1
Chapter 1
PREFACE
This thesis project describes the creation of the Hmong-American Oral History
Project, which was undertaken in 2010-2011 to begin to preserve the memories of
members of the sizeable Hmong-American community in the Sacramento region. The
Hmong are an ethnic minority group who originated in China and who live in parts of
Southeast Asia.1 Starting in the late 1970s, tens of thousands of Hmong began to migrate
to the United States as refugees from Laos, a small landlocked country in Southeast Asia.
They came to the United States as refugees because of their involvement as allies of the
United States during the Vietnam War in the 1960s and 1970s. Hmong refugees
principally settled in California and Minnesota, and the Sacramento region has the third
largest concentration of Hmong-Americans.2
My interest in the Hmong community in Sacramento stemmed largely from being
a first-generation Hmong-American. My family came to the United States in 1987. Like
the interviewees for this project, I was born in Laos, escaped to Thailand with my family,
spent a few years in the refugee camps in Thailand, and then came to the United States.
1
Throughout this project, the term Hmong will be used to represent all Hmong. I have chosen to use
“Hmong” as inclusive group representing all the different dialects of Hmong culture due to it is more
widely used in literature when referring to the Hmong. The Hmong consist of approximately twenty clans.
Some examples of clan names are Her, Lee, Moua, Vang, Yang, Xiong, etc. There are two principal
dialects: White Hmong (Hmoob Dawb) or Green Hmong (Moob Ntsuab). Green Hmong is often referred
to as Blue Hmong. White Hmong and Green Hmong differ in dress, dialect, and written language. For
example, White Hmong women wear white skirts and Green Hmong women wear colorful skirts.
2
According to the 2000 United States Census, Sacramento was the second most populated Hmong
community in California. Sacramento had a Hmong population of 15,814. Fresno had the largest Hmong
community in California with a population of 22,371. Fresno was only second in Hmong population in the
United States to the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul.
2
The youngest child of four children, I was only six years old when I arrived in the United
States. We settled in Fresno until 1997, when my parents moved the family to
Sacramento, which they thought would provide more job opportunities for their children.
After graduating from high school, I studied Liberal Studies as an undergraduate at
California State University, Sacramento, graduating with a Bachelor of Arts degree in
2003. I returned to pursue my master’s degree in Public History in 2004. As a member of
the Hmong community in Sacramento, I felt that there was a need for an oral history
project to preserve the local history of the Hmong community.
The specific purpose of the project was to record the experiences of firstgeneration Hmong-Americans in the Sacramento region, who had graduated from a post
secondary institution. First-generation Hmong-Americans have experienced the refugee
experience along with assimilating into American culture and pursuing the American
dream of higher education. The oral histories will serve as resource about the Hmong
community in Sacramento, available both to community members and scholars. Like
autobiographies, correspondence, and diaries, oral histories give a firsthand account of an
individual’s life or view of an event in their life. Therefore, the interviews in this project
document the interviewee’s personal life experiences, including memories of Laos,
escaping Laos, the refugee camps in Thailand, the decision to come to the United States,
their education, and assimilation in the United States. The oral history interviews were
digitally recorded. A finding guide or transcript was created for each interview, and they
have been deposited into the Department of Special Collections and University Archives
at California State University, Sacramento to be made available to researchers.
3
Chapter 2
A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE HMONG
Today the Hmong can be found in Southern China, northern Vietnam, northern
Laos, northern Thailand, northern Burma, Australia, France, Canada, Argentina and the
United States.3 The largest group of Hmong resides in China, where traces of the earliest
written history of the Hmong are found in Chinese texts. In Chinese history, the Hmong
are referred to as “Miao.” Miao are an ethnic minority group, which includes the minority
ethnic groups of Hmong, Hmu, Kho Xiong and Hmao. The earliest historical texts with
the mention of the Miao are from the Hsia dynasty from 2207-1766 BC. Between the
Hsia dynasty and the Ming dynasty (1368-1644) the Miao are mentioned oft and on
throughout this period.4 At times, the term Miao often referred to outsiders that the
Chinese considered to be barbarians and was not just a reference for the Hmong. In the
mid-1800s the Hmong began migrating to Laos, Vietnam, and Thailand to escape
Chinese persecution.5
The Hmong who settled in Laos formed villages in the highest mountain peaks. In
1972 between 300,000 and 500,000 Hmong lived in Laos.6 They were slash-and-burn
3
Judy Lewis, ed., Minority Cultures of Laos: Kammu, Lua, Lahu, Hmong, and Iu-Mien (Rancho Cardova:
Southeast Asian Community Resource Center, 1992), 253.
4
Nicholas Tapp and others, ed., Hmong/Miao in Asia (Chiang Mai: Silkworm Books, 2004), 63-64.
5
Lewis, Minority Cultures of Laos, 258, 260; Lan Cao and Himilce Novas, Everything You Need To Know
About Asian-American History (New York: Plume, 1996), 227.
Christian Culas and Jean Michaud, “A Contribution to the Study of Hmong (Miao) Migrations and
History,” in Hmong/Miao in Asia (Chiang Mai: Silkworm Books, 2004), 81.
6
4
farmers. They staked hillsides, cleared it of undergrowth and “set fire to them, creating an
enriched residue,” where they planted food crops and opium. The Hmong planted a wide
range of crops including dry rice, cucumbers, melons, eggplant, Chinese mustard, onions,
beans, soy beans, cabbage, ginger, parsley, chicory, yams, taro, manioc and sugar cane.
They often relied on the forest for food such as bamboo shoots, mushrooms, and wild
honey.7
The Secret War in Laos
The events that led to the migrations of thousands of Hmong to the United States
originated in the Cold War, specifically in the Vietnamese civil war. After World War II,
Vietnamese nationalist and communist Ho Chi Minh attempted to liberate and unify
Vietnam under communist leadership. The United States opposed his efforts, providing
first military advisors and then American troops to defend South Vietnam from the
communist North Vietnam. Even though neighboring Laos was to remain a neutral
country under the 1962 Geneva Protocol, the United States began a “Secret War” in Laos
from 1961 to 1973. The United States was concerned about the spread of communism in
Indochina and did not want Laos to become communist. With war brewing in Vietnam
between the communist North and the non-communist South Vietnam, Laos became
entangled in the war. The Viet Minh, a communist-oriented Vietnamese nationalist
organization, created the Ho Chi Minh Trail as a supply line to assist with their war
7
Jane Hamilton-Merrit, Tragic Mountains: the Hmong, the Americans, and the Secret War for Laos, 19421992 (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1993), 29; Yang Dao, Hmong at the Turning Point
(Minneapolis: WorldBridge Associates, 1993), 50-51.
5
efforts in South Vietnam and part of the trail ran through the mountains of Laos.8 In Laos,
the Pathet Lao, a communist political group, supported the Viet Minh. The “Secret War”
would change the lives and livelihood of the Hmong living in Laos.9
Because of the Hmong’s strategic location and skill, the United States Central
Intelligence Agency (CIA) recruited Vang Pao, a Hmong military leader, to command
Special Guerrilla Units (SGU) in Laos. In late 1960, a CIA secret agent named “Colonel
Billy” approached Vang Pao about helping the CIA’s efforts in Laos. Vang Pao agreed
to help.10 Pa Dong became the first military base created by Vang Pao in early 1961.
Later, he designated the town of Long Cheng to become the permanent military base in
Laos for his guerilla force. By late 1962, Vang Pao was promoted to the level of
general.11 General Vang Pao went to Hmong villages and recruited Hmong men and boys
to fight in the war. They were trained by American CIA at the base camps and also in
training camps in Thailand. Often the Hmong forces were used to launch quick attacks
against convoys or fixed locations. They also detonated roads and bridges that the Pathet
Lao used as important supply lines. Some Hmong soldiers collected intelligence trying to
decipher the movements of the enemy. The Hmong soldiers also performed search and
8
Ibid., 9.
9
Lewis, Minority Cultures of Laos, 267; Lawyers Committee for Human Rights, Forced Back and
Forgotten: The Human Rights of Laotian Asylum Seekers in Thailand (New York: Lawyers Committee for
Human Rights: 1989), 7.
10
Sucheng Chan, ed., Hmong Means Free: Life in Laos and America (Philadelphia: Temple University
Press, 1994), 30.
11
Ibid., 36.
6
rescue operations for downed American pilots. More than 15,000 Hmong soldiers died
during the Secret War.12
With the signing of the Vientiane Agreement in 1973, the United States agreed to
end aid to Laos. By 1974, the Laotian government had surrendered to the Pathet Lao and
became a communist country. On May 10, 1975, General Vang Pao, his family, and high
ranking officials were airlifted out of Laos into Thailand then into the United States. Only
three thousand Hmong were able to be airlifted with General Vang Pao. The evacuation
stopped after General Vang Pao left. The remaining Hmong population, who did not
support the communists, came under siege from the Pathet Lao for supporting the
Americans. The Pathet Lao arrested some Hmong families and put them into re-education
camps. Many were never seen again. They also went into Hmong villages and started
shooting at the Hmong.13 The Hmong population was displaced due to this political
persecution.
Refugee Camps
After 1975 an estimated 100,000 Hmong died in Laos and another estimated
100,000 went to Thailand, seeking refuge. Thailand became the first country of asylum
for Hmong refugees. Many Hmong families faced a treacherous journey from their
villages through the Laotian jungle and across the Mekong River to Thailand. Often the
12
Thomas Vang, A History of the Hmong: From Ancient Times to the Modern Diaspora ([Canada?]:
Thomas S. Vang, 2008), 233, 249; Paul Hillmer, A People’s History of the Hmong (St. Paul: Minnesota
Historical Society Press, 2010), 93, 118.
13
Lawyers Committee for Human Rights, Forced Back and Forgotten: The Human Rights of Laotian
Asylum Seekers in Thailand (New York: Lawyers Committee for Human Rights, 1989), 6-8; Vang, The
History of the Hmong, 298-301.
7
Hmong were being shot at as they were trying to escape Laos, and many died during the
journey to get to Thailand. Many families escaping Laos traveled at night to avoid
confrontations with the Pathet Lao. The Hmong arriving in Thailand between the late
1970s to the mid 1980s were placed in refugee camps near the Laos border. 14
Thomas Vang, in The History of the Hmong, states that there were three main
waves of exodus of Hmong from Laos into Thailand. The first wave of Hmong exodus
between 1975 to 1976 came as a direct result of the “Secret War” in Laos. To deal with
the refugees from the first wave in Thailand, eight refugee camps were created in
northeastern Thailand. The second wave of exodus, from 1977 to 1979, came as a result
of the new Lao People’s Democratic Republic’s attacks on war veterans, officials and
supporters of the resistance fighters. The third wave, from 1980 to 1985, came as a result
of “the continuing conflicts and poor economic condition in Laos.”15
The Hmong refugees were mainly placed into the Ban Vinai or Chiang Kham
refugee camps once they reached the Thai border. Ban Vinai was the largest camp
housing up to 40,000 refugees in thatched huts. After the closure of Ban Vinai to refugees
in the early 1980s, the refugees were sent to Chiang Kham in northern Thailand. The
Lawyer’s Committee Rights, a human rights organization, reported that, “unlike the
village-like appearance of Ban Vinai, the bamboo and thatched huts in Chiang Kham are
14
Ibid., 8; Ibid., 311.
15
Vang, A History of the Hmong, 310-311.
8
packed in tight uniform blocks and the camp is enclosed by barbed-wire fencing.”16
Chiang Kham at one time housed up to 16,000 refugees.17 All the camps were supported
by funds from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), whose
mission was to assist and protect refugees.18
The Thai Ministry of the Interior (MOI) was in charge of the refugee camps. If
the occupants of the refugee camps wanted to resettle in a different country, they had to
pass interviews with the Ministry of the Interior. The Ministry of the Interior interviewed
families to see if they qualified for refugee status. A refugee was defined by the Ministry
of the Interior as:
former military and government officials (in the Royal Lao government) or
persons who have worked for foreigners (embassies, firms, international
organizations), who have participated in political and social movements against
the Communist government, or who have participated in political and social
movements against the Communist government, or who have relatives in a third
country. 19
Refugees who passed the interview with the MOI were able to be relocated to a third
country, including the United States, Canada, France, and Australia.
After being approved to be relocated to a third country, many refugees were
transferred to Phanat Nikhom camp, a processing center only for refugees who had been
16
Lawyers Committee for Human Rights, Forced Back and Forgotten, 33.
17
Ibid.
18
Lawyers Committee for Human Rights, The UNHCR at 40: Refugee Protection at the Crossroads (New
York: Lawyers Committee for Human Rights, 1991), 2.
19
Lynellyn Long, Ban Vinai: The Refugee Camp (New York: Columbia University Press, 1993), 155.
9
accepted for resettlement in other countries. Marisa Benyasut, author of The Ecology of
Phanat Nikhom Camp, described the cramped living space at Phanat Nikhom as follows:
Three or four families are assigned to one living quarter which is shaped similar
to a soldier’s barracks, built of concrete, wood, corrugated steel and bamboo. The
living quarters are placed in a quadrangle; one quad consists of four houses which
are assigned 8-16 families. There is an open area in the middle of the quadrangle
for everybody’s use.
While in Phanat Nikhom, the refugees had to study the language of the country in which
they would be resettling and were taught basic skills that would be useful in the new
country. The elderly and young children were left out of the training. The transit center
also helped the refugees, providing final medical check-ups and arranging their travel
documents. 20
Settlement in the United States
The first Hmong refugees arrived in the United States in December 1975. During
this month, the United States admitted 3,466 Hmong refugees.21 With the large influx of
refugees from Southeast Asia after 1975, the United States Congress approved the
Refugee Act of 1980 as a national policy. The Refugee Act of 1980 provided support to
the voluntary agencies that sponsored refugees with a $500.00 grant for each Indochinese
refugee resettled.22 The act also allowed refugees to be eligible for special public cash
20
Marisa Benyasut, The Ecology of Phanat Nikhom Camp (Bangkok: Institute of Asian Studies, 1990), 40,
47.
21
Cathleen Jo Faruque, Migration of Hmong to the Midwestern United States (Lanham: University Press of
America, 2002), 39.
22
Paul J. Strand and Woodrow Jones, Jr., Indochinese Refugees in America: Problems of Adaptation and
Assimilation (Durham: Duke University Press, 1985), 39.
10
and medical assistance along with social services.23 The initial resettlement of refugees
followed a dispersal strategy designed to settle Hmong in many communities around the
nation. This was done to “prevent an undue resettlement burden on any one state or
community;” the refugees would be dispersed throughout the United States instead of
being concentrated in anyone state.24 Supporters of dispersing the arriving refugees
throughout the United States also thought that it would make them adapt more quickly
into the American culture if they were not settled as a cluster. Even with the efforts of the
government to separate the refugees, however, secondary migration occurred in the
United States and the Hmong moved to create ethnic enclaves in California, Minnesota
and Wisconsin. The first wave of Hmong into the United States had difficulty adjusting
to the culture but they were able to provide a support base for the later waves of arriving
Hmong.
Since 1975, the Hmong population in the United States has increased
dramatically. In 1990, 94,439 Hmong were counted in the United States. The 2000
census showed that 186,310 persons of Hmong origin lived in the United States, which
almost doubled from the 1990 census. 25 However, many believed that the Hmong were
undercounted in the 2000 census and that their population was even higher.
Edwin B. Silverman, “Indochina Legacy: The Refugee Act of 1980,” Publius, 10, No. 1, (Winter, 1980),
29-30.
23
24
25
Ibid., 30.
Hmong National Development, Inc. and Hmong Cultural and Resource Center, Hmong 2000 Census
Publication: Data & Analysis [publication on-line] (Washington D.C.:2003, accessed on 25 October 2010),
4; available from http://hmongstudies.org/2000HmongCensusPublication; Internet.
11
Due to the rural background of the Hmong, transition to life in the United States
was often very difficult for them. In Laos, they built their own houses and had no
electricity. Most Hmong had no or very little education in Laos and did not know how to
read or write.26 Even though they received basic training about the United States while in
the refugee camps in Thailand, nothing would prepare them for the reality of their new
lives in America. The Hmong experienced culture shock upon arriving in the United
States. Many Hmong did not know how to use electric appliances or toilets. Language
became a difficult problem for the Hmong. Most did not understand English and could
not communicate effectively with doctors, teachers, and other agencies.
Initially, the Hmong relied on assistance programs while adjusting to life in the
United States. Many Hmong families received federal Refugee Cash Assistance (RCA)
during the earlier waves of migration. They were available to the Hmong families for the
first thirty-six months after arrival.27
The last wave of major migration for the Hmong to the United States came from
the Wat Tham Krabok, a Buddhist temple in Thailand. The abbot, Phra Chamroon
Pamchand, supported the Hmong and provided a safe refuge for them at the temple. He
encouraged Hmong living in other camps, such as Ban Vinai, to come live at the temple
as an alternative to going back to Laos or migrating to another country. However, when
the abbot died in 1999, the situation changed at the temple. The Thai government closed
26
Donald A. Ranard, ed., The Hmong: An Introduction to their History and Culture (Washington D.C:
Center for Applied Linguistics, 2004), 26.
27
Chan, Hmong Means Free, 68-69.
12
the camp in 2003 to any new refugees and wanted the Hmong living in the camp to
relocate. The United States government allowed the Thai Hmong at the temple to resettle
to the United States. 28
28
Ranard, ed., The Hmong, 22-23.
13
Chapter 3
CREATING THE SACRAMENTO HMONG-AMERICAN ORAL HISTORY
PROJECT
Oral history is not merely the act of recording interviews. To ensure that oral
history follows a professional standard, the Oral History Association developed
principles, standards, and guidelines for oral histories. The purpose of oral history
interviews is to preserve the information of a “witness to or a participant in an event or a
way of life…and making it available to others.”29 Donald A. Ritchie, in Doing Oral
History: A Practical Guide, advises that an interview turns into an oral history only
“when it has been recorded, processed in some way, made available in an archive, library,
or other repository or reproduced in relatively verbatim form for publication.”30 Having
the oral histories available in a repository allows for research and verification.
Furthermore, oral history interviews that have been conducted well “can present and
preserve convincing evidence and put it into first-person prose that enlivens historical
narratives.”31
Given the recent nature of Hmong settlement and their importance to the recent
history of the Sacramento area, an oral history project to record and preserve the
memories of the local Hmong community seemed like an excellent public history project.
29
Barbara W. Sommer and Mary K. Quinlan, The Oral History Manual, 2d ed., (New York: Altamira
Press, 2009), 1.
30
Ritchie, Doing Oral History, 24.
31
Ibid., 119.
14
Therefore, when deciding on a project to complete my master’s degree, I chose to do an
oral history project. During the course of my master’s training, I took a semester-long
course on Oral History methodology, which gave me the necessary background training
and practical experience in interviewing. I applied this oral history training as I developed
the Hmong-American Oral History Project. Essentially, the project entailed five steps:
defining the purpose, designing questions, identifying and contacting interview subjects,
conducting interviews, and producing transcriptions. In this chapter, I discuss my work in
the context of the professional literature on oral history practice.
Defining the Purpose
The first step taken in an oral history project is to define the purpose of the
project. The purpose of the project was completed first because “it defines project
focus.”32 The specific purpose of my project was to record the experiences of firstgeneration Hmong-Americans who had settled in the Sacramento region and graduated
from a post secondary educational institution. As outlined by Ritchie “an oral history
project might be concentrated on a neighborhood or a particular ethnic group within the
community.”33 I decided to limit the study to the Sacramento region because there is a
strong Hmong community presence and many subjects available. In addition, as a
resident of the Sacramento region, I would be familiar with the community and would not
have to travel outside of the area.
32
Sommer and Quinlan, The Oral History Manual, 12.
33
Ritchie, Doing Oral History, 48.
15
I decided to approach the oral history project as defined by Howard Sacks Why
Do Oral History? as the interpretive approach: “…interpretive projects explore meaning
within the human condition.”34 The oral history project would explore the experience an
ethnic group and stimulate a discussion about their experiences.
Designing Questions
The second step is designing the questions. The interviews would focus on their
personal life experiences, including memories of experiences in Laos, the refugee camps
in Thailand, the decision to come to the United States, their education, and experiences in
the United States. Therefore, the Sacramento Hmong-American Oral History Project
would add insights into the Hmong refugee experience and their assimilation into
American society.
Using the knowledge from the literature on oral histories and my own personal
experience as a refugee, I formulated the interview questions. Donald A. Ritchie, author
of Doing Oral History: A Practical Guide, recommended that “it is safer to have too
many questions than too few.”
35
With Ritchie’s advice in mind, I formulated a total of
85 questions separated into six different sections: experience in Laos; experience in the
refugee camps and decision to come to the United States; experience in the United States;
family life; Sacramento community; and higher education and current life. The questions
Howard L. Sacks, “Why Do Oral History?,” in Catching Stories: A Practical Guide To Oral History
(Athens: Swallow Press, 2009), 12.
34
35
Ritchie, Doing Oral History, 86.
16
progressed from when the interviewee was born to his/her current life; therefore, the
interview questions represented a life history approach.36
In formulating the questions, I focused on creating more open-ended questions
rather than close-ended questions. David M. Mould states that open-ended questions
allow “the interviewee freedom to reflect and explore a topic.”37 For example, “How did
the Secret War in Laos affect your family?” Using open-ended questions allowed more in
depth answers about the interview subjects experience than close-ended questions that
require only a “yes” or “no” response. However, using close-ended questions wisely can
help “when essential information or clarification is needed.”38 For example, “Did you
know any English upon arrival?” Having a range of questions allows the interviewee to
expand on certain questions as well as be brief on other subjects.
Identifying and Contacting Interview Subjects
The third step was to identify interview subjects. To identify interview subjects an
initial contact letter was developed. The purpose of the project was included in the initial
contact letter:
The specific purpose of the project is to record the experiences of first-generation
Hmong Americans who have settled in the Sacramento region and have graduated
from post secondary institution(s)…The Sacramento Hmong-American Oral
History Project will give future generations important insights into the Hmong
refugee experience and assimilation into American society.
36
Ibid., 40.
David H. Mould, “Interviewing,” in Catching Stories: A Practical Guide to Oral History (Athens:
Swallow Press, 2009), 97.
37
38
Ibid.
17
Having a strong understanding of the interview subject’s culture and history
provided many benefits to the interviewer. Stephen H. Paschen in Catching Stories: A
Practical Guide to Oral History states that in order to have an effective oral history
interview, the interviewer has to research the topic so that “the interviewer understands
the overall context in which the topic fits.”39 As a member of the Hmong community in
the Sacramento region, I was familiar with the history of the local Hmong community
and had experienced firsthand the refugee experience of settling in America. However, I
needed to bolster the knowledge gained through personal experience with scholarly
resources, and I began researching both the history of the Hmong and the Hmong refugee
movement to the U.S. Basic research into the history of the Hmong and the refugee
experience was conducted using both traditional and published material and internet
sources.
Identifying interview subjects can be an important and challenging part of the oral
history process. My goal was to interview five to ten interview subjects for the project.
Beginning in March 2010, I reviewed online resources, contacted local organizations,
networked with family and friends, and used Hmong community leaders as “gatekeepers”
in order to find potential interview subjects.40
My initial effort to identify subjects involved online research for HmongAmericans who held higher education degrees. Online resources can provide contact
Stephen H. Paschen, “Planning an Oral History Project,” in Catching Stories: A Practical Guide to Oral
History (Athens: Swallow Press, 2009), 33.
39
40
Ritchie, Doing Oral History, 89.
18
information for organizations or individuals that may be interested in being an interview
subject. 41 I located, Christian Hmong Fellowship, an organization whose website listed
Hmong-Americans who currently held a doctorate degree in the United States.42 The
website currently listed 415 Hmong-Americans as receiving doctorate degrees in the
United States. I reviewed the list looking for Hmong-Americans holding a doctorate
degree who had an address in the Sacramento region. Seven Hmong Americans in the
Sacramento region were identified from the website and selected. Initial contact letters
were sent to these individuals. See appendix 2. The initial contact letter introduced
myself to the potential interview subjects and included a description of the project and
contact information.43
Besides sending out initial contact letters to the potential interview subjects found
on the Christian Hmong Fellowship website, I also contacted two of the interview
subjects identified from the online resource. I visited Dr. Judith Vue and Dr. Benjamin
NhaBee Herr at their South Sacramento offices. Dr. Vue works professionally as a
dentist, and Dr. Herr works professionally as a chiropractor. I was able to speak directly
to Dr. Vue in her office, and I contacted Dr. Herr by phone. They both stated that they
wanted to do the interviews because they wanted to support members of the Hmong
community. The interview subjects were confirmed and appointments were set.
41
Ritchie, Doing Oral History, 89.
42
Christian Hmong Fellowship (accessed 5 March 2010); available from
http://christianhmongfellowship.org/doctors.html; Internet.
43
Ritchie, Doing Oral History, 89.
19
Continuing to search online for potential interview subjects, I located Mai Xi Lee
through the Sacramento Unified School District websites. Ms. Lee was the vice-principal
at Luther Burbank High School. I sent Ms. Lee an initial contact letter and received two
weeks later a phone call from her inquiring whether more interviewees were still needed.
I advised her that more interviewees were still needed and an appointment was set up for
an interview. I inquired about more leads from the individuals but the leads did not lead
to more interviews.
I also identified interview subjects through the use of gatekeepers. Gatekeepers as
called by oral historians are people who “develop more influence, respect, and standing
with an organization, profession, or community.”44 Gatekeepers help identify potential
interview subjects and assist in persuading the individual to be interviewed. William
Longyee Xiong, my brother in-law and a local Hmong leader, acted as a gatekeeper. He
contacted potential interview subjects and helped to set up the interviews. Two
community members, Dr. Kou Xiong and Vince Xiong, agreed to speak to me about
being an interview subject after William Longyee called and spoke to them about my
project. After receiving acknowledgement from them through the gatekeeper that they
would like to learn about the project I contacted them. I was only able to reach Vince
Xiong. Vince advised that he was interested and an appointment was set. When locating
potential interviewees not every lead pans out.
Dr. Serge Lee also acted as a gatekeeper in the Hmong community. Dr. Serge
Lee, a professor in Social Work at California State University, Sacramento declined to
44
Ritchie, Doing Oral History, 88.
20
participate in the project, but he recommended two CSU, Sacramento Hmong professors:
Sia Xiong and Ka Vang. Dr. Lee further suggested Patrick Vang, a teacher at Luther
Burbank High School, a local school. I followed up on the leads online by doing a
general web search on his name and identified Patrick Vang as a possible interview
subject. Patrick Vang was on Sacramento Magazine’s “15 Top People to Watch” for
March 2010. I sent Mr. Vang an initial contact letter through email. Mr. Vang sent a reply
stating that he would like to be an interviewee for my project. He advised of his schedule
and an appointment was set for an interview at his convenience.45
Identifying interview subjects is a significant step. Some sources that I thought
would give me potential interviews turned out to be false leads. I identified local
organizations that supported the local Hmong community in the Sacramento region. An
initial contact letter was sent to the local community organization, Hmong Women’s
Heritage Association. I did a follow-up on the initial contact letter by visiting the office.
I spoke with Pa Kou Vang, the Interim Executive Director of Hmong Women’s Heritage
Association. Ms. Vang advised that she was not interested in being an interview subject
but would check with co-workers by sending them an email describing my project. To
my disappointment, I did not get a response from anyone interested in being an interview
subject from the Hmong Women’s Heritage Association.
Catherine Warmerdam, “15 People to Watch,” Sacramento Magazine (March 2010) [journal on-line]
(accessed on 9 April 2010); available from http://www.sacmag.com/media/Sacramento-Magazine/March2010/15-People-to-Watch/; Internet.
45
21
A total of five interview subjects were identified. My original sources to locate
interview subjects had to be broadened due to the limited response. Because oral history
divulge into their past, some people were not interested in doing an interview. Some
people consider an oral history interview to be too personal and may not be ready to share
their life’s history. Specifically, those that have been through a traumatic event may not
want to share the details of that experience until a later time. Through the use of online
resources, local organizations, and networking interview subjects were identified. A key
component to identifying interview subjects is through networking. Identification of a
gatekeeper with the Hmong community is beneficial to locating interview subjects. I have
learned that finding interviews may be a challenge but broadening your search can
support the process.
Conducting the Interviews
The fourth step is conducting interviews. In preparation for the interviews, I
needed to design the legal release form. A legal release is required to ensure the legal
rights are transferred from the interview subject to the Oral History Project. The legal
release form or deed of gift signed by the interview subject establishes that they
understand “what the interview would be used for and establishes its ownership.”46 A
legal release form was necessary if I wanted to deposit the recordings or transcripts in a
library or archives.
46
Ritchie, Doing Oral History, 114.
22
In developing the release form, I consulted Ritchie’s Doing Oral History: A
Practical History and David Mould’s Legal Issues in Catching Stories: A Practical
Guide to Oral History. Mould suggests “…to draft an all-purpose release form that grants
the organization flexibility in determining future uses of the interview.”47 To finalize the
release form, I met with Sheila O’Neill, Head of the Department of Special Collections
and University Archives (SCUA) at California State University, Sacramento. I discussed
with Ms. O’Neill the possibility of depositing the collection of oral histories and
transcripts once the project was completed. Ms. O’Neill advised that the completed
interviews and transcriptions would be a welcome addition to the collections of oral
histories that the department currently held. The Department of Special Collections and
University Archives had recently acquired a Southeast Asia Community Resource Center
Collection, which included books and artifacts from the Hmong community. After the
approval was received from Ms. O’Neill, a release form was created to allow the oral
history project to be deposited in this archival collection.
Next I set up the interview date and time with each interview subject. A
confirmation email with the date and time was sent to each interview subject to thank
them for their participation and to remind them of the date and time of the interview. I
advised the interview subject that a quiet place was needed to ensure the best quality
audio for the interview. The interview subject was advised that the interview would last
about ninety minutes. Making an interview last for longer than ninety minutes would be
David Mould, “Legal Issues,” in Catching Stories: A Practical Guide to Oral History (Athens: Swallow
Press, 2009), 67.
47
23
too tiring and “the focus and energy level may be lost.”48 However, each interview length
depended on how much the interview subject had to say when answering the interview
questions.
The interview location was determined by the interview subjects and each of the
interviews varied in location. The best location would be where the interview subjects
would be most comfortable, the sound quality could also be controlled, and interruptions
would not be an issue.49 Therefore, I advised each of the interview subjects to decide
where we should hold the interviews but emphasized that it needed to be a quiet place to
ensure the best sound quality. Four of the interview subjects chose to do the interview at
their place of employment and one was held in her home. The first interview was
conducted with Patrick Vang at Luther Burbank High School in his classroom on April
20, 2010. Mai Xi Lee’s interview on April 26th and Vince Xiong’s interview on May 27th
were held in their perspective offices at the schools. Dr. Benjamin NhaBee Herr’s
interview on April 30th was held at his chiropractor office. Dr. Judith Vue’s interview
was the only interview that was conducted at home.
There are many issues to consider in the setting of the interview. While the setting
in the interviews with Patrick Vang, Vince Xiong and Mai Xi Lee had very few
distractions, the setting in the interviews with Dr. Judith Vue and Dr. Benjamin Herr had
many distractions. Dr. Vue had the distractions of her children being in the house and Dr.
David Mould, “Interviewing,” in Catching Stories: A Practical Guide to Oral History (Athens: Swallow
Press, 2009), 102.
48
49
Sommer and Quinlan, The Oral History Manual, 52.
24
Herr had the distraction of a busy chiropractor’s office. I had to turn off the digital
recorder once so that Dr. Vue could ask her children to quiet down and in several
instances her children could be heard in the background. With Dr. Herr’s interview, I had
to stop and start the interview a few times as Dr. Herr was being paged to get back to his
patients. Both Dr. Vue and Dr. Herr chose a setting that they were both comfortable in
but turned out to have too many distractions. Ideally, the setting would not have
distractions or make the interview subjects uncomfortable.50 However, I learned that the
interviewer has to be patient and continue the interview as if uninterrupted to make the
interview subject as comfortable as possible.
To ensure that I took care of legal issues, I gave each of the interview subjects the
legal release forms to sign before the interviews began. Furthermore, I explained that the
interview would be a part my thesis project and later donated to the Department of
Special Collections and University Archives at California State University, Sacramento. I
advised that one copy of the original signed release form would be given to the archival
institution and the interview subject would receive a copy for their records. They were
also advised that a copy of the interview would be sent to them upon completion of the
thesis project.51
Digital recording was chosen to record all the interviews. During my interviews,
an Olympus digital recorder was used. Digital recording presents many advantages and
50
Ibid.
51
Ritchie, Doing Oral History, 109.
25
some interviewers have switched from traditional tape/analog recording due to these
advantages. Charles F. Ganzert in “Catching Sound and Light” in Catching Stories stated
that many professionals have switched to digital recording because of “the recording
fidelity, variety of recording options, ease of editing and mixing, flexibility of storage,
and list of playback and presentation options….”52 Another advantage is that recording
the interviews using a digital recorder assured that no interruptions would be needed in
the flow of the interview. At the end of each interview, the interviews can easily be
transferred to CD.
During each interview, I ensured that I build rapport with the interview subjects
prior to the interview and during the interview. I took time to introduce myself when I
arrived at the interview site. I asked the interview subjects before recording the
interviews to see if they have any questions and answered any questions or concerns that
they may have. Usually, the interview subjects enquired a little background information
about myself and my project before we started the interview. For example, during Patrick
Vang’s interview, I arrived at his classroom at Luther Burbank during his lunch break.
While Patrick was finishing his lunch, he wanted to know more about my project and the
interview questions. I explained to him about my project but advised that I could not give
him specific questions ahead of the interview. I advised him of the interview subjects
and ensured him that if he did not know specific dates or details that it would be okay. I
also answered questions that he had regarding my experience and education. After
Charles F. Ganzert, “Catching Sound and Light,” in Catching Stories: A Practical Guide to Oral History
(Athens: Swallow Press, 2009), 102.
52
26
addressing his concerns, he was more comfortable about the interview and we were able
to start building a good rapport during the interview. Another reason that I was able to
build rapport with all my interview subjects was my knowledge of both Hmong and
English.
Language could be a barrier to an oral history project, when conducting
interviews in an ethnic community project. However, language did not pose a problem
for me in conducting the interviews. Understanding the language helped me to build
rapport with them because they did not have to worry about which language they should
use. They were able to speak in the language that they were most comfortable in. I
conducted the interviews in English, because my knowledge of written and oral English
was superior to my knowledge of written and oral Hmong.
I did not discourage my interview subjects from speaking in Hmong. All of my
interview subjects switched back and forth between English and Hmong in the interviews
depending on what they were talking about. Patrick Vang, Mai Xi Lee, and Dr. Judith
Vue primarily spoke in English during the interview and only interjected Hmong words
in a few places in the interview for emphasis. However, Dr. Benjamin NhaBee Herr, and
Vince Xiong spoke for a significant portion of the interview in Hmong. As Susan K.
Burton in “Issues in Cross-cultural Interviewing: Japanese Women in England” in The
Oral History Reader states, it is “easier to speak freely in your native language. Your
vocabulary is wider, you don’t need to worry about whether your grammar is correct and
27
you can be confident that what you are saying what you mean to say.”53 Having the
freedom to answer the questions in either language allowed my interview subjects to
answer the questions without language being a hindrance to them and me during the
interview.
While conducting the interviews, I overcame nerves associated with the interview
process by using my knowledge of doing oral history. Initially, I was very nervous with
my first interview with Patrick Vang because this was the first interview. However, I
relied on my knowledge of oral history to ease me into the interview and complete it with
my nerves in check by making sure that the digital recorder was recording the interview,
keeping track of the questions, and listening to the interview subjects. Since the recording
device was digital, I just had to make sure that the recorder was turned on and that the
battery was not low. I tested the equipment before the interviews to ensure that it was still
working and there was going to be enough battery to last during the interview. I also
brought spare batteries with me in case the battery ran low. Also between questions, I
generally allowed adequate pauses. After they had answered the questions, I waited to see
if they had anything more to add before moving onto the next question. I tried to listen to
them carefully to ensure that if they had answered a question that I don’t ask them the
same question again. I was also keeping eye contact with the interview subjects to let
them know that they had my full attention.
Susan K. Burton, “Issues in Cross-cultural Interviewing,” in The Oral History Reader (New York:
Routledge, 2006), 168.
53
28
I learned conducting oral history interviews within the Hmong community
requires flexibility in both the location of the interview and the time of the interview. The
Hmong community feels most comfortable in a familiar setting such as the home or place
of business. This presents challenges in recording the interview. Furthermore, the
scheduled time of the interview may conflict with other obligations of the interview
subject. As the interviewer you need to respect the other obligations and allow for the
time adjustment. Language is an important factor. Hmong-Americans are comfortable
switching from English to Hmong and the interviewer needs to be aware of this to ensure
the dialog during the interview is not interpreted. As a Hmong-American I was able to
respond to the two languages used during the interview.
Producing Transcriptions
The fifth step was to transcribe the completed interviews to allow the oral history
project to be accessible to the researcher once deposited at the archival institution. As
pointed out by Donna M. DeBlasio’s “Transcribing” in Oral History in Catching Stories:
Practical Guide to Oral History, “…transcribing…is still the best way to reach the widest
audience possible.”54
I created a guide to use while transcribing. For each interview, a title page was
created with the interview subject, interview subject’s name, project name, interview
date, and context information. Punctuations were added to the transcripts based on
English grammar because it “adds clarity to the transcript.” False starts were eliminated
Donna M. DeBlasio, “Transcribing Oral History,” in Catching Stories: A Practical Guide to Oral History
(Athens: Swallow Press), 105.
54
29
unless they would change the meaning of the context of the interview. Any redundant
ums, ahs, uh-hum, etc. were eliminated. Translations of words from Hmong to English
were italicized. When the interview subject stated a word in English as well as in Hmong,
both the Hmong word and English words were transcribed. Some words that I could not
be written in English were phonetically spelled out, for example proper names. I spelled
Hmong words to the best my abilities or got assistance to spell the Hmong words due to
my limited skills in written Hmong.55 This allowed the transcript to “…reflect the tenor,
flavor, and character of the interview yet…still readable.”56
The adage that the transcription process took the longest to complete proved true.
Donald A. Ritchie suggests that it takes “an estimated six to eight hours to transcribe each
hour of interview.”57 Both Dr. Judith Vue and Mai Xi Lee’s transcriptions took as long as
Ritchie suggested while Patrick Vang’s interview took more time than he suggested. The
interview with Patrick Vang was one hour and four minutes and it took eleven hours to
transcribe. Patrick Vang’s transcription was completed first on August 31, 2010. Dr.
Judith Vue’s interview was approximately one hour and nine minutes but only took six
hours to transcribe. Dr. Vue’s transcription was completed on September 21, 2010. Even
though the interview length was similar Dr. Vue had more pauses and did not talk as fast
as Patrick Vang so their transcription lengths were different. Mai Xi Lee’s interview was
approximately two hours in length with sixteen hours being spent on transcription. Mai
55
Sommer and Quinlan, The Oral History Manual, 71.
Donna M. DeBlasio, “Transcribing Oral History,” in Catching Stories: A Practical Guide to Oral History
(Athens: Swallow Press), 106.
56
57
Ritchie, Doing Oral History, 65.
30
Xi Lee transcription was completed on April 30, 2011. Because her interview was the
longest interview in length compared to Patrick Vang and Dr. Judith Vue’s interviews,
the transcription process was longer for Mai Xi Lee’s interview.
Ideally, each interview would be transcribed, so that it would be easier access for
the researcher. Due to the time limitations, I was unable to transcribe all five interviews.58
The remaining interviews with Dr. Benjamin NhaBee Herr and Vince Xiong were not
transcribed but a finding guide was created to make the interviews accessible. By creating
the finding guides, a researcher interested in these two interviews would be able to get an
idea about the subjects of the interview and could then choose to listen to the audio
interview.
Donna M. DeBlasio, “Transcribing Oral History,” in Catching Stories: A Practical Guide to Oral History
(Athens: Swallow Press), 104-105.
58
31
Chapter 4
CONCLUSIONS
I had to perform many different roles with the Sacramento Hmong-American Oral
History Project. The project took over a year to complete. I first began working on the
project gathering research in January 2010 and did not complete the project until April
2011.
Even though this was a small scale project, the goal of creating a Sacramento
Hmong-American Oral History Project was successful. Being an insider to the Hmong
community has definite advantages by providing me with interview subjects that were
comfortable with talking to me during the interviews. If I was not an insider to the
Hmong community, some of the interview subjects might have been more reluctant to be
interview participants. Some interview subjects expressed to me that they wanted to be
interview subject for my project because they wanted to support members of the Hmong
Community and especially give support to those pursuing higher education. Furthermore,
because the interviews cover the sensitive issues like the “Secret War” in Laos, being an
a part of the Hmong-American community allowed the interview subjects to be more
comfortable in talking about their life history. They also felt comfortable to speak in
either English or Hmong because I could understand the language.
The interview subjects shared similar experiences. The interview subjects were
refugees from Laos, who had family members or relatives involved in the “Secret War”
in Laos. They all escaped Laos because their family felt that staying in Laos was no
32
longer an option. For example, Mai Xi Lee advised that she thought that they escaped
Laos because her mother “panic and needed to get [them] to safety.” All the interview
subjects experienced life in the refugee camps for a short period of time before they
and/or their family chose to migrate to a third country. Mai Xi Lee, Dr. Judith Vue, Dr.
NhaBee Herr, and Vince Xiong came directly to the United States. However, Patrick
Vang first migrated to France then decided to settle in the United States after visiting
family member in the United States.
All the interview subjects also shared similar experiences in the United States.
None of the interview subjects knew how to speak English upon arrival in the United
States. They experienced culture shock and struggled to learn the language. However,
hard work and perseverance allowed them to overcome the language barrier. Some
experienced discrimination while adjusting to life in the United States. For example, Mai
Xi Lee advised that she was taunted as a child and was called names such as “Chinks or
Cambodians” by the children at her elementary school. All the interview subjects chose
to go to post secondary institutions and graduated with degrees in their field of study.
Furthermore, they are successful in their field and involved in the Hmong community
organizations and events. The interview subjects have settled into the Sacramento region
and none would like to go back and live in Laos.
After recording these five interviews, I believed that a larger scale oral history
project would allow for a more diverse set of oral histories on the Hmong refugee
experience and assimilation into American culture. Because oral histories require a
33
significant amount of time to find interviews, hold interview sessions, and transcribe,
more staff and funds would be needed in order to have a successful larger scale project.
For example, having more interview subjects could document richer perspectives
regarding the refugee experience in Laos and Thailand. Most of the interviewees selected
for my project were very young when they were in Laos and did not recall much about
how life was like in Laos or about the “Secret War” in Laos. To get a more
comprehensive oral history of the Hmong community in Sacramento, more interviews
with different backgrounds, including the elderly, would need to be included in the
project.
34
APPENDIX 1
List of Interviews and Interviewee Information
1. Patrick Vang, teacher
2. Dr. Judith Vue, dentist
3. Mai Xee Lee, vice-principal
4. Dr. Benjamin NhaBee Her, chiropractor
5. Vince Xiong, vice-principle and acting-principal
35
APPENDIX 2
Sample Initial Contact Letter
[Date]
[Potential Interviewee Name]
[Potential Interviewee Address]
Dear [Potential Interviewee Name],
I am writing to introduce myself and to invite you to participate as an interviewee in the Sacramento
Hmong-American Oral History Project, which I am creating as my master’s thesis project. My name is
Payne Vang, and I am a graduate student in the Public History Master’s Program at Sacramento State
University. The oral history interviews I am conducting are designed to help document the history of the
region’s Hmong community.
The specific purpose of the project is to record the experiences of first-generation Hmong Americans who
have settled in the Sacramento region and have graduated from post secondary institution(s). The interview
will focus on your personal life experiences, including memories of experiences in Laos, the refugee camps
in Thailand, the decision to come to the United States, your education, and your experiences in the United
States. The Sacramento Hmong-American Oral History Project will give future generations important
insights into the Hmong refugee experience and assimilation into American society.
Our interview would last approximately an hour and be digitally recorded. You will be able to receive a
copy of the recorded interview once the project is completed. The original interviews and transcripts will
be deposited into an archival collection at the Department of Special Collections and University Archives at
California State University, Sacramento.
Your participation will be a valuable part of this project. I would be honored to have a chance to interview
you. I will call you sometime in the coming week to discuss the project. In the meantime, please do not
hesitate to contact me with questions or concerns at [my phone number] or via email at [my email
address]. You can also contact Professor Patrick Ettinger at [his phone number] for further information.
Thank you for your time and consideration.
Sincerely,
Payne Vang
Graduate Student
California State University, Sacramento
36
APPENDIX 3
Sample of Interview Questions
Questions for the Sacramento Hmong-American Oral History Project
I. Experiences in Laos
Let us begin by talking a bit about your background. Where and when were you born?
Do you have a Hmong name that you also go by?
What is your dialect?
Tell me a bit about your mother and father? When and where were they born?
How were your parents earning a living in Laos?
What memories do you have of Laos?
Did you attend school in Laos? If yes, describe that experience.
Were you or any of your family members involved in the Secret War in Laos? If so, how
were they involved?
How did the Secret War in Laos affect your family?
Please talk about when and why your family left Laos.
Describe the journey out of Laos for your family.
Was it a common decision to emigrate, or did some in the family resist to leaving Laos?
How many days did it take for your family to get to the refugee camps in Thailand?
Did you or your family leave with any expectation of returning back to Laos?
How did you/your parents feel about leaving Laos?
II. Experience in the Refugee camps/Decision to come to U.S.
Did anyone meet you and your family when you reached Thailand?
37
Which refugee camps did your family stay at and for how long at each camp?
What do you recall about life in the refugee camps?
How did your family receive refugee status?
Describe any help you received, if any, from refugee resettlement organizations after you
arrived?
While in the refugee camps, did some in the family resist to migrating to a new country?
III. Experience in the United States
Did you come directly to the United States? If not, please describe the route/journey that
you took. Where did you go first?
How did your family decide to come to the United States?
How did you travel to the United States?
What do you recall of that journey?
What things did you bring with you on the journey?
What specifically brought you to the United States? (e.g. family ties, job prospects,
asylum, etc.)
What were your impressions of the United States before you came here?
Who sponsored you and your family to come to the United States?
When and where did you arrive in the United States?
Did anyone meet you when you arrived?
What were your initial impressions of California/or city that you arrived in?
Did you know any English on arrival?
How did you begin to learn the English language?
Did you or your family have any difficulties adjusting to life in the United States when
you first arrived?
38
What was your economic condition on arrival?
Describe the help you received, if any, from refugee resettlement organizations after you
arrived.
How did you/your family begin to earn a living after you arrived?
What kind of problems did you/your family encounter when finding work or working?
Where there certain people or groups that made you feel unwelcome? If so, describe.
Overall, what were the most difficult aspects of the transition to life in the U.S.?
Did you pursue American citizenship? Why or why not? How soon after arrival?
Have you/your family return to visit Laos/Thailand? Why or why not?
Do you plan to or would like to return to live permanently in Laos?
Have you stayed in touch with anyone from your Laos/Thailand?
What do you think are some of the important ways immigration changed you and/or your
family?
I suppose the move may have had both positive and negative aspects for you. What are
some of the negative consequences of the move for you and your family?
What are some of the positive aspects of the move for you and your family?
What do you miss most about Laos/Thailand?
IV. Family Life
Can you tell me the names and birth years of your siblings?
Were some or all born in Laos/Thailand?
When and where did you begin school?
How did you fare in the classroom?
Where you active in school outside of the classroom?
39
What chores did you have as a child? What did your siblings do?
What interests or past times or favorite games did you have?
Who were your closest friends, or who did you play with?
Did your parents monitor or set rules about whom the children could play with?
What were your parents’ aspirations for you as you were growing up?
What were your own aspirations as a youth, say, in high school?
What did you do in high school?
How long did you continue to live at home?
What is your marital status?
Do you have any children? If yes, what are their names and birth years.
Describe how you raised your children.
What schools did they attend?
Do you want them to pursue higher education?
V. Sacramento Community
How did your family decide to settle in the Sacramento region ( if this was not your first
place of residence)?
Describe the local Hmong community at the time of arrival.
Was there a concentration or neighborhood of Hmong businesses somewhere in
Sacramento? If so, please describe some of them.
What is your religious practice?
What has the role in the church played in your life (if you are Christian/Catholic)?
What Hmong cultural traditions have been most important to you to retain?
What crafts or foods or holidays from your native culture are most essential to you?
40
What community events do you attend?
How important is it to you to have a strong Hmong cultural knowledge?
Describe any Hmong organizations you have you participated in.
VI. Higher Education and Current Life
What is the highest educational level that you have achieved?
Describe your higher education experience with the dates you attended college, your
major, and year that you received your degree.
What did you intend to do with your degree?
Why did you choose to get higher education?
How did your family feel about your choice to attend college?
Do you plan on furthering your educational experience at this time or in the future? If so,
what would you like to study and what degree would you like to achieve?
Did any of your siblings also attend college?
Where do you currently work at and what do you do?
Is there anything that we missed or you would like to add?
41
APPENDIX 4
Oral History Interview with Patrick Vang
42
43
44
Sacramento Hmong-American Oral History Project
Interview History for Oral History of
Patrick Vang
Interviewer’s Name: Payne Vang
Interview Date and Location: April 20, 2010; classroom of interviewee at Luther
Burbank High School, Sacramento, CA
Context Notes: Transcribing was performed by Payne Vang. Any redundant “uhs” or
“um” have been removed from the transcript. The school bell rang twice during the
interview making it hard to understand one of the questions that the interviewer was
asking the interviewee. Patrick Vang speaks White Hmong dialect. His father’s name is
Say Teng Vang. The interviewee spoke in both Hmong and English at certain times in the
interview. The Hmong words are italicized for emphasis; translations are provided where
necessary in brackets next to the Hmong words.
Tapes and Interview Records: The original digital recording of the interview is stored as a
CD and is being housed at Special Collections and University Archives in the Library at
California State University, Sacramento.
45
Transcript of the Interview
Payne: This is an interview with Patrick Vang, as a part of the Sacramento Hmong
American Oral History Project, my thesis project for the Public History Master’s
Program at California State University, Sacramento. The interview is conducted on April
20th, 2010 at Luther Burbank High School. I am Payne Vang. Let’s start with where you
were from and where you were born?
Patrick: I’m from Laos. I was born in northern Laos. Yes.
Payne: Uh, what was the city that you were born in?
Patrick: I was born in what was called the Luang Prabang. Luang Prabang in northern
Laos. Yes.
Payne: Okay. What year were you born?
Patrick: I was born in, um, I don’t know exactly what year, you know. My parents they
don’t know how to read and write. So they say that it’s around 1969…around 1968 or
1969. On my paper legally it’s 1969.
Payne: Okay, um. Do you have a Hmong name that you also go by besides Patrick?
Patrick: Yes. My mom and dad give me the Hmong name for when you know, and
culturally when you are born they give you a name. And then they do a spiritual
ceremony and they called me Txim.
46
Payne: Txim.
Patrick: Txim. Yeah.
Payne: Is Patrick your legal name now?
Patrick: Yes, Patrick is my legal name.
Payne: Tell me a bit about your mother and your father? When and where were they
born?
Patrick: I don’t know exactly where they [were] born but my dad was a superior [who]
worked for the Lao government for the CIA. He was, I don’t know how to explain it but
under him he has 12 mayors under him so in Hmong [it is what] they called tasseng. He
has a pretty high government job in Laos. My mom…I don’t know much about my
mom…Her name is called Joua Thao. Yeah.
Payne: Oh. How were your parents earning a living in Laos?
Patrick: My dad, he…when people come to him like, you know, in Laos they don’t have
a court system for the Hmong people so he is serving as the person who take care of the
community. A lot of people come to him to, for to solve problems, usually people will
bring him rice and bring him money and things for him. At the same time they do
rice…like farming for a living.
Payne: Okay. What memories do you have of Laos? Do you remember anything?
47
Patrick: I remember a little bit when we first came to Thailand. I remember that one day
in the morning that we have about 15 soldiers, Hmong Vietnamese soldiers that came and
tell us that if we wanted to leave that you can leave now, otherwise we won’t let you
leave anymore because not legal anymore…so when you leave now we won’t cause you
any trouble. That’s why my clan and my family, everybody pack and left Laos.
Payne: At the time that you were leaving Laos…the Hmong Vietnamese soldiers were
telling you?
Patrick: Yes
Payne: Did you get to attend school in Laos?
Patrick: Yes, I think about six months. About six months only, yes. My teacher is also
still living in Stockton.
Payne: He is also living in the United States?
Patrick: Yes. He is also here in the United States.
Payne: What do you remember about that experience?
Patrick: Well, I remember that it was very structured. The teacher has a very powerful
role. Different than what we do in here. Everything you have to do, according to what the
teacher says, you know, otherwise they punish you. I remember one time me and my
friend and us, we went to go pick up some wild fruit to eat and we came late and they
punished us to run all over the village for a few times.
48
Payne: Oh. Were there a lot of kids that were in your village that attended school, too?
Patrick: Yes, I remember that there were 20. But none of them were girls, they were all
males. Because the Hmong believe that the girls are not important in the family; they
grow up and get marry and go to the other side of the family. So they rather let the boys
go to school.
Payne: Right…. So, you said your dad, he was a…was he a soldier in the CIA as a part
of….
Patrick: He is not a soldier. His role is not a soldier but my brothers they were soldiers.
Yeah. My dad it’s a role that the Lao government give him the power to do that. I don’t
know, in the U.S. you don’t have the system. But in Laos, he’s the guy that under him he
has 12 mayors that he controls. I’ll say not the government right now, not that kind.
Payne: How were your family members involved in the Secret War in Laos?
Patrick: My brothers. My two other brothers were involved in the Secret War. My brother
living in Sacramento, he was a soldier for quite a few years. Most of my cousins, uncles,
clans were a part of the CIA.
Payne: They were all a part of that. Did all of them survive? Your immediate family
members?
Patrick: Most of them survived. But, I would say three or four passed away.
Payne: Please talk about when and why your family left Laos?
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Patrick: I think we left in 1975, end of 1975/1976. So we decide to, like I said to you, that
right after the Hmong Vietnamese soldiers came to talk to us, the mayor..you know, in
Laos everybody listen to the mayor so the mayor said that we have to leave and we left
Laos and all we need is walking through the jungle for a week through the jungle to
Thailand. And we have the medium of the people were walking in the middle and ahead
of us is the soldiers, behind is soldiers also…soldiers meaning our cousins that were
involved in the CIA soldiers; they have weapons. They have all these, you know, to
defend to make sure nothing happens to the families because it is not only involved with
my clan but involved with the Yang, Lee, and the Thao clan too.
Payne: Do you know how many families together?
Patrick: I was too little. I don’t know. All I know is that it was like a dream for me. I
can’t walk and sometimes my brothers they carry me. I would say I was about 6 or 7 at
the time?
Payne: Did you have any brothers or sisters? I mean, how many brothers or sisters did
you have?
Patrick: My family is kinda complicated. [laughs] I have four brothers. But my real
brother with me, I have one brother but the other three is half-brothers. I have two sisters.
Payne: Three half-brothers…Two sisters. Did they all come with you on the journey?
Patrick: Yes, most of them come but one come to France. But we’ll talk about that later
on.
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Payne: Yeah, we’ll talk about that later on. Did you remember anything else about the
journey of coming out of Laos into Thailand? Did you have to cross the Mekong River?
Patrick: No, we didn’t have to cross the Mekong River because if you see the geography
of Laos, we live on the other side of the Mekong River. So we don’t have to cross, we
crossed before that. You know. We had to walk through the jungle about seven days to
come into Thailand but luckily we didn’t cross the Mekong River. You asked the
question about did I remember anything. I remember of climbing mountains and rivers,
all this and it was rainy season. It was very, very hard for us. I saw people that on the way
that [were] sick and people that don’t have anything to eat. I actually see a person that
passed away and they did not bury him. They just put him on the side and cover him
with something. My brother told me not to look at him.
Payne: Did you guys only walk at night time or did you walk during the day and night
time?
Patrick: Through the day. [At] night time we rest because it was not war time at that time.
It was legal for us to come because they gave the permission. After us then they have to
come at night only.
Payne: Oh, then you guys left at the right time.
Patrick: Yes, at the right time.
Payne: What did you guys bring with you? Do you remember? On that trip?
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Patrick: I don’t remember but I think that all they bring is money, a little bit of rice and
then clothing. Nothing else, because no way you can carry your animals all day. You left
behind everything. You only bring the necessary, the thing that you had to have.
Payne: Did you and your family leave with any expectation of returning back to Laos?
Patrick: I don’t know. All we know is that General Vang Pao went to Thailand.
Everybody want to follow him. Everybody went to Thailand. We know that Laos has
become communist and we all our lives we don’t get along with the Communist that is
why we left. I don’t think that they expect to return to Laos soon.
Payne: Did anybody meet you or your family when you reached Thailand?
Patrick: Did you mean anybody meet, when you say the people…do you mean the Thai
people?
Payne: Yeah, it could be the Thai people or did you have family that....
Patrick: No, our cousins were soldiers too and they have weapons. When we reached the
Thai borders, they sent a lot of soldiers and they collect the weapons. But in there was
life in there was very, very hard. We went through so much struggle and I’m sure that
you will ask more about that.
Payne: Yes. I forgot to ask but what was the last village that you were in?
Patrick: It is called Naaj Nyas.
Payne: Naaj Nyas.
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Patrick: Naaj Nyas. It is the village, yeah. It’s in the region of Sayaboury.
Payne: Is it in Northern Laos?
Patrick: It is in the central of Laos, west close to Thailand.
Payne: Which refugee camps did you stay at and for how long at each camp?
Patrick: I stayed at the refugee camp called Sob Tuang [sp?] close to Nan and I stayed
about five years. About five years I was there and that was the only refugee camp that I
stayed.
Payne: What do you recall about life in the refugee camps?
Patrick: Like, I said to you, I was about eight to ten and I remember almost everything. I
remember going to school and learning English a little bit. But I think the hardest part
that I remember is that when we first came there we didn’t have food to eat. UN sent us
food for us to eat but the Thai was very, very rude to us. Instead of giving food to us, they
sell to the Hmong people. They sold to the Hmong people so at the beginning we had
money to buy but after a few months, you know, everybody was starving. Everybody
was starving. I remember we have nothing to eat. And sometime I rather go with
my...you know, Hmong people, they were very scare of the jungle. A lot time I prefer to
go with my brother to go to the jungle. Because that camp is not a fenced camp; it’s an
open camp. So we can actually go to the jungle and then out there we can find any food
that we want to eat. [school bell is ringing in the background] We can kill any wild
animal. So I was more happy living in the jungle than in the camp because for about a
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year we didn’t have anything to eat. We have a few thing to eat but you have to buy only.
After that the Thai couldn’t do that anymore, because if they keep doing that maybe UN
might know. After that we were able to get good food and able to get enough to eat. But
before that everybody were hungry.
Payne: How did your family received refugee status?
Patrick: How did my we received refugee status? I don’t know about that but because we
are refugees. Maybe because they consider us refugees. [laughs] To know exactly how
maybe because my mom, our family, our cousins fought for the CIA. We don’t have a
country and that is why we come to Thailand as a refuge. That’s why I think. [laughs]
Payne: Describe any help you received from refugee resettlement organizations after you
arrived when you were in the camp?
Patrick: At first like I said to you, we didn’t receive anything then after that rice start to
come. Meat start to come. Fish start to come. We have vegetable. These are the things
that we have but we didn’t have any clothing. No clothing. So the necessary thing that
you won’t die, we have that. In our camp they don’t build house for us. We have to do it
for ourselves, too. Contrary in [Ban] Vinai and other camp, they come and build you
houses. They give you things but in our camp it is a little bit different.
Payne: Did you have any family in the United States or in another country at that time
that were sending you money to help you and your family?
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Patrick: My uncle went to France in 1976. They were the first people to go to France.
Yes. After that they sent a little bit of money for us, too. That helped a little bit too.
Payne: When you were in the refugee camp, did some in the family resist to migrating to
a different country?
Patrick: Yeah. My clan, I call the Vang clan, we all split all over the world. A few stay…I
think one or two stay in Laos, few in Thailand, half live in France, about eight or ten
family live in Canada. Most of the people live in the U.S.
Payne: How about your immediate family?
Patrick: Like my brother and all this?
Payne: Yes, your brothers and your parents.
Patrick: I forgot to mention here that my dad passed away a long time already when I was
only three days. The communist took him away because he worked for the high rank
government. But my immediate family, I have two brothers living in France. Me and my
brother live in Sacramento. One live in Oregon, and my two other sisters live in
Wisconsin. My mother passed away.
Payne: When did she pass away?
Patrick: She passed away here, I think in 2006, I believe.
Payne: Did you come directly to the United States?
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Patrick: No, I went to…because my brother went to France. So I went to France with my
other brother. I went to France and I live about ten years in France and then I came to the
U.S.
Payne: What were you able to take from the camp to go to Thailand?
Patrick: Say that again?
Payne: From when you were in the camp, on your journey to go to France, what were you
able to take with you?
Patrick: I don’t remember but we didn’t take anything because we have nothing to take
anyway. [laughs] The only thing is our clothing and a little bit of money that my brother
sent to us. But we didn’t go as a family but we go as two orphans. They consider us
orphans because my brother he was only 12 and I was about only 9 or 10. So we were
two little kids.
Payne: Only the two of you guys?
Patrick: Only the two little kids. My other brother already been in France.
Payne: Did he sponsor the two of you?
Patrick: Yes, he sponsor us.
Payne: How did you decide to come to the United States from there?
Patrick: You know, I decide to come to the United States for many reasons. One is
because I believe that my dad was working for the CIA. He died because of the U.S.
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That’s why I think that I deserve to come to the U.S. Another thing is that the situation in
France, the job discrimination, education discrimination is very hard in France. I came to
visit the U.S. and I see that there is more opportunity here. It is the land of opportunity.
The third reason is because my mom live in the U.S. They came straight to the U.S. My
brother live in the U.S. too. That’s why I decide not to go back to France anymore.
Payne: What year did you go to France?
Patrick: In 1982. Actually, in 1980.
Payne: Okay, and then...
Patrick: In 1991. I came to the U.S.
Payne: What city in France did you land in?
Patrick: I landed in Paris. I stayed for about 15 days then I went to the south of France. It
is called Carcassone. I live about two months then moved to a different city too. Then
about a year after that we moved to Normandy. If you remember the history of the U.S.
the D-day, Normandy. I live about 9 years over there.
Payne: Nine years?
Patrick: Nine years.
Payne: Then in 1992, you came to the United States?
Patrick: 1991.
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Payne: What city did you come to?
Patrick: I came straight to Stockton. My brother lived in Stockton. At that time, my mom
lived in Fresno. But I stayed with my brother because my mom she remarried so in the
Hmong culture you are supposed to stay with your brother.
Payne: What do you recall of the journey from France to the United States? [The school
bell is ringing when I am asking this question and the question cannot be heard over the
bell in the audio.]
Patrick: I was about 19 years old so I work about 6 months to earn enough money to buy
plane ticket for me. I purchase plane ticket for me and just come. The journey was much
easier. It was not easy as the leaving.
Payne: What things did you bring with you on that journey?
Patrick: I remember my clothing, money, my passport. I am a teenager and I don’t have a
lot of things. I don’t have a family. Basically, a few clothing and that’s it.
Payne: What specifically brought you to the United States? Was it because of your mom?
Patrick: Yes. As a child, even though my mom remarried. I still miss her a lot and I
wanted to see her and live close to her. Like I said to you earlier there was all these ideas
prior to that.
Payne: When did she get remarried?
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Patrick: I don’t remember exactly but they tell me that right after my dad passed away.
Maybe about a year or two years after that. She remarried so I had to stay with my uncle.
Payne: So when you came on that journey to Thailand, you came with your uncle?
Patrick: Yeah.
Payne: Did your mom also come?
Patrick: Yes, my mom she was also with that group but I don’t walk with her. I don’t stay
with her. [I was with] a different family. I was supposed to stay with my own clan; with
my own family. We were in separate route.
Payne: Oh, okay. What were your impressions of the United States before you came
here?
Patrick: I don’t know much about the United States before I came here. I heard about the
United States that it’s a very powerful country. But to be honest with you know, when
you are young, you don’t know much about that. The only thing that you know is that the
U.S. is the most powerful country in the world. It is popular because of Michael Jackson,
because of all the singers; everything on TV is about the U.S. and that is why I came.
Payne: So…let’s see. Is it your brother then that sponsor you to come to the United States
or how did you…?
Patrick: Yes and no. I will say that I came here as a tourist only. And then I came and I
observe. I do a little bit of study. Research a little bit. Look around my Hmong people,
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you know, I see that hey, we have Hmong people working in office, Hmong people
working as a lawyer, Hmong people working as a professional, in government fields. In
France you don’t see that. You don’t see that. All the government jobs will belong to the
French people. The Hmong people all they do is in the company; doing the dirty jobs. So
I am thinking to myself, I don’t want my life to end up the same thing like the people in
France. I was thinking that if I stayed in here I might have a chance.
Payne: Did anyone meet you at the airport when you arrived at the airport?
Patrick: Yes, my brother came to pick me up.
Payne: What where your initial impression of Stockton?
Patrick: I think that it was a good town. It has a lot of my family. A loving town. I don’t
know much about other communities but the Hmong community is very supportive. My
clan was very happy to see me and I was very happy to see them, too. Everybody smile
and it’s good. I remember almost every afternoon we go to the park and we played
soccer. We did a lot of sports. It was fun.
Payne: Did you know any English on arrival?
Patrick: Yes, a little bit. But I didn’t speak at all. Because in French education you have
to, I think in fourth or sixth grade, you have to take English. We have to take it. So I took
English for about 6 years in France already. I know how to read but I don’t really
understand. Speaking I don’t really get it but because of that opportunity learning English
over there, I came to the U.S. I learned English pretty fast.
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Payne: How did you begin to learn the English language?
Patrick: I first went to adult school but I attend for a week and I think it was a waste of
my time. Because I know what they do over there so I went straight to Delta College.
Payne: Did you have any problems adjusting to life in the United States?
Patrick: Yes. Especially because of the language. It was a little bit hard for me to learn
English. Actually not that hard but I wanted to learn very fast. But you know our mind
takes time to learn English. I struggle as I went to college. As time went by I study a lot
and it went exactly the way that I expect it to go.
Payne: What was your economic situation on arrival?
Patrick: All I have is a thousand dollars. I don’t have any job and I don’t anything. I
depend on my brother for lodging so I stay with him. I don’t have to pay for any rent. I
don’t have to pay for any food. It was very helpful. Always a place to stay.
Payne: Describe the help you receive from any refugee resettlement organizations after
you arrive. Did you receive any?
Patrick: In here?
Payne: Yes.
Patrick: No, because I was a French citizen. I was a tourist. I was not a refugee status.
Payne: When you came?
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Patrick: Yes.
Payne: How did you begin to earn a living after you arrived?
Patrick: Like I said to you, I didn’t earn a living I depend on my mom, my brother, my
relatives to give me money. Hundred times my relatives when they see me they give me
money. All I do is focus on my education.
Payne: Were there certain people or groups that made you feel unwelcome?
Patrick: At that time not really because in Stockton we have a lot of Hmong people. Most
of the time I hang around with the Hmong people. So I don’t have opportunity to live
with the Caucasian or other race so I don’t know.
Payne: Overall, what were the most difficult transition to life in the United States?
Patrick: I think for me it’s the culture shock. For me it is a little bit different then for
people who came directly from Thailand because I grew up in France. I have a homesick
leaving from France. [In] France I have people, I have my brother over there. The hardest
for me is homesick of the ten years that I live in France, you know. The transition to the
U.S. is good but you have all these friends over there. You come here you don’t have a
lot of friends. You go to school and sometimes school is hard. The hardest thing for me is
homesickness of France.
Payne: Did you pursue American citizenship? Why or why not? And how soon after you
arrived?
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Patrick: No, I did not pursue because I did not have the opportunity. I will say after seven
years, I married my wife, then I had the opportunity to apply for my green card then for
my citizenship.
Payne: How long ago do you think?
Patrick: I will say about ten years.
Payne: Have you or your family returned to visit Laos or Thailand? Why or why not?
Patrick: Yes, not Laos but I took my students to visit Thailand. I took two groups of
students. One in 2005 and one in 2009. We went and visit Thailand and visit the Hmong
village. I want to show to them that this is what we talk about. This is the poor life in
Thailand. Not that poor as we used to be but in reality this is the way it is. We had a lot of
fun. I think it is a very good field trip that a lot of kids will remember. Once in a life time
field trip for them. Yeah, so I went back twice.
Payne: Do you plan or would like to return to live permanently in Laos?
Patrick: No, I don’t think so. Not because…Maybe because of the political thing. Another
thing is I don’t we would be able to live in Laos because of the life that we have in here.
Laos would not be able to provide this kind of lifestyle. I think that visit yes, but
permanently living there I don’t that we would be able to. Maybe the old people yes but
not us.
Payne: Do you or have you stayed in touch with anyone that is still living in Laos or
Thailand?
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Patrick: Not in Laos but in Thailand, yes. I still have an uncle and three or four nephews .
From time to time we email each other and call each other.
Payne: What do you think are some of the important ways that immigration changed you
or your family?
Patrick: The things that immigration changed me, you mean in this country?
Payne: Yes, through all your experiences of immigrating to different countries.
Patrick: I learned that adaptation is the key to survive. Whatever you go you,
adaption…you have to adapt to that country. You have to learn to learn to live it and you
have to fight for it and want it to your life. If you don’t want to, you know, be like the
majority of the people then you won’t go nowhere. You have to want your life. You have
to fight for it and that how I see. Adaption and at the same time we lose a lot of our
culture and language. We lose a lot of who we are and I think that is part of migration.
Payne: I suppose the move may have both positive and negative aspects for you. What
are some of the negative consequences of the move for you and your family?
Patrick: Can you repeat that again?
Payne: Yes, I suppose the move may have both positive and negative aspects for you.
What are some of the negative consequences of the move for you and your family?
Patrick: I think the negative thing is because we used to live in Laos and we used to live
close together as a clan family. In a matter of about five to ten years, everybody is spread
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around the world. We no longer love each other as we used to be. You know, care for
each other and that is a negative thing. Like I said to you, you know, not only me, but all
the Hmong people we lose a lot of our culture, our language, our heritage and we have to
adapt to something else. The good thing is that we come to this country we have the
opportunity to go to school and become a productive person in society. A lot of Hmong
people become a professional and that is good that we have a chance to, you know,
become who we are, to become just like everybody else.
Payne: What do you miss most about Laos or Thailand? Is there anything that you missed
over there?
Patrick: What I miss… I don’t want to talk about Laos because I cannot remember
anything about Laos. But Thailand, even though we live in the refugee camp and it was a
harsh time, I still miss the time as a kid when I was young playing with my friends. All
this, I still miss the refugee camp because I think that it is human nature to think about
your past when you’re young. You plan that and You still want to go back and see what
happen, you know. Even though it is bad memory, but still it’s one of them.
Payne: Can you tell me the names and the birth years of your siblings?
Patrick: My brother name is…the oldest name is Tong Seng Vang; the next one is Chong
Yia; the other one is Lee Fong.
Payne: Are you the youngest?
Patrick: No, I am second to the youngest. There are two sisters younger than me.
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Payne: So you are the youngest son?
Patrick: Second to youngest. But to my dad I am the youngest. Like I told you, my family
is complicated. It’s very complicated.
Payne: Were some or all of you born in Laos?
Patrick: Most of us born in Laos. I have…my other half brother is born in Thailand. My
sister was also born in Thailand.
Payne: They were born in the camp?
Patrick: Yeah, in the camp
Payne: When and where did you begin school? You were in France when you begin
school?
Patrick: Yeah, when we went to France I went straight to school.
Payne: You also went to school in the camp? Was there a school in the camp?
Patrick: Yeah, in the camp there was school. I attend Thai school in the camp, too.
Payne: How did you fare in the classroom?
Patrick: How did I fail?
Payne: Fare. How did you do?
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Patrick: In Thailand I didn’t fear anything because all this Hmong kids. But I remember
in France one thing that struggle me the most is the language. It is so hard to learn and
not to able to understand what people say and not to be able to play with [them] because
of the language. It was very, very complicated and very hard for me. After a year or two
years it was hard on me. A lot of people make fun of you, too because you don’t speak
the language [and] whatever they say you don’t understand. So it is pretty hard. Inside
you have an anger of yourself, why [and] how come I don’t understand that, you know.
Payne: Right. Were you active in school outside of the classroom?
Patrick: Yes, I was. My uncle was pretty strict about school so I was always go to school
and I never ditched a day of school. I always did my homework. School is a part of our
life and [it was] important.
Payne: Did you have like soccer or?
Patrick: Yeah, I did a lot of activity. In France everyone played soccer so I played soccer
in the afternoon. On the weekend I always had a game to go. I was a very busy kid.
Compare to my students here, they don’t have anything to do. That is why they become
involve in gangs and other thing they watch too much T.V. and play too much games.
Not in my time. My time is very busy. I played volleyball and soccer so I was always
gone. During the summer time we don’t stay home. My uncle always send me to a camp
like 3 or 4 week camp.
Payne: Summer camp?
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Patrick: Summer camp, so I had a lot of fun. It was fun.
Payne: What chores did you have as a child and did your siblings do?
Patrick: Yes, I do. I have a chore. Like I said to you, I did not have a mom or dad and part
of my job is I have to help around. I know that they want me to help around, too. When
you don’t have a mom or dad, you don’t have a choice. So my brother and I, we rotate to
do dishes.
Payne: What interests or past times or favorite games did you have?
Patrick: Game, do you mean game in the house or?
Payne: Any type of game….
Patrick: In the Thai refugee camp we don’t have a lot of games. We were so poor that we
did not have a game. We used to play Hmong game like jumping rope, playing the top
spin, tuj lub. I don’t have a favorite game.
Payne: Who were your closest friends or who did you play with
Patrick: One of my close friend, he is now a teacher in Stockton. His name is Chong
Yang. He is one of my closest friend. I was able to share my personal problems and my
personal issues to him. It’s good to have a friend like that.
Payne: Did your, not your parents, but did your uncle monitor or set rules about the
children that you could play with?
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Patrick: Ah, yes and no. because in France we are too busy and we don’t have a lot of
time to go play around with other people because we go to school in the morning and we
come home about 4 or 5 then we eat and then do homework and then that’s about it. On
the weekend, like I said to you, I was out with my soccer team. I was very busy but I do
have friends but my Hmong friends we do kick around too. [laughs]
Payne: What were your uncle’s aspirations for you as you were growing up?
Patrick: I think he was a very good man. Probably one of the most generous person in
the world. God only sent only a few people to earth and he was one of them. I was very
fortunate to have him to raise me. He has always preach us to be good people to do good
in school and save money to become productive people in society. Even though he
doesn’t say much at that time, I didn’t realize but now I realize that what he done make a
lot of sense. The way that he sent us to the camp and the way he put me into the soccer
games. All these right now as a parent make a lot sense. He also sometimes send me
personal tutor to tutor me in the room. All of these makes a lot of sense to me. He made a
difference in my life.
Payne: What were your own aspirations for yourself when you were young, say like
when you were in high school?
Patrick: To be honest, in high school I did not have a goal. I love to play music. Love to
be singer. In each generation we have our own style. As a child, as a teenager, I wanted to
be a singer. I wanted to be all this but I didn’t have a chance to do those. But I always
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know that I wanted to be somebody. I want to be somebody. It was not until I came to the
U.S. that I knew what I wanted to be.
Payne: I see. When you came here what did you…?
Patrick: It was amazing when I came here I wanted to go back to France too but I thought
about it like the Hmong people say, “rau ncoo xav mam hais yom.” I sleep, I don’t sleep
and I think about my life where my life is going to end. Am I going back to France and
work in the factory or stay in here? I thought about it and I put the negative and positive
about what I can become in this country. And then I decided to stay and pursue an
education. I wanted to be a French teacher because it was the only language that I know
and that I am good at. You know when you go to school, you have to look at how good
you are, right? I’m not great at math, not great at computer science, not great at English. I
can become a French teacher, yes. I speak French. That’s why I studied French.
Payne: When you went to Delta College, you studied French?
Patrick: I didn’t study over there because I know all the course over there is just too easy
for me. So what I do was, I did the transfer course only. It’s until I went to Sac State I
took some French classes. But most of the class, I just challenge them.
Payne: You just challenge them so you didn’t have to take them?
Patrick: Yeah, yeah.
Payne: How long did you continue to live with your brother?
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Patrick: I live with him about eight years in Stockton; about six, seven years.
Payne: What is your current marital status? Are you currently married?
Patrick: Married with three children.
Payne: Okay. What are their names and birth years?
Patrick: Our daughters, the first one her name is Lori. I mean Lily Npaub Vaj, the other
one is Lori Nkauj Hli, the last one is Peyton Suab Yag Vaj.
Payne: Three daughters?
Patrick: Two daughters and one son. Three weeks old.
Payne: The youngest is only three weeks old?
Patrick: Yes.
Payne: Congratulations.
Patrick: Yes. Thank you. [laughs]
Payne: What is your wife’s name?
Patrick: Her name is Lisa.
Payne: Lisa. What’s her last name?
Patrick: Xiong but she’s Vang.
Payne: She’s a Vang now?
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Patrick: Yeah. [laughs]
Payne: Describe how you’re raising your children.
Patrick: Well, you know. I am very fortunate I marry a person that is very educated too.
She got her master’s in Social Work and she work for the Mercy Home Health. In terms
of raising, we try to do our best to raise them as much as we can. We try to have a study
habit at home. We try to put a schedule for them, this time you need to study, this time
they need to sleep, this time you need to do your homework. We try to limit their games.
At the same time we try to expose them as much as they can to the society but we are
trying our best to raise them with all the opportunity that they can have.
Payne: What schools are your children going to?
Patrick: They go to Franklin Elementary School.
Payne: Do you want them to pursue higher education?
Patrick: Oh yes, of course. Definitely, yes. I think like I say to some of my friends, this
country is only built for the educated people only. If you don’t have an education, I don’t
think it is good to be in this country. They must pursue a higher education, not only to be
a teacher but to be a doctor or whatever it is. Yes.
Payne: How did you decide to settle here in Sacramento?
Patrick: Because I came to Sac State in ’94 and then I graduate in ’97 and I decide to stay
because I have a job in here.
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Payne: Describe a little bit about the Hmong community at the time that you arrived. Was
there a large Hmong community in Stockton?
Patrick: In Stockton. Yes, there was a large Hmong community. I think that it was larger
then. Because of the jobless town they moved to different city but at that time there was a
lot of Hmong people. The reason why I said that is because I remember the New Year
that we had then there was a lot Hmong people. So the Hmong community was
pretty…big group, a lot of support. The Hmong people were very into themselves
because any time there is a wedding, anytime there is a whatever it is, everyone come
together. It was a very supportive community.
Payne: What did you think of the Hmong community here in Sacramento compared to
Stockton?
Patrick: I think that whatever we go, the Hmong community is almost the same. Now-aday it is a little bit different. Now-a-day because most of the elders, the first generations,
a lot of them passed away and a lot of things would change. The young kids nowadays
are a little bit more Americanized and they don’t attend Hmong New Year, not a lot.
When there’s a wedding they don’t go much and if they go really quick and they just
come back. The culture change and we have to in order for us to survive. Culture change
and everything change. I am not saying that we have to throw away everything that we
have but it’s part of society. A lot of time society change us.
Payne: Was there a concentration or neighborhood of Hmong businesses here in
Sacramento or in Stockton?
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Patrick: In terms of businesses, I don’t think that Hmong people were able to compete
with the Vietnamese and the Chinese. There’s a few Hmoob...taj laj Hmoob, Hmong
market. We don’t have any Hmong restaurants in here. We used to have one but they
quit. Not that but in terms of concentrate of community, we have a big Hmong
community in Detroit, a big community in the North side, and surrounding the south side
there are a lot of Hmong people in there too. That’s why in this school, like I said to you,
we have about an average 25% of student population; Hmong student population in here.
It’s one of the most in California and even maybe in the nation.
Payne: Oh wow, here at Luther Burbank?
Patrick: Yeah.
Payne: So there is a large concentration of Hmong in this area?
Patrick: Yeah and there’s a bunch of business. We have a few doctors, one lawyer but
we’re getting there.
Payne: What are some of the names of the Hmong stores?
Patrick: One is called Long Cheng, it’s name after the Long Cheng in the very famous
Hmong city in Laos. You heard about Long Cheng. The other one is called B & S and
one down to Franklin is called Lor Markert. The other one on the south side on Florin Rd
and Meadowview is called Muong Pheng. Maybe in the north there are a few there too.
Payne: What is your current religious practice?
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Patrick: I’m a Christian right now.
Payne: You’re a Christian.
Patrick: Since I came to the U.S. my brother, he’s a Christian so I am a Christian right
now.
Payne: What has the role in the church played in your life?
Patrick: I think that church role play a good part of my life because it replaced the old
tradition. Any time that I have a problem I can called them to my house and pray for me.
A lot of time whenever I have a problem they come help me. It’s like a new family to me
so it plays a good role in sense of helping. [It] make me feel that I am not alone. Even
though my clan is all over the place, all over the world, I can actually depend on the
church that if something happen to me or something happen to my brother whatever they
can come take care of that.
Payne: What church do you go to?
Patrick: I went to the Hmong CMA church
Payne: Here in Sacramento?
Patrick: Here in Sacramento. Hmong Alliance Church here in Sacramento.
Payne: Okay.
Patrick: The church in Elk Grove.
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Payne: Oh, you go to the one in Elk Grove?
Patrick: Yeah.
Payne: The Hmong Alliance Church in Elk Grove?
Patrick: Yeah.
Payne: What Hmong cultural traditions have been most important for you to retain?
Patrick: I think Hmong culture, all of them are important to me. Even though I am a
Christian, I still very honor our tradition. Like when people do Shaman, when people do
spiritual ceremony, when they have the New Year, all these traditions I still respect of
them because these things make who we are. Without them I don’t know who we are. So
for me they are all important to me.
Payne: What craft, food, or holidays are essential to you that is Hmong?
Patrick: For me the important holiday for me is the Hmong New Year. As you can see
now that Hmong does not have a lot of holidays and one of the few, I will say the only
one, and that is important to me because it is the only time that you can see people
actually wear Hmong clothes, see who, where we are. I think that is good and I think we
should keep this as long as we can.
Payne: Right. Is there any Hmong community events that you attend?
Patrick: I attend to whenever they call me when we have some important meeting about
the community, if they call me then I attend. For example, I don’t know if you heard
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about the charter school, when they just started they call me and I have to attend. I was a
part of that a little bit too. I try to get involved in the community because I think it is
important for us as professional to involved in the community to show to them that we
care about them. A lot of time they look at us as an important people too.
Payne: Right. Okay. How important is it to you to have a strong Hmong cultural
knowledge or identity?
Patrick: I think that it is extremely important because it tells who we are. Like I said to
my students, you know, no matter how much you want to change we are not changing.
You can change your thought, we can change your mind but your skin you would not be
able to change. I think that language, people is a gift from God and we better keep it
because God does not give a lot of gift to people. I think that it [is] extremely important
to keep who we are and to know who we are. On that pretty soon I don’t think that it is
good for a person to claim that he or she is Hmong and doesn’t speak any Hmong,
doesn’t know anything about Hmong, doesn’t know any history. Just the name for me is
not important but you got to when you claim that you are Hmong, know a little bit about
who you are too. That’s what I said.
Payne: Are you a part of any Hmong organizations?
Patrick: Yes, I used to be part of the Lao Family a little bit but there is no more Lao
Family so I stopped. Whenever I used to be, there was an Asian Advancement a long
time ago, I used to get involved in that too but there is no more too.
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Payne: What time period where you involved with the Lao Family?
Patrick: I am not actually involved as a board. I was a member only to go see what kind
of business they come up. It is just a learning process for me. Yeah. That was a long time
ago.
Payne: You don’t remember? [laughs]
Patrick: [laughs] To be honest with you, I was involved with so many activities in the
Hmong community that sometime you forgot like when you attend the funeral right, you
attend so many funeral you don’t know which one from which one.
Payne: Right, that’s true. What is the highest educational level that you have achieved?
Patrick: I have a bachelor in French then I pursue a teaching credential; it’s equivalent to
a master’s degree.
Payne: Ok. Describe your higher education experience with the dates that you attended
college, your major and the year that you received your degree.
Patrick: I start to go to Delta College in, I think, ’92. In two years I was able to finish my
requirements so I transfer to Sac State in ’94 and then I graduate [with] my B.A. in ’97.
Then pursue my teaching credential for 1 and half years so I graduate in 97/98.
Payne: So you graduate that year with a teaching credential?
Patrick: In ’97, I graduate with a B.A. in French then a year after that a teaching
credential.
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Payne: What did you intend to do with your degree?
Patrick: Intentionally I wanted to become a French teacher but after that I took a look our
community and I saw who I am and I saw that there was more need in Hmong then in
French. That’s why we built this program.
Payne: How did your family feel about your choice to attend college?
Patrick: I think that at the beginning they did not believe me. To be honest to you,
because I came to this country when I was 19 years old . Nobody believed in me that I
can do it because none of my cousins go to college. They all finished high school and
then go to work. None of them go to college. So I come to this country and not speak a
lot of English and I said to my brother that I am going to go to college. He support me
100% but I know that deep inside he yeah right and you’re not going to make it. The
most important is that I believed in myself and I know that I can do it. I did it and that is
how I think that I was a pioneer for my clan; other people, other clan they have some
people that have a very high education but in my clan I was a pioneer to make through
college.
Payne: You were the first one?
Patrick: I was one of the first ones.
Payne: Your brother’s didn’t attend college.
Patrick: Yeah, he attend college but he only got his AA degree. Yeah, for his degree it is
college but….
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Payne: Right, I can understand. Do you plan on furthering your educational experience
and going a little further?
Patrick: I want to but to be honest with you, I want to but look at my age, I am 41 right
now. I am thinking about that I would rather to save my time to do other thing then to go
to college because there is so much you can do. But right now I am also a writer. I wrote
Hmong text book. I wrote Hmong novels too so I rather save my time to do other things
that I like to do that I am passion to do. I want to do than go back to college. For me
going back to college is to get knowledge only and you’re…Hmoob tias koj yeej tsis ntse
ntxi na yom; you’re not going [to get] smarter by adding some more knowledge to it so I
rather do something I really like to do. But maybe in the future I might go back to
college, you never know.
Payne: Right, but for right now…
Patrick: But for right now….
Payne: What are the books that you are writing about?
Patrick: I wrote the first one is a Hmong text book. It’s called, “Describing the Hmong
Language.” It’s a good book. A lot of people, a lot of district adopted the book and a lot
of Hmong charter school in Minnesota also adopted the book. The other two books are
the Hmong novel are based on the historical novel based on my experience of
immigrating in the refugee camp. At the same I put a love story so make it a more
readable.
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Payne: Are those books written in Hmong?
Patrick: Yeah. I try to preserve the Hmong language, Hmong culture and Hmong history
because our history is kinda sad. Our history are oral history only. Everything we do we
say in the past is through mouth and if you don’t put those beautiful story in books pretty
soon we will have nothing left over. So I am trying to preserve everything like other
people do.
Payne: Right now, you’re a teacher here at Luther Burbank?
Patrick: Yes, I have been a Hmong teacher for the last 11 years. 10 years.
Payne: Here at Luther Burbank?
Patrick: Yes, at Luther Burbank High School. Prior to that I teach in middle school.
Payne: What were you teaching there?
Patrick: In middle, it’s kinda funny, I graduate with a French degree and they put me in a
U.S. Government and then Social Science and World History. Interesting.
Payne: What was the middle school that you taught at?
Patrick: It used to be Goethe but now it is called Rosa Park. It is just down the street.
Payne: Is there anything that we missed or that you would like to add?
Patrick: Well, you know, I would like to add that as Hmong people, one thing that as
people we need to remember who were are and our history where we come from in order
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to be stronger for the next generation. Try to be like [what] our parents taught us to be
good people, to be honest people, to do what we can, to be good example for our clan, for
our children, for society and I think that even though our history doesn’t write everything
in the books we still have good roots to follow. If we do that then we should be able to
take everything. Nowadays, I think it is important, it’s a must to go take in.
Payne: Alright, thank you Patrick so much for agreeing to do this interview.
Patrick: No problem. Thank you for choosing me even though I don’t have a lot of fancy
or good things there. Thank you for choosing me. I hope that this interview will help for
your master’s thesis.
Payne: Alright. Thank you so much.
END OF INTERVIEW
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APPENDIX 5
Oral History Interview with Dr. Judith Vue
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84
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Sacramento Hmong-American Oral History Project
Interview History for Oral History of
Dr. Judith Vue
Interviewer’s Name: Payne Vang
Interview Date and Location: April 25, 2010 at the home of the interviewee in
Sacramento, CA
Context Notes: Transcribing was performed by Payne Vang. Any redundant “uhs” or
“um” have been removed from the transcript. Background noises from the children can
be heard throughout the interview session. There is also a clicking noise at the beginning
of the interview. The interview is done in two parts. The interviewee spoke in both
Hmong and English at certain times in the interview. The Hmong words are italicized for
emphasis; translations are provided where necessary in brackets next to the Hmong
words. The Hmong names mentioned by the interviewee have been spelled in Hmong to
ensure accuracy.
Tapes and Interview Records: The original digital recording of the interview is stored as a
CD and is being housed at Special Collections and University Archives in the Library at
California State University, Sacramento.
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Transcript of the Interview
Payne: This is an interview with Dr. Judith Vue, as a part of the Sacramento Hmong
American Oral History Project, my thesis project for the Public History Master’s
Program at California State University, Sacramento. The interview is conducted on April
25th, 2010 at the home of Dr. Vue. I am Payne Vang. Let us begin by talking a bit about
your background. Where and when were you were born?
Judith: I was born in Laos. [The] city yog [is] Phonsavan on February 8th, 1973.
Payne: Okay, do you have a Hmong name that you also go by?
Judith: Maiv Ntxawg.
Payne: Maiv Ntxawg.
Judith: Uh hum.
Payne: What is your dialect?
Judith: Hmoob.
Payne: Hmoob?
Judith: Hmoob Dawb.
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Payne: Hmoob Dawb Los. Okay. Tell me a bit about your mother and your father? When
and where were they born?
Judith: My parents, os kuv txiv…haiv lug Hmoob yom. [both laugh] Kuv txiv yog Zam
Xyooj Vwj. Nws yug thaum Oct. 5th, 1918. Hos, kuv niam yog Xia Yang; December Ob,
1920. [My parents, my dad…say it in Hmong okay. [both laughs] My father is Za Xiong
Vue. He was born on Oct. 5th, 1918. And, my mother is Xia Yang; December 2, 1920.
Payne: How were your parents earning a living in Laos?
Judith: Lawv cov laus ua teb xwb. [The old people did farming only.]
Payne: They just did farming?
Judith: Yes, farming.
Payne: Do you know what they farmed?
Judith: Everything. Whatever they can do. Usually, rice, corn, tej zaum ntse puas thaum
ub mas lawv ua yeeb nes yom. Yeah. Tej zaum lawv ua yeeb in the old days, tham sis tom
qab no ces lawv ua nplej, thiab ua pob kws thiab tej ntawv xwb vob. [Usually, rice, corn,
probably in the old days they also farmed opium? Yeah, probably they farmed opium in
the old days. But in the more recent past, they farmed rice and corn, that’s probably
about it.]
Payne: Oh. What memories do you have of Laos?
Judith: Not many. Not much.
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Payne: Not much? Do you remember anything about Laos?
Judith: I remember about crossing a river but that’s about it? [both laughs]
Payne: Was that the Mekong River?
Judith: Yes.
Payne: You just remember about that part. Okay. Did you get to attend school in Laos?
Judith: No.
Payne: Were any of your family members in school?
Judith: Yeah. I was the youngest so everybody did go to school. I don’t know what level
but out of the eight of us all seven did go to school.
Payne: How many were boys and how many were girls?
Judith: Six boys and two girls.
Payne: So even the girls got to go to school?
Judith: Yes.
Payne: Where you or any of your family involved in the Secret War in Laos?
Judith: Yeah, my brother Tuam.
Payne: Just one brother?
Judith: Yes, just one brother.
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Payne: Was he a soldier or what was his role?
Judith: I think he was like a nurse. He was a nurse. [There is a lot of background noise in
this part of the interview.]
Payne: Did he talk much about what he did?
Judith: No, not much.
Payne: How did the Secret War in Laos affect your family?
Judith: Well, we got here so it must have affected us somehow.
Payne: Right. [both laughs]
Judith: But I’m not sure how.
Payne: Please talk about why and when your family left Laos?
Judith: Well, my brothers’ left because they were students and they left. My parents then
followed my brothers. I was the youngest so I end up doing what they were doing.
Payne: Right. Do you know what year they left Laos?
Judith: They tried [and] made two attempts. I remember the last attempt was in 1979.
Payne: And that was when you guys left Laos? That was the second time?
Judith: Yes.
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Payne: Can you describe that journey how you left Laos? Or what you remember or what
stories you heard about that journey?
Judith: I can’t remember exactly but my brother that left early, he came back to get us. I
think he got lost somehow and then he finally made it home. Then I can’t remember
exactly but I heard that we left at night so that nobody would hear us. I think that we just
walked. [laughs] Half of the time I was being carried so I can’t remember all the details
but I remember leaving at night and everybody was whispering and crossing the river to
the other side to Thailand.
Payne: How old were you at that time?
Judith: Five.
Payne: So your brother came to get you, right. So you had two brothers already in the
camp?
Judith: Three.
Payne: Three brothers and then one brother came back to get you. Did any other family
come with you on that trip? Did you know?
Judith: Yes, there was a group of us. My aunt, and some of the cousins but I don’t
remember exactly though.
Payne: There was a large group of people?
Judith: Yeah. Probably like three or four families.
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Payne: Do you know when you crossed the river, did you guys get to cross on a boat?
Judith: No, we just used the floating tubes.
Payne: Inner-tubes? They strung you guys across?
Judith: Uh huh.
Payne: Okay. Do you know how many days it took you to get to the Thai border?
Judith: I know that it was more day. [laughs] But I don’t remember exactly how many
days.
Payne: Did you or your family leave with any expectation of returning back to Laos?
Judith: No. I don’t think so.
Payne: How did your parents feel about leaving? [Lots of background noise]
Judith: I don’t think that they had any hesitation about leaving.
Payne: About leaving Laos?
Judith: Both my brothers have left so I don’t think that they had any hesitation about
leaving.
Payne: Why did your brothers leave?
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Judith: Well, one was in the service. The other two they were students so they followed
him because he is the older of the three. So three of them were gone and my dad didn’t
want to stay anymore.
Payne: So your father decided to go ahead and follow his sons?
END OF 1ST INTERVIEW SESSION: TOOK A BREAK
Payne: Okay. Did anyone meet you or your family when you reached Thailand?
Judith: No.
Payne: Which refugee camps did you and your family stayed at and how long at each
camp?
Judith: I think we [stayed] at Ban Vinai for a couple months and then we came here.
Payne: So you didn’t have to go to any other camp at that time?
Judith: No.
Payne: What did you recall about life in the refugee camp?
Judith: Not much. I remember it being really hot and a lot of kids and that’s it. [laughs]
Payne: Nothing else. [laughs]
Judith: We weren’t there for very long. We were just there for three or four months. One
of my brother was working with Gerry and the immigration crew. So when we got there
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it was pretty fast between the time that we got there and the time that we leave to the
States. I don’t remember a whole lot.
Payne: How did your family receive refugee status?
Judith: What did you mean?
Payne: Uh, how did….how would you?
Judith: In Thailand or here?
Payne: Yeah, in Thailand and in here, too. How did you, even this question is kind of
hard for me to explain. In Thailand, you were in the refugee camp and how did you get
the status of refugee.
Judith: I don’t know in Thailand. Why…I guess everyone was trying to flee from the
war, so I guess that makes him a refugee and when we got here it’s pretty much the same
thing.
Payne: Right.
Judith: And I think that is generally what’s applied to all those people that were in that
camp.
Payne: Right. Okay, describe any help you received if any from the refugee resettlement
organizations after you arrived in the camps. Did you receive any assistance from them?
Judith: If we did, I don’t know. [laughs]
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Payne: That’s okay. You were very young at that time. While in the refugee camps, did
some in your family resist to immigrating to a new country?
Judith: No, nobody.
Payne: Both your parents agreed that it was best to come here?
Judith: Yes. Whatever. [laughs]
Payne: [laughs]
Judith: One of my brothers were coming so they had no choice but they didn’t want to
stay.
Payne: Did all of you come at the same time or did your brother’s already come here?
Judith: Ah, let’s see. Three of them….well, one of them came first then the other two
younger ones went to Canada then a couple months after that we came.
Payne: So, one came here to the United States.
Judith: Yes, one came here to the States. Two younger ones went to Canada and the rest
of us came to the States also.
Payne: Did you know your family decided to come to the United States instead of
following your other brothers to Canada? Why they chose the United States?
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Judith: Well, actually they didn’t want to go to Canada but they just didn’t want to stay in
Thailand so the next option was to Canada. It was okay because we knew that Canada
wasn’t very far away.
Payne: From the United States.
Judith: From the States, yes, from where everyone was going to come and so they didn’t
mind. About three years later they came and join us here in the States.
Payne: Do you remember very much about the journey from the refugee camps to the
United States?
Judith: Not really, other than everyone was put in the bus. It took a couple of hours to
some camp in Bangkok. I can’t remember exactly where. [laughs] [We were] there for
maybe like a month or so. And then got here. So, no, not really.
Payne: Do you remember how you felt? Were you scared at all?
Judith: No, I was a young kid. I was just going where everyone was going.
Payne: Right, as long as your parents went.
Judith: Yes, as long as they went. That’s it.
Payne: Do you remember what your family brought on the journey? What you were able
to bring to the United States?
Judith: I don’t think, not very much. Maybe just couple of outfits, that’s it. I don’t
remember seeing a whole lot on the airplane. [laughs]
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Payne: What were your impressions of the United States before you came here?
Judith: I didn’t even know what the United States was.
Payne: Did your family hear any rumors about the United States when you were in the
camp?
Judith: No.
Payne: Who sponsored you and your family to come to the United States?
Judith: It was these two Caucasian white couple. I can’t remember their name but we still
keep in touch with them. What’s their name? I think her name is Jennifer. That’s the
wife’s name. She’s still alive and the husband passed away a couple of years ago. They
are in Spokane.
Payne: That’s where you were originally. [background noise]
Judith: Yes, that’s where I was originally.
Payne: Did anyone meet you when you arrived?
Judith: My brother, his wife and the sponsors. And I think everybody that was living
there at that time. All those Hmong couples that were living there at that time. [laughs]
Payne: They came to meet you at the airport?
Judith: Yes.
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Payne: Do you remember how you felt when you landed? What your impression was of
Spokane when you got here?
Judith: No. Just following the crowd.
Payne: Okay. Did you know any English when you arrived?
Judith: No, I don’t think so.
Payne: How did you begin to learn the English language?
Judith: Well, when we got here, I went to school. I started at Kindergarten so pretty much
just from school.
Payne: Did you or your family have any difficulties adjusting to life in the United States
when you first arrived?
Judith: I don’t remember but I’m sure that there is for my parents and other brothers and
sister-in-law because they were older. But other than that I don’t remember exactly. I
think I remember my dad walking to the grocery store in the snow; probably because he
couldn’t drive yet. [laughs] But that’s about it.
Payne: What was your economic condition on arrival?
Judith: [I] don’t remember but I am sure that we didn’t have anything.
Payne: Did your sponsors?
Judith: Did they contribute?
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Payne: Yes.
Judith: Yes. I am sure that they contribute. I remember they’re pastors of a church. I can’t
remember which one. But they have one son. I remember him taking us to places to go
the store and to church and to stuff like that. So I’m sure that they contribute to that and it
wasn’t very long after that, that we had a car. But I can’t remember where the car came
from. [laughs]
Payne: [laughs] Maybe from them?
Judith: It’s probably from them but I can’t remember exactly. I am sure that the sponsors
made a lot of contributions.
Payne: Did you know if you received any assistance from refugee resettlement
organizations there in Spokane?
Judith: If we did, I don’t know.
Payne: How did your family begin to earn a living after you arrived here?
Judith: Well, after we got here, I was put in summer school. My parents, they were older,
so all they did was they went to adult school for some time. But then it wasn’t enough,
besides that they were already in their senior years so they didn’t work at all. My other
brothers started working with the county, I believe, doing social work. That’s because
they have gone to school in Thailand and in Laos so they already knew some English.
Payne: Right. How old was the oldest sibling?
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Judith: When we got here?
Payne: Yes.
Judith: He was twenty something.
Payne: Okay. What kind of problem did you or your family have when finding work or
working at that time? Did you know if they had any problems?
Judith: I’m sure that they did. I don’t know exactly though.
Payne: Where there certain people or groups that made you feel unwelcome? Or your
family, if you heard any?
Judith: No. because it was different when we came. At that time there wasn’t a lot of
Hmong people. So everyone was still welcome. It wasn’t like in the 80s when there was
quite a few of them and people are starting to not liking them coming. So if there was it
was very subtle because I don’t remember hearing anything.
Payne: Okay. Overall, what were the most difficult transitions to the United States for
you and your family?
Judith: I think that for my parents it was the lack of English.
Payne: Did you pursue American citizenship? Why or why not and how soon after you
arrived?
Judith: I don’t remember wanting to pursue citizenship. For me, you know, it was just the
timing. I think after I turned 18, is when I went and did it for myself. I think it was
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because my parents wasn’t at the time. But there wasn’t a need to do it. It was just there a
part of schooling. I didn’t have a reason to do it or not to do it. But soon after, now both
my parents were citizenship. The reason why they did it, [I] don’t know. [laughs]
Payne: Were you in college at the time?
Judith: Yeah. I was in college at the time.
Payne: Have you or your family returned to visit Thailand? Why or why not?
Judith: Yes. In the last couple of years, I try to go once every year in December. It’s just a
vacation, nothing special. It’s just a vacation, pleasure. My brother and sister-in-laws go a
couple of times a year just because they are in that distance and that’s why they do that.
My parents have gone a couple of times. My husband and I, like I said, we like to once
every year and so in December is when we go. And this year, we will go back.
Payne: Where do you go visit? Do you go back to Thailand or Laos?
Judith: We usually spend a week in Thailand. Different places and then we spend a week
or almost a week in Laos.
Payne: So about two weeks.
Judith: About two weeks, yeah.
Payne: Do you plan to or ever would like to live permanently in Laos?
Judith: No, I don’t think so but vacations, I would. One day when I retire, I’d like to
spend a couple months out of the year in Thailand.
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Payne: Have you stayed in touched with anyone from Laos or Thailand?
Judith: Other than my cousins, no. I have two cousins that are still living in Laos. Their
mom is my aunt so they are my first cousins. I see them every time I go and that’s it.
Payne: You go visit them each time?
Judith: No, they come and visit me. I don’t go up in the hills. [laughs]
Payne: [laughs] Where do they meet you then?
Judith: They meet me in Vientiane.
Payne: Oh, okay.
Judith: Because my sister-in-law and my brother have a house in Vientiane, and so when
go, we don’t go to motels or hotels, we just go and stay at the house. So my cousins come
and stay with us at the house until we come home.
Payne: Oh. That’s good. You have a place to stay there. What do you think are some of
the important ways immigration changed you or your family?
Judith: Well, you for the first and foremost, we are here. It is definitely a good idea that
we’re here. I don’t know what my life would be like if we weren’t. So whatever happen
that end up making us end up here, I’m thankful for.
Payne: I suppose the move may have both positive and negative aspects for you. What
are some of the negative consequences of the move for you and your family? [loud
commotion in the background]
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Judith: Negative consequences?
Payne: Uh hum.
Judith: Well, for one, I think for my parents they lost everything that they worked all their
life for. But I think that it was hardest for them. But for us, we had nothing to loose,
because we were just kids. So…. [loud background noises-sounds like a printer]
Payne: What were some of the positive aspects of the move for you and for your family?
Judith: For us, when we came here we were the lucky ones that we didn’t lose anybody.
So that was positive. We all came together for the most part and kinda settled close
together. And when we got here we worked hard and our lives are like normal. So that’s
good.
Payne: Can you tell me the names and birth years of your siblings?
Judith: I can’t remember their birth years but I do know their names. My oldest sister,
she’s the oldest. Her name is Mai Lee. She has eight kids, 3 girls and 5 boys. All of the
girls…two of the girls are married. One of the girl is going to med school and the other is
a teacher. The boys, uh, not sure what the oldest boy is doing but the number 3 and
number 4…number 3 finished college last semester in December, number 4 is finishing at
Fresno State and the other ones are still in college. My second brother’s name is Txiaj
Yeeb. He is supposedly the oldest one of the boys. He also has eight kids. They’re all
grown up. The youngest one just graduated from high school this month. The oldest she
already has, how many kids, 5 kids, I think. She’s older than me. Then number 2 brother
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is Vwj Kawm, it’s the one that owns the funeral home. He has 6 kids, I believe. Two girls
and four boys. Don’t know what year he was born. And then my other brother, he has
three kids, Ncaiv Kaus. And then the next is Ntxeb, he has three kids also. The next one
is Xeev Xwm, the director of the funeral home. He has five kids; he’s older than me. The
other one is David, he has two kids. He lives in Oklahoma. I can’t remember their
birthday though, sorry. [laughs]
Payne: [laughs] It’s okay. It’s hard to remember everyone’s birthday.
Judith: It’s hard to remember. Just who is older than who, is all that I remember.
Payne: When you have that many siblings, it’s hard. Were they all pretty much born in
Laos?
Judith: Yes. Everyone was born in Laos. See my dad is ninety-two this year and my mom
will be ninety.
Payne: Are they both living here in Sacramento?
Judith: They are both living still.
Payne: Are they living here?
Judith: Yes.
Payne: How about your siblings? Are they mostly here in Sacramento?
Judith: Well, my sister passed away 14 years ago but the others, five out of the six live
here. Like I said David lived in Oklahoma.
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Payne: Right. When and where did you begin school?
Judith: I started in Kindergarten in Spokane and then when we moved to Oregon I was in
second grade. Then when we moved to Merced I was in third grade so that’s where I
grew up and then I went to Sac State for a little bit. Then went to Chico State to finish my
undergrad then after that I went to Michigan for my graduate school. So I have a master’s
in Microbiology as well as my doctorate.
Payne: How did you fare in the classroom?
Judith: How did I feel in the classroom?
Payne: No, how did you fare? How did you do in the classroom?
Judith: Oh, how did I fare in the classroom? In college?
Payne: Yes. Just overall in the classroom.
Judith: You know, I’m not a very smart person but I don’t like to disappoint my dad so I
just try hard.
Payne: Tried your hardest.
Judith: Yes, I just keep trying hard that’s all.
Payne: Were you active in school outside of the classroom while growing up?
Judith: You know, when I was growing up, especially to be a girl, it’s different and so the
only thing that I could do was to go to school and then come home and study at home,
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and you know, do whatever my parents need help on. I was in girl scouts for a couple of
years. I think I was in fifth grade when I quit girl scouts because Hmong girls were
different during my time in the early, mid 80s I should say. So no, I wasn’t allowed to do
a lot of activities outside of school.
Payne: What chores did you do as a child?
Judith: I get to babysit a lot, my nephews and my nieces. And then help with whatever
my mom needs help on.
Payne: Around the house?
Judith: Around the house. Yes.
Payne: Do you remember what your siblings had to do, too?
Judith: See, it was different because siblings were for one thing all boys and boys don’t
do much.
Payne: Right.
Judith: They do whatever they want to do and so I don’t remember what they did. As a
girl it’s different for me. I do whatever my parents want me to do and then go to school
also. My brothers just pretty much go to school and do whatever they want. When they’re
hungry they just ask me to cook for them.
Payne: Right. [laughs]
Judith: [laughs]
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Payne: What interests or past times or favorite games did you have? Did you have any
when you were growing up?
Judith: I didn’t have an opportunity to really do any activity [or] any games because our
parents were traditional, really strict so, no, I didn’t do anything.
Payne: Who were your closest friends or who did you play with?
Judith: I didn’t have any friends.
Payne: No friends that were in your neighborhood that you had a chance to play with?
Judith: No, I have a childhood friend that I still keep in touch with. She lives here in
Sacramento also but we grew up in Spokane. We were pretty naughty for that little short
time that I got to know her. But like I said being the only girl in the family and everybody
else was boy. You know, when I was growing up there was only two girls in the family,
which was my mom and myself. Everybody else was boy so and then being a girl and
everyone else being a boy. All the boys don’t want you to spend a lot of time outside of
the house because they were overly protective so I didn’t have any friends. [laughs]
Payne: [laughs] I understand. Did your parents monitor or set rules about whom you
could play with?
Judith: You know, I think that mostly it’s my brothers. I didn’t have any problems with
that. I have friends at school but the only times that I spend time with them is at school.
After school or outside of school I didn’t go over to their house or just kind of waste time
with them. I didn’t do that. I didn’t have the choice.
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Payne: What were your parents’ aspirations for you as you were growing up?
Judith: All they want from want us, from all their kids is to go to school and have an
education so that, you can learn to make a living here in the states. A lot things that they
knew how to do, could not be done here. Of course, you can’t just go and start farming
and can’t build your own house. So that’s what they expected of us. Now my parents, I
mean, I think that most of my families did not expect the girls to really receive a
doctorate or anything. It’s mostly for the boys for some reason. It’s just tradition [or] the
way that Hmong people are I guess. [laughs] But they always motivated you to go to
school and all they do was make sure that I go to school and didn’t do anything else. So
most of us, stay on the top and finish.
Payne: What were your own aspirations as a youth, say in high school?
Judith: You know, I think that the main reason that I stay in school is because I was the
only girl and I wanted to…I didn’t want to disappoint my brothers and my dad. That was
my main motivation. I never, have not, try to test their limit to see what they will really
do if I did something wrong. Because I didn’t want to do that. So, whatever, they wanted
me to do, I just did.
Payne: So they wanted you to go to school and you just went.
Judith: Yes.
Payne: Okay. How long did you continue to live at home with your parents?
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Judith: I live with my parents until I got married. Even at that time, I went to college
already, I live with them. During my time, growing up in the mid-80s, I mean late-80s, it
wasn’t as common for girls to go away to college. When I start college, I was 16 so my
parents thought I was a little bit young. When I start college I was supposed to go to
BYU because I grew up as a Mormon. So I was accepted at BYU and my godparents that
kind of took care of me paid for my tuition at BYU and I was supposed to go there. And
they start school on January 14th or 15th or something like that. And right before I went,
my dad changed his mind because he thought I was too young so I never went. I just
stayed home and went to Sac State. Then I got married and moved to Chico because my
husband was going to Chico State at the time.
Payne: How old were you when you got married?
Judith: I was a month short of eighteen so I was seventeen.
Payne: Seventeen.
Judith: Yeah.
Payne: Okay. Do you have any children? If yes, how many?
Judith: I have three.
Payne: And what are their names and birth years?
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Judith: The oldest is a boy. His name is Jonathan, Npev Hmoob [hu ua] Tswv Yim. He is
nine. Then the second is Fairilynn [sp?] Seev Yees; she’s five. The third one is Justin Vaj
Lis and he’s three. I waited. My son was born was born after I finish school.
Payne: After you finish your doctorate?
Judith: Yeah. So we kind of start late. [laughs] That’s why our kids are little.
Payne: How did you decide to go ahead and just wait until you finish with your
education?
Judith: I didn’t want them to…I wanted to be ready financially so that when I do have
them I don’t have to worry about earning a living so that they can, you know, just to
make it. I wanted to be financially secured before I have kids and that’s why we waited.
Payne: Describe how you raise your children?
Judith: I don’t think that I raise them any way different from ordinary families. My
husband stays with the kids most of the time. He’s also self-employed and so he stays at
home most of the time with the kids. My son goes to school right now and five days out
of the week we have a private teacher that comes to our house after school and works
with him for two hours every day. Then when he’s not in school like in the summer time
when they are off on break, his teacher still comes to the house. So he has school year
long, pretty much. My daughter, she’s also in school but she does not have a private
teacher yet. Okay, then my youngest son, tags along with his dad where ever he goes. We
don’t have a nanny. It used to be puab puj their grandma but she lives up at the ranch and
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so Justin goes and spend time with them if their dad needs to do something but we’re
both self-employed so when we can, their dad usually stays with them unless he has
something important that he has to deal with.
Payne: What schools do your children attend?
Judith: Jonathan goes to Arnold Adriani Middle School. The school is fairly new; they
just opened about five years ago. Fairilynn starts at a Christian private school for two
years and then she went and joined Jonathan at the public school. Justin’s not in school
yet but come in August we’ll enroll Justin at the private school.
Payne: Do you want them to pursue higher education?
Judith: Yes. I do. I hope that they would and we have funds set up. One of the criteria in
the trust/will, is that they do go to college before they can get those funds.
Payne: So you’re making sure they got a college education.
Judith: Right.
Payne: How did your family decide to settle in the Sacramento region?
Judith: Well, you know, I think that my parents follow my brother. When we got here
he’s always worked for the county and so they just pretty much followed him. So when
he worked in Oregon, he got hired in Merced for one of the county for the state so
everybody followed him. And then soon after, he had promoted or transferred to
Sacramento. So everybody started to follow him too.
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Payne: Which brother was this?
Judith: Kawm.
Payne: Okay. Kawm. Let’s see. Do you remember much about the Hmong community in
Spokane?
Judith: The Hmong community in Spokane are pretty close. There are not a whole lot.
But I can’t remember exactly then but I heard that a lot people. a lot of groups have
moved out because people follow their relatives. The groups that are still there are
Hmoob Vwj [Hmong Vue]; that’s the majority of the people that are still there. And there
are also my cousins and nephews and they have been there for the past thirty something
years and everybody is highly educated in my group. But most of the people that were
there when we were there moved out.
Payne: What about the community in Merced and here in Sacramento?
Judith: I don’t remember exactly in Merced but here in Sacramento, when I was younger
I don’t pay attention to those things. But I think right now quite a large group. I think that
there are organizations that are bringing the people closer together. I don’t know how
that’s working out.
Payne: What are all the names of the organizations?
Judith: Well, they just had the Lao Family. I hear that that’s not, no longer existing. They
wanted to try to establish another organization. I don’t know how that’s going now. I
haven’t heard an update on it. Yeah.
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Payne: Ok. Was there a concentration or neighborhood of Hmong business like
somewhere here in Sacramento?
Judith: I don’t think that it’s concentrated anywhere. They are pretty much scattered
throughout Sacramento. Here in south side, let’s see…. I don’t think it’s concentrated in
any one particular area. I think it is pretty scattered throughout.
Payne: Do you remember? Do you know some of the names of the businesses?
Judith: Here in Sacramento?
Payne: Yes.
Judith: For first, I have my practice and then my cousin Dr. Lee has his practice up the
street, the chiropractor, well, that’s my nephew. My other cousin has his practice across
the street; he’s a physician. My other cousin works on Florin Road close to Freeport.
He’s also a dentist. Then there’s a couple of relatives that have grocery stores/restaurants.
I can’t remember their names though; the name of their shops, but they’re within a five
mile radius.
Payne: Okay. What is your religious practice right now?
Judith: Nothing.
Payne: Nothing.
Judith: [laughs]
Payne: [You] don’t go to church [and] don’t do the traditional way, either?
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Judith: Well, my husband is Catholic. He was raised Catholic. He went to private school
all his life and then I was raised Mormon and I went to Mormon up until college. And
then after we got married, that was it. We don’t do anything.
Payne: Oh. What’s your husband’s name?
Judith: Tooj Kwm.
Payne: He’s a Green Hmong?
Judith: Hmoob Leeg. Yes.
Payne: Hmoob Leeg. What Hmong cultural traditions have been most important for you
to retain?
Judith: I’m sure that there’s a lot but being that my father-in-law is still alive and he does
all that stuff so we haven’t adopted to do any of the traditional things in our household.
Most of the time we just join them at the ranch and so I don’t know rather it is fortunate
or unfortunate but we haven’t practice anything like that in our house.
Payne: You mean that they practice the old religion?
Judith: Yeah.
Payne: Okay. They still have the ceremonies at the house and you just….
Judith: Join them.
Payne: Then you guys don’t do anything at your house.
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Judith: No, not yet.
Payne: Okay. What crafts or food or holidays that are Hmong that are essential to you?
Judith: Well, being that we still have older parents, they do all that traditional new year
stuff at the ranch so like I said we just join them. Is it essential? Yeah, whatever they
want, we just tagged along. Is it important? I’m sure that it is. I don’t like to defy it and
say, you know, let’s not do it and see what happens.
Payne: Right.
Judith: Go along. If everyone says it’s good then it must be good and we just do it.
[laughs] Every year we have a lot of family that come here for the traditional Christmas
holiday and Thanksgiving dinners at our house. When they do come there, it’s a lot of
people and we do that every year here. That’s just our tradition just because we like to
gather both family; my family and my husband’s family. We try to get both families
together twice a year during Thanksgiving and Christmas so we do that every year.
Payne: What community events do you attend?
Judith: I get invited to do a lot of community activity and we do go whatever the cause
may be. A lot of time we try to stay away from private for profit activities but nonprofit
and for community activities we always go. We get to be invited to a lot of them. Every
time that we do get invited, we try to go. If there was plans that we are not able to fill, we
still participate and make monetary donations even though we were not able to attend.
Payne: How important is it to you to have a strong Hmong cultural knowledge?
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Judith: I think that it is very important. I try to teach it to my kids. It’s sad that even for
myself lack a lot of the culture. I wish that I knew more. I wish that I can study more. I
think that we should know the basics like the language. Whether we are able to write it or
read it, that’s different but as far as just the language itself, I think it’s important. It’s
pretty sad that even myself, I am losing the language. I’m still learning some of the
vocabularies. It’s very sad that I am learning from a White guy. Can you believe that?
[laughs] I’m reading this book called the Hmong Grammar and it’s written by Lis Foom
[also known as Jeffery D. Bohn, an attorney from Fresno, CA]. He’s a friend that I knew
for the past twenty years. I’m learning from him. He used to teach me English but now
I’m learning Hmong from him. I’m thinking to myself, is this reverse history or
something? [laughs]
Payne: Right.
Judith: But I’m teaching. I’m looking for classes to take because when you are teaching
your kids, it’s different from someone else teaching them.
Payne: Right.
Judith: They don’t learn anything from you for some reason. For example, today is
Sunday, right. Today is our Hmong day. We try to speak and do everything hais lus
hmoob [say in Hmong] but my kids refused to do it and so especially my son, he refuses
to talk on Sundays. [laughs] He makes all his requests on Saturday so that on Sunday he
doesn’t have to say anything.
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Payne: [laughs] So this is the oldest son?
Judith: Yes, this is the oldest son. He understands it but he couldn’t speak it. But yeah, I
think it is important that every Hmong person should know at least the language and be
able to speak it, too.
Payne: Can you describe any Hmong organizations that you have participated in?
Judith: We mainly do with the New Year every year, just because. A lot of non-profit
activities that the communities do. Sometimes it’s not a particular group. There’s a South
Sacramento Asian Association that just started. We also do activities with them if they
needed our help and then there’s different ethnic groups, like pej xeem, whatever
activities lawv ua [they do] to promote their causes and we participate with them. A lot of
it is just education. And so pretty much every nonprofit activity that we do. There’s this
high education one [but] I can’t remember the name. There’s a parent sponsor
association for higher education for children or something like that. I can’t remember
exactly the name. So we try to participate in a lot of activities that they do.
Payne: What is the highest educational level that you have achieved?
Judith: I spent nine years in college. I have three degrees. I have a Bachelor’s in
Biological Sciences then I went to Michigan and received my Master’s in Microbiology
then I received my Doctorate of Dental Surgery in Michigan also.
Payne: Okay. Describe your higher educational experiences like the dates you attended
college, your major, and the year that you received your degree.
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Judith: When I went to Chico State, I finished my undergrad in December of 2004 then I
went to Michigan and finished my master’s in June 2007 then in July I believe, I started
Dental School in July 2007 and finished in May 2001. Wait, hold on, 1997, did I say that
backwards? I did. 1997, I received my Master’s and started dental school in 1997 and
finished dental school in 2001.
Payne: [laughs] So 2001 you finished with your doctorate.
Judith: Yes. I must have said that backwards, did I?
Payne: I think you may have the dates a little mixed up.
Judith: Right. I started in 1997 with my doctorate and finished in 2001.
Payne: What did you intend to do with your degree?
Judith: I didn’t really know what I wanted to do as an undergrad. So I know that I wanted
to do something in Health but I didn’t really know what it was. So I just pursue a
Biological Sciences degree and then when I went to Michigan, I thought I was going to
teach so I did. I taught one semester for nursing students. I was teaching Microbiology
with them. After I finished with my Master’s and I was thinking to myself, “this is kinda
boring” because every semester you’re teaching the same thing so I couldn’t picture
myself doing that for the next thirty, forty years. So instead of doing my research, I was
also doing cancer research at University of Michigan, so instead of doing my research
project, I decided that maybe I should pursue another degree so I went into dentistry.
Because when I was in school, I couldn’t picture myself teaching for the rest of my life to
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a group of students and secondly, I was doing my research on Pancreatic Cancer and at
the time Pancreatic Cancer was a very devastating type of cancer because once you’re
diagnosed you have the maximum of six months to live. And so it was depressing. The
people that I was working with, you never know when they are going to die. One
gentlemen, it’s an African American gentlemen, I was working with him. He was fine. I
was talking to him that day and the next morning I went he was already dead. And it was
kind of depressing because we couldn’t find a cure. We were trying to find a cure and we
couldn’t find a cure and all these people were dying too fast. And I was thinking to
myself, that I wouldn’t be able to find a cure or be a part of a team that finds a cure in my
lifetime. So I decided that I don’t think that I could do this for the rest of my life either.
[laughs] Because researchers they’re always chasing the problem and it seems like that
was all we were doing, just chasing the problem. But that’s not what the patients want,
they want to know what’s causing it and how to stop it and after a couple of years there
was no find of coming close to that. After a couple of my patients died, I didn’t think that
I could continue doing that over and over again. So I decided to go to dental school.
Payne: And to become a dentist instead.
Judith: Yeah. Because nobody dies in dentistry, not yet. [laughs]
Payne: [laughs] Why did you choose to get higher education?
Judith: Well, you know. I think a lot of it has to do with the future that I can provide for
my kids. My parents have also taught me that as long as your head is above your knee
you have to work. Okay. I see how hard my parents work in the days when they were
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able to work and I don’t want to have to work that hard. And I didn’t to have my kids
work that hard. So I decide that if I can, you know. I also believe that if I have an
education it would provide me with the opportunities to stay away from that route. So
that’s why I decided to pursue an education. Now having done that, my goal in my life, if
I can make the life comfortable for my kids, I’ve done it. So that when they grow up, they
don’t have to work as hard as I did when I was growing up. So if I can achieve that then
I’m happy.
Payne: Did you find it challenging being a Hmong woman to go to college?
Judith: No, because right before I finished my undergrad, I got married. My husband also
supported higher education as well as his parents and as well as my parents. We have
both parents that are supporting the same idea of continuing education so I didn’t have
any problems. Besides that we didn’t have any kids. We defer having kids until we were
both financially secured and we both agreed on that. So it wasn’t difficult at all. It was
just that when we were both in college it was hard because we both had very limited
income and that was the most challenging, that was hard to endure. But if you, stay focus
on what you want to achieve, anything is possible.
Payne: So your parents encouraged you to go to college?
Judith: Yes.
Payne: Your brother’s too.
Judith: Yes.
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Payne: Did you plan on furthering your education any more or going to any more college
or anything like that?
Judith: I’d like to. I always kid myself that I should’ve gotten another degree.
Payne: In a different….
Judith: In a different field. So you never know. I was joking with my daughter that one
day when she goes to college that I’ll go with her. [laughs] But I don’t have anything
planned but that doesn’t mean that I will never go. I still continuously go to Continue
Education throughout the years. Do I want to wish to get another degree? Maybe, when
the time is right.
Payne: Did any of your siblings also attend college?
Judith: Yeah, also, out of the eight of us, six of us attend college. The two oldest one,
they couldn’t because they were already older by the time that they got here.
Payne: Where do you currently work at and what do you do?
Judith: I have a private practice. I do general cosmetic dentistry.
Payne: Where’s your office located at?
Judith: It’s at 7260 East Southgate Drive, Suite B here in Sacramento.
Payne: How long have you open up your practice there?
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Judith: I started in…. I officially opened on July Fourth 2002. So I’ve been here ever
since [in the] same address and location.
Payne: Was this your first practice that you opened up?
Judith: Yes, it’s my first practice. Prior to that I was working at the University Medical
Center in Fresno and at the Veteran’s Administration.
Payne: Is there anything that we missed or that you would like to add?
Judith: No.
Payne: Thank you, Dr. Vue for agreeing to do this interview.
Judith: You’re welcome.
END OF INTERVIEW
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APPENDIX 6
Oral History Interview with Mai Xi Lee
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Sacramento Hmong-American Oral History Project
Interview History for Oral History of
Mai Xi Lee
Interviewer’s Name: Payne Vang
Interview Date and Location: April 26, 2010 and April 30, 2010; office of interviewee at
Luther Burbank High School, Sacramento, CA
Context Notes: Transcribing was performed by Payne Vang. Any redundant “uhs” or
“um” have been removed from the transcript. The interview was conducted in two parts.
The Hmong words are italicized for emphasis; translations are provided where necessary
in brackets next to the Hmong words.
Tapes and Interview Records: The original digital recording of the interview is stored as a
CD and is being housed at Special Collections and University Archives in the Library at
California State University, Sacramento.
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Transcript of the Interview
Payne: This is an interview with Mai Xi Lee, as a part of the Sacramento Hmong
American Oral History Project, my thesis project for the Public History Master’s
Program at California State University, Sacramento. The interview is conducted on April
26th, 2010 at Luther Burbank High School. I am Payne Vang. Let’s start with where you
were from and where you were born?
Mai Xi: Sure. Where I’m from as in where I grew up or raised?
Payne: Where you were born.
Mai Xi: Oh, okay. So I was born in Laos and came to the refugee camps in Thailand
when I was, gosh, about five or six and then stayed there until about seven and then I
came here. Came here to the United States but grew up in Stockton, California.
Payne: Okay, what year were you born?
Mai Xi: 1972.
Payne: Do you know the date and the month?
Mai Xi: Yes. [laughs] December 28th.
Payne: Do you know of the town that you were born in, in Laos?
Mai Xi: You know, what I know is what my mom has told me. Right. So I think she said
Xieng Khuang.
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Payne: Xieng Khuang. So Mai Xi Lee [I pronounced it as Mai Sia] is that….
Mai Xi: Mai Xi. [She states that it is pronounced as Mai See.]
Payne: Is that the name that your parents gave you when you were born?
Mai Xi: Right. It’s actually Maiv Ntxi in Hmong but of course in English it [is]
Anglicized as Mai Xi [pronounced as Mai See]. Yeah, that’s the name my mom gave me.
Payne: Oh, okay. What is your dialect?
Mai Xi: Um, like White Hmong, Green Hmong?
Payne: Yeah.
Mai Xi: White Hmong.
Payne: You’re White Hmong.
Mai Xi: Yes.
Payne: Tell me a bit about your mother and your father. When and where were they
born?
Mai Xi: Gosh. I don’t know about my father. My father, in fact, passed away when I was
a baby. My mother, we think or she thinks anyway on paper that she was born in 1945
and not real sure where. Laos.
Payne: Somewhere in Laos?
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Mai Xi: Somewhere in Laos. [laughs] These are things that I should know, yes, but I
don’t have that information.
Payne: That’s alright. How were your parents earning a living in Laos?
Mai Xi: They were farmers. Actually my father was a scholar and was going to school
and was in fact on his way to school in France. Both his brothers were very supportive
and the family had some money so they were prepared to send him to France and of
course he passed away and that didn’t happen. So my mom grew up on a farm, very poor,
and then married into my father’s family. They were obviously better off then she was
but still they were all farmers. Although I think that my eldest uncle, again these were
stories that have been told to me, was either a judge or province mayor and then my other
uncle was a major in General Vang Pao’s army. But I think that before that they were
both farmers.
Payne: Do you have any memories of Laos?
Mai Xi: You know, my memories, I’m not real sure if they’re my own or they are
memories that have been fed to me by my older siblings and mom. But what memories I
have are very sporadic. My most vivid memory is the day that we left. The day that my
mom came home and said that we need to pack up and go because the communist are
coming. So I remember that I was really sick and that I had a fever for a few days. My
mom had been saving a drumstick for me and as you know the sign of love for your child
is by saving them the drumstick. So my mom had been saving this drumstick for me on
the shelf for when I felt better I could eat it. No refrigeration of course. [laughs] But that
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was then. I remember as we were leaving, I was a little girl and my mom either had to
carry me or my sister had to carry me. Somebody had to carry me. I remember as we
were leaving I kept asking my mom about my drumstick. I want my drumstick and my
mom said it’s too late we can’t get it; it’s too dangerous. I remember being so sad
because I couldn’t have my drumstick to eat. Other memories that I have are again very
spotty. Like I remember bathing in the river, and I think it’s partially my fear of the water
or my reason for not learning how to swim. I remember swimming in the water and
using our skirts as floaties. So we would fill our skirts with water and used that as little
floating. We’d float down the river. Again these are memories that we talked about with
family and friends so I’m not real sure if they’re my true memories. But other than that I
don’t remember a whole lot. Because like I said I left at such a young age, it’s like a
chicken in the water. [laughs] We’re floating down the river but not a whole lot of
memories.
Payne: [laughs] You were probably too young, but did you get to attend school in Laos?
Mai Xi: I didn’t. I did in fact my family tells the story of me being so young I couldn’t go
to school. So one of my oldest cousins, who was a teacher, would babysit me in class. So
I guess I got to learn through by being in the place. He would take me to his class. While
he was teaching, I would sit in the corner and watch him teach. Also because I was too
young and I couldn’t go so my mom would put me, leave me at home by myself, you
know, I was maybe three or four. They all tell this funny story of me being too scared to
stay inside the house by myself so I would put a little kiv teev outside the house, a little
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stool. I would sit there all day and I guess I was so scared that I would put my head
against the wall and sit until my sisters came home from lunch. She would feed me.
She’d run back from school, feed me lunch and then go back to school for a few more
hours. She said I would be in the same position that she left me in the morning when she
came back at lunch. Periodically, relatives would come by to check on me but I would be
sitting with my head leaning against the wall as a three year old. So no. [both laughs] I
didn’t go to school. I learned patience, I guess.
Payne: Right. Where you or any of your family members involved in the Secret War in
Laos?
Mai Xi: Like I said, my uncle was a major. I believe my eldest uncle was, not sure if he
was a judge or a mayor, but he was connected with General Vang Pao’s regime. Then my
uncle he was a big part, a major. My dad because he was a scholar, I’m not sure if he was
recruited. But a lot of my relatives in and around our village were heavily entrenched as
soldiers or runners but you know, it’s interesting they don’t talk about it as much. Again
what I know is from the women who talk about it but obviously the women weren’t as
involved as the men and boys. The men certainly don’t talk about it a lot. I remember the
story about one of my cousins, who joined as a soldier and who disappeared. To this day,
my uncle swear that he’s somewhere in a prison camp in Vietnam and that he really
didn’t pass away. He was so young at the time. He was seventeen, eighteen but he was
married so I don’t know. Maybe they got married young back then. But to this day we
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don’t know where he is. As far as being close, I guess that’s the closest I got. My brothers
were too young to be a part of that so.
Payne: Please talk about when and why your family left Laos.
Mai Xi: So my family left Laos because we were connected with my uncles, both my
uncles, who were heavily entrenched in the political scene at the time. I recall stories of
them being on a list. They were targets for assassinations so anyone related to them
would also be in danger. I remember again that day when my mom came home and we
need to go because the communists are coming and because again we were related to
them and we were also targeted for assassinations. So we left, that must have been, I was
five, so that must have been ’77, ’78. So we trekked, I remember, several days. We would
march on foot through the minefields. I remember being told not to step on certain things
because it was really dangerous and being very quiet. There were times when they had to
carry me because I was too small. We walked a really long time until we get to the
Mekong River. I remember it being pitched dark and being told there were people
waiting for us so we need to make sure that they were friendly. We had to wait on one
side of the mountain while the men went to search for, I guess mercenaries, people who
were going to take us to Thailand. I just remember being really scared and being told you
couldn’t say anything because cov nyab laj or communist would come and get us. So I
just remember being cold, being scared but also in some ways kinda excited because as a
five year old, you know right, cooking out in the jungle, it was a lot of fun for us kids,
even though we couldn’t talk and we couldn’t really do a whole lot but we were all
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together and there was that camaraderie. But except for that I don’t remember too much.
But I do remember getting on a raft. I remember my mom saying we needed to get on a
raft because my uncle was rowing. Again I don’t remember this but my mom told the
story of basically given this person everything that she had, all of her silverware, all of
her money, her silver bars, just so that we could get a space on this raft to float over to the
other side of the Mekong River, which would have been Thailand.
Payne: Right.
Mai Xi: But I just remember it being pitched black.
Payne: Do you know how many days it took for you guys to reach the Thai border?
Mai Xi: No, I don’t. I just remember traveling for a few days. Maybe…three or four days.
I don’t know, it kind of all blurred and blended in together. I just remember that by the
time that we reached the Mekong River that it was really, really dark. But we had been
sleeping on the road for a long time. Again my memory is so shotty when it comes to me
remembering Laos. As my sisters say, I think part of it is being so young and being so
maybe traumatized by the sudden move or maybe being so traumatized by my drumstick
that, you know, that I blocked out a lot of memories. Because my most clear memory are
when we landed in San Francisco. I don’t remember a whole lot about Thailand either
and we were there for a year and a half, maybe. But I couldn’t tell you what the camps
were like unless I looked at pictures and I recount stories that have been told to me by my
older siblings and my mom.
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Payne: Do you know the village that you last lived in Laos? The name of the village?
Mai Xi: Oh, my gosh. My mom will probably kill me because she told me several times.
[laughs] No. No, I couldn’t even begin to guess.
Payne: That’s okay.
Mai Xi: I know it’s awful. In talking to you, I feel like, oh gosh, I need to call my mom.
[laughs] To talk to her about everything.
Payne: [laughs] Did your family leave with any expectation of going back to Laos?
Mai Xi: No.
Payne: How did your parent’s feel about leaving Laos or how did you feel?
Mai Xi: you know, I know…again, this is all from talking to my mom now, right.
Because obviously, I didn’t know how she felt then. I just know she panicked and needed
to get us to safety. I think for my mom, she feels like that was the best thing that could
have happened to her and certainly to us. She was a single mother and so she, even
though she got close to my uncles and their families in a lot of ways, it was a very hard
life for her. She had to each time we moved, and we moved a lot, she had to build her
own house. She had to farm her own farm. It was very, very difficult and then on top of
that to take care of four kids. Four very little kids. So I think for my mom, in retrospect it
was the best thing. Also I think the other piece to this is that she was very concern that
she couldn’t take care of us and that at some point my uncle would force her to put us
into an orphanage. I guess conversations had been had about the two girls going to an
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orphanage and the two boys staying, adopted by my uncles and then she would go with
her relatives. And she really fought against that and you know, in some ways, that goes
against the grain of what a women should do, right? Because she refused to remarry, I
think that was the other option. She was told she had to remarry or else basically taking
care of all of us. She said that as long as I’m alive, I’m going to keep my kids together
and I’m going to take care of them. So fear of putting us in an orphanage or fear of losing
all of us, so coming here I think presented her with these wonderful opportunities that she
hadn’t had. For one an education, she went to from when she was little, she went to the
farm day in and day out, never had the chance to learn unlike my father, who was a
scholar so he didn’t farm. But so for my mom, coming to the United States and having
the chance to learn English, and having the chance to work, to be able to earn income,
and to watch her kids go to school, which, you know, was an amazing experience. In fact
I ask her now, “Would you go back?” And it’s interesting because sometimes she would
say, “yes but only if I have a house and have the option to come back here but not to live
and not to farm because it’s such a hard life.” I don’t think that is something that she
would want to do. Because in my opinion, I said more than I needed to. [laughs]
Payne: That’s okay. Do you know did anyone meet you or your family when you reached
Thailand?
Mai Xi: I don’t remember. I remember there being a bunch of men who came out to help
us to get on the raft. I remember again being really pitched dark and there were people
who waited for us on the other side but I don’t know if there was any specific people, any
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organizations, charity programs or what not. But I just remember we were brought into a
refugee camp and we stayed there until we were sponsored to come here to the United
States.
Payne: What was the name of the refugee camp?
Mai Xi: Um…. Ban Vinai, maybe?
Payne: Ban Vinai.
Mai Xi: Yeah, again that’s what I’ve been told. [laughs]
Payne: You’re not really sure?
Mai Xi: Ah, no, no. I think Ban Vinai sounds really familiar though.
Payne: Do you know if you stayed at any other besides that camp?
Mai Xi: You know, I think my mom said that we moved probably twice because they’re
all broken down into sections, the camps were. I remember my mom said that they
relocated us twice to different sections of the camp. I don’t know if it was an entirely
different camp or if it was just different sections but we did move around up until when
we left.
Payne: So you don’t recall anything about the camp?
Mai Xi: No. Oh, I remember dumplings. They gave us dumplings and I remember
thinking these were really good because it was like the Chinese dim sum pastries. But I
remember their being some kind of meat inside and there was like a bread outside and
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thinking that was the best thing that I had eaten ever. That was one of the things that they
rationed out periodically to us, and you know of course, with rice and other things. Those
dumplings were so good. Yeah.
Payne: Do you remember any help your family received from any refugee resettlement
organizations in Thailand?
Mai Xi: Not that I can recall. I’m sure that there were organizations there working and
supporting us but at the time as a kid, I didn’t pay attention to that.
Payne: While in the refugee camps, did some in your family resist to immigrating to a
new country?
Mai Xi: You know, I remember, again this is all from conversations, there were some
relatives who didn’t want to come. In fact one of my aunts didn’t want to come but she
wanted to send one of her daughter with my mom. I remember we were being
interviewed and she was going to be, I guess, adopted as one of my mom’s daughters,
and so she was supposed to go with us to the interview but at the last minute she got
married. And so because she got married, she couldn’t come but I know her family didn’t
want to come. So there were people who were scared because we were told these awful
stories about coming to America and having these giants, you know Nyav, eat Hmong
people and that Hmong people were treated very poorly and oh yeah, there was this story,
and I do remember this that there were these toilets that if you go and sit on them that
they would suck you in and they would kill you. So that was one of the warnings is that
to watch out for the seats of the toilets because you will get sucked under. I remember
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being really scared of that for some reason. So there were a lot of people who were very
frightened of all these tales that they had heard that America wasn’t the best place and
people weren’t treated well. But for my mom, there was no other choice and she had
relatives here already. In fact, my aunt sponsored us, who lived in Stockton at the time
and she was writing my mom saying that things are fine, don’t listen to the stories that
you are hearing. We’re fine. She actually got a church which she was going to, to help
sponsor us. So for my mom, it was just let’s get my kids to a different place because this
wasn’t the best place to raise my kids. Yeah, there were definitely people who would not
come because of fears.
Payne: Did you come directly to the United States? You came directly to Stockton?
Mai Xi: Yes. I think we flew and stopped over in the Philippines and then we came to
real short layover and then we came to San Francisco. I think we were in San
Francisco…I think it was an intake facility and I think we were there for a week. Then
my aunt and her husband came and get us to Stockton.
Payne: Do you remember the date that you arrived here in the United States?
Mai Xi: Ah, I know it was spring and it was 1980. I think my mom said it was around
May. May 1980.
Payne: How did your family decide to come to the United States? Was it because your
aunt was here?
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Mai Xi: Right. My aunt was here, family, again she...oh, another issue is she was
separated from my uncle at one point. They were put in a different refugee camp and so
she was alone and at this point she had decided that she needed to not distance herself
from my father’s family but she needed to sort of take charge of her family and she felt
like my aunt was really the only option for her. Because my uncles as we found out had
been sponsored to go to France and I don’t think that they included that in whatever
sponsorship package that they got. So my mom was really hurt and really felt like she just
needed to do what she needed to do to get us to a safe place. So I think that was her big
motivation for getting us out of there.
Payne: What do you recall of the journey to the United States?
Mai Xi: Fear. I remember…again my memory is so spotty but the land mines…I
remember about being worried about stepping on certain things and then we had to
follow each other to make sure that we all stepped on the same places because of the land
mines. I remember there was this story that was told as we were moving about one of the
uncles or relatives who got blown up for stepping into the wrong place and lost their lives
or lost their limbs. So I remember being really, really scared, especially at night. We
couldn’t light anything at night and just being cold. The whole time being wet and cold
and everything being really dark. Again that’s my rationale for not learning how to swim,
being in the dark or the deep end of the pool because I just remember being wet and the
Mekong River being huge to me like this big dark abyss. It’s funny because I had a
chance to go back to China and I went down to the southern tip of China where you can
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cross the Mekong River. I remember looking at the Mekong River and going that’s it.
[laughs] It was so small and um, gosh, I was scared of this as a kid. I guess in the
darkness and at night it looked really scary and I think that we did cross at a place that
was very deep and it was very wide but I remember seeing the Mekong River a few years
ago and thinking that I guess we all could have kept walking up and all walked across.
But yeah.
Payne: What specifically…. What did you guys bring from the camps to the United
States?
Mai Xi: Oh wow, I still have it. The rice steamer, the homemade rice steamer. My mom
also brought this knife. I don’t know how she got it through, obviously this is pre-9/11,
right. She has a knife that she brought. Some clothes, she in fact, the one piece of
package that she didn’t let go of was my dad’s old clothes that she actually to this day she
still has and just some of his items, a pair of sunglasses, clothes, a tooth brush, that she
thought was such a precious thing because my dad had given it to her. One of the few
Hmong people that had a toothbrush in Laos. So she kept that and I think she’s still using
it, I’m not sure. Let’s see what else. She had this little red suitcase that I think she bought
in Laos that actually I still have some of her Hmong clothes in it. But that was about it. I
remember coming to the United States with that red suitcase and each one of my siblings
took little bags, like old plastic bags of maybe a change of clothes. Oh, I remember my
mom had new clothes made for all of us just before we were going to leave and new
pants and new tops and that’s what we wore when we came here. But other than that
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there was nothing. Everything that we had, we got when we arrived in San Francisco. I’m
sure that they were all hand-me downs but they were great, spectacular for us.
Payne: So you got clothes at the airport?
Mai Xi: We got…I remember getting some dresses. My brothers getting some t-shirts and
some jeans. Because we had some clothes when we came to Stockton. And then of course
in Stockton we were also given some things from our little church that sponsored us. We
stayed with my aunt for a brief time and then she was able to get us an apartment in the
same complex that she lived in. We had nothing. We had no furniture, no dishes, nothing
and I remember in fact my mother still has it, those old donated cups, the green ceramic
cups that someone had given to her. [They were] mismatched cups. And someone had
also given her these very pretty blue and white plates, that believe it or not, I still have in
my garage. [laughs] Because they belong to my mom and she refused to let go of those
things. She said these were reminders of when we had nothing and this is what people
had or people were kind and generous enough to give us. I haven’t had the heart to sell
them or give them away because I know my mom really treasures them. I remember
having nothing to sleep on. We slept on the floor so mattresses were donated. So we slept
on a mattress. I remember my brothers being so excited that they had a mattress to sleep
on that they kept on jumping on it and the springs came undone. My mom was really mad
at them but they were just so excited because it was like a mattress right. I remember we
had our first couch that someone donated. It was like a hideous thing. It had holes in it
that we had patched up and what not but it was a couch. We didn’t have a couch before
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so that was really exciting. I remember when my mom first got her welfare check because
we didn’t have any place to sit to eat. We didn’t have tables. We didn’t have chairs.
Someone had donated some mattresses and a couch. So I remember my mom saying that
I need to go and I need to get a table and some chairs. So my cousin drove her to a
Goodwill store and I remember thinking these were the coolest chairs. I didn’t know that
they were from Goodwill at the time but they were a little beaten up but they were still in
pretty good shape with that bright yellow vinyl chair and the round vinyl table that had
the little tacks around it. I remember thinking that was the coolest tables. My favorite
bright piece of furniture in the house. I wish I had saved it because I’m sure that it would
have been really cool to keep but yeah, just not a whole lot so the little things that we got,
we really treasured and really thought it was the greatest and most awesome thing.
Payne: Did anyone meet you and your family when you arrived in Stockton?
Mai Xi: My aunt. My aunt and her family and some members of the church that she went
to, the Church of Christ in Stockton.
Payne: They were the sponsors?
Mai Xi: Uh, hum.
Payne: What were your initial impressions of Stockton?
Mai Xi: Not a whole lot. Since we didn’t have a car so we couldn’t go out. I remember
they brought us into this very tiny apartment where my aunt and her family of, like, nine
were living. So we stayed with them but it was just this apartment complex that had all
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Hmong and Laos people and I thought that it was great. [laughs] You know it’s running
water, toilets, and whatnots. You know, I thought it was just a really nice big city. I don’t
really remember whole lot about the city itself but I remember the first day I went to
school, my cousin came and picked us all up and drove us all to school. I went to second
grade and I remember walking into my class and all the kids turned around and they were
so sweet. Everyone offered me to sit next to them and it was story time so they were all
on the floor. I just remember the teacher that I had. Gosh, I can’t remember, Mrs.
Jonathan or something to that effect, was as blonde as she can be and as tan as she can be
with the brightest white teeth and the reddest lipstick I had ever seen. And I thought,
wow, this lady sure is strange looking. You know, how do you get your skin to be that
brown and your hair to be that blonde but that was my impression of American society.
Yeah, I remember being kind of led around by the little kids in my class. I remember this
little girl went to the lunch and I didn’t know what to do so she held my hand and walked
me through the lunch line. When I got to the lunch lady I didn’t have any money so she
paid for my lunch. I remember it was like a quarter or something. I thought, wow, you
know, this was pretty cool. I got to drink milk for the first time. I haven’t had milk, which
I don’t think I like initially. But the food I thought was just the most awesome thing.
What are those Poor Boys, those Hamburger Helper with the…uh…oh, what there’s a
name for it, not Poor Boy. But it’s like pasta sauce with the ground meat, flat, and the
hamburger.
Payne: I know what you’re talking about but I don’t remember the name either.
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Mai Xi: I thought those were the coolest. I love those. But anyways, not a whole lot of
impressions of Stockton but very interesting impressions of my stuff in school.
Payne: You started second grade?
Mai Xi: Uh, hum.
Payne: Alright. Did you know any English when you arrived?
Mai Xi: Uh-um. Besides I don’t think I even knew my abc’s because I had to learn that. I
remember my teacher, my second grade teacher gave me this Dr. Seuss abc book and I
remember just treasuring that book and reading it over and over again practicing my
abc’s, and trying to memorize it because I would go to Sunday school at church and they
would quiz me or my teacher would quiz me on my abc’s. It took me awhile but I think
that by the time I started second grade, well this was in May, so by the time the school
year ended and I was ready to go to third grade, I knew my abc’s. So I had a lot of really
good people who really, between the church and the school, really helped to ensure that I
learned my abc’s. By the time I was in third grade, I was reading and in fourth grade, I
was spelling. I was the top speller in my fourth grade class. The learning second language
was very hard. Actually, I remember being in ESL class and I remember we were bused
because they didn’t have the ESL teacher so we were bused down to the street, a street
down to go to the ESL Center. I guess it was a newcomer’s center. I don’t know, but we
went down there. I was there for like a month and a half to learn just very basic, abc’s
and site words and what different things were and then we had to graduate from that to
come back to our site. I was there for a good month and a half. I just remember again
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another bleach blonde lady named Mrs. Puga or Pleuga [sp???], who was the sweetest
lady. She was my ESL teacher and she really taught me how to read and how to speak
English.
Payne: What was the elementary school that you attended?
Mai Xi: I went to TC Calocino Elementary School in Stockton.
Payne: Did you or your family have any difficulties in adjusting to life here in the United
States?
Mai Xi: You know, I don’t think I did because I was so young and I think naturally I am
very flexible anyways so I just blended in. But no, my siblings had a harder time,
especially my older brother, who came in and was placed in the ninth grade. He was a
little older. He had a really, really difficult time transitioning. I just remember him and
my mom at odds a lot, a lot of frictions because he was struggling in school. He was
really unhappy about living here. Obviously, he missed my extended family, my uncles
and just really struggled. My sister also had some issues but for the most part, myself and
my brother, who was a few years older than me, for the most part we just sort of
acclimated a lot better. We immediately hooked up with some friends. He with my
cousins and I had friends at school. I think that really helped us to navigate and to
connect to America but you know, my sister and my brother had a tougher time,
especially my brother. My mom surprisingly did real well. I would of thought that she
would have the toughest time but I think that she just really embraced the church, really
embraced the people who sponsored us. In fact she’s still very good friends with the
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people who sponsored us, and really connected well with them even though she didn’t
speak a word of English, really had a desire to learn and so spent a lot of time, they did a
lot of bible study. In fact, two of the gals from church came out a lot to visit us and to
make sure that we had everything we needed. I don’t know if they were assigned to care
for us but I knew that my mom was very grateful that they came out, taught her how to
use the fire, the stove, taught her how to refrigerate meat, taught her how to use the
bathroom, whatnot. I remember that there was a time in those first few days when we
didn’t use the bathroom because we were so scared. I remember my aunt had to reassure
us, look you are not going to get sucked into the toilet, you’re fine. Because I don’t think
anyone sat, I think we all kind of stood. Oh my gosh, what were we going to do. But for
the most part, I think that it was a pretty easy transition because my aunt was here. I think
that really having my aunt and staying with my aunt for the first few days really helped
us to navigate the system.
Payne: Uh, hum. What’s your economic condition on arrival?
Mai Xi: Like did we have any money?
Payne: Uh, hum.
Mai Xi: We didn’t have any money. We had nothing. Like I said my mom gave all of her
silver when we were crossing the Mekong, so she had nothing. If it were not for my aunt
and all the hand me outs and donations from the church, I don’t think that we would have
made it. But my aunt really took us in and really set us and got us paperwork for welfare.
Her sons really drove my mom around and made sure that we got what we needed.
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Payne: Do you know if your family received any form of help from any refugee
resettlement organizations besides the church that sponsored you?
Mai Xi: You know what, I don’t know but come to think of it, one of my mom’s oldest
friends is the executive director of World Vision or World Relief, one of those
organizations that work with refugee resettlement. At the time I think that she was
working there as well. We might have. I remember my mom said that we’re getting a
thousand dollars but I’m not sure if that’s from welfare or if that was an one time chunk
of money that we were given to resettle. So maybe, but again that was not ever made real
clear to me.
Payne: Were there certain people or groups that made you feel unwelcome?
Mai Xi: Oh yeah. I remember going to school and being told over and over again in the
playground: “Cambodians go back home” by the white kids. The school that I went to
was not very diverse. There was a nice pocket of Southeast Asian, Cambodian, Laos but
the majority were white. For the most part a little bit more affluent because it was
definitely was not our neighborhood school. We were bused in to the school. And just
being taunted by kids if you were waiting by the tetherball and being taunted and being
pushed out of the way and just mistreated if we were walking down the street. People
shouting out “Chinks” or Cambodians. For some reason it was Cambodians stop eating
our dogs. Go back to Cambodia. That was the one big thing because we’re not
Cambodians but obviously it didn’t matter because they clumped all of us together.
Payne: So they just assumed that you were Cambodians?
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Mai Xi: Yeah. The whole thing about eating dogs. Cambodian go back to your own
country; that was really, for a long time that was really painful to try to understand where
they were coming from because it just make sense as a kid to constantly have to say I’m
not Cambodian, I don’t eat dogs but I’m so over it.
Payne: [laughs] But at that time it was difficult.
Mai Xi: Yeah, at that time it was very difficult.
Payne: Overall, what were the most difficult aspects of the transition to life in the United
States?
Mai Xi: I think being taunted. That was hard even though I think I was lucky because I
immediately connected with my classmates. My classmates would come to my rescue. I
actually built a few friendships with some Southeast Asian kids even though there
weren’t that many of us at my school. We all stayed together. In fact my best friend was
this really big Cambodian girl, who was very tough and would basically stand up to
anybody. I remember her punching this kid because he was going on about eating dogs,
you go back where you come from. Just being taunted, not being able to walk down the
street like we would walk from our apartment to what used to be Alpha Beta. I don’t
know if you know the store before Fry’s was called Alpha Beta. We would walk. We
didn’t have a car so we walked to get our groceries and on the way back people would
shout out ethnic slurs as they were driving by or sometimes they would throw things. I
remember stuff being thrown at us. Again just not feeling safe when we were on the
street. In fact, I think that was one of the reasons my mom decided she needed to learn to
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drive because it was too hard to walk back and forth being taunted, being shouted at go
back to our country. My mom decided she needed to learn to drive so she could take us
places without feeling like we were going to be attacked when we walked on public
streets. That and also not having money. I remember being so poor. There were times
when all we had to eat was rice and eggs. My mom saying, gosh this is better than what
we had in Laos. I remember thinking but I get to eat hamburgers at school, why can’t I
have that at home. Looking forward to school because it was the best meal of the day
until the first of the month when my mom would get her check then we would go and buy
groceries. You’d buy a few chunks of meat and a big bag of rice. That was supposed to
last the whole month by the time rent was paid. Not having new clothes, that was the
other thing seeing all your friends with new clothes and shoes. I remember one of the
wishes or dreams that I had as kid those first few years was I wished I had a pair of shoes
for every day of the week. I wished I had a pair of clean underwear and socks for just five
days a week. That’s all I wished for, right. Of course, now I have more than I need. I
remember being like in second, third, fourth grade just going, “Why can’t I just have
things.” Why do I have to keep washing them? I wash them. I’d go to school. I’d come
home, I’d wash my dirty socks and my underwear; dry them out so I could wear it in
three days later. They just didn’t have enough.
Payne: Well, it’s almost 3:30. I do still have a lot more questions.
Mai Xi: I can go for another 10 more minutes.
Payne: Another 10 more minutes. Okay.
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Mai Xi: I’ll talk less.
Payne: [laughs] If you don’t have time, we can just reschedule for another time. Would
that be better?
Mai Xi: You know, I have another 10 more minutes. We can see how far we can go.
Payne: Okay, sounds good. Did you pursue American citizenship? Why or why not? How
soon after arrival?
Mai Xi: Actually, I did when I turned 18. My siblings had done it when they turned 18 on
their own. My mom didn’t try to pursue it for us. Actually my mom got her citizenship
before I did. I just decided that, well, we are not going back to Laos so we might as well
establish our residency, citizenship because at the time I was going to go to college. I
needed to just feel grounded. I felt like I needed to really just establish myself as a US
citizen and be an American. Also I was looking at opportunities, as well in terms of just
being able to do more. I felt like at some point I wanted to travel and I would be limited.
Also the fact that my siblings one by one, I think both my oldest brother and sister had
gotten their citizenship. I am trying to remember my other brother, so it was kind of a
natural thing to do.
Payne: Have you or your family returned to visit Laos or Thailand?
Mai Xi: My mom has. She is the only one.
Payne: To return back to…
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Mai Xi: To Laos. In fact she just went two months ago, three months ago and had a blast.
Payne: You went to China but not Laos?
Mai Xi: Right, I went to China. I went to the southern tip where I think it’s called [a word
in Chinese] according to those people you can throw a stone and reach Laos. So I saw it
in the distance but I didn’t go. Yeah, well, I didn’t have a visa. I guess you have to have a
visa to go and I didn’t have a visa.
Payne: Have you stayed in touch with anyone from Laos or Thailand?
Mai Xi: No. I think we have relatives. I think my mom went and stayed with some
relatives but I personally have not stayed in touch with them.
Payne: Do you plan to or would you like to return to live permanently in Laos?
Mai Xi: Probably not. As my daughter says, “Mom, I don’t think we’ll survive in Laos.
We’re too lazy.” Maybe to visit, not to live.
Payne: Right. What do you think are some of the important ways immigration changed
you and/or your family?
Mai Xi: Huge. I think my life would be dramatically different if we didn’t come. I know
that I would definitely have more than two kids and maybe not by choice. I know I would
definitely have gotten married younger. Certainly not be given the freedom to choose. I
feel like I’ve been very lucky and very blessed and fortunately there was this war. But
what came out of that is that my mother, who had the courage to say this is a chance for
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my kids. We needed better. She had the foresight to bring us here and to ensure that
education was the focus for us because it also could have gone really badly once we got
here. My mom is just an amazing woman, very strong, very determined, very progressive
in her thinking. So in a lot of ways we’re very lucky. I don’t know that I would be alive
in Laos, honestly. With the things that we’ve heard with the second wave of refugees, I
don’t know that I would have made it out. I don’t know, if I’d be connected with my
family the way that I am now. So very fortunate and very blessed every day to be here.
Payne: I suppose the move may have had both positive and negative aspects for you.
What are some of the negative consequences of the move for you and for your family?
Mai Xi: Honestly, for me as you tell the history unfortunately, I should speak Hmong
better and I don’t. I should know the history a lot more and I don’t. Part of that is again,
and I’m not blaming my mom. She did a fantastic job, but we were so honed in and
focused on education and learning English and really assimilating that for the most part
we didn’t pick up on the Hmong as much as we should have because we didn’t really
grow up in the Hmong community as we should have. So that is the one drawback that
was not a benefit to us. Certainly it’s not too late. I can still pick it up and I have.
Working here at Luther Burbank has been phenomenal. Talking Hmong here, I have
learned Hmong talking to the parents because part of that is practice as well because all I
did was speak English growing up from the minute I could learn English that’s what I
used predominately. At home I was talking to my mom in English because she also
wanted to learn English.
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Payne: So the whole family was…
Mai Xi: So the whole family spoke more English than we did Hmong.
Payne: What are some of the positive aspects of the move?
Mai Xi: Opportunity to grow personally and educationally and just the vast amount of
opportunity that has been afforded is the biggest benefit. Certainly, the quality of life and
that has just been amazing thing for me. Sometimes I sit in my house and I think of how
poor I was and I think how poor I could have been in Laos and I just extremely blessed
and feel very fortunate to have been afforded an education where I can learn and get a
degree and find a good paying job and be able to take care of my family. Those are
definitely the benefits.
Payne: Is there anything that you missed about Laos or Thailand or maybe your mom
since you don’t remember?
Mai Xi: I think the freedom. Here on the one hand everything is great, opportunities and
whatnot but there are a lot of restrictions and rules and regulations about what you can
and cannot do. There seems to be in Laos a certain freedom. You cultivate the land; you
get what you get. There is something very nice to that simplicity that we don’t have. In
here I think it is so fast paced we forget about the simple things in life. I would say that.
I’ve heard the pho is really good, the street food and whatnot. Yeah, just the simple life.
Payne: Can you tell me the names and birth years of your siblings?
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Mai Xi: I can’t give you the birth years. So I’m the youngest and the next one to me his
three years older. Then my sister is three years older than him and my brother is two or
three years older than my sister. And so Ka Bee and Nou and Ntxw, although he just got
a different name.
Payne: He just changed his name?
Mai Xi: Yeah, and I can’t remember it now. I can’t say it right anyway. It’s the older
name.
Payne: The Hmong older name when he got married?
Mai Xi. Well, he got really sick and they had to change his name and I can’t remember
what they changed it to.
Payne: Were all of you born in Laos?
Mai Xi: Uh, hum.
Payne: Can you describe your education here in the United States?
Mai Xi: Very fortunate. I went to school in Stockton and graduated from Edison High
School in south Stockton. Then moved on to four years at Pepperdine University. Earned
my BA there and from there I went to China and taught for a little bit and then I got my
Masters and credential at Sac State.
Payne: How did you fare in the classroom?
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Mai Xi: I think I did pretty well. I was very studious and very focused. Having my mom
beat into me that “you better learn and get a better education or you are going to be as
poor as me and suffer.” I think I was a very good student.
Payne: Where you active in school outside of the classroom?
Mai Xi: In high school, I think I was. I played sports. I did some volunteer projects and I
belonged to different clubs here and there because I knew I needed to in order to go to
college. I wouldn’t say I was “very” active but I was somewhat active.
Payne: What chores did you do as a child?
Mai Xi: Well, what didn’t I do. I cooked. I cleaned. I did laundry every weekend.
Everything that a Hmong girl was expected to do, I did. Everything my brothers didn’t
do, I did-my sister and I, my sister and I we shared. At one point my sister rebelled
because she was so sick of being the mother and so my mom turned to me and said you
need to do these things because your sister has done her share. I basically cooked and
cleaned from the time I was 12. I learned how to make rice when I was 11 and so from
there on I was making the meals.
Payne: Did your mom monitor or set rules about whom you could play with?
Mai Xi: Somewhat, obviously she didn’t say you can’t play with so and so but she said
you need to pick people who are like you and like us to play with. But she never really
specified who I could. I didn’t bring a friend home. The people that I brought home were
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family members and people who lived in the apartment complex but my school friends
didn’t come home.
Payne: What were your mom’s aspirations for you when you were growing up?
Mai Xi: School, School, School. For her it was grilling in the fact that my father believed
in education and we also needed to aim high. College was the end goal and that we
needed to do well so that we wouldn’t have to suffer like she had so we could also help
her and take care of her. It was always very much about school. I remember I came home
one day with an A minus and she flipped out. She said, “You know what you can earn an
A and an A minus is not acceptable.” So with that, I went and got my A.
Payne: [laughs] What were your own aspirations for yourself as a youth?
Mai Xi: I think I was so conditioned by my mom that I needed to do well in school in
order to have a better life and also being poor is a great motivator. I always kinda knew
that I didn’t want to be poor. Also it helped that my mom cleaned houses, that is what she
did for a living. She would take me to these mansions and I would walk around as I’m
cleaning I would day dream. Wow, one day I could have this house but my mom would
say the only way you can have this house is if you go to college and you get a good
paying job because so and so is a doctor and a lawyer and a president of this and that. The
way they made it is by going to school. Sort of intrinsically, I was motivated to do that.
For me it was always about focusing on school. I had no other options. So I kind of have
to get going. I don’t know how much more you have. We can schedule for another time.
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Payne: Okay, let’s go ahead and do that. Let’s go ahead and stop the interview.
[End of First Interview, Beginning of New Interview]
Today is April 29, 2010 and I am here with my Mai Xi Lee at Luther Burbank High
School. This is the second part of the interview with Mai Xi and continues from the
interview with her on April 26, 2011. Mai Xi, thank you for agreeing to finish the
interview with me today. During our last interview we talked a little bit about your
aspirations as a youth and about how your mom has helped to inspire you. Can you also
talk a little bit about if she had any problems finding work here in the United States when
she first arrived?
Mai Xi: Yeah, it was very difficult not speaking the language and not knowing anything
and anyone besides my aunt and her family was very hard. She initially went through the
church. Got to take some ESL classes. Just to start to fine tune her language to learn her
English. Then of course through a welfare-to-work program she had to go and learn a
craft or skill so she went and I think [she] took sewing classes. She did that for two years
as I recalled and even after having her certification it was very difficult because she
didn’t speak English enough and well enough to do job interviews. I remember her being
really frustrated because she couldn’t find the kind of job, obviously, that she would’ve
liked to. Eventually through the school and different connections and friends she was able
to find work in another town-not in Stockton but in Manteca sewing in a company that
makes seat cushions. I remember it was very hard for her because she would leave very
early in the morning. Manteca is not that far away but from Stockton it is still a good half
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an hour/35 minutes. She would wake up really early and she would go and the machines
they used they had to stand the whole day and I just remember hearing her come home
tired and her legs were sore and just thinking how difficult it would be to stand all day on
your feet. But for her it was a job and for her it was providing food and shelter and
clothing for us. She did what she had to do. At some point they started to downsize and
they laid off a bunch of people and she was one of the people that was laid off. That’s
really difficult for us as. She had to find another job but in the interim she started
cleaning houses so she again through connections with different friends and church
members she got linked up with different people so she started cleaning houses and then
once she was able to get back into sewing so she found another job sewing. But it still
was very difficult for her just making ends meet with the sewing job; even cleaning
houses on the weekend and at night still was really difficult for her. So was finding a job
difficult? Yes and No. My mom has been pretty fortunate in that she was really embraced
by the church, really embraced by people who really cared for her and really made sure
that she was led in the right direction. I’m sure in some ways it wasn’t as hard for my
mom as it would be for a lot of other people.
Payne: How long did you continue to live at home?
Mai Xi: Well, I lived at home until I went to college and in fact I lived at home even after
I went to college. [laughs] Probably, I think it was just for a summer and then my mom in
fact lived in Stockton and then moved to Minnesota the fall I when I come back from
college. So from there I actually moved up here to stay with my brother who was living at
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the time in Sacramento and stayed with him for a year and worked here. After that life
became a little fragmented. I went overseas and taught and then came back and realized I
couldn’t live with anybody else. I needed to live by myself. That’s sort of the beginning
of me being completely independent. I think I still leaned on my mom quite a bit even
after that for financial support and resources. I think I had all her old furniture and all of
her dishes and pots and pans for about another good ten years after that so, and her car. I
was pretty well provided for. So not completely independent but she did leave her car
when she went to Minnesota which was very good for me. I have always been blessed
and have been very lucky to have my mom be that rock and that foundation. So life even
though I can deal with, well was very hard, in a lot of ways I had it really easy compared
to even my siblings or other first generation Hmong. Part of that is being the youngest I
got all their hand me downs, which isn’t bad sometimes, right. Also I think by the time
my mom got to me she had learned so much and not only about raising kids but about
raising kids in the United States. She went through her trials and tribulations and fights
with my sister and my brothers. I think eventually she got to me she realized either she
changed some of her parenting styles or she would have a very difficult time with me
because apparently I was also the most difficult. Being an independent thinker I guess it
is what it is. [laughs]
Payne: What is your current marital status?
Mai Xi: I’m married.
Payne: Do you have any children?
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Mai Xi: I do. I have a seven year old and a four year old.
Payne: Okay. What’s your husband’s name?
Mai Xi: Christopher Jensen.
Payne: Oh, he’s not Hmong?
Mai Xi: No. It is actually pretty funny because when I get people coming into my office a
lot of parents will walk in and the first question that they ask is what’s your husband’s
last name? And I usually say, well…he’s a Jensen and they’ll say, oh, well that’s not
Hmong. Yes, it’s not. Then I get silence after that so that’s in itself telling.
Payne: Can you tell the names of your children?
Mai Xi: Sure my daughter is Tas Kaj Siab and son is Ewen [not sure of spelling of
names].
Payne: Can you describe how you raise your children?
Mai Xi: Wow, it is interesting I think that I had this plan but I never reflected on how I
raise my kids. I think that for the most part I pull from what I know from my mom.
Especially when it comes to issues of character development. Growing up with my mom
it was always about being a good person and having good ethics and having good moral
values. Those were the most important characteristics that she really wanted us to
develop aside from being fully educated. I try to impart that to my kids. Being a really
good person, having really good values and treating people well. Certainly treating
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people the way you would like to be treated. I mimic my mom in those values but on the
flip side is that I recognized that my kids are independent thinkers and I recognize they
are unique and they are different and I do need to cater their personalities. I will address
my son in different ways than I would address my daughter. I remember my mom
treating us all in some ways equally. If you can do this then you can do this. Why aren’t
you doing what he or she is doing. What is wrong with you? So I try not to compare. I try
not to unilaterally use the same methods because my daughter is very analytical and to
some degrees thoughtful. My son is very reactionary and very physical. So the strategies
that I am going to use for my daughter are not going to work for my son and vice versa.
Yes, I think I am a fair parent. I try to be as fair as I can be issuing natural consequences
and being as consistent as I can be in terms of discipline and really also trying to get my
kids to understand why. The key thing to really, I think, to changing behavior is to getting
them to understand why their actions are not the correct actions and correcting that and
redirecting them in a positive way. The other thing I think I do differently in terms of
being a parent that I remember my mom doing is the hand. [laughs] Using the hand—
Okay, come here. Physical discipline is never in my consciousness and I’m very, very
conscious of that. Maybe it was from being hit one too many times as a kid. [laughs] But
I have always felt that nothing good comes out of that and if you’re teaching your kids to
be good people and to be people, people and to be thoughtful people then when we want
to discipline them using thoughtful methods as opposed to using slaps on the wrist or
something else on the buttocks. [laughs] I won’t go into what my mom used but I also
think I’m pretty strict and I’ m very clear about my expectations with my kids. They
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know what I expect and they know that when they misbehave there are consequences.
My son, my four year old is still learning. He gets lots of time outs. We’re very patient
with him and he believes he’s very patient with us but we’ll see who wins this battle.
He’s very, very strong willed. I think that over time if we’re consistent and we stick to
our guns he’ll be okay. So fair, teaching ethical values and just being very consistent.
Payne: What schools did your children attend?
Mai Xi: Currently, my daughter goes to Elliot Ranch Elementary in Elk Grove and my
son attends an in-home day care, which also offers a preschool curriculum.
Payne: Do you want them to pursue higher education?
Mai Xi: Absolutely. In fact my kids a first taste of their college tour this summer when
my nephew came down, he’s a junior in high school, and he really wanted to see
Stanford. I thought let’s make a big trip out of this and take all the little kids too. We put
everyone in out eight passenger van and drove down to Stanford and they had a great
time. The funny thing is that…they are very curious about what goes on at college.
What’s this thing called college. Obviously, I am trying to entice them with the things
that I know would appeal to them. My kids love, love, love food. Love the ability to pick
whatever they want to eat. Of course there’s me telling them they have to eat their
vegetables. They have to eat. So one of the thing that I said to my daughter is so when
you go to college, mommy won’t be there to tell you what to eat and how to eat it and
how much and often to eat so the one thing that you will have is the ability to choose
whatever you want to eat. Her little eyes just lit up, “Ah, you mean I can eat ice cream
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all day long if I want”? I said, “I would rather you not but yes you could choose to have
ice cream all day long if that is what you want.” So she was so excited when I said we
were going to Stanford. She said, “Momma for that one day can we pretend we are in
college and we can eat whatever we want?” I said, “why not—the cafeteria is open and
you can get whatever you want.” When we get there, everything is closed. [laughs]
Except for Jamba Juice. They had a nice little eatery, Jamba Juice, fish sandwich shop, so
I said, “Okay, you can choose whatever you want.” [laughs] Of course they chose Jamba
Juice and the sweetest and biggest they could get. My kids do know the notion of college
and we talk about it as much as we can. They ask me where I went to college. They ask
their dad and they’ve asked me about careers. My daughter is very intrigued with
different careers. She is always asking me what I do on a regular basis. I’ve brought them
to work a few times and they’re very curious about learning. My daughter especially. She
is very much a thinker and she wants to know how things happen, and exactly why things
happen and sort of what leads to the next step. So I’m hopeful that, that will continue and
that will propel her naturally to go to college, as well as my son. Although, he likes
garbage trucks and he wants to be a garbage man; not that there anything wrong with that
but we said you can do whatever you want as long as you get your college degree first.
So cross our fingers.
Payne: So you decided to settle in the Sacramento region because your mom moved?
Mai Xi: Well, she moved…actually, I got a job here at Sac City and I also met my
husband here so natural progression. [laughs] Sort of forced me to stay here.
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Payne: Can you describe the local Hmong community at the time of your arrival?
Mai Xi: In Sacramento or in Stockton?
Payne: Let’s start with Stockton.
Mai Xi: Stockton. I think we were so insulated because when we moved to Stockton we
moved to an apartment complex with a lot of Hmong people and a lot Laotian people and
Cambodian people as well. I think it was our little Southeast Asian village in Stockton.
For me what I knew of Stockton was that little apartment complex. We didn’t go out a
whole lot because we were scared. We didn’t know how people would react to us.
Obviously, some of the experiences at school and being called “dog eater” and
“Cambodian go back to your country.” So we stayed very much within the apartment
complex community. I felt everyone was really supportive. We were all refugees. We
were all immigrants and we were coming, in some cases, horrific experiences and so
there was a lot of support, sort of a richness of language and culture and sharing of stories
and food. But outside of that I didn’t have that much of an experience. We had family in
Fresno and Modesto and we would travel down to go see them and there were small
communities that existed then but I don’t remember there being a whole lot of Hmong
people unless it was the New Year time. At the New Year we would go to every New
Year that occurred-Stockton, Modesto. We would make our way down the Central Valley
and I remember feeling very comforted and very familiar when New Years comes around
initially. Initially the first few years, it felt really good to be around a lot of Hmong
people. Then as I grew older my thinking changed. I think part of that was also where I
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went to school. Like I shared with you, even though we all lived in that apartment
complex we were all bused out to different schools and some of us went to school that
were very not Asian dominated like the school that I went to was more affluent and had a
lot of White kids and very few Asian kids. I think for me my acculturation process was a
little different say my friends who went to predominately Southeast Asian neighborhood
schools. I think my sense of comfort then as I got older within Hmong functions and the
New Years started to shift. I didn’t dress as much as I used to Hmong clothes. I didn’t do
the pov pob [tossing ball] and part of, too, is just growing up and being an adolescent and
feeling very weird. I was not known as the pretty one, my sister was. In fact she was a
beauty queen. Having that label also of being the smarty, nerdy, fatty one so I didn’t want
to engage in that because I’m not going to attract the boys, why bother, right. When the
boys did come over to see us, it was to see sister. So part of that, maybe, was a little bit of
resentment towards, maybe, Hmong men who looked at beauty in a very superficial light.
For me being chubby and not being so attractive I didn’t get that attention. So I think I
just withdrew. My sense of comfort, my sense of familiarity wasn’t as much in the
Hmong community because I wasn’t really as accepted in my eyes, whereas I was very
much embraced by the mainstream community because of, for me anyways, my intellect.
Or so I believe, right. [laughs] So a lot of my friends, I mean were non-Hmong and my
best friend was Cambodian in elementary. In middle school my best friend was
Vietnamese and then in high school my best friend was Laotian. Even though I had a
really, really good friend who was Hmong she was kind of the non-traditional Hmong
too. So you know again it’s that assimilation, acculturation process and finding your
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identify. You know, growing up and being 14, 15 it’s just in a very funky place I think
for me. I went far out of what your question initially asked me but it took me a long time
for me to come back around full circle to really embracing, accepting Hmong culture and
my identify as being Hmong and understanding what it means to be Hmong. Now I think
I am Hmong, Hmong but, you know, who knows.
Payne: What about the community here in Sacramento?
Mai Xi: You know the system is very good, strong Hmong Community. You know I
work in this neighborhood where 30% of our students are Hmong and so we work a lot
with them. You know the parent that come here, they are hard working parents. They are
very concerned about their kids and again just struggling just to get by. There is also this
sense I think that the school bares a minimal responsibility to helping them and we do
and we need to but it is difficult to get parents and the community to meet us half way in
terms of really working with what their kids do and I am not just talking about the
Hmong community. I am talking about this community in general. I think we have very,
very good solid families who been here for a few generations. In fact a lot of these kids
are second, some even third generation Hmong and their parents are with the best
intentions work very hard to make sure they have the basic needs. Unfortunately, with
that, you know, the basic needs are there but the time and attention aren’t there and we
see some of that in the behavior in some of our students. Although, we also have parents
who are here every day working so hard to make sure that their kids are in school so
that’s really encouraging. We have a few agencies within the summer quarter that work
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with our families Hmong Women’s Heritage down the street, Lao Family, Southeast
Asian Resources; there’s a lot of services for the Hmong Community. You know in
terms of festivities and us getting together obviously there is the Cal Expo New Year and
Gibson Ranch, although I don’t think they did that last year. That is always a really good
opportunity to engage and mingle and mix with Hmong and increasingly so non-Hmong
who are interested in learning about the Hmong culture and Hmong community. So that
is always very important you know. Gosh, what else? A lot of Hmong businesses you
know popping up, you know a lot of people, entrepreneurs, people are really looking to
engage in the economic growth especially here in south Sacramento. I am not too familiar
with north Sacramento. I think we have a very strong community that has a lot of really
good potential to grow economically and politically. We just have to somehow sort of
connect and re-group and get some level of organization and then I think that you know
that we have a voice and could be a force to be reckoned with especially in this particular
quarter, the Florin-Mack Road quarter.
Payne: Can you describe some of the Hmong businesses around here?
Mai Xi: Yeah. There are a few clothing stores, a few markets, and I think a few
restaurants in and around the area but mostly I think it’s markets food chains, a few real
estate agents, insurance companies. We’re not as organized as Minnesota I have noticed.
It’d be great you know once we build some capacity, leadership and organization to have
what they have in Minnesota but you know we are growing in numbers.
Payne: What is your current religious practice?
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Mai Xi: Currently, nothing. You know, I grew up obviously as a little kid with
Shamanism and then once we were sponsored by the church and we came here, we
converted to Christianity. My mom just really felt that we either stay shaman, practicing
Shamanism or go into Christianity. It was really hard for her to without my uncles around
to do the whole Shaman thing so she decided that we needed to adopt a new religion so
you know I was baptized. In fact, my whole family was baptized into the Church of
Christ. So we’re Christians for many, many years. In fact that is one of the reasons I
went to Pepperdine University because it’s a private Christian school. But you know what
happens in college, right, you start to have self-doubt, start to discover identity, and new
belief system and so it’s been kind of a long process of discovering really what are my
beliefs you know, what is it that I believe in oppose to I was told to believe in. So you
know I still consider myself a Christian at heart, just not a practicing Christian. But I am
very open to what other possibilities there might be. I talk to my kids about God. I talk to
my kids about Jesus and what I know being a Christian but we don’t go to church and we
don’t practice Shamanism, even though they have gone to Hmong households where they
see it happening and they have asked and I tell them it is part of the Hmong culture but
right now I think we are just trying to figure what is a good fit before we introduce our
kids because we don’t want to introduce them to something that we are not completely a
hundred percent into and then to turn around and change that. So just trying to figure out
what works for us right now.
Payne: What Hmong cultural traditions have been most important for you to retain?
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Mai Xi: I think for me really respecting my elders, really respecting the family structure.
Those are really, really important elements for me, the family unit. Also trying to
maintain my language. It’s been really hard for me because obviously my husband
doesn’t speak Hmong so trying to impart that to my kids has been challenging at best
because I ‘m also not at home with them enough to really be consistent with them
teaching Hmong. So even though that is important to me I must say unfortunately my
kids don’t speak Hmong. They can speak and understand phases. My daughter’s extent to
speaking Hmong is aj yav [Hmong slang word]. You know she thinks she is speaking
Hmong. My son thinks because he knows mov nplaum [sticky rice] he speaks Hmong but
I need to do better obviously. So language, I think. Also getting my kids to understand
the history that’s really important to me. To maintain that connection to how it is that the
Hmong people got here and that legacy through the Secret Wars, where we came from
before that by way of China. Just to have a sense of lineage and sense of connection
because I remember as a kid growing up, you know, people would ask me, “Well, what is
Hmong? I don’t know, we lived here and here. Well, is it Mongolian? Well. No… it’s
not. Well, then you don’t have a country. No…we do. Well, you know, it’s not a country
that’s on the map, right?” So that was really difficult for me because it, for a kid when
other kids are saying that to you, it sort of like pulling the rug from right under your feet.
You’re really unsettled. So I don’t want my kids to feel like they don’t have a homeland
or a connection to history, to lineage. So it is really important for me to impart that and I
have begun that conversation with my daughter and my son is too young so she can make
the connection and re-tell stories about growing up in Laos or what I remember. But
169
usually it is my sister telling stories and my daughter loves stories about eating fruit,
bananas, and mangos and swimming in the river and playing with the wild animals. So
just trying to maintain those stories so my kids can have something to hold onto, as you
know, as the older generation start to leave. The other thing that I want my daughter to
get to do is learning paj ntaub because I learned it. I could do it but I feel like I need to
impart that to my daughter because one day I am not going to be here. I want her to
maintain that and, yes, it is a little old fashion but it’s still such an important part of who
we are that certainly I hope that she can learn and maintain. I also think just
understanding even though you don’t practice Shamanism and whatnot understanding
those cultural nuances and really maintaining that because if you don’t understand why
we’re connected to our spirit then it’s very hard to connect to our relatives here. At some
point I’ve been telling myself that I am going to put together a family tree. It’s going to
be a crazy family tree but just to have lineage and some connection with history because I
think that is very important for kids to have just the grounding.
Payne: What crafts or foods or holidays are most essential to you?
Mai Xi: Gosh every year we have to go to Hmong New Year because we have to go eat
sticky rice, mov nplaum, and chicken and papaya and for me that is it. [both laughs] My
kids love sticky rice. They just eat it up like there is no tomorrow. They love drumstick.
They will not eat chicken, if you cut it up. If you get the whole chicken drumstick and
sticky rice; [they] love it.
Payne: Do you still go to all of the Hmong New Year’s or just here in Sacramento?
170
Mai Xi: You know I used to go to one in Fresno but it was becoming too hard when I had
my kids. It was too cold so I didn’t want to take them out there so the mainly it’s just the
one here in Sacramento.
Payne: Do you attend any other community events?
Mai Xi: When I use to sit on the board at Hmong Women’s Heritage as a board member I
did but I have not because of late. Because of my job and kids and now they set really
busy schedules between Taekwondo and Tee Ball and Girl Scouts and soon swimming
and soccer it’s just challenging. With that perpetual mom guilt because I am not at home
enough to make dinner and not home often enough to attend these events, I try to be
home as much as I can so it’s really hard for me to go to a lot of community events. With
that said, if there is something that I believe in that is important that I can be of support
for one of my colleagues or community event I will go. My husband and I have attended
various events in the Hmong community.
Payne: Have you joined any other Hmong organizations?
Mai Xi: No, just Hmong Women Heritage has been the main one. I was approached a
while ago to help out with the Hmong New Year but you know it’s not something that I
can devote a lot of my time to so you know Hmong Women’s Heritage has been the
primary organization that I have been linked with.
Payne: You talked a little bit about your education during our last interview, is your
master’s the highest level attended?
171
Mai Xi: Yes.
Payne: When you were in college what did you intend to do with your degree?
Mai Xi: Wow, I wanted to be an entertainment lawyer, initially. I mean, what do you
want to do when you grow up – I mean an entertainment lawyer but that quickly sizzled
out the first semester I in college. I actually applied for and wanted to be clinical
psychologist and in fact applied to a few P.h. D programs on the east coast and actually
had an interview which was very eye opening. I went to Boston University and
interviewed for a program in Psycho Dynamic counseling and realized quickly that was
not what I wanted to do. So there went my degree so okay what do I do now. This is not
what I thought I was going to be. I took going overseas to China and teaching to realize
education was really where I needed to go. So sort of serendipity in terms of going
overseas, just being out of the country and getting involved with the Chinese boarding
school and being a teacher really gave me a renewed perspective. Psychology turned into
teaching and then of course counseling and now admin.
Payne: Why did you choose to get a higher education?
Mai Xi: For me I don’tt think I did not have an option not to. In fact my mom still bugs
me today about getting my doctorate and that was the goal that she had for me. Like I
said and everything I have ever done has been this push for my mom and of course, I
willing engaged in the process. But I don’t think I had a choice. I think it was just kind
of this natural progression that I needed to do to want to improve myself to be able to
explore all the options and opportunities that were available. I don’t like being
172
complacent and I don’t like being bored. So it is what is the next thing I can do and how
can I next challenge myself. So that is why.
Payne: As a Hmong women, did you face any challenges going to college?
Mai Xi: I think yes. I think I was too dumb and naïve to realize there were challenges at
the time because I fought my way through it. I think one of the hardest things that I
encountered was when I initially got accepted and said I would go to Pepperdine which is
six hours away from Stockton. My mom said, “No. You are either going to go to UOP in
Stockton or you are going to go to Delta College and then transfer to Sac State and go
where your sister and brothers are going to go.” I said, “No. I need to go where I think I
need to grow.” We fought a lot. She disagreed not because she disagreed that I needed to
grow she was concerned that I would be so far away and people were telling her that if
you allow your daughter to go that far away they would come back a different person
then they would not be Hmong any more. Which maybe it is true but we won’t confirm
that rumor. So my mom was adamant that I couldn’t go. I just said to her it is my choice
and I’m going to disagree with you and I know you are unhappy but I need to do what I
need to do. We didn’t talk for a little bit but eventually I think she came around and
realized that I wasn’t going to do what she told me to do even though I had been doing
what she had told me to do. I needed to do this and it was hard for her but she needed to
let go. That was really tough for my mom, who even though she is very progressive in
her thinking, she held on really strong to a lot of Hmong traditions especially when it
comes to gender roles and the girls’ role in the family. Very, Very traditional when it
173
comes to that. In the end she just said, look, I don’t agree but I will support you. So that
was a big challenge and a big obstacle for me.
Payne: So do you plan on going for your doctorate later?
Mai Xi: You know, “Yes.” I say that with caution because when I start talking about
something it happens and so I try not to talk about it too much because my kids are too
young and I can’t do that to them right now but the conversation has come up a few times
in the last few months. That’s a goal. That’s definitely a goal. My husband’s completely
supportive and would do whatever makes me happy. But right now, it’s one more
sacrifice I would have to do if I wanted it. It is a goal maybe in the next ten years.
Payne: I’m a little bit curious about your relationship with your husband. Does any of
your family have any problems with this?
Mai Xi: Oh yes. It is very interesting when I started dating him I didn’t have any notion
about marriage or whatnot. It was funny because he was a teacher at the time – he taught
at the same school with me and I taught at the same school where my oldest brother was
teaching. So trying to keep it a secret was very hard and eventually he had to know we
were dating. I was kind of nervous. I wasn’t sure what my brother would say but my
brother shocked me by going, “Listen it is your life. You’re 25 years old, do what you
need to do.” Okay good. First step. Then as things got a little more serious he proposed to
me. He hadn’t met anybody except for my brother. He hadn’t met my mom, who was
living in Minnesota, my sister, my whole family. So when he did propose I realized, oh
great, I had to tell my family. So I called my mom thinking she was going to raise a stink
174
and really just not be okay with it. She shocked me to death by saying, “You’re 25. You
are old enough to make your own decisions. That’s fine.” Okay, very accepting. I just
went my gosh, I’d better run with this. She was great. My immediate family was great.
My sister [was] very open; everyone was awesome. But I was most surprised by is the
extended family. In fact I had an aunt who said I forbid you to do that. I was very
shocked but well, I shouldn’t say I was shocked. I was surprised because I was older. I
would’ve maybe not been so surprised or shocked if I was 18 or 19. I felt like I was this
old, I had my job, I was independent. So for someone to say to me “I forbid you to do
that” was very surprising. Because I had so much support from my mom and really she
rallied around me. She told people “zip up. She’s happy. That’s all there is to it.” She
talked to my uncle because of course we had to go meet with my uncle. He had to go nqis
tsev hais nav, which means you have to go ask for my hand in marriage from my uncle.
Of course at the time there was the issue of the dowry, right. So I had prepped him
already and he was fully prepared to go and pay. But obviously, we wanted to make sure
that he could pay. Right, though that was going to be asked [laughs] So my mom was
great in sort of planting in my uncle that typically you would ask for or what would,
should be asked for. But this is what they can pay so this is what you are going to ask for.
My uncle just did what she told him to do. It was the easiest wedding ceremony, I guess
you can call it. It took all of fifteen minutes. Then we ate and we were done. That was the
easy part. But I was surprised at my wedding. You know you get money as the presents. I
was surprised at some of the comments that were made. I think that people were…not
that they were not surprised that I married outside the race but they were disappointed. I
175
think also people when they handed the money it was telling. Some people because of
your family’s position they might give more money. But when they give $5, it is almost
like an insult; $5 or $10 it was almost like an insult. It was telling, even though it wasn’t
said and I don’t think it was said because of my uncle’s position and because of my mom
but I felt a level of resentment. But again, it was more the extended family. My
immediate family really, really embraced my husband. In fact on our little, not marriage
certificate but they write certain things that we have to abide by, we both sign it,
everyone signs and he promised to take care of me, they basically wrote, if she gives you
any problems you call us and we’ll take care of her. The running joke is that they would
rather have you as their son than me as their daughter. In fact, my cousins are so
embracing of him. They really were impressed because he went to the slaughterhouse and
he woke up at 3:00 o’clock in the morning; went to the slaughterhouse and watched as
they slaughter this cow for our wedding and was out there cutting the meat with them and
they were very surprised because even some of their Hmong son-in-laws or brother-inlaws refused to do that. They were surprised that this Mekas, this American was willing
to do that. I think he actually earned their respect by also embracing them and the culture
and understanding that there are some things that really needed to be done to honor the
culture and to honor my family. He did everything that they told him he had to do. He did
it very well and I think that is part of the reason why it has been really easy for us in my
immediate family. They all love him. I think they all love him more than they do me.
That is the God awful truth.
Payne: [laughs] Did any of your siblings finish college?
176
Mai Xi: So my brother who is older than me and my sister both graduated with their—my
sister has a BA, my brother has his masters and then of course me. Then my oldest
brother was the only who didn’t go through college. I think he started and just never
finished. I think it was harder for him. He started high school here and English was
challenging. He is a great mathematician and he just has an amazing math mind. I think
English has been a struggle and especially reading comprehension and writing. Writing
especially was a challenge. I think he did a semester and took off.
Payne: Where do you currently work at and what do you do?
Mai Xi: I am currently at Luther Burbank High School and I’m a vice principal.
Payne: Is there anything else that you would like to add?
Mai Xi: I don’t think so. I think I’ve said more so than you have asked me. I can’t think
of anything right now.
Payne: Okay, thank you Mai Xi.
Mai Xi: You’re very welcome. My pleasure.
END OF INTERVIEW
177
APPENDIX 7
Oral History Interview with Dr. Benjamin NhaBee Herr
178
179
180
Finding Guide for Oral History of Dr. Benjamin NhaBee Herr
By Payne Vang
Context Notes: The interview subject responds to the questions in both English and
Hmong throughout the entire interview. The interview was done in three sessions: first
interview last 58.44 minutes, second interview was 15.88 minutes, the third interview
was 13.04 minutes. Interruptions by paging and phone ringing occurred in the first two
sessions, and the second session ended abruptly due to interruption from staff.
First Interview Session:
[0 min – 15 Min]
Family background – born in Xieng Koung, Laos in 1964 – dialect – Parent
background-earning a living in Laos – memories of Laos – education in Laos –
life in Laos – being in jungle for 12 yrs – schools in Laos – View and Effect of
Secret War in Laos – Difficulties in United States – Why family left Laos –
family journey out of Laos (1978)
[15 min – 30 min]
Family journey out of Laos – Decision to come to Thailand – How felt about
leaving Laos- Brought on the journey to Thailand – Mekong River – some family
left behind – refugee camp – Nong Khai – Ban Vinai – 1980 come to United
States – went to Bangkok processing center – life in refugee camp – refugee
resettlement organizations in Thailand – resist to migrating to new country –
migrating to the United States – Decision to come to United States – Had family
in United States – recall of journey to United States – arrival in San Francisco,
CA – brought on trip to United States – first impressions of United States –
arrived in Oregon during winter
[30 min – 45 min]
Sponsor to United States – Christian Mission Alliance Church in Salem, Oregon
(1980), knowledge of English – Learning English – adjusting to life in U.S. –
economic condition on arrival – refugee organizations – World Vision – Welfare
– earning a living after arrival – Welfare – after high school looked for job –
arrived in Merced, CA (1982), problems finding jobs – minority – difficult
transition to life in U.S. – American citizenship – return to visit Laos/Thailand –
prefer to stay in United States – has distant cousins in Laos/Thailand – important
ways immigration changed him/family – education and economy is different –
181
start business from scratch – opportunity – American dream – [being paged : 44
minutes] – negative move from Laos to United States [45 min – 58.44 min]
Negative move from Laos to United States – positive move to living in United
States – [47 min: being paged] education – miss most about Laos/Thailand –
environment and way of living – names and birth years of siblings – education in
United States – started eighth grade in Oregon – communication difficulties with
teachers – outside sports – soccer – favorite games – football – closest friends –
school friends – parents monitor/set rules about who to play with – parents
aspirations as growing up – own aspirations/dreams – dream of being a doctor
[57-58 min – phone ringing as Dr. Herr was talking]
Second Interview Session
[0 min – 15:88 min]
Marital Status – wife name in Hmong and French – children names and birth
years – raising children – provide tutors – put children in sports, helping
community – preserve Hmong culture – schools children attend – higher
education for children – why settle in Sacramento region – local Hmong
community in Oregon upon arrival – Sacramento Hmong community – Hmong
business concentration in Sacramento – religious practice – role of the church –
church has big impact on his life – born in Christian family – family was
Christian in Laos – Hmong cultural aspects important to retain – Hmong
language, clothes, family and marital ways – Hmong holiday – Hmong New Year
– Hmong community events – Hmong cultural knowledge very important –
Participation in Hmong organizations – contribute most to Hmong new year
organization [14 minute: phone ringing] – highest education attained – higher
education experience [ends abruptly due to staff interruption]
Third Interview Session
[0 min-13:04 min]
Higher education experience – challenges going to college and graduate school –
intend to do with degree when graduate from college – bible college – change to
health care - why higher education – family feel about attending college –
furthering education – siblings attend college – current work – doctor at
chiropractic care center – has two office (one in south and one in north) – top
182
chiropractor in United States – start practicing in 2001 – need to find secret to
success for the Hmong community
183
APPENDIX 8
Oral History Interview with Vince Xiong
184
185
186
Interview Finding Guide for Oral History of Vince Xiong
By Payne Vang
Context Notes: The interview subject responds to both questions in English and Hmong.
[0-30 min]
Family Background – Discussion of formal names – Family business and
memories of assisting in family business – How Secret War affected family
members – Escaping Laos into Thailand as refugee – Life as refugee in Thailand
in a refugee camp – Immigration to United States – Initial experience in the
United States
[30 min-1 hr]
Settling into America – Life in Portland – Language Barriers – Sibling
experiences – School Experience – First experiences – Economic Conditions –
Work Experiences – Family Support – Life in Merced – Being bullied by
schoolmates – Harvesting Crops – Assimilation into the culture – Adapting to the
legal and health system – U.S. Citizenship – Discussion of why have not been
back to visit – Discussion of the use of the term immigration versus refugee
[1 hr-1hr 30 min]
Reflecting on experience of escaping into Laos and family loss – Reflecting on
experience as shaping history/culture – American Dream – Names of Siblings and
marriage information – Discussion of Sibling experiences and opportunities –
Discussion of personal education experience – Discussion of being eldest son and
house responsibilities – Pastimes during school years – Mentors and friends –
Parent relations and cultural expectations – Parental expectations – Discuss of
hope and dreams and community relations – Discussion of relationship between
males and female – Discussion of finding direction in life – Discussion of family
life
[1 hr 30 min-2 hr]
Dreams for children – Discussion of children's relationship with friends –
Discussion of raising children – Discussion of children's future – Discussion of
local Hmong community in Sacramento and priorities of education – Discussion
of Hmong values in the community – Discussion of Hmong tradition of funerals
and weddings; Discussion of relationship with children and value of education –
Hmong traditions – Discussion of what defines you as Hmong – Community
outreach and participation – Discussion of higher education – Discussion of
gender equality in Hmong community
[2 hr-2 hr 20 min]
Discussion of knowledge of the Hmong culture – Discussion of value of Hmong
community organizations and applying use of Higher Education to support the
187
community – Discussion of educational movement within the Hmong community
including support of charter school – Overview of charter school supporting cultures
including Hmong community – Discussion of doctorate degree and five year goal –
Discussion of personal values and values within personal clan – Concluding remarks
188
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