this particular one but, yes,
there were two or three over the years.
7
MR O’BRYAN:
IBM notebooks?
8
MR STECHER:
Generally, IBM.
9
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
10
MS HARRIS:
11
I believe - - -
Was there ever a time that he was sourcing three
notebooks or laptops at one particular time?
12
MR STECHER:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MR STECHER:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR STECHER:
Quite possibly, yes.
Do you have a recollection of that?
No.
Not something he discussed with you?
Quite possibly, yes.
I – again, I don’t have a
17
recollection of individual specific things but again it’s
18
all in our records so I can pull it up quite easily if we
19
need to.
20
MS HARRIS:
If he wanted three laptops for the Department or
21
whatever else and came to you, what would you do about
22
it, then?
23
MR STECHER:
Yes.
They – they would hand that over to George
24
and George would provide the proposal and supply the
25
notebooks.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Was the situation one where Mr Napoli would tend
27
to first contact you and then you would put him on to
28
other people to sort of follow through with a request?
29
MR STECHER:
Sometimes, yes.
30
MR O’BRYAN:
And are you implying that sometimes he would go
2207
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
directly to other people - - -
2
MR STECHER:
Yes.
3
MR O’BRYAN:
4
MR STECHER:
Yes.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
And who would he otherwise go directly to if
6
- - -
7
MR STECHER:
That would be mostly George.
8
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
9
MS HARRIS:
- - - for a new goods or service?
Yes, of course.
Yes.
But you have no recollection of Mr Napoli
10
discussing purchasing three laptops or notebooks with you
11
in about 2005.
12
MR STECHER:
Not particularly.
I would say – suggest that,
13
yes, it probably did happen and it probably did – I
14
probably did have a conversation like that but I can’t
15
remember that specifically, no.
16
17
18
MS HARRIS:
Are you able to say or do you know how many times
Moonee Ponds West Primary School was invoiced by DyCom?
MR STECHER:
Well, that invoice was news to me.
I – I didn’t
19
even know we had – we had dealings with Moonee – Moonee
20
Ponds West Primary School.
21
MS HARRIS:
22
MR STECHER:
23
MS HARRIS:
24
25
26
27
You didn’t know?
No, no.
What about Essendon North Primary School?
Have
you had dealings with them?
MR STECHER:
I – I imagine we have but I – I have no – no
knowledge of that.
MS HARRIS:
Could we look at page 30, please, same court book.
28
Another DyCom tax invoice.
29
2005.
30
MR STECHER:
It’s the same date, 10 August
Yes.
2208
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MS HARRIS:
Invoice 10005.
This time to Essendon North
2
Primary School and if we scroll down, please.
3
for two IBM notebooks, two leather cases, and again a
4
DyCom management fee.
5
supplied to Essendon North Primary School.
6
7
MR O’BRYAN:
This time
Again, we know they weren’t
Well, I think I would put it we are informed by
that school they weren’t supplied.
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MR O’BRYAN:
And therefore are assuming they weren’t.
10
MR STECHER:
Yes.
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MR STECHER:
13
14
15
Yes, Commissioner.
Thank you.
Do you know where those notebooks went?
Again, the same response as before.
I can – I
can probably find out.
MS HARRIS:
And again that’s something you would expect to be
on your computer system somewhere?
16
MR STECHER:
17
MS HARRIS:
18
MR STECHER:
I – I believe so.
Even though it goes back to 2005.
I’m – I’m fairly sure we’ve got – I don’t think
19
we have printed records going back that far but I believe
20
we have computer records.
21
MS HARRIS:
Right.
22
please.
23
2005 to Nino:
And if we can have a look at page 31,
Again, an email from Lynn Johns dated 16 August
24
Please find revised invoices as requested.
25
Lynn.
Regards,
26
And then further up, we can see Mr Napoli has sent that
27
on to Mr Giulieri who at the time was the principal of
28
Essendon North Primary School.
29
explanation as to why another invoice would need to be
30
revised or amended?
Again, can you offer any
2209
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Again, the only – the only way I can really
2
answer that is if I can see both of those invoices and
3
understand the difference and also look at our records as
4
to what work was done or not done at that time.
5
MS HARRIS:
And I think your evidence in relation to the
6
Moonee Ponds West Primary School was that you have no
7
knowledge of that particular transaction.
8
correct?
9
10
MR STECHER:
MS HARRIS:
Is that
Yes.
Can we have a look at page – I should indicate,
11
Commissioner, those two documents have been tendered
12
already as part of court book 12A and they’re exhibit
13
100.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
17
MS HARRIS:
18
100?
100.
All right.
Thank you.
Can we see page 34, please.
This is an email from
Nino Napoli to you, dated 24 January 2006:
19
Mark, please can you send me a quote with regards to
20
the laptop purchased for Moonee Ponds on 25 August
21
2005.
22
The quote if required –
I think it should be “is required” –
23
for every purchase.
I should give this also to the
24
school to put on the file.
25
couple of weeks prior to the invoice in August 2005.
26
Can you mail to me or hard copy to my house address,
27
please.
28
soon as possible.
The quote should be some
Send it together with the report, please, as
Thank you.
Nino Napoli.
29
Does that assist you as to whether or not you had any
30
involvement in that transaction with Moonee Ponds West?
2210
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
I don’t – I don’t actually remember that,
2
however, again, I would have – probably have that in my
3
email – he sent it to my personal email account.
4
know whether I responded or not.
5
MS HARRIS:
6
MR STECHER:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
9
10
So - - -
Is the Optusnet your personal email account?
Yes, it is.
And we can see that it’s from his personal email
account - - MR STECHER:
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
- - - as opposed to the Department of Education.
11
What he’s asking you to do there is to provide a
12
retrospective quote, isn’t he?
13
MR STECHER:
14
MS HARRIS:
15
MR STECHER:
16
17
18
MS HARRIS:
20
MS HARRIS:
23
I’m not sure.
Again, I can – I believe I should
Well, that would be something that’s quite – not
Absolutely not.
So that would be something you would remember,
isn’t it?
MR STECHER:
As I said, I – I don’t – I don’t recollect that
particular email so - - -
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
Did you do that?
in keeping with your practice?
MR STECHER:
22
Yes.
have that in my - - -
19
21
I don’t
Do you remember preparing a quote?
No.
And he’s directing you to date it a couple of
weeks prior to the invoice in August.
28
MR STECHER:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MR STECHER:
Mmm.
Is that right?
Yes.
Yes.
2211
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
MS HARRIS:
Why would you deliver it to – or have it sent to
his home address?
MR STECHER:
Well, it – it was probably – probably the – one
4
of his computers they use at home.
5
would provide computers – well, not quite often – every
6
couple – couple of years when he did his upgrades, we
7
provide computers for his home – home.
8
9
MS HARRIS:
But this quote that he’s requesting relates to the
notebook charged to Moonee Ponds - - -
10
MR STECHER:
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MR STECHER:
13
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
- - - in August 2005, doesn’t it?
Probably does, yes.
Well, he’s asking you to provide a quote for that
14
invoice.
15
ended up in his home?
16
So quite often we
MR STECHER:
Are you suggesting that that laptop might have
Yes.
Quite – quite possibly because he – he
17
actually worked from home.
18
perspective, it was – it was Department money.
19
I – when we – when I was doing work for him, I would set
20
his computers up so he could communicate with the
21
Department and – because I – I knew he did quite a lot of
22
work from home so I didn’t see anything particularly
23
untoward.
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
So again, from my
My – when
I tender that document, sir.
Yes.
No.
That’s part of 12A, that page?
That’s separate, sir.
If it can have its own
exhibit number, please.
28
MR O’BRYAN:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, yes, but is part of book 12A?
No, sorry.
The main court book, sir, page 34.
Is it – well, then, page 34 of book 1 will be
2212
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
exhibit 177.
2
EXHIBIT #177 PAGE 34 OF BOOK 1
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
5
MS HARRIS:
6
7
What’s the report that he’s referring to?
I don’t really recollect.
Did you prepare a report for Mr Napoli or for the
Department at any time?
MR STECHER:
I believe I did.
It’s something we would have on
8
record.
I just – I can’t really recollect.
I know that
9
I’ve done some reports for Nino on – at one stage it was
10
remote access for schools;
11
around schools wirelessly and that sort of thing.
12
were a couple of other reports I had been asked to do
13
over the years.
14
answer to that would be yes and I would have that
15
information in the system.
16
17
MS HARRIS:
providing access to people
There
I’m a bit hazy on that, but, yes, the
Did you have any – or did you provide any reports
in relation to the CASES21 system?
18
MR STECHER:
19
MS HARRIS:
20
MR STECHER:
Yes.
When was that?
We started working with CASES in the early ’90s
21
and over the years we consulted to a lot of schools on
22
what was called then SAS, School Accounting System, and
23
CAAS, which is the computer aided – I think it was a
24
student record system.
25
lot of schools on that.
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
30
We did a lot of consulting to a
Was Moonee Ponds West one of those schools?
I don’t believe so.
Have you ever worked for Encino Proprietary
Limited?
MR STECHER:
I know of Encino.
We may have done stuff for
2213
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
them.
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MR STECHER:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
10
..... being DyCom?
Yes.
Correct.
Did you ever work in conjunction with Encino to
prepare a report for schools?
6
9
I don’t recall.
Quite possibly.
Well, do you recall or not?
I don’t recall, no, but, again, that would be on
our systems as a record.
MS HARRIS:
Would you have a look at this, please.
11
Commissioner, this is a hard copy exhibit.
12
an electronic version and I just want to show the
13
witness.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
18
MS HARRIS:
19
It’s exhibit 116.
116.
No.
Is there a copy Mr Barns can see of 116?
There’s no copy, sir.
produced by a witness.
17
In court?
Correct.
It’s the – it was
There’s no copies.
In the hearing room?
If you just have a look, first of all,
at the front cover - - -
20
MR O’BRYAN:
21
MS HARRIS:
Sorry, Mr Barns.
I haven’t got one either.
- - - and then the next page, that purports to be
22
a report prepared or authored by you.
23
Encino’s name on it - - -
24
MR STECHER:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
There isn’t
It has also got
Yes.
- - - and it’s addressed to Tony Hilton at the
Moonee Ponds West Primary School.
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
MR STECHER:
30
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Did you author that report?
Yes.
It hasn’t been signed by you and it’s not dated.
2214
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
Are you able to say when that was?
2
MR STECHER:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
5
MS HARRIS:
6
It says here it was in 2003.
I think that was when the review was - - Okay.
- - - not necessarily when the report was.
Was
that prepared by you?
7
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you recognise the document?
8
MR STECHER:
Well, it’s on our – it looks like one of our
9
relatively standard documents.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
Take your time.
11
MR STECHER:
Okay.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
How, in summary, would you describe the report?
13
14
What is it a report into?
MR STECHER:
It’s – this looks about the time that they were
15
looking at upgrading their financial systems and this
16
report was a report on testing of the new systems, by the
17
looks of things.
18
MR O’BRYAN:
Who do you mean by “they”?
19
MR STECHER:
The Department of Education.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
21
MR STECHER:
Sorry?
22
MR O’BRYAN:
What did you say, it’s a report into what?
23
MR STECHER:
The new software that they were developing.
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
25
Well, do you – and it’s a report into?
So you’ve had a bit of a look through it.
Do you recognise the document?
26
MR STECHER:
Actually, I don’t.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
You don’t.
28
MS HARRIS:
29
30
Okay.
If you had prepared that report, would you have
ordinarily signed it - - MR STECHER:
Yes.
2215
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MS HARRIS:
2
MR STECHER:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
5
6
- - - and dated it?
Actually, no, not necessarily.
No to which, the date or the signature?
Normally I would date things.
I wouldn’t
necessarily sign them.
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, had you prepared it or been involved in its
7
preparation, would you expect to remember that now that
8
you’ve looked at it?
9
MR STECHER:
Yes, I would.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
No.
11
MR STECHER:
- - - but I don’t recollect this particular
12
13
I did do this type of thing - - -
I understand.
document.
MR O’BRYAN:
Okay.
But you would expect to remember, and so
14
I’m taking it that you don’t think you were involved in
15
that document – in its preparation?
16
17
MR STECHER:
Again, what I would like to do is – if I have
done this, I would have it on my system.
18
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
19
MR STECHER:
So - - -
20
MR O’BRYAN:
But at the moment, we’re just going by your
21
I understand.
recollection - - -
22
MR STECHER:
Yes.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
- - - and your recollection – you don’t have a
24
recollection of being involved?
25
MR STECHER:
No.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
All right.
27
MS HARRIS:
I will have that handed back, please.
On the
28
front cover, it indicates that it has been prepared by
29
Encino.
30
MR STECHER:
Yes.
2216
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MS HARRIS:
Why would that be the case if you’ve authored a
report?
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MR STECHER:
6
MS HARRIS:
7
MR STECHER:
Can you offer an explanation about that?
Well, Encino was like a consulting company.
What did Encino do, do you know?
Not very much, to my knowledge.
What type of work?
I really don’t know.
They were – to my
8
knowledge, they were like some sort of a consulting
9
company.
10
11
12
at all.
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
14
MS HARRIS:
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
18
You indicated a few moments ago that you think you
might have done some work with them.
13
17
I don’t know whether they really did very much
Yes.
What type of work was that?
I really don’t know.
Well, you would know if you were involved with
some work, wouldn’t you, Mr Stecher?
MR STECHER:
Yes.
Again, it could have been anybody in the
19
business that could have done that and, again, we would
20
have records of that work.
21
MS HARRIS:
22
MR STECHER:
Did you personally work with Encino?
Quite possibly.
I’ve known of the name Encino
23
for 25-odd years, so over the years there’s possibly
24
something that was done by us, yes.
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
27
MS HARRIS:
28
MR STECHER:
29
30
And what kind of work would that have been?
Probably consulting or something like that.
What does that mean?
Could be something like preparing a report
similar to that one.
MS HARRIS:
Could be or was?
2217
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
2
MS HARRIS:
3
4
I can’t say.
Mr Stecher, on your oath, did you do any work with
Encino, you personally?
MR STECHER:
I can’t recollect whether I did or not.
5
imagine that we did.
6
was one of Carlo’s companies.
7
them for many years.
8
9
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MR STECHER:
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
We did work with – for Cobra Motors, for
example.
14
over the years.
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR STECHER:
So we have done quite a lot of work for him
Yes.
And in relation to Encino?
I can’t recollect.
I recollect doing stuff, but
I can’t recollect what it was.
MS HARRIS:
19
that?
20
MR STECHER:
21
We’ve been dealing with
And you would recall, wouldn’t you, if you were
13
18
I’ve been dealing with this – that
working with your good friend, Mr Squillacioti?
10
17
I
If you recollect doing stuff, roughly when was
It would have been quite some years ago now.
It
would have to be more than 10, 12 years ago, I would say.
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR STECHER:
And what kind of stuff do you recall doing?
I don’t.
Was it computer stuff?
Well, it’s likely to have been related to things
26
that we were doing for the Department, yes, so computer
27
or technology.
28
29
30
MS HARRIS:
So your belief is that you worked together for
work for the Department?
MR STECHER:
Yes.
2218
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MS HARRIS:
2
MR STECHER:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
5
MS HARRIS:
6
MR STECHER:
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
Possibly on reports?
Yes.
On how many occasions?
I don’t know.
More than one?
Quite possibly, yes.
the stuff on record;
MR O’BRYAN:
Again, that – I have all of
anything we’ve done for Encino.
Well, how did it come about that you did work for
– or with Encino for the Department?
What was the
process that led up to that?
MR STECHER:
thing.
MS HARRIS:
I have to say that I’m very hazy on that whole
It was quite a while ago.
What role did Mr Squillacioti play when you worked
together?
MR STECHER:
With Encino I’m talking about.
Okay.
Well, Carlo also did work for the
16
Department at different times.
I know he organised
17
printing, things like that, and - - -
18
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, hang on.
19
MR STECHER:
Yes.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
What contact, if any, did you have with Carlo in
21
22
Just stick to the question.
respect of any work that you did in relation to Encino?
MR STECHER:
Well, Carlo was one of – one of the principals.
23
I don’t recollect specific conversations or anything like
24
that.
25
26
MS HARRIS:
with him on something?
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
30
Do you recall working with him personally, as in
I don’t recall, no.
That’s something you would remember, isn’t it, Mr
Stecher, working with a good friend of yours?
MR STECHER:
I’ve worked with Carlo on many – many things over
2219
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
the years.
2
of the work I’ve done with him is his own workshop.
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
5
MS HARRIS:
I don’t recall any specific instances.
Most
That’s at Cobra Motors, is it?
Correct, yes.
I will ask you about that in a moment.
To the
6
best of your recollection were there any other invoices
7
to Moonee Ponds West Primary School?
8
9
10
11
MR STECHER:
No.
Well, I don’t recollect.
I don’t – I’ve
never had anything to do with Moonee Ponds Primary School
personally.
MS HARRIS:
12
book.
13
MR O’BRYAN:
14
MS HARRIS:
Could we have page 74, please, of the same court
This is exhibit 119, Commissioner.
Thank you.
Dated 19 December 2007, tax invoice 11328.
If we
15
can scroll down to the principal at Moonee Ponds West
16
Primary School.
17
able to decipher that for us?
18
equate to computers?
19
MR STECHER:
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MR STECHER:
Yes.
Quite an extensive description.
Does that essentially
So it looks like a – an IBM PC.
Yes.
Obviously the memory inside.
And there’s an
22
upgrade to the warranty.
23
Windows and it has got an external hard drive.
24
MS HARRIS:
Are you
It has also got Microsoft
And this time there is a delivery and testing
25
freight charge.
26
were delivered?
Are you able to say where those goods
27
MR STECHER:
No.
28
MS HARRIS:
29
MR STECHER:
Correct.
30
MR O’BRYAN:
Can we scroll right to the bottom so that the
But that’s a record that you would have?
2220
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
witness can see the whole document, thank you.
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
And that’s for $4237.
Yes.
Could we look at page 73, please.
Thank you.
Can we just
5
scroll down a little.
An email from George,
6
again, this time to Karen Peter on 19 December 2007:
7
Hi Karen.
8
relating to Nino Napoli’s purchase of two notebooks.
9
10
Please find attached DyCom invoice 13228
Do you know if that was for his private use?
MR STECHER:
I doubt if it would have been two.
There were
11
possibly one for his private use, but I wouldn’t expect
12
there would be two.
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MR STECHER:
Why not?
And when I say “private use”, he – he – private –
15
you know, obviously company use.
16
used to use his company notebook, so.
17
recollect him having more than one notebook in his house.
18
19
20
MS HARRIS:
Because he had – he
I don’t ever
What about other members of his family?
Did they
use those kind of computers?
MR STECHER:
I don’t know.
Quite possibly.
Not that I’m
21
aware that we supplied any to his – other members of his
22
family.
23
24
25
MS HARRIS:
And not that you’ve seen when you’ve visited or
anything along those lines?
MR STECHER:
Well, when I’ve visited he has had one notebook
26
and one PC on his desk, and both of those are connected
27
to the Department of Education because I personally was
28
involved in setting up the connection between his home
29
and the Department.
30
MS HARRIS:
And which type of notebook was that, do you
2221
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
recall?
2
MR STECHER:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
5
6
That probably would have been an IBM.
And when was that?
I believe – I recollect probably every three
years or so we used to do upgrades, or thereabouts.
MS HARRIS:
Yes, but when was it that you went into his home
7
to set it up for him to be able to communicate with the
8
Department?
9
MR STECHER:
Probably – I used to go in there on average once
10
or twice a year.
11
connections.
12
Sometimes there were issues with viruses.
13
different things.
14
there was something that needed to be done.
15
MS HARRIS:
Quite often there were issues with
Sometimes there were issues with backup.
So various
There was generally when I visited,
In 2005, in June 2005, there seemed to be email
16
exchanges between Steve Metter – and he’s someone you’ve
17
indicated was at your office at time?
18
MR STECHER:
19
MS HARRIS:
Correct.
And Karen Peter, who we just saw in relation to
20
that email, at the Department of Education, in relation
21
to leasing three notebooks.
22
problem with that arrangement, and it was an arrangement
23
that you and Mr Napoli had discussed.
24
shed some light on that?
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
And there seemed to be some
Are you able to
No.
Is it the case, Mr Stecher, that no agreement
27
could be reached in relation to that leasing agreement
28
and so Moonee Ponds West and Essendon North were invoiced
29
for those three laptops in August?
30
MR O’BRYAN:
Just stopping there.
Do you have a recollection
2222
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
of a leasing arrangement being discussed between you and
2
Mr Napoli?
3
MR STECHER:
Yes, I do have a recollection.
4
MR O’BRYAN:
Okay.
5
And do you have a recollection of that
falling through and a need to invoice schools instead?
6
MR STECHER:
Quite possibly, yes.
7
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, when you say “quite possibly”, do you have
8
9
10
a recollection of that?
MR STECHER:
Yes.
I – I – I do recollect something like that,
Yes.
Thank you.
yes.
11
MR O’BRYAN:
12
MS HARRIS:
Thank you, Commissioner.
Is that how it came
13
about, then, that Moonee Ponds West and Essendon North
14
were invoiced for the three laptops?
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
18
MS HARRIS:
I believe so, yes.
Yes.
So you do recall those transactions now?
Yes.
Has DyCom provided any service – you’ve indicated
19
that you’ve dealt with Carlo Squillacioti.
20
his brother Luigi also?
21
MR STECHER:
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
Did you know
Yes.
Are you aware of what companies they ran together?
Yes.
More – more recently because of what I’ve
24
read in the transcripts and things.
25
that was – I think it was Bammington and Encino.
26
27
28
MS HARRIS:
But I’m aware of two
So you say that Carlo and Luigi had something to
do with Bammington, do you?
MR STECHER:
I think so.
Lou actually – or Luigi, I wasn’t
29
aware of his involvement with anything, to be honest with
30
you.
I didn’t have a lot of dealing with him.
2223
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MR O’BRYAN:
Sorry, before we go into this topic, I will just
interrupt, Ms Harris.
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
A leasing arrangement like that strikes me as
5
something to be likely to relate to personal use
6
computers and nothing to do with the Department.
7
that your understanding at the time?
8
9
10
11
MR STECHER:
No.
Was
No, we do offer leasing to anybody that
wants to make a capital purchase.
MR O’BRYAN:
But were you discussing leasing arrangements in
the context of the Department leasing computers?
12
MR STECHER:
I would say most likely, yes.
13
MR O’BRYAN:
It strikes me as an odd situation, with a
14
Department with, you know, quite high funding and this
15
relatively low purchase, that the Department would be
16
leasing computers.
17
18
MR STECHER:
Quite – quite often they would do that.
We do
that quite a lot with schools.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
20
MR STECHER:
Sometimes they’ve got a – they’ve got – got a
21
certain amount of capital expenditure and they look at
22
putting it in their operational expenditure.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
What about the Department itself, head office?
24
Have you had any – have you got any knowledge of the
25
Department ever leasing computers for use by its
26
executives?
27
28
29
30
MR STECHER:
Not really.
Again, I didn’t really get involved
in that side of things.
MR O’BRYAN:
No.
But it wouldn’t surprise me.
Well, hang on.
I’m asking you do you have
any knowledge, not what might or might not happen.
2224
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Okay.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
You’ve got no direct of knowledge of leasing
3
arrangements in that sense having been entered into?
4
MR STECHER:
I don’t recall anything, no.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
6
MS HARRIS:
Just in following on from the Commissioner’s
7
question, can we have page 7, please of court book 27.
8
If we could just scroll down, please, further, thank you,
9
to the bottom.
A bit further.
Thank you.
An email from
10
Steve Metter, dated 29 June 2005, to Karen Peter at the
11
Department of Education:
12
13
Hi Karen.
Mark Stecher has informed that DEET –
which it was at that time –
14
will not be paying out the laptops, and that the
15
lease HP must proceed.
16
delivery of the three notebooks and that the bags are
17
back order –
I’m aware that you’ve taken
18
etcetera.
19
Department wanting to lease laptops?
20
laptops.
21
MR STECHER:
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
25
26
Sorry, lease – yes,
Didn’t you?
Yes.
And you conveyed your knowledge to Steve Metter.
Yes.
Yes.
Which is not very consistent with the evidence you
just gave the Commissioner, is it?
MR STECHER:
27
yes.
28
MS HARRIS:
29
MR STECHER:
30
So you did have some knowledge, then, of the
Right.
I have to say it was 10 years ago and –
And if we can just scroll up, please. to the top.
I do have a recollection of this – this – some of
the issues we had around this particular one.
2225
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MS HARRIS:
Can you just stop there.
From Steve Metter on 8
July to Karen Peter:
3
Thanks, Karen.
As you already have the notebooks and
4
we’re already paying for these, and have paid to get
5
the account established from a commercial and
6
financial perspective, I need to resolve this now as
7
a matter of urgency.
8
So those notebooks had been delivered to the Department.
9
Is that right?
10
MR STECHER:
11
MS HARRIS:
I believe so, yes.
And this relates back to my question before.
12
These three notebooks were ultimately the notebooks paid
13
for by Monee Ponds West Primary School and Essendon North
14
Primary School, weren’t they?
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
I believe so.
Yes.
I tender that page, sir.
book 27.
18
MR O’BRYAN:
19
EXHIBIT #178 PAGE 7 OF COURT BOOK 27
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MR STECHER:
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
All right.
Well, that will be exhibit 178.
In relation to – have you heard of Cobra Motors?
Yes.
And who is involved in Cobra Motors?
Carlo Squillacioti, Lu Squillacioti, Vince – I’m
24
not too sure of his surname.
25
people that I know there.
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
MR STECHER:
30
Page 7 of court
They’re the main three
Carlo and Lu are the directors.
Is that right?
Yes.
What services has DyCom provided to Cobra Motors?
Mostly computer support, and sometimes computer
hardware.
2226
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MS HARRIS:
2
MR STECHER:
3
4
5
MS HARRIS:
7
MS HARRIS:
10
11
MR STECHER:
MS HARRIS:
Correct.
So you personally were providing services prior to
Is that right?
Yes.
We’ve already discussed Encino.
Are you aware of
a company called Quill Proprietary Limited?
MR STECHER:
13
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Have you done any work with them?
By you, I mean
DyCom.
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
I thought your evidence was DyCom came into
that time.
12
14
Probably back to 1978
existence in 1989.
MR STECHER:
9
Most likely prior to that.
or thereabouts.
6
8
Does that date back to 1989?
I’m not sure about that.
What about Customer Training and Consulting, has
DyCom provided services to that company?
18
MR STECHER:
19
MS HARRIS:
I’m not sure.
Are you aware that that company – sorry, I
20
withdraw that.
21
Squillacioti are also directors of Customer Training and
22
Consulting?
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
Are you aware that Carlo and Luigi
Not .....
It’s a company you’ve heard of before, isn’t it?
Yes.
In fact, it had the same registered business
address as DyCom at one point, didn’t it?
28
MR STECHER:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MR STECHER:
Yes.
In bell Street, Preston.
Yes.
2227
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MS HARRIS:
2
MR STECHER:
3
Why is that?
Well, Carlo asked if we could get his mail and
register a company, like a – like a virtual office.
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MR STECHER:
6
MS HARRIS:
7
MR STECHER:
And you did that?
Yes.
When was that, what year?
It would have been between – somewhere between
8
2000 – 2012, I’m not too sure exactly when it was.
9
Probably around about two thousand and ..... or
10
11
12
thereabouts.
MS HARRIS:
running.
13
MR STECHER:
14
MS HARRIS:
15
At that stage they already had Cobra Motors
Yes.
Did they offer an explanation as to why they
wanted to register the office with your company?
16
MR STECHER:
17
MS HARRIS:
18
MR STECHER:
No.
Did you ask?
No.
We have a few people who have done that.
19
They use our office for meeting rooms and collecting mail
20
and parcels and things like that.
21
22
MS HARRIS:
And they have their registered business address
there?
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
No.
So Customer Training and Consulting is the only
25
company that has asked to have their registered business
26
address at DyCom?
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Did you personally ever work for any of the
29
Squillacioti companies?
By that I mean Cobra Motors,
30
Encino, Quill, Customer Training and Consulting, as an
2228
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
employee?
2
MR STECHER:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
5
6
You don’t know, do you, who does the accounting
for their companies?
MR STECHER:
No, but we did some accounting work for the
companies just recently.
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
9
No.
We being DyCom?
DyCom.
We’ve got an outsourcing division.
They
had a bunch of paperwork that dated back to about – I
10
think 1990 or thereabouts.
11
scanning all that paperwork and producing computerised
12
reports for them.
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MR STECHER:
15
So we undertook the job of
That was - - -
What form did those reports take?
They were – presented back in their Excel
spreadsheets.
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
How did you get that job?
Because we have an outsourcing company, and that
18
was the most cost effective way to do that work.
19
went offshore to the Philippines.
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MR STECHER:
22
MS HARRIS:
23
Did that relate to the IBAC investigation?
It was prior to that but, yes.
Sorry, so you were engaged to do that work prior
to becoming aware of the IBAC investigation.
24
MR STECHER:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
Correct.
So when were you engaged to do that?
It would have been probably last October or
27
thereabouts.
28
related to that.
29
30
So that
MS HARRIS:
Again, we have all the records, everything
When did you become aware of the IBAC
investigation, Mr Stecher?
2229
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
I believe it was around about – when I first
2
received that – that summons, about March.
3
talk – talk prior to that.
4
exactly when it was.
5
Christmas time, or before.
6
MS HARRIS:
7
MR STECHER:
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MR STECHER:
10
MS HARRIS:
11
MR STECHER:
12
MS HARRIS:
13
MR STECHER:
14
MS HARRIS:
There was
So I – I’m not too sure
It was probably maybe around about
Christmas time 2014?
Yes, yes.
But certainly not much earlier than that.
I don’t believe so.
No.
Has DyCom done a lot of business with Encino?
Not that I can recollect.
Any big contracts with Encino?
Not that I can recollect.
Can we look at page 35 of the main court book,
15
please.
This is an email from Cobra Motors to Steve at
16
DyCom, cc to you, on 2 March 2006.
17
Encino blank invoice and it’s Carlo – it’s from Carlo,
18
and he says:
The attachment is an
19
Please send me a copy when completed.
20
Carlo.
21
22
23
24
Regards,
Why would Cobra be sending DyCom a blank Encino invoice?
MR STECHER:
I’m not really sure, actually.
Obviously they
wanted to put something on it.
MS HARRIS:
And if we go to the next page, page 36, that’s the
25
attachment, if we can scroll down, the blank Encino
26
invoice.
27
28
MR STECHER:
What was that about?
It just looks like the – we made up a letterhead
or something for them.
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
MS HARRIS:
Can we just go back to the last document.
Page 35.
2230
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, it’s the other way around.
you their blank invoice, aren’t they?
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
Why would you be completing - - Just – just – they’re – it’s the other way
5
around.
6
their blank invoice.
You weren’t – it reads as though were being sent
7
MR STECHER:
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MR O’BRYAN:
Does it not?
10
MR STECHER:
It does, yes.
11
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
12
They’re sending
Yes, it does.
Yes.
It doesn’t read as though you were creating
it for them.
13
MR STECHER:
That we were – no, correct.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, right.
15
MR STECHER:
It actually looks very much like one of the ones
I’m sorry, Ms Harris.
16
we created.
17
That’s – that’s kind of our standard format in the – from
18
those days.
19
20
MS HARRIS:
That’s – I guess that’s why I said that.
Did you complete an invoice and send it back to
them on their own invoice letterhead?
21
MR STECHER:
22
MS HARRIS:
I don’t – I don’t recall.
It would be a very unusual thing to do, wouldn’t
23
it, to fill out your own invoice as a client and send it
24
back to the supplier?
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
Yes.
You would recall it, wouldn’t you, Mr Stecher, as
a business man?
28
MR STECHER:
I don’t – I don’t recall, no.
29
MR O’BRYAN:
Did that ever happen, to your knowledge, that at
30
your end Encino invoices were filled out and sent back?
2231
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
MR STECHER:
It’s possible.
I really don’t – I don’t – I
really don’t recall.
MS HARRIS:
The date on that, if we can go back to the email,
4
please, page 35, is 2 March 2006.
Did you do any work
5
around that time with Encino, you being DyCom?
6
MR STECHER:
I don’t – don’t recall.
7
MR O’BRYAN:
Why do you say it was possible that happened?
8
MR STECHER:
Well, I guess I’m – I’m looking at what’s here
9
10
11
12
and it’s – something must have happened, but I just don’t
recall.
MR O’BRYAN:
What reasons can you think of would there be for
that to happen?
13
MR STECHER:
I – I’m not sure.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
Why would then – why would the email be going to
15
Steve?
So who’s Steve again?
16
MR STECHER:
Steve’s our general manager.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
What’s his surname?
18
MR STECHER:
Metter.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
And why would it be that an email like this went
20
21
22
23
to your general manager CC you?
MR STECHER:
I’m really not sure.
It’s – that’s - you know, I
just don’t recollect this to be honest.
MS HARRIS:
Could we have page 3 of court book 27, please?
24
I’m sorry, I am reminded I should tender those two
25
documents, Commissioner, page 35 and 36 of the main court
26
book.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
28
EXHIBIT # 179 PAGE 36 and 36 OF MAIN COURT BOOK.
29
MS HARRIS:
30
Yes.
Well, they will be marked exhibit 179.
This relates to Encino Proprietary Limited and
invoices that they wrote between 1 January 1990 and 1
2232
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
August 2007.
2
it shows on 24 April 2006 an invoice was sent to the
3
DyCom Business Systems, computer services for $68,200.
4
What did that relate to?
5
MR STECHER:
If we got down to the highlighted entry,
I believe – OK, I remember this one now.
We were
6
looking at raising some finance.
We owned – one of our
7
companies, DyCom Business Systems owned a number of
8
Kaseya licences – Kaseya was a managed services product.
9
So we owned that, and we wanted to re-lease those
10
licences.
11
of our other companies.
12
was why Steve Metter was included in that email, because
13
he was the one that organise that.
14
those licenses.
15
other businesses, and during that – and that enabled us
16
to raise some finance to pay for those two – to operate
17
the business.
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MR STECHER:
So we ended up selling them via Cobra to one
The actual details – and that
So we actually owned
They ended up getting sold to one of our
Hang on, so what business - - It ended up being bought by DyCom Wireless, so
20
those licenses are actually owned now by DyCom Wireless
21
Solutions.
22
that we needed.
23
MS HARRIS:
24
MR STECHER:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
27
MS HARRIS:
28
So it was a way of us raising some funding
And we leased those - - -
But you have paid that money to Encino.
Yes.
Yes.
So that wouldn’t raise money for you.
And then - - Are you suggesting that Encino then paid that
money back to DyCom?
29
MR STECHER:
30
MS HARRIS:
Correct.
Yes.
So what services were provided by Encino to DyCom
2233
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
Business Systems?
MR STECHER:
Nothing.
They were just a transition, so I can’t
3
recollect exactly how it was done.
The licenses ended up
4
being leased.
5
company to purchase those licenses back.
We raised money through a ..... leasing
6
MR O’BRYAN:
Are we talking about a sham transaction?
7
MR STECHER:
It was – well, I don’t think it was a sham
8
transaction.
It was a transaction to raise finance,
9
which we have actually subsequently paid.
So we borrowed
10
money from a leasing company, and we were just
11
transferring licenses from one company to another.
12
13
14
MR O’BRYAN:
Were these documents – was the Encino invoice and
the payment needed to show the leasing company?
MR STECHER:
Look, I believe it was that.
I personally didn’t
15
have a lot of involvement in that particular thing, but
16
we have got everything on record in relation to that.
17
18
MR O’BRYAN:
And was the leasing company not aware of the fact
that the money was paid back to your company by Encino?
19
MR STECHER:
I’m not sure how it all happened.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, is that your belief?
I mean, it’s sounding
21
like a sham transaction which occurred to help obtain
22
money from a leasing company.
23
to me.
That’s how it is sounding
24
MR STECHER:
Yes, ..... doesn’t.
I don’t believe ..... - - -
25
MR O’BRYAN:
Is that what it was?
26
MR STECHER:
I don’t believe it was a sham, no.
Again,
27
without – I can’t recollect the actual mechanics of the
28
whole transaction.
29
record, and it’s quite well documented, so we can get
30
that.
We certainly have got all that on
2234
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MS HARRIS:
So that blank invoice sent to you by Encino was
2
for the purpose of writing an invoice for $68,200, was
3
it?
4
MR STECHER:
5
MS HARRIS:
6
MR STECHER:
7
That’s what it looks like, yes.
That DyCom then paid to Encino?
Yes.
So it was an in-and-out transaction.
I
don’t think – Encino - - -
8
MS HARRIS:
And then Encino paid it back to DyCom?
9
MR STECHER:
Something like that, yes.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
How quickly was the money paid back?
11
MR STECHER:
I would say it was very quickly.
We were in a
12
situation where the company were unable to pay wages and
13
we needed to raise money very quickly, so I think it
14
happened within days.
15
MR O’BRYAN:
Within days?
16
MR STECHER:
I believe so.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
Just to be clear here, what’s your belief about
18
whether the leasing company was aware that the money was
19
paid back within days?
20
MR STECHER:
21
- - -
22
MR O’BRYAN:
The leasing company we paid back over a number of
No, no, no.
What – in terms – this transaction
23
that – the tail end of it involved the money being paid
24
back by Encino to your company, right?
25
MR STECHER:
Yes.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
27
Within a few days the money was paid by
Encino back to your company?
28
MR STECHER:
I think so, yes.
29
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, that’s what you’re saying.
30
MR STECHER:
Yes.
I just ..... remember it being - - 2235
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR O’BRYAN:
You know a lot more than I do about this.
2
MR STECHER:
Yes.
3
MR O’BRYAN:
Is it the case in your belief that the leasing
Yes.
4
company wasn’t aware of the money being paid back to your
5
company by Encino?
6
MR STECHER:
I’m not too sure why they would need to know
7
that.
8
term relationship – or repayment scheme with the leasing
9
company.
..... the leasing company – we engaged in a long-
10
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
11
MR STECHER:
Over years.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, they may not have needed to know that.
13
I take it that they probably weren’t told that because
14
they didn’t need to know that?
Do
15
MR STECHER:
Most likely.
16
MR O’BRYAN:
All right.
17
MR STECHER:
Again, I didn’t get involved in the mechanics of
18
this transaction, so I don’t really understand how it all
19
worked.
20
21
MR O’BRYAN:
I just recollect now.
So – well, then is it your general manager who
would know more?
22
MR STECHER:
Yes.
As I said - - -
23
MR O’BRYAN:
He’s still there, is he?
24
MR STECHER:
Yes, yes.
25
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, Ms Harris.
26
MS HARRIS:
At your – at DyCom?
He’s still available.
Could we look at page 24 of court book 23, please?
27
24 please, of court book 23.
This is an Encino bank
28
statement.
29
April, and it indicates there’s – the third reference
30
there, a payment to DyCom Equipment, $68,200.
If we could just go down, please, to 26
2236
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Is that
M.G. STECHER
1
the turnaround you’re indicating?
2
MR STECHER:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
Yes.
Why would Encino do that on behalf of DyCom?
Again, I would have to refer to Steve Metter for
5
the mechanics of this whole transaction.
6
raise money, and that was ..... method we did .....
7
would actually have that – the mechanics of all of that
8
fairly well documented.
9
MS HARRIS:
We needed to
He
And I should indicate while the statement is up
10
there, you can see the credit on 24 April in the amount
11
of $68,200.
12
MR STECHER:
Where did the $68,200 come from?
Well, that was – yes, okay, so as it says there,
13
it came from the Bank of Queensland who was the – thank
14
you – the organisation that we got the loan from.
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR STECHER:
What was the loan for?
The loan was for Kaseya licences.
Kaseya was a
17
our managed services system.
18
over the years for that, so we actually loaned the
19
licenses.
20
that we had.
21
MS HARRIS:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
We ..... about $300,000
So we were borrowing against that – that asset
Yes.
Yes.
I tender those two documents, Commissioner.
So just to be clear, you got the money -
23
the loan money from the Bank of Queensland, is that
24
right?
25
MR STECHER:
Yes.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
And they paid that money directly into Encino’s
27
account?
28
MR STECHER:
Yes.
29
MR O’BRYAN:
And then Encino paid it back to you a couple of
30
days later?
2237
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Correct.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
To your company.
3
book 27, Ms Harris?
4
23?
5
MS HARRIS:
6
MR O’BRYAN:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR O’BRYAN:
9
Right, so we have got page 3 of
And we have got back page 24 of book
Yes, Commissioner.
Do you want them as the one exhibit?
Yes, please.
All right.
Well, they will both be marked
exhibit 180.
10
EXHIBIT #180 PAGE 3 OF BOOK 27 AND PAGE 24 OF BOOK 23.
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MR STECHER:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
What is Fibre Art Proprietary Limited?
Sorry?
Fibre Art Proprietary Limited?
Have you heard of
that before?
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
18
MS HARRIS:
No.
It’s not a name that is familiar to you?
No.
It seems that DyCom and the Squillacioti brothers
19
trading as Cobra Motors did a lot of business together
20
between May 2009 and April 2014.
21
what that was?
22
23
MR O’BRYAN:
Can you elaborate on
Do you have a recollection of that?
Do you agree
with that?
24
MR STECHER:
Quite possibly.
25
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
26
MR STECHER:
I believe - - -
27
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, can you talk us through that work?
28
MR STECHER:
No.
29
30
We did quite a lot of work.
I mean, I – I – I – without my records, I
don’t – don’t know.
MS HARRIS:
Well, what – first of all, if I can indicate that
2238
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
there were 27 transactions between DyCom and the
2
Squillacioti brothers trading as Cobra Motors.
3
DyCom $4263 in that period of time.
4
services would DyCom have provided the Squillacioti
5
brothers over that period of time?
6
MR STECHER:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
9
10
11
12
They paid
What type of
Sorry – sorry, between when?
May 2009 and April 2014.
Most of it would have been, I would imagine,
computer support and possibly some hardware type
transactions.
MS HARRIS:
And DyCom paid the Squillacioti brothers
$22,009.40.
What services did they provide to DyCom?
13
MR STECHER:
They – they serviced my vehicles.
14
MS HARRIS:
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MR STECHER:
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MR STECHER:
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
24
work.
25
I would think.
26
she asked me to do some backups of her system because she
27
was aware that she was going to be investigated and
28
wanted to have – make sure her data was secure.
29
think I visited her twice and did – organised backups for
30
her.
How many vehicles?
We have about five that they – that they work on.
Yes.
Any other services provided to DyCom?
Not – not that I recollect, no.
Have you done any work with On The Ball Personnel?
Yes.
So you know Sharon Vandermeer?
Yes.
What work have you done with On The Ball?
We did – probably in the early 1990s, we did some
I got no idea what it was.
It was pretty minimal,
And last year, probably about October,
2239
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
So I
M.G. STECHER
1
MS HARRIS:
2
IBAC?
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MR STECHER:
So when you say “investigated”, do you mean by
Yes.
What did she say to you about that?
She just said she was concerned.
She wanted to
6
make sure she had – had – had her stuff backed up because
7
there had been some experiences of the computers being
8
seized and coming back and not operating, so she wanted
9
to make sure she was backed up and also being able to
10
continue her business because once the computers were
11
seized, they didn’t come back for some months and so she
12
needed to continue to run her business.
13
14
MS HARRIS:
Did you remove anything from her computer?
Any
data or information?
15
MR STECHER:
I don’t believe so.
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
18
MS HARRIS:
Not something that was outsourced to someone else?
19
MR STECHER:
It was only a – I think I met her twice and we –
Was it you that worked on it yourself?
Yes.
20
we were looking at – at basically providing a service but
21
she decided not to proceed so, yes - - -
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
24
Why was it you that looked after her computer?
Probably because she was the one that I knew and
so when she - - -
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
Sorry, I missed that.
She was the one that I knew and so I was the one
27
that she knew, so she called me and so I just went in
28
there and – and when I – when she told me what she
29
wanted, I just did it then – then and there.
30
wasn’t – it wasn’t a big job.
So it
It wasn’t really worth
2240
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
getting remote access and giving it to anybody else to do
2
it at that point.
3
actually, no.
4
the setups and backups.
5
6
7
MS HARRIS:
That was the next stage I had – sorry,
I did have one of my staff remotely access
Did you have any discussions with Sharon
Vandermeer about the IBAC investigation?
MR STECHER:
I don’t think we were aware of IBAC – we were
8
aware of the investigation.
9
name at that time but, yes – yes - - -
10
MS HARRIS:
I hadn’t – hadn’t heard the
Were you aware of whether any search warrants had
11
been executed at that time that you went to see Ms
12
Vandermeer?
13
MR STECHER:
No, no.
In fact, she told me, “Look, there’s –
14
there’s really nothing I’m concerned about.
15
to make sure my business can continue to – to operate in
16
case the computers get taken.”
17
MS HARRIS:
I just want
But - - -
You indicated earlier that you have been helping
18
the Squillacioti’s with some of their computer work and
19
some of it was sent to the Philippines.
20
MR STECHER:
21
MS HARRIS:
22
MR STECHER:
Mm.
Specifically, what was sent to the Philippines?
A lot of – a – a heap of bank statements and
23
things like that.
24
electronic statements where they could and the bank – the
25
statements that they couldn’t get an electronic version
26
of, we scanned and sent that – that to the Philippines
27
and then they turn that into – into profit and loss
28
statements for the years from about 1992 through to the
29
current.
30
MR STECHER:
So some of them – we helped them get
I think they were bank statements and things like
2241
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
that.
2
statements where they could and the bank – the statements
3
that they couldn’t get an electronic version of, we
4
scanned and sent that to the Philippines and then they
5
turned that into profit and loss statements for the years
6
from about 1992 through until the current.
7
8
9
10
11
MS HARRIS:
So some of them – we helped them get electronic
At that time when – well, first of all, when were
you approached to do that work?
MR STECHER:
I believe it was somewhere around about
September, October last year.
MS HARRIS:
Were you aware of the IBAC investigation at that
12
time?
13
MR STECHER:
No.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
Or an investigation?
15
MR STECHER:
Sorry?
16
MR O’BRYAN:
Or an investigation - - -
17
MS HARRIS:
18
MR O’BRYAN:
- - - leaving aside who was investigating?
19
MR STECHER:
Yes.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
You were aware of one when they approached you?
21
MR STECHER:
Yes.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
And was the request connected with the
23
Yes.
Thank you.
investigation?
24
MR STECHER:
Yes.
25
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MR STECHER:
What did they specifically say to you?
They just wanted all of their reports set up with
28
profit and loss statements so they could actually see –
29
match the bank statements to the P and L for the
30
business.
2242
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MS HARRIS:
2
MR STECHER:
Why did they need you to do that?
Again, because we have an outsourcing team which
3
they can get that done for $10 an hour as opposed to
4
paying local people here to do that for – ..... pay 60 to
5
$80 an hour, so it was a low cost alternative.
6
7
8
9
MS HARRIS:
have profit and loss statements prepared?
MR STECHER:
why.
11
MS HARRIS:
13
Well, a lot of it was paperwork, and it was paper
copies and that sort of thing, so I didn’t really ask
10
12
Did they explain to you why they didn’t already
They just wanted it all to be electronic, so.
And what did they say particularly about either
the IBAC investigation or an investigation?
MR STECHER:
Well, they were just concerned that when – at
14
that time, they were quite aware that they were under
15
investigation, or going to be investigated, and they
16
wanted to get all of their facts and figures in a method
17
that would be – could be reasonably representing what
18
they needed to represent.
19
MS HARRIS:
20
MR STECHER:
21
MS HARRIS:
To explain transactions, is that what you mean?
Well, yes.
So that was September/October.
That’s a little
22
bit earlier than the December date you gave us before.
23
Would that have been the first time you were aware of the
24
IBAC or an investigation?
25
MR STECHER:
I don’t recollect when the first time.
26
this is – yes.
27
time I was aware of it.
28
29
30
MR O’BRYAN:
No.
I think
I can’t really recollect the first
Did they tell you what they thought was being
investigated as it concerned them?
MR STECHER:
There was some – the only thing they seemed to be
2243
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
interested in – the work that we did and that – was just
2
the printing – there was some printing works that had
3
been done, but all we were asked to do was just provide
4
that in Excel spreadsheets - - -
5
MR O’BRYAN:
What did they tell you about the printing works?
6
MR STECHER:
Just that that was the main issue, because there
7
had been – on the handwritten copies there were notes
8
that were made and they just told us to make sure that
9
those notes were transcribed onto the Excel spreadsheets
10
we produced with particular focus on the printing.
11
MR O’BRYAN:
Whose handwriting was on the notes?
12
MR STECHER:
I’m not sure whose that was.
13
14
15
16
It wasn’t very good
handwriting, but I don’t know whose it was.
MR O’BRYAN:
When you say “notes”, what sort of notes are you
talking about?
MR STECHER:
Little sticky notes like that?
No, no, no.
They were – it was actually a
17
photocopy of the bank statements and just handwriting on
18
the bank statements.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
On the actual document?
20
MR STECHER:
Yes.
21
MR O’BRYAN:
And you don’t know who the handwriting was?
22
MR STECHER:
No.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
And you were meant to transcribe that handwriting
24
into formally typed documents, were you?
25
MR STECHER:
Correct.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
27
MS HARRIS:
28
29
30
Commissioner, I note the time.
Would it be
convenient?
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, what about, because we started late, if we
just go until a quarter to.
Is that all right or do you
2244
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
want to break now?
2
will – if we could start a fraction earlier, that would
3
be good.
4
MS HARRIS:
5
- - -
6
MR O’BRYAN:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR O’BRYAN:
9
Yes.
I don’t mind.
If we break now, we
Perhaps if we could break, Commissioner
Break now.
- - - if it’s a suitable time.
And let me see.
Would it be satisfactory to come
back at twenty past?
10
MS HARRIS:
11
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, sir.
All right.
Well, we will do that.
12
to catch up a little bit on the time.
13
will adjourn until about 20 past.
14
ADJOURNED
I just want
All right.
We
[12.34 pm]
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
2245
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
RESUMED
2
MR O’BRYAN:
[1.23 pm]
Where has Mr Stecher gone?
There he is.
Thank
3
you, Mr Stecher.
If you could return to the witness box.
4
I will remind you, you’re still under affirmation.
5
will just follow up on the last topic with a few
6
questions that you were addressing which related to the
7
work that you did for – who were you doing it for, was it
8
for Encino late last year in October?
9
that, I think, was outsourced to the Philippines.
And I
This is the work
10
MR STECHER:
Cobra Motors, I believe.
11
MR O’BRYAN:
For Cobra Motors.
12
MR STECHER:
But it included a number of different businesses’
13
14
15
bank accounts, I believe.
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
So what – I think you said there hard copy
documents you were given.
16
MR STECHER:
And electronic copies.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
And - - -
18
MR STECHER:
The hard copies went back quite a long way.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
20
And the hard copy documents had handwritten
notes on them.
21
MR STECHER:
Correct.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
Are you familiar with Carlo’s handwriting?
23
MR STECHER:
Not particularly.
I didn’t actually, again, get
24
involved in that.
25
staff and sent to the Philippines.
26
27
MR O’BRYAN:
Right.
It was just scanned by some of our
And how many documents are we talking
about roughly?
28
MR STECHER:
There was a huge pile.
29
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, how huge is huge to you?
30
MR STECHER:
Probably that big in terms of the printed copy.
2246
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR O’BRYAN:
About that high?
And were you – and what was the
2
character of the documents?
3
they quotes?
Just – no.
Were they invoices, were
4
MR STECHER:
They were just bank statements.
5
- - -
6
MR O’BRYAN:
They were all bank statements?
7
MR STECHER:
I’m pretty sure they were all bank statements.
8
MR O’BRYAN:
Right.
9
MR STECHER:
I think there was – I believe there might have
For Cobra Motors’ bank?
10
been Quill.
11
different companies.
12
in the detail.
13
detail.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
All
There were – I think there were two or three
Again, I didn’t really get involved
I don’t get involved in that sort of
What about some of the other companies that
15
counsel assisting had mentioned;
16
Consulting was one of them.
Customer Training and
17
MR STECHER:
I don’t recollect if that was there.
18
MR O’BRYAN:
What about - - -
19
MR STECHER:
I have all the records of that.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
- - - Encino?
21
MR STECHER:
I think Encino was there.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
And when you say going back quite a while, what –
23
roughly what time period are we talking about?
24
MR STECHER:
I believe it was until the early 1990s.
25
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Now, the hard copy that had handwritten
26
notes on them, was there a handwritten note on every page
27
or just some pages - - -
28
MR STECHER:
No.
Just some pages, I believe,
29
MR O’BRYAN:
- - - in relation to particular transactions?
30
MR STECHER:
Correct.
2247
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR O’BRYAN:
And what was the character of – what generally do
2
you recall the notes saying about the particular
3
transaction?
4
MR STECHER:
Well, sometimes there was a transaction from a
5
business which wasn’t really clear what that was about,
6
so the handwritten note was to say, well, that was for
7
printing, or that was for whatever it happened to be.
8
9
MR O’BRYAN:
So then what was the point – what was the purpose
of the handwritten note?
What were you or your company
10
meant to do in relation to what the handwritten note
11
said?
12
MR STECHER:
Just – basically we just transcribed that into
13
the document so that when there was a transaction there
14
from the bank statement, there was a description beside
15
it as to what that transaction was.
16
17
MR O’BRYAN:
And just to be clear, what was the document you
were meant to produce, or the character of the document?
18
MR STECHER:
Well, basically it was a P and L statement.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
20
Okay.
And did you personally take delivery
of the hard copy documents?
21
MR STECHER:
Yes.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
And where did you take delivery of those?
23
MR STECHER:
That was – I’m not too sure.
24
It was either
Nino’s house – Nino Napoli’s house or Carlo’s place.
25
MR O’BRYAN:
Carlo’s private house?
26
MR STECHER:
Carlo – no, no – Carlo’s work.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
Cobra?
28
MR STECHER:
Cobra Motors, yes.
29
MR O’BRYAN:
All right. Now, this is – we’re only talking,
30
what, September, October last year?
2248
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Correct.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
So you don’t recall where you took delivery of
3
them?
4
MR STECHER:
Well, I visit - - -
5
MR O’BRYAN:
It’s not that long ago.
6
MR STECHER:
No, no.
7
8
9
10
I would have thought you might.
I visited both places quite regularly.
So, no, I don’t.
MR O’BRYAN:
Did you visit both places in relation to this
particular work quite regularly?
MR STECHER:
This particular work, I think I only – I really
11
only discussed it with – I think it was Nino that I
12
discussed the work with.
13
accountant.
Nino was obviously Carlo’s
14
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
15
MR STECHER:
And that’s probably two discussions related to
16
17
18
And - - -
that, from memory.
MR O’BRYAN:
Or did you have any impression as to whether –
are you familiar with Nino’s handwriting?
19
MR STECHER:
Not really, no.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Did Nino take you through some of the handwriting
21
We mostly communicated by email.
to explain that further?
22
MR STECHER:
Yes.
I believe he did.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
And what – just if you could just talk me through
24
that process.
What actually happened in the
25
explanations?
What was he saying to you?
26
MR STECHER:
Well, basically he just said – well, he told me
27
what he wanted.
I asked for a description of what he
28
wanted in – by email, which I got, and it was just more
29
or less a description of basically what he wanted, which
30
was to create the spreadsheets out of those documents.
2249
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR O’BRYAN:
So there’s spreadsheets as distinct – these are
2
spreadsheets to look – in the character of profit and
3
loss statements?
4
MR STECHER:
Correct, yes.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
Right.
6
And was it your understanding that they
were for, what, providing to investigators or not?
7
MR STECHER:
Yes.
8
MR O’BRYAN:
To provide to investigators?
9
MR STECHER:
Yes.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
Were they original creations, or were they
11
recreating something already in existence?
12
words, were they being created to replace something in
13
existence?
14
MR STECHER:
In other
The ones I saw were actual – it looked like they
15
were actual bank statements – photocopies of actual bank
16
statements.
17
18
19
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, but you weren’t recreating bank statements,
were you;
MR STECHER:
that’s right, isn’t it?
Correct.
Well, yes.
We were putting that into
electronic format.
21
MR O’BRYAN:
What, the bank statements?
22
MR STECHER:
Correct.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
But these are statements that came from the bank;
24
you were going to put them into some sort of electronic
25
format - - -
26
MR STECHER:
Yes.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
- - - what, typical of what an accountant might
28
use - - -
29
MR STECHER:
Yes.
30
MR O’BRYAN:
- - - with explanations within.
2250
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Yes.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
And your understanding was these were to give to
3
investigators?
4
MR STECHER:
Yes.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
And were they to – what about in terms of, you
6
know, the dating on them as to when they were created,
7
were you given any instructions as to when they were to
8
look like they were created?
9
10
11
12
MR STECHER:
No.
The dates were on the statements.
used those dates.
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
And what did you do with the hard copy
documents?
13
MR STECHER:
I gave them back.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
To?
15
MR STECHER:
To – I’m almost certain it was Nino.
16
MR O’BRYAN:
After the work was done?
17
MR STECHER:
After the work was done.
18
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
19
20
We just
And did anyone in your organisation in
Melbourne help with this project?
MR STECHER:
Possibly Chris .....
Chris is a local team
21
member who deals with our team in the Philippines, so he
22
may have had some involvement.
23
24
MR O’BRYAN:
I’m just not sure.
Well, did the hard copy documents get sent off to
the Philippines?
25
MR STECHER:
No.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
I see.
27
MR STECHER:
Yes.
28
MR O’BRYAN:
And did you then do the work and deliver some
29
30
We scanned them locally.
Sent them off.
work product to somebody?
MR STECHER:
They – the team in the Philippines did the work.
2251
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
It all came back electronically and I then sent it
2
through.
3
MR O’BRYAN:
To who?
4
MR STECHER:
It would have been Nino, or Carlo or both.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
6
And did you have any follow-up discussions
about the work product?
7
MR STECHER:
Quite possibly, yes.
8
MR O’BRYAN:
And what follow-up discussions did you have?
9
MR STECHER:
It might have been in relation to, I don’t know
10
whether or not the work was – that they – was done, was
11
done properly, that type of thing.
12
recollect any specific discussions.
13
talking about the project or the job.
14
15
16
MR O’BRYAN:
I don’t really
I mean, I was
When was the work product delivered back to
either Carlo or Nino?
MR STECHER:
It was late’ish last year.
I mean, I’ve got –
17
obviously I’ve got exact dates of when that happened.
18
was all in my email.
19
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, then, did you charge for and get paid for
the work?
21
MR STECHER:
Yes.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
What was the basis for charging?
23
It
We charged for it.
Was there an
initial quote or was it a time basis?
24
MR STECHER:
It was a time basis.
25
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
26
MR STECHER:
So all our staff keep records of everything they
27
do and, in essence, I think we billed it out at between
28
10 and $12 an hour and that was charged accordingly.
29
MR O’BRYAN:
So did you send an invoice for that work?
30
MR STECHER:
Yes.
2252
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR O’BRYAN:
What was the descriptor on the invoice?
2
MR STECHER:
It was – well, I’m not sure, because I didn’t
3
send the invoice, but it would have been accounting work
4
for Cobra Motors or something like that.
5
6
MR O’BRYAN:
Were the instructions for the work purely oral or
were there written instructions as well?
7
MR STECHER:
We had some written instructions, yes.
8
MR O’BRYAN:
Written by, what, a formal letter or an email?
9
MR STECHER:
It was a photocopy of a handwritten document.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
So you got a handwritten document that was not an
11
original, it was a photocopy - - -
12
MR STECHER:
Yes.
13
MR O’BRYAN:
- - - written by who?
14
MR STECHER:
I believe that was by Nino.
15
MR O’BRYAN:
And did you get that at the outset?
16
MR STECHER:
Yes.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
And was that hand delivered to you by Nino?
18
MR STECHER:
That was given to me when I picked up the
19
20
21
22
23
documents.
MR O’BRYAN:
The documents.
And what was that, a one-pager or
several pages of instructions?
MR STECHER:
No.
It was pretty simply.
it was two pages, from memory.
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
25
MR STECHER:
It was a fairly simple job.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
27
28
It was just – I think
And - - -
And what, in essence, did the hand – have
you still got the handwritten notes?
MR STECHER:
I think so, but I – we converted that into a
29
typed document to send to our team anyway, so that’s what
30
I would have.
2253
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MR O’BRYAN:
So you literally just had that typed as it was,
the handwriting.
Is that right?
3
MR STECHER:
Yes.
4
MR O’BRYAN:
And, what, scanned it off to the Philippines?
5
MR STECHER:
Yes.
6
MR O’BRYAN:
So that they understood the instructions.
7
MR STECHER:
Correct.
8
MR O’BRYAN:
And you – you;’ve got the – you’ve – I take it
9
you’ve got the typed up version.
10
MR STECHER:
Yes.
11
MR O’BRYAN:
And you could produce that, could you?
12
MR STECHER:
Yes.
13
MR O’BRYAN:
And you believe you might have the handwritten
14
15
version?
MR STECHER:
I’m not sure about that because when I – when we
16
handed the documents back, they – they would have gone
17
back as they came.
18
19
MR O’BRYAN:
So you would have given back the handwritten
notes to Mr Napoli.
20
MR STECHER:
Yes.
21
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
22
23
24
hand back the documents, all the documents?
MR STECHER:
No.
I mean, that’s just the normal course of
action that we would take when we do this type of work.
25
MR O’BRYAN:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
Were you under instructions by Mr Napoli to
Yes.
Yes, Ms Harris.
Were you given all the documents at once, or did
they come in at different times?
28
MR STECHER:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MR STECHER:
No, they came in at different times and - - Over what period of time?
Probably about six to eight weeks, I believe, and
2254
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
the second – the second lots of documents came from
2
Carlo.
3
subsequent documents came from Carlo because he was going
4
back further in time at that point.
5
6
7
MS HARRIS:
So the first lot came from Nino, and the – the
And did he give you isntructions – he, being
Carlo, also provide instructions to you?
MR STECHER:
Yes, but they were exactly the same as what Nino
8
had done.
9
work.
Because by that time we had actually done the
He had seen the result and was very happy with the
10
result and said, “Just go ahead and do the same thing for
11
the following years.”
12
13
MS HARRIS:
Did you also – did the documentation also include
C & L Printing?
14
MR STECHER:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR STECHER:
I’m not sure.
Or Customer Training and Consulting?
Again, I’m not sure.
I suspect there may have
17
been – I didn’t look through all the stuff myself,
18
necessarily, but quite possible – there were a number of
19
– a number of businesses.
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MR STECHER:
22
I think that was there, yes.
Again, we have all
of that on record with – we have everything on record.
23
MS HARRIS:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
27
MS HARRIS:
28
Encino?
Could we please paly call number 1990.
One – what is it?
It’s 1990, dated 26 August 2014.
Yes.
Mr Stecher, you will see a transcript of what
you’re hearing coming up on the screen next to you.
29
AUDIO PLAYED
30
MS HARRIS:
Mr Stecher, before I ask you any further
2255
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
questions, can I just ask you to move away slightly from
2
the microphone.
3
you.
4
MR STECHER:
5
MS HARRIS:
6
MR STECHER:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
9
MS HARRIS:
10
I think it’s causing some issues.
Do you recognise your voice?
Yes, yes.
And the voice of Mr Napoli?
I do.
And initially Ms Josie Napoli?
Yes, I do.
That’s in rleation to organising the spreadsheets
that you’ve been talking about.
11
MR STECHER:
12
MS HARRIS:
Correct, yes.
What were – if we can go back up to the first
13
page, please.
14
struggling a bit.
15
bit with?
16
Thank
MR STECHER:
At line 14 it indicates that Carlo was
Do you know what he was struggling a
Probably just explaining what – what he wanted
17
Nino – Nino is obviously an accountant and he wanted the
18
spreadsheets to be presented in a certain way with the P
19
& L and the comments and categories.
20
imagine it was that.
21
that stage.
22
MS HARRIS:
And so I would
We had already sorted that out by
We knew exactly what he wanted so - - -
But as I understand your evidence, that wasn’t
23
Carlo’s job to put it into those categories.
24
providing your company with the documents.
25
right?
26
MR STECHER:
27
all.
28
MS HARRIS:
Correct.
He was just
Isn’t that
So he didn’t need to be struggling at
On to the next page, please.
Just stop there.
If you could scroll
29
down.
You indicate at line 29 you’ve
30
got all the Encino statements in PDF format.
2256
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
2
MS HARRIS:
3
4
Yes.
Does that mean that they were transferred to you
electronically?
MR STECHER:
Either electronically or – what I did at that
5
point, I had a meeting with Carlo to show him how to
6
download what he could from the bank and put it into PDF.
7
So some of it was – he had some that was – he was able to
8
download electronically, but that only went back so many
9
years.
10
11
After seven years I think we had – we only had
hard copies.
MS HARRIS:
As I understood your evidence to the Commissioner,
12
the documents provided to you were provided in hard copy.
13
Is it the case then - - -
14
MR STECHER:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
17
No.
- - - that some of the documents were provided to
you electronically?
MR STECHER:
Yes, and I believe that’s what I – I did indicate
18
earlier that – that more recent documents were
19
electronic.
20
hard copy. That’s – if I didn’t indicate, that’s what I
21
certainly should have because that’s – that’s how it
22
happened.
23
MS HARRIS:
24
MR STECHER:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
30
See - - -
So when you indicated a pile of documents - - Yes.
- - - to the Commissioner, was that the pile of
documents provided to you in hard copy?
27
29
It was only the older documents that were
Correct.
And then there are additional documents on top of
that provided to you in electronic copy?
MR STECHER:
Yes.
So there were some – some that he was able
2257
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
to download electronically himself.
2
ones that he needed a bit of assistance to download
3
electronically, and they were the PDF documents.
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MR STECHER:
How many were provided to you electronically?
I believe there were probably up to six years
6
worth, or something like that.
7
that - - -
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MR STECHER:
10
11
MS HARRIS:
There were other
And, again, I have all
And only bank statements?
I – well, there’s only bank statements, yes.
So you were never provided with invoices or
anything along those lines?
12
MR STECHER:
I don’t believe so, no.
13
MR O’BRYAN:
Was this a bit of a one-off?
Have you ever had
14
this sort of thing that you’ve had to do before for a
15
client?
16
MR STECHER:
Well, it’s – we launched this business in – this
17
outsourcing business last year and – so that’s the work
18
we’re looking for.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
Did you launch it on the back of this work?
20
MR STECHER:
No, no.
We’ve been outsourcing since 2010
21
ourselves, so the business has been 18 months in the
22
making.
23
this type of work.
24
transcription work.
25
this is exactly what we’re looking for.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
And so we are actively getting – looking for
So we’re doing quite a lot of
We have a finance team over there so
Did either Mr Napoli or Carlo say anything to
27
indicate that they were concerned about the material that
28
you were being asked to do work in relationm to?
29
MR STECHER:
Yes, they were concerned.
30
MR O’BRYAN:
What was their concern, as you understood it?
2258
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
They seemed to be concerned and – mainly about
2
anything in relation to printing but they didn’t tell me
3
what the concern was.
4
in documents that they – so they could explain it to
5
their – I believe to their counsel.
6
MR O’BRYAN:
That’s relevant to everything in –
So you had no – no understanding, are you saying,
7
of why they were concerned?
8
why?
9
MR STECHER:
They never explained to you
Well, I had – had an understanding that something
10
was going on, but I really didn’t understand.
There was
11
– there was no – there was no – no talk of exactly what
12
that was.
13
MR O’BRYAN:
So you had no idea what it might be.
14
MR STECHER:
Well, I was – I was aware that, yes, there were –
15
I was aware that there was money – money moving around
16
somehow.
17
18
19
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
And what – what further understanding did
you have about the basis for their concerns?
MR STECHER:
I’m just trying to think that far back in terms
20
of when I started understanding more about this case.
21
that time I thought it was all – I was probably aware
22
there may have been something going on, but it was –
23
seemed to be me all pretty minor.
24
MR O’BRYAN:
What sort of something?
25
MR STECHER:
Obviously using businesses to create – I’m
26
guessing with the printing business it would have been
27
something to do with the department.
At
28
MR O’BRYAN:
And?
29
MR STECHER:
That really wasn’t discussed.
30
MR O’BRYAN:
Why would you be concerned about something to do
2259
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
with the department?
2
was of concern.
3
MR STECHER:
There’s obviously something that
What was your understanding about that?
I didn’t really ask many questions about that
4
that I can recollect.
5
a case going on that – which started earlier last year,
6
and my understanding of all of this, it was just them
7
getting their – all of their statements in a manner that
8
they could explain what had happened.
9
10
MR O’BRYAN:
MS HARRIS:
So obviously I was aware there was
Yes.
Can we just scroll down further, please?
Just
11
following on from the Commissioner’s question, you said
12
you were aware that money was being transferred.
13
which entities?
14
slightly from the microphone?
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
18
19
Yes.
Yes.
Could I just ask you to move back
I’m sorry.
Yes.
Between which entities?
I didn’t really look in great detail at the stuff
that was there.
MS HARRIS:
Between
I saw some of the statements...
I will just stop you there.
Not in relation to
20
what you were looking, what was your understanding of how
21
this money was being transferred?
22
Between who?
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MR STECHER:
28
29
30
Between where?
I didn’t really have an understanding of that.
What was said to you about it?
I don’t really recollect.
But something was said to you about it?
We talked about a lot of stuff.
I don’t
recollect anything specific about that.
MS HARRIS:
Did Mr Napoli express concerns to you about money
moving around?
2260
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
2
- - -
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
5
MS HARRIS:
6
MR STECHER:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
9
MS HARRIS:
10
MR STECHER:
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MR STECHER:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
18
MS HARRIS:
20
21
22
23
I mean, we have had a number of
Well, he probably did or he did?
He did.
When?
I don’t know.
Prior to you engaging in this exercise?
Yes.
Yes.
And what did he say to you?
Prior to this exercise you mean?
Yes.
I don’t recollect specifically what he said.
I’m not asking word for word.
Just give us the
general gist of what he said to you.
15
19
He probably did.
to you.
MR O’BRYAN:
No, I don’t really recall.
Again, I’m not asking for specifics.
Yes.
But you have indicated that he expressed concerns
What did he say he was concerned about?
Is there a reason why you’re taking so long to
answer?
MR STECHER:
things.
24
MR O’BRYAN:
25
said?
26
MR STECHER:
I’m just – I remember, or recollect contexts of
I’m just really trying to associate - - Well, what’s your best recollection as to what he
He said – he just said he was concerned about –
27
he was concerned about printing on the statements, and
28
just to make sure that we have that – his comments
29
transcribed.
30
or anything like that.
I don’t recollect asking him why that was
All I understood was that I had
2261
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
to make sure those comments were clear and on the
2
statements.
3
4
MS HARRIS:
What were his concerns about money being
transferred between companies?
5
MR STECHER:
6
MS HARRIS:
7
MR STECHER:
I don’t recollect asking that.
Do you recollect him telling you about it?
Well, he said he was concerned.
8
to make sure it was correct.
9
saying specifically anything about that.
10
11
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MR STECHER:
15
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MR STECHER:
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MR STECHER:
That’s
Quite possibly, yes.
That’s what he said to you, wasn’t it?
I don’t recall that.
Did he express concerns to you about funds from
Yes, he would have said that, yes.
Would have, or did?
He did.
What did he say?
Something like that;
“I’m concerned about moneys
that” – yes.
23
MS HARRIS:
24
MR STECHER:
25
It related to moneys from the department?
the department being used to pay certain companies?
17
22
I don’t recollect him
correct, isn’t it?
12
16
He just wanted
You’re not finished the sentence.
“From the department” that had been used to pay
things.
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
MR STECHER:
30
MS HARRIS:
What sorts of things?
I don’t know.
Printing?
Printing was a concern of his, yes.
Scanning?
2262
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Printing, scanning, I recollect that.
I
2
recollect having conversations with Carlo about that as
3
well.
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MR STECHER:
6
MS HARRIS:
7
MR STECHER:
Did Carlo express concerns to you?
Yes, he did express concerns.
What did he say?
Well, he – I know that he did a lot of work.
I
8
think his concern was more about the fact that Nino was
9
his cousin and he was doing printing work – printing and
10
scanning.
I know the work was done – or believe the work
11
was done and charged for.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
You know the work was done?
13
MR STECHER:
Sorry?
14
MR O’BRYAN:
Are you saying you knew – you know the work was
15
done?
16
MR STECHER:
Well, my - - -
17
MR O’BRYAN:
How do you know that?
18
MR STECHER:
OK, I don’t know – Carlo told me and I had no
19
reason to disbelieve him.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Where was the work done?
21
MR STECHER:
That I’m not sure.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
What, at Cobra Motors in the workshop?
23
MR STECHER:
No.
24
MR O’BRYAN:
No.
25
MR STECHER:
Carlo would have contracted people to do that.
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Would he?
27
MR STECHER:
That’s what he does.
How do you know that?
that’s what he told me.
29
that at that time.
MR O’BRYAN:
Or - - -
He doesn’t – wouldn’t have that facility.
28
30
..... we didn’t - - -
That’s – yes.
And again,
I had no reason to disbelieve
So Carlo told you in relation to the printing
2263
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
work.
2
MR STECHER:
Yes.
3
MR O’BRYAN:
Is that what he told you?
4
MR STECHER:
I believe so, yes.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
When you say you believe so, did he tell you or
6
He had contracted people to do it?
not?
7
MR STECHER:
Yes.
8
MR O’BRYAN:
He did tell you?
9
MR STECHER:
Yes.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
So you remember that?
11
MR STECHER:
Yes.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
13
MS HARRIS:
14
payments made for work that wasn’t done?
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
18
19
Did either of them express concerns to you about
Not that I can remember.
So that – they never expressed that to you?
We’re
only talking last year, Mr Stecher.
MR STECHER:
Yes.
We have lots of conversations.
There were
lots – there were concerns.
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MR STECHER:
22
that.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
I’m just asking about that particular issue.
Yes.
Yes, they would have said something like
So did they indicate to you they were concerned
24
about the legitimacy of invoices?
25
lines?
Was it along those
26
MR STECHER:
Yes.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
And that this work was connected with trying to
28
legitimise something they were concerned might not be
29
legitimate.
30
what you’ve said earlier.
Is that a fair summary?
2264
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I’m taking it from
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Yes.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
3
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
And the spreadsheets that you were instructed to
4
create were to justify those transactions.
5
understanding?
6
7
8
9
10
MR STECHER:
Is that your
The spreadsheets that we created came from bank
statements.
MS HARRIS:
So every transaction in your spreadsheet came from
a bank statement?
MR STECHER:
I – I believe so.
I – I didn’t look through
11
every page of what was sent or scanned myself but that’s
12
certainly my understanding.
13
14
MS HARRIS:
And at the time that – so this is all just 2014.
You were certainly aware then of an investigation.
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
I – I believe so, yes.
Were you aware that it was IBAC investigating?
I don’t believe so.
I’m not too sure when I
18
first understood IBAC – I don’t – didn’t even know what
19
it was all about.
20
21
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
23
MS HARRIS:
24
MR STECHER:
26
27
But certainly that there was an investigation
relating to Mr Napoli?
22
25
It’s all relatively recently.
Yes.
When did you first find that out?
It would have been, I’m guessing, mid – mid last
year or something like that.
MS HARRIS:
I think initially you indicated to us it was late
last year.
28
MR STECHER:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MR STECHER:
Yes.
And then it was September/October.
Mmm.
2265
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MS HARRIS:
2
MR STECHER:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
This conversation was in August.
MMmm.
Can you pinpoint it a little bit more accurately?
I can.
Not – not necessarily here but I have a –
5
I had a lunch with Nino and Jeff Rosewarne and I have a
6
record of when that was and that was probably about the
7
time.
8
mid last year, I believe.
9
10
11
12
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
14
MR STECHER:
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR STECHER:
17
MS HARRIS:
20
MR STECHER:
22
MR STECHER:
Both of them?
Yes.
And how – what did they say?
Was it a
Was it a meeting?
We had – there probably would have been a phone
What did they say?
They just mentioned that there was – there was an
investigation going on and, yes - - -
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR STECHER:
Did they say what it was about?
They were concerned about information they had on
their – on their computers.
27
MS HARRIS:
28
MR STECHER:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
Through Nino and Jeff.
conversation and also a meeting – in a meeting.
MS HARRIS:
26
How did you find out about it?
conversation?
21
23
It was possibly four weeks or so before that,
that particular lunch that I had.
MS HARRIS:
19
So was that the first time you found out about the
investigation?
13
18
So it – it would have been mid – or a bit after
What were they concerned about?
What information?
Well, they didn’t tell me specifically.
So all they said was, “We’re concerned about
information we’ve got on our computer.”
2266
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MR STECHER:
4
Yes.
And that was the end of conversation, was it?
Well, the conversation probably went on but that
was the gist of the conversation.
5
MS HARRIS:
6
MR STECHER:
Did you ask them what they were concerned about?
Most – most likely.
I don’t think I got in – I
7
don’t recollect getting any specific details.
8
certainly – the first – first I was aware of what was
9
going on was after about 27 or 24 April this year.
10
MS HARRIS:
11
MR STECHER:
I mean, I
This year or last year?
This year.
I was aware of the investigation but
12
I wasn’t – I was more aware of the specifics after 24
13
April this year.
14
15
16
17
MR O’BRYAN:
So what – why were they raising with you the fact
that they had concerns about stuff on their computers?
MR STECHER:
Well, I guess because I – I was the one that
dealt with their computer systems.
18
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
19
MR STECHER:
I know that Jeff - - -
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, why were they raising it with you?
21
MR STECHER:
Well, Jeff – Jeff Rosewarne, for example, had his
22
computer with his ex-wife and he was concerned about the
23
information on that, so - - -
24
25
MR O’BRYAN:
So just stopping there, you were looking after
his computers?
26
MR STECHER:
Yes.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, okay.
28
MR STECHER:
And so we were asked to clean – clean his
29
30
So, yes, go on.
computers up.
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
And what material were you asked to delete?
2267
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Well, we – we weren’t because it never happened.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
All right.
So did he – was he specific, though,
3
at the meeting about the type of information he was
4
concerned about?
5
MR STECHER:
I don’t believe so, no.
6
MR O’BRYAN:
No.
7
MR STECHER:
Mister – Nino was concerned about a few emails.
What about Mr Napoli?
8
There was only a – only a bunch of emails that he had a
9
concern about.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
And did he bring his laptop with him?
11
MR STECHER:
No, no.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
So you helped him subsequently, did you, to
13
I was – anything I did was at his house.
delete things?
14
MR STECHER:
We cleaned up one of his discs, yes.
15
MR O’BRYAN:
All right.
Just stepping back, who arranged the
16
lunch you were talking about with Mr Napoli and Mr
17
Rosewarne?
18
MR STECHER:
Probably Nino.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
And where did you have lunch?
20
MR STECHER:
In – in the city, not very far from – just – it
21
was in Collins Street.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
23
MR STECHER:
I can’t remember – can’t remember the name of the
24
25
26
place.
MR O’BRYAN:
concerns they had about what was on their computers?
27
MR STECHER:
28
wife.
29
MR O’BRYAN:
30
And is that where you had the discussion about
The discussion was more concerns around his ex-
No, no, I’m not asking you what other discussions
you had.
2268
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Mmm.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
Was the discussion that included their concerns
3
about what was on the computers had at this lunch?
4
MR STECHER:
I believe it – yes, it was, sir.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
And then you’re saying subsequently, you
6
didn’t help Mr Rosewarne in that regard but you did help
7
Mr Napoli.
8
MR STECHER:
Yes.
9
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
10
And you went to Mr Napoli’s house and
helped him delete some material.
11
MR STECHER:
Yes.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
And I – is this in terms of not just putting in
13
the trash bin and then deleting what’s in the trash bin,
14
but also trying to delete the whole electronic record of
15
something?
16
asked to do?
17
18
19
MR STECHER:
Is that what we’re talking about you’re being
Yes.
Which – which was basically common practice
when he was cleaning up stuff so - - MR O’BRYAN:
Well, just putting aside whether it’s common
20
practice, my understanding is if you delete what’s in
21
your trash bin, the computer still has a record of what’s
22
there.
23
MR STECHER:
Yes.
24
MR O’BRYAN:
And you were being asked to go into those records
25
and try and wipe it off as though it had never existed.
26
Is that what I’m - - -
27
MR STECHER:
Yes.
28
MR O’BRYAN:
Okay.
29
30
delete?
MR STECHER:
And what sort of material, then, did you
Emails about what?
Well, I think it was the whole – the whole drive,
2269
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
so - - MR O’BRYAN:
So he asked you to basically clean out the whole
hard drive, did he?
4
MR STECHER:
Yes.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
What, everything that was on it, get rid of it?
6
MR STECHER:
I – I believe so, yes.
7
MR O’BRYAN:
And this is - - -
8
MR STECHER:
That was handed over to my staff at that time
9
10
11
anyway.
MR O’BRYAN:
All right.
So are we talking about a PC or a
laptop or both?
12
MR STECHER:
That was a PC and an external hard drive.
13
MR O’BRYAN:
And you then handed those over to your staff to
14
do that, did you?
15
MR STECHER:
Yes.
16
MR O’BRYAN:
And then what did you do with the equipment?
17
MR STECHER:
He – he still has the equipment, I believe.
18
MR O’BRYAN:
I’m sorry, he still has the equipment?
19
MR STECHER:
He still has – he still has – yes.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
21
MS HARRIS:
Yes, Ms Harris.
So when you say that you were asked to clean up
22
Nino Napoli’s computer, that’s what you mean by deleting
23
things off?
24
MR STECHER:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
Yes.
When was that?
That would have been about August – July, August,
27
September last year.
28
I have – we have records of all of that.
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MR STECHER:
Sometime in that timeframe and then
Was it just the one computer and hard drive?
I – I believe so.
Again, I did some.
2270
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
My staff
M.G. STECHER
1
did – did the rest.
2
I’m not – not sure.
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
Did he say why he wanted you to do it?
5
up.
6
there.
7
8
9
10
11
So whether or not there were more,
No, he just wanted to – just wanted to clean it
He was concerned about information that was on
MS HARRIS:
And it related to the investigation.
That’s what
he said to you?
MR STECHER:
MS HARRIS:
Yes, he would have said that.
So he wanted it taken off there so no one could
find it.
12
MR STECHER:
Yes.
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MR STECHER:
Yes.
15
MR O’BRYAN:
Were they similar concerns to the type you’ve
Yes?
16
already given evidence about that related to the work you
17
were doing with the hard copy documents with handwriting
18
that there were questionable transactions that were
19
recorded that he wanted to get rid of the evidence of?
20
MR STECHER:
Yes.
21
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
22
MS HARRIS:
23
You said that Mr Rosewarne made a similar request
of you.
24
MR STECHER:
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
27
MS HARRIS:
28
MR STECHER:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MR STECHER:
Yes.
Did he also want you to clean up his computer?
Yes.
Was that done?
No.
Why not?
We didn’t have access to his computer.
2271
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MS HARRIS:
there?
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
Did he express concerns to you about what was on
Yes.
And that he was concerned about an investigation
looking into that?
6
MR STECHER:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
No.
9
MR O’BRYAN:
So at the time you met, did he indicate to you he
10
Yes.
Did he say what those documents related to?
didn’t have access to computers he was concerned about?
11
MR STECHER:
Yes.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
Did he inform you of any plan he had to get
13
access?
14
MR STECHER:
Yes.
15
MR O’BRYAN:
And what was his plan?
16
MR STECHER:
We were – we were looking at getting remote
17
access to the computer.
18
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
19
MR STECHER:
Which we’re not able to do.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
21
So we’re talking about computers at work
and home, or just one of those places?
22
MR STECHER:
No, just – just at home.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
At home.
24
MR STECHER:
Mmm.
25
MR O’BRYAN:
So he had moved out of home, had he?
26
MR STECHER:
Yes.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
And to remotely log in and wipe what’s on the
28
computer.
29
MR STECHER:
Yes.
30
MR O’BRYAN:
That was the plan.
2272
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Yes.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
But you weren’t able to do that.
3
MR STECHER:
No.
4
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
5
MS HARRIS:
6
MR STECHER:
So, essentially, trying to hack into it?
Yes. Well, actually, no, we – what we normally do
7
is we have remote access to most of the – most of the
8
people we work with.
9
didn’t have that for Jeff Rosewarne’s.
10
11
We did for Nino’s computers but we
We did some work
for Jeff, not a lot, over the years.
MS HARRIS:
Could we – returning to the transcript for a
12
moment, could we scroll down a bit further, please, just
13
– thank you.
You indicate at line 50 that:
14
We will put in all the comments, so we’re going to
15
have two – two extra columns in those.
16
Mr Napoli says, “Okay.”
And you say, “One – one column
17
will be for the category.”
18
say:
And he says, “Yep.”
And you
19
And the other – the other comment will be your – the
20
other column will be your comment.
21
So obviously at that point in time you knew that it was
22
Mr Napoli putting comments on documents.
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
28
MR STECHER:
30
And what do you mean by “category”?
Printing – it’s like a normal P and L site
category, so expenses - - -
27
29
Yes, yes.
Is that what - - - - - electricity, utilities, whatever that might
be.
MS HARRIS:
So that was a description of what the transaction
2273
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
related to.
2
MR STECHER:
Correct.
3
MR O’BRYAN:
So putting aside whether or not you recognised
4
handwriting, was it your belief at the time that it was
5
Mr Napoli’s – over Mr Napoli’s handwritten note?
6
MS HARRIS:
7
MR O’BRYAN:
8
MS HARRIS:
9
Yes.
Seeing this now, that’s correct.
Yes.
I tender that recording.
It’s session number
1990, dated 26 August 2014.
10
MR O’BRYAN:
11
EXHIBIT #181 AUDIO RECORDING, SESSION NUMBER 1990, DATED
12
13
14
That will be exhibit 181.
26/08/2014
MS HARRIS:
You were aksed before the break about Ms
Vandermeer.
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
And you indicated that you assisted her with some
17
computer issues in I think it was September, October last
18
year.
19
MR STECHER:
20
MS HARRIS:
21
MR STECHER:
Is that what you indicated?
Yes.
How did – did she make contact with you?
Yes.
Yes.
I hesitate because her – her ex-
22
husband, Dominic, is also a friend of mine and he
23
suggested that I make contact.
24
called me first.
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
But I believe that she
And what did she ask you to do?
At that stage she just wanted a back-up of her –
27
of all her systems so that if she didn’t have access to
28
her computers she could continue to run her business.
29
30
MS HARRIS:
And when you say “at that stage” did she
subsequently make a different request of you?
2274
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
The only request that I recollect she made was,
2
there was one email she was concerned about and asked me
3
if it had been deleted.
4
could tell, I couldn’t find it so I said, “Yes, it has
5
been deleted.”
6
MS HARRIS:
7
MR STECHER:
And I checked and, as far as I
And did she say what her concerns were?
No.
Well, she – she seemed to think – or she
8
told me that, “There’s really nothing – nothing to be
9
concerned about, I’m not worried.
10
11
12
13
The only concer I have
is being able to continue to run my business.”
MS HARRIS:
And what was it she thought she might not be able
to do that?
MR STECHER:
Because she had seen what happened to Carlo and
14
Nino with their computers being confiscated, that she was
15
worried about her server getting taken which means she
16
couldn’t continue to operate.
17
MS HARRIS:
18
say?
19
MR STECHER:
20
MS HARRIS:
21
22
23
So this is in approximately September, October you
I believe so, yes.
Was that the first you had known that Nino or
Carlo’s computer had been taken?
MR STECHER:
I don’t recollect the dates that they were taken
but I knew when it happened so - - -
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR STECHER:
How did you know?
Well, Nino told me.
Well, I got a call the
26
morning that they came in.
They had 12 police officers
27
come in and – Josie rang me in a bit of a panic to make
28
sure that back-ups were – were okay so that they could,
29
again, restore from back-ups so they could continue to
30
run their business.
2275
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MS HARRIS:
Napoli asked you to clean up his computer?
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
MR STECHER:
6
And was that conversation before or after Nino
That was after.
Which one was after?
The – the seizing of the computers was after the
– after the request to clean them.
7
MR O’BRYAN:
So you didn’t clean up any laptops?
8
MR STECHER:
There – there most likely would have been a
9
laptop involved, yes.
10
that.
11
staff.
12
13
I – I don’t personally recollect
Again, I – I handed a lot of that stuff over to my
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, we’re talking about computers that were at
Mr Napoli’s house.
14
MR STECHER:
Yes.
15
MR O’BRYAN:
So did you physically take delivery of those and
16
17
18
So he had a laptop.
He had a PC.
drive away with them?
MR STECHER:
on site.
No.
No, everthing I believe was done on – done
He had one old computer which we took away.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
Who actually did the work on site?
20
MR STECHER:
I started the work happening and then I handed it
21
over to staff to finish remotely.
22
MR O’BRYAN:
And which member of staff?
23
MR STECHER:
There would have been one of my local staff,
24
Bruce Muir, and also the team from the Philippines.
25
of that sort of stuff is relatively low in work so we
26
hand it off to the Philippines to do.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
This is the wiping of computers?
28
MR STECHER:
Yes.
29
MR O’BRYAN:
Why – what can they do remotely in the
30
Most
Philippines?
2276
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Pretty – pretty much anything.
2
MR O’BRYAN:
So what do you do?
3
4
5
Do you electronically send
informatioin to them?
MR STECHER:
They – they install – they would install software
on to the – on to the computer.
6
MR O’BRYAN:
To sort of wipe the record.
7
MR STECHER:
Yes.
8
MR O’BRYAN:
And your belief is there was also at least a
9
10
11
laptop that was wiped.
MR STECHER:
PC, and an external hard drive.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
The – there would have been a laptop, possibly a
Yes.
Was there – yes, yes.
And your belief is that they were wiped prior to
IBAC executing a search warrant.
15
MR STECHER:
Yes.
16
MR O’BRYAN:
Was there ever any discussion about whether you
17
could remotely access departmental computers?
18
MR STECHER:
No.
19
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
20
MS HARRIS:
21
22
23
24
25
26
Returning to Ms Vandermeer, what email was it she
was acting you to look for?
MR STECHER:
She didn’t tell me.
find it.
MS HARRIS:
She just asked me if I could
I can’t remember what it was called.
But she must have given you some instruction as to
a date or who it was from or to, what the topic was?
MR STECHER:
She – I asked her if she could give me some –
27
something in the subject line so I could search for it.
28
I can’t remember what she said.
29
but – yes.
30
thing that she was concerned about, and I couldn’t find
It was – particularly
What ever it was, she said that was the only
2277
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
that email so - - -
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MR O’BRYAN:
Where did this occur?
4
MR STECHER:
This was in her office.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
So she asked you – or Mr Napoli asked you to go
6
7
8
Did you - - -
to her office.
MR STECHER:
No.
Is that what happened?
Nino didn’t – I don’t believe Nino had
anything to do with that.
9
MR O’BRYAN:
She asked you to go to her office?
10
MR STECHER:
Yes.
Her – her ex-husband, Ralph – Dominic Barba
11
called me to suggest that this was going to happen, and I
12
believe that she asked me.
13
14
MR O’BRYAN:
She called me then.
So you – you attended her office just for that
purpose.
15
MR STECHER:
Yes.
16
MR O’BRYAN:
Just - - -
17
MR STECHER:
For – no, or the main – the main concern was to
18
set up a back-up system - - -
19
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
20
MR STECHER:
- - - so that she could continue to operate.
21
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR STECHER:
26
Did you do that?
Yes.
And where is that back-up system?
That was always located at her office.
She – we
suggsted an off-site back-up but that never progressed.
27
MS HARRIS:
28
MR O’BRYAN:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
MR O’BRYAN:
So is - - Are you – I’m sorry.
Sorry, Commissioner.
And are you saying nothing was wiped off her
2278
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
4
computer by you or any of your staff?
MR STECHER:
I don’t believe we received that instruction.
don’t believe my staff received that but - - MR O’BRYAN:
Well, I’m not asking about the instruction.
5
asking about the fact.
6
computers, to your knowledge?
MR STECHER:
Not to my knowledge, no.
8
MR O’BRYAN:
Thank you.
9
MS HARRIS:
10
MR STECHER:
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MR STECHER:
13
MS HARRIS:
I’m
Was anything wiped off any of her
7
14
I
Did she pay you for backing up her system?
No.
Did you send her an invoice?
No.
What about wiping Mr Napoli’s computer, or
cleaning up his computer, did you charge for that?
15
MR STECHER:
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
We would have, yes.
Did he pay you?
The way – I’m not sure whether did or not.
I
18
assume he did.
19
went round to visit him, like I do with other friends, I
20
tend to not necessarily charge for my time but as soon as
21
my staff get involved, they keep records, they – and they
22
would charge them based on the time that they spent.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
The way that we operate is that – when I
So what – if I asked you to do that for one of my
24
computers that I was going to sell to someone, or
25
something, what would be the descriptor in the invoice
26
for that work?
27
MR STECHER:
That would be “wiping a hard drive”.
28
MR O’BRYAN:
And is that what would have been the descriptor
29
30
in your invoice to Mr Napoli?
MR STECHER:
Quite probably.
2279
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR O’BRYAN:
Probably?
2
MR STECHER:
Again, I’m not – no, I don’t believe that – that
3
I was involved in that transaction at that point – after
4
after that point.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
6
MS HARRIS:
7
8
9
Yes.
Were you aksed to clean up a computer for Carlo
Squillacioti?
MR STECHER:
I don’t – don’t recollect that.
I don’t believe
so.
10
MS HARRIS:
11
MR STECHER:
No, I don’t believe so.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, you would remember if you were, weren’t
13
Or for Cobra Motors?
you?
14
MR STECHER:
Yes.
15
MR O’BRYAN:
I mean, you can tell us definitely, can’t you,
16
Well, we did – the only - - -
whether you did or you didn’t?
17
MR STECHER:
No.
18
MR O’BRYAN:
You can’t tell us definitely?
19
MR STECHER:
Sorry, no, I – I – I don’t.
20
MR O’BRYAN:
You didn’t do that.
21
MS HARRIS:
22
MR STECHER:
23
MS HARRIS:
24
We didn’t do that.
So it was just for Nino Napoli?
Yes, yes.
You mentioned Jeffrey Rosewarne earlier.
How do
you know him?
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
MR STECHER:
30
MS HARRIS:
Through Nino.
When did you meet him?
Probably in about 1994, or thereabouts.
Were you friends with him?
Not particularly.
Did you do any – or did DyCom do any work for him?
2280
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
Yes.
2
MS HARRIS:
When?
3
MR STECHER:
We probably visited his house on average twice a
4
year, or thereabouts, mostly to do with setting up the
5
communication systems from his home to – to the office,
6
internet issues that he might have had.
7
provided – at some point we provided some notebook
8
computers – or a notebook computer, a PC, stuff like
9
that.
10
MS HARRIS:
11
MR STECHER:
12
expect.
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MR STECHER:
I believe we
Was that invoiced to him?
Probably invoiced to the department I would
They were for his work at home.
Is that what he told you?
Well, that’s what I was setting up for him.
So
15
we actually set up those communications so he could work
16
from home.
17
MS HARRIS:
18
MR STECHER:
19
MS HARRIS:
20
Yes, yes, yes.
Did you engage with him in his work at the
department?
21
MR STECHER:
22
MS HARRIS:
23
Is that what he told you?
No, I don’t believe so.
No.
So he didn’t hire you or DyCom in his capacity
within the department for anything?
24
MR STECHER:
Not that I was involved in.
25
MR O’BRYAN:
What computers did he have at home?
26
MR STECHER:
He had a PC and a notebook.
27
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
28
29
30
And did you work on any other computers at
his house apart from those?
MR STECHER:
Yes.
He had one for his kids that we did some
work on at one stage.
2281
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
2
MR STECHER:
It was to clean up a virus or something like
3
that.
4
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
5
MR STECHER:
I think they just had the one computer from
6
And what about his wife?
memory.
7
MR O’BRYAN:
One family computer?
8
MR STECHER:
Yes.
9
MR O’BRYAN:
And so was the billing through to the department?
10
11
Did it cover that as well?
MR STECHER:
Well, basically, I think those sort of things I
12
didn’t even bother with.
13
really enter my time necessarily for that.
14
MR O’BRYAN:
15
MS HARRIS:
If I was on site I didn’t
Yes.
So the items that were invoiced back to the
16
department was simply the actual computers or laptops, is
17
that right?
18
MR O’BRYAN:
And services there would have been as well.
So
19
we were – you know, they had issues with connecting to
20
the department at times.
21
We had problems with modems, so there were services that
22
were provided, so - - -
23
MS HARRIS:
They had issues with internet.
And as I understand the evidence, you only charge
24
for your services relating to his computers that were
25
being used to communicate back to the department, is that
26
right?
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
You indicated in an answer that you personally
29
didn’t do any work with him at the department.
30
mean DyCom did?
2282
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Does that
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
MR STECHER:
DyCom may well have, yes.
And again, we would
have that all on our records.
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Could we have page 71 of the main court
4
book, please?
5
dated 19 December 2007 inviting both him and Jeff
6
Rosewarne to the Kooyong tennis classic tournament.
7
MR STECHER:
8
MS HARRIS:
9
MR STECHER:
This is an email from you to Nino Napoli
Yes.
Why is it that you’re inviting Mr Rosewarne also?
That was just ..... – I think that was just a
10
standard that we did that.
11
but we were just inviting all of our clients.
12
13
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
15
MS HARRIS:
17
And that was something that was paid for by DyCom,
was it?
14
16
Neither of them turned up,
Correct.
Yes.
How often did you invite Mr Napoli and Mr
Rosewarne to events such as the tennis?
MR STECHER:
I think that was – that was only time.
We only
18
did that three years running.
19
used to have a client barbecue, or Christmas party at the
20
end of the year, so we would invite them quite regularly
21
to that.
22
MS HARRIS:
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
28
29
30
We invited them to – we
Yes.
Not so much Jeff;
more Nino.
And do you recall - - Neither of them ever turned up, for the record.
You say usually Nino.
Why was it on this occasion
that Mr Rosewarne was included?
MR STECHER:
Because that was part of our campaign.
We were
inviting as many people as we could.
MS HARRIS:
PR exercise, was it?
2283
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR STECHER:
2
MS HARRIS:
3
MR O’BRYAN:
4
EXHIBIT #182 EMAIL FROM MARK STECHER TO NINO NAPOLI AND JEFF
5
6
7
Yes, I tender that document, Commissioner.
That will marked exhibit 182.
ROSEWARNE DATED 19/12/2007
MS HARRIS:
Mr Stecher, do you know a company called
Innovating Visuals?
8
MR STECHER:
9
MS HARRIS:
10
Yes.
Yes.
How do you know that company?
MR STECHER:
Mainly through reading of the transcripts.
And
11
also last night I did a bit of looking through our
12
records and found that we had invoiced them for a
13
computer which is the first time I had realised they were
14
in our system .....
15
16
MS HARRIS:
not the company you recall dealing with?
17
MR STECHER:
18
MS HARRIS:
19
No.
In relation to the computer that was invoiced to
them, was that provided?
20
MR STECHER:
21
MS HARRIS:
22
So prior to looking through your records that’s
Yes, I believe so.
Yes.
Excuse me for a moment.
Could we have a look at
page 773 of the main court book, please?
23
MR O’BRYAN:
24
MS HARRIS:
773?
Yes.
It’s an invoice dated 10 April 2013, invoice
25
number CW7257 to Innovating Visuals.
26
you found in your documentation when you were looking
27
through?
28
MR STECHER:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
Is that the invoice
Yes.
And if we just scroll down, please.
of letters and numbers.
Again, lots
Can you decipher for us what was
2284
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
provided, please?
MR STECHER:
MS HARRIS:
5
MR STECHER:
7
8
9
10
11
MS HARRIS:
The second line – well, down there is the screen.
And then if we scroll down further we can see the
amount $2284.70.
MR STECHER:
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
So where were those goods provided to?
that address there?
MR STECHER:
13
MS HARRIS:
14
MR STECHER:
Was it
Level 1, suite A, Keilor Road?
No, I don’t think so.
So where did that item go?
That looks like – looks like a computer that went
to Nino’s place.
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
18
MS HARRIS:
19
MR STECHER:
20
MS HARRIS:
21
Yes.
And then there’s the set up and configuration.
12
15
There was the PC itself which is the first
line item.
4
6
Yes.
And what makes you say that?
Because it had MYOB on it.
I’m sorry, I missed that.
I had MYOB on it.
Yes.
So you believe that was a computer supplied
to Mr Napoli?
22
MR STECHER:
I believe so, yes.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
Why would that indicate that to you?
24
MR STECHER:
Because I know that he uses MYOB.
25
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MR STECHER:
Correct.
28
MR O’BRYAN:
Who do you believe ordered that computer?
29
30
That’s an accounting package?
Yes.
The
person?
MR STECHER:
Well, I imagine it would have been Nino.
2285
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
I
M.G. STECHER
1
wasn’t involved in that transaction at all.
2
expect it was Nino.
3
4
MS HARRIS:
MR STECHER:
6
MS HARRIS:
8
9
Can you explain then why the invoice was going to
Innovating Visuals?
5
7
But I would
No.
Can you – do you know how was – who at Innovating
Visuals DyCom dealt with?
MR STECHER:
No.
No.
Well, I believe it was Robert Napoli.
I didn’t at the time.
10
MS HARRIS:
11
MR STECHER:
What makes you think that?
Because again, I have read through the – and I
12
have discovered he’s – that’s his ....., sorry, my
13
apologies.
14
MS HARRIS:
15
MR STECHER:
16
17
Mr Calleja?
Mr Calleja, yes.
I had never heard of Mr Calleja
until late last year.
MS HARRIS:
18
year?
19
MR STECHER:
In what context did you hear of him late last
Well he was storing a lot of – I was Carlo’s
20
workshop at one stage and he had a whole rack of stuff
21
that he was storing for Mr Calleja.
22
think the relationship with he and Mr Calleja had fallen
23
apart.
24
that name.
25
MS HARRIS:
26
MR STECHER:
27
28
29
30
And at that time I
And so that was really the first time I heard
What time of year was that?
I believe it was after June, so it was mid to
late last year.
MS HARRIS:
And what items were being stored there?
What did
you see?
MR STECHER:
Actually, there were just pallets of stuff that
2286
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
looked like boxes.
2
It was just pallets of stuff.
3
MS HARRIS:
4
MR STECHER:
I didn’t know what was in the boxes.
Where were they?
They were in his – he has got a – like a large
5
storage are where he services trucks and things like that
6
so it was against the back wall.
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
9
And what did he say to you about Mr Calleja?
Well, he just said that he had actually done a
lot of work for Mr Calleja and stored a lot of stuff when
10
he was charging for, and now for some reason the
11
relationship had fallen apart and - - -
12
MS HARRIS:
13
MR STECHER:
Did he tell you why?
Yes, because at that time he was being
14
investigated and asked not to say anything – Mr Calleja
15
was asked not to talk with Carlo.
16
MS HARRIS:
17
MR STECHER:
18
MS HARRIS:
And Mr Squillacioti conveyed that to you, did he?
Yes.
Then if you have been following the transcripts
19
you would be aware then that Mr Calleja says that he
20
never received the computer on this invoice, but paid the
21
invoice on instruction from Nino Napoli.
22
reading that evidence?
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
Do you recall
Yes.
And that would be consistent with the evidence you
25
have just given that you believe that computer went to Mr
26
Napoli?
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Out of interest, Mr Stecher, you would have seen
29
that Mr Calleja also gave evidence that Mr Napoli
30
instructed him to write invoices to schools for goods and
2287
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
services that weren’t provided.
2
MR STECHER:
3
MS HARRIS:
4
5
6
Yes.
Were you ever given those instructions by Mr
Napoli?
MR O’BRYAN:
Do you mean was the witness ever told that by Mr
Napoli?
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR O’BRYAN:
9
MS HARRIS:
10
Did you read that?
No, were you ever instructed by Mr Napoli - - Yes, sorry.
- - - to write an invoice for goods or services
not provided by DyCom?
11
MR STECHER:
No.
12
MR O’BRYAN:
That computer we’re talking about that went to Mr
13
Napoli’s, did you in more recent times come to look at
14
that in terms of deleting anything on that?
15
MR STECHER:
16
sure.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
18
MR STECHER:
Just depends on when we provided it.
19
20
That possibly was the same computer.
I’m not
They
generally had a life-cycle of three years or so.
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, do you recall seeing anything that required
21
deletion in terms of coming from Innovating Visuals, like
22
an invoice?
23
MR STECHER:
No.
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
25
MS HARRIS:
So your evidence, then, is that each invoice – I
26
should ask this:
27
instructions by Mr Napoli, that is, to write an invoice
28
for goods and services not provided.
29
anyone within DyCom being given those instructions?
30
MR STECHER:
you said that you weren’t given those
Are you aware of
No.
2288
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MS HARRIS:
would accurately reflect the goods and services provided?
3
MR STECHER:
4
MS HARRIS:
5
So your evidence, then, is that a DyCom invoice
Yes, I believe so.
Except on the occasions that Mr Napoli asked for
them to be amended.
6
MR STECHER:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
9
MS HARRIS:
Mmm.
Yes?
Yes.
In relation – and except for the Innovating
10
Visuals one also.
11
it, not to Innovating Visuals?
12
MR STECHER:
That was provided to Mr Napoli, wasn’t
It may well have been, yes.
I – as I say, I
13
don’t – I didn’t get involved in that transaction so
14
- - -
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR STECHER:
17
MS HARRIS:
You indicated that you worked with Ralph Barba.
Yes.
Are you – can you – are you able to tell us a list
18
essentially of the relatives of Mr Napoli that you’ve
19
worked with?
20
MR STECHER:
Ralph – Ralph Barba, I only met last year and I
21
did one job for him which was backup his systems again
22
for the reasons that he needed to continue to operate if
23
his systems were taken, which they were.
24
MS HARRIS:
25
MR STECHER:
26
MS HARRIS:
27
MR STECHER:
28
MS HARRIS:
29
30
And Ralph Barba is Nino Napoli’s brother-in-law?
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Who else?
You’ve already mentioned Carlo
Squillacioti.
MR STECHER:
Yes.
2289
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR O’BRYAN:
Was there any deletions from Mr Barba’s system?
2
MR STECHER:
No, no.
3
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
4
MR STECHER:
It was a very simple backup which was fortunate
5
because the system backup – backup wasn’t working so we
6
recovered it and that was the only job that we did.
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
9
Who else?
Obviously there was Sharon, Dominic Barba who’s
Josie – Nino’s wife’s brother.
We – we deal with him.
10
He did our accounts for some years and we also provided
11
his computer systems and support for all his computer
12
systems for quite some years.
13
quite well.
14
well.
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR STECHER:
17
18
19
MS HARRIS:
21
MS HARRIS:
Have you worked with Gus Napoli?
No.
We had – had some communication about doing
Have you worked at his school, John Fawkner
I don’t believe so, no.
Yes.
Sorry, I interrupted you.
You said Rob
Napoli.
23
MR STECHER:
24
MS HARRIS:
Robbie Napoli.
Yes, I know Robbie.
Have you done any work or has DyCom done any work
with him?
26
MR STECHER:
27
MS HARRIS:
28
MR STECHER:
29
MS HARRIS:
30
I know Robbie Napoli.
College?
MR STECHER:
25
I know Gus Napoli.
I know Carlo’s family quite
work but we’ve never really done anything.
20
22
Nino’s sons.
I know both of his sons
I don’t believe so.
Yes.
No.
Anyone else?
No one I can recollect right at the moment.
Mr Stecher, throughout your evidence, you’ve
indicated several times that information or documents
2290
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
would be on your computer system at work.
2
MR STECHER:
3
MS HARRIS:
Yes.
Including some emails and I think you indicated to
4
the Commissioner the email from Nino Napoli in relation
5
to preparing the spreadsheet.
6
MR STECHER:
7
MS HARRIS:
8
MR STECHER:
9
MS HARRIS:
10
MR STECHER:
11
MS HARRIS:
12
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
Are you happy to provide those - - I am.
- - - documents to IBAC investigators?
I am, yes.
Thank you, Commissioner.
Thank you, Ms Harris.
What’s the position with –
13
putting aside possible cross-examination, is it unlikely
14
- - -
15
MS HARRIS:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
This witness may need to come back, sir.
May need.
All right.
Well, Mr Barns, as you’ve
17
heard counsel assisting may or may not need to have your
18
client back depending on what other evidence we hear, so
19
there is that possibility and also there is a possibility
20
– possibly remote, but possibility someone might apply to
21
cross-examine your client and may get leave to do so and
22
that would have to bring him back too.
23
defer the possibility of you asking any questions?
24
MR BARNS:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
Are you happy to
I am.
All right.
Thank you.
And I wonder if you could
26
keep in touch or your side with the solicitor assisting
27
the Commission, Ms Walker, in terms of us assuming that
28
if your client wasn’t required back for any purpose,
29
assuming, unless you tell us within, say, a fortnight,
30
you had some questions you wanted to ask, that we would
2291
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
assume you didn’t or - - -
2
MR BARNS:
Yes.
3
MR O’BRYAN:
No, we’re happy to do that.
- - - on that basis.
Yes, all right.
Thank you
4
very much, Mr Barns.
Mr Stecher, your examination may
5
need to be continued at a later date and is therefore
6
adjourned to a date and time to be fixed.
7
bound by the summons and confidentiality notice and you
8
may be recalled at any time during the course of this
9
investigation to give further evidence.
You remain
10
Through your legal representatives, you will be
11
advised in writing if that is to occur and of a date and
12
time, and you will also be advised in writing when you
13
are no longer required.
14
stop the recording.
15
now and you may leave the witness box.
16
Stecher.
The time now is 2.24 pm.
The examination is now concluded for
Thank you, Mr
17
MR STECHER:
Thank you.
18
MR O’BRYAN:
And you’re excused from the bar table.
19
Please
Thank
you, Mr Barns.
20
MR BARNS:
Thanks very much, Commissioner.
21
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
[2.25 pm]
22
2292
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MS HARRIS:
Commissioner, I understand that the next witness
2
may be a couple of minutes away.
3
short adjournment, please.
4
5
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
to be called.
All right.
If we could have a
We will adjourn and I will wait
Thank you.
6
ADJOURNED
[2.25 pm]
7
RESUMED
[2.33 pm]
8
MR O’BRYAN:
9
Thanks.
recorded.
This examination is to be video
Please commence the recording.
Today’s date
10
is 25 May 2015 and the time is 2.33 pm.
11
Stephen O’Bryan.
12
powers delegated to me by instrument dated 5 September
13
2013, a copy of which has already been marked exhibit 1.
14
This examination is being held and conducted under part 6
15
of the Independent Broad-based Anti-corruption Commission
16
Act 2011 as part of an investigation under part 3 of that
17
Act.
18
My name is
I am conducting this examination under
I take this opportunity to draw your attention, Mr
19
Napoli – where’s Mr Napoli?
Yes, good afternoon.
And to
20
your counsel who I understand is Mr Loxley.
21
afternoon, Mr Loxley.
22
is inquisitorial in nature.
23
bound by the rules of evidence and can regulate the
24
conduct of the examination in such ways as I consider
25
appropriate.
Good
To the fact that this examination
This means that I am not
The examination is open to the public.
26
Mr Napoli, you may be represented by Mr Loxley,
27
however, the IBAC Act gives me the power to review that
28
decision in certain circumstances and, Mr Loxley, you
29
will be extended an opportunity at an appropriate stage
30
after the examination has concluded to ask your client
2229
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
DISCUSSION
1
any questions you feel could clarify his answers or to
2
make a statement or submissions on his behalf should you
3
wish to.
4
Mr Loxley, I’m required to inform you as your
5
client’s legal representative of certain nondisclosure
6
requirements which apply to you pursuant to sections
7
130(1)(d) and 44(2)(b) of the IBAC Act, namely, you may
8
not disclose the restricted matters specified in the
9
confidentiality notice received by your client and dated
10
16 March 2015 to any other person while the notice has
11
effect.
12
To do so is a criminal offence.
You may disclose the restricted matters specified in
13
the confidentiality notice in accordance with a direction
14
or authorisation given by me or another appropriately
15
qualified IBAC officer or for the purposes of complying
16
with a legal duty of disclosure or a professional
17
obligation arising from your professional representation.
18
I would ask you at this stage, Mr Napoli, to please enter
19
the witness box.
20
Napoli, do you have a middle name?
21
MR G. NAPOLI:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR O’BRYAN:
Please be seated, Mr Napoli.
Mr
Yes, I do.
What’s that?
Yes, that’s Claudio, spelt C-l-a-u-d-i-o.
Yes, thank you.
Pursuant to my delegated powers,
25
I now require you to either take an oath or to make an
26
affirmation.
Which of those two options do you prefer?
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
I’m happy to take an oath.
28
MR O’BRYAN:
29
GUS CLAUDIO NAPOLI, SWORN
30
MR O’BRYAN:
Take an oath.
[2.36 pm]
Because this is an inquisitorial examination, Mr
2230
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
Napoli, the procedure differs from procedures which are
2
adversarial in nature and of the kind you normally see in
3
the courts.
4
you on matters relevant to the subject matter of the
5
investigation and I may also ask you some questions and
6
when Mr Hill has concluded his questioning, Mr Loxley
7
will, as you’ve heard, be extended an opportunity to ask
8
you questions at an appropriate stage should he wish to
9
or to say something on your behalf relevant to the
10
Counsel assisting me, Mr Hill, will question
matters you’ve been examined on.
11
I’m required to advise you of the nature of the
12
matters in respect of which you will be asked questions
13
and they are to give evidence here in relation to your
14
knowledge of matters the subject of the scope and purpose
15
described in the preliminary information and directions
16
for public examinations in Operation Ord, a copy of which
17
was attached to your summons.
18
Mr Napoli, at the time you were served with a summons
19
to attend today, did you receive a document titled
20
Section 121(3)(c) Statement of Rights and Obligations?
21
MR G. NAPOLI:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
23
Yes, I did.
And has either Mr Loxley or your solicitor, Mr
Rapkey been through that document with you?
24
MR G. NAPOLI:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, they have.
Thank you.
Final matter I need to deal with –
26
because this investigation involves both a – involves a
27
protected disclosure, I’m required to advise both you, Mr
28
Napoli and Mr Loxley, of two matters pursuant to the
29
Protected Disclosures Act.
30
committing a criminal offence if you disclose the content
First, you would be
2231
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
or information about the content of the disclosure.
2
Secondly, you would also be committing a criminal offence
3
if you disclose information likely to lead the
4
identification of the person who made the assessable
5
disclosure.
6
things, which you may not.
7
That, of course, assume you know those
Mr Napoli, you may disclose the content or
8
information about the content of the protected disclosure
9
to your legal representatives for the purpose of
10
obtaining legal advice or as part of your representation
11
here.
12
exceptions which would allow such disclosure do not apply
13
in this case and I do not allow disclosure for any other
14
person.
15
information for the purposes of complying with a legal
16
duty of disclosure or a professional obligation arising
17
from your professional relationship with your client.
18
The examination will now commence and I authorise Mr Hill
19
to examine you.
20
21
MR HILL:
I am otherwise satisfied that the limited
23
MR HILL:
Yes, I am.
And you attend here in response to a summons that
was served upon you?
25
MR G. NAPOLI:
26
MR HILL:
Correct.
And I will have some documents handed to you, but
was that summons numbered SE1413?
28
MR G. NAPOLI:
29
MR HILL:
30
Mr Napoli, are you Gus
Claudio Napoli?
MR G. NAPOLI:
27
Thank you, Mr Hill.
Thank you, Commissioner.
22
24
And, Mr Loxley, you may disclose such
I believe it was, yes.
Just have a look at those documents to refresh your
memory.
2232
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
Yes.
I would say these are copies of the ones
I received, yes.
MR HILL:
And in addition to the summons that was served upon
4
you, you received a confidentiality notice dated 16 March
5
2015?
6
MR G. NAPOLI:
7
MR HILL:
Correct.
And, as you’ve already said, you received a document
8
titled Section 121, subsection (3)(c), Statement of
9
Rights and Obligations?
10
MR G. NAPOLI:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
13
MR HILL:
14
Correct.
And a covering letter dated 16 March 2015?
Yes, I did.
And they appear to be copies before you of the
documents that were served upon you?
15
MR G. NAPOLI:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR O’BRYAN:
18
Yes.
That would be correct.
I tender those four documents, Commissioner.
Yes.
Those documents as a bundle will be marked
exhibit #183.
19
EXHIBIT #183 BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS
20
MR HILL:
21
MR G. NAPOLI:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
Mr Napoli, are you a brother of Nino Napoli?
Correct.
And are you also a brother of Robert Napoli?
Yes, I am.
Since the summons was served upon you, have you
25
discussed the existence of the summons or the subject
26
matter of the investigation with any person other than
27
your legal representatives?
28
MR G. NAPOLI:
29
MR HILL:
30
No, I have not.
And when did you first become aware, prior to the
service of the summons on you, of an investigation into
2233
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
the Department of Education which included the activities
2
of your brother, Nino?
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
I would have first become aware – it would have
4
been in the second half of 2013.
5
October/November dates as an approximate.
6
MR HILL:
I’m thinking around the
And from that time until you received your summons,
7
have you discussed the subject matter of the
8
investigation with your brother, Nino?
9
MR G. NAPOLI:
10
MR HILL:
11
MR G. NAPOLI:
12
When you say “some conversations”, many?
MR HILL:
14
MR G. NAPOLI:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR G. NAPOLI:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR G. NAPOLI:
19
MR HILL:
Right.
Yes.
Yes.
22
MR HILL:
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
26
And where were those conversations held?
Often at his house.
At his home.
And were there other people present?
Only generally Nino or his wife, Josie.
Anyone else other than Nino or his wife,
Nothing that really sticks out.
Now, when did you join the Education Department?
I first joined in – it would be 1986 at the end
of my teacher training as a teacher.
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes.
And have you remained continuously with the
Education Department since joining it in 1986?
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
Yes.
Josie, present at the discussions?
MR G. NAPOLI:
25
I
Sorry?
21
24
I would say that there has been some.
wouldn’t say many.
13
20
There has been some conversations.
Yes, I have.
And what’s your current position?
I’m currently the principal at John Fawkner
College.
2234
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MR HILL:
Yes.
that’s John Fawkner Secondary College?
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR G. NAPOLI:
6
7
8
9
10
And when did you join the John Fawkner –
Correct, yes.
When did you join that college?
Would have been at the commencement of the 2008
school year.
MR HILL:
That would be January 2008.
And prior to the John Fawkner Secondary College,
where were you?
MR G. NAPOLI:
Prior to that, I was at Taylors Lakes Secondary
College.
11
MR HILL:
And were you the assistant principal there?
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
I was the assistant principal when I commenced
13
that role there in 2001 up until my appointment at John
14
Fawkner Secondary College, so I was there until 2007.
15
However, having said that, I was previously a teacher at
16
Taylors Lakes Secondary College having started there in
17
1992 as one of the inaugural staff to commence the
18
school.
19
MR HILL:
So essentially, if we start from the year 2001 and
20
move forward to now, you were the assistant principal
21
from 2001 through to the end of 2007 at Taylors Lakes
22
Secondary School - - -
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
Correct.
- - - and then promoted to the principal of the John
25
Fawkner Secondary College, taking up your position at the
26
beginning of 2008 and holding it until now.
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
28
MR HILL:
That’s correct.
I wonder if we could have the John Fawkner Secondary
29
College graphic on the screen.
Mr Napoli, what we
30
propose to ask you today are questions concerning the
2235
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
John Fawkner Secondary College, particularly in respect
2
to 33 invoices totalling $66,411.88 that were paid by
3
your school to R and D Diamond Nominees Proprietary
4
Limited and nine invoices paid by your school to Four
5
Diegos Proprietary Limited totalling the sum of $29,854,
6
making in all a total of just over $96,000.
7
R and D Diamond Nominees Proprietary Limited, who are the
8
directors, as you know it, of that company?
9
10
MR G. NAPOLI:
The company
That would be Robert Napoli, my brother, and
his wife, Domenica Napoli.
11
MR HILL:
Right.
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR G. NAPOLI:
15
MR HILL:
16
MR G. NAPOLI:
17
MR HILL:
Yes.
And what type of business do they do?
Printing.
Right.
Yes.
And have they, between 2007 and 2014, performed
18
printing tasks for the John Fawkner Secondary College
19
- - -
20
MR G. NAPOLI:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR G. NAPOLI:
23
MR HILL:
Yes, they have.
- - - to the value of $66,411.88?
That would be correct.
Could we have, please, on the screen page 1 of court
24
book 22.
These are extracts from the bank account of R
25
and D Diamond Nominees Proprietary Limited and you will
26
see that the very first of those entries is a payment by
27
the John Fawkner Secondary College to R and D Diamond
28
Nominees on 28 February 2008 of $4798.75.
29
accord with your memory as to the first business
30
transaction between your school and R and D Diamond
2236
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
Does that
M.G. STECHER
1
Nominees Proprietary Limited?
2
MR G. NAPOLI:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
5
MR HILL:
From what I recall, that would be correct.
Yes.
Yes.
Now, if we’re not incorrect in our understanding,
6
you had just come to John Fawkner Secondary College as of
7
the beginning of 2008?
8
MR G. NAPOLI:
9
MR HILL:
What, did you start on 1 January or some time later?
10
MR G. NAPOLI:
11
MR HILL:
12
13
Correct.
I would have started mid-January, yes.
So what work did R and D Diamond Nominees
Proprietary Limited do for the John Fawkner school?
MR G. NAPOLI:
For that particular – yes.
Look, obviously I
14
would need to look at exactly what the work was, but I
15
would assume that, very early on in the piece, it was to
16
do with promotional material that I needed to get out and
17
refresh a number of what was fairly stale type of PR
18
material the school had and needed to get that out pretty
19
much quickly as soon as I started.
20
MR HILL:
Yes.
You had been with the Department for, at that
21
stage, some 20-odd years, 22 years I think on your
22
evidence;
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
25
That would be about right, yes.
So you would know something of the procurement
policies of the Department.
26
MR G. NAPOLI:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR G. NAPOLI:
29
MR HILL:
30
yes?
Yes.
Yes, I do.
And you would have at that time.
Yes, I would have.
And you would have known whether the Department had
or did not have preferred suppliers of printing and the
2237
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
4
like.
MR G. NAPOLI:
I would not have had a clear understanding of
that, no.
MR HILL:
No.
But if you didn’t have a clear understanding of
5
such policies, you could easily contact someone at head
6
office within the Department and find out what the
7
policies were.
8
MR G. NAPOLI:
9
MR HILL:
I could do that.
It seems that very soon after you had commenced as
10
principal at the John Fawkner Secondary College that your
11
school engaged the services of your brother’s company.
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
13
MR HILL:
14
15
16
Well, that – that would appear so, yes.
Yes.
Had you used your brother’s company prior to
that date when you had been at Taylors Lakes?
MR G. NAPOLI:
Yes, he would have done some work at Taylors
Lakes, yes.
17
MR HILL:
Did he?
18
MR G. NAPOLI:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR G. NAPOLI:
Yes.
Yes, he did.
What sort of work did he do at Taylors Lakes?
Well, a range of work again.
It would have
21
been from promotional material to some office requisites
22
and so forth.
23
MR HILL:
24
MR G. NAPOLI:
25
Where were his offices at that time?
I believe they were always in – in Sunshine.
In North Sunshine actually, yes.
26
MR HILL:
And where’s the John Fawkner Secondary College?
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
28
MR HILL:
Yes.
It’s in Fawkner.
How did it come about that he was – or his
29
company was appointed to do this first job with the John
30
Fawkner Secondary College?
2238
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MR G. NAPOLI:
opportunity to do some work at John Fawkner.
3
MR HILL:
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
5
He would have spoken to me about, is there any
When you say “would have”, did he?
Well, he did.
He did.
He did approach me
about that.
6
MR HILL:
When did he approach you?
7
MR G. NAPOLI:
That would have been over the course of me
8
commencing at John Fawkner College so I would – I would
9
imagine, looking at that particular document there,
10
probably over the January, December period, knowing that
11
I was appointed there.
12
MR HILL:
Right.
So very soon after you had been appointed,
13
he approached you to see if there was an opportunity for
14
his company to do some work for your school.
15
MR G. NAPOLI:
16
MR HILL:
17
18
Correct.
Did he indicate the nature of the work he was
prepared to do?
MR G. NAPOLI:
He indicated could he – could he quote on some
19
of the – some of the work that, you know, was going to be
20
required at the school, yes.
21
MR HILL:
Did he quote for this particular job?
22
MR G. NAPOLI:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR G. NAPOLI:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR G. NAPOLI:
Yes, he would have.
Well, when you say “would have”, did he?
Yes, he did.
Yes.
How many quotes did you obtain?
I can’t recall.
I would need to look at
27
specifically what that particular job was.
28
– you know, there would have been a quote for that.
29
30
MR HILL:
But, yes, he
Well, let’s just call some trade on other quotes.
What was your understanding of the procurement policy in
2239
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
respect to getting other quotes, particularly as of the
2
beginning of 2008?
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
That my understanding was that where an item
4
was over $5000, it required more than one quote.
5
where an item was under $5000, that was not needed.
6
7
MR HILL:
Right.
MR G. NAPOLI:
9
MR HILL:
11
12
13
Well, this item appears to be just under
$5000, does it not?
8
10
Yes, it does.
So can we take it that it’s unlikely that you would
have insisted upon getting another quote?
MR G. NAPOLI:
I – I would say that’s – that may be the case,
yes.
MR HILL:
Yes.
And this wasn’t just simply him quoting out of
14
the blue.
15
company, be prepared to do a specific job.
16
MR G. NAPOLI:
17
MR HILL:
18
But
You asked him whether he would, through his
Correct.
And having told him what the specific job was to be,
you, no doubt, told him that he had to provide a quote.
19
MR G. NAPOLI:
20
MR HILL:
Correct.
And you would have also told him that if it was
21
under $5000 the job would be his because you wouldn’t
22
have to put it to other quotes.
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR G. NAPOLI:
26
No, but that was the fact of the matter.
Well, that’s the procurements process, but
that’s not what I would have said.
27
MR HILL:
28
MR G. NAPOLI:
29
MR HILL:
30
I wouldn’t have said that.
Yes.
But that’s what happened.
Is that right?
Well, the quote is for under $5000, yes.
Did you disclose to anyone within the Department,
particularly when you started as principal at the John
2240
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
Fawkner Secondary College, that R and D Diamond Nominees
2
Proprietary Limited was essentially a company being run
3
by your brother and sister-in-law?
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR G. NAPOLI:
7
MR HILL:
8
MR G. NAPOLI:
9
Yes, I did.
Who to?
That would have been to my school council.
Yes.
It would have been well known within the school
community.
10
MR HILL:
Right.
11
MR G. NAPOLI:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
Yes.
Anyone within the Department?
At that time there would have not been anyone
14
in the Department.
15
my school community.
16
MR HILL:
17
MR G. NAPOLI:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR G. NAPOLI:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR G. NAPOLI:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
25
It would have been – just been within
Well, who’s your superior if you – if you like?
That would be my regional director.
And your regional director at that time?
Was Wayne Craig.
Wayne Craig?
Correct.
If you just talk into the other microphone.
Sorry.
I know it’s polite to look at me, but the other
microphone actually amplifies.
26
MR G. NAPOLI:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR G. NAPOLI:
29
MR HILL:
30
MR G. NAPOLI:
Works better, does it?
No, it amplifies.
Okay.
The other one records.
Thank you.
So your regional manager was Wayne Craig.
Correct.
2241
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR HILL:
Did you tell him that, as principal of the Fawkner –
2
John Fawkner Secondary College, that you proposed to have
3
financial dealings with your brother’s company?
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
5
MR HILL:
6
7
At that stage I didn’t.
Did you not see that there may be a potential
conflict of interests?
MR G. NAPOLI:
My understanding at that time was that you
8
reveal your conflict of interest to your school council
9
and your school community.
10
I did not have an awareness
that I needed to report that to a line manager.
11
MR HILL:
Right.
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR G. NAPOLI:
Is that still your understanding?
No, not at all.
What’s your understanding now?
My understanding is – and I’ve taken steps –
15
last year I attended a principal briefing in which
16
conduct and ethics was run in a session on conflict of
17
interest.
18
line manager needs to be informed.
19
become aware of that, I went through the process.
20
informed my regional director to make them aware that I
21
had been using my brother to do some printing.
22
known that back in 2008, given that I’ve revealed that to
23
my school community, I would have – I would have
24
absolutely informed the regional director.
25
MR HILL:
It was revealed to me at that time that your
The moment I was – I
I
Had I
Did your inquiries last year reveal that it, in
26
effect, has always been the policy that you should tell –
27
or must tell your regional director of any potential
28
conflicts of interest in dealings that the school has
29
with external providers?
30
MR G. NAPOLI:
Yes.
2242
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR HILL:
Yes.
2
MR G. NAPOLI:
3
MR HILL:
But you only found that out last year.
Correct.
Because, as we’ve seen on the graphic – if we could
4
just have the graphic up briefly again.
5
separate invoices over a period between February 2008 and
6
December 2013 where your brother’s company, R and D
7
Diamond Nominees Proprietary Limited, provided either
8
goods and/or services to the John Fawkner Secondary
9
College.
10
MR G. NAPOLI:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
13
MR HILL:
There are 33
Correct.
And you would agree with that.
Yes, I agree.
Yes.
Could we just – I’m sorry, could we just go
14
back to page 1 of court book 22.
15
Napoli, that you will remember each of these
16
transactions, but we will just scroll through them fairly
17
slowly.
18
one in 28 April.
19
are four transactions in 2008.
20
until April 2010.
21
MR G. NAPOLI:
22
MR HILL:
23
I’m not suggesting, Mr
You will see that the next one is 18 April, then
Then we go to 14 November.
Then there’s a hiatus
Do you see that?
Yes, I do.
And this time the amount is $6395.
missed one.
24
MR O’BRYAN:
25
MR HILL:
So there
Thank you.
I’m sorry, I
Could we just go back to - - -
It’s up there.
- - - 30 April.
Thank you.
30 April 2010, the
26
amount is $9055.20.
27
telling us earlier that you would have got quotations for
28
that job from other external providers?
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
MR HILL:
Do we take it from what you were
That would be my understanding, yes.
When you say that would your understanding, did that
2243
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
happen?
2
MR G. NAPOLI:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
5
Yes.
How many external providers?
Anything over $5000 requires more than one
quote.
6
MR HILL:
How many other quotes did you get?
7
MR G. NAPOLI:
I would have to go back to what that particular
8
invoice is, but I dare say there would be at least two –
9
minimum of two.
10
11
MR HILL:
Right.
Yes.
So you would have gone to two other external
providers to have them quote on that particular job?
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
13
MR HILL:
Correct.
How did you find them?
Did you find them through
14
Yellow Pages, or through a recommendation from someone on
15
the school council, or through the Department itself?
16
MR G. NAPOLI:
It would be a combination of recommendations;
17
it would be a combination – sorry, it would also be
18
through asking my office staff to contact someone for an
19
additional quote for those services.
20
nothing more than one way.
21
MR HILL:
Right.
So it was often
Yes.
And did you ascertain whether the Department
22
had a preferred supplier of – and this was printing work
23
basically, wasn’t it?
24
MR G. NAPOLI:
25
MR HILL:
26
Correct.
And did you ascertain whether the Department had a
preferred supplier in respect to printing services?
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
28
MR HILL:
No, I didn’t.
It wouldn’t have taken much imagination though, Mr
29
Napoli, to think that the likelihood is the Department
30
would have used one printer for most of its work.
2244
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR G. NAPOLI:
I would imagine that would be the case, but my
2
understanding at the time was that we could go and source
3
our own work as well.
4
5
6
MR HILL:
All right.
Well, you sourced two other quotes.
Why were they unsuccessful?
MR G. NAPOLI:
I would imagine it would be – I would have to
7
go back and look at that one, but it was always based on
8
service and the price itself.
9
MR HILL:
Was there ever an occasion during the period that
10
we’re looking at at John Fawkner Secondary College where
11
your brother, through R and D Diamond Nominees
12
Proprietary Limited, unsuccessfully quoted for a job?
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR G. NAPOLI:
Yes.
Yes.
What jobs did he unsuccessfully quote for?
There would be a number of occasions.
One that
16
comes to mind would be in 2010 when the school went
17
through a significant change agenda and a name change.
18
The contract for the supply of new stationery, and the
19
graphic design of that and a number of other material was
20
awarded to Excise Printing.
21
- - -
22
MR HILL:
There was also where the
Could we just – before we move on to the next one,
23
if we could just examine that one for a moment.
24
they successful and why was your brother unsuccessful?
25
MR G. NAPOLI:
Why were
They were successful at that time, that the
26
region had suggested that this company has done work in
27
the past when it comes to this type of name change with
28
schools, so they had actually been involved with the
29
Broadmeadows regeneration project and had some –
30
effectively some rungs on the board in terms of doing
2245
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
that type of work and they, therefore, provided the
2
services and the quote.
3
MR HILL:
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
5
MR HILL:
6
7
8
9
So they came through the regional director?
Correct.
In effect, it was a directive to you to use them,
presumingly because it was a large job?
MR G. NAPOLI:
It was a large job and it was a preferred
provider by the region, yes.
MR HILL:
Clearly thereafter, you went back on the smaller
10
jobs to using your brother.
Why was that rather than to
11
use the preferred supplier that had come through the
12
region?
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
Because, once again, it was to do with the
14
uniqueness of that project, and my view was and my
15
understanding was that that was the one the region wanted
16
to use for that particular name change process we were
17
going through.
18
MR HILL:
But you’re not suggesting they couldn’t have done
19
the other tasks that R and D Diamond Nominees Proprietary
20
Limited thereafter did?
21
22
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
I would imagine they would have been able to do
those tasks, yes.
MR HILL:
Yes.
Because you now understand, don’t you, one of
24
the difficulties with conflict of interests as being the
25
perception of favouritism?
26
MR G. NAPOLI:
27
MR HILL:
28
Correct.
And a perception that someone is being looked after
who may not be quoting the cheapest price possible?
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
That’s the perception.
You said on a number of – well, you’ve said
2246
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
that there were a number of other jobs that R and D
2
Diamond Nominees Proprietary Limited unsuccessfully
3
quoted for.
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR G. NAPOLI:
Correct.
The nature of those tasks?
Over recent years, we’ve gone to a different
7
supplier when – the design, the development and
8
publication of the student year book, that same task
9
that’s given to one of my staff to have a look at what
10
sources to use to get that published.
11
definitely gone to a different company.
12
number of - - -
13
MR HILL:
14
MR G. NAPOLI:
That has
There has been a
When was that?
I would have to get my records out for the name
15
of that company, but I do have the name of that company.
16
That’s – it’s a - - -
17
MR HILL:
18
MR G. NAPOLI:
19
20
No.
When - - Sorry.
2012, 2013, 2014 we have used a
different supplier.
MR HILL:
It appears to us that since 18 December 2013, you
21
have not used R and D Diamond Nominees Proprietary
22
Limited at John Fawkner.
23
is the last of the bank entries from R and D Diamond
24
Nominees.
25
access to, to be the last time – that is entry number 33
26
– the last time that John Fawkner Secondary College used
27
the services of R and D Diamond Nominees Proprietary
28
Limited.
29
30
MR G. NAPOLI:
Can we just put page 3 up which
That appears, from the records that we have
Does that accord with your recollection?
Not really.
I’m surprised at that.
I had the
assumption that we would have used them after that period
2247
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
of time.
2
MR HILL:
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
4
MR HILL:
5
6
Right.
Yes.
Do you have any specific recollection of using them
last year or this year?
MR G. NAPOLI:
Definitely not this year, but I thought in the
7
early parts of last year that there might have still been
8
some work that they were doing.
9
10
11
MR HILL:
Why are you able to say, “Definitely not this year.”
MR G. NAPOLI:
MR HILL:
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
15
Because I know his business has closed down.
Yes.
12
14
Yes.
Do you know when his business closed down?
I thought it was at the beginning of this year
or late last year.
MR HILL:
Right.
And is that your recollection as to why you
16
stopped using R and D Diamond Nominees Proprietary
17
Limited, because they’re no longer trading?
18
MR G. NAPOLI:
19
MR HILL:
Correct.
I take it that the task of a school principal of a
20
secondary college such as John Fawkner is fairly time
21
consuming?
22
MR G. NAPOLI:
23
MR HILL:
Yes.
It has its moments.
And did you on each of these 33 occasions ask
24
your brother to, in effect, submit a quote for these
25
tasks?
26
MR G. NAPOLI:
As I said, if it’s under $5000, there would not
27
have been a need.
Some of that was repeat work and quite
28
a number of those 33 quotes there would have been
29
generated by my office staff and other people in the
30
school that were running different programs or
2248
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
departments that they would just generally order the
2
work.
3
MR HILL:
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
5
6
Well - - So it wasn’t – if you’re asking was it
specifically me that asked for those quotes, it wasn’t.
MR HILL:
Let’s just examine it.
Can we take it that on each
7
of the 33 occasions, R and D Diamond Nominees Proprietary
8
Limited would have rendered a quote?
9
10
11
MR G. NAPOLI:
MR HILL:
To render the quote, they would have to know that
there was a job available.
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
13
MR HILL:
14
Yes.
Correct.
And these are not the sort of jobs that are
advertised.
15
MR G. NAPOLI:
16
MR HILL:
Correct.
So it means that someone has to, either in writing
17
or orally, inform them that there’s a task in the nature
18
of printing that needs to be done for the John Fawkner
19
Secondary College.
20
MR G. NAPOLI:
21
MR HILL:
22
And presumably, throughout this period you were
seeing your brother on a very frequent basis?
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR G. NAPOLI:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
28
29
30
That would be correct.
Well, semi-frequently.
Close family?
Relatively, yes.
How often would you see your brother?
With Robert, I would probably see him once
every couple of weeks.
MR HILL:
And presumably, if there was a printing job coming
up, when you saw him you would say, “Robert, there’s a
2249
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
printing job coming up.
2
us an invoice.”
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR G. NAPOLI:
This is what it entails.
Give
Quite truthfully, that wouldn’t be the case.
What would be the case truthfully?
The case would be that he would have been
6
contacted by someone at my school to say that particular
7
printing needs were required.
8
was repeat work, because of work they had done in the
9
past.
10
Some of that, as I said,
So I didn’t get involved with those, and all I
would really do is just sign the order book.
11
12
13
14
&&&
2250
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR HILL:
2
early in your role as principal at the school that R and
3
D Diamond Nominees Proprietary Limited be used for these
4
small printing jobs;
5
MR G. NAPOLI:
6
MR HILL:
Presumably, you established the pattern quite
would you agree with that?
I wouldn’t agree with that.
Here it is, you’ve been at the school all of but a
7
couple of weeks, if that, and you’ve got your brother
8
doing a task for the school, yes?
9
10
11
MR G. NAPOLI:
MR HILL:
It’s followed fairly quickly by other printing
tasks.
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR G. NAPOLI:
15
16
17
18
19
20
Correct.
They would have been done at your direction?
direction.
MR HILL:
Correct.
No.
Some of those would have been under my
Not all.
When you say “not all”,
which ones are you
saying weren’t done at your direction?
MR G. NAPOLI:
I go back to that my staff weren’t directed by
me that they are to use R and D Printing.
MR HILL:
Your staff would have known very early on in your
21
term as principal of the John Fawkner Secondary College
22
that R and D Nominees Proprietary Limited were run by
23
your brother and sister-in-law.
24
MR G. NAPOLI:
25
MR HILL:
26
Correct.
They would have known that for at least the very
first job, you had appointed them - - -
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
MR HILL:
Correct.
- - - to do that task.
Yes.
Correct.
And thereafter, you didn’t advise your staff
2251
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
not to use them.
MR G. NAPOLI:
I would – I would never have said “don’t use
3
them”, but I would never have said that “you have to use
4
them”.
5
MR HILL:
And you – because you were unaware of any potential
6
problem with conflict of interests, did not tell your
7
staff of any such conflict, potentially.
8
9
10
MR G. NAPOLI:
At that – that stage, yes, I believe I revealed
my conflict of interest to my college community, yes.
MR HILL:
Since, have you revealed to your staff your improved
11
understanding and knowledge as to what conflict of
12
interests are about?
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
14
MR HILL:
15
Yes, I have.
Just on that, you have an employee teacher, do you
not at the moment, by the name of Matthew Napoli?
16
MR G. NAPOLI:
17
MR HILL:
18
MR G. NAPOLI:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR G. NAPOLI:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR G. NAPOLI:
23
MR HILL:
24
MR G. NAPOLI:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR G. NAPOLI:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR G. NAPOLI:
Correct.
Is he employed directly by the school?
He’s employed by the Department of Education.
Okay.
Yes.
And is he a relative of yours?
He’s my nephew.
In fact, he’s Nino Napoli’s son.
Yes.
Yes.
Correct.
When did he start working for you?
Commencement of this year.
And how was his selection made?
Sure.
The merit process is very clear in the
29
selection of a staff member.
When the position was
30
advertised at the end of last year and there was four
2252
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
positions advertised, that being one of them, he
2
indicated to me he was interested in that position.
3
moment he indicated that, I contacted conducts – conducts
4
and ethics to explain what is my process that I’m
5
required to follow here.
6
The
They indicated to me very quickly that, “Please, that
7
you declare that to your line manager,” my regional
8
director, “and you remove yourself from the process.”
9
understanding of the merit process is if someone is
My
10
suitably qualified for the position, regardless of
11
whether they’re a nephew, a – a sibling, whoever it might
12
be, that they have every right to apply for that
13
position.
14
MR HILL:
15
MR G. NAPOLI:
But in order to ensure that I don’t - - -
Influence?
- - - influence – thank you, I was looking for
16
the word – the process, I removed myself entirely from
17
that process.
18
process take its course.
19
MR HILL:
20
MR G. NAPOLI:
21
22
23
I declared the conflict, then I let the
Who sat on the selection - - The selection panel was – was my assistant
principal, Paula Condell.
MR HILL:
And how long has he been your assistant principal
- - -
24
MR G. NAPOLI:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR G. NAPOLI:
No, “Paula” is a she.
“She”.
Sorry.
Yes, Paula.
Yes.
Paula had been – she has
27
been in the acting role for the last two years and was
28
appointed substantive assistant principal earlier this
29
year.
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
2253
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR G. NAPOLI:
There was also one of my leadership team
2
members, Glenn White, a very experienced ex-principal on
3
staff that he was on the panel.
4
Department, given that Matthew’s position was a physical
5
education position.
6
who’s the head of my PE department.
7
people who sat on the panel.
8
9
10
MR HILL:
Right.
And the head of the
Head of Department, Caitlyn Besam,
They were the three
So the three people who sat on the selection
panel were all people who worked at the school, that is,
at the John Fawkner Secondary College - - -
11
MR G. NAPOLI:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
14
MR HILL:
Correct.
- - - under your leadership.
Correct.
There was no independent person sitting on the
15
selection panel who either came from within the
16
Department of Education or outside of the school?
17
MR G. NAPOLI:
18
MR HILL:
19
The process doesn’t require that, no.
So the answer to my question is, “Yes, there was no
such person”?
20
MR G. NAPOLI:
21
MR HILL:
There was no – yes.
Could we just go to item 7 which is on page 1 of
22
court book 22.
23
recall that transaction at all, bearing in mind it’s
24
dated 22 December 2010 – and I should immediately point
25
out to you that’s the date of payment of the invoice so
26
the task was probably completed sometime prior to that
27
date.
28
You will see this is for $6395.
Do you
Do you recall that one?
MR G. NAPOLI:
I can’t recall specifically what that item is,
29
however, looking at the date, 22 December, schools
30
normally close at about that time so I can only imagine
2254
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
that that would be work as a lead up to the end of the
2
school year.
3
be something such as the yearbooks which are very
4
expensive item to print and put together.
5
6
7
MR HILL:
One of the things that come to mind would
And who in the past have done the yearbooks by way
of printing for the John Fawkner Secondary College?
MR G. NAPOLI:
R and D Printing had done some years and, as
8
I’ve said, over recent years, there’s a different
9
supplier.
10
MR HILL:
Well, this is December 2010.
11
MR G. NAPOLI:
12
MR HILL:
Correct.
There doesn’t seem to be in the records that we have
13
a corresponding entry for 2008 or 2009.
14
look at 2010, the yearbook printing is quite expensive
15
because they’re big and there’s a lot of them.
16
MR G. NAPOLI:
17
MR HILL:
18
That is, if you
Yes?
Correct.
And the value, you would say, of $6395 as the cost
seems to be a fair cost?
19
MR G. NAPOLI:
20
MR HILL:
Yes.
That is a fair cost.
But if you look at the previous entries – and we
21
will scroll back – you won’t see one around that figure
22
or at that time of the year.
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
I – I can only say sometimes the invoice would
24
run into the new year, depending on when the school
25
receives them.
26
MR HILL:
Well, we still won’t see any invoices.
Can you just
27
scroll – go back to number 1 and now scroll slowly so the
28
witness can follow it down and we will just go down to
29
the bottom of the page.
30
the three-year period that we’ve sort of looked, at any
There doesn’t seem to be, over
2255
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
invoices that would indicate that R and D Diamond
2
Nominees Proprietary Limited had in previous years at the
3
least done the yearbooks.
4
5
MR G. NAPOLI:
previously.
6
MR HILL:
7
MR G. NAPOLI:
8
MR HILL:
9
Right.
accurate - - MR G. NAPOLI:
11
MR HILL:
13
Yes.
So you think that these records may not be strictly
10
12
I can assure you that they did do the yearbooks
I - - -
- - - that there may have been more moneys spent on
R and D Diamond Nominees?
MR G. NAPOLI:
No, I wouldn’t suggest that.
No.
But I would
14
need to look at each one of those invoices to have a look
15
at exactly the breakdown of it - - -
16
MR HILL:
17
MR G. NAPOLI:
18
Right.
certainty or honesty.
19
MR HILL:
20
MR G. NAPOLI:
21
MR HILL:
22
23
- - - in order to answer your question with any
Right.
Yes.
So who did the yearbooks, can you say, the year
prior to you coming to the school?
MR G. NAPOLI:
I believe there was a company called Coburg
24
Printing that was doing quite a substantial amount of the
25
school’s printing work and I don’t know for sure but I
26
would imagine they might have been the ones.
27
MR HILL:
And presumably, they would have performed much of
28
the tasks in the past that R and D Diamond Nominees
29
performed after you became the principal.
30
MR G. NAPOLI:
Yes.
They would have performed quite a great
2256
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
deal of it.
2
MR HILL:
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
4
MR HILL:
5
Yes.
Yes.
Did they continue to quote for jobs?
In some cases, yes.
Did they continue to quote, for example, for the
yearbooks?
6
MR G. NAPOLI:
7
MR HILL:
No.
Was there any reason that they provided as to why
8
they were no longer quoting for work that they had quoted
9
for and successfully obtained in the past?
10
MR G. NAPOLI:
I couldn’t answer that in that I – that would
11
have been a task I gave to one of my staff members to
12
look after the yearbook.
13
and find the best supplier and the best service you can
14
receive.
15
terms of whether they were asked to quote or not.
16
MR HILL:
Their – their auspice would go
So, look, I couldn’t answer with any honesty in
Now, you’ve said before that you used R and D
17
Diamond Nominees Proprietary Limited whilst you were at
18
Taylors Lakes Secondary College.
19
MR G. NAPOLI:
20
MR HILL:
21
Correct.
And that you commenced there as the assistant
principal in - - -
22
MR G. NAPOLI:
23
MR HILL:
2001.
And remained until you went to John Fawkner
24
Secondary College.
25
after you at Taylors Lakes?
26
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
Taylors Lakes being a much larger environment
than where I am always had three assistant principals.
28
MR HILL:
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
Who became the assistant principal
Right.
So if you’re asking me directly who replaced
me, that would - - 2257
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR HILL:
Yes.
2
MR G. NAPOLI:
Yes, that would be – I believe the appointment
3
was of ..... who was in acting role and took on the
4
substantive role once I left.
5
6
7
MR HILL:
And who became the president – president – who
became the principal?
MR G. NAPOLI:
The principal there is Jeff Pell.
8
appointed there is 2001.
9
principal there.
10
MR HILL:
Was
He is currently still the
Now, can we just move to another topic, and that is
11
Four Diegos Proprietary Limited.
12
directors at Four Diegos Proprietary Limited?
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR G. NAPOLI:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR G. NAPOLI:
18
He’s not a relative of mine.
He’s a relative
of Nino’s.
20
MR G. NAPOLI:
21
MR HILL:
22
MR G. NAPOLI:
And how long have you known Ralph Barba for?
Approximately 30 years I would say.
And how was it that you came to first meet him?
Well, it would have been through family
initially, yes.
24
MR HILL:
25
MR G. NAPOLI:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
28
MR HILL:
30
That would be Ralph Barba.
And is Ralph Barba a relative of yours?
MR HILL:
29
Yes, I do.
Who?
19
23
Do you know any of the
Through Nino?
Yes.
Yes.
Through – obviously, yes.
Would you say you’re close with Nino?
Relatively.
And you have told us that in respect to Robert
you were seeing him every third week perhaps?
MR G. NAPOLI:
That would be a fair guess, yes.
2258
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR HILL:
What about Nino?
2
MR G. NAPOLI:
Nino would be similar, except for probably the
3
last year or so because I have been quite concerned about
4
his illness.
5
MR HILL:
Yes.
6
MR G. NAPOLI:
7
MR HILL:
I have visited him on a fairly regular basis.
And if we could just go back to the graphic, please.
8
You will see that during your time as the principal at
9
John Fawkner Secondary College Four Diegos Proprietary
10
Limited have sent nine invoices to a total of $29,854.
11
MR G. NAPOLI:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
14
MR HILL:
Correct.
That seems about right, does it?
Correct.
That sounds about right.
And could we have on screen page 5 of book 22?
15
Again, we have extracted from the bank account of Four
16
Diegos Proprietary Limited those amounts that were paid
17
to it by the John Fawkner Secondary College, and we might
18
just get on the screen the whole nine entries if we could
19
just scroll up a little.
20
If we go to the very first one, was that the first time
21
you at any school had used the services of Four Diegos
22
Proprietary Limited?
23
24
25
26
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
You can see the entries there.
That would be the first time that we had paid
to use the services of Four Diegos.
MR HILL:
Right.
Had they been doing unpaid or voluntary work
at John Fawkner Secondary College?
MR G. NAPOLI:
They had been doing some work on behalf of the
28
PFA which is the Football Players Association.
29
program called the Heroes Program.
30
MR HILL:
It’s a
That would be soccer?
2259
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR G. NAPOLI:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
Correct. Which I believe - - -
As opposed to Australian Rules Football?
Correct.
Correct.
Sorry.
And that would be a
4
program – a mentoring program which was run at the school
5
as well as two other secondary schools as pilot schools.
6
I believe they were Hume Secondary College and I do
7
believe it was Greensborough would have been the other
8
one where they ran that for the preceding two years prior
9
to 2012, which was an eight week mentoring program in
10
which the Football Players Association ran, that was also
11
partly funded by Woolworths at the time, I believe.
12
I do think that the department also provided some funding
13
for that program.
14
15
MR HILL:
Were you yourself personally involved in any of
these soccer programs?
16
MR G. NAPOLI:
17
MR HILL:
18
At that stage no.
All right.
No.
I think your nephew Matthew Napoli had
quite a career in soccer – not Matthew, Ralph.
19
MR G. NAPOLI:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR G. NAPOLI:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR G. NAPOLI:
26
MR HILL:
27
And
Ralph.
Ralph.
Ralph.
Or Raffaele.
Correct.
That had been a reasonable soccer player.
Yes.
Yes.
Correct.
Were you close with him?
Close-ish, without being super close.
And no doubt you would see him on family
occasions?
28
MR G. NAPOLI:
29
MR HILL:
30
MR G. NAPOLI:
Correct.
Talk about soccer and the like?
As you do.
2260
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR HILL:
Talk about where worked and that?
2
MR G. NAPOLI:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
5
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes.
6
Napoli?
7
MR G. NAPOLI:
8
MR HILL:
9
10
Yes.
12
MR HILL:
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
14
MR HILL:
17
18
19
20
21
I have.
And did you read the evidence of Raffaele
Yes, I did.
So you know what it is that he has said
2004 and effectively 2011?
MR G. NAPOLI:
16
Have you been reading the transcripts here?
regarding whether he worked at a primary school between
11
15
Correct.
Yes, I’m aware of that.
And you know he didn’t work during that time?
Correct.
And you knew during those years that he wasn’t
working at those – at any school?
MR G. NAPOLI:
I had no awareness.
The transcripts that I
have read over recent weeks have been quite a revelation.
MR HILL:
Well, you didn’t think that he working and being
paid by any school during that period, did you?
MR G. NAPOLI:
I do know he worked at Maribyrnong, so I do
know he was being paid there.
22
MR HILL:
From 2011?
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR G. NAPOLI:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
28
MR HILL:
Thereabouts, yes.
Yes.
Yes.
But prior to that I’m talking about?
No.
So if we look at the first invoice that was paid to
29
Four Diegos from John Fawkner, can you tell us how that
30
came about that?
2261
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR G. NAPOLI:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
Yes, I can.
..... - - -
It’s for $6160.
Yes.
I need to probably put a bit of context
4
around the whole work that Four Diegos delivered, if I
5
may.
6
7
8
9
MR HILL:
No, just tell us how this particular task came
about.
MR G. NAPOLI:
It’s as a result of consultancy work to provide
support, direction and development of a program in the
10
school which would eventually be a sports specialist
11
program ..... currently up and running.
12
consultancy work in the development of that program.
13
14
MR HILL:
So it was
Were there any other organisations that tendered or
quoted for this particular task?
15
MR G. NAPOLI:
16
MR HILL:
No.
Was this a task that was – that you had a direct
17
hand in appointing Four Diegos Proprietary Limited to
18
performing?
19
MR G. NAPOLI:
20
MR HILL:
21
22
Yes.
Yes, I did.
Yes, I did.
And how did that come about;
that you had a
direct hand in Four Diegos?
MR G. NAPOLI:
The development of the sports specialist
23
program required a certain skillset.
The skillset there
24
was someone that could develop sports curriculum;
25
develop – undertake professional development with staff
26
in terms of a team of staff that were going to run that
27
program;
28
sports agencies in terms of supporting the program and
29
understanding of how to promote that program .....
30
promotional marketing campaign.
develop links in the community, in particular
So effectively what I’m
2262
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
saying is it required someone that had a particular
2
skillset which you were just not going to find anywhere.
3
When it comes to consultancy work of that nature there
4
it’s about who you know and what you know in order to
5
make an appointment of someone that can deliver in that
6
area.
7
MR HILL:
8
MR G. NAPOLI:
9
10
All right.
The decision I made was I needed someone that I
knew had the skillset that could support the school in
the delivery of that vision.
11
MR HILL:
And you knew Ralph Barba?
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR G. NAPOLI:
15
soccer.
Correct.
You knew he was involved in soccer?
16
MR HILL:
17
MR G. NAPOLI:
18
MR HILL:
19
MR G. NAPOLI:
He was involved in sports development, not just
Yes.
Yes.
What other sports developments was he involved in?
He has done work in the curriculum development
20
with the AFL, Football Federation, Netball Australia.
21
has done also work with the current Asian Cup which was
22
just promoted amongst the primary school.
23
quite a record in terms of developing that type of
24
curriculum.
25
MR HILL:
26
MR G. NAPOLI:
27
MR HILL:
28
MR G. NAPOLI:
He
So he has got
Asian Cup is what sport?
In soccer.
In soccer.
Right.
So he has got quite a record in developing
29
sports curriculum and developing those type of programs.
30
And the view that I took in consultancy work, it’s going
2263
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
to people that you know that basically have got the runs
2
on the board in order to support the school.
3
MR HILL:
Presumably this was a decision that you didn’t make
4
on your own.
5
the school.
6
MR G. NAPOLI:
It was made in consultation with others at
It would have been made in consultation with a
7
working party that I put together, and the school
8
council.
9
10
11
MR HILL:
When you say “would have been”, was it?
MR G. NAPOLI:
I did put together a working party to drive
this vision.
12
MR HILL:
Right.
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
And who was on the working party?
The working party was made up of a number of my
14
staff, a number of leading teachers effectively.
15
then the school council – obviously the school council
16
was kept abreast of decisions that would have been made.
17
18
19
MR HILL:
And
And when you say “this vision”, was that your vision
or the vision of Four Diegos Proprietary Limited?
MR G. NAPOLI:
No, no, that was the vision of John Fawkner
20
College as part of our strategic direction over the last
21
eight years.
22
23
MR HILL:
So did you approach Four Diegos Proprietary Limited
with this idea?
24
MR G. NAPOLI:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR G. NAPOLI:
27
And they quoted on it?
No.
What we – we had come to an agreement that
the work would be undertaken, as was required.
28
MR HILL:
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
Correct.
Right.
So it was not an overall quote.
We didn’t – I
didn’t want to go that way because I wasn’t sure of how
2264
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
4
much work this entailed.
MR HILL:
Presumably they would give you written reports from
time to time.
MR G. NAPOLI:
There would not only be written reports, but
5
the delivery of the work that they were doing meant that
6
there was documentation which needed to be delivered on
7
time, presented to staff so we could work with it.
8
9
10
MR HILL:
Did you inform the teachers on the working party
and/or the school council of your relationship with Ralph
Barba?
11
MR G. NAPOLI:
12
MR HILL:
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
14
MR HILL:
15
MR G. NAPOLI:
16
I would have informed - - -
When you say “you would have”, did you?
On the working party, they all would have known
but - - MR HILL:
18
MR G. NAPOLI:
19
MR HILL:
20
MR G. NAPOLI:
21
MR HILL:
No, no.
No, no.
All knew, all knew - - -
Just stop, just stop.
You’re a school teacher.
Yes.
You know the difference between “would have” and
“did”.
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR G. NAPOLI:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
Yes, I did.
All of them?
17
22
Yes.
Yes, I do.
Did you - - Yes, I did.
- - - inform the working party?
Yes, I did.
And how did you inform them?
They were aware that Ralph had done work in the
school, as I said, as a lead-up to it in terms of the
2265
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
Heroes Program.
2
him.
3
MR HILL:
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR G. NAPOLI:
And they knew I had a relationship with
How did they know?
I told them.
How did – what did you say to them?
Well, that he had been a long term colleague of
7
mine.
8
very good at this work.
9
10
11
12
MR HILL:
That is, that I’ve known for a long time, and he’s
Well, it was a little bit more than just a long term
colleague.
MR G. NAPOLI:
That he was Nino’s brother-in-law is what
you’re referring to?
13
MR HILL:
14
MR G. NAPOLI:
I wouldn’t have mentioned that, no.
15
MR HILL:
You didn’t mention that to the school board?
16
MR G. NAPOLI:
17
MR HILL:
18
Yes.
No.
No.
Now, you’ve told us that you have perhaps in more
recent times seen much more of Nino Napoli.
19
MR G. NAPOLI:
20
MR HILL:
Correct.
And presumably that commenced at a time when it
21
became obvious to him and you and others that, in part,
22
he was a focus of the IBAC investigation.
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
Yes.
25
health.
26
MR G. NAPOLI:
27
MR HILL:
28
That would be partly the reason.
Well, the other part of the reason was his
Correct.
And you’ve told us that there were occasions where
you went to Nino Napoli’s house.
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
MR HILL:
Yes.
And you discussed the matter with Nino and Josie.
2266
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR G. NAPOLI:
2
MR HILL:
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
Correct.
Yes.
Anyone else on those occasions?
I’m not
certain I asked you that before or not.
MR G. NAPOLI:
I couldn’t answer that with any certainty, I’m
sorry.
MR HILL:
Right.
Did Nino indicate on any of those occasions
that he had concerns about what he had done?
MR G. NAPOLI:
There was a few occasions where he did speak to
me about that he was concerned and worried, yes.
MR HILL:
Did he tell you what those concerns and worries
were?
MR G. NAPOLI:
The only ones that do come to mind that I can –
13
I can recollect are the – initially to do with some –
14
some wines.
15
MR HILL:
16
MR G. NAPOLI:
17
Yes.
That the way that that was going to be
perceived.
18
MR HILL:
19
MR G. NAPOLI:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR G. NAPOLI:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR G. NAPOLI:
26
What did he say the problem was?
Yes.
So that was - - -
What sort of wines?
I have no idea.
How much?
I really don’t know.
You didn’t ask any questions?
No, not – not that specifically, no.
It was
just more about, “So what are you concerned about?”
27
MR HILL:
Right.
28
MR G. NAPOLI:
29
MR HILL:
30
MR G. NAPOLI:
In that’s – that some wines had been purchased.
Yes.
Which he felt was all above board, but the
2267
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
perception of it wouldn’t look good, and he was concerned
2
about that.
3
MR HILL:
Anything else?
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
So that was one.
And then he was concerned
5
about the way his two sons, once again, would be
6
perceived in terms of some of the work that they had done
7
at the school – at the schools.
8
about what it might mean for them.
9
10
MR HILL:
That he was concerned
In what sense?
MR G. NAPOLI:
In the sense that – that some of the work that
11
they had done – they had been doing work but it was
12
probably going to be perceived that it wasn’t – a lot of
13
it may not have been – some may not have been legitimate
14
work.
15
MR HILL:
What does – did you ask him what that meant, “some
16
of it may not have been legitimate work”?
17
mean?
18
MR G. NAPOLI:
What does that
He – it was – when I probed into it, it was all
19
about – yes, I did ask and it was more about that it was
20
work in some cases that was still pending, that he needed
21
– they needed to do, and the way that that would be
22
perceived.
23
24
25
MR HILL:
I don’t understand that.
Perhaps you could assist.
What did he say?
MR G. NAPOLI:
I think he – what he was making reference to
26
was that they had been paid for some work that they still
27
hadn’t completed.
28
MR HILL:
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
What, from 2004?
No, I don’t know about the dates.
I didn’t
- - 2268
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR HILL:
2
MR G. NAPOLI:
3
MR HILL:
4
MR G. NAPOLI:
5
MR HILL:
6
MR G. NAPOLI:
7
You don’t know about the dates.
Did you discuss with him what schools?
And I knew that – I think it was Essendon North
was the other one where some work had been done.
MR HILL:
9
MR G. NAPOLI:
Who was the principal at Essendon North?
I didn’t know at the time, but I know now that
– I believe Mick Giulieri was the principal, yes.
11
MR HILL:
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
13
MR HILL:
14
I – I knew that Maribyrnong was one.
Yes.
8
10
Well, I don’t know about the dates.
You didn’t know that at the time.
No.
But you know – did you learn that during your
conversations with Mr Napoli?
15
MR G. NAPOLI:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR G. NAPOLI:
No.
No, I would have learnt that through - - -
Did you know Mick?
I’ve met Mick, yes.
But I know – I know that
18
Mick has moved around schools so I wouldn’t have kept
19
track of which school he might be – he might be at.
20
MR HILL:
But did you know him well?
21
MR G. NAPOLI:
22
MR HILL:
23
MR G. NAPOLI:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR G. NAPOLI:
26
MR HILL:
No, no.
Do you know what sort of a person he was?
He was a character.
Right.
Yes.
And did Nino mention any other concerns he had,
27
other than wine and the fact that his sons had been paid
28
for work that they hadn’t yet done?
29
30
MR G. NAPOLI:
I’ve got to say, not – not – no, nothing that
comes to mind.
2269
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
MR HILL:
Right.
conversations?
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
4
MR HILL:
5
6
Were either of the sons present at these
Not that I can recall.
You didn’t suggest any ways around his concerns or
problems with the sons and the work?
MR G. NAPOLI:
No.
I can only recall one of the conversations
7
was what work was he doing at a primary school when I
8
probed about – what kind of work must he – or could he
9
possibly be doing at a primary school, was when I probed
10
into that. I did ask him, “Well, what would that look
11
like?”
12
MR HILL:
You weren’t present when Nino was in the process
13
with his son Raffaele of making up a story to account for
14
work that had not been done at Mick Giulieri’s school?
15
MR G. NAPOLI:
16
MR HILL:
17
No.
And you didn’t make any suggestions as to how they
might make a false story?
18
MR G. NAPOLI:
Absolutely not.
19
MR HILL:
20
MR G. NAPOLI:
No.
21
MR HILL:
Well, listen to what’s about to be played to
About preschool work?
No.
22
you.
The words will come up on the screen.
23
session 418, clip D.
24
MR O’BRYAN:
25
MR HILL:
26
AUDIO PLAYED
27
MR HILL:
This is
It’s fairly lengthy but - - -
What’s the date?
The date 16 May 2014.
I wonder if we could just pause it there.
28
voices.
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
MR HILL:
Three
Yes.
Yours, Nino Napoli’s and Ralph Napoli.
2270
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR G. NAPOLI:
2
MR HILL:
3
4
5
And there’s no doubt the discussion is about his
being employed or not within the school system.
MR G. NAPOLI:
That would have been over at the Maribyrnong
College.
6
MR HILL:
7
AUDIO PLAYED
8
MR HILL:
9
I think so.
Right.
Let’s just play on.
Can we just stop it there, please.
Mr Napoli, does
this bring back the conversation to your memory?
10
MR G. NAPOLI:
11
MR HILL:
12
MR G. NAPOLI:
13
MR HILL:
14
MR G. NAPOLI:
It’s the one I would have mentioned earlier.
Sorry?
The one I would have mentioned earlier.
Talk into the other microphone.
Sorry.
The one I would have mentioned earlier
15
to you about when he brought up concerns about the work
16
the boys had been doing, yes.
17
18
MR HILL:
Yes.
Napoli participating in.
19
MR G. NAPOLI:
20
MR HILL:
21
MR G. NAPOLI:
22
MR HILL:
23
24
25
The one that you couldn’t remember Ralph
And that is still something I can’t remember.
Yes.
Yes.
The Mick that has just been mentioned by you as a
nice bloke, that’s Mick Giulieri?
MR G. NAPOLI:
I would imagine that would be who I was
referring to, yes.
26
MR HILL:
When you say you “imagine” - - -
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
MR HILL:
That would be who I would be referring to.
It was, wasn’t it>
If it was to do with Essendon North, yes.
And you were talking about 2004?
2271
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR G. NAPOLI:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
4
MR HILL:
5
MR G. NAPOLI:
6
MR HILL:
7
MR G. NAPOLI:
8
MR HILL:
9
Yes.
Was I talking about 2004?
That’s what the conversation - - Okay.
Well, then, I - - -
- - - was directed towards, wasn’t it?
Yes.
- - - must have said that, yes.
And there’s no suggestion, at that time, that
Ralph Napoli was employed at Maribyrnong?
10
MR G. NAPOLI:
11
MR HILL:
12
That’s the date I read on the transcript.
No.
And you knew prior to this conversation that Ralph
had not worked at Essendon North, didn’t you?
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
14
MR HILL:
As I said – correct, yes.
But here you are participating in a conversation
15
that clearly has as its design to try and work up a false
16
story.
17
MR G. NAPOLI:
My understanding of my involvement in that
18
conversation was that I was asked in terms of the work
19
that he was doing at Essendon North and it would have
20
been in regards to trying to get some clarity around what
21
would it have looked like, the work that he was doing
22
there, but I knew no work had been done.
23
MR HILL:
24
MR G. NAPOLI:
25
MR HILL:
26
MR G. NAPOLI:
27
MR HILL:
28
You knew that Ralph had not worked at - - Correct.
- - - Essendon North, yes?
Correct.
You knew he had not worked at Essendon North under
Mick Giulieri.
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
MR HILL:
Correct.
Yet here is a conversation where it’s being mooted
2272
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
how a false story can be put together.
MR G. NAPOLI:
yes.
4
MR HILL:
5
MR G. NAPOLI:
6
MR HILL:
7
MR G. NAPOLI:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR G. NAPOLI:
Yes.
And you’re a participant, aren’t you?
I was there.
You’re a participant in the conversation.
Correct.
You’re saying Mick’s a good bloke, or a nice bloke.
10
MR HILL:
11
MR G. NAPOLI:
12
MR HILL:
13
That’s what would have appeared to be the case,
Correct.
That’s what it says.
That is, he will go along with the false story, yes?
I don’t believe that was ever my intention.
Right.
Let’s listen on then, thank you.
Top of the
next page.
14
AUDIO PLAYED
15
MR HILL:
Can we just pause it there.
There’s a fourth voice
16
that comes on to the recording and that’s Mrs Josie
17
Napoli, yes?
18
MR G. NAPOLI:
19
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes.
That would be correct.
And we’ve just heard you saying:
20
Mick might be able to think, ‘Oh, yeah, I remember
21
that time I was running the after-school program, I
22
was running this, I was running that.’
23
We’ve just heard you say that, haven’t we?
24
MR G. NAPOLI:
25
MR HILL:
26
Correct.
And what was happening prior to that was Ralph
didn’t really want to be part of this, did he?
27
MR G. NAPOLI:
28
MR HILL:
29
MR G. NAPOLI:
30
MR HILL:
Absolutely, yes.
He didn’t?
Yes.
He didn’t.
But his father is insisting - - 2273
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
MR G. NAPOLI:
2
MR HILL:
3
MR G. NAPOLI:
4
MR HILL:
Yes.
- - - to get him out of the problems that he was in?
Correct.
And you’re making suggestions how Ralph could go
5
along with this suggestion of putting forward a false
6
story, aren’t you?
7
MR G. NAPOLI:
8
MR HILL:
9
MR G. NAPOLI:
10
11
12
That’s not what my intent was there.
That’s - - Yes.
I see what you’re saying, but that’s not
what my intent was.
MR HILL:
It’s not only a question of seeing it, you can hear
you saying it, can’t you?
13
MR G. NAPOLI:
14
MR HILL:
15
AUDIO PLAYED
16
MR HILL:
Yes.
Yes?
Yes.
If we could continue on, please.
If we just pause it there.
Mr Napoli, not once
17
during that conversation do you suggest to Nino that it
18
would be better for him to simply tell the truth.
19
20
21
MR G. NAPOLI:
During that particular conversation it doesn’t
come out, no.
MR HILL:
No.
Not once during that conversation that we’ve
22
heard do you suggest to Ralph Napoli that you’re
23
supporting him and that he shouldn’t go along with this
24
false story.
25
MR G. NAPOLI:
26
MR HILL:
Not in that particular conversation, no.
And we can quite clearly hear you on a number of
27
separate occasions encouraging a false story to be told
28
to the authorities.
29
30
MR G. NAPOLI:
I, once again, want to go back to what I said
before, if I may, and that was that one of the
2274
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
conversations, as I alluded to prior to hearing this, was
2
that Nino asked me – he was concerned about some of the
3
work that Ralph had been – or the boys had been doing,
4
and that it was work that still hadn’t been completed and
5
what would that look like.
6
conversation.
7
MR HILL:
8
question that I asked of you?
9
MR NAPOLI:
10
MR HILL:
That was the nature of that
Now, perhaps you would be kind enough to answer the
Which was?
If you could repeat it please?
You, in the conversation that we have just heard,
11
can clearly be heard encouraging a false account to be
12
given to the authorities.
13
MR NAPOLI:
14
MR HILL:
That would be correct.
I tender, Commissioner, the – and I – from line 298
15
to line 575, inclusive of the transcript and the audio
16
recording.
17
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, just going back, you also mentioned earlier
18
just to get the numbers right in sequence on the
19
transcript, Mr Hill, I have got a note of book 22, page
20
5.
21
MR HILL:
22
3.
23
MR O’BRYAN:
24
MR HILL:
25
MR O’BRYAN:
26
MR HILL:
27
MR O’BRYAN:
28
Yes.
So from book 22 it’s pages, I think 1, 2 and
1 to 3, yes.
Then 5.
Yes.
And then the audio and the transcript.
Well, then just pausing there, book 22, pages 1
to 3 and 5 will be parked exhibit 184.
29
EXHIBIT #184 PAGES 1,2,3 AND 5 OF BOOK 22
30
MR O’BRYAN:
The recording 418, clip D on 16 May 2014, lines
2275
UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
2
3
4
298 to 575 and transcript, exhibit 185.
EXHIBIT #185 RECORDING 418 CLIP D, LINES 298 TO 575 AND
TRANSCRIPT DATED 16/05/2014
MR O’BRYAN:
And I think a couple of things that say “unclear”
5
are quite obvious.
6
think Mr Napoli is saying “Are you comfortable with
7
that?”
8
9
10
MR HILL:
I would suggest this, at line
335, I
Can we look at 335?
Yes.
“And I found the money.
Are you comfortable
with that?”
MR O’BRYAN:
I think it’s pretty clear that it’s “story”, but
11
you could listen back over that and see what you think.
12
And then 386, which was part of the tender, “ ..... the
13
school, effing school.
14
school owes me.”
15
MR HILL:
16
MR O’BRYAN:
17
MR HILL:
18
19
20
21
22
23
I think it’s fairly clear “effing
But you could check that.
We’re confident that it is ‘story’.
Yes.
And the witness picks that word up himself at line
477.
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, that’s right.
It pops up again a few times
I think.
MR HILL:
“The story Mick might be able to think, yes, I
remember the time .....”
MR O’BRYAN:
There was something towards the end like
24
‘brilliant story’ or something I think from Mr Nino
25
Napoli, but not to worry.
26
exhibits.
27
28
29
30
MR HILL:
Well, then, there are the
I should also tender the John Fawkner Secondary
College graphic.
MR O’BRYAN:
Well, the graphic shown earlier, that can be
exhibit 186.
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
EXHIBIT #186 JOHN FAWKNER SECONDARY COLLEGE GRAPHIC
2
MR HILL:
And whilst I’m tendering documents, Commissioner, we
3
neglected in the examination of the previous witness to
4
tender page 773 of court book 2.
5
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes, yes, I missed that too.
That couldn’t be
6
added to an exhibit during that examination, could it, Ms
7
Harris?
8
MR HILL:
9
MR O’BRYAN:
I’m not sure that it fits anything.
It’s on its own.
It’s on its own.
Well, then we will make it – we
10
will make it exhibit 182A.
11
sequence.
I would just like to keep the
12
EXHIBIT #182A PAGE 773 OF COURT BOOK 2
13
MR HILL:
14
Yes.
No, we understand.
And we don’t have any
further questions at this time for this witness.
15
MR O’BRYAN:
16
MR HILL:
17
MR O’BRYAN:
Yes.
But he may be recalled.
Yes.
Well, Mr Loxley, there’s that possibility
18
of needing your client back, and there’s also the
19
possibility of cross-examination and leave being given,
20
and you have probably been reading transcripts, have you?
21
MR LOXLEY:
22
MR O’BRYAN:
I have, Commissioner.
So I won’t go through the whole usual speech
23
about that.
24
the moment?
25
MR LOXLEY:
26
MR O’BRYAN:
Are you happy to reserve your position at
I am, Commissioner.
Yes, thank you.
And then all I would ask you in
27
the usual way is if you wouldn’t mind within the next
28
couple of weeks say letting at least the solicitor
29
assisting the Commission know if you would have any
30
questions if your client were not otherwise being called
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UNCLASSIFIEDIBAC
M.G. STECHER
1
back because we will assume if we don’t hear you wouldn’t
2
on that basis.
3
MR LOXLEY:
4
MR O’BRYAN:
We will do that, Commissioner.
Thank you very much.
Yes.
Mr Napoli, your examination
5
may need to be continued at a later date, and is
6
therefore adjourned to a date and time to be fixed.
7
remain bound by the summons and confidentiality notice,
8
and you may be recalled at any time during the course of
9
this investigation to give further evidence.
You
You will be
10
advised in writing through your legal representatives if
11
that is to occur, and of the date and time.
12
also be advised in writing when you are no longer
13
required.
14
And you will
The time now is 4.07 pm, so please stop the
15
recording.
And the examination at this point is
16
concluded.
Mr Napoli, you are free to leave the witness
17
box, thank you.
18
Mr Loxley, thank you.
19
THE WITNESS WITHDREW
20
MR O’BRYAN:
21
MR HILL:
23
MR O’BRYAN:
25
[4.06 pm]
Is that – does that conclude today’s
examinations, Mr Hill?
22
24
And you’re free to leave the bar table,
It does.
It does, Commissioner.
All right then.
Well, we will adjourn until 10
am in the morning.
MATTER ADJOURNED at 4.06 pm UNTIL TUESDAY, 26 MAY 2015
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M.G. STECHER