Aviation Working Team Meeting
October 18, 2005
9:00 AM – 2:00 PM PST
Agenda
Topic
Presenter
Time
Review minutes from last meeting
All
0:15
Aviation Frequency Management
All
0:30
National Interagency Aviation Council Update
Jim
0:30
Aviation Training for 2006
Clay
0:30
Medivac Lessons Learned
Clay
0:30
All
0:15
Clay
0:05
All
0:30
Geographic Additional Aviation Resources
Policy Matrix
Agency Updates
Attendees: Clay Hillin (Chair NPS), Jim Ziobro (Vice-Chair ODF), Jon Rollens (USFS), Gary
Sterling (USFS), Greg Loper (BLM), Ted Stevens (BIA), Eric Hagen (FWS), Bill Lafferty (ODF).
Minutes Review. Here is and update to the minutes from our last meeting
 There were no issues related to leadplane use with non-authorized airtankers. This was a
change from the previous year where leadplanes were prohibited from
leading/coordinating with non-authorized airtankers.
 The BLM/BIA contracted CL-215 didn’t come to the Pacific Northwest this season. They
remained in Alaska up to the time they were transferred back to the Northeast.
 Considerable discussion was paid to the new HELM mnemonic for Helicopter Manager.
The process by which these changes are made is convoluted and the AWT is concerned
about this as it relates to other changes we will see in the future.
Additional Topics
Aircraft Interagency Incident response:
This past summer there was an incident that had Interagency implications (FS SEAT base on a
FS contract through AMD working for the County and State) that pointed to a need to resolve
these issues at the Aviation Working Team level. Near Pendleton a fire on county land protected
by WADNR required the use of the SEAT from Pendleton. This aircraft is on an exclusive use
contract for the Forest Service administered by the DOI. The pilot had a problem with the landing
which put the aircraft out of commission for awhile and the FS went to investigate this incident.
Gary Sterling the R-6 Regional Aviation Safety Manager did the investigation on the incident.
NTSB was notified and didn’t consider it an accident. The Unit had things pretty well together, but
was unable to get a hold of WADNR. A report was completed on the incident. When Dave Doan
was finally contacted it was noted that he had not been contacted regarding the incident even
though his agency was in operational control of the aircraft. Dave Doan concluded that WADNR
didn’t have to do anything further in either the investigation or reporting. Gary’s report went to
Dave without any recommendations, but WADNR later requested them. As a result we in the
AWT see a clear need to work out a protocol and process for future incidents of this nature. AMD
didn’t take the steps necessary in this incident as far as the agency clearing the pilot to fly again,
because the next day after this incident the pilot reported to fly another aircraft on a different
contract. This one was a Forest Service contract flying ATGS missions. When he showed up for
ATGS contract the pilot was interviewed and assessed the pilot’s attitude toward flying and
decided that he was okay to fly In this sense the USFS did what they determined was necessary
to clear the pilot to fly the ATGS mission.
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Recommendation for Notification – It is proposed to have the aircraft desk at NWCC
call everyone in the list of AWT members when they are notified of an aircraft incident
with potential or accident. The FS RASTM will determine which agency has the lead,
i.e. who’s incident/accident is it, for the investigation. We will also advise all PNW Units
to include NWCC in the Unit’s contact list for notification of Agency Aviation Managers.
The Chair will take this recommendation to the PNWCG Steering Committee.
Aviation Frequency Management: NMAC Interagency Fire Radio Frequency
The NMAC Strategic Plan has not been widely distributed, even though it is being distributed via
a web link at http://www.nifc.gov/nicc/administrative/nmac/radio_com/radio_rpt.html
Clay read through some of the action items in this plan to the group, which included; Pilots are to
be tested on their ability to use these radios during the carding process, refreshers and
workshops will need to include specific training on the use and programming of radios as a
required part of the curriculum. The group will include this training in their sessions this year.
Emphasis should be made that narrow or wide and how the radio is actually programmed to be
used on the correct frequency.
States will be required to comply with Narrowband by 2013. The FS/BLM Fire and Aviation
Leadership Team (FALT) meeting will be addressing these issues. Greg advised that Montana
had the same issues and that their cooperators are not equipped for narrowband. They got the
okay to use the Montana DNR frequency for IA air to ground. Need secondary frequency for
zones. The AWT reviewed the current Aviation Frequency Guide and agree that the guide’s
current format is fine indicating that the frequencies are wide or narrowband. Users may however,
get confused so we will add a column to depict narrow or wideband and for narrow band
frequencies depict four digits beyond the decimal point and three behind the point of wideband
frequencies.
Air Guard tone guard is not well understood. Glen Johnston (FS) is taking this to the NIFC group.
Greg will take this to the BLM National Meeting. BIA was given an extension to 2007 to convert
their systems to narrowband. Colville BIA, however, has the capability to change over now. In
the short term we will have to be vigilant about this issue. STAT teams were of great benefit at
getting personnel trained in the field.
National Interagency Aviation Council Update
Jim passed out several handouts. Gray areas exist between policy and operational issues at the
policy level. It is not clear yet what the charge for this council is. The group has been formed but
the direction and support for the group is unclear. There are many papers being issued and
projects underway. Recent work involved; Katrina aircraft use decisions, interagency aviation
Strategy, Airtankers and informational issues, and BLM Fire Aircraft acquisition strategy. Jim is
the representative for the States, but thinks that we in the AWT need to be discussing these
issues concurrently. Currently there is a new airtanker study being undertaken. Phase 1 is a
snapshot in time and is no big deal. The phase 2 is tied to NATS 3 which will tell us what the
right mix of aircraft should be. Don Carlton, who was on the original NATS, is working on
updating NATS 2 to 3. This study wasn’t well thought out, but had a deadline and is being
worked to be complete by then. Jim’s goal is to provide this working team with the information
and for us to identify and discuss issues.
Aviation Training for 2006 IAT:
ACE April 3 – 7 2006 Spokane, WA
Aviation Awareness sessions are no longer being planned. What we are transitioning to is a
series of workshops (UAO, RT-372, etc.) that will include IAT 200 and 300 level courses.
RT-372 – ODF seasonal. Refresher needs to be shorter. S-372 ODF 10, is being considered.
Medivac Lessons Learned
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Dave Doan had shared their Lesson Learned from R-340 Medivac Incident with the working team
although he was not present at the meeting. As we looked over this material it is apparent that
each helispot needs to be managed somehow. There are any numbers of solutions, but mainly is
there a manager available to manage a first time in? The material in this handout needs to get
into the Operations arena perhaps as a six minutes for safety briefing item. Jon will hand out at
the FALT Meeting, and others will use this at the training sessions that they are planning to
attend. We will also add this to the agenda at our next AWT meeting for Dave Doan to share his
vision of the use of this information.
Geographic Additional Aviation Resources
As we look to the future of the coming season, it is the working team’s opinion that we are back to
a normal quota of airtankers. The question begs, do we need to gear up for additional
resources? This will be discussed in the FS. ODF is planning to putting on two airtankers next
year again as they have the past two years. Their strategy depends on what feds will approve
again. ODF focus is on where the airtankers are parked day to day. If the airtankers are taken
somewhere else as they are national resources, ODF is not sure that they can get airtankers
support when they need them. Bill Lafferty doesn’t think that IA is adequately covered with the
national strategy and only 20 airtankers available. Concerns are also voiced about what aircraft
the Feds will contract, and what would be left for ODF to contract. S-3’s are being looked at
again for airtankers. The AWT is planning to update the plan for 2006 depending on what
additional airtankers will be coming.
Policy Matrix
Update Helicopter manager to add note for multiple helicopters
SEAT Performance:
We are again covering familiar ground in that we are using aircraft that are being flown out of
where they were designed to be flown. Ag planes are designed for flat open spaces with low to
no wind or turbulence encounters. This is compared to the SEAT missions that are taking these
aircraft into mountainous terrain that have strong up and down drafts and quite variable wind
conditions. SEAT Pilots don’t have the planning information they need to know what their engine
power requirements are or what the aircraft is capable of carrying. The FS is still looking at
requiring charts for predicting performance along with maneuverability. At the present time the
802 is the only one that has the data. Pat Norbury is going to NIAC with this to get support.
Aviation Web Sites:
Clay will continue to update the Aviation Working Team website, and will mentor Scott Dewitz to
be able to update this and other FS/BLM websites.
Agency Updates
ODF
Jim Ziobro passed along a handout with 2005 Airtanker Fire Statistics. ODF had very good
results at the bases they operated from. The wished to extend a thanks to leadplanes at,
Redmond and Medford for support. ODF is planning to have a similar contract strategy next year.
The ASM flew nine fires, and could have been used on seven more. They didn’t get released
from AK soon enough to suit the state. They contracted five type 2 helicopters in August for 30
days. These were all federally carded and worked out all right. There is so much interagency mix
any more that not just one agency will be involved. The State wants their contracted aircraft to be
federally carded as well so that can be used by everyone. Having state resources complicates
the system. The Federal severity resources provided a lot of aircraft that were available to
supplement the State’s needs. AK had to be asked numerous times to send the bill so that FEMA
could be used to pay for the aircraft they received from them.
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USFS
RAO council meeting notes included; PPE requirements for tactical aircraft are being revisited as
a result of the accident last year, performance carding for pilots, certifications for new pilots.
There is a need to for each pilot to be able to produce a verification of total time in each aircraft,
and how this is accomplished is still up in the air. Inspectors have found vendors lying about
pilot’s time. The accident involving PSD Operation in Texas revealed that the pilot had only 300
hours. Procurement is looking at regionally contracting for medium helicopters in addition to the
national process that exists now.
Competitive sourcing for aviation resources is underway for the Forest Service. Bob Kuhn will
head up this for the agency, and will be working out of Boise. There are at least 500 positions that
need to be studied. Everyone is being considered in the study including pilots, smokejumpers,
rapellers, etc. The Aviation Safety Manager is the only position identified by the executive board
that won’t be considered in the study. The Exhibit 300 is ongoing and will tell us what
organization should look like. OMB is the agency that looks at this to give an approval or not.
Jon is heading a group to come up with an Aviation Doctrine for the FS. Contracted aircraft will
have to be calculated the stresses for our use which impacts their 135 operating certificates.
Airworthiness; 17 Airtankers were available this season, P 3 is limited to 19,000 hours, P-2V has
a wing inspection program which runs $3,000 to $ 500,000 per aircraft as well as a 15,000 hour
limit. The Beechcraft King Air flight manual states that the aircraft can’t be used outside their
design intent. Raytheon is charging $30,000 to provide this. There is a feasibility study
underway for 20 S-3 aircraft to be used as airtankers. An Aviation business system is being
proposed. Bob Roth is looking at interconnected applications to populate numerous forms. It will
be nice when we get there.
Regional updates; 10 pilots on staff with 2 vacancies that will be held until the 300/competitive
sourcing is completed, Mike Cook from Alaska received a lateral transfer to the Maintenance
position in behind Mike Brady, who passed away this summer from natural causes. The Cert for
Avionics Maintenance position held presently by Dennis Morentin, who is planning to retire is
available. The Helicopter Program Manager Position (vice Kim Reed) is on the street now.
Aviation Security – assessments are needed. Eric Schilling will come up with a needs analysis. .
BLM
Greg Loper is detailed in. Flight hours are down from the 5 year average. Three of the four
exclusive use helicopters got assignments out of the region this year. There is a budget proposal
from NAO for reduced budgets for aircraft to save money. Next week this will be spent working
through the details in Boise. BLM anticipate some cuts and compromises to be made from the
original proposal. A module for a task force was used this year and will be used as a model for
future developments. What was the success of this task force? Tactically was great were it went
and was supplementing what the units already had. It was hard to track were or why they were
being sent. The proposal really complicates interagency agreements.
BIA
The northwest had a pretty quiet year consisting of a number of small fires. BIA took a $5 Million
cut this year that took $200,000 off each unit’s budget. Exclusive use contracts are looking to go
to CWN as a result. There will be a reallocation of SEATs to other areas. Yakima may have one
next year. Warm Springs is being looked at for having one assigned.
FWS
Had a busy season and could have used the scoopers if available. Flew more this year than last
two years combined. We can’t obligate money to AMD anymore for contracts. The money got
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away from them in the budget process and they may be back to severity to support the SEAT.
They are committed to upgrading their program.
NPS
Clay is the new Regional Aviation Manager for the Pacific West Region. Most of the work with
the Park Service will be for non-fire applications. The North Cascades National Park is trying to
validate their Short-haul program. Mount Rainer is going out for a CWN contract for SAR. IN
September North Cascades, Mount Rainer and Olympic Parks completed a Mountain Goat
collaring project that went well.
The next meeting will be January 10, 2006 at the Gifford-Pinchot Supervisors Office in
Vancouver, WA.
Attachments;
Lessons Learned from R-340
2005 ODF Airtanker Fire Statistics
Interagency Aviation Strategy from the NIAC
NIAC Conference Call Notes from 10/7/05
PNWCG Aviation Policy Matrix
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