SIDE TWO
D:
So when you got to the church where your stepmother was you heard about the
other church that was burned
B:
They were burning it.
D:
Where your father was.
B:
Where my father was, 3,000 people. It was an all marble building like a cathedral.
They couldn't get in it so what they did, they opened the roof and they poured the
gasoline over them and 3,000 people they burned them alive. My uncles, my
aunts, from my family my father, they were tour brothers and two sisters, only I
was left and my sister and the brother but the brother died in the orphanage. He
gut sick and he died in the orphanage. But this time the war, the French they
depending to the French, French left Marash. I was going to go but they wouldn't
let me go and the war was over, I guess, I don't, everybody's coming they looking
fur, I have nobody, nobody not from my mother's side, not from my father's side,
nobody. We were left on the street on then they picked us up and they took us to
the orphanage. We stayed there in Marash no clothing, no food, no nothing, no
shoes, nothing. So after that we stayed one year in Marash orphanage and the
Turks didn't want any more Armenians in Marash. The orphanage or whoever is
left take ---- 10,000 people at that war for 23 days. And then they took us to
Beirut ---- and over there again
D:
How did you get there? What was your transportation?
B:
Transportation? The American people, we were in American orphanage, they had
big trucks and they took us by truck, by trucks, 'dig, big trucks.
D:
I guess military trucks.
B:
Military trucks. (?When we got there was may 10,000 orphans over there) they
came from all over. There is no food, no sleeping place nothing, terrible, terrible.
By this time I said Oh my God. Still I don’t have anybody. I don't hear from
nobody. For 32 years 1 didn't go out once or my sister we (?didn't see outside).
D:
In Beirut, in the orphanage.
B:
In Marash and in Beirut, yes, nobody. So one day, they call my name. Siranoosh
Kazarian there's a letter for you from America. I said my God this Is a miracle. So
I went I got the letter, by this time I learned a little bit reading and writing in the
orphanage and I read the letter. One of my uncles in the Marash war, he came to
(?Adana) there was snow on everything, people freezing in the snow but they got
there safe one of them and he came to America and then tie said let me look, let
me see the orphanages and he start writing to the orphanages.
D:
To all the orphanages looking for you.
B:
looking fore anybody that was left.
D:
Survived
B:
Survived.
D:
Now when you heard from him, you were in Marash or in Beirut?
B:
No, Beirut.
D:
Oh, you are in Beirut when you heard from him
B:
In Marash I didn't hear anything. 3o when I heard the war was you know,
different now, and he said in the letter that my uncle, one of my uncle, his brother
was in Marash from when this thing happened, half of the people mostly they
traveled with the French then, the French were going out of Marash. They went
with them. My uncles ---- but one uncle stayed in ---- and he saw ---- too. and he
---- said Uncle (?Mardiros) is in Greece and he says I'm going to send money and
make money and he’s going to bring you and your sister to Greece. So we went to
Greece, my uncle called us.
D:
How long did you stay in Beirut?
B:
Beirut? about ---- year and a half or 2¼ Altogether 1 think 1 stay three and a half
years. One year in Marash and two and half years in Beirut. I forgot to tell you the
main thing that, every time I used to go to that. Oh, I told you about the river.
D:
Yes, yes.
B:
It was so hard for me.
D:
The hundred steps.
B:
The hundred steps and my hair was so curly, nobody combed it all the ----
D:
Lice
B:
It got so sore, nobody to look after it. (?I saw) so much heart ache. But I used to
do everything, cook, bring the wood, make that thing, whatever you call it, it told
you before, the hay and the all this things I did by myself. All this things. I don't
know how I did it. And I forget to tell you this part, after I went to the church, tile
Catholic church. I told them that there is 40 people in that house. And at the next
house they were all massacred and it is going to come to them. So they sent
people and they bring all those people, they saved all these people because of me.
40 people at that age. I had no fear. And I was still insisting that I want to go to
the church to ask ---- and tell them what was going on. There were 27 ---- over
there too, they couldn't do anything they got (?burned with them ) And now when
I came to, there's other things on the way, you know. We came with a freight boat
D:
From Beirut to Greece?
B:
From Beirut to Greece.
D:
Where in Greece were you?
B:
In Pyre. When I came and they put us in an orphanage again and we lead to wait
for my uncle, months and months and months until he show up. So one day he
came, what a heart ache for a young person to go all this through all this things.
D:
Such a young age.
B:
Yes. And my uncle came one day and (?Here I said, laughed) God is with us, it is
a miracle what's happening, this is , you know, after going through all those
things. He took us and we came here. They had a little tent, all the people that
gave from ---- Again they put them In a field like they did and everybody had a
little tent. There was six of us in that tent. Two of their children me and my sister
----. So we stayed there for a while and that Sunday, I should go through?
D:
Sure. Whatever you remember
B:
Yes, my marriage and all that?
D:
We want to know everything. Whatever you can remember. (laughter) Unless you
are tired.
B:
No. I'm not tired. But I forget lot of things what I went through.
D:
We can come back to that. You can say it as you remember it. It doesn't matter.
You can come back to It. Sure.
B:
So when I came to Greece, to my uncle, they said, everybody Said ---- (?brought
his) niece and they were lot of men there wasn't girl. They said well lie's going to
give her to this boy, and to that boy. In meantime I went to church because I was,
I went to the Presbyterian church because I'm ---- there was no ---- ;church. They
gave us Presbyterian ---- at the orphanage, American people. And I went to
Presbyterian church. In the meantime, my husband in this country, he was in this
country. lie came in 1911 I think. He and his people, he was here with is people
(?that were massacred) his mother, three of his brothers and his sister. And he
wrote to his aunt, his mother's sister and he said that, I like to come and see your
people, and if there's a girl that you think, you know, I can marry, I like to get
married too. And then I was singing in the church, this woman she noticed that
there is different voice. I have a good voice so I used to sing in the orphanage.
And we all used to come together and sing sad songs and cry day and night. This
was our (laughs) (?goal) there was nothing else to do. There was nothing else to
do. So next day she came with few people and she said that I have a nephew in
America and he wants to get engaged and he wants to get married. ---- your niece
to my uncle. I have to do what they tell me. I don't know, by that time I was about
sixteen, fifteen, sixteen. So, they said to me what do you say, what do you say. I
said I don't know. And my uncle said, Well, if she said to you I don't know, that
means that you know she's saying yes. So they took picture of me. In the
meantime, in Marash from my family, we have family pictures we have, I had
nothing left, they burned the house to the ground. We have nothing left. I have no
my pictures, not my brother or my father or my mother, nothing. So then we were
engaged.
D:
He came? You husband came to Greece?
B:
Yes.
D:
That's how you met.
B:
No, we got engaged with the picture.
D:
With the picture first.
B:
With the picture first. And we gut engaged. They made engagement without the
boy. His aunt she put the picture and she gave me the ring (laughs), the ----. Then
year later he came and we got married.
D:
So then you got married in Greece.
B:
In Greece
D:
What year was that?
B:
1925. In 1925. So I came to this country and it was big family my husband's side.
They were nine people.
D:
So you came to America, what year?
B:
1925.
D:
Oh, same year.
B:
Three months later we came. We got married and we came back. And the first
year I had Jimmy my son. I was only eighteen and I had him and there was a big
family, my father-in law and all them. I used to working, hard working. I used to
cook for them, I used to wash for them, I used to do everything. life was a ----
D:
You lived with your in-laws.
B:
Yes. I lived with my father-in-law.
D:
Where did you settle when you first came.
B:
In Paterson.
D:
Oh, you did settle in Paterson.
B:
Because my husband was here and before and when he heard that his family were
all right, he brought seven people to this country. His father, five of his brothers,
and two brothers' wives. And he built a home. He thought it's going to be like the
old country and he's going to get married and we all going to live together happily
every after. But it didn't work. I tried my best because I wasp used to being in a
family. But we were all from different towns, you know, and it's impossible,
didn't work. But my father-in-law stayed with me until he died. He stayed with
me until he died.
D:
Where are your husband's family from.
B:
Marash.
D:
Oh, they're also from Marash.
B:
But we didn't know that and they didn't know it also. Because one thing, they
were Presbyterian and secondly they were poor and we were very rich. And we
didn't go to the same church. Over there it's, how can I say, if you go to the same
church, or same ----, this is what you do
D:
It's a different class.
B:
Yes.
D:
There was class difference, sure.
B:
Yes. This is the way it happened. Then I had ---- after eight years. I didn't want to
have any children because I said, I didn't want to get married anyway in the first
place. What I went through, I said this is going to happen again. It's not worth
living in this world the way what I went through, the things I went through. But
then after eight years, I said God I prayed you know, God if you give me a
daughter, I'll be very happy because I lost my mother very you know and I used to
love her. And then I had ---- and that was happy time for me.
D:
You wanted a lovely daughter.
B:
Yes.
D:
So you've been living in Paterson since you came to America.
B:
Yes, since I came to America.
D:
And when did you became a citizen?
B:
Well I become a citizen and that's another story. I left behind because when I got
married my sister was living with my uncle and I we were living together. And we
were supportable. She was much younger than me, six years, eight, seven years
younger. So I don't want to leave her over there and I wrote to my husband and I
said if my fiancé, if you bring my sister, I will come or else not. He said well, it
doesn't going to last six months we going to bring her here. It took twenty-three
years by the time---- I had to find somebody again, pay money and he had to go
and get married with her. And they didn't even live in the same town over here.
They live in Massachusetts. But she doesn't remember anything because she was
very young. She went through a lot too but, where was I
D:
So your sister lives in Massachusetts.
B:
Yes. She lives in Massachusetts.
D:
Yes. You were going to tell me about how you became a citizen.
B:
Oh, because I was going to bring her here. I couldn't wait to become a citizen and
I became a citizen and then depression came there was no work, my husband out
of work and we had no money and I used to bring work home (?Lillian) was four
months old and I used to do work at home and take it back. All my life I worked.
All my life. So I said to myself, nothing was good enough for my children,
because I suffered a lot and I said whatever I can, they have to be somebody in
this world. So (?Lillian) became a teacher and Jimmy became a journalist (?They
both went to) college but we had real hard times but thanks God we were all right
----- its hard.
D:
So do you remember what year you became a citizen?
B:
I came 1925, you had to wait five years then.
D:
So probably five, six years after.
B:
Because he was citizen, it was five years after I became -----
D:
Do you remember anything else that you may have skipped by earlier that you
want to get back to?
B:
Well, so many things, you know if you want to tell, so many things to tell but, I
don't know, how can I say, it was very hard for me those years that my mother
died and it was very hard for me to hear my people burning alive in the church
and hearing them, you know. Used to hear their moans and every house in Marash
was burned. There was a Armenian house, there was seven churches. There was --- and three Presbyterian and two Catholic. They didn't burn those but all the ----churches were burned to the ground. But none other of the churches, the people
got burned, like they burned in ---- 3,000 people. It was the hardest thing.
D:
Well, what is your message now for the youth here in America? What do you
think is going to be with us Armenians, the coming generations.
B:
My thing is this that I said this before and I say it again, we believe too much, we
too naive. We don't plan ahead. We're too trustful
D:
Of others.
B:
Of others.
D:
That's why this happened.
B:
That's why this happened. This is my idea and I think I'm right because what I
saw it wasn't necessary for us to do those things that we did in Marash because we
,just make them, why couldn't we waited couple years? They took us back, they
gave us our homes, they gave us our business, why we have think that our
Christian nations are going to come and free us from the Turks, take Marash and
give it to us. Why
D:
We took too much for granted.
B:
---- This is what I say. What we have to do now, my idea new generation, we have
to plan ahead not just jump into the thing. If we going to do something, not to do,
because being ahead or doing something for your nation, no but you have to think
what's the best that we could do to win our fight. I mean it's too late anyway now.
And my idea today if they give ----- or if they gave us Armenia I won't go there
and live, I won't go there and live. I don't want to see it. My son went to Europe
before he got married, he said he wants to go to Marash, I said if you go to
Marash, I don't talk to you. Don't mention Marash to me because what I went
through, what I saw in Marash, that 23 day war, that was horrible, hungry 21
days, you don't have nothing to eat. We don't have place to sleep. You have to sit
all day long like and you go to people's garbage too see what to find something to
eat and there isn't even garbage to eat and people are dying left and right and
everyday they come allah, allah, allah and they put, they throw the gasoline over
it and people you know ----- because they had water all around. The message is,
'tike I said, I'm proud that we are what we are today because, like I said, in my
family, Pazapian family, I was the only one and my sister was left from four
brothers and two sisters, The Turk wanted to wipe off but he thanks God today
D:
You survived.
B:
We survived and we gave the world children
D:
And they're carrying on.
B:
They're carrying on. This is big, big, big, we win We win our battle.
D:
That's right.
B:
But in the meantime we don't have to make the same mistakes over and over
again.
D:
Well do you think the youth who was born in America of Armenian parents, do
you think they will carry on or do you think eventually they will forget?
B:
Well I think they'll carry on. I think they'll carry on because you know why when
I came to this country first time and I didn't know yes or no and I had my baby
first year I said my God what's going to happen to us, we going to be lost. Who
are we? But thanks God today I see that our children are doing great things. And I
am sure that they going to pass it to their children. Maybe the language will go
maybe
D:
But the spirit will be there.
B:
But the spirit will be there. But they going to say that we are from the Armenians
---- and they going to know about Armenians history and they going (?love) that
church. And another thing I don't believe in organizations. What say this, I was
someplace in Mexico, my husband has his cousin over there, and we were to visit
and I don't know what you believe, I mean what you belong, I don't know but I
don't belong to anything.
D:
Same here.
B:
And he said to me, we were sitting and talking, and he said because I was
Tashnag, the Armenian nation is alive today. And this burned me up, I said you
want, to know something I said. It wasn't the Tashnag, it wasn't the Ramgavar, it
wasn't the Hunchak, it was the faith that our parents put in us.
D:
That's right.
B:
They used to take us to church, they used to teach us how to pray every night and
this is what they saw but we saw on them. It made us go on, on and on because
they were martyrs and because they didn't like we were at the deportation and
they asked us if you become a Turk we give you everything, but we stayed hungry
and we didn't become a Turk.
D:
You kept your faith.
B:
They said even if you change your name from the Armenian name to the Turkish
name even we look different we didn't. No. That's faith, that's faith. The faith kept
us and if we are really believe that Armenian nation is whatever he is today or she
is today, that's his faith. If he stays strong in his faith, he'll carry on.
D:
Right. I agree with you.
B:
He'll carry on. That's the only, only What we have to do then is pass on this faith
to our children which is not easy.
B:
No. It's not easy, not easy. But I'm sure when they're young they don't realize. I
know with my experience like my children I used to take them to church, I used to
them (:about It). They didn't make sense to them until they glow up and they
became somebody and they knew what was all about. And I think all the second,
third generation maybe they wondered for a while, they would stay away but I'm
sure, I'm sure the Armenian will survive in this country.
D:
I hope so.
B:
What I went through, what I saw, this is where I believe. I don't say the
Armenians are going to be Armenian ---- nation maybe the church is going to
change a little bit, maybe you know, but the still I think, we have a big faith in
God and we believe.
D:
We've come a long way, long, long way, thanks to you people. People like you.
B:
Thank you honey.
D:
Who have carried on. Because of you we are here today.
B:
You work so hard that we thanks to you people to. If it wasn’t for you people
who's going to hear our story.
D:
You have given us the inspiration. You are to be commended Because it is
because of you that we are inspired. You've been through it all acid we are only
listening.
B:
I think of myself and I say ----, especially when you're children are small you're
busy. And then after they get married, you know, you think, you go back and you
say how I did those things.
D:
That's right. You have more time to yourself and you think back.
B:
And you say how I did those things. How God gave me strength. He did. That I
had to do those things.
D:
You handled each situation when it came.
B:
Yes. When it came. This is just having faith in God I guess. When we went to the
orphanage I didn't have anything else to do but pray to God, God help us, God
help us, God help us, God show me the way, what to do, I am lost, I have no
body, what is going to be my future?
D:
Well, thank you very much.
B:
You're welcome.
D:
This interview was done on May 1, 1980 by Arax Dinkjian.
End