Town of Hinesburg
Public Informational Meeting
Selectboard Meeting
Meeting Minutes
February 9, 2012
Attending the meeting: Jon Trefry, Andrea Morgante, Randy Volk, Joe Colangelo and attached list.
Meeting called to order at 7:00 p.m.
Article II –Phase 2 of Mountain View Mobile Home Park Sewage Disposal System
Krister Adams spoke about project and showed a slideshow of what the project will entail.
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52 –lot mobile home park
Installed a system in the late 90’s that never worked properly
Completed Phase 1 this fall and will begin work on Phase 2 this spring
Asking Town to pass bond for up to $275,000—will not add any cost to users or taxpayers
Rocky will oversee project to ensure it is done properly
Will be using extremely well tested, proven system that will stand the test of time
Opened to audience for questions:
Jon Trefry spoke on behalf of Selectboard to say that the Selectboard fully supports this project and
hopes community will vote in favor of it on March 6th.
No questions from audience.
Article III—Public Safety Facility and Community Park
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Bond Article for Australian Ballot on March 6th.
Joe Colangelo introduced the project and requested that the audience keep the discussion civil.
Al Barber thanked audience for coming and referenced blue hand-out regarding project (attached)
Al gave a history of the Hinesburg Fire Department:
 Built in 1972 with additions in 1976 and 1999.
 Planning for expanded facility began in 2005
 In 2008-2009, plans developed and construction costs were estimated
 In 2010-2011, plans refined and construction costs updated
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Strategically placed in direct center of Town for insurance ratings.
Spent a lot of time planning for this
Fire station equipment/vehicles currently housed in three areas:
Fire Station--Old Fire Station—
Rented Storage—
Need for Additional Fire Department Space:
 Increased call volume/demand for services
 Insurance Services off of Insurance rating has tremendous affect on property insurance,
homeowner’s insurance.
 Adequate space for training—mutual aid
 Centralized location for all equipment and apparatus
 More energy efficient building
 EMT quarters
 Long term facilities to address current and future needs—adequate space for future apparatus
Frank Koss spoke about the Police Department area.
Co-location of the two departments (Fire & Police) has been very advantageous
 Saves Town a lot of money because all officers are EMT’s as well
Police Department equipment/vehicles currently housed in two areas:
 Police Station—1300 sq. ft
 Old Fire Station—445 sq. ft
Total=1745 sq. ft
Current Police Station:
 Purchased in 2001 as an interim Police Station in which the value of the property was
recognized as it’s close proximity to the Fire Station.
 Building consists of original section plus two additions
Need for additional space:
 Provide secure facility for processing, detention, and storage
 Centralized location of all equipment
 Adequate office space
Showed Pictures of Current Station:
 Uneven floors
 Significant floor settlement of 2nd floor
 Office space for up to 4 officers
 Wet basement, crumbling foundation & sill, dirt floor
 Crumbling garage foundation
Rocky Martin spoke regarding Lot 1 and the committee that was formed.
Lot 1 consists of the area behind the Fire and Police stations.
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A committee was formed in 2010 by the Selectboard to look at the lot and determine uses for it
and develop a plan.
Hired Broadleaf as consultants and they developed options reviewed by the Committee
--showed slides of the plan the committee came up with
--plan has evolved over time
--will provide green space for potential park and band stand
Joe Colangelo spoke regarding the financial impact of the project.
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2 bonds have been paid off recently for fire trucks
Bond as proposed will have a 3.5% interest rate
Showed impact to property tax bill if bond is passed
Asher Nelson representing the firm that was selected to execute this project if bond is passed.
--spoke of concerns that were noted in the current building’s design such as all bays are currently
located in the front of the building which presents concerns for pedestrian crossing.
Discussed proposed design:
 Added square footage would be about 9,000 sq. ft.
 Locating multi-purpose room on same side as green space
 Showed slides of working design/diagram
 In early stages of laying out interior design
Opened to audience for questions:
Will Patten—Question/Comment
Is the figure of 2.9 million dollars the result of cutting corners or is it the ideal solution you are
bringing to the town?
It seems we are basing this plan on fire trucks we don’t yet have, EMT’s we don’t yet have...
Answered 1st part—Al Barber responded
 2.9 million is targeted as a worst case scenario
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Gave history of how they came up with that figure—Rocky did a lot of work along with Rolf
Kielman
Original building wasn’t designed for outside aesthetics or concerns—only focused on inside
Rocky Martin spoke about history of price/estimate
 updated many times over the years
 2.4 million is actual construction costs estimate; other .5 million is for outside costs associated
with carrying out the plan
Answer to 2nd part—Al Barber responded
 Discussed need to plan for future and sufficiently meeting current needs of the buildings and
houses in town that we aren’t able to get to
 Currently don’t have the capacity to meet current flow needed on our pump trucks
 Ladder truck will be able to handle the job of three of our current trucks
 We have been fortunate to have St. Mike’s; however, as all communities grow, it is harder to get
ambulances here
 Charlotte, Shelburne, and Richmond all pay EMT’s
 Hoping to be able to have another town’s ambulance in town to model after ?
Response from Frank Koss
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Need space to store equipment before we can purchase new equipment
If we have quarters, we can get UVM students to be part of our rescue team
Peter Erb—Comment
I feel like we need more information to get the entire picture and show the impact this will have
on the taxpayers.
Response from Joe Colangelo
Showed the finance & tax information that shows the impact on the taxpayer’s wallet
Al Barber spoke about insurance ratings
 Some residents have discovered their insurance rates have increased by $600-$700 due to
insurance company software updates that resulted in a lower rating for Hinesburg.
 Ladder trucks and other equipment factor into this rating—ability to move water quickly
 Areas with hydrants will see drops in rating
Catherine Goldsmith—Question
Aren’t fires being fought more with foam now?
Why does the proposed building need to be so much taller?
Al Barber responded
First question--Yes, this will bring the rating down
Second question—New trucks are taller and there will be a mezzanine area in the middle
Roger Kohn--Question
Is the plan to demolish the current Police Station?
Rocky Martin responded
 That is the current plan—subject to change
 There is money in budget for demolition and filling in area
John Rose—Comment/Question
--Deeply appreciate the Volunteer Fire Dept.
--bus service coming to Hinesburg is great
In terms of bus service, are we aware if we have enough parking spaces?
Rocky Martin responded
Discussed potential additional parking spaces to fit those needs
John Rose—Comment
It seems the driving force behind this is increasing population; however, it has only increase by
50 in the past 10 years.
Al Barber responded
Alex had come up with more accurate information based on new building lots—300 new lots
approved
Frank Koss
We aren’t building this anticipating significant growth in population.
Al Barber
Spoke of aging population and need for more senior housing which increases call volumes based
on information received from other communities with the same type of population.
Looking at today but keeping an eye on future needs.
John Kiedasch—comment/questions
Concerned as well about planning for things we don’t have
How are we going to take care of this building?
Who will maintain it?
Who schedules for the community space?
Joe Colangelo responded—to question regarding who schedules the community space
It will be scheduled the same as the Town’s Main Hall space.
Al Barber—We (fire department) take care of current space.
We are looking at energy efficiency in other ways to save on heating/cooling costs, electrical
needs, etc.
Will cost more but not dramatically more because of how poor current building is in terms of
efficiency.
Truly anticipates growth based on surrounding communities and current developments
Our fire department strategic plan tries to address this effectively
Frank Koss
We will be using this extra space to store everything that is needed in one place—will allow
more efficient response times
Roger Giroux—Question/comments
Have you entertained the idea of auxiliary stations?
 Distribution should be located near higher crime areas
 Small police station and a couple of fire bays located up near mobile home parks and hills
Al Barber responded
We have looked at that option—spoke with other communities that have satellite stations
 Negatives are maintenance lags—Starksboro is a good example of this
 Maintenance would need to be attended to in multiple buildings and pieces of
equipment
Tom Dillon—Comments
Does see need for better Fire/Police buildings
However, as designed it seems far larger than our town can support
Will be left crippling Town debt
Will wind up with great building but won’t be able to afford new bonds
Come back with a more modest building design
Frank Koss responded
Would be sharing locker rooms, kitchen, etc. but for security reasons, we need separate spaces
as well
Roger Kohn—Questions
How do impact fees affect this?
How are they used and will they cover a substantial portion of this cost?
Joe Colangelo responded
 $70,000 total collected in impact fees to date
 $59,000 Fire Department
 $9,000 Police
 Spent $10,000 total out of impact fee lines
 Ordinance defines specific ways impact fees can be spent—must be spent within 6 years or
money goes back to entity.
 Showed slides of budget information related to impact fees to offset property tax
 $30,000/year to offset property tax
Roger Kohn—Comment
Perhaps impact fees should be increased
Johanna White—Question
How many of our roads would a hook and ladder truck be able to navigate?
Al Barber responded
Actually they are only slightly larger than our current truck
Geoffrey Gevalt—Questions
You mentioned that if we build this then the fire insurance will go down—does the building itself
have anything to do with it?
Where did you get these figures?
Al Barber responded
 In order to get the insurance credit, we need a space to train in. Currently there is no space
available in winter months.
 Hard to use borrowed space such as a school etc., due to the risk of damaging space during
training
 Mutual aid training helps in obtaining that rating
Anne Donegan
 Was one of the residents that had the spike in insurance rates
 Asked insurance company why rates increased—response—software update lost Hinesburg’s
rating so it showed increase
Joe Colangelo
Gave info regarding impact fees collected to date
 $70,000 collected so far
 $45,000/yr
 Felt $30,000 was a safe bet
Peter Erb
 Impact fees are roughly 60¢/sq. ft
 Hannaford will pay roughly _________ in impact fees
Will Patten
Feeling from a lot of people in town is that this is not affordable per the current economy.
Tom Ayer
This community has always supported the Fire Department and always will---but 3 million
dollars is a lot!
As far as Police Department, I’m not convinced the people of Hinesburg really know what they
want yet.
John Kiedasch—comment/question
 Wanted clarification on rating of department
Is there a re-rating every 10 years?
 We moved into a newly built house in 1984—our insurance rate hasn’t changed at all.
Al Barber responded
It is every 10 years or when we call for it.
Catherine Goldsmith—Question
Is the rating a voluntary thing?
Al Barber responded
 An independent company does the rating.
 Not every insurance company uses this rating, but most do
Jon Trefry—Comment
Spoke in favor of the proposal
 Police Department & Fire Department have a strategic plan that looks at today as well as 10-20
years down the road.
 Police Department clearly needs a space that is not falling down around them.
 Need a space to process criminals safely and securely
 Will provide location for a CCTA lot
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Community room—space is certainly needed for Rec. Dept. as groups are constantly turned
down due to lack of space.
Ladder trucks are needed to fight fires in new construction with trusses that can’t have people
on roofs.---doesn’t completely see the need yet
----------------Two minute break—taken at 8:58--------------------
Article IV—Town Manager vs. Town Administrator
Joe Colangelo introduced the article but excused himself from discussion—turned over to Will Patten,
the citizen who gathered signatures & submitted the petition
Will Patten
retired businessman—led national and international organizations
 With current organizational structure, the Town is trying to cope with 20th century issues with a
form of government designed for a 19th century framework.
 Currently responsibility sits squarely on the shoulders of the Selectboard
 Ideally SB should choose people to be responsible that have the skills and resources to do it and
then hold them accountable
 Town Manager is not taking a defined set of responsibilities and workload and moving them
from one side to another---instead, envisioning growing workload and allocating to resources
that are best able to address them.
 Big difference between management and leadership—Manager keeps everything going day to
day and leaders are looking at future needs and determine the best direction.
 Selectboard would be the leaders of the Town for policy and the big issues.
Feels the Town needs to reorganize itself and hopes the voters will choose to adopt the Town
Manager form of government.
Roger Kohn
Disagrees with Will—would vote against Town Manager
 Power brings arrogance
 Brings big salary
 Longer contracts—if something goes wrong, Town might have to pay off contract to get rid
of employee
 Feels it is dangerous for Town
 If current system isn’t broken, don’t fix it
Donna Cunningham
I don’t want to wait until something is broken.
Bill Moller—Question
Does Town Manager report to Selectboard?
Will Patten responded
Yes
Bill Moller—Question
How many towns have Town managers?
Will Patten responded
50 or so—More towns as they reach a certain size move to a Town Manager form of government
Andrea Morgante—comment
This question was brought up in the early to mid 1980’s at Town meeting.
It comes down to, what do we see as the function of government in a small town?
The Town provides service to our citizens. –In early years, we only had to maintain roads.
Town now has larger staff—up to a couple dozen employees
Harder for employees to have to meet with current management style (SB)
Supports Town Manager style for these reasons:
 Foster greater collaboration
 Integrating idea of working as a team
 Can be achieved better by having a manager in the building that has direction from the Board
Have to have a Board that is willing to be involved and develop a system of checks and balances—
Board could then focus policy and the broader issues.
Read a statement from VLCT with regard to a Town Manager
 Manager form seems to work well in communities where there is a stronger emphasis on
government efficiency and responsiveness
 Manager form seems to have more difficulty in towns that value political process and
participation
We continue to have a Selectboard that values community participation—should hire a Town
Manager that also shares these same values.
Peter Erb—questions
What would the legalities be of this power transfer?
Doesn’t see this as a business and how would this match our Town vision?
Will Patten responded
 Selectboard is currently treating Joe as a Town Manager but the responsibility still lies with the
Selectboard
 Town Manager is state statute driven
 Clarified that he didn’t state Town Management is a businesss but rather it is an organization
Roger Kohn—Comment
Danger of personality conflics between Town Manager and other employees
Jim Ross
Doesn’t see this as a power struggle—Andrea summarized it beautifully-Staff needs a leader clearly identified
That leader needs support which would come from
Ute Talley—question
How would Town Manager be hired?
Will Patten responded
Vermont statute states that Town would have to hire immediately
Jon Trefry
 When Joe was hired, the position was advertised a Town Admin-Town Manager
 Knowing this could potentially pass in new future, we wanted to ensure they would have a
candidate that would meet those qualifications as well.
 Feels it is a natural evolution for our Town
 In 2005, reorganized job description of Town Administrator to resemble much of what Town
manager.
Gill Coates—Comments/question
 Have gone back and forth on this issue
 Went on VLCT website and began to waiver
 Still feel this is too much power in one person’s hand that is a bureaucrat
 If it turns bad, we know how much that can cost the Town
How much would this salary cost Town?
Jon Trefry responded
 Doesn’t really have an answer
 Did do some research of other towns and found that what we were paying Town Administrator
at that time fell within those limits.
Andrea Morgante
We looked at the salaries based on what we found from other towns and set that salary based on
those findings
Gill Coates
Concerned that the person wouldn’t be an official of the Town but would have the power to hire and
fire
However, they can’t just be fired—there is a severance package, legal fees, etc.
Peter Erb
Transparency is critical in a small town
Have felt since the reorganization in 2005, transparency has gone down
Frank Koss
Nothing is hidden in this Town
Doesn’t feel going toward Town Manager will change that
Allows Town Manager to run Town and allows Selectboard to look ahead several years
Elly Coates
How will it work having a Town Manager?---It doesn’t appear the Selectboard has a clear policy in
place.
Jon Trefry
 Selectboard is Town Manager’s boss
 Town Manager reports to Selectboard
 Emphasize that communication becomes very important
 Selectboard needs to be vigilant in overseeing Town Manager
Andrea Morgante
 One of the issues that will be difficult is we have so many diverse opinions in town
 Need to bring all the diverse opinions and find where consensus is.
Randy Volk
 Much of what I have heard tonight is true—for and against
 Have wrestled with issues himself but now supports Town Manager style
 We are currently operating under this model but simply aren’t calling it that
 As far as justification for this salary—very much in line with the salaries of other towns this size
 It is critical that the Selectboard stays engaged with the Town Manager and stays on top of
them
Bill Moller—Comment
Trust the good in whoever is hired in this position; if bad things come up then deal with them at that
time
Randy made motion to adjourn meeting; Andrea seconded the motion.
Meeting adjourned at 9:54 p.m.