Bilag 4: Interview med Dr. Carlin Interviewer: Rikke (R) Dr. Carlin (C

Bilag 4: Interview med Dr. Carlin
Interviewer: Rikke (R)
Dr. Carlin (C) Ph.D. in communications
R: Thank you so much for helping me out.
C: You're welcome!
R: I really appreciate it. As you know I'm writing my bachelor's thesis right now in advertising, and I'm working
with a commercial from Head & Shoulders who are using a Danish sports star who is very famous.
C: Yeah you said that.
R: In Denmark and Europe, yeah. And I wanna talk to you about the trends in advertising and branding and see
how it fits into that. And I'm not looking for the "right" answers, I'm looking for your answers so there are no
wrong or bad answers, just to make sure.
C: Sounds good.
R: And if you need anything, any questions elaborated, just let me know. Okay. Well first I would love to hear a
little bit about your background in communications and advertising, both in the field and teaching.
C: Uhm, let's see. I guess, working in media, uhm, so I never worked for an advertising agency per se, my end was
always, or on the client's side per se, mine was always the media part. So I started when I was younger, you
know, right in college and then out of college working for a commercial radio station.
R: Okay.
C: So it was, uhm, a, I guess it was a middle of the road radio station, meaning it was a, not like a rock station or a
hip hop or whatever, it was just, it played, it's goal was to reach adults and primarily, uhm, it was a regional, it
was 50,000 watts so it went several 100 miles, so it had a powerful signal and so they made their format as broad
within that demographic of buyers. So it wasn't like just men for a rock station or whatever, so I learned a lot
about, from that aspect, about what you can do with that kind of a platform that reaches that many people... It
was the only radio station of its size in that area. ...And what kind of ads come in, and how they're used. So for
example, like, uhm, every holyday, every event, every major happening, graduation whatever, uhm, there were
tons of advertising, because they were always trying to reach... And that was the old days of media was, you
know, and we're talking mid 1980s... was trying to reach as many people as possible, get your message out
broadly across all the buyers.
R: Mm.
C: And so we would have those things where they would, you know, they would come in, we would... they would
always have an idea, we would record it, put it on and then it would run with it. They would build a schedule of
let's say, it was a sale, usually the shortest might have been two weeks, but most of the schedules were for like a
quarter, like three months or whatever, and that's definitely different than today.
R: Yeah.
C: So we'll get to that, but back then it was buy an event, buy a time of the year, uhm, create your creative, make
your creative and then get it to that media outlet because we had such a broad based audience, we weren't
narrow at all. We would get clients from all over from tractors to department stores to McDonald's to whatever,
uhm, beer, any number of different things that would advertise. I was amazed by the variety of products for that.
Now, compare that to, now I worked at other stations, but, uhm, 1992 to '94, so eight years later, seven eight
years later I was in Dallas, Texas, large city, I was teaching but I was also working at a radio station part time and
I did, one of my jobs was, uhm, doing a lot of the commercial production for them, making the commercials.
R: Okay.
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Bilag 4: Interview med Dr. Carlin
C: Different marketing. It was a smooth jazz station. Very narrow, right?
R: Yeah.
C: So we're looking at, you know, men, women, you know, urban, you know, certain taste, more wealthy than not,
highly educated, a very distinct target audience. And very much so that were the advertisements. And they
weren't so much, uh, planned around events and things, although they did use that, they were very much around
image building, and partnering the those products with that smooth jazz lifestyle, and how the music was used
and how it fit, you know. Might have been a Buick and Fossil Watch at this event, so it was much more refined
and more image rather than, you know, the more general kind of, you know, get the message, awareness.
R: Yeah.
C: And the reason I mention those two is because that's how I see how advertising has gone because of the
internet and social media. We've gone from doing screamers and "SALE, BUY, DO" to really trying to make
connections. So, and I've seen that develop from, you know, when I was in college, you know, all the way till now
where, I had Dr. Biswas who is our social media PR expert come in and talk about that. I'm not! I'm not an expert
in Google Adwords, I know what it is, and I know how to, I know what metrics are, and even hot zones on
websites and all kinds of different things that you can use now. It's fascinating. But it's gone from limited amount
of feedback, from your, you know, you do that campaign, it goes for a quarter, it goes for two weeks, or it goes for
a year, you would get limited feedback. Yes or no, it might have impacted sales or whatever, we hope it did! The
only way you would know, is if you asked somebody. But if it's a grocery store and you did a sale for macaroni
and cheese, how would you know, unless you saw exponential growth, but there wasn't a lot of, except for the
ends purchase data and then you would assume that the ads had something to do with it. TODAY, by building
these connections, now we have this whole series of metrics and data and connections.
R: Yeah.
C: So that's what I... I mean, generally speaking, and that's what I've seen in all the things that I've done, and I've
made some commercials and recorded them, we did TV and we did, uhm, you know, promos for different places,
for the bank, for the butcher shop, all kinds of different clients here and regionally, even for the state system,
even for the university. Those have changed. Less general, more specific. And more focused and even now trying
to leverage, you know, technology and how, whatever the user is, uhm, what kind of person, male or female,
whether they're a technofobe or they're really an innovator.
R: Yeah. Because that's what I was gonna ask too. Because advertising and branding are huge now.
C: Yes!
R: And every company tries to get at the top, uhm, so to you, what are most important tools in advertising? What
are the things you need to keep in mind when you're creating ads?
C: Right, so for the advertiser? For the brand?
R: Yes.
C: Uhm, I think you have to... Number 1: Be able to, uhm... Because of the way the technology in our world works,
that you have to build a library of assets. Meaning; you have to be able to take your brand and be able to across
multiple platforms, mobile phones, TV, radio, billboards... You have to have a library of assets, it's not just one
idea, you have to be able to know what, you know, what your competitive advantages, what are your unique, you
know, USP: Unique Selling Proposition, yes, but also what makes you different, because it's all about, uhm... It's
great to have all those tools and technologies, but if you're not able to have a bunch of assets, meaning; different
spots, promos, campaigns, contests, whatever the tools that you have... You need to have those multiple number
of tools across platforms that all can take whatever your unique, competitive advantages are, and efficiently get
those messages out in those platforms. 'Cause the TV commercial, yes it could be re-purposed, right?
R: Yeah.
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C: And shown on Facebook, but wouldn't it be better... not that you can't do that... but wouldn't it also be good to
have a Facebook campaign designed around or tie end to that or some way to either do a contest or answer a
question or a give-away or something. Something unique that builds on word-of-mouth. And so it used to be, if I
was a brand, and I was Volkswagen, "I stand for this", you know, "this my brand, this is what I do", and I might
have that competitive thing, I'm somehow different and I might have one or two or three commercials. That's not
enough anymore. You've gotta be able to leverage your competitive advantages. What will allow you to break
through the clutter of all the others? Because everybody else is doing it. And it's not like if you're on your device,
or I'm on my device, that, you know... You're gonna be besieged by stuff in so many different ways so you gotta be
able to really identify who... You know, what your core strengths are, your uniqueness, and then build it, and then
secondly, I think, based on the different things that I've seen and read and watched is, brands have to be, because
of technology, transparent. They really have to be able to, uhm... You can't hide secrets, you can't. You've gotta be
out there to mix and work with people and be able to deal with whatever situation comes about, because
feedback in the media, it's now, it's ongoing. So you can't... If a customer... If you're at South West Airlines and a
customer has to get into, or has trouble getting into a seat because they're too large or they have trouble at the
customer service's desk because they had to change flights, you know, you might never hear about it, but now it's
tweeted, it's...
R: Yeah.
C: So transparency is the key. So you've gotta know who you are, that's... Highly identifiable. Create assets around
that, and while doing so make your company, uhm, transparent, meaning that, you know, you've gotta make your
company and available partner. Right?
R: Yeah.
C: I mean, that's what it's all about today, is building relationships. So if you're transparent... You know, if I have a
hidden agenda, a student's not gonna come to me for answers, they're not gonna deal with me, but if I'm
transparent, they know who I am and they know what I stand for, then they have a better sense of whether or
not to come and ask me or talk to me or whatever. So that's important, I think there has to be that ability for any
company to... And their brand, to get it out there and then keep their house in order, that's a transparency part,
you know, "here I am, this is what I stand for", and you can see, that's what I am. So it's not hiding anything, it's
understanding the consumer, it's feedback and deal with you.
R: What about, uhm, are there any specific trends right now that are very popular and effective on the target
audience? Like for example, people say that sex sells, or something like that. Are there any trends right now?
C: I think, uhm, let me think here. Uhm, I think, animals are big! Animals, uh, there is also a renewed interest in,
how should I put it, like uhm, I'm thinking patriotism, but that's not really the word I'm going for, it's like, uh...
Like Procter & Gamble did during the Olympics, or whatever, they did, uhm, rather than just espousing their...
"This is what Tide does" or what their products do, they tried to build image around partnerships, like... I guess,
loyalty is what I'm saying. You know, trying to fit slice of life, uhm... So beyond the humor and animals, then tying
in that, I really see a lot of loyalty of relationship building, of being your partner, you know, problem solver.
R: Yeah.
C: And I think a lot of consumers they, you know... Even Cadillac, "we're not just a, you know, luxury car, we're a
luxury car that solves this problem. You know, we wanna be your partner in this, uhm..." So I see this could be
financial services, it could be McDonald's, so I see a lot of multi-faceted campaigns that are targeted... Like I said,
a lot of different assets. Any company now, it's not gonna be one thing. You know, sex, yeah, I mean, that's always
a part of attracting certain audiences like males and beer, and those things aren't going away but I do see a lot
more in the world of, uhm, you know, less necessarily of product demonstrations, you know features, and more
about benefits. You know what I mean? So like I said, like how can we solve these problems? What can we do for
you? How does it... So slice of life. See the product in action, rather than "it does this, it does this, it does this", you
know, basic features thing, but more about "it solves this problem, it does this". That's what... You know, I see a
lot of that, I don't, you know, spokespersons are still... And the reason for that is breaking through the clutter, you
know. It's one thing to list all your features, but then, you know, "they have those features" and it all starts... But if
you have an identifiable spokesperson, you have a unique, you know, a unique feature that you can demonstrate.
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You know, sure, if it's sex, that's great, if it's animals that's great, if it's... But I really think it's slice of life, and it's
the ability to take that product and put it, show it off as it's doing something.
R: Mm.
C: You know, even, like financial services, like e-trade or those things that used to be just "we can do this, this"...
Now it's not like that anymore, it's like, it's more showing the results, so more results oriented.
R: Okay. Uhm, as you know, the ad I'm working with is a TV commercial, and you were talking about you need
more than that. But what part or what role does the TV commercial play today in advertising?
C: Oh it's still huge, I mean, it's still garners, you know, the most GRPs, the most impressions, the most ratings
points. I mean, you're gonna reach the most people, uhm, just in one quick swoop, right? If you take a good TV
commercial and you put it out there in multiple TV platforms, uhm, you'll see it. Okay, that's the goal. And it also
then can be re-purposed on the web, in social media, on Hulu, you know, Facebook, so a good TV spot is great for
building awareness and giving you, in 30 seconds, it will give you that slice of life that basic thing, but... A couple
of issues. One is; people skip commercials, so they might not ever see them in the first place, so you really have to
leverage that by extending the campaign onto social media somehow, and build those relationships. You know, if
you're gonna do a new scent, a new flavor, of Head & Shoulders, which I use, so for me it's like, I've been using
that since I was a kid, because we didn't buy it because we had dandruff, it just gets everything clean, so and I, all
the new scents it's even better, it's not just one, so you can use it, for me with athletics, and I might have to, and I
go play soccer, or whatever, and it doesn't kill my hair, whatever, but now it smells good, and now there's 18,000
different varieties of it, so what are they doing with it, are they marketing that it's... You know, that it works
better, not necessarily, now it can solve, you know, you wanna smell good, you wanna... It's relate, you know, it's
better for your partner, blah blah blah, so, uhm, I think that's key in building brands and what they need to do.
Did I answer that right, or what else did you ask me?
R: Yeah, no, that's great. Uhm, do you think that an advertising campaign could work solely with TV
C: No! I don't. Well, okay. Mostly not, but if you're... If the audience is big enough, sure. If it's a world cup, if it's the
Superbowl, if it's a huge event, and especially if you have something unique about the product or something new
or different. Just a commercial you've been running, no. But if you have something, where a lot of people are
there, and they probably won't turn off the commercials, uhm, you could generate a lot of buzz, but then people
might need more information to build off on it, but if you've got a new, like I said, a new product line for Head &
Shoulders, a Head & Shoulders deodorant or something else, you know, that would make a really big splash with
a lot of people to build awareness. We still don't, beyond that, you still might not be able to get enough detail to
extent it and get people to really understand what... "Head & Shoulders, that's shampoo, what's that all about? I
saw that once, I'm not quite sure". So if you don't have the other parts of your campaign today, I just don't think it
will be as... You're missing out!
R: Yeah.
C: You know, it's like what Kleenex does. We know what a Kleenex does, right, you know, a facial tissue. But I was
reading the other day, they've really gotten into tapping into data that they're getting from Facebook and even
watching Google and keywords. So, and they do it by location. So, you know that in the winter here in
Pennsylvania or in the North East, people are gonna get sick and need Kleenex. That's true, but where might
there be an outbreak, or where might there be really bad weather, and so if people are on the internet searching
for, there might not be searching for Kleenex! They might be searching for a cold solution, and that's popping up
from a lot of locations because of the data. You start to do what? Heavily advertise in that area with your TV
spots or whatever. So I think that, the feedback and the data that we can use to then place those commercials and
television or other media, uhm, has to be essential. You have to. There is just... Because, just think, I'm 50, but as I
get older, you know, and people like you, and even younger, my son who's 10, you know, how much TV will they
really watch on a TV?
R: Yeah, that's true.
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C: Unless it's a big event. I mean, my daughters are watching Netflix to watch TV shows, so you're really gonna
have to figure out, going forward, and that's the problem of companies with advertisers. A lot of them, and then
for me as an educator, a lot of them don't have the expertise of people to aggregate the data, to analyze the data,
to filter the data. Because it's relatively new, so they hire out to a company that has those people, or they hire a
social media director to do it, you know what I'm saying? So that's relatively new, based on how long
advertising's been around. So those... That's where the jobs are, and if those people, smart people can figure out
data, you get more of those people that can deal with metrics and like that, heaven forbid, I like the creative side,
right? But somebody's gotta, you know, see where that... You know, "your product might be necessary in a
certain location", or what the need might be, you know, if there's, you know, "we need frozen foods there because
there's a shortage of tomatoes because we had a crop frost". So if you got a product that... whatever, so I mean it's
all real time stuff. And I think that's really important today, is real time, monitoring. So TV is very effective in the
right situations where people will see it, and then you can run it over and put it in different places and reach your
target audience. But really you don't get the depth and the engagement and the relationship with just... You've
gotta change it, you gotta keep it... You know, Old Spice is a good example and what they've done with that guy in
the weird, unique commercials. Or Axe deodorant! So those kinds of things where "hey, I've got a deodorant, but
it's unique, it's different, here's what it is, here's what's on TV, then there's is this contest, then we're on
Facebook, Instagram", photos of people, using it, whatever it might be, that's what where you build that loyalty, I
think. You know, it's a lot of work! It's a lot more work than it used to be, plus most of the advertising budgets
aren't that much larger, especially in these economic times. So it's really about, if I had a million dollars to spend,
I would put 900,000 into some TV, but now it's like, well maybe that's not as efficient, maybe I need to add social
media, well I can't give another 1,500,000, it's gotta come out of that million, so I spend less here and more here
and then try to figure it out, you know, where you're... And the key is, where does your client, consumer, target
live, how do they use TV, or how do they use Facebook or whatever.
R: Uhm, in the commercial that I'm working with, they use celebrity endorsement, uhm, what are some of the
benefits and drawbacks of using celebrity endorsements?
C: Right, so... Well benefits are, they are highly identifiable, right? They stand for something. So if you partner the
right product with the right celebrity, identification is key. And so what you're doing is banking on somebody
being loyal to that celebrity, and through association with that product, uhm, you're gonna, they're gonna be
loyal to that as well. So that's good because people like people, and so if Michael Jordan is doing, you know,
Hang's Underwear or whatever, "I might try that 'cause Michael he's great and he can move around and play
basketball and so I want some underwear that doesn't bind or this or that or whatever. I'll use that". Uhm, so that
the primary advantage. They're highly visible, they draw a lot of attention just for who they are, they associate
with the brand. The drawback is if anything goes wrong. You know, if it's like Kobe Bryant and you're under
suspicion, like he was several years ago for adultery, then what do you do? Or Tiger Woods. There's an even
more recent example. So if that relationship goes wrong then your brand is in trouble.
R: Yeah.
C: So what do you do? You're taking a big risk, that that person who signs that contract is the same day in and day
out, you know, and honors what they signed for in terms of how they're gonna behave and how they're gonna
act. And then number 2, people suffer burnout with celebrities. Or they think they're sellouts or whatever. So
that's part of it as well, so you can't overexpose the celebrity. You've gotta use them wisely. So relationships are
great, but overexposure... Unless you're really, I really love Michael Jordan, that I'd do anything that he would do.
Celebrities can get annoying and get in the way and block out your message too.
R: Yeah. Well how important is it that the brands mix and match, uh, for example Michael Jordan, underwear, but
he's backetball, but you know, they have to...
C: I think it's good, it's gotta be a fit. It's gotta be a natural fit. Uhm, you know, whether or not they wear
underwear or t-shirts, yes, so they need to, you know, you want a good looking guy, modeling clothes, that's still...
Sex sells! So, uhm, and that's part of it, you know, does it fit with what... You know, he might advertise a Volvo as
a car, does that really fit, does that... It depends on what the campaign is, but is there a better choice for that? Is
there somebody that Volvo users... So it's really knowing your target and then trying to fit, you know, those key
celebrities into the mix. You know, because you can sign anybody that's famous, but does that person resonate
with that target audience? So that's really, you know, you gotta test it, do a queue test and see how they fit, and
do people, you know, do they see that as a fit. Like Cal Ripken, you know, my favorite baseball player, you know
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what kind of things would he... He stands for being honest and fair and he was the iron man, he played in the
most consecutive baseball games. So you don't want him for stuff that doesn't fit that image. Michael Jordan's not
gonna do something for, uhm, a casino, necessarily or something where it doesn't fit his squeaky clean image,
you know, or whatever, so that's the thing. So it's easy to do Gatorade for Michael, underwear for Michael, Nike
for Michael, yeah it all fits. But when you start to get into stuff like, you know, Taco Bell or something, or maybe
he never eats there, then that gets a little dicey, so yeah, you know, it's gotta fit and the consumer has to see it fit.
R: Yeah, 'cause this commercial, this sports star...
C: Soccer player?
R: No, it's handball.
C: Handball!
R: Yeah, and he has long hair so it's shampoo, but he's not known to have beautiful hair, he's just known to have
long hair, so...
C: Well that's like Troy Polamalu for here, you know, doing Head & Shoulders. He's a football player with his hair
in a helmet, but you know, it sticks out. He was never known, long hair, but not necessarily beautiful hair, but the
way that Head & Shoulders has marketed him in those spots is, now it's beautiful hair. They even have spot
where he magically gives his hair to another guy in the locker room and now he's got... The next thing you see is
the guy with the hair, and he's got to babes on either side, or he's driving a sports car and things like that because
of the beautiful hair. But that's not where it started. It started with the benefits, and clean hair and what it does
for me, and then they like, Joe Mauer and Head & Shoulders and it's clean, and so a woman comes up to him and
smells his hair and this and that. So it starts with clean and goes to sex, and you know, if I have clean hair, I can
have a woman.
R: Yeah, but I think maybe the problem with this commercial is, when you see him again in a match, he still has
greasy hair.
C: Looks the same? Yeah, because... Definitely here with Polamalu and those, they look, the hair looks better. It's
not mad, it looks fresh, it looks clean, it looks flowing. So I don't know, I haven't seen that one, but that's what
they did here. 'Cause I thought the same thing about him. It's sweaty in a football helmet, why would they pick
him? But obviously because if he uses it in the rest of life, except for when he's at practice on a field, he's got hair
that needs to live outside of a helmet, so Head & Shoulders helps him to live and live elegantly, beautifully, but
they've really run with that, so the latest spots, are him, like I said, magically "here, spend a day in the life of my
hair, see what it does for you, get Head & Shoulders".
R: Yeah. Great. You spoke a lot about word-of-mouth when I was in your class. What role does that play now?
C: It's huge! It's huge. I mean, it always was important before because we, not just in advertising, but in a lot of
the different things that we do, you know, we get information and make decisions a lot of times from opinion
leaders and people that we care about or share their opinions, whether it's your parents, your friends, or it's a
clique, you know, you spend so much time with these people and you relate to them that, sure something sticks
in your mind, and you can get it, and then they could spread it and you're in those social groups, and typically
those people are in the same groups that, you know, you're attracted to a product, there's probably other like
people, that would be attracted, so it's very important, it's not like you're talking to people you don't normally
associate with and they could be scattered. Once you get one person in a social group, you can get other people in
that group and that's what's really great about word-of-mouth, and so that's exacerbated and spread because of
social media. So it's just about converting that and... Like my wife, she'll sit there on Facebook and you know, it
could be a recipe she sees and spreads and then other people spread and so, and they're making comments about
it, that's word-of-mouth! That's taking something and spreading it so that people can either agree or... You know,
it's a culture of Like now! That's word-of-mouth, there's liking, or going to Instagram and finding that and
sharing, so it's all about sharing. It's all about taking things and spreading that word of mouth. It's the same thing,
it's just, now your friends are not just people that you, in the old days, just hang out with and their social group.
Now they're people that are in your group but have moved away but are still friends and so, it's massive, whether
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it's a Tumblr whether it's an Instagram, whether it's any of those things, they're just extending the ability to
engage, and keep engaging longer.
R: Yeah.
C: And that's the key, so those... She can come back on and look at it again and get comments and spread it
further. And that's the key so I think word-of-mouth is so utterly important today that, you know, a lot of people
have, instead of calling it media buying and media advertising, it's all about communications planning and even
some of them have called it connections planning. Because you're really just going about building connections.
And the reason is that friends are loyal. And if you're an advertiser and you want loyalty, so you know, if you can
establish those friends and keep engaging them and, it's not a... The end isn't the end of the funnel where they
buy, it's gotta be advocacy all along and even feedback at the end. "How's that product doing for ya? What can we
do to change it? How can we... Hey, you were once a purchaser, you know, yeah it would be great to get you to
buy again or to buy an extended warranty or whatever if, you know, whatever it is", but you've gotta have service
after the sale.
R: That's true.
C: And that's what... You know, and word-of-mouth extends that as well. People will "hey, yeah, they, I've been
working with them, I go there to get my oil changed in my car" or "I went back to Coal's because they had a, you
know, they wanted me to come back and go there again" or "there's a discount for me because I bought it at Shoe
Buy before and now I can get a 20 % discount, because I'm a repeat purchaser" or whatever. So those kinds of
advocacy relationships and spreading it via, you know, word-of-mouth and social media too are crucial.
R: Yeah. Uhm, the commercial I'm working with was voted the worst commercial in 2013 in Denmark. What are
some of the things or strategies that can be fatal in advertising today?
C: Yeah, not... In that case it's either a mismatch of your celebrity with the... That's a killer, you know, is a misfit,
or credibility. You know, you lose credibility of that, you know, it just doesn't, it just looks like you're pushing an
agenda, it's not transparent, you're just "really, why would he be... I don't get that". Poor execution, meaning, you
know, it's the creative concept is just, it's muddled, it's not clear, it's not something that can be easily, uhm,
identified and recognized and seen as a fit. It's not engaging, it's not funny, it's not... That's all poor execution, it
just, the message and how it's portrayed, they don't match, they don't fit. Uhm, I really see that ads that are
phony, I just think that the generation of people today... Because technology allows us to bypass a lot of ads,
R: Mm.
C: From traditional. So what does that mean? That means that those that actually watch a commercial, they're
gonna be tuned off because the message doesn't fit or it's a lie, or they don't believe it, it's phony. Or that they
just don't have time for it, so if your message isn't memorable, if it isn't unique, so it's gotta be memorable, it's
gotta be unique, it's gotta be based on what the consumer, what your target wants and needs out of it. So it's
more of a... The strategy really have to be first to figure out what the consumer, you know, how they use that
product, how will they... What problems can be solved? Because it can't just be, "Hey, I've got this new shampoo!
Here's my features, you should buy it". That's not credible, that's not authentic, that's not transparent, it's
shoving it down people's faces and because of social media and because of people not, "hey, I only have three
choices. Now I've got a gazillion choices as to where to look and where to use. And I have so much media, I don't
have time for that, I don't need to spend time on that, so you better engage me, you better make it important and
R: You've gotta work with the consumer?
C: Exactly! That's it. If you don't do that, I think you're done. So I think, you really have to be able to have your
campaign fit across multiple platforms and work with the... You know, if I create something for Volvo and I run a
TV spot and I advertise it during a golf tournament, perfect! There are golfers watching. But if I try to take that
same ad and put it on Facebook or Tumblr or somewhere, and think I can just re-purpose it. Those people aren't
there. So it's gonna get ignored, and the word-of-mouth might be negative. "Can't believe that's on here, blah blah
blah". So I think, although Facebook and Adwords and stuff can allow the website or platform to target you based
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on who you are, your browser, you've been there before, cookies and other data, but uhm, you know, mass
placement; bad strategy. Mass placement of stuff that's not thought out, not engaging and not unique are bad
policies. You know, bad celebrities, uhm... It's just gotta, you know, it's got to engage them, it's either humor or
real benefits or loyalty, poor at their heart strings, it could be emotional, you know, uhm, there's lot of that kind
of advertising. Tying in emotions to products, well how would you do that with Head & Shoulders, well it's gotta
be love, it's gotta be clean, those things that we want, you know, feeling self-confident. That's what comes from
Head & Shoulders. Not just shinny, I mean that's part of it and you can do that, but I really think that if you're
going for... You need to have multiple perspectives that somebody, you know, "I wanna feel good, I wanna feel
that I don't have flakes, I don't have fear, I don't have this", or whatever it might be, so those kinds of key
emotional, uhm... Like, what's his name, uhm, can't remember, "love marks", he worked for Saatchi & Saatchi, but
that was his campaign was... And cheerios is the perfect example of that. You know, Cheerios are little oats, but
their commercials are very much emotional, you know.
R: Yeah that's right.
C: Cheerios and a baby and grandma, and do they tie that bond. You know, yeah, the one I just saw was the dad
and the son at the check-out aisle. And the kid, this little kid he's, you know, 7 or 8, says, "Why are you picking
that, dad? Is there a prize in there?" And you know, and he's, as the kid says it, he's looking at heart healthy
benefits thing is on there, "well yeah, I guess there is", there's not a prize like a toy, but that's the emotional part,
and so I think that's another thing that works well is that, execution, whether it's humor or emotion or whatever,
it's tied not only to the client, but it fits, it resonates with what that consumer expects or craves or desires. "Yeah
if I'm looking for a deodorant , it better smell good but hey it better attract women or it better not, at the very
least, it better not send them away". So I think that's key.
R: Okay. We talked a little bit about this, but how do you see, uh, the advertising and branding world have
changed over the last decade or so?
C: Yeah, it's definitely, uh, it's an industry based on mediacy and real time. So that's so different. It used to be
where everything was scheduled. You know, if you're buying television in the United States from the fall TV
season, when all the new shows come out, you buy it in April. You can't do that. I mean there's some of that that
is still done, but there is so much more spot buying, buying at the last minute, and it's a much more real time,
uhm... And the advertising's edgier. It's more engaging but it might be, we didn't really talk about that, but yes
sex sells, but sex in different ways, it's edgy, it's more... 'Cause you gotta break through the clutter, you've gotta
make... If the product fits that, or it could be like cheerios, it could be more emotional in that direction, but, so but
I think it does push the limits and I think you'll see even more of that, more emotion, more trying to really link
your brand with, not just a slogan, but, if you take McDonald's for example, yeah, we know what kind of food they
have but, you know, for each one of their segments; breakfast or coffee or, you know kids and children, and on
the go, and all that, there's different, you know, they do things differently. Some of their on the go stuff is pretty
sexy because they're trying to get high school and college students, you know, because you have more time to go
out with your babe or whatever it might be. It's a different way than the old Ronald McDonald. You know, so it's
just, it's a different, you know, so you really have to think about, you know that aspect of the media, of
transparency, of you get immediate feedback, good and bad, the people are gonna comment about your stuff
right away, word-of-mouth spreads, your stuff could go viral. You know, that's just, it's a big deal today, you've
gotta anticipate that. And I think the one thing that I've seen a lot more of, A: Is, digital. There's so much more
digital and I, you know like outdoor, and point-of-purchase, point of consumption and stuff, like at a stadium or
at a ball park or at venue or if you're at a school, there's advertising, you know... But point of purchase too.
There's all kinds of things, that used to be, just put up an end cap at a store and that were a display, but now
there's digital. There's all kinds of things. Watch a video, watch a this screen, do this, there's music, there's... You
know, that's one. And the other part I've seen a lot of is experiential marketing, where we set up displays. It used
to be we just hand out samples, or we'd put a sample of Head & Shoulders in the mail. Now it's more than that,
we set up, go and, you know, we set up things in the quad, and have people come and taste new things or play a
game, climb the highest mountain or climb this wall, you know, experience Hershey's chocolate, experience
whatever if might be. So that experiential is a bigger component, why? Because people don't trust things
anymore, they wanna touch it, they wanna feel it, it's all about credibility and it's also about engagement. And we
can get peope there, get them to events, we can partner with events and sponsor, we can put up our displays,
have a little game contest or whatever, uhm, with a product at an event or somewhere, uhm, man! You can get a
lot more word-of-mouth moving along, so I see a lot more dollars, which used to just go into TV, going into these
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other places, you know, becoming a really diversified campaign, that's the biggest thing. The campaigns are
diversified, they're multi-platform, omnipresent, they're everywhere. And agencies and advertisers and media
have to, you know, deal with that, it's just because that's where the people live, you gotta go get them.
R: Yeah. It's sounds a lot like the consumer is... They have a lot more power now?
C: Absolutely! Absolutely, that's where the power is. Because in the old straight lined, linear way of doing
advertising it was "here's my idea, let's put it on TV, let's put in the newspaper, and we're done".
R: Yeah.
C: We'll schedule for three months and then see how that happens. It's not like that, there's just way too many
outlets and way too many ways for people to miss your traditional ad. We've gotta exploit, or at least try and
learn to exploit digital, and all its facets from, yeah that still includes television, that still includes things like that,
but it also includes opportunities to engage and to get your product out. Product placement. That's another big
thing. There's a lot more product placement. Why? Because people can't skip that, it's in media, so I see a lot
more product placement than ever before. It used to be like, I remember in class, in that class that you were in,
you know, we'd watch Rosanne or we'd watch, I think we did, so that's the 90s, and the beer can is, you know, it
just says beer on it , it's a fake.
R: Yeah.
C: Now, if you had beer in there, you'd have all kinds of advertisers trying to get Coors Light or whatever as a
prop, and pay to do it, because the advertisement for Coors Light might get missed, so there's a lot more of that.
What I think I'll see even more of, is characters in these actually referencing.
R: Yeah.
C: "Give me a beer! Or no, give me a Coors Light!" So that becomes even more of that kind of association and the,
you know, if it's a movie star, they have no say, it' sin the script. They might be a devoted Heineken drinker, but
the script says Coors Light, you know, so...
R: I remember we saw the movie "The Greatest Movie Ever Made"...
C: Yeah ..."Ever Sold"... Yes.
R: Yeah, "Ever Sold", and that was nothing but brands all the way through.
C: Exactly! So, and that's the thing that, one of the big things out of that particular movie was how we go about,
you know, shaping your brand, figuring it out, you know, what's your brand personality? What do you stand for?
You know, like in that movie for example Apple and Morgan Spurlock and Target, you know, were similar, they
were all mindful, playful brands, you know. And that's what I would think Apple is to me, it's mindful, smart,
savvy, but playful, it's fun to use, uhm, so that's important is, for understanding who you are, then selling that,
marketing that, but then too, the other part that you saw a lot of in his film was, you know, neuro-marketing.
Looking at consumers and seeing how people are processing information, so I guess that would be a, uh, big key,
whether or not it's neuro-marketing or other things, it's just the detailed level of the research you can do now,
it's astonishing.
R: Yeah.
C: So it's all about data and how to aggregate it, pull it all together, you know, you gotta have smart people, that's
the industry today, it's just, it's geeks, it's... I saw in Mindshare, it's an advertising company, and I was looking for
some examples of, you know, some short clips, and there is one that they did, talking about the shift from Mad
Men, you know the show, but that image of the advertising executive as "here's the creative, we have an idea, we
create 1 campaign and it runs for a year", to, what they call now, Math Men, M-A-T-H, it's all data-based, so we
can't just have that one campaign, we need to do the numbers, we need to crunch the data, constantly be looking
at the data that we get back, the feedback, where they're using it, how they're using it, you know, what they're
doing with it, and then change our campaigns - be adaptive! "I need a different spokesperson, oh I need this
spokesperson to say this, or to do this". It's like the AT&T stuff that they're running lately here, uhm, they have
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this beautiful girl, woman, she's in charge of, uhm, she's the, it's an AT&T store, and she's got the corporate suit
on, well uniform, uhm, but now they've got her, instead of just doing the one ad, they've got her in different, you
know, different people, well people, actors, would come in with different problems. It's a family, it's this or this,
and she solves it. She's the problem solver, you know, and so that whole thing, and what I read in the article was,
that's all based on the relatively new commercials produced within a month, based on the kind of feedback
they're getting from social media. "I like AT&T and I like the price but what about families, what can we do?" So
they create a new commercial, and then maybe have a campaign where they have a contest or whatever it might
R: Okay.
C: And then, so I think that's the key, yeah I think, you know, there's so much going on with advertising that there
really is an emphasis on being adaptive, being, uhm, flexible, just, and understanding the consumer, you really...
Because I remember the old days, it was blind. "I'm pretty sure that these kind of people are watching that TV
R: Now we know.
C: Now we know a lot more detail, so you can really target that, but it also means you have to work a lot harder to
sieve through that information and pay for that information or hire people to work for you that you're paying to
go through that information. Set up campaigns, set up Adwords, set up... Now that's a lot of stuff to do, it's just so
different, than just the old days of "let's run our newspaper ad, or radio ad, whatever, and then we'll base success
on, just on sales", but now there's, you know, sales is still determinant, but we can, in the interim, if things
change, or somebody adapts and... once the... wait 10 years from now when you've got every company advertiser,
whether it's Levi's, Budweiser, Shippensburg University, really using these social media and other digital tools.
Now everybody's using those tools, and everybody's competing, maybe someday we'll just come back to an oldfashioned ad. I don't know, because people will be so cluttered and so burned out and so tired of stuff, I don't
know, so that makes stuff like product placement even more important, because people are always gonna wanna
watch good content and good stories, so if we can get our products in or associate with, that's really where the
key is and how much... But that could then fund programming. So it's just a very interesting world, the way things
are. We have all these channels, let's use them, let's get feedback, but then itself is gonna cost clutter, so then
maybe we'll go back to simpler methods, I don't know. But I mean it's kind of like, it's almost like a cycle, so we'll
have to see how people develop tools and what they do with it. It's just fascinating to me. Digital, it's changed,
you know, television, it's changed news, it's changed music, how and what we do with it, changes how we drive.
Heck, a car can park itself now, right? And all that kind of stuff so it's no different with advertising.
R: Mm. We have a beer in Denmark that's got, it never used any money in advertising, it only went word-ofmouth, and it's one of the most sold beers in Denmark. So maybe that's where we're heading, somewhere in the
C: Yeah, no if you can get a product right, uh, that's the same thing with, uhm, the iPod when it first started. It was
word-of-mouth, but they did some campaign with YouTube and stuff, but really it was just *snap with fingers* the
fastest adoption in history of technology. Why? Not because of their ad campaign, it was last than a lot of other
products they've launched, it was just, it hit the right demographic with the right tool at the right time and it just
spread and word-of-mouth, "you got one?", it's like... So, it just depends on the product but absolutely, if you've
got a good product, and you can execute your strategy well and then keep developing that loyalty, that's
important. You know, Yuengling does the same thing here for beer, you know, there are people that like a
definite style of "that's what I want", and as long as you keep executing it, that's good. As long as you don't get
any negative publicity or feedback or bad word-of-mouth.
R: Okay, well that's actually what I had.
C: Oh good!
R: Thank you so much!
C: You're welcome! Glad that I could help.
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