vs.
Creation versus Evolution
Jason Donev
Disclaimer:
This talk will show Scientific Creationism is incompatible with
observed facts, but does not address mainstream Christianity.
Definitions of Creationism
• Creationism is the belief that God created
the universe (a question science doesn’t
address).
• “Scientific Creationism” is a subset of
creationism where the Bible is taken to be
literally true. This talk will refer to scientific
creationism by simply the word
creationism.
Public Opinion
• 83% of Americans polled want Evolution
taught in public schools.
• 70% believe that evolution is compatible
with a belief in God
From: People for the American Way poll
(2000)
BUT:~1/3 of the surveyed people
believe that scientific creationism
should be taught
• 16% believe that schools should teach
scientific creationism only
• 13% believe both should be taught as
“scientific theories”
• 4% believe both should be taught, but
aren’t sure how.
The poll also asked about the
definition of evolution
• Correct definition of evolution chosen by
48% of the population:
– Humans and apes have a common ancestor
• Incorrect definition chosen by 32% of the
population:
– Humans evolved from apes
Americans with an incorrect definition of
Evolution (32% of public)
Eliminate evolution from textbooks
Keep evolution in textbooks
Not sure
33%
55%
12%
Americans who chose the correct definition of Evolution
(48% of public)
Eliminate evolution from textbooks
21%
Keep evolution in textbooks
70%
Not sure
9%
A less complete understanding of Evolution leads to
supporting its elimination from science classes.
History
• Most of medieval Christian church probably
didn’t believe the Bible was literally true, and
age of Earth was unknown.
• Bishop Ussher in 1650 calculated 4004BC
• Hutton / Lyell Uniformitarianism (early 1800’s):
– “The present is the key to the past.”
– Probably makes for a very old Earth
• Darwin wrote “Origin of the Species” (1859)
• 20th century Earth was determined to be 4.6
billion years old
Creationist history
• Modern Creation Science started with 7th day
Adventists, Ellen G. White claims to have seen
– The creation of the Earth in a week
– Noah’s flood shaped the surface of Earth
• George McCready Price (1870-1963) started to
get some following even in the 1910s, but not
popular until 1970s.
• 1963 Morris and Whitcomb started the Creation
Research Society (CRS) which required an
advanced degree in science to join.
Intelligent Design
• Started by Phillip E. Johnson a law
professor put out book Darwin on Trial.
• This movement is slightly different from
creationism, but is still attacks evolution.
• The Discovery Institute in Seattle
“supports research by scientists and other
scholars challenging various aspects of
neo-Darwinian theory”
Some creationist beliefs
• Science is only true if it agrees with the Bible.
• The Earth is between 6,000-10,000 years old
• C-14 dating is invalid; all radioisotope dating is
wrong
• Kinds are invariant (don’t evolve into other kinds)
• There was literally a flood that covered the planet
• Sedimentary rocks were all made during the flood
• 2nd law of thermodynamics prevents evolution
• Humans aren’t biologically animals
• Evolution leads to an immoral worldview
Looking into the past
• When we look at distant stars, we look into the
past. The further away the star, the further in the
past we look.
• If it takes more than 10,000 years for the light to
get here, the universe obviously appears more
than 10,000 years old.
• Light coming from stars millions of light years
away takes millions of years to get here.
• In order to explain this creationists have two
theories:
– The speed of light changed
– Light was created on its way here
The speed of light is
300,000,000m/s
• The speed of light in a vacuum has been
shown to tremendous precision to be
invariant locally.
• If it is different someplace else, there
would be total internal reflection
• If it varies with time, there would be a
change in eo and mo, this would change
spectra of stars; no such change is
observed.
Far away
• If God created the light on its way here, he
created a history for us to look at as well. If
God created an apparent age, why not just
call it age?
Radioactive isotopes
• they decay into other isotopes
• Half lives give how much time it takes for half of
a given sample to decay, or the time it takes for
1 atom to have a 50% chance of decaying.
• Isotopes have half lives range from nanosec billions of years.
• Age of a sample can be determined if:
– the amounts of isotopes are known
– no atoms enter or leave the system
– the rate of change is known.
Nuclide
Half-Life
Missing from nature
50V
6.0 x 1015
144Nd
2.4 x 1015
Nuclide
Half-Life
192Pt
1.0 x 1015
146Sm
7.0 x 107
115In
6.0 x 1014
205Pb
3.0 x 107
152Gd
1.1 x 1014
247Cm
1.6 x 107
123Te
1.2 x 1013
182Hf
9 x 106
190Pt
6.9 x 1011
107Pd
7 x 106
138La
1.12 x 1011
135Cs
3.0 x 106
147Sm
1.06 x 1011
97Tc
2.6 x 106
87Rb
4.88 x 1010
150Gd
2.1 x 106
187Re
4.3 x 1010
93Zr
1.5 x 106
176Lu
3.5 x 1010
98Tc
1.5 x 106
232Th
1.40 x 1010
154Dy
1.0 x 106
238U
4.47 x 109
40K
1.25 x 109
235U
7.04 x 108
If the half life is greater than ~108
years then it is found in nature,
less than 107 years it isn’t.
Creationists claim:
• Creationists claim that the radioactive
decay rate can’t be known.
– Candle analogy
• Creationists claim that the initial amount
can’t be known, and it can’t be proven if
additional elements came into a sample.
• They point to C14 dating as being fallible
therefore all radiometric dating must be
wrong.
Mainstream science claims:
• Radioactive decay rates can be calculated
from nuclear physics using fundamental
physical constants.
– They’ve been the same for millions of years.
• Looking at the decay of uranium into lead,
we know that rocks are at least 3.9 billion
years old.
• Over 200 different radioisotopes agree
that the Earth is more than 6000 years old.
Carbon 14 dating
• Useful for dating formerly living things.
• C14 is one of the few radioactive isotopes
that appears in living things with enough
abundance to measure the decay rate.
• There are some difficulties with C14 that
don’t happen with other radioisotopes, but
these difficulties are well understood.
How C14 dating works
•
•
•
•
•
•
There is a ratio of C12 to C14 in the atmosphere
Plant take in CO2, and gets C12 and C14
Animal eats plant and gets C12 and C14
Animal dies, and stops getting more C14
After 5730 yr ½ the C14 will decay but C12 won’t.
The ratio of C12 to remaining C14 shows how
long ago the animal stopped taking in C
Assumptions with C14 dating
• We must assume that we know the initial ratio of
C12 to C14. If that’s off, then the measurement is
off.
Scientists use their intelligence guided by their
experience to tell if data is good or not. This isn’t
scientific dishonesty. When the equipment
doesn’t work right, it’s recorded. This is different
from getting conflicting results!
Creationists ignore this
• Creationists often cite cases with incorrect C14 results.
• For example:
– A freshly killed seal dated by C14 showed it had died 1300
years ago. (Antarctic Journal, vol. 6, [September-October 1971])
• Which demonstrates a legitimate problem for C14 dating
called the reservoir effect:
– The seal’s C14 came from the Antarctic ocean which has a
different C12 to C14 ratio
– Much of the C14 decayed before it was eaten
• When reading the actual journal article, this is exactly
what the article is talking about.
C14 dating of dinosaur bones
• After 6-8 half lives a radiometric dating
technique becomes inaccurate because there’s
an insufficient amount of radioactive material
left. This puts an upper limit on C14 dating of
50,000 years.
• Dinosaurs are >65 million years old, therefore,
C14 dating results are meaningless.
• Some creationists actually complain that C14
hasn’t been used on dinosaur bones, or when it
is, it shows that the dinosaur bones are only a
few thousand years old.
Side note:
King Clone creosote bush
A creosote shoot can live ~100yrs, but it produces "clones" of itself
through a system whereby the inner stems die and new stems appear
on the periphery. This produces a circular pattern of geneticallyidentical plants, with the rings expanding outward about a meter
every 500 years. This "clone-family" can live a remarkably long time:
the "King Clone“ is estimated at 11,700 years old. If you consider the
cloned shoots as part of the original plant, that makes it the oldest
living thing on earth.
Geologic column
• Sedimentation
– The process of suspended solid particles
settling out in water.
– Yields different strata (the layers or beds
found in sedimentary rock.)
• Get correlating strata all over the world
• Fossils can be found that correspond to
specific strata
Creationists claim
• The entire geologic column was deposited
in 1 year by the flood.
• Species were sorted by where they lived,
less complex species lived at lower
elevations
• “Kinds” are invariant, and can not change.
Mainstream science claims:
• Sedimentation
– Old stuff is on the bottom, new on top
– Yields geologic column with an age associated with it.
• No evidence for a worldwide flood
• Different strata are deposited throughout time.
• Radioisotope dating date different strata.
– Can then date fossils by looking at the different strata.
– Age of strata from radioisotope data agree throughout
the world.
Faunal succession is a Fact
• Fossils found in age-equivalent geologic
strata look like each other, but commonly
differ from modern animals.
• Faunal succession: observation that over
time species change
• Evolution: a theory of what causes Faunal
succession
Horses through
the ages
Creationists claim
• They don’t believe the bones can be dated
• Modern horses vary, the variation seen in
the fossil record is just that variation.
Mainstream science claims
• Horse fossils are found in different layers.
– These horse skeletons are different with depth
– But the same within age-equivalent geologic strata.
• Skeletons of horses as they exist today haven’t
been found from rocks that existed 35 million
years ago, and horses which have been found
from 35 million years ago don’t exist today,
therefore evolution must have occurred.
• This has been observed for other species as
well, but horses have shown dozens of distinct
species with remarkably well documented
transitional forms between them.
2nd law of thermodynamics
• Without adding energy systems tend to
become disordered.
• The total disorder of the universe must
increase with time, although the disorder
in a given system may decrease.
Creationists claim
• Evolution can’t happen because it violates
the second law of thermodynamics.
• Even if the Earth is a closed system some
sort of ‘intelligent design’ is needed to
make the energy useful
2nd law of thermo
• We are not a closed system
– Sunlight shines allowing work to be done with its
energy
– So there can be a net increase in useful energy on
the Earth while still having a net increase in disorder
in the universe
• The work that sunlight does can be useful to
organisms, they can grow and change, and
evolve!
• Crystals can form with no more ‘intelligence’
than their atomic structure.
Creationists claim that
science is a religion
Science is a set of beliefs, however:
• Science is based on observation
• Science is falsifiable and predictive.
– A theory is proven wrong if it is not supported
by the evidence.
– When theories are proven incorrect, they can
be modified or new theories can come
forward.
Creation Science is not Science
• They begin by assuming that material in
Genesis is factual, and develop their
theories based on this assumption.
• They do not investigate their theories in
light of evidence, they construct the
evidence to fit their assumptions.
• Even when these theories have been
proven wrong they continue to believe
them.
Many religions claim
• God created the Earth, the universe, and
everything in it, including humans.
Mainstream science claims
• The Earth, the universe, and everything in
it, including humans exist and change over
time in an observable way.
Religions claim
• We should all try to be good people living
a moral life.
Mainstream science claims
Absolutely nothing.
Although many scientists agree we should
live a moral life, it’s not a scientific
statement.
Creationists Claim
• Teaching that humans are biological
animals leads to an immoral worldview.
• Crime rates have gone up since the
teaching of evolution started in schools
because people believe that they are
animals.
Mainstream Science claims:
• Humans are biologically animals
– Same chemical and physical structure as
other animals.
• Crime rates go up and down, causal
relationships are difficult to determine.
Incidence of Violent crimes per/1000
800
700
600
500
400
300
200
100
0
1960
1965
1970
1975
1980
1985
1990
1995
2000
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
The stock market has gone up since the 1950s as well!
Correlation does not imply a causal relationship!
The Scientific Creationist
movement is damaging
• The make specious and outlandish
religious claims that damage Christianity.
• They add fuel to the fire of disagreement
between the religious and scientific
community, adding to a conflict that should
be dying and discrediting both institutions.
Claims I addressed
• The speed of light is constant
• Radioactive dating, including C14, is a valid and accurate
way to date samples
• Faunal succession, species do change over time,
evolution is a viable “theory”
• Geologic column really does show that the older stuff is
on the bottom, and can be used to date fossils
• 2nd law of thermodynamics doesn’t contradict evolution
• The “Creationist Science” movement is hazardous to
both religion and science and should be combatted by
open and honest discussion and education.
In conclusion
• Creationist arguments and theories don’t
fit the facts
• Science answers questions within its
purview quite successfully.
• Scientific creationism should not be taught
Thanks and citations
•National Center for Science Education,
specifically Glenn Branch and Nick Matze
•The Talk Origins archive, if they don’t address it,
creationists probably haven’t claimed it:
http://www.talkorigins.org/
•The Age of the Earth, Dalrymple
•Paleontological Society Papers October 1999 V 5
•Crime statistics:
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm