THE HON MARK DREYFUS QC MP
SHADOW ATTORNEY-GENERAL
SHADOW MINISTER FOR THE ARTS
MEMBER FOR ISAACS
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
RADIO NATIONAL – BOOKS AND ARTS
MONDAY, 18 MAY 2015
SUBJECT/S: Arts funding; Funding cut to Australia Council; Section 18C of
Racial Discrimination Act
MICHAEL CATHCART: So what's your take on these cuts to the Australia Council ?
MARK DREYFUS: We are very concerned, Michael, about this $110 million cut from
the Australia Council; $104 million of which is going to go, as you have just
accurately described it as a ministerial fund, to be run out of the ministry to provide
an alternative source of funding for the arts.
It seems to us to be needless duplication, a compromising of the independence of
arts funding and a complete retrograde step because the whole trend of funding in
the arts has been towards greater independence and peer review. That's where the
Australia Council was. You'd think the Minister understood that because last year he
participated in the launch of the strategic plan - the new strategic plan of the
Australia Council. That has now been thrown up in the air, I would have to say.
There is a very guarded statement from the Australia Council I saw about what the
implications of this are for them. They are not really in a position to come out and
criticise the Minister. But when they say that are giving... this is their press
release....they are giving careful consideration to how these changes will impact on
our ability to deliver on the Australia Council strategic plan you know there is trouble
afoot.
CATHCART: Well we know if we are listening behind the scenes, we know they are
not happy. We don't need to read the press release. But let's look at the other way of
looking at it. The arts community often say - "Oh so and so is the minister for the
arts. He has just been given that, he doesn't really care about the arts." Here at last
there is an arts minister who cares so much about the arts that he wants to have the
arts within his own purview. He wants to control it personally. Isn't that a sign of a
minister who is deeply committed to the arts ?
DREYFUS: It means a complete abandonment of independence and an
unnecessary duplication. The Australia Council is now going to spend quite a deal of
its time advising artists and arts bodies on how to apply for funding from the Minister.
That's not what we want. We don't want duplication. We have got a perfectly
acceptable, a good system which offers independence, offers peer review right now
with the Australia Council. We don't know what criteria Senator Brandis is going to
apply because he hasn't said. Disturbingly, we read in the weekend press that
ministerial staff are to determine applications. They are his staff. That's the staff in
his office. We are left in the dark as to what he intends by this $104 million taken
from the Australia Council and put into his own ministry.
CATHCART: Well, we are hoping he will come onto the show tomorrow and clarify
all this because I suppose one way of doing it is that the Minister could simply review
people who got knocked back by the Australia Council. So you could say the
Australia Council is the first port of call, if you get knocked back, you get a second go
at it, the Minister will review you. But if, from day one, you have to fill out two
application forms - one for the Australia Council, one for the Ministry, it is going to
make the bureaucracy fairly onerous I guess.
DREYFUS: That's right. We just don't know because beyond making a fairly
pejorative statement about the Australia Council in his press release announcing this
national program for excellence in the arts we have no idea what criteria George
Brandis has in mind.
CATHCART: Well the implication is, certainly, that the Australia Council is not doing
its job, so he says the purpose of the national program for excellence in the arts program I note spelt with a "MME", rather old fashioned way to do it, the purpose for
the national program for excellence in the arts is to expand funding to artists and arts
organisations who are presently unable to secure funding through the Australia
Council. So the implication is at some level the Australia Council is not doing its job.
DREYFUS: Well that is news to me. The Australia Council funds an extraordinarily
wide range of arts organisations and artists. I would want the Minister to identify what
bit of the arts community - which artists, which organisations - he says are not
getting funding and should be getting funding.
CATHCART: Now, as I understand it there are two grounds for objecting to this, at
least two major grounds. that are emerging in the public debate. One is the one you
have just put, which is the duplication of those two agencies. The other is concern of
the Minister having such control over arts funding because this arms length principle
- that is the Minister does not decide cannot decide, must not decide how money is
allocated to specific artists and projects. That's been a kind of sacred principle in arts
funding since the Australia Council was set up. But George Brandis is a great
champion of freedom of expression and that is why he wanted to delete provisions
from the Racial Discrimination Act which made it an offence to be hurtful, make
bigoted racist comments about people. He has gone right to the wire on freedom of
expression. He takes a fairly militant position on this.
DREYFUS: Well, we saw in 18C what he said about that - people had a right to be
bigots. That's George Brandis' position and he ignored entirely in the section 18C
debate that we have protections of artistic freedom, we have protections of free
speech in the law already which Senator Brandis always used to gloss over. Happily,
he has abandoned his attack on section 18C, which is a protection of racial
vilification that served Australia well for more than 20 years now and I hope we will
hear no more about it. However, I don't think he should be presented as some
champion of free speech. If we think back to what he said about the Sydney Festival,
for example. If we think back to some other comments he has made. I think he is
pretty selective in which speech he favours just like, I am assuming, he is going to be
pretty selective in which programs or artists he is going to want to spend government
money on.
CATHCART: Well, let's talk about that event around the Sydney Biennale last year.
So you will remember listeners that certain artists said they wanted to boycott the
Sydney Biennale. There were various moves against the Biennale because it had
received money from Transfield, a company that was connected to another company
which had an interest in Australia's offshore detention centres. They said they
couldn't accept money, shouldn't accept money from that the source. And the
Minister was very angry about this and so were other Liberal ministers. They thought
it was very ungracious. Ingratitude was one word that was bandied around. So the
Minister then directed the Australia Council that it should come up with a policy
under which artists that refused to take money on ethical grounds - because they did
not approve of the way the money had been earnt - could not then receive Australia
Council money. If you said, “I won't take money from Peter, I won't be paid by Paul
either I guess”. I don't know whether we ever saw those provisions. Did the Australia
Council defy a direction from its Minister ?
DREYFUS: Well you'll have to ask the Minister about that. He has got quite a few
questions to answer but that is one of them. With Sydney, we saw there the
selectivity that George Brandis is prepared to apply. He is certainly not some
champion of free speech, certainly does not think that artists are entitled to their own
opinions.
CATHCART: Well was the Minister in a position to direct the Australia Council to
draw up provisions,draw up guidelines which explained to artists that you have to
accept private funding - you can't be picky and choosy about private funding if you
are going to be subsidised by the state as well ?
DREYFUS: Well he certainly seems to have thought he was and it reminds me of
Senator Brandis' own attempt from opposition to amend the Australia Council
legislation to insert powers of ministerial direction which happily failed. This is at a
time when we were embarked upon a reorganisation of the Australia Council. Those
amendments failed but Senator Brandis is now going down another path to achieve
the same end, which is - he directs. He is, it appears, going to be the supremo of the
arts in Australia, and I don't think that's what we want. I don't think that's what should
be the situation for arts funding in Australia. I think we need a system of arts funding
that is independent, that is peer reviewed, that has clear published criteria so people
know where they stand.
CATHCART: Well hopefully we can get a response from the Minister tomorrow.
Mark Dreyfus thanks for coming in.
MONDAY, 18 MAY 2015