UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
Interview #1260
Brown, Sandy
Brown, Sandy (1962-Present)
Former Door County PFLAG President, Retired Teacher, Wisconsin League of Women Voters
Member,
At Sturgeon Bay: 1986 to Present
Interviewed: 2012 (1 session)
Interviewer: Jackie Bolduan
Index by: Sarah Neddo
Length:
Series:
72 minutes (total)
Appleton’s LGBT Community, 1960s to Present
Abstract: In her 2012 interview with Jackie Bolduan, Sandy Brown shares her experience in the army and in the Door County area. She talks about her time in the army during college and the group of friends she made. She also talks about moving to Door County and starting a PFLAG Chapter. She goes on to describe the different forms of activism she has partaken in from putting on ins-services to writing letters to the editor. She describes a hate crime incident that involved two gay men who owned Chanticleer. She discusses the following topics: Being gay in the Army, LGBTQ role models in the 70s, Ellen’s coming out, PFLAG of Door
County, work she did with the AIDS Task Force, and the 2006 Wisconsin
Marriage Amendment.
Key Words: Wisconsin, LGBT, LGBTQ, Gay, Transgender, Trans, Genderqueer,
Pivot Bar, Sturgeon Bay Wisconsin, Little Rock Arkansas, Rolla Missouri,
Columbia Missouri, lesbian army, DSM homosexuality, The Children’s Hour,
Lilliana Hellmann, Audrey Hepburn, Shirley MacLaine, GI Bill, Bill Clinton,
Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, Harvey Milk, Stonewall, PFLAG, PFLAG Door County,
Ellen, Obama same-sex marriage, NAACP same-sex marriage, Wisconsin protection of sexual orientation, lesbian mothers, Community Programs, Sodom and Gomorrah, suicide, HOPE UCC, Will and Grace, Wellness Center, Open and
Affirming, Curve Magazine, LGBTQ Parenting, JB Van Hollen, 2006 Marriage
Amendment Law, Wisconsin League of Women Voters, AIDS Task Force , Hate
Crime, Rural, Coming Out,
Interview Session 1 (June 7, 2012): Digital File
Time Keywords
00:00:00 Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction .

00:00:05 Question: Where did you grow-up and what was it like? Answer: Brown grew-up in
Rolla, Missouri and went to college in Columbia Missouri where she joined the army for two years and was commissioned as a Lieutenant after college.
00:00:55 Question: What was it like in Missouri (as a lesbian)? Answer: Brown recalls going to a counselor a couple of years before she graduated college in ’69 and he told her that she did not want to be a lesbian. She talks about how the DSM manual still included homosexuality as a mental illness. She goes on to talk about how the only role models was in the movie The Children’s Hour written by Lilliana Hellman starring
Audrey Hepburn and Shirley MacLaine.
00:02:40 Question: What was the army like? Answer: Brown joined the army her junior year of college and she says out of her “core group of friends probably all but one or two were gay.” She remembers one partner of a couple that was out while the other partner “did not think she was gay.”
00:04:59 Question: What were the attitudes like in the military? Answer: Brown says there was an attitude that was verbally expressed within the military that enrolled women were gay. She also explains that a person could get discharged “by saying they were gay.”
She recalls having to investigate some privates who were accused of being gay.
00:08:15 Question: What was the system around interrogating people in the army? Answer:
Brown talks about how letters that had been found were used, but can’t remember what else and if she was on the side of investigating or advising the accused. She does remember that there was never a hearing.
00:09:45 Question: What did you do when you got out of the army? Answer: Brown talks about going back to school on the GI Bill and getting her Masters Degree in Special
Education.
00:11:40 Question: What was your work like? Answer: Brown says that nothing was ever talked about on LGBTQ issues while she was going to school. She talks about how the first “open discussions” she was aware of stemmed from Bill Clinton’s Don’t Ask
Don’t Tell (DADT) policy. She also mentions her first relationship with a women, and how she “still didn’t call myself a lesbian, because that was a bad word.” She doesn’t recall hearing anything about Harvey Milk’s death or Stonewall “until years later.”
00:15:05 [no question] Brown talks about how her and her partner visited some of her old army friends in Atlanta and they went out to a gay bar. She describes this as “the first gathering” that her group of friends were out to each other. Follow-Up: Why do you think that even within your group of friends people weren’t out?
Answer: Brown says that many of them were not out to themselves at the time, so “there was nothing to talk about.” She does say there was one friend in the group who “was acknowledging” that she was a lesbian and her friends were ok with that.

00:18:14 Question How do the spaces here compare to where you were? Answer: Brown talks about how when she lived in Wisconsin there was no community. She says that the barn dances around the area are “very friendly” but overall “the whole community is very closeted still.” Brown talks about her leadership in the local PFLAG since’95.
She talks about funding and the fourth of July Parade in Bailey’s Harbor.
00:23:00 [no question] Brown talks about how Door County votes conservatively, but there is a big art scene.
00:23:26 Question: How did you become an activist? Answer: Brown said that she became an activist in the early ‘80s “for disability rights” and recounts going to Madison to file a civil rights complaint to get equal time for kids at middle school who got released earlier, because they needed extra supervision at lunch. When Brown moved to Door
County she recalls meeting with LGBTQ organizations in the Fox Valley area and decided to start a PFLAG group in Door County. In ’95 Brown started filling out the
“the formal paperwork.” She talks about the evolution of the group and mentions how some of their members work with local schools to coordinate trainings.
00:27:05 Question: How has the community here received PFLAG? Answer: Brown talks about how she continuously tried to put information in the paper about PFLAG and the paper would stall putting the information in. Today the PFLAG group did have their picture in the paper, which Brown sees as a sign of improvement.
00:30:05 Question: How do you see sexism play out in the LGBTQ community? Answer:
Brown talks about how the bar scene was big in the gay men’s community, while women are more likely to have a potluck or a party. She also mentions how there is not another lesbian attending PFLAG.
00:32:20 Question: How do you think the media overtime has portrayed lesbian women? What was Ellen’s coming out like in the community? Answer: Brown describes Ellen’s coming out as comparable to Obama coming out for same-sex marriage. She says that she had taped the episode when Ellen came out and passed it around to other people.
The PFLAG chapter she started kicked off with an Ellen coming out party. She goes to talk about Ellen’s demise on TV and the NAACP’s recent announcement of support for same-sex marriage. She also talks about the coverage of sexual orientation in Wisconsin’s employment protection law, but remembers two counselors at Community Programs who were homophobic. Brown sat-down with her boss to express her concern of the two counselor’s homophobia, did in-services, and documented everything. She goes on to talk about homosexuality in the DSM.
00:38:53 Question: How has the community change over time towards LGBTQ issues?
Answer: Brown talks about being careful about how out her and her partner was when she moved back to Wisconsin in ’91 with her and her partner’s three kids in high school. After the kids graduated high school they felt more comfortable being more out.

00:40:55 [no question] Brown recalls a time when a community member wrote a long editorial about “Sodom and Gomorrah and the sin of homosexuality.” She says that no one else countered his editorial.
00:41:31 [no question] Brown talks about a hate crime that occurred with the gay owners of
The Chanticleer. She says that the two did not start the fight, but had injured the person who did. Brown said she wrote a letter to the editor because there was a lot other negative letter to the editors surrounding the incident. She remembers getting an angry phone call from a relative of the guy who was injured after her letter was published.
00:43:45 [no question] Brown talks about the high alcohol and suicide rate, specifically in
Sevastopol, which was covered by the local paper. She wrote a letter in response because the paper did not mention anything about how the LGBTQ community is disproportionately affected. Follow-Up: When were these suicides? Answer: Brown believes they took place around the 2000s.
00:46:05 Question: When was the bar incident? Answer: She says it was around ’06.
00:46:35 Question: Where there other incidents in this community before? Answer: Brown doesn’t remember anything being reported. She talks about how with the recent suicides she was on committees and would constantly bring-up how does this affect
LGBTQ people? The response she got was mostly negative and she remembers one minister that say, “We don’t have to worry about that because Will and Grace is on
TV.”
00:47:43 Question: What is the religious community like here? Answer: Brown belongs to
HOPE UCC, which she describes as a more liberal church. She recalls back in the
‘90s when the AIDS Task Force tried to put on a event for local religious leaders and the UCC minister was the only one to attend. She does say that the local Methodist church is interested in becoming LGBTQ friendly. She goes on to talk about an incident at the local Wisconsin Synod Lutheran church (WELS) where a young man approached the Reverend and after coming out he killed himself.
00:50:37 Question: What was this community’s response to HIV/AIDS? Answer: Brown served on the AIDS Task Force in ’92. She describes the community, “as being slow to warm-up.” She talks about how Marc Johnson and his wife spoke to the community.
00:52:48 Question: Is there any backlash when doing education in the schools? Answer: Brown says that schools have to allow for opting out of educational programs. She also mentions how PFLAG tries to encourage high school students to create a Gay
Straight Alliance, but none have been created. Follow-Up: Do you think that will change? Answer: Brown talks about how some students formed a diversity club. She mentions how one of the counselors that attended a PFLAG meeting told the school district that he could contact Lambda Legal if they did not allow for a GSA.

00:56:04 Question: Do you see a trans presence? Answer: Brown talks about a Methodist minister’s “son” (MTF) who is transitioning and has talked to the congregation and attended PFLAG. Brown talks about The Wellness Center on Fifth Avenue, which has always been working to be inclusive and how they have got necessary certifications to prescribe drugs and they have a counselor who is LGBT friendly. She also mentions a couple who got married and one of the partner is a FTM. Brown talks about how PFLAG was the first LGBT organization to say that they would not accept
LGBT legislation that did not include gender identity rights.
01:00:05 Question: How is the trans woman received in the community? Answer: Brown says the woman was a substitute teacher, but last May she wrote a letter coming out to the principal and he said, “they didn’t need her anymore.” She says that the Methodist church is very supportive.
01:01:53 [no question] Brown talks about how when her church became open and affirming some people had left the church. Follow-Up: Has there been any growth in you church on LGBTQ issues? Answer: Brown talks about how last year a rainbow sticker was put-up on the UCC sign. She goes on to talk the increase in LGB couples that attend the UCC church.
01:05:44 Question: Do you think it’s easier for gay men to be out rather than lesbian women to be out? Answer: Brown says that Chanticleer and Trio have gay owners that are pretty out, but the businesses owned by lesbians are not as far out. Follow-Up: What kind of places are these businesses? Answer: Brown says that Chanticleer is a bed and breakfast, and Trio is a restaurant. Brown recalls a time when a person from Curve
Magazine wanted to interview a lesbian owned business, but Brown could not find anyone to interview.
01:08:17 Question: You mentioned earlier that you had adopted a son. What was that process like? Answer: Brown talks about how she was not in a relationship at the time and does not remember anyone asking her about her sexual orientation.
01:11:05 Question: Do you think it would be different if you had tried to adopt with a partner?
Answer: Brown believes it would be very difficult for gay couples to adopt and mentions how it is still not legal.
01:11:58 Question: Have there been any initiatives in this area with domestic partnership legislation? Answer: Brown mentions how Wisconsin has domestic partnerships, but it is not substantial to marriage. She mentions how the present District Attorney (JB
Van Hollen) will not defend the domestic partnership law. She goes on to talk about the ’06 Marriage Amendment and how PFLAG started a stand at The Market Square on Saturdays in the summer. She describes the passage of the amendment as
“heartbreaking and a big slap in the face.” She also mentions how she is a part of the
Wisconsin League of Women Voters.

01:15:26 Question: Can you talk about your experience in the Wisconsin League of Women
Voters? Answer: Brown talks about how The League is supportive of LGBT people.
00:16:55 Question: What do you see as the biggest challenge going forward in the LGBTQ
Civil Rights Movement? Answer: Brown says that getting GSAs in the school would be a big step towards tolerance. She also mentions how the local attitude is “Don’t
Ask Don’t Tell.” She also talks about the suicides in the area as being related to
LGBTQ bullying and says that the PFLAG has about a 200 person mailing list.
01:21:14 Question: What grade or level school did you teach? Answer: Brown says started out as an LD teacher in Aschwaubenon, then moved up to Door County to teach early childhood education, then moved to Antigo to adopt her son, later moved to Madison, and then moved backed to Sturgeon Bay.
01:23:43 Question: What has kept you going in your activism? Answer: Brown talks about how “other things” have kept her here and so she has continued to fight. She mentions how she has talked with all of her legislatures.
01:24:45 Question: Do you think in this community you will see any of the changes you want to see? Answer: Brown isn’t sure she will the big crowd at the Fourth of July Parade.
She talks about how the community is usually two-steps behind and the global community is still far behind.