From an online conversation on theologyweb.com
1. Did the Reformation start the decline of Christianity's influence?
An interesting point was brought up here:
Voice 1: The decline of Christianity's influence is the problem but that started before (and would have
continued without) Darwinian evolution. I would even venture to say that it can be traced back to
*gasp* the Reformation. But that is the topic of another thread entirely.
I would venture to say that it began long before that, when church offices began to be bought and sold.
The Reformation (and Counter-Reformation), if anything, helped to renew Christianity's influence
even as it weakened its political clout.
Re: Did the Reformation start the decline of Christianity's influence?
At the time just before the Reformation there were some abuses going on like the selling of
indulgences and such. But all of those could have been fixed through internal reforms, and they all
were fixed this way during the Counter-reformation.
The Protestant Reformation started the decline of Christianity because it denied the existence of
objective religious truth, or at least a way of finding it.
According to Luther, every man was his own clergy. Biblical interpretation now fell to the
individual and no one had any more authority than the next guy. How could there ever be unity
with that kind of thinking?
The Catholic Church has the authority to interpret Scripture given to it when Jesus gave the keys of
the Kingdom to St. Peter, our first Pope (at the time called Bishop of Rome). With the
Magestarium of the Church interpreting Scripture Christianity was unified for 1,500 years. All
Christians recognised that once the Church spoke on something that it was the one and only
authority on Scriptural issues.
But if everyone can be their own Magestarium then everyone will interpret the Bible as they
please. Christianity then became a tool of the state in Europe and was twisted and abused in every
way imaginable with now thousands of Protestant sects running around all spouting their own
"true" view of Christianity. The idea of objective religious truth was now replaced with personal
subjective views based on the individual's opinion about the Bible. This of course would lead to
religious (and later moral) relativism and an inconsistent Protestant theology easily picked apart by
liberal intellectuals in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Christendom was shattered by Luther’s revolt against objective religious truth.
Voice 2: This shows, inter alia, that you know nothing about Luther.
Voice 1: Am I wrong that he denied the Church's authority for interpreting Scripture or did he
never say that every man is his own priest?
From an online conversation on theologyweb.com
I know that Luther's intent was not to destroy objectivity in the search for religious truth. But the
end result of any reasoning that denies the Church's Authority is the same.
Voice 3: THE REFORMATION STARTED THE RESTORATION OF TRUE CHRISTIANITY!!!
The Religion of Roman Catholicism did not exist until 270 A.D. and did not become
an official religion until 312 A.D. - contrary to the false history taught by Romanism.
Christ established HIS Church - the church of God - the body of Christ (Matt. 16:18,
Eph. 2:20), not Roman Catholicism. Romanism was the result of the "falling away"
or the "apostasy" and it is a false cult that came out of the church of God - the
body of Christ.
The Reformation is a good start on all Christians getting back to the purity of the
Apostolic chuch of God - the body of Christ.
If Roman Catholicism ever truly returns to the Bible standard - it will cease to be
Roman Catholic - and will have returned to its roots - the church of God, the body
of Christ. Amen.
Voice 2: Am I wrong that he denied the Church's authority for interpreting Scripture or did he never
say that every man is his own priest?
I know that Luther's intent was not to destroy objectivity in the search for religious truth. But the
end result of any reasoning that denies the Church's Authority is the same.
What have you actually read of Luther's?
Shalom,
George
Voice 1: The Religion of Roman Catholicism did not exist until 270 A.D. and did not become an
official religion until 312 A.D. - contrary to the false history taught by Romanism.
Roman Catholicism started with the 12 Apostles.
At the time just before the Reformation there were some abuses going on like the selling of
indulgences and such. But all of those could have been fixed through internal reforms, and they all
were fixed this way during the Counter-reformation.
Voice 4: Indulgences are still an official part of Roman Church law.
The Protestant Reformation started the decline of Christianity because it denied the existence of
objective religious truth, or at least a way of finding it.
The decline of Western Christianity began a long time before that. It began when the Frankish
Carolingian dynasty decided they wanted to be Holy Roman Emporers, and used the papacy as
From an online conversation on theologyweb.com
their puppet to get the filioque inserted into the Creed and to try to assert papal authority over
the East - leading to the East-West schism.
According to Luther, every man was his own clergy. Biblical interpretation now fell to the
individual and no one had any more authority than the next guy. How could there ever be
unity with that kind of thinking?
There won't be. The Roman church, on the other hand, may be unified, but is uniform error anything
to brag about?
The Catholic Church has the authority to interpret Scripture given to it when Jesus gave the keys of
the Kingdom to St. Peter, our first Pope (at the time called Bishop of Rome).
Interesting. So why is the Patriarch of Antioch not the ruler of Christendom? After all, St Peter was
the first bishop of Antioch, and he was bishop of Antioch before he was bishop of Rome.
With the Magestarium of the Church interpreting Scripture Christianity was unified for 1,500 years.
Ahem. Unified? Aren't you forgetting the Assyrians? The Monophysites? The Eastern Orthodox? I'd
wager that the split of 1054 was a bigger split (percentage-wise) than the Reformation was.
All Christians recognized that once the Church spoke on something that it was the one and only
authority on Scriptural issues.
The problem was that it was not an authority that the Roman Church actually possessed.
But if everyone can be their own Magestarium then everyone will interpret the Bible as they please.
Christianity then became a tool of the state in Europe and was twisted and abused in everyway
imaginable with now thousands of Protestant sects running around all spouting their own "true"
view of Christianity. The idea of objective religious truth was now replaced with personal
subjective views based on the individual's opinion about the Bible. This of course would lead to
religious (and later moral) relativism and an inconsistent Protestant theology easily picked apart
by liberal intellectuals in the 18th and 19th centuries.
You won't get an argument from me there. But having the authority of Biblical interpretation
vested in the hands of a privileged minority isn't any better. Instead of individualism it leads to
authoritarianism and the sorts of doctrinal innovations and abuses such as those that led to the
Reformation. Biblical interpretation properly belongs to the whole Church - not to individuals,
and not to a privileged elite.
It's all very well for you to come in here and polemically point fingers at Luther and the
Protestants. But if it weren't for the prior excesses of the papacy in the Roman Church, it never
would have come to that in the first place. Christendom would still be largely undivided today.
Christendom was shattered by Luthers revolt against objective religious truth.
Christendom was shattered by power hungry popes about 5 centuries before Luther was even born.
If the popes at the turn of the first millenium hadn't been so power-hungry, then there would
have been no need for a reformation.
From an online conversation on theologyweb.com