CONSTITUTION OF KENYA REVIEW COMMISSION
(CKRC)
VERBATIM REPORT OF
PROVINCIAL ADMINISTRATORS WORKSHOP, HELD
AT SIRIKWA HOTEL, ELDORET.
ON
22ND - 24TH NOVEMBER, 2001
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PROVINCIAL ADMINISTRATORS WORKSHOP HELD AT SIRIKWA HOTEL ON
22ND - 24TH NOVEMBER 2001
Present:
Com. Abida Ali
Com. Alice Yano
Com. Isaac Lenaola
-
Chairperson
Com. Abida Ali: I wish to call the meeting to order and our normal procedure is that we start
with a word of prayer because we believe that apart from our hard work in this process we really
need the assistance from God so probably we can have, Bol lead us in prayers.
Prayer: In the name of the Father, Our Father we thank you for this country of Kenya We
thank you for the Government for the people of Kenya we thank for the commission that is doing
the Constitution. We thank you for all the people who are here today so that we may discuss the
issues pertaining the Constitution. We pray that you guide us through this discussion today so
that at the end of the day we come out with sufficient information to (inaudible)
Com Wanjiku Kabira: May be what we should do is to introduce ourselves and I wish to
recognize the presences of Mheshimiwa, Mheshimwa karibu but of course you will be
introducing yourself and telling us more. May be we can start from Mr. Bol. Give us your
names and what you do so that we can know each other.
Mr. Bol: Thank you (inaudible)
Ronald Katina: My name is Ronald Katina. The co-ordinator West Pokot.
Emmanuel Fatil: My name is Emmanuel Fatil Co-ordinator Tranzoia (inaudible)
Com Alice Yano: Alice Yano Commissioner representative Riftvalley.
Abida Ali: Vice Chairperson Commission
Lenaola Isaac: Commissioner
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Com. Abida Ali: Thank you. Bwana DC I think we will be honoured if you could do the
official opening for us since we are your guests you here today.
District Commissioner: Commissioners present here today, my colleagues participants, ladies
and gentlemen, I think first all the commissioners I want to welcome you to Uasin Gishu and
perhaps that we are privileged to host this very important session. We are privileged because
you could have suggested to go to Kitale but when you choose Eldoret as a venue, we really feel
privileged as a district in North Rift. I would say that Madam Chairman, I think I want to make a
few comments and declare this seminar officially open.
First of all the fact that the commission the commission has thought of talking to the
administration and how best we can build the consensus and collaboration in this very vital
process in our country is in itself a clear manifestation that from the commission want to work
with everybody in the field and I would like to assure you that we in the administration feel
honoured that you found it necessary to talk to us and discuss with us the way forward in this
very important process over the review process. I would like to tell you in all sense that we
officers in Government are fully supportive of this process.
We are part of the Kenyan
citizenship and we feel that the process of the Constitution Review need to be looked into as part
of the country and we
are fully supportive of what the commission is doing as part of
Government.
I also want to reveal to you that I think that suspicion that has been existing until some people
and administration of this country ought to be a thing of the past. One is because we are part of
this country as officers Government right from sublocation to the Office of the President. We
are part of the process and anything happening in this country we feel as Kenyans we should be
part of it. Our support for this particular process I think is not negotiable. We in Government are
obliged to support and give the commission an environment which can allow the people of this
country to express their views on what they want the Constitution to be in future. I think we
being together today will tell the world that we are together and there is no team which is
working against the other one. I want to thank you very sincerely and the commission to
continue consulting all the Kenyans including civil servants.
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I think in the past people believed that may be our department was not for the change we are
seeing in this country. I think that attitude must stop because all of us particularly myself and
others who are progressively minded want to see the country change. Being the part of this
country, we want to see the country and me being part of this country, we want to see a country
that is stable in future. The stability of a country is the Constitution. The Constitution is part of
life for Kenyans and everything that deserves life, I think it is not right and we in administration
therefore, would like to recognise your role as a commission. The PC Riftvalley would like to
be here but as you know he is a bit far and so on his behalf, I want to welcome you
commissioners and please feel free, we are together and your co-ordinators should be able to be
very free with us. We will give him all the support they need because to be facilitated so that
they can be able to work well and achieve a better goal the commission is trying to achieve.
I
would also like to thank the only MP who has come for joining us, we will work together will
work together with our politicians to get the best Constitution in this country.
I think because the day is quite young and perhaps I am not in a position to talk about the
Constitution Review if I stop there I will not be able to contradict myself.
(laughter) I want to
play safe. So I think with those few remarks I will be making myself very belief. I would like to
declare this seminar officially opened. Thank you. (clapping)
Com.Abida Ali: Thank you Bwana DC. I should also mention that the commissioners present
here today, our district co-ordinators and our staff who are here are very priviledged to come to
this town. As you are priviledged to have as here we are equally priviledged to be your guests
and we are most happy to learn that the administration realises that they have a role to play in the
review process. On our part as the commissioners, when we heard our provincial tours between
the month of July and August it was quite clear to us at that point that we need to work very
closely with provincial administration and that for the success of the review process, the
relationship between us and the administration has to be strengthened and we made a pledge that
we will come back so that we can be able to have dialogue with you to see how best we can use
your structures. I am also happy to learn that you are one of progressive DCs (laughter) and I am
sure the ones who are here are equally progressive. What came very clear during our past
provincial tours is that the ordinary mwananchi has no problem at the level of the DCs. We are
hoping that as we continue with our discussions today that you will see how best we can trickle
down that understanding up to the level of the chief and the subchief because we really need
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them and our emphasis is that this review is a process that wants to involve all Kenyans and we
need to all collaborate to be able to have a success at the end of the day because the failure of
the review process will be a failure on every Kenyan. We are very grateful we really hope that
by the end of the day, we will have achieved the objective of this workshop. Thank you very
much.
I think we then go to our next item which is the Constitution Review process its organs and
functions. We know that all of us have read a lot about the review process for many years now
but we have an act that governs the process and the view of the commission is that for us to be
able to work effectively, it would be of great help for all of us to understand the provisions of the
Act. This is the Constitution of Kenya Review Act, Chapter 3A of the laws of Kenya. I want to
believe that we all have copies of the same. So we will be discussing with you not in details but
we will highlight sections of that Act so that we can understand at the end of the day what the
review process entails and so that when we call upon you for assistance then we all have a
common understanding.
To begin with, we feel that probably it is of interest for us to go back to the history of the review
process and to look at what the objective of the process is before we get to the organs of the
review process and then get down to discuss the functions of the commission. I will start by
highliting the historical background of the review process and my colleague Alice Yano will take
you through the different organs of the review process. They are several of them and we would
like to understand them so that we know at what point the provincial administration can make an
intervention and then my colleague Isaac Lenaola will give us the functions of the review
process. The are not detailed but we want to highlight so that it then form a basis of the
discussion after this session.
The review process like you are all aware started off through the same Act that you have but in a
different version in 1997 when the state through the office of the Attorney General enacted a bill
known as the Constitution of Kenya Review Act 1997. The one you have right now has been
revised severally and it reads revision edition 2001.
What happened is that when the
Government through the Attorney General enacted the Constitution of Kenya Review Act 1997,
there was a lot of human cry from the opposition, the religious community and Non Government
Organisations mainly referred to as civil society. At that point the state felt that it would be to
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the interest of this country to involve other people in improving provisions of that Act because
the complaint by that section of group of people was that they were not consulted. It seems in
Kenya now we have this culture where different people want to be involved when having
enactment of bills. Another good example would be probably like bills like affirmative action,
equality bill and so forth and so on. Where a section of the community says we want to have an
input to enact that is going to affect our lives.
After that cry from the civil society the
Government then decided to invite those who are interested in having an input in an act that was
supposed to be revised. In 1998 the Attorney General advertised inviting group of people all
individuals interested in getting involved in the process. We then had a meeting at Bomas of
Kenya where over a hundred civil society groups were involved. From Bomas of Kenya, the
attorney general then took out the issues that were brought forth by those groups and we had
there after meetings at Safari Park. There are known as famous Safari Park meetings. I believe
the were three of them where the different stake holders had a dialogue with the Government and
after that a committee was set to revise the 1997 Act and we then had the 1998 Amendment Act
that set down the way in which commissioners were to be appointed and various amendments
that were felt cardinal in involvement of the ordinary mwananchi were put in place but then a
problem arose because the political parties had be given thirteen slots out of twenty five but they
were unable to agree on the number of commissioners that were going to be appointed by each
political party. The stalement took quite a while. The politicians were unable to resolve the
stalement at that point, we had a division. A number of stakeholders went and formed an
initiative that was
known as Ufungamano and then KANU and NDP and a number of
stakeholders decided to resolve the matter through Parliament and that point Parliament formed a
select committee that was to try and resolve the stalement. The select committee then decided
that they were going to look at ways and means of resolving the stalement and they were also
going to interview people so that they could feel in the fifteen slots. On the other hand, the
people who went to Ufungamano decided to have parallel process and with that I think they
commissioned twenty commissioners who then decided to seek views from mwananchi and
proceed to recommend a Constitution that they deemed necessary.
After the select committee invited and shortlisted commissioners, they were sworn in. They
were fifiteen commissioners. Professor Pal Yash Ghai was appointed the Chairman. At that
point he felt that he could not take his oath of office for the sake of the country as he put it.
Together with the fifteen commissioners they decided to engage the Government to see whether
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the two review processes could merge because the feeling at that point of a lot of Kenyans was
that we cannot have for the sake unity and peace in this country we could not have two parallel
processes and for about six months that was just before Christmas mid of June this year, the two
processes were engaged
in discussions and dialogue to see whether we could alive at a
consensus and merge the two commissions. What I would say without going into details is that
the happy ending is that the two commissions merged for the sake of the country through a lot of
sacrifices from different quarters and we now have a twenty nine member commission. Two of
them are ex-official. That is the Secretary Mr Patrick Lumumba and the Honourable Attorney
General. So that is really the short history that I wish to share with you but if there are any
clarifications we can clarify them and may for the sake of information is to inform you that the
two processes have merged and truly bonded so that when you hear in the newspapers that we
have divisions within he commission that is a thing of the past. As commissioners we have
decided to put our country at the fore front. We have also realised that we cannot have our
partisans interests brought into the commission and our oath of office requires that each
commissioner is non partisan. May be for those who know, Lenaola and myself were in the
Ufungamano initiative, Alice Yano was in the Parliamentary initiative and you can see we are
here and unless we tell you, you wouldn’t know that prior to June this year, we were talking
different languages although I believe we meant the same thing at the end of the day.
Having said that, I think I would also wish that we go through the objects of the review processes
so that we can understand them and I wish to refer you to section three of what you have of the
Review Commission Act 2001. In fact this Act that you are looking at was amended through an
initiative of the two parallel commissions as they were then where the two commissions
representatives sat, deliberated and improved on the 1997 Act and we believe that although it is
very lengthy our Chairman who has been involved in reviewing and writing Constitutions
elsewhere in the world tells us that he has never seen a comprehensive Act like this one so we
believe that it is really a master piece that should be able to guide this country through the review
process to give us what will be able to last another hundred years.
I will quickly read through so that we are all together. This is found on page five of this
document. It is a photocopy of the Constitution of Kenya Review Act. I believe we all have
copies of that if we don’t may be we can then try to supply. I believe we all have them. One of
the objectives really of this process:
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1.
To ensure that we are able to guarantee peace and national unity and integrity of the
republic of Kenya.
We are supposed to appreciate that we all come from diverse
backgrounds. We all come from different religious backgrounds. We all come from
different ethnic backgrounds. We all come from different political backgrounds but we
need to ensure that we guarantee peace and unity for the well being of the people of this
country.
2.
The commission is also to propose a system of government that is free and democratic
that also enshrines governance and constitutionalism and ensures that rule of law is
adhered to by all of us. In this country we normally talk about rule of law when we are
referring to the Government and we forget that as citizens we also have obligations as we
enjoy rights.
As a commission we need to ensure that both the citizens
and the
Government observes the rule of law, human rights and gender equity.
3.
The other issue that needs to be looked at is demarcation of division of responsibility
among the different organs of the states. We know that currently we have executives and
the legislature. The commission in its work will also see whether there is a need to
establish other organs other than the three organs that we have and make clear guidelines
and demarcations so that you don’t have the executives interfering with the work of
judiciary and vice versa or judiciary interfering with the work of the legislature. That
happens quite often. Recently you have seen courts of law trying to overturn decision of
parliament. The question is do they have that mandate, or should we allow it, or should
we have proper guidelines so that we do not have a problem like that.
4.
The other issue is the promotion of people’s participation in governance so that the
ordinary mwananchi is given a way of participating in how he or she is governed so that
we do not have
our MPs Muheshimiwa go to Parliament and pass laws without
consulting us as wananchi. So we are just trying to find a way that if a law is passed the
rest of us as wananchi feels that we participated in it. I had also mentioned the issue of
ethnicity and regional diversity that as we appreciate that we have different backgrounds
we work together and appreciate the different communal rights including the rights of
communities to engage and participate in their activities without trending on the rights of
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others. So that as you enjoy what you believe to be customarily right you also make sure
that you don’t trend on the rights of your members.
5.
The other issue is the provision of basic needs for all Kenyans through establishment of
an equitable framework of economic growth and equitable access to the natural resources
of this country. It is quite obvious that parts of this country are lagging behind. Some
have more access to the National Cake. Some do not have. Probably these are the
shortcomings that we carried down from the colonialism and needed to grow to appoint
where we want to look back and see how we can distribute these resources so that every
Kenyan is able to have a decent life.
6.
Also promotion and facilitation of regional and international co-operation. We already
see what is happening to our region, the East African Parliaments, East African Courts
and so on and so forth. Strengthening national integration and unity, creating conditions
conducive to a free exchange of ideas so that we do not have to fight when we are
exchanging different ideas but accommodate each other and see whether we can alive at a
consensus and also ensuring full participation of people in the management of public
affairs.
7.
Last and not least, to be able to resolve national issues on the basis of consensus. We do
not have to fight we can dialogue and agree to disagree and at the end of the day see
whether we can be able to achieve what is best by giving in here and there. So basically
those are the objects of the Review Commission or the Review process.
The other thing that I probably wish to highlight to all of us is section seventeen of the Act.
Although my colleague Lenaola I think will be talking in details but this is an issue that we all
need to look at so that when we come to you for assistance in your relevant districts, you should
realise what the guiding principles are. May be I would also like to refer you to section five of
the Act that also give you what are the guiding principles of the various organs that Mrs Yano
will be talking to us about. There are several, there actually four principles that will be guiding
us in this process.
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1.
We emphasise as a commission that we truly a people driven commission and we intend
to write a Constitution or the draft bill according to the wishes of the Kenyan people.
Our mandates requires that we should seek views from and every Kenyan who is willing
to give his views or her views to the commission. So the first thing us as a commission is
that we must be accountable to the people of Kenya.
2. We also have to ensure that the Review process accommodates the diversity of the people of
Kenya.
3. We have to look into the social economic status of the different people while collecting our
views.
4. We have to take into account the different races in this country, ethnicity, gender. For
instance if we go to a Constituency and we want to take views on a Saturday we have to
make sure that we take care for people who go to church on Saturday. We have to take
cognisance of the fact that in certain areas of this country we cannot views on Saturday. If
we go to the Coast, we have to take cognisance that after a certain time will not be able to
take views from people of the Muslim faith. For places where people worship on Sundays,
we have to take cognisance of that. We also need to take cognisance of people’s customs.
There are places you go and women cannot come out where men are so that we shall an
atmosphere that is conducive to them so that they can also be able to give their views. So
those things that as a commission we need to take into consideration. We need to take into
account people with disability, we need to take into account people who have been
marginalised so that when we go to an area like Rift valley, we need to see who is a
marginalised community in this and make sure that they get an opportunity without being
overshadowed by the majority or the larger communities within Riftvalley so that we are able
to have views from everybody. We need to create an atmosphere where people with
disabilities are able to come and give us views.
5. The other thing is that, we need to create an atmosphere where people are free and able to
give us our views without any fear at all. This of course now takes us back with working
with administration so that we have security, so that we have an atmosphere where if one has
a view that probably is not very popular, they are given that opportunity to express that view.
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Also the commission has to conduct its work in an open manner. Indeed we intend to have
our constituency for us that Alice will be talking about. Open so that any one interested is
able to attend and listen and only have the hearings in camera or privately upon a special
request for good reason that will be judged by the commission.
6. The other thing is that we also are supposed to be guided by the universal principles of
human rights gender equity and democracy. Not to say that we are going to borrow heavily
on the west but Kenya is a signatory to a lot of international conventions. So we will look at
what suits this country and make sure that we respect those items that have been mentioned
there and at the end of the day we have to ensure that the outcome of the review process
faithfully reflects the wishes of the people of Kenya. So with that I wish to end and say that
we hope that you will help us to achieve the objects of the review process and you will also
help us to stick strictly speaking to the principles that are supposed to guide this process.
With that I think I will hand you over to over to Alice so that she can introduce and tell us
about the different organs of the review process. Thank you.
 Com Alice Yano: Thank you very much Abida Ali. We are going to look into the organs
for the institutions for the review process. What we believe mostly and especially the
outsiders outside the commission is the only organ for the review process is the commission.
That is wrong. We have several organs. We have six of them. We have:
 The commission as the most important organ
 Constituency Constitution forum
 National Constitution of Conference
 Referendum
 National Assembly
 Documentation centres
Why are we introducing this at this particular time? It is because we believe in all these organs.
The provincial administration is going to play a very great role. In the commission as Abida Ali
had already explained to you we have twenty nine commissioners. It is a believe that the
commission is based at Nairobi. Yes that is a secretariat but this an independent commission and
should go round the whole country collecting views from the public. We are mandated as the
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commission to go round the constituencies and that is why I think we will be in Riftvalley we
will be trying to come up with constituencies committees for purposes of collecting views and
also for purposes for encouraging public debate on the commission.
All these organs are provided for into the Act so I do not want to really go into the details of
each and every organ though I will mention that the commission is the prominent for all the
organs. It is divided into committees for purposes of expediting the work of the commission.
We have the steering committee. We have resource development and budgeting committee. We
have civic education. Information publicity and communication committee. We have research,
drafting and technical support committee. We have mobilisation. All these committees have
different functions, and these functions goes a long way ensuring that the work of the
commission is done well.
Secondly, we have the other organ as the Constituency Constitution Forum. It is also provided
for in the Act as I had said earlier. The basis of the Constituency Forum is found in section five
of the Constitution and which requires that the review process be accountable to the people of
Kenya and we provide the people of Kenya with an opportunity to actively, freely and
meaningfully participate in generating and debating proposals to alter the Constitution. It is the
lowest organ of the review. It must be founded in the Constituency as the name implies.
The main functions of this Constituency Constitution Forum is to encourage public debate on the
ground, facilitate civic education and also when it comes to the collection of the views that is
where the commission would be visiting.
We also have the National Constitutional Conference. This is also a very important organ of the
review process. Once the commissioners have gone round the field, once they have collected
and collated the views what happens is that they have to subject these views to the National
Constitutional Conference. The National Constitutional Conference is a representative. It will
include all the commissioners as ex-official member. It will also include all members of the
National Assembly. It will include three representatives from each district at least one of whom
shall be a woman and only one of whom who will be a councillor. It will also include one
representative from each political party registered at the commencement of this Act and such
number of representatives of religious organisations, professional bodies, women’s
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organisations, trade unions, Non Governmental Organisations registered at the commencement
of the Act. And these representatives may not be more than 25% of the total membership of the
conference. What will happen is the commission will present its findings to the National
Constitution Conference where now debates will take place and after that if there are views on
the draft document then it is passed on to the commissioners for purposes of cleaning it up so
that it can be taken to the National Assembly through the Attorney General.
Then we have another body, that is the referendum. The referendum is an optional organ. It is
not a must that the work of the commission must be subjected to the referendum. Why do we
have to have a referendum? In case there will not be a consensus in the National Constitution
Conference on the kind of the Constitution Kenyans should have then the same will be subjected
to electoral process and this is just like the usual electoral process we have under Kivuitu. In this
referendum, it is important also to note that Kenya has never had a history of the referendum as
Abida Ali had said that may be we would be borrowing it from other countries but the Act as at
now provides for a referendum. Then there after, the draft bill be taken to the final stage that is
the National Assembly. So it will upon our Members of Parliament to decide whether they are
going to give it a majority vote for purposes of the same being made into law. All these we
realise that the commission will play a very important role of course the role of the commission
is not even to give views, but to get the views of the wananchi so that the same can be drafted
and made into a bill for purpose of being made into law. Also in the National Assembly you find
that the commission has to retire. After that we will be through with our work and we leave it to
our Parliamentarians. They either make it into law or reject it.
We also have another very important organ and that is the documentation centres.
The
documentation centres the purpose is for the commission to store all that is required for purpose
of encouraging debate on the Constitution and also ensuring that our people that is the Kenyans
get to know about the Constitution and from there so that they can be able to come up with views
that can review the present Constitution or bring up a new Constitution. In these documentation
centres the Act provides that they will based in the district level though after going round the
provinces, we found as commissioners that majority of Kenyans wanted the same to even be kept
at lower levels may be even divisional levels. We have as a commission gone out of our way.
We are now moving towards establishing documentation centres and we are happy that we have
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co-ordinators with us. That is the major function actually they are trying to come up with right
now.
After that we also have, during the process of collecting views and even after collecting views up
to the point of the National Constitutional Forum what is the quorum required to pass the bill.
The Act provides that most of the decision making could be done by consensus but if there is no
consensus what happens. If there is no consensus in the National Constitution Conference then a
simple majority will do.
Also in the commission when we are making our own decision what will base most of our
decisions over the Saga that was going on sometimes back about our secretary and it was so
difficult until we were very privileged because he decided to resign on his own. The issue of the
two thirds majority came in.
You will realise now that all these organs of the review process are actually on the ground. Even
as much as the commission is stationed, the secretariat is stationed in Nairobi, we have
documentation centres in the districts. We also have the participation of Constitutional Forums
in the Constituencies. What happens is, we would really need the support of the Provincial
administration on going about our work. In fact we were wondering the other day and also
thinking is really possible to call a baraza involving the chief. I do not think, it is going to a bit
difficult unless we have we have the chief, unless also we get the support of other groups of
people like the religious organisation and all that. Thank you very much.
Com. Abida Ali: Thank you Alice. I will ask Lenaola to now get into business and then being
the Chair will take the priviledge of adding to meet to what they have said at the end of it.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: Thank you Madam Chair. I will be very brief. Thank you Alice for being
brief also. Let me take you through the functions of the various of organs of the riview process.
You may now revise section 17 of the Act. It says out in details the functions of the first organ
which is the commission.
1.
The commission is mandated to conduct and facilitate civic education. In order to
stimulate public discussion and awareness of issues about the Constituton.
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2.
The commission ought to collect and collate views. So the commission will go and
harvest views from Kenyans and then reduce them into that document called the
Constitution. That is the collection of the views.
3.
The commission is mandated to carry out studies, research and evaluations concerning
our Constitution and other Constitutions. This is the comparative aspect of the review
process.
4.
The commission is supposed to examine and recommend the composition and functions
of the organs of the state. This is the executive and the judiciary.
5.
It is also mandated to examine the structures of Government including the federal system,
unitary system, confederate system, all systems of Government. Debate on issues and
then recommend the appropriate. Sorry, we are supposed to examine the structure of
Government. This is the federal system, the unitary system and then recommend the
appropriate system for Kenyans. So the debate going on now about Majimbo, about
Unitary System is part of the debate. The commission is supposed to listen to the views
of Kenyans and then recommend an appropriate system for this country and that is only
after we have heard all the views of Kenyans as we collect these views.
6.
We are also supposed to examine and recommend improvements to the existing
Constitutional Commissions, Institutions and offices. In doing that we are supposed
respect the human rights, gender equity and to ensure that there is an enabling
environment for economic, social, religious, political and cultural development.
7.
We are also going to examine and recommend improvements to the electoral system.
Kenyans are very particular about the election and so we are supposed to ensure an
appropriate system of elections is put within the Constitution.
8.
We are also supposed to look at the judiciary. We are supposed to look at the court
system. Is the present system appropriate for Kenyans? and if not what system can we
recommend in the judiciary.
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9.
The commission also is supposed to examine and review the place of Local Government.
Local Government as you are aware is a very important institution just as the
Government is and we are supposed to recommend an appropriate system of Local
Government.
10.
We are also supposed to look at matters of land and land rights. A lot of issues arise
today about Government land, trust land we are supposed to recommend improvements
that will secure the fullest enjoyment of land and other property rights. If you look at the
Njonjo Commission for example, the are doing much the same function.
Our
understanding is that Njonjo commission will go deeply into land isssues and the report
will be delivered to us as part of our functions and mandate under this Section 17.
11.
We are also supposed to examine and review the management and use of public finances
and recommend improvements to that function.
12.
We are also supposed to look at the issues of citizenship and ensure gender equality in the
conformity of the right to citizenship. Today for example in Kenya the law is that if you
are a Kenyan man marrying foreign it is automatic that she becomes a citizen. But if you
are a Kenyan woman marrying a foreign man, citizenship is very difficult. I can say this
from experience of course. My wife is from West Africa and I got her citizenship within
one hour and yet I know of my colleagues who have married foreign men take three years
to become citizens. So we are supposed to recommend improvements to citizenship.
13.
We supposed to look at social cultural obstacles that promote various forms of
discrimination and recommend the improvements to secure equal rights. What it means
is that we are supposed to look for example, if you heard this issue of the minority groups
saying they are being sat on. The Logiet, the Dolois and so on we need to look at those
issues and recommend improvements to ensure that all Kenyans despite ethnic
imbalances, despite races imbalances, despite cultural imbalances that we have equal
rights to the law and to the rights of the country.
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14.
We are also supposed to recommend and review the rights of the child. Often times we
ignore the children and we are supposed to look at the right of the children and
recommend improvements to ensure that there is protection of the child within the
conducts of the law.
15.
We are also supposed to examine and review succession to office and recommend a
suitable system for the smooth and transferring power after election. We are very lucky in
this country in terms of the Presidency that we have never had problem in terms of
succession. But we are supposed to look at that issue for posterior the future. How do
we have a system that will ensure that transfer of power from regime, from one institution
to another is smooth and dignified.
16.
We are also supposed to look at the issue of treaty making. This is the way to contest the
international law.
How to ensure that our treaties are within the contest of the
international law regime and also to ensure that Kenyans obligations on international law
are kept within the law.
17.
We are also to examine and make recommendations of the necessity of principles of state
policy. If you look at the Constitution today, it does not have any principles to indicate
what sort of country we are. It only says Kenya is a republic. It does not go to say what
that means. It is also go on to say that Kenya is mashabi ya multiparty state. It does not
say what that means. So we are supposed to have principles which guide the National
Philosophy. Which guides the National totally.
18.
We are also supposed to establish and appoint the principle of public accountability by
holders of all political offices. This issue has been coming up for the last ten years. How
do you ensure that PCs, DCs, Commissioners are accountable to the public. Public
resources are used to ensure that we work but what principles guides and governs the way
we conduct ourselves in public offices.
19.
We are also supposed to examine and make recommendations on any other matter and
this is a very wide function. If Kenyans today come up a view which is really outside the
Act we are supposed as a commission to take up and give appropriate view regard to it.
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Let me now turn to the Constituency Forum. What are its functions? The functions are:
That these committees and the forum may be used as areas of debate and discussion amongst
Kenyans on issues of the Constitution. So like Alice said it is the lowest institution and yet it is a
place where Kenyans can debate, argue on issues of the Constitution and then the Commission
will harvest those views from the forum.
The National Constitution Conference as Alice said it will be the biggest and most representative
of all the organs of the Review. At the Conference we are expected to debate again, discuss and
adopt with, without amendments, the report and draft bill prepared by the commission. Professor
Ghai keeps on saying that this Conference will sit for as long as it takes to take to debate on the
issues that have been brought forward by the commission. We were estimating the other day it
could take three weeks. Perhaps it can take two months but this conference ought to debate
exhaustively all the issues and then either make amendments to the report or adopt it. If they
cannot agree on this particular issue, for example let me give you the most current issue for
debate. Suppose at the National Conference a group of Kenyans says we want majimbo, another
group says we do not want majimbo, when they come to vote, the majimbo issue does not take
prominent. What then happens, we go to the next item of the review which is a referendum. The
referendum is supposed to ensure that all the contentious issues at the National Conference are
resolved by Yes or No vote. If you recall the Uganda example where they had the movement
referendum.
Ugandans were being asked, do you want multiparties or do you want the
movement to remain. That was by the way of a referendum. It was clear everybody was
supposed to say yes to the movement or no to the movement and that is the optional organ of the
referendum that we are going to have in our system.
What is the role of the National Assembly in Parliament. Mheshimiwa Lumande is there and he
will drafted the bill. They gave themselves the function that when the bill is discussed and
approved at the National Conference, the commission shall then through the Attorney General,
prepare a final report draft bill which the Attorney General will present to Parliament for
enactment. Parliament will be the body that will now enact the new Constitution. After all the
debates, Parliament is the last body to say this is now your new Constitution which shall govern
you hopefully for generations to come.
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Information centres. Like Mrs Yano said these centres are supposed to be at the very low levels.
We were saying ourselves that they were supposed to be in districts but we heard during our
tours that people were saying lets have them at the divisional level, at chief’s office, at church,
in schools. Their functions is, there are supposed to be open at all times of the day. If you want
to refer for example to a document which Lenaola has prepared in Nairobi you can then refer to
it in your information centre in Keiyo. So we circulate all the documents that emanate from the
Commission through out the district. We also imagine that if for example I give a view in Nandi
, that document should be read by a man in Liboi in Garrisa. That is the purpose of the
information centres.
All these organs of review are supposed to facilitate the work or of the commission which at the
end of the day one simple thing to enact a new Constitution to the republic of Kenya. Thank you
Madam Chairman.
Com. Abida Ali: Thank you Lenaola. I just sit here as Lenaola was thinking and I realise by
coincidence the three of us are lawyers so I hope we are passing the message across and not what
we like doing best in court complicating issues but we are here for dialogue and we should be
able clarify but I believe we are using the best language possible to pass across the message.
I have been informed that we have the Chairman of the Turkana and he preferes a language other
than English. Probably I will just summarise for him what we have said so that we are all
together. I will be indicating to you also that the Act requires that we conduct our business with
people in the language that they understand. Chairman wa Turkana ni matumaini yangu kwamba
unaelewa Kiswahili. Where is he? Tunaweza kukutafsiria kwa Kiswahil tafadhali.
Sasa mkutano huyu wetu wa leo, tumekuja kukutana na sisi na haswa watu wa administration ili
tuweze kuona ni vipi tunaweza kufanya kazi pamoja ili tuweze kurekebisha au kuandika upya
Katiba yetu ya Kenya na haswa leo tunataka tuweze kuweleana kuhusu, utapata kifungu cha
sheria tatu A kiko kwa hiyo mfuko wako bado hatujaiweka kwa tafsiri ya Kiswahili lakini
matumaini yetu ni kwamba pengine kabla ya mwisho wa mwaka tutakuwa tumetafsiri mambo
haya yote kwa Kiswahili. Sasa hii inaonyesha vile Tume yetu itakapofanya kazi na vipi tukavyo
shirikiana na kuweza kuchukua maoni ya wananchi. Sasa tumetoa historia kwa kifupi ya vile
Serikali ilijaribu kuleta marekebisho ya Katiba tukaangalia jinsi Serikali ilitoa sheria mwaka wa
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1997, sheria hiyo ikakatiliwa hasa na watu waupinzani, makanisa na vikudi ambavyo havikuwa
vya Serikali. Serikali ikasikiza hicho kilio cha watu hao ambao walisema hata ingawa Serikali
ina nguvu ya kutengeeza sheria lakini kwa sababu Katiba ndio sheria kuu katika nchi, ni lazima
serikali ipate kusikiza maoni ya wananchi na maoni ya viongozi wengine.
Serikali ilipofanya hivyo, wakaita vikao karibu kumi na tano huko Nairobi. Wakauliza vikudi
ambavyo vingependa kujiwasilisha vivike mbele na kueleza ni kwanini havikupendelea sheria
hiyo ilio tengeezwa mwaka wa tisini na saba. Mwaka wa 1998 kukatolewa sheria nyingine.
Kama hii wakafanya mabandiliko ili kuweza kutekeleza maoni ya watu ambao walikuwa
wanapiga kelele. Ilipotengeezwa hiyo sheria ikasemekana kwamba kutakuwa na Tume ya watu
ishirini na tano kuandika Katiba ya nchi na wanasiasa ndio wakawa na uzito fulani kwasababu
walipewa nafasi ya watu kumi na watatu na watu kumi na wa wawili walipewa vikundi ambavyo
havikuwa vya serikali. Vikundi vya akina mama, vya kanisa, vikundi vya watu walemavu wote
wakatoa watu wao lakini ikawa na siasa hawakukubaliana kwa wale watu kumi na tatu. Ndio
kukawa na mzozo na sheria ikarundishwa thena bunge, kukaudwa tume ya Bunge ili kuweza
kutatua mambo haya. Watu ambao walikuwa wasema kwamba hawakuasilishwa mwanzoni
wakakataa na wakasema haya mambo si mambo ya wanasiasa peke yao wakajitenga na
kutengeeza kikao ambacho pengine ulisikia kinaitwa Ufungamano. Sasa wao wakaanza Tume
yao na wakaanza kutembeea kote nchini hata walifika huku Riftvalley walikwenda Nakuru
kuchukua maoni ya wananchi. Nayo serikali kupitia Bunge ikawa imetengeeza Tume yake ya
watu kumi na tano watu hawa kumi na tano walipoapishwa wakaketi na kufikiria kwamba
wakiwa chini ya mtu ambaye anaitwa Professor Yash Ghai wakasema kwamba kwa ubora ya
nchi yetu haifai kuwa na Tume mara mbili. Kwa sababu kulikuwa na ugawanyishaji hata katika
Bunge na kuweza kupitisha kupitisha mswaada kama huu lazima upate aslimia sabini na tano
kwa Bunge kupitisha mswaada wa Katiba. Sasa ikawa ni lazima vikundi hivi viwili viungane.
Sasa kuanza mwezi wa kumi na moja, mwaka wa elfu mbili mpaka mwaka huu mwezi wa sita
kukawa kuna vikao vingi baina ya Serikali na watu wa Ufungamano na hatimaye kukaandikwa
au kukarekebishwa sasa ile kifungo cha sheria cha mwaka wa 1998 tukapata hii ya 2001 na
Tume zile zikaungaishwa ndio sasa tukawa na Tume ambayo inaanza kurekebisha Katiba ya nchi
hii.
Tumetazama kazi ya Tume, tumetazama sehemu tofauti ambazao sitafanya kazi hii. Tume ni
sehemu moja tu katika mpangilio wa kazi. Kuna sehemu ambayo itahusisha uwakilishi Bungeni
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tutakuja kwenye Costitutency na kuketi na kuchukuwa maoni ya wananchi. Hiyo ni sehemu
muhimu sana katika kazi yetu kwa sababu ni sehemu kwa sababu tunashurutishwa kuandika
maoni ya wanakenya. Hatuwezi sisi watu ishirini na tisa tukaandika maoni.
Halafu kuna sehemu nyingine ambao itakuwa ni kikao cha kitaifa. Kutakuwa na wakilishi ya
pata mia tano au mia sita. Kutakuwa na Wabunge, kutakuwa na Commission, kutakuwa na
waakilishi wa dini bali bali, na kutakuwa na watu watatu kutoka kwa kila Constituency na kati
ya hao kati ya wale watu watatu lazima kuwe na mama mmoja na kijana mmoja ambao
watawakilisha kikao hicho wakati ambapo tutakuwa na hiyo ambayo inaitwa National
Constitutional Conference. Katika Conference hiyo, italazimu Wakenya kusoma report ambao
tutakuwa tumeaandika.
Tukishachukua maoni ya wananchi tutaketi , tujadiriane tuweze
kuandika report. Hiyo report tutaituma tena kwenu kwa muda wa miezi miwili muisome ili
waakiliishi mtakao tuma, wawe wameelewa na wanakuja sasa kujadiriana na Wakenya wenzao
ili tukubariane ni Katiba ya aina gani tunataka kuwa nayo hapa nchini. Sasa ikiwa katika kikao
hicho cha kitaifa watu watakubaliana na wawe na kauli mmoja na msimamo mmoja tutachukuwa
report hiyo tupeleke Bunge ili iweze kupasishwa kama Katiba ya nchi hii.
Ikiwa
kunatashwishwi na hatukuweza kupata kauli mmoja, itatubidi tufanye kura ya maoni. Na kura
ya maoni kwa mfano Bwana Lenaola alitueleza, ilifanywa kule Uganda. Hapo kutatolewa
maswali ambayo hatukuweza kupata kauli moja ili wananchi tena warundi wapige hiyo kura ya
maoni. Kwa mfano, watu huu watu wanzungumza sana kuhusu aina ya serikali. Kuna wale
wanazungumzia majimbo kuna wale wanasema wanataka Serikali imbakie ilivyo kuwa. Ikiwa
kwa mfano hatukuweza kukubaliana katika kikao hicho, tutatuma kura ya maoni ili wananchi
wenyewe direct watueleze wangependa Serikali ya aina gani. Lakini hiyo kura ya maoni si
lazima tutaifanya tu tukiwa tutalazimika.
Bunge ndiyo itakuwa ya mwisho ambapo watachukuwa report yetu na kuitengeeza ili iwe
Katiba ya nchi hii. Kwa kifupi ingawa tumesema maneno nyingi lakini kwa kifupi hayo ndiyo
mambo ambayo tumezungumza, na hasa tungetaka tuone vile tutajadirana ili tuweza kufanya
kazi hii. Asante.
I just wanted to mention the rules and regulations that governs the Review Commission. More
importantly may what we would like you to see are sections that we have talked about for
instance section 12 of that talks about removal of a commissioner or the secretary. Alice
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mentioned to you how we could not remove our secretary because what we required was two
thirds majority. This indicates to you the seriousness with which the commission works that it is
not easy for anybody to make allegations or which hunts another commissioner or the secretary
unless there is a consensus where we have the two thirds majority.
The other section that you may wish to look at also is section 14 of that paper that gives in details
the committees of the commission. Alice mentioned to you that we work in committees. Our
functions are so wide and our time are so limited that if the whole commission was for instance
to go for these provincial tours, I think it have taken us probably three months. We will be
working in panels. In fact even in the collection of views we will have a larger panel than this to
ensure to you and the rest of the Kenyans that the panel will be constituted of five people and
hopefully the five people will be able to relate back to the larger commission the views of all
Kenyans.
Also our ordinary business like Alice said is also constituted with working
committees.
We have talked about documentation centres and that is also provided for. I believe in section 26
where it says that the commission will establish documentation centres in County councils and in
all district headquarters. In fact it was brought to our knowledge and we are happy that we have
the DC for Tranzoia that our District Co-ordinator is yet to get an office and we will dialogue
more privately because it is very important that the District Co-ordinator
Interjection: The DO
Com Abida Ali:
The DO. Oh I am sorry. I am promoting you but that is good lack. I am
wishing you well. So that he can be able to establish the documentation centre. So we would be
probably paying you a courtesy call if time does not allow we will be asking you to assist us
because that is the requirement of the law. The County Councils have no choice by law but to
avail space for us to have these documentation centres because we believe that this will be the
link between all Kenyans. We intend to make sure that we stock the documentation centres in
such a way that a person in Tranzoia will be able to see either a video cassette of views being
given let say in Mombasa, the person in Tranzoia will be able to read if we have those facilities
through the internet memoranda that has been given and in a few days we will be establishing
our website to allow people in different areas to go to our centres and be able to access the
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internet. We also physically have the views stored at the documentation centres and all other
documents that we think are relevant in as many languages as possible so this is really a vital
organ.
Like you see the regulations require that we establish that and indeed the Act also requires I
believe in section 23. In section 23 Act state very clearly that not withstanding the provision of
any other written law the county council of every district shall facilitate the establishment by the
commission of a document a centre. So it is mandatory for the county council Bwana DO, so we
hope that you will be able to assist us with this understanding in mind that the county councils do
not have a choice. Because we want to work together, we want to be diplomatic in that and we
believe that you will be able to assist us in that.
Alice spoke at length about our organs and she was referring to section 4 of the Act and of
course section 23 that we have looked at. The only other thing that I want to add may be
because I was listening to Alice is that before we go to the National Conference, we will have
collated the views and disseminated. We intend to disseminate this report and we are going to
use your structures in terms of the DOs the Chiefs, the Subchiefs and any other structure that will
avail to us to disseminate that report so that:
1.
Kenyans are sure that we have written a report faithfully taking into account the views
that we received.
2.
We would want people to debate so that their representatives to the National Conference
know exactly what the issues are.
So we will disseminate for a period of two months and there after call the National Conference.
The other thing that I wanted to probably to have a look at, are the powers of the commission and
more specifically section 18 of the Act that tells you exactly what the Act empowers the
commission to do and then probably you can tell us exactly in our discussion later, how you
think we can have an input from you and mainly the fact that we have already informed you that
we will visit every Constituency for collection of views and that we shall without any hindrance
receive memoranda in public and private hearings. So in each case we may looking up to you
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probably to help us in terms of security because we know like an area in Riftvalley there are
divergent views.
So we would want protection from you and collaboration so that when
somebody talks about majimbo, those who talk of unitary are able to contain themselves and you
know sometimes when we have the administration around then citizens tend to be law abiding.
(Laughter)
The other issue is that the commission may call any one of you as a public officer. We may
summon you if we believe that you views that are relevant and important to the process, we will
summon you but we do not intend to do what the court do. We intend again to be very
diplomatic and as we want to work with you we hope that we will have that kind of co-operation
that you will free to come and give us the necessary information. In case we fail in our
diplomacy that a public officer may be charged with an offence and liable not to a lot of money
but quiet substantial knowing how our economy is.
The other thing that Alice mentioned is about consensus building in the Review process. I think
she explained in details but section 21 of the Acts is actually very clear on that. It actually says
that when we are doing our ordinary business if we do not have consensus then we have a simple
majority vote. But the only thing that I wanted to highlight is that if there is a proposal of
Constitutional nature then we require two thirds majority. So we made that distinctions that if
we are doing our ordinary administrative issues then we go by simple majority but because this is
an important exercise if there is any issue that touches on the Constitution we have no choice but
to arrive at a consensus which we ordinarily do so far but once in a while we have had to vote
and it has to be by two thirds majority.
The other thing that probably we need to also remind ourselves is that apart from the different
stages that we have enumerated to you, the other very important aspect of the review process is
civic education. We intend to start civic education in a few days in fact we taking this meeting
also to be part of civic education because we are trying to understand the relevant organs and we
probably deliberate on issues that touch on civic education.
The other we want to mention to you that due to financial constraints and time limitations we are
going to use civic education providers the commission will identify providers that are going to
collaborate with us for purposes of using our curriculum and I am not so sure whether we carried
curriculum for you that we will be distributing on the topics. These are very sensitive topics so
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that we will be asking for your collaboration for you to allow Kenyans to deliberate peacefully
whatever issues that we will raise in the curriculum because it is only through dialogue that we
believe we will arrive at a consensus and at provisions that are going to last this country a longer
period.
We are also going to distribute in a few days time questionnaires that are also going to touch on
very sensitive issues where we are going to ask Kenyans to decide on those issues amongst
others when they are giving their views to us and civic education will be on going throughout the
process because right now we will strictly speaking go about in our curriculum but as we go to
the National Constituency Forum, when we are disseminating the report we will also be doing it
inform of civic education and before the referendum if the need arises we will also having civic
education to enable people know how to go about referendum which is really a new phenomenal
in our country. The other important aspect is that the Act, may Alice will help me look at that
section that empowers us to carry out civic education. The Commission is empowered, this is on
section 24, we are empowered to facilitate promote and conduct that is a very wide mandate of
the Commission has been given and as we all know, there has been a very heated debate about
who carries out civic education. The position of the Commission is that we will work as many
providers as possible for as long as them meet our criteria, they meet our conduct our code of
conduct which you will see it is appended in our curriculum and will not spread propaganda
because we are really a commission for the whole country, we are non-partisan and we do not
expect our providers to take sides. And also the fact that we do not intend to interfere with civic
educators already on the ground. We know that different churches have been conducting civic
education, we know that there is also a group calling itself the National Civic Education
Providers. They are already on the ground. They are using Non Governmental Organisations.
We have looked at their curriculum and believe that if they are non-partisan, they will not really
be stepping on anybody’s toes. We wish to request that for as long as they conducting their civic
education in a peaceful manner, in a non-partisan manner because we know that is their
requirement. They are required to be non-partisan that we should allow them so that as many
Kenyans as possible are able to get civic education. So we do not intend to interfere with anyone
but we intend to collaborate with them to reach as many Kenyans as possible.
The other issue that we do not like discussing very much as a Commission but I am forced to
indicate that I would like us to bring out is the issue of time frame. We have about a year I think
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to conclude our work. If you look at the functions of the Commission and the objectives I think
we would have to work more than twenty four hours to complete this task. And the Act that you
have gives us an option, Lenaola will remind me of the section, I tend to forget the section, that
gives for an opportunity to ask for extension of time should we deem it is necessary and to give
reasons why we cannot produce a Constitution by the end of the year. It is our hope as a
Commission that we will be able to conclude our work but the truth of the matter is it looks like a
tall order for us but we are assuring to work as hard as we can to complete that task.
From our deliberations with members of the public, it has been made very clear to us that we
should not peg the time frame of the Commission to the elections. And true enough, as much as
we have to address the electoral system, our mandate has absolutely nothing to do with the
forthcoming elections but we realise that as we have to discuss the system of Government that it
is important for this country, we have to discuss the electoral commission that to some extent we
have to look at how best we will approach the forth coming election because asking Kenyans to
go for elections in the year 2002, if we will not have completed our task is then saying if we
complete our task there after, there might be a change in the system of Government, there might
be a change in the electoral system. So those are the things that we need to discuss about and see
what is the way forward and what sort of calendar are we talking a bout in able to achieve a
Constitution that will be acceptable and will carry the aspirations and wishes of Kenyans.
With that I think we will end our session and we will invite one of you from the provincial
administration. I am told the DC Uasin Gishu will be helping us but if you wish may be we
could go for tea and then come back so that we can give the DC that time to tell us what he
thinks the role of the administration is and then get into discussions, before we break for lunch,
should we go for tea? May be you are fasting. I am fasting so I should go on (laughter) but I
think we should have tea. Tea should be ready for now. What is the feeling. Thank you for
listening to us. You are welcome.
Com. Alice Yano: A very important session of our workshop today that is the role of the
Provincial Administration and the structure. I am very grateful for the DC Mr. David Adan who
has agreed to give us an overview of the same. Thank you Mr. Adan.
Interjection: (laughter)
Page 26 of 182
District Commissioner David Adan: Our Commissioners who are present, the District Coordinators, my colleagues in the administration and the gentlemen of the press. Before I address
the Commissioners the role of Provincial Administration, I would like first of all to say that we
in the Administration in certain areas in this country, I think we are looked at differently but I am
happy that with role placed here, I do not think we have a problem where you hear the
administration is not working closely with the politician is where the politicians does not perhaps
like the establishment. And I think this morning you have seen for yourself the District Officer
One West Pokot and his Member of Parliament from Sigor Honourable Omatta. They were
shaking hands very properly and shows the Commissioners the co-operation that they have on
the ground. I would also the Commissioners want to say that you may be surprised as to why not
all of us are here as the DCs. I think the communication was not there. We just saw it on the
paper that we are supposed to be here. I would suggest that in future I think the secretariat can
channel our invitations through the Provincial Commissioners I think that makes things easy.
And all of us we have fax machines though not the emails. So that there is that flow of
information so that you can reach us.
We also know that in this country the role of Provincial Administration has gone through a lot of
processes immediately after being independent, the administrators were to mobilise people and
to put law and order. In the 70s it changed and more specially in the 80s and up to now what we
are doing we are actually doing development administration. In other words we are mobilising
our people to develop their various places. Let me say that including myself and my colleagues
if we want to call for a baraza, it will very difficult for us unless we use that village elder. A
village elder is a very important person at the grassroots. If today the commissioners would
like to meet the people of Keiyo South, as a DC what I will simply do is pass to him the DO and
say please at 2.00 p.m the Commissioners are coming to talk to our people. What he will simply
do is inform the chief and that chief will call the assistant chief and that assistant chief will now
go to the various villages elders. So their positions by destroying the structure is that at the
grassroots where the people are we have the villagers. Although the role of the village is to
immobilise these people by he is not enumerated in any way. It is out of trust for the people that
he has been recognised that this is our leader and anything that is to be done he is the one to tell
us. And the we will have the assistant chief who will also play important role in disseminating
information and mobilisation of the people. Then we have the chief, the DO and our officers.
But our rule is very crucial. In that one:
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Because of the transformation that we have undergone that people have a lot of respect for the
administrators because they believe and they have seen as the representatives (inaudible) this is
why you may find we have a few of them and those are individuals in various places in this
country and I as I said you know in the Riftvalley here we do not have that problem. And let me
assure the commissioners and the co-ordinators that you have our full support in the
immobilisation of the people to the tune of the civic education that we have started it. And I am
sorry to say that those earlier for civic education in some places I stand to be corrected is that the
civic education that has been conducted is portraying to be against certain individuals, may be
against the establishment but to me personally I do not think that is the correct way in a
conducting the civic education. Personally I usually tell people, I am the DC but people should
also realise that I am also a citizen of this country and as a Kenyan I also have a right to also
discuss and give my views as a Kenyan citizen. And this is why sometime when we hear people
saying we do not want provincial administration to conduct civic education you are forgetting the
fact that I am a Kenyan citizen. It is only for the seat of the DC that I am sitting on now but in
giving my view I will give my view as an individual and as a citizen of this country. Therefore,
we all have normal tasks to tell our people to treat this animal. In fact I have got several copies of
the Constitution to give to the people, this is what we are talking about the Constitution. Look at
it. Look at the judiciary, look at the National Assembly, what can you say about it because in
one way or the other, it is good to touch all of us and therefore, the Provincial Administration
plays a central role in the immobilisation of the citizens of this country. Unless it is who has a
problem but the way we know this province we do not have a problem ourselves. This is why
immediately after the Provincial Seminar we took it upon ourselves. We are also surprised to
hear Kitale co-ordinator has his office. I am surprised (laughter) and I know very well that in
Kitale Museum we have a beautiful hall. But I am sure all of us here we are very comfortable
with our co-ordinators like my colleague here Bwana Kipkemo he has gotten two offices. He
has one from the county coucil, he has another one in the District Information and
Documentation Centre. I wish to say that the Commission itself would probably immobilise the
wananchi to come and give their views. Those days when we used to administer (inaudible)
they were no members then. We are asked people like yesterday we took the Commissioners
from the Poverty eradication and participants to the district and left to talk for themselves on
their own projects. This is the way people can come and give their views.
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Otherwise Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen, I do not think I have a problem with this
process. Let me assure you on behalf of my colleagues I am sure my policy can say and from the
bottom of my heart let me assure you once again we have no problem. Thank you very much.
(clapping)
Com. Abida Ali: Thank you very much Bwana DC we are very happy with what you just told
us about the structure and the role of provincial administration. I think as commissioners we are
very grateful for the fact that part from having a real organised structure starting from the village
elder who in this case is not even enumerated way up to the PC and the rest we also play a major
role and we hope that that role also could be extended to us and to our functions for the purpose
of immobilisation and also co-ordinating our activities from up that is the provincial level to the
ground level.
There is also this issue of communication. I think as you are all aware, we have just gotten a
secretary, I think he is about a month old, three weeks old right now. He is trying to organise the
office of the Secretariat and I think may be within a very short well we will be very well coordinated and we may not have the same problems that we are seeing right now. I think I do not
have to add anything to what Mr. DC has said. Thank you.
Interjection: (inaudible) What I can only tell you is that the DCs, the entire administration right
from the top are well equipped to handle any situation including those of which we are now
doing. I only want to add one thing that for quite sometime now we have had some suspicions by
many stakeholders of this country. From the Disctrit Commissioners, the DOs the Chiefs for the
role they play. Therefore, we have had no working relationship with many people. You realise
that some politicians when the (inaudible) was abolished but to me that was for selfish reasons.
The Government in this country has served this country well. What we are now doing is to
change to adapt to the new situations and ways of doing things.
I would like you the commissioners because even at the beginning of these Aids Committee,
Constitution Committees even the MPs were against us being in the committee but I can assure
you that I after going it alone after sometime, they had to come back on their knees to seek for
assistance from these people. Even the Commission themselves were still having that problem.
We are happy that you are now coming back. (laughter) I will tell you what we have been told
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that the Chairman of the Commission was asked ask go and pay a courtesy call in one of our
senior officers in the province and the Chairman said no I am going to the venue and in the
venue the fellow was sitting alone. Let me tell you now and here that if we are to succeed in this
very crucial process we have to play a key role particularly on the civic education. We know
that we have got the capacity and the power to mobilise people to come and listen to you.
Because what we want to do is to have a ground to listen to and that we have the capacity.
We would like to assure you that so long as there is no suspicion, so long as you can remove that
barrier between you and ourselves, we in the Government, and administration particularly are
ready. In fact we are working with you for the success of this process. So I wanted to echo what
the DC said and assured you earlier that we are going to support the process to the end. I can tell
you thing and the Chairman is here, the Chairman of Samburu and the Chairman of Turkana that
even a councillor cannot call a meeting. Now I can tell you a councillor cannot call a Baraza
and get a quorum unless the village elder is involved. So what we are saying I am discussing
about a key role and the importance of a key role. It is not that the PC have no power but with
the help of the assistant chief, we will be able to get a lot of support.
All we are saying chairman is that we are together and we know that success of this Constitution
Review is our success as country. We cannot afford to say we can’t support you but the only
thing we want to do is to break those barriers and suspicions that some people want to create so
that we can be able to move on. Thank you.
Com Abida Ali: Thank you very much (inaudible)
Interjection: Thank you very much Madam Chairlady. I think mine is just to correct an
impression which I think we are getting to get that may be the Provincial Adminstration in
Transzoia is not with our Co-ordinator. What I would like to assure you is that our co-ordinator
actually has an office but what he has not done is that he has not taken the possession of the
office. I am saying that and he is aware of that because we have discussed this even with the
council and he has been physically shown the office base but there were a few administrative
itches within the council. Thank very much. (clappping)
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Com Abida Ali:
Thank you very much for the assurance.
Thank very much for that
administration. We are very happy that the Provincial Administration is ready and willing to
work with the commission in furtherance of our objective in coming up with a Constitution for
this country. I am also happy and we are also very happy that we have members of the electronic
both and prints media you have heard what our Provincial Administrators have said and I think
we will all of us work towards encouraging that kind of facilitation.
On the issue of, it is good Bwana DC raised the issue of Embu, I think most of it was lack of
ignorance and I think it something we corrected immediately and we are aware that there is no
way as commissioners that we can do this work properly and for the benefit of the Kenyan if we
do not recognise the importance of Provincial administration both in the structure they have and
also in the role they can play. We also had a small incident in Kisumu and we also corrected it
very well and we are very happy.
I think right now we will handle over this session to
Commissioner Lenaola to share so that we can be able to discuss areas of collaboration that is the
Commissioners, the Co-ordinators the DCs the Dos and whoever is here.
Com. Isaac Lenaola:
What you have heard from the Commission in terms of what the
Commission is supposed to do, we have heard from administration in terms of what they can do
and let us now bring our heads together and have an open discussion where we can see a
document and discuss areas where we can collaborate. We have just heard one area that office
space is one area of collaboration. Let us then open the discussion to further responses and those
who have visions from (inaudible)
District Co-ordinator: Mr Chairman one area you can help us is in the mobilisation process
and of course security. So we appreciate and what the District Commissioners have said that
they have demonstrated that and as you said it is very difficult for me as the co-ordinator to
actually call these people without going through these people, the chief the assistant chiefs the
village elders and so forth. So when they call a meeting it is well attended people respond and
they leave me to learn my show which I really appreciate. I think as co-ordinators in mobilising
the people and trying to harvest ideas they play a key role. So I conquer and I am happy to know
they also say that they will be willing and they have already given us offices when they got the
letters from the commission, county council chairman, we received very positive response. The
good will is there they are asking quite a lot of questions. Where is the majimbo Constitution,
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where is the current Constitution, we need to read to it. Where can I give my views and so forth.
So we have the good will and this is very healthy to the process. So I think with those few
remarks I say I think we are in the right direction.
Interjection: (Inaudible)
Com. Isaac Lenaola: Thirdly there is the DO. Any other response. Yes Bwana DO.
District Commissioner: The co-ordinators and those who are going to carry on this process may
not be having enough transport. I think it will also be our role to see that they get transport to
wherever they are going because they may not having enough vehicles to travel to various areas
of the districts. So I think also that a role we might be able to cheap in.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: That is a very crucial point. There is also question of mobility and that is
important. Thank you.
Mr Sigei: I would like to mention that one area of collaboration is also the area of sensitisation.
Since this is a new concept in our communities, it will require a lot of education for people to
know what they would expect when this process is going on. The area I come from nobody has
ever heard or known about the Constitution, what is the Constitution and so on. So even the
Provincial Administration in collaboration with County councils the councillors, join together.
Our roles are almost similar. Only that we do not have the mandate to call the meetings as the
DC because they are the ones who provide the permit and something like that (laughter) so I
think we need to build that collaboration in the first stage so that we all do the exercise together.
(inaudible) I want to believe that many Kenyans do not know the Constitution leave alone local
people. You ask aybody who has gone to University and ask him about the Constitution. They
do not know. So what I want to do because the basis of our review should start from the
existence of the Constitution. So what are you doing to tell people that is the Constitution. This
is what we have in the local language now can you tell us where you want us to change or
overhaul, that is where we to start. I was talking with my officers here and that is going too far
because (laughter) to talk about Kenyans who have gone to school they are not aware about the
Constitution, how would we start talking about something you do not know.
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Com. Isaac Lenaola: Let me Com. Abida respond to that what we are doing to sensitise
Kenyans generally on that.
Com. Abida Ali: Thank Chairman. Mr Sigei what you are saying is really a crucial issue and I
think most people do not understand the Constitution. The other thing that comes to mind is that
the Constitution we have is so complicated that even if you got hold of it and read it even
lawyers do not understand it. So what we are hoping to do as a commission is that when we
carry out civic education we have a whole section that deals with the current Constitution that
will look at the various Constitution of the world as well so that by the end of the exercise the
first phase of civic education will have educated as many Kenyans as possible. We are also
having radio programmes every Sundays we have from 10.00 a.m to 1.00 p.m in Kiswahil where
we explain the different issues that arise from our current Constitution and invite callers to ask
whatever questions they have. The same programme is repeated 2.00p.m to 4.00p.m in the
afternoon in the general service and we are also trying to see whether we could simplify that
Constitution. By the way in other part of the world a good example is South Africa, you should
see their Constitution. It is a small booklet that everybody can read and is translated I think in
almost all the languages in South Africa.
What we are hoping to do is to be able to distribute a pocket constitution that was prepared by
Public Law Institute translate in Kiswahili. Our finances do not allow us to do it in local
languages so that any person who understands English or Swahili can be able to read and also
hoping that those who will understand will be able to pass it on to other people. Shortly we also
start programmes in the languages that KBC reaches so that we can be able to explain in
languages that people understand the best. It is a very cardinal point and the commission is
trying to do what it can to enable all of us understand the current Constitution and also
understand the different issues. And I do not what is a good example but the same have been
talking about the system of Government. You know we want Kenya to know all when we talk
of federalism we want Kenyans to know the different types of federalism and then be able to
borrow and come up with something that is home made. We also want people to look at unitary
because lots of Kenyans do not know what sort of a Government that we have been having for
the last thirty eight years or so.
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We are trying to do our best but the other feeling that there is although this is not for most part of
the country is that there areas that have received civic education and from our experience
elsewhere, you know we feel also in a way that Kenyans know what they want. Because are
talking about basic needs and basic rights that we do not really need to spend months trying to
teach Kenyans. The person may not be able to fit in a Constitutional language. That is not their
business, that is the business of the commission. That is why we have Constitutional Experts
sitting in the Commission. So that when we go to Turkana or Samburu if somebody says I
require shelter, I require medicine, those are Constitutional issues. We are talking about basic
rights. It is for us to translate. The truth of the matter is Kenyans know what they want but to
give them the benefit of doubt we will engage them in civic education for a number of months
before we reach out to them. But it is not something that we want to make a co-business of the
Commission but whatever we can do we will try to do.
District Commissioner: We are going to talk about civic education. But I thought there should
be rules also. Rules of the game. You have said that if you want to summon me before you, the
Act is very clear. You talk to me if I do not co-operate you just invoke the law. Now to what
extent do you allow people on civic education. I use the curriculum but what happens if
somebody goes out of that curriculum? The Act is very silent.
Com. Abida Ali: We have a code of conduct.
District Commissioner: May be I did not know
Com. Abida Ali: When we distribute to you our curriculum it has our code of conduct and the
Commission is going to be very strict on that. Any provider who does not comply by the way
they are going to sign contracts with us. The Commission will take whatever step necessary to
ensure that they comply, if they do not comply then I am sure there is a penalty that is going will
be applied.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: The penalty is on clause 16 of the code of conduct is also called the
penalty clause including taking sanctions against the provider who goes and does activism,
advocatism, propaganda we have specific clause in the code of conduct for that.
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The other issue which Abida was saying is that we are also having TV programmes now on
specific issues of the Constitution. Then starting I think this Sunday we shall have a whole
supplement in the Nation and Standard which indicates issues for debate over the Constitution.
So everybody reading the paper on Sunday can start generating ideas about specific issues which
will be addressed in the Constitution. So we are working towards making Kenya aware of the
issues. Thank you Mr. DC.
Anybody else? We are focusing on areas of collaborations. How can we collaborate with the
administration to ensure that the functions of the commissions are working. I think I did here
DC Adan if my notes were correct saying that when we set up these committees in the
Constituencies, just like, I think this is Sigei, the Aids Committees for example we must also
include did I hear you saying, Bwana DC
Bwana DC: (Inaudible)
Com. Isaac Lenaola: So you were saying therefore we should include the administration in the
committees. Is it?
Bwana DC: What I was saying (inaudible)
Com Isaac Lenaola: Exactly, then you should say participating in the committees
Bwana DC: If I may ask, who will recruit these committees?
Com. Isaac Lenaola: The committees? The committee will be chosen under the guidelines
which we have provided. District Co-ordinators will convene a meeting or ought to convene a
meeting where that list can be debated in collaboration with the Members of the Parliament.
Bwana DC: You see (inaudible) some of the politicians chose the closest friends. And the thing
is now stuck. It does not work.
Com. Abida Ali: We have mandated our co-ordinators to do the same and I think tomorrow that
is what the co-ordinators are going to be compiling the notes with the co-ordinators are going to
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be compiled. I think if we feel that, not that we are suspecting that they will be bringing their
friends and all that, I think the list should also be subjected to wider scrutiny may be the
Provincial Administration and also bringing in some other leaders to look at. What we had
though is that we get the local MP to sit with the District Co-ordinator and look at the names
being submitted by the District Co-ordinators.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: Let me just comment on that, I think if one of the things that this
commission including co-ordinators must do, you are meant to be impartial so that you cannot so
that if the MP comes with his list of names you ought to know that because you are on the
ground and you vet the list to ensure that it is inclusive. One of the conditions for that committee
is that you must be inclusive have gender issues, have youth, have disabled, have elderly, have
women, in all those issues. You are supposed to have a close the board parity. Yes Mr. Sigei
Mr. Sigei: I have gone through part of that selection with the MP and it is not an easy exercise
because the various sections of the community want representation. We say the positions are
limited but this is something that the Co-ordinator must work carefully with the Member of
Parliament.
One consideration is that of course there is gender, and various interests like disabled person and
so forth but the positions are limited you can't have everybody included. So you draw on your
best experienced people in the Constituency, people who are willing to do the job to leave his
work or her work to come and work with the district co-ordinator. We have to have also
individuals and this something we have to discuss with the MP. People educated enough to be
able to read various types of Constitutions and documents and interpret to the people in the
villages and wherever. So that is where we agree lets have one and in most cases you will have a
consensus with the Member of Parliament. There should be no disagreement. Once you set
those guidelines, educated people, people with experience in public affairs, people who will
make contributions and willing to work who have the time and so forth. This is voluntary it is
not a monetary game kind of activity. You find that you get somewhere together. Otherwise if
you do not watch those there temptations to replicate the Aids Committee Members. (laughter)
There is temptation to bring the Road Board Members who are clear elements of the MPs
survival.
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Com. Isaac Lenaola: I think Mr. Sigei has made the points that we should aware not to
replicate these many committees. (inaudible)
Response: Thank you Mr. Chairman, I think like Mr Sigei has said, I think Kenyans Know what
they want and at the end of the day the village will not matter. The whole thing will end up at
National. What is wanted by Kenyans is what we want to replicate all the way. Even if the MP
brings his clones at the end of the end I think the will end up almost saying the same thing. What
Samburu will say must be compared with what Elgeyo must say at the end of the day but I think
these people are all busy that they set committees, Aids Committee the Role Committee.
(inaudible)
Mr. Keiyo: Bwana Chairman I think the success of this process will depend on the success of
how you are going to conduct the civic education. And there is a lot suspicion right now. I
remember Mr Banu came to Nandi that was during the Jamhuri day, and we had to introduce
him to the people some people became suspicious of him. How was he selected in the first place,
baba yake ni nani, anatoka wapi nani nani alimleta. At that particular time, we had to tell them
there was an advertisement, he applied so if you didn’t apply, it was your own business. And
then some people thought and they think that this process of education as the DC said is just to
remove a certain person from the office. And unless we tell people clearly what it means we are
not going to succeed. We might talk of these areas of collaboration here but without first killing
those suspicion, we are going to do nothing. Within one year we are talking and some of them
are already set this civic education is geared towards the next years election that is what they
know. And unless we kill that we are not going to go ahead and we are going to fall. Thank
you.
Interjection: (inaudible)
District Officer: Mr Keiyo from Elgeyo Marakwet. In this remark you said is difficult. And I
want to believe is difficult. You know views of our Kenyans are different. Some districts are
different, come councils are different I mean these are bullies and these fellows called coordinators in the districts may face a lot of problems. Kenyans are very good by the way. You
will have very smooth process but others you will face a lot of problems and my co-ordinators
know that he has a lot to do somewhere. So we need to be very impartial and I thought there
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should be some kind of panel to discuss about these selections and say now we have discussed
about these, civic educators and even the Constituency Review Committee. So that they can be
able to say now this one I think we ought to know, we do not know, some kind of balances.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: We have just finalised the list of civic education providers and what we
were supposed to have done at this particular meeting was give the list of the short listed
organisations to the co-ordinators there the people on the ground. I for example I am from
Samburu but I cannot speak confidently about organisations in Samburu but they can do that
because they are on the ground. So that they can come and tell us this one, is a propagandist, this
one is only campaigning for DP fellow. So we have to be clear that the providers are impartial on
the ground and the best person to do that are the co-ordinators.
Regarding the problems of say employment and so on. That we cannot help because if for
example in Kajiado now, we had interviewed a long group of fellows in Kajiado and certainly
when we chose the co-ordinator for Kajiado we just got a letter last week saying that the man is a
Tanzanian and therefore they do not want him in Kajiado. They are all Maasai’s as far as I am
concerned so and the man has a Kenyan kipande. So that suspicion on the ground is there but I
think we just need to keep quiet of and become impartial and just work impartially in the
constituency otherwise I think that point is very strong Bwana DO. Yes Ketuko
Ketuko: Mr Chairman I just wanted to say that actually
Com Isaac Lenaola: Order Order (laughter)
Ketuko: I am pure Turkana. This my point. Actually one area of collaboration is that one of
building the trust. Like now in Turkana for example our DC introduced me in the baraza and he
has been telling people that his office is independent and you need to trust him. He is your son
he is going to do a good job. So I believe the DCs can really help us in building that trust. So
thats an area of collaboration.
Response: I just want to build on what he has said and coming on number two there to number
four, it would be good for the DCs to work with us for us to know their programmes for visits to
the barazas so that we can benefit in their transport to that baraza and benefit in mobilisation and
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also that building of trust when the DCs introduces the Co-ordinator in a baraza, he has helped
him to reach there, there is an audience, and he introduce me and the just the way Mr. Gatuka has
said, this is one very strong area of collaboration.
Interjection: (inaudible)
I want to add also that one way of building that trust is that for as many people in the leadership
position as possible in the District are brought into a kind of a seminar like the councillors for
example, if they are brought in a workshop and also the chiefs. But the Provincial admistriation
the way Mr. Adanya had given us, if you want to have a meeting in Chepkorio for example he
calls his DO, the DO will call the Chiefs, the Chiefs will also call the Assistant Chiefs but if we
can get all these people in a seminar so that we can all speak the same language. Then when we
are all there in the field, we are working as a team.
Interjection: (inaudible)
One day leader’s workshop and then we can get the Commissioners going out to give public
lectures to the public. Like the one we have planned Eldoret here for Saturday. The people can
also listen to what you are saying although not everybody will come but a wide consensus of
people will listen to what you as the commissioners are saying so that tomorrow when we are
talking, they will say yes we heard that from the commissioners.
District Commissioner: I do not my co-ordinator moving with me in my landlover but you will
agree with me that other persons in the country there will be a lot of suspicions. People will say
now this man he is parallel with KANU and he is with the DC and therefore what he is going to
do is to follow what the DC will be telling him. That alone will have solved the problem in the
process. So my appeal is that very urgently please provide these people with transport so that if
they just go to a baraza, we just go in a convoy. The co-ordinator will now start his speech. I
am talking because of things I have seen in other parts.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: That does make a lot of sense. (inaudible) laughter. That issue is being
addressed very seriously because we understand for example like North Rift because of transport
for co-ordinators is a very crucial issue. It may not be necessary for a guy in Murang’a to have
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transport or Kiambu but in this man is supposed to cover a district bigger than the Central
Province and Eastern. He needs to move.
Interjection: It will be difficult for a District Co-ordinator in Central Province to go with the
District Commissioner. Here they can do it and not there.
Interjection: My feeling is that we should nor do it anywhere. (laughter)
Com. Isaac Lenaola: Any other issue. I think there was another issue that was raised about, I
missed, what was the ninth issue? Because then with the administration assisting organising
those lectures there is much more in terms of mobilisation again. So that ties with mobilsation.
Interjection: Have we learn out of areas of co-operation?
Response: Since we have the members of press here, you should also include areas of cooperation with them. We have them reporting all the time whatever activities are going on about
the Constitution Review. It will help when read more about it.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: We have a whole section with the press and I think we should not mix or
ruin the issues with them.
Interjection: But we also need like, may be in Nairobi you have heard (inaudible) we need to
have one workshop.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: I think because this is specific on administration, we can note that point
and lets stick to this. Have I presumed that for the first time Kenyans have kept within their time
in the programme. (laughter)
Interjection: Mr. Chairman, I notice that point four is about transport and that was said earlier
by somebody in the Provincial Administration. Some body else has just said that it will be
difficult.
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Interjection: You see provision of transport is not giving somebody a lift it may be just be
kuasima gari for a meeting.
Response: Thats point have come out clearly. Thank you.
Com. Isaac Lenaola; So the word provision is on the wider context. I should not tie you longer
than it is necessary. We think we are through. Let me take the liberty in my very session in
power (laughter) Yes Mr. Alimi
Mr. Alimi: The public lectures and workshops I think before this meeting we as the coordinators we were told that the Commissioners were coming to the districts to provide those
public lectures. Can we comment? Is it possible? Is it part of the programme?
Interjection: What about the issue of the finances for the co-ordinators.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: It is being addressed and like Alice said the secretary just came in three
weeks ago. He is the accounting officer and a lot of things got stuck because of the secretary but
now starting this meeting, I can assure you that they will be in very safe hands as long as our
good Government some funds, we shall still continue giving our good co-ordinators the same
thing. (laughter)
Com. Abida Ali: I was also going to request you. We are really trying to get funds so that we
can be able to go round to the districts if possible even to the constituencies but some of us are
thinking even these funds are not forthcoming we may be able or we might be forced to go out
on our own and visit the districts and talk to the people. What we are asking for is kindly assist
us there mobilising the people for purposes of these lectures by the Commissioners. Thank you.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: I think that is a strong point. What we have seen for example from the
Commissioners from the Rift Valley we understand our issues are much deeper and more
serious. We believe so. So we have taken upon ourselves even we do not get some assistance
from the Commissioner to come on our own without any help from the Commissioner. We just
co-ordinate our co-ordinators come and give the lectures, come and address so that we are also
seen to be on the ground.
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Let me thank you all for coming and say how grateful we are. I think it was a very interesting
session and It think if we continue like this we will be able definitely to move. Since this is an
administrators workshop, let me ask Bwana DC Adanyi to say the last word and then we can
wide up.
Mr. Adanyi (DC): Thank you very much the Chairman of the session, ladies and gentlemen.
Once again I wish to urge each one of you as Kenyans I am seeing we are very positive about
the Constitutional Review because it touches all of us directly not directly and the participants
here, Commissioners you have seen how educated the are so the wananchi themselves. Let me
assure you the team here in the North Rift is not going to let you down. We will work very hard
and to see to you that Kenyans in this part of the country participate fully.
Let me also assure you that the mobilisation by the Provincial Administration will be provided
for and I wish Commissioner Yano to invite you perhaps next week together with my brother
Kiken, we can start from Keiyo (Laughter)
I know somebody like our two Members of
Parliament are very keen of this. We do not people to look at it that it is the beginning of
campaign. We want to look at the Constitution and see look at our forests, what we can say
about it. The pan paper is so much. Are we benefiting? What is the local, the people who
planted these trees are they benefiting in any way?
I would say about from the tax the
Government is loyal and which is paid to Nairobi, I think the mwananchi is not seeing that. A
lot of things are going to come up. The issue of the county council is crucial in this country
which must be well looked into. That chapter 265 has to be looked at very closely so that there
are no wrangles between unakuta chairman wa county council anataka kuwa clerk, clerk naye
anataka kuwa chairman. We asking ourselves, what has gone wrong and these are Kenyans and
these are Kenyans, why are they creating these wrangles? This Review is very vital to all of us
which we might look at it critically. That trust is very important because if Mheshimiwa would
look at the chief as his enemy or to see DO or his DC as his opponent I think we have a problem
because all the DC does is to assist those citizens to develop themselves.
In fact I am in another seminar on poverty eradication and I was telling them in this country we
have a lot of resources but I think we have not exploited those resources. First of all we have
adequate poverty. Because what we want learnt from some parts of this country because we
have people from Central province, Nairobi, Rift Valley, Nyanza personally I have learnt a lot
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from this seminar. Because you find and it is a kitchen project to survey in some places this cost
two hundred thousand and in some parts like when I took them all that it has cost is just to pay
one for the officials. Then we ask ourselves what is happening in the 2000 project so that trust
amongst Kenyans must be there. We will belong here, we will die here. So it is crucial that we
talk openly. Respect me I respect you. Let us keep our differences together this time. I do not
want to appear as though I am lecturing to you but I just wanted to assure the Commissioners
that I think in the North Rift I think we will produce the best results. I think with those few
remarks can I therefore now declare this section officially closed and karibu sana.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: Thank you very much we could not provide lunch but Peter Apamo here
will organise something for lunch. The co-ordinators we would be very happy if you could join
us for the lecture at Moi University this afternoon and thereafter we suggest that we have our
short in-house meeting after the lecture. At 4.30. Sorry I am instructed that there is lunch here
but still he ought to be seen. We shall allow the non co-ordinators to go for lunch while we
remain with the co-ordinators for a short session. Thank you very much.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
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CONSTITUTING OF CONSTITUTIONAL CONSTITUENCY COMMITTEES
MOI UNIVERSITY, 23RD NOVEMBER 2001
We had all the night for them to give a public lecture at Moi University. We discussed
with them yesterday... sorry. Last week I believe Professor Korir was coordinating and so
mine is simply to welcome all of you to Moi University. We are pleased that you were
able to come share your ideas about the review process with staff as well as students will
be able to make the contributions as necessary.
Question: Another question I want to ask is, you have said that in the Constitution review
you will ensure that the government will be accountable. I understand it is the
government which has the power to regulate the activities in the country but it is a pity as
we stand here now that the government cannot be able to regulate for example, the prices
of the commodities in the country. We understand that Kenya is an agricultural country.
(Hustling) you heard the Constitution (hustling).
Interjection: Continue
Interjection: (commotion)
Male Speaker: (not clear). There have been a few things which involve the other
question. Regarding minority, I think my friend here asked about minority, and if you
recall when I spoke here earlier I said that the process must ensure that diversity of
Kenyans is accommodated within the process. That takes into account race, ethnicity,
gender, faith, age, occupation, learning and so on. So minority will form within the
persons who whose interests must be taken care of. For example, you may not know this,
but I came to the commission as a (not clear) person, so that (not clear) of our population.
Regarding national conference (murmurs and hustles). I think we should we are fishing
so just give me that one minute then we can closes the national conference. Who
determines who can be a member of the national conference? Under the act the
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commission is mandated to consult widely before choosing who will attend national
conference. So that will mandate the commission under the law and we cannot change it
ourselves.
The referendum: How do we ensure this referendum is (not clear) as our electoral
system? What I know myself is that a referendum is an extremely difficult thing to
undertake but unlike the election which will be done by electoral commission, the
referendum will be done by electoral commission, the referendum will be done by this
commission. If you failed in this commission, then you have failed in the process of the
referendum. Please get that. That is the best I can say about the referendum.
Regarding principles: I think I have no doubt that the same principles set out by the act
are even more binding on the commission than the other Kenyans. We are the drivers of
this vehicle. We have the drivers of this vehicle. We have to be more careful than our
passengers and that is the way I look at it. So no doubt about it. The principles must first
apply to us and then you can say hoe, “look I’m clean, act like I don”, and I think it will
agree with you totally.
What about the question of the incumbent manipulating the process? My own
understanding of the process such the commission ought to be independent, the
commission ought not to be manipulated, the commission ought not to be manipulated,
the commission ought not to be influenced by any person or any organization or any
individual. And therefore we believe ourselves that neither incumbent nor N.D.P. or
KANU or DP or Mungiki can influence this commission in the work it’s going to do. and
we believe that we are the best watchdogs of this commission than any body else. thank
you very much. (clapping).
Male Speaker: I think in the interest of time, this was a very, very useful encounter. I
believe it was as useful to the Moi University Community as it was to the commissioners.
I hope that you, like me, are seeing the commissioners in a different light. This is a very,
very important process that we should participate in fully without fear, without favour
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and therefore I would now like to take this opportunity to also recognize the assurances
that the commissioner have given us, at least the commissioners who are here, that you
will be involved fully in the process as university students and I think that is extremely
important. There are assurances that they will be fair, they will not be influenced and so
on. And they have really sworn to ensure that they are not influential. With those few
words and I saw the final assurance is that come January then they will come back. I
think there was some doubt that was expressed somewhere...
Background: Yes.
Male Speaker: ... and I think we have to lean as Kenyans to also have faith and trust in
each other. They have assured us and to me I have no doubt that they will come. With
those few words can we please and I am now inviting them formally, that our graduation
is December 6, so you can come. (laughter) with those few words, as we normally do, can
we just thank them so that they can come again. (clippings).
Com. Alice: .. Time you have given us and especially also introducing us to your council
members. We are also happy that you could give us this time to come and share with you
issues to do with the constitution. We all know very well that the constitution is a very,
very important document for this country as much as the professor has just said. Our
main purpose is to share with you what we think are the guidelines to coming up with a
proper constitution for this country so as is to stimulate public discussions on the
constitution and constitutional review process. Maybe, I shouldn’t take time. One thing I
know about commissioners and these are real lawyer commissioners, they always like
talking so much. But what I will do is for purposes of talking maybe everybody could
introduce himself or herself. My name is Alice Yano , I am the commissioner
representing Rift Valley.
Com. Lenaula: My name is Isaac Lenaula, I am also a commissioner, I am from this
province.
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Com. Abida: I am Abida Ali Aaron, Vice Chair of the commission, one of the vicechairpersons.
Com. Borr: I am Gilbert arap Borr, I am the District Coordinator for Uasin Gishu.
Interjection: (Not clear).
Mr. Lagat: My name is Robert Katina, I am the District Coordinator for West Pokot
Mr. Solomon: My name is Solomon Cheserem, District Coordinator Marakwet.
Mr. Emmanuel: My name is Emmanuel Satia, District Coordinator from Nzoia.
Mr. Geoffrey: Kaituko Korr Geoffrey, (not clear) District Coordinator Turkana.
Peter Kamo: Peter Kamo, Programme Officer of the Constitution of Kenya Review
Commission.
: Thank you very much. I think the rest now is Professor Karim. amekimbia? (laughter),.
Because I think then what we need to do if (not clear) is acceptable then we lead you the
venue.
Interjection: (Not clear).
: I presume you will... then we will just hand you over (laughter). We will just provide the
venue and then you do the rest.
Interjection: Thankyou.
Manavo: I think Karim may have asked staff and students if they have any contributions
to make, any written memorandums to do it. Ireri did you want to say something before
we take up? Your students are ready?
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Ireri: Yeah, our students are ready and the arrangements are intact (laughter). they were
just...
Prof. Munavo: Okay, thank you very much. Okay... Kenyans who re here with us today
and they are (not clear), the district coordinators for the Constitutional Review process
representing this region, students of Moi University and staff. Today’s meeting is ready
for the commissioners, commissioners to share with us what thy believe is the appropriate
guidelines that they have been developing with record to constitution making. And
therefore I will request the commissioners to introduce themselves and to introduce their
district coordinators and then I will hand over the meeting to them. I believe once they
give the guidelines there will be the opportunity for you to share your views and ideas
about the constitution that we all Kenyans want. We live in a historically defining
moments in Kenya because constitution making is an extremely important process and
therefore the contribution of all of us, whatever shade of opinion that you have, I think
sharing it with the commissioners is extremely important. So that we will not say that I
was never given the chance. I want to thank the commissioners for choosing Moi
University as the first university for them to visit to get opinions. Am I right? (Clippings).
More so, they have indicated to me, that it will be possible for them to come again later
maybe January. Once they give out the guidelines then maybe we will be debating and
consulting and so on and when we want them back then we can still request them back
and we can again interact and debate with them. This is an on-going process, it is an
important process. It is a process which will define the direction which Kenya will take as
a country and Kenyans, as a people from many, many years to come. With those few
words, I would now like to request Com. Isaac Lenaula to introduce the other
commissioners and then the district coordinators and then we take off. Welcome them
please. (Clippings).
Com Lenaola: Thank you very much Professor Munaro by putting it very, very simple.
We introduce my colleagues the commission and also our coordinators from the districts.
First of all the lady in a buibui is the Vice Chairperson Mrs. Abida Ali Aroni. (Clapping).
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Another elegant lady you se I am is the company of very man elegant ladies that is Mrs.
Alice Yano. (clippings, laughter and whistles). My names are Isaac Lenaula. Let me now
introduce the coordinators from the district.
On the far right is Mr. Kaituko from Turkana. (clapping). That is Elijah Letangule from
Baringo. (Clippings). This is Mr. Borr Gilbert from Uasin Gishu. (clippings). This is Mr.
Robert Katina from West Pokot. (clapping). This is Mr. Emmanuel Satia from Nzoia.
(clippings). And that is Mr. Solomon Cheserem from Marakwet. (Clapping). That is my
(not clear), thank you very much. Now, I know we have a problem with volume, but we
shall try and be as loud as can be possible within the confines of this very large hall. I
will now invite the commissioner Abida ali to take us through the first phase of the
discussion and then Mrs. Nziano and then I will give the last word before Mrs. Abida Ali
again comes to wrap up before any have the floor and fire all the hard questions you need
to cover. Thankyou very much.
Com. Abida: Good afternoon. (not clear)
Audience: Good afternoon (not clear, commotion).
Com. Isaac: Tell her to try to stand. Maybe (not clear).
audience: (Applause).
Com. Abida: You students! I have a problem of my voice so I hope you will be able to
bear with me and if you pay attention.
Audience: Sawa.
Com. Abida: .... and were quit there....
Interjection: (not clear).
Page 49 of 182
Com. Abida: .. as we await for the address system I am sure you will be able to capture
what I am about to say. Otherwise my voice is normally very loud. This afternoon I
would like to share with you the constitutional review process, it’s organs and functions.
On my part I will be talking to you about the process briefly and my colleague Mrs. Yano
will talk to you about the several organs of review and my colleague Lenaula will speak
to you about the functions of the different organs of review. As you are all aware the
review process is already on going, we have different stages of the review process. We
are touring different provinces at the moment and meting your colleagues in different
institutions of higher learning. As we are talking to you now we believe that there are
other 9 or is it 8 panels all over the country talking to university students because it is the
belief of the commission that the brains are in the universities and we know that if you
support the process, you will be able to share with your brothers and sisters, you will be
able to disseminate the information in the different parts of this country that you come
from. So we are here to request that we form some sort of network so that you can be able
to spread the gospel of the review process as you go home for the Christmas holidays. If
you have any written memorandum we will be glad to carry that with us but we would
wish to come back formally to collect your views because shortly we will start the
process of civic education. We know that you may not need a lot of civic education but
we shall use, I believe the faculty of law, to disseminate our curriculum and the issues
that we will wish to hear your view from. In a weeks time we will also publish and
distribute with the Standard Newspaper and the Nation Newspapers issues or
questionnaires that you may wish to look at to be able to formulate your views of
presentation to the commission later, hopefully in January.
Now, I know that all of you read, listen to radio, watch T.V. so you may have an idea of
the history of the review process in this country. There has been agitation for change for
more than 10 years but the process of review heightened in 1997 when the government
decided to enact an act of parliament to enable the review process to take place and an act
of parliament known as the review act chapter 3 (a) of the laws of Kenya was enacted in
1997. and immediately after the law come into being, there was a lot of what I would call
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even cry from the opposition and from members of the civil society mainly comprising of
religious leaders, non-governmental organizations, professional bodies like the Law
Society and soon complaining that they were not involved or consulted when this act, was
passed into law. And they felt that the constitution is not just an ordinary law but can
quietly be enacted by members of parliament without involving the rest of us. The
government gave into that request and in 1998, through the office of the Attorney General
the government invited different people to make presentations and over a 100 groups
made representations in Bomas of Kenya after which a number of groups were selected
and termed stakeholders for purposes of the review process. And I think we had about 52
groups or between 52 and 60 groups that were there after involved in a series of
consultations to enable the government amend the act they had come up with in 1997. We
had about 4 series of meetings in Safari Park in Nairobi where consultations were held,
lengthy consultations after which the act was commended, an act that now included the
wishes and hopes of those who were consulted at Safari Park. And we had the review act
as amended in 1998.
In that act it was agreed upon that all stakeholders would collectively come up with 25
names of commissioners who would then undertake the task of collection of views.
Collecting them and drafting a report to enable parliament enact a constitution for this
country. Now, the civil society had 12 slots out of the 25, the parliamentarians had 13.
But when they reached parliament, or wherever they met they were unable to accept this
slots that were given to them. There was in fight and we had a stalemate. The stalemate
resulted into 2 processes. Parliament decided to form the parliamentary select committee
that was to oversee appointment of commissioners and generally the review process. And
mainly the groups that were featuring very prominently was KANU, NDP and a number
of stakeholders that went with them. about 40 something plus, I think about 42 - 50
stakeholders formed a parallel process that was popularly known as the Ufungamano
Initiative. They had decided the parliament had no role absolutely to appoint
commissioners or even to undertake the review process and they commissioned 20
commissioners who were to undertake the review process.
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Now, the parliamentary select committee invited applications and they were able to come
up with 15 names of very able and capable Kenyans who were sworn in to take up the
task of the review process. After swearing in or before swearing in Professor Yash Pal
Ghai was appointed to head that 15 member committee. Once the 14 commissioners took
oath, Prof. Ghai decided that together with the commissioners who had taken oath that
the country didn’t need, parallel processes for a variety of reasons. Notably, that
parliament needed 2/3 majority to pass any bill that would become the constitution of this
country. Parliament was divided. We had a group with the select committee and a group
with Ufungamano. So it was going to be very difficult to attain the 2/3 majority.
Secondly, they also felt that this country needed to have one commission that would have
the support and credibility that this country deserves in the review process. And at that
point they approached the Ufungamano Institutive to see whether the 2 commissions
would merge. On the other hand the commissioners in Ugungamano had already started
collection of views but had in mine that even if they came up with a draft constitution,
that they did not have the force of law that it takes to make a constitution. They also
needed to have the document tabled. Ordinarily a document like that would be table d
through a member of parliament. An important document like the constitution would
have to be tabled by the Attorney General who was definitely not with ufungamano.
So at that point it took about 6 months for negotiations which bore fruit and the 2
commissions merged and we now have one commission comprising of 25 people, 2 of
them are ex-officio members, that is the secretary of the commission and the Honourable
the Attorney General. Otherwise the ordinary commissioners are 25. Now the
commissioners represent different interests within the commission they came from all the
parts of this country and with diverse backgrounds that was felt is necessary for us to be
able to do the hard task ahead of us.
Now having given you that background, the other thing that I wish to share with you are
the objects and purpose of the review ahead of us. Now the first one is guaranteeing
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peace and national unity and integrity of the Republic of Kenya in order to safeguard the
well-being of the people e of Kenya.
(2) Establishing a free and democratic system of government .. (murmurs). What’s
happened? (murmurs and claps).
Interjection: Mr. Chairman and the Secretary General (laughter, hustling).
Com. Abida: Thanks for joining us. You appear to be very popular, we are happy to be
with you. (laughter). I was going through the second object of the review process and this
is for purposes of establishing a free and democratic system of government that enshrines
good governance, constitutionalism and respects the rule of law and human rights. We all
know that currently not all of us are comfortable with the issues of law, human rights and
so on and so forth. And it is also a fact that in this country we do not have a constitutional
culture. When I say this I mean that we always complain to the rule of law when we are
referring to the government forgetting that as citizens we also have obligations other than
just rights. So we are hoping that after this process as Kenyans we will respect the rule of
law, demand our rights from the state and be able also to carry out our obligations as
citizens. Our example is payment of tax. Most Kenyans expect the state to provide
services but we are not ready to pay tax. So that’s one of the examples (Commotion).
Com. Isaac: Instant reaction.
Com. Abida: And… (commotion, Hustles).
Com Isaac: Let us give them sometime to complete.
Com. Abida: And when we talk about constitutional culture we also want to create a
situation where we respect views from different quarters. You may not agree with my
view, that’s my example, you may have good reasons but if we had a culture of tolerance
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then you would tolerate my view. So those are things that we hope to do (laughter and
applause).
The other thing that we need to look at is the different organs of state. At the moment we
have the judiciary, the legislature and the executive, We want to look at how we can
democrat responsibility so that one arm of the government does not interfere with the
other one. I believe theoretically we have but we need to probably look at the systems and
see how we can improve. We also need to see whether we need to have other organs of
the state and this is for you when we come back to tell us whether there is any other organ
of state that we need to add to the 3.
We also have to promote people’s participation in the governance of the county through
free and fair elections and devolution and exercise of power. So we will be looking at
devolution of power within the systems of government. We will also be considering the
issue of the electoral system in this country. We all know that we always cry but elections
in this country are not free and fair. So this is an opportunity for us to have an input to
enable us have free and fair elections.
The other one is respect of ethnic and regional diversity, recognizing that we all come
from different religious backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds, different professions and so on
and so forth. I will respect that and see how we can live in peace and harmony.
We will also look at the issue of basic needs for all Kenyans and re-distribution of natural
resources of this country, promoting and facilitating regional and international
cooperation, strengthening national integration and unity, creating conditions conducive
to free exchange of ideas, ensuring full participation of people in the management of
public affairs and also enabling us to resolve issues on the basis of consensus and not by
demonstration (laughter). Is there anything else I need to say, the powers of the
commission? Civic education?
Com. Isaac: Yes.
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Com. Abida: Now, another aspect that I would wish to touch on is on civic education.
That in different stages that you hear from my colleagues, one of the stages that we are at
the moment is civic education. We intend to carry out civic education at different levels
and we are bout to start the first phase of civic education in a few days. We have prepared
a curriculum where we have raised issues for discussion by all of us so that we identify
and understand the current constitution. A lot of Kenyans are telling us they do not
understand the current constitution. We believe that a lot of you have an idea of the
constitution, if not maybe you can ask the questions when you have an opportunity. But
the current constitution is a very, difficult peace of legislation. Lawyers who practice will
tell you that they must read over and again to be able to understand it. So we want all of
us to understand that constitution, look at the other constitutions of the world and be able
to see what is best for this country. So we will be coming back soon but we will leave
copies of the curriculum in your library so that you can look at it and be able to prepare
yourselves, since we believe we don’t have to do a lot of civic education here. We also
wish to let you know that our hearings hopefully starting in January are going to be
public hearings and we will hopefully come to the university and give you an opportunity
to give us your views. You can write your memorandum if you feel you do not wish to
publicly give your views and if one has a very good reason the commission will, at it’s
own discretion decide whether they can hear that person privately. We want to give
everyone an opportunity to be able to speak.
The other issue that probably you would want to engage yourself in now or later is the
issue of time frame. The commission has to complete its work before September 2002.
The period of review was two years , but between November last year when the first
commission was sworn in to June this year, we spent the time negotiating between the
parliamentary select committee and the Ufugamano initiative and never got time to
engage in the process. So we are looking at it and wondering even as commissioners
whether we can conclude the work . It is our hope that we will work day and night and be
able to give you people constitution by September 2002.There is another school of
thought that the constitution, if we are to involve each and every able and capable
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Kenyan , cannot be accomplished by the year 2002. So these are the things that we
would like to hear your views about , whether we should hurriedly prepare the document
or whether you think hearing what we have to do that the period left which I think is less
than a year that we think we can accomplish receiving of views, collecting them,
preparing a draft report, disseminating it pack to you to be sure that your views are taken
on board and enacting a constitution for this country. thankyou. I will now hand you over
to you over to Mrs. Alice Yano to continue with this presentation. Thankyou. (Applause).
Com. Alice: You must understand.... Otherwise we shall (Not clear, Laughter). I was told
that I can be able to be heard. I think my voice goes like a (Not clear, Laughter). We are
really very, very happy to be with you here today and I would want you to know that we
are not here to teach you. One thing we know about this institution is an institution of
higher learning. You’ve heard so much about it and what we are here today is to see
whether we can be also to stimulate public debate and understanding on the constitution.
As professor Munavu has rightly said “This is the first university we are visiting from the
commission. Personally I am very, very, very happy not because I have visited the
university but I have visited a university (laughter) in Rift Valley from where I was
chosen to go and represent in the constitution making review process.
Now considering the fact that it is been long since our constitution was made and I know
very well that you are aware that the constitution we have is more than 38 years old.
What we should be looking into is the constitution we got that is at independence the
1963 constitution, and what it entailed and apart from what it involved also how it was
made. We know very well that that was a negotiated instrument. It was not a people
driven constitution. We are also very happy to inform you that this is the first time
Kenyans as a people are trying to come up with your own constitution and that is why we
are going round visiting institutions of higher learning and also we are mandated by the
act to visit the constituencies in the whole country and collect views from the people.
How do we come up with a people driven constitution? how do we ensure that the same
constitution is from the people and not from a few individuals or even not from the
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commissioners themselves? By the way I want you to know that ours as commissioners is
to go round, collect views and collate them. We are not supposed to come up with a
constitution after visiting all the constituencies and collecting views from members of the
public. To arrive at this we have organs or institutions of the review process.
These organs are 6 in number and these organs were created to ensure the independence
of the people as they make their own constitution. One of the organs, is the commission
itself. The second we have what we call the constituency constitutional forum. The third
we have the national constitutional conference, we have also the referendum. We have
the national assembly, which is the last organ of constitutional review making, we also
have documentation centres.
Yes in the commission that is the first organ, it is very, very independent. I think you
have heard Abida Ali explain to you how Kenyans arrived at the current commission. The
commissioners have taken an oath of office effectively saying that they are independent
and that they are going to do according to the wishes of Kenyans . We also have a very
strong secretariat as at now. It is based in Nairobi, but that does not mean that common
mwananchi, as you popularly like calling the periphery areas, does not mean that they
will not be able to get to know what is happening in the constitution. also we have district
coordinators, we have just been introduced to the district coordinators. They are also
going to help the commission to come up with the constitution.
Secondly, we are mandated by the act to come up with a constituency constitutional form.
What is the constituency constitutional forum? The constituency constitutional forum is a
lobby or is meant to mobilize people to participate fully in constitutional debate also in
civic education awareness also when it comes to the collection of the views and the
collation of the same views. it is the lowest organ of the constitution. it’s meant to be in
the constituencies. Being the lowest organ it’s expected that it will be used to coordinate
people for civic education activities, dissemination of commission document and public
healings and receipt of the views of the people. Either orally or by written memoranda. It
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can also be used for purposes of debate and discussions among the people about
constitutional issues.
Thirdly, we have the national constitutional Conference. it is also a creature of the act and
it is supposed to ensure that we come up with a very independent people driven
constitution. What does it mean? It means that after the commissioners have gone round
collecting views from mwananchi and after coming up with a draft for purposes of
consideration by mwananchi, instead of the commission going back the way now we are
going round to the people, the people themselves get their representatives from their
regions so that the same people can go and further debate on the issues that were raised
by people for the purposes of constitutional making. It includes all the commissioners as
ex-officio members in that national constitutional conference. The commissioners are not
even supposed to role, we have to take a very neutral stand just like in all he other organs.
Secondly, It also includes 3 representatives from each district at least one of whom shall
be a woman and only one of whom maybe a councilor. It also includes one representative
from each political party registered at the commencement of this act but not being a
member of parliament or a councilor. The functions and duties of this conference shall be
to debate, discuss and adopt with or without commandments the report and draft bill
prepared by the commission. After this debate in the national constitutional conference if
there is an agreement on the issues that were raised by the people and if there’s an
agreement in the national constitutional conference what happens is the bill can now be
taken to parliament for purposes of being adopted as the constitution of this country. But
what happens if the bill does not go through in the national constitutional conference?
What will happen is that the same will be subject to a referendum. A referendum is an
optional organ of the review process. If Kenyans agree on the constitution then, that is in
national constitutional conference, then there is no need of the referendum. In the
referendum the bill will be subjected, or those parts of the bill that have not been agreed
upon will be subjected to the electoral laws. In fact, that is the time now we may need the
assistance of the electoral commission so that people will vote on the issues and after
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that, after voting on the issues then the same bill can now be taken to the national
assembly.
The National Assembly is the final stage of bringing about a new or reviewed
constitution. It is also provided for by the act cap. 3, if the national constitutional
conference secures consensus on all issues there will be no need of a referendum. Instead
the commission will be required to prepare a final report together with a draft bill to alter
the constitution which it shall submit to the attorney general.
The attorney general shall in turn be required to publish the bill and present the same to
the national assembly for enactment into a new constitution. And that is where we need
members of parliament more than ever before.
So those are the major organs provided for by the act. We also have a very, very
important organ of the constitutional review process that is the documentation centres…
Com. Alice: … in each and every district so that the people can be able to access
materials to do with the constitutional review. They can also access materials to do with
civil education, they can also access materials from the secretariat. People do not have to
go to the secretariat to see or to read the materials that are helpful in terms of coming up
with the constitution. And these documentation centres shall be manned by our district
coordinators. I think you have seen some of them here, and this is the lowest level at
which the commission must establish the centres, that is the district. Though when we
went round the provinces sometimes back in July, people insisted that they even wanted
these documentations centres to be taken much more nearer to the people that it was into
only enough to put it in the district. And I think that is something the commission are
trying to look into.
Now having looked at the organs of the review or the institutions of the review, how do
we arrive at decisions? How do we make decisions? Like the commission, supposing
there is an administrative issue to be looked into, how do we make decisions? In the
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commission decisions administratively are made by a simple majority but when it comes
to greater issues like the removal of a commissioner what happens is we must have at
least a 2/3 majority. Why is this so? It is to safeguard the integrity and the independence
of the commission so that in case there are any problems between some
2
commissioners, somebody cannot just walk in and get a simple majority and get rid of a
commissioner.
Also in the national constitutional forum what will be expected while making decisions
will be a simple majority. In the constitution, sorry I forgot to say so, any decision to do
with a constitutional issue must be decided by the 2/3 majority. Thankyou very much and
welcome tot eh debate. (clapping murmurs).
Com. Aroni: Thank you very much Mrs. Yano. My task is to go through the functions of
the various organs that Mrs. Yano has talked about and let me start by discussing the
functions of the commission itself. The commission, it’s functions are set out in section
17 of the act. And the first function is to conduct and facilitate civic education.
Secondly, to collect and collate the views of Kenyans so that we shall go and collect
those views and then reduce them into a report.
Thirdly, we are supposed to carry out research on matters of constitutional nature and
then make a comparative analysis of other constitutions of the world.
We are also supposed to examine and recommend the functions of the organs of state that
is the executive, judiciary and the legislature.
We are also supposed to look at structures and systems of government including the
Federal structure, military structure, and so on. The debate today is about whether we
should have majimbo system or a unitary system. Our job as the commission is to look at
those systems and recommend an appropriate system for the people of Kenya.
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We are also supposed to recommend improvements to electoral system of Kenya. My
colleague Abida talked about the electoral process being sometimes slow. We are
supposed to recommend an improved electoral system in Kenya.
We are also supposed to look at the courts. Look at the structure of the courts and suggest
improvements to the court system.
The commission also is suppose to examine and review the place of local government
and recommend to Kenyans the best system of devolution of power from the centre to the
local authorities.
We are also supposed to examine and review the place of property and land rights.
Interjection: (Not clear).
Com. Aroni: The Njonjo Comission Rifht now (laughter) the Njonjo commission right
now is dong much a similar job but when they finish with their report on land issues they
will bring it back to the commission for appropriate recommendations on land laws.
We are also supposed to look at questions of citizenship and the rights that accrue from
being a citizen.
The commission is also out to review the rights of the child. I don’t have time to talk
about street children and we don’t know whether they have rights at all. The commission
is supposed to look at the rights of the child (hustles) and recommend mechanisms to
guarantee the rights of the child.
We are also supposed to examine and review succession to office and recommend a
suitable system for the smooth and dignified transfer of power both in the presidency and
also in parliament and other public offices.
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We are also supposed to look at treaty making. This is the realm of international law.
Look at how Kenya can bring treaties from abroad and international convention and
domesticate those treaties within Kenyan law. That is again the mandate of the
commission.
The commission also is supposed to examine and recommend issues regarding the
principles of public accountability by holders of public office. Often times for the last 10
years with hearing of abuse of public office. This commission is supposed to come with
recommendations to ensure that those issues affecting public office are also enshrined
within the constitution.
Lastly the commission also is supposed to look at any other matter which is of a
constitutional nature and which they think, which we think and which Kenyans think can
form a part of that constitution. Those generally are the functions of the commission. My
colleague Mrs. Yano has touched on the functions of the constituency forum, I will touch
on that. She has also discussed on the duty of the national conference where it is
supposed to be the forum for debate, discussion and adoption of the final report from the
commission.
Regarding the referendum: If you recall the Ugandan case last year, Ugandans were being
asked to decide whether to have multi-parties or to have a movement system. And what
they did was they went through a referendum where Ugandans were asked to vote ‘Yes’
for movement of ‘No’ for movement. If we fail to reach an agreement at the national
conference then we shall subject those issues of contention to a referendum. For example,
if Kenyans decide at the national conference that some want majimbo, others don’t want
majimbo and they cannot vote on a consensus on that issue; then we shall subject the
Majimbo issue to a referendum where Kenyans will say ‘Yes’ to majimbo or ‘No’ to
majimbo. That is the purpose of the referendum.
Interjection: Poa tu (laughter).
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Com. Abida: What has he said?
Prof. Munavu: the want to know what is the Kenyan majimbo.
Com. Isaac: As regards the national assembly, this is parliament, once the report has been
done and a final document has been tabled before parliament, parliament has the duty to
enact that new constitution. There is a question here, suppose we come up with a report
and a draft constitution which after debate national conference goes to parliament, can
parliament refuse to enact that constitution? I submit to you it cannot.
The national assembly, it’s only role as regards this document is to enact it into law. It
cannot debate it, it cannot discuss it, it cannot amend it, it cannot delete a sentence from
it. If Prof. Munavu’s terms, they will rubber stamp it. (laughter).
Then one last issue which I forgot to say is that if you look at modern constitutions in the
world, there is something called guiding principles, principles that guide the nation. If
you look at our constitution today, that constitution only says, ‘Kenya is a Republic,
Kenya shall be multi-party state’, it doesn’t say what Kenya is. It doesn’t say who are
Kenyans. So we are supposed (laughter) so we are supposed as a commission to come up
with a guiding principle that indicate to use what is unique about us Kenyans, what
makes us Kenyans, not Rwandese what makes us Kenyans not Ugandans. So we are to
point out that things that brings us and makes us Kenyans and that must come out in the
new constitution.
Now while doing this work as we have said, we are a commission, the other organs of
review and you as Kenyans must be guided by the following principles:-
(1)
We must as a commission and the other organs be accountable to the people of
Kenya. Once we finish this process. I think I would like to walk the streets of Nairobi
and no one points fingers at me and say, “you jailed us,” and so we must be
accountable to the people of Kenya.
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(2)
We must ensure that this process accommodates the diversity of Kenyans. That is
to mean a race, ethnicity, gender, religious faith, age, occupation and disability. So we
must think of that needless the fact we are a diverse society. Even as we sit in the
building we represent Kenya and we are very diverse in our various social status and
so on.
(3)
We are also supposed to ensure that every Kenyan actively, freely and
meaningfully participates in debating the proposals to alter this constitution. At the
same time we are mandated to conduct this process in a very open manner and that is
why we did not meet Professor Munavu in the office and told him “Let us hear views
from Moi University.” We said let us hear this in an open manner so that Kenyans can
have a chance to express themselves as they wish.
(4)
We must also be guided by respect for principles of human rights, gender equity
and democracy.
(5)
And finally and most importantly, the final outcome of this process must
faithfully, and mark my word; the process must faithfully reflect the wishes of the
people of Kenya. And that is why we do not seduce ourselves in a room as lawyers
and sat down to write a constitution because that won’t be your constitution. So the
final document must reflect the wishes of the people of Kenya and that includes
yourself. I thank you for listening to me. (clapping).
Pror. Munavu: How do you want to handle the questions?
Com. Alice: Let us just do it generally.
Prof. Munavu: You have heard. And this is just a beginning of the process that I think
we have gotten some assurances. I am particularly very delighted that the commissioners
are going to be listening to views and that they willnot try to put in their own views, they
will not be talking casually and so on about the constitution that we want because it is the
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Kenyans themselves that are really participating in this constitution making process. But I
have also heard that in civic education perhaps, I think, that there will be involvement of
maybe faculty of law, I heard?
Com. Abida: yes (laughter)
Prof. Muvavu: But perhaps, perhaps this is a constitution that belongs to the Kenyans,
isn’t it?
Audience: yes.
Prof. Manavu: so we have faculty of law, we have faculty of information science and we
have school of socio –cultural and economic (not clear) (Applause). So I think we are
saying … yah, all of us, (applause). I am now going to open the floor for some comments
of some questions. Today we cannot exhaust anything. I think today was introductory for
us to meet each other and to know that the commissioners are real and they exist in
person. They are here. (applause). And therefore I think let us hear some comments if
there is anybody with some written memoranda, I think that you will submit it. My
understanding is the commissioners will come back if we need them. Okay, we hope they
will.
Com. Abida: Yes, we will come back.
Prof. Munavu: My understanding is that the commissioners are setting up
documentation centres, isn’t it?
Com. Abida: yes.
Prof. Munavu: And we were hoping in the districts but also in the universities.
Universities are major (applause) Can I now, can I accept…
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Com. Alice: May be,
Prof. Munavu: Why don’t I do this, let me just sit down and let them handle it , I think
its easier. (laughter).
Com. Alice: Maybe before … excuse me, maybe before we proceed what should really
be very, very clear is that today we are not strictly collecting views. Today what we are
doing….
Audience (outburst) why?
Com. Alice: Please may I finish? (laughter). And that is why we have already promised ..
(commotion) Yes.
Prof. Manavu: If they give views it is okay.
Com. Alice: Excuse me (Applause) I am… excuse me, I will still … yes, yes, I didn’t
want to narrow (hustles), I didn’t want you to narrow it just to mean collection of views. I
want you to be as free as possible so that we can be able to discuss on wider issues.
Today we are trying to get to know each other and really ask ourselves questions.
(Outburst) But we are still coming back.
Prof. Munavu: Give us your opinion.
Com. Abida: What is your opinion?
Prof. Munavu: Please raise your hands.
Com. Alice: Raise your hands we go on. (hustles) yes, gentleman and here, yes. And
kindly give us your names because we are recording and taking your questions and your
views. (outburst) yes.
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Prof. Muvavu: Why don’t we please. We are in a university, isn’t it?
Audience: Yes.
Prof. Munavu: Please let us be frank let us be forthright and so forth. So if we have any
comments or questions don’t fear, just raise it. (outburst) please.
Com. Alice: the reason why we would want maybe to take your name (applause) Is he a
student here?
Prof. Munavu: Yah, he’s a lawyer.
Com. Alice: Yes, go on.
Prof. Munavu: Order.
Student: Before I go and say much, my (not dear) is to assure that they will never go
back to the state house (not clear) before you get the (not clear) please.
Com. Alice: Thank you. Point taken (outburst) can we take…
Prof. Munavu: (Not clear). You people are fearing (not clear)
Com. Alice: Now if we can be able to take 5 questions at a go, if they are questions so
that we can have the commissioners reply to the same. Please, so that we can be able to
give…
Interjection: (not clear)
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Com. Alice:… each and everybody (laughter) (not clear) Well, now that it has been said
that we have been giving our views on the sort of constitution wall, I will withhold my
comment on majimboism and other issues. But there is one thing I want to talk about,
civic education. Now, one year since the commission was officially flagged off, civic
education has not started at least in the university. And the Wanjiku one, the Otieno in the
university still do not know what the constitution entails and they have said we are
intellectuals. (wooing) But it is true that a number of us still really do not know what the
constitution entails. (claps) some of us know but we really do not know what is wrong
with our constitution. And our understanding was that civic education was meant to
stimulate public discussion and awareness on constitutional matters. When Commissioner
Yano started speaking she made it clear that she came here to stimulate public
discussions and awareness. And I was wondering, has the commission come here to
conduct civic education or what? Because that was the role of civic education. (laughter)
Now the least of it is this, that some of us took our time to visit the offices of the
commission to establish whether Musso, some and other student grouping could be
allowed to conduct civic education. And we were told that if you want to conduct civic
educating you have to be corporate body that is capable of suing and being sued.
(Laughter) and that means my dear friends that no student grouping apart from the Kenya
Law Student Society is eligible to undertake civic education because it is the only student
grouping that is registered at the registrars society. (outburst)
In spite of all that, (x3) we still went ahead and a number of us applied. There was this
group called Moi University youth in Action Association, am the chairman of the Moi
University Youth in action Association and I made an application on behalf of the Moi
University youth in Action Association,. So that we can be allowed to conduct civic
education. That was two months ago, up to now we have even started loosing moral
because exams are approaching, when are we going to start commencing this thing, why
don’t you give us the privilege so that we start conducting civic education and if it is
impossible then tell us that Mr. Kanjwang and your complains you cannot conduct civic
education. We want to get an assurance that civic education students can be allowed.
Secondly, we also want to make it very clear that within the university I know political
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parties have also been lobbing so that they can be allowed to conduct civic education but
we want to assure the commissioners that we are not going to allow political parties,
Maendeleo ya Wanawake, youth wingers, Mungiki or any other groups (cheers from
audience).
We are not going to allow any other grouping to step in to the university to conduct civic
education if we are student, we cannot be allowed to conduct civic education. And if they
come we shall kick them out and we shall lock the gate. (cheering from audience).
Secondly, on he issue of constituency constitutional forum, I wanted to say a little bit on
this but I receive an assurance from. I believe commissioner Abida but they will be
coming back so we are happy because the initial understanding, we thought that you
wanted to come ambush us and you expect memorandum from us and we were going to
tell you that we are not giving you memorandum because we cannot be given two days or
three days to prepare memorandum. So we are happy about that.
Thirdly, on the issue of national conference: now I have had an opportunity go through
the act and we know that the national conference is the sort of the final authority because
we have been assured that even parliament itself is not going to discuss whatever has
been approved by the national conference. Now, I do not know whether I got the wrong
act but as, according to the act I have its says that national conference, yes, composed of
commissioners, members of parliament, local government authorities but Commissioner
Ayano brought in a new dimension of three district representatives and political parties
representatives. I would like to get some light whether the act was amend so as to specify
clearly because initially, the act said that interest groups like youth groups, women
groups, so on and so forth provided, that they do not take more than fifteen percent of the
total membership of the commission. Even though the commission has been given the
powers to regulate it’s procedure, now what we wanted to say is this that as students,
incase that 15% close is still there we want to be the ones to represent the youth because
this people that you are looking at here, these are youth leader in their villages.
(cheering).
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My dear friends, and am going to say the truth that as team commissions this are the
youth leaders because when they go back to the villages they are respected and their
opinions are taken very seriously simply because they are in the university through
regular means rather than parallel means. (cheering) My dear friends, my dear friends and
esteemed commissioners, we want to make it very clear that since it is the commission
that determines which group of people feeds or qualifies to be called an interest group.
We as the university students also be included within the bracket of 15% and when you
are considering youth leaders. Please start from the universities, start from Mark Asembo,
start from Bwobwo, start from this congress you see here. Because these are the leaders
of the youth so we are saying that, that 15% bracket incase it still exists we should not be
left out.
Finally, it is on the completion of the work of the commission. Well, the commission has
been on existence for I believe close to thirteen months now. And now much has really
happened, and in the remaining eleven months we are really not sure whether the
commission is really going to complete its stuff. People have been talking of minimum
reforms. Now, a lot of resources have been invested in the commission such that if the
commission wants to come up with just one or two reforms. I believe that the resources
that have been employed or dedicated to the review process will not be well used if the
commission can walk around the country in two years big Nissan patrols, big park-side
allowances, (cheering) then they want to come and give us some minimum reforms. It is
my view because I believe and the view of the three students I was seated next to, but we
are not talking about minimum reforms we have employed, deployed a lot of resources
into the review exercise. What we want is a thorough over hold, when we come up with
issues like minimum reforms I am an Information Science student and when you talk of
minima reforms to our institution it is like you know buying a new monitor or buying a
new C.P.U. but you do not replace the monitor then you find at the end of the day the
C.P.U. and the monitor are incompatible.
So, e want a thorough over hold, we do not want a situation where we try or beg
constitutional review to the elections. I think because if we tie it to the elections, are we
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reviewing the constitution to kick Moi out, are we reviewing the constitution to bring in a
new breed of looters and autocrats? Let us not tie the review exercise to the elections and
if the commission has earnestly believe hat they cannot complete the work on time and at
least they have started giving indications that they will not be able to complete it. Let
them make a request early enough and let us have a commission or a constitutional
review that is thorough, that is comprehensive because these are the leaders who are
going to inherit or who are going to live or who are going to govern under that
constitution. We do not want a situation whereby ten years from now, when we are the
presidents and prim ministers of this land we sanction or we commission another
constitutional review. The Americans did it in the 1850’s when Benjamin Franklin was
still there and their document is still intact, that is the kind of document we want.
Let us not pay preview to the elections, we do not minimum reforms, we want the
constitutional review exercise to be conducted in a comprehensive manner, thankyou.
Those are my views, (cheering from crowd).
: And I want to add on the secretary that during 1997 we had 2 commissions who were
acting to review the whole process of commission. This was the I.P.P.G. At the same
time, we had the Akiumi land report. At the same time this year we have again Njonjo
land report and the commissioners reviewing.. (laughter) commissioners coming up to
review. Now, if anything has usually taken place once we are seeing that the thing can
take place again. Now in 1997 we saw I.P.P.G. and the Akiumi land report never
implemented, how sure are we and how sure are Kenyans that the commission is going to
re-implement and going to work onto what we care going to give them.
And on the other note, I want to put it clear today that for whatever we are going to put
to this commission as university students and youth, we are going to put into place the
civil education of our main agenda. Because for one thing, we go to school simply
because there are ideal and issues, beliefs and aspirations that are ensuring our stay both
in the universities (murmurs) … and once we are in school the first (not clear) through
the national policy and through the national objective of education is the unitary system
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of government. We are endowed to work on a unitary system. We are brought up to ideas
that are affecting us through a national system. So we are a national investor, we are
requesting that the commission to undertake the duties that our policies are being worked
on. From that instant I would like to put up few recommendations before we work onto
this constitution review process.
For that case, the civic education that we are talking of you are the very people who put
into place the issue that it should be undertaken by the corporate bodies. You have still
the powers to scrap of the issue and put it back to students and the entire nation.
When KANU and NDP were meeting in the parliament, that is the K.I.C..C., they enacted
and groun that university should undertake the whole process of constitution review. Now
the team that is in place is the team that is enacted by the KANU government. If it is the
KANU government that brought you the power and the authority, why not give us that
part (applause).
At the same time while you will be coming to Eldoret South, we want the university
students and the community of this place to e given a constituency status whereby if you
are going to collect views from the whole constituency, give us our constituency status so
that we give our views within the university. (clapping).
Another thing, (hustling) I want to put it clear to the commissioners, I am still going back
to my point that I stopped , one Kenyan still have a cloud lingering in their mind and this
is the cloud that are talking against this issue of the scientism of your work. For one thing
if we had a powerful hand, kumbe, giving a mandate to a commission and this is our
greatest concern, we do want to waste our time with a constitution that we know is not
going to be implemented.
Before 1992 general election, we had commissions that were implemented. We had the
(not clear), we had the Kamunge, we had the Makay, who were put into place. Now,
since 1992 we had these things are never undertaken. How sure are you, and you should
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give Kenyans an assurance this is the constitution that is going to be implemented and
how are you going to work out that this constitution is not (not clear) Applause).
Another thing, the constitution review committee is not consistent into how they
communicate to us. We don’t know whether they are coming up at a given town to
conduct public lectures. We do not know when they are going round collecting views, we
do not know at any time whether they are going round doing the whole process of the
constitution because we are mixed up. When they come to Moi University they tell us it’s
a public lecture but the own thin is undertaken and I’m giving you assurance, for you to
see these people back here, it’s going to be a problem. (laughter) today is our time. If
anybody has something to present let us give them and just like they were telling
parliamentarians in Nairobi that if you do not come to the public lecture to give your
views, there is no time (not clear) to give the views. So today if we are not going to be
able to give our views be assured that they are not going to be taken anywhere, you are
going to remain with them. (laughter) so for that case allow me to give out views for
the…
Audience: (outburst) yes.
Com. Alice: (not clear).
Audience: Yes.
Interjection: And then you come back again (Murmurs)
Com. Abida: thank you. Please give me an opportunity to attend to answer the questions
that have been raised. I want to first answer Professor and tell him that when we made
reference to the faculty of law we want o use it as a focal point, but we intend to have
everyone at this campus involved.
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Com. Abida: We are not… the three of us (laughter) we do not wish to discriminate any
of the faculties, departments of the university.
On the issue of state house, (laughter) I wish to point out to you that, this commission has
taken an oath to be non-partisan. We take what you have mentioned to us but we want to
assure you that the president is also a citizen of this country. (outbursts) He is the head of
state… (outbursts). Now if at anytime the commission has to visit the president, it will
not go there to eat ugali, we will be dong that in the course of our business. (murmurs).
But we take great cognizance of your fear and we do not intend to go here unnecessarily.
(clapping) You have our confidence and you have our assurance that, that will not
happen. Now, I think that I would like to assure Mr. Kajwang that he seems to be
refereeing to an act that was amended in 2001. We will leave a copy behind maybe so
that you can update your library. (Applause) But we are very happy Mr. Kajwang that
you took the trouble to read the review act. A lot of young people and a lot of Kenyans
(laughter) have done that. What happened is that before the merger of Ugungamano and
the parliamentary select committee’s commissioners, the act was amended to take into
account came of the things that you have mentioned. So you simply just have to update so
that you know what is happening. (outbursts).
Now we have also taken note and are going to recommend that when we visit (outbursts)
.. when we visit the constituencies, (outbursts), I will talk to the best of my ability and
hope that all of you will hear. Now when we visit the constituencies we will take note
that we need to treat you as a special constituency so that we have enough time to take
your views (clapping). And on the fear of whether our report will be implemented, I wish
to make you understand that although we cannot a 100% be so sure because this is really
within the state machinery, that this particular commission was brought into being by an
act of parliament and not a presidential decree like the others.
There is a also a requirement that this process should be entrenched in the constitution so
that any scrapping of the review process can be done by 2/3 majority in parliament. We
have been promised that this will happen before parliament goes for Christmas vacation.
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So let us be hopeful, but in our opinion it is for you as Kenyans together with the
government to ensure that the report is implemented. This is our country and we should
no let a few people decide the fate of the country (murmurs).
On the issue of information, we also take note and we are trying as a commission as
much as possible to publicize all our undertakings, all the different stages of the review
process. We are going to have a website in less than a month where you can access and
get relevant information. Mr. Borr is our co-ordinator in this part of the country.
Interjection: yah. (laughter)
Com. Abida: … and we will ask him to leave his address so that as and when you want
to have an update of the activities of the commission, he should be available to you. He is
going to have an office within the precincts of the county council. We are going to have a
documentation there as well although we take cognizance of the fact that the campus
requires its own documentation centre. So he is available at your service during office
hours at all times. Is there anything else to be said?
Audience: (outburst)
Com. Abida: Now, in connection with the provision of civic education we are very
surprised that Mr. Kajwang was informed that we are dealing with groups that are
registered. That is news to us, Mr. Kajwang we can assure you that if you were given that
information that is not the official position of the commission. We want to engage as
many people as possible, we would urge you as students to feel comfortable by having
civic educators that you are comfortable with, we do not intend to impose politicians,
maendeleo ya wanawake or any other group on you.
And am told that a number of organizations within the campus that applied have been
short-listed for civic education. We are soon going to come back to all the ones that have
been short-listed, so that we can then start the process of civic education. That should not
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be a fear coming from this quarter. I think, unless there is anything I have left, I have
tried to tackle all the questions. There is also the issue of time frame, the commission
came in to being in November 2000, so that is exactly one year but like I said before the
first six months were used in negotiations. There were very protracted negotiations that
involved the civil society, youth leaders, politicians and the commission did not
effectively start it’s work until July this year. So we have been in office for 6 months and
it is our hope that we are doing the much that we can do as human beings.
We work 24 hours, you can see we don’t even have voices noise because we have been
engaging people at different levels. But it is our assurances that if it is humanly possible,
we will work within the time frame. If it is not, we do not intend to give you a shady
piece of legislation. Constitution is the supreme law in this country, we intend to hear
from each one of you and we are not going to limit because we are in a hurry to finish
the work by September 2001, thankyou, 002.
Com. Alice: yes, can we get now contributors from right behind there, you gentleman,
you are a gentleman?
But it is like you are not sure of yourself. Why am I saying this? I am saying this because
the government and the constitution we have been going by the current constitution. I
hope those who are at the back are listening to me. It is unfortunate we don’t have a
microphone here but mine is a natural loud speaker (laughter). The current constitution
that we have today dictates the indeed we are not independent. We are here to get
independence. Now, give me time to explain, I will take only five minutes. Now, what
am saying is this, my question is this to the commission; How immune are you? Because,
with the kind of president and the powers that are given to the president he is a nice old
man who can wake up one morning and say (noise), he’s one person who can say that we
have suspended the movement of the commission). What are you going to do if your
duties are suspended? Point commission at anyone and it was not implemented what are
you going to do? And now (clapping).
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Secondly, now that you are showing to us, you have given us the line that you are not
dealing with registered groups, we have unregistered groups here, we request that you
treat Moi University as a special constituency. (laughter).
: Do not repeat what has already been said.
Speaker: .. Am saying that, we are now a student body to continue schooling.. .(noise).
We request review whatever (committees) and those committees I understand are going
to be headed by the members of parliament, so my preposition was that these committees
should not vote members of parliament because they are interested parties and they are
interested in status. School so that is my view (clapping).
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CONSTITUTING OF CONSTITUTIONAL CONSTITUENCY COMMITTEES,
APAMO TRANS-NZOIA-WEST-POKOT, 23RD NOVEMBER 2001
That may be the commission we are not addressed with the happenings on the ground, so
we did not really know about the harambee the was going to take place, and this is a
programme that is on going through out the country. Probably if we had gotten word
from the ground, then we would have postponed it maybe to, or we would have done it
yesterday. But we didn’t know and we are saying that, since we are here we will try to do
the best that we can and since we are not all together may be we just consult and have
your views since we have the document with you on how best you think we can handle
the situation, in your respective constituencies. Following the guideline that we have for
the commission and when your colleagues come we can maybe have a session and then
maybe we can make a meeting in Nairobi where we can finalize, so that we have
consensus in all the districts.
Probably if we look at page two of the document, I think our major problem would be in
‘c’ where we wish to have seven other members apart from the sitting M.P, the Chairman
of the county council and the district coordinator. Then we have to pick on seven other
members and see how best we can work on that without having any complications,
because ten are too few but having consulted with the P.S.C., the felt a number beyond
ten will be unmanageable, in the circumstance. And probably, the coordinators can tell us
what he has in mind on the seven.
Coordinator: I think I wouldn’t say more than the regulations really but its issue, I
believe we can solve.
: For me seven is very good because my location is seven, so it solves my problem.
Lady: and I hope it also solves the issue of ethnicity, age, cooperation, religion, women,
because we would want to have at least a third of the number to be women. We would
like to have people with disability if there are any in the constituency, youth.
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Coordinator: Maybe I can tell you that the two of us we’ve no problem because we are
not in KANU. Its only KAN people who insist on men but for us ... in fact.
Lady: ... our feelings right now is that everybody is getting sensitized you did ahead of
KANU but they are catching up!
Coordinator: But, in fact this thirty percent somebody was talking about is yesterday.
Whoever came to with thirty percent, what did he have in mind? I don’t think in terms of
thirty percent, I think in terms of fifty percent and you know we will try to at least in
Kwanza we will try to go for fifty percent. Fifty percent women, fifty percent men.
Question: Now you said, the number is seven but is there room of lets say for picking
nine?
Lady: You see, the total overall, we are recommending is ten. And we are hoping we
could even do with less than ten due to financial implications. But if there is a very, very
genuine reason these are guidelines, your one will be able to justify but reluctantly I think
the commission would agree. Because we are looking at the financial implications and
the logistics. And then, Mheshimiwa Wakilwa maybe one thing that we wish to, in fact
we were really having a heated debate; there is a nominated M.P. from your area,
Honourable Kitonyi. We would like to involve her as well just to avoid politics, if she
could have an input in a way. And we were hopping that putting the political differences,
if any, aside is there a way we could probably get her to propose some names. Because if
you talk of leaders, we are hoping that we are talking about leaders who cut across the
board.
I would think that probably in your constituency you have people with different political
affiliations, so that it doesn’t seem as if we are sidelining here. Because she spoke to the
coordinators yesterday and said that she would like to have an input, I don’t know how
well you think we could handle that?
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Before you answer, I have a question. Is this what’s happening in all the constituencies
where there is a nominated M.P.? If not, then I think it’s difficult for people.
You know what we are saying Mheshimiwa, this is a national process and we insist look
as independent as we can. We must be able to be above the petty politics that play around
on the ground. So what we were talking is, is there a possibility that Mheshimiwa
Wakilwa maybe can seat with those on that on Mheshimiwa Kitonyi, and agree on same
names, yes? So that, you know what we don’t want is the usual petty politics I think
mheshimiwa you are aware.
And then the other thing we are very naive at the commission. This is something that we
never though of. We have come her and we have found it but in fact, Alice made a joke
as we were moving here, and she said no wonder you are from ufungamano!
I laughed over it Because,... so what we are trying to say is that you help us to make the
best out of this situation, because we don’t want to be involved in politics and we want
these process to be above board. and between you and mheshimiwa Ziporah Kotonyi, we
are speaking to you openly on this and sang help us to bring her on board in a way so
that it doesn’t become political.
M. Wakilwa: Now, let me say this the chairman, fist lets sort out the issue of numbers
and then I will come to that.
Now this be the chairman of the county council happens not to come from the
constituency, so I was wondering how do you treat ‘B’?
: Or a consicillor designated by him or her?
M. Wakilwa: Because, but I think it is clear,
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: It can come from any constituency other than, the chairman can come from any
constituency from the district and that upon the district coordinator to determine that. But
you can get a councillor from your own area who can be a member of the committee.
: What she means is that he can come from Chevang’ari, what we can do is, don’t think
about the chairman because they don’t apply to you now, think of a councillor from my
constituency. That sort out the problem of chairman, just like Mheshimiwa in Kwanza
will do the same thing. So the chairman is not a problem.
M. Wakilwa: Now, as the other questions it maybe useful to give you a background of
my constituency. and as we are here, the constituency aids committee has not been
lunched officially, because of the same confusion that we have been creating. I would not
mind to make a member of the committee, constituency committee by I would-be shaking
my responsibility to allow us to eliminate members of that constituency when am the
sitting M.P.
And you see, lets look at it technically,. When somebody is nominated M.P. does she
own part of the constituency she resides in? Because like for example Mark too was
nominated M.P. and he has farms in all the seven constituencies in the north Rift, where
can he claim, where would he have claimed that, or Uhuru Kenyatta for example, he is
nominated he comes from Gatundu and he has a farm in Rongai. can he say that he is
going to nominate in Rongai and Gatundu? So, I want us to be very clear on this and that
is why I was early because I know she has run the B.C. to pick nine names of “our
people” and they want to set-up another parallel team that is going to cause confusion on
the ground. So, I am going to be very emphatic on that and I wish she was here because
she has not even approached me on that!
: No, she spoke to us through the district, actually she looked for us last night but couldn’t
get us.
: Did she look for us or through the coordinator?
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: No, No she even met Len aula but, ... she looked for all of us actually.
: You see Mheshimiwa what we are saying, and I will keep on repeating what I have said
earlier, you know as commissioners we want to look above all ourselves. We really don’t
want to be involved in all this and now that you have even come up with a very good
example both in the committee. This is a stalemate already! How can we avoid this
stalemate in our own set-up so that we can be able to work together without, in fact when
I was congratulating Abida right now, telling her no wonder she came from ufungamano
because she was kind of giving a very, very good reasoning behind it,. Yes! What if he
can be able to get Mheshimiwa to maybe agree with her and she may not even oppose the
names....
: We want it to be a such a way that we have consensus and maybe what we can do if we
could even give an opportunity maybe to nominate one or two and argue at the
commission that due to this peculiar problem, you would like to see that you have your
ten and probably, just to avoid politics we don’t want her to be the cause of the problem
later on and we say we cannot have our committee!
: I think Mheshimiwa has a suggestion here that we would mind her being in the
committee which takes care of one person. how far can you go?
M. Wakilwa: No, I think that is the farthest I can go. This is my constituency and I think
I will be the member for the next few, a couple of years.
Com. Abida: But the Mheshimiwa, let me put it this way. Supposing we don’t change
the recommended nine now, since you have given her one which we are very grateful
about, and we argue at the commission if she’s adamant and we say let us then give her
two, that they become twelve. If we can argue that, I don’t know whether we will be
successful. Would you have a problem with that? Because our worry is to have a
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stalemate and we will seat with her and, left on her own one can reason with here, I
think....
M. Wakilwa: But really Abida, what is it that is in my constituency that she feels she has
a business in supporting? The fact...
Com. Abida: I think the fact that she was nominated from there, which is now political
and as we are really not politicians, we wouldn’t understand.
: Kwa hivyo mheshimiwa should be able to tell us, come to our rescue, lets hear from
him.
Com. Abida: It’s very complicated for us
Com. Lenaula: Me am very bias against her, let me declare the rest. She is not the sort of
person who will cone to Mheshimiwa Wakilwa and say, “hey we have got a problem in
your constituency, lets seat down and talk”. Whereas I know from experience that he
doesn’t mind meeting her. But she would like to do her things through the D.C. and
through the president. This we really look down upon events like that, we can’t run things
in a manner that you are calling, you want to be supported from elsewhere.
That’s one point I want to make. the second one, Mheshimiwa Wakilwa, the way I look at
it, just to assist them; you retain your seven and they go and argue that she can appoint
two and then they become very adamant. Because, they have not respond to my query
and the same goes with Kirks, because I raised it in parliament, what is happening in
other constituencies where there is a nominated M.P.? And this situation in Cherang’ani
does not occur elsewhere, so here we have a person who has an access to the president
and she wants to use all this.
Com. Abida: Mheshimiwa, its really very clear, its says the member of parliament
meaning the seating member but what we are saying, because we can foresee a problem
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already, how do we block it? Because it can bring a stalemate for no reason but our
regulations gazzeetted are very clear. We are dealing with a sitting M.P. but we can
foresee the usual problems that people create, how do we avoid it?
We can easily tell her we are going round it, we know you are interested and we will
allow you only so many out of. if we can arrive at that consensus because at the end of
the day, if we have a stalemate we are talking about the people in your constituency
having the problem. Really, it will not be you, it will not be us, it will not be Honourable
Zipporah Kitonyi. and we would like to avoid that!
: Mheshimiwa my suggestion, is to my colleagues, let us stick to the letter of the
guidelines. Mheshimiwa have your seven but we have Monday to include others. Let us
have, let us keep you within the confines of the others. Then we can, because the unique
situation of the Cherang’ani let us have two others but as far as you are concerned, we
must maintain yourself.
M. Wakilwa: But I hope you have heard my case, [absolutely] yes, and I hope it is clear
because you see the problem is, these are people who don’t believe I exist as an M.P. I
don’t do harambees, they have blocked it though their riot police. the (not clear) in my
constituency is not there, is not picked up, there are parallel list. You know the fear I have
and I hope you will not say Kirwa was right in future. s that I will give you a list and out
of the list that I will give you after our consultation, they will ignore that list and they will
say they want the list that they themselves have appointed to be the, one of the list to deal
with the constituency.
: You know the position here is that the list is going to come from us. This sitting here, is
the one that will come with the list eventually that we will use at the commission level.
We will not accept any other list, take it from us. So whatever list you give us here, that
will include Honourable Kitonyi will lets say if you recommend two more people, that is
it. We will stick to it, and I think by now probably I hope, you have realized that we are
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refusing to have pressure from anywhere. That is why we don’t even have the D.C. or the
D.O. her.
this is really the final from her. and that is specifically why a commissioner had to seat
incase of a situation that, like this. Where we are saying on behalf of the commission this
is what we are taking.
: Any other list, we want to list to prepare here, we will not... and he knows that, that
when he works coz of the guy on the ground he will not be working with the parallel
committee, he will be working in this list because he is convener of al meetings.
: So, I think this is more organized than the Kirks!
: I think we are more in control because we will not accept and at the commission level
we don’t allow any sort of interference absolutely.
Com. Lenaula: And we shall inform her, you see, this is the decision we will make. We
shall inform her that this is the list we have prepared. The Member of Parliament from
opposition and we have the following option, Nominator two or three or stick out. and
take it from us that we shall also inform her and attempt in our own level...
Com. Alice: You see you also made a mistake Lenaula yesterday, what you should have
done is not to meet her, that is the best way of putting these people together by assuming
that they are together, so that when Mheshimiwa says such a thing, are you getting it?
She also, it holds also to her that this is what should be done as per the act? But you know
when we see these people defiantly we r seeing ... avoid it!
Com. Lenaula: For the record, I walked in the club and she actually called me and said
where is Alice and where is Abida? and I said they are not there and I said we cannot
discuss this.
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Com. Alice: Because the information on the ground is that Lenaula and Abida, have
already assured her that she is going to bring her list. Now we are getting another
assurance to do right now. You know, at the end of the day, we will be like ‘this’, so I
think the best thing immediately after this Lenaula, we have to get her and I would rather
even when we get her, we get her when Mheshimiwa also is there. If a tall you will at all
be around Mheshimiwa because it is also it is very important this process sis so important
its above law. You know, nobody should be heard to want to control a process like this, it
should be very independent. So, I don’t want us to talk to persons differently.
Com. Lenaula: I think we should now reach some consensus since we have issues on
board.
M. Wakilwa: Incidentally the two of you are lawyers.
Com. Alice: all of us!
M. Wakilwa: When somebody is nominated, does he, does that person gain some access
to part of representation of that constituency? [No] it would make some sense for you to
tell me the KANU, because I no longer agree with KANU believes that you may not be
able to nominate members who are KANU, and therefore the ruling party will nominate
two. But you see he is telling me a nominated M.P. now is we nominated you today and
let's say you have a farm in Aldai and another farm in Garissa, where are you going to
say you are the M.P.?
Com. Abida: Yeah, there is a problem, Mheshimiwa we really agree with you entirely,
we agree with all your sentiments but we want to be practical. We are saying you will
face a problem. Isn’t it? In the sense that they may want to sideline your list, so to
overcome and to be one step ahead of them, can we allow her? she may not, by the way
we may try to reason with her the way we are reasoning with you.
Com. Alice: I would rather we call her when we will be together.
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Com. Lenaula: By the way why to call her because she ought to have been in the
meeting, why to call her.
Com. Alice: she can’t be here, Mheshimiwa has even known that when President Moi is
al..
Com. Abida: But you know Alice, what am thinking is if we call Honourable Zipporah
here, we may even have a bigger problem because she may want to be at power with you.
We know according to...
M. Wakilwa: then hold the public rally in my constituency.
Com. Abida: No, no what we are saying is the letter is very clear.
M. Wakilwa: You are not making things any better now, I would rather there is a
stalemate than me sending part of power as..
Com. Abida: We don’t want you to send at all, we just want you to assist us to be a step
ahead of here.
M. Wakilwa: But why are you making her so important?
Com. Abida: She is not important.
M. Wakilwa: She has frustrated me now, why are you participating in this frustration?
Because the commission, you are supposed to be independent.
Com. Abida: Precisely!
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M. Wakilwa: And you see, as am supposed to supply you a list. And once I supply you a
list, it is for you to tell me this list is not representative of the constituency. Because what
I was thinking myself is that now you get people from all communities and schools of
thought. Even those who are seen to be KANU diehard, as long as I feel they are useful to
this particular process.
Com. Abida: Okay can we do this Mheshimiwa if you will allow us but I think this may
not even help. We can get the list from you, because she will approach us with that we
know that it is not legally binding but we don’t want to make this process really a legal
process, we want it to be a political process like we are reminded all the time. Should she
have a problem with the list that we will ask her to give us names that we shall come back
to you and say, because she is KANU anyway. Zipporah is KANU, she doesn’t, with a lot
of due respect to her she will not give us the names seriously speaking from herself she
will have consulted elsewhere.
We will come back to you and say these are the names, two names that we wish to add to
the list and live it to that. Knowing that you are the seating M.P., the act recognizes you
and not her but we are trying to resolve or trying to see that we don’t have anything to
mess our process. And this is, we really want you to agree to with, because we don’t want
to do anything that upsets you or anything that is unacceptable to you. And we are very
happy that this is happening now in the absence of everybody else because I don’t think
we would have resolved it. I think it’s really God sent that you came when the other
people were not here but we seriously agree with you we want to work with you but we
want you to help us resolve a problem that we can see happening.
And we really appreciate that you are the sitting M.P. and we should be working with you
and not the nominated M.P.
M. Wakilwa: So, I give you the two chances?
Com. Abida: Yes.
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M. Wakilwa: And therefore she looses her position, the seven have to come from me?
Com. Abida: Absolutely, that ‘s fine we have no problem with that.
M. Wakilwa: The Councillors, off course and myself, so the two you can take, yeah?
Com. Alice: Okay, Satia you must work very closely.
Com. Lenaula: I think thankyou Mheshimiwa that we resolved a burning problem.
Thankyou.
M. Wakilwa: Now, the other suggestion, now in this case I happen to be a man and I
have no, yes I think I have a lady Councillor in my constituency.
Com. Alice: Now it’s upon you Mheshimiwa now to come up with the list.
M. Wakilwa: yes, I think that’s okay.
Com. Alice: that is one-third are women.
Com. Lenaula: Yes, as long as the guideline is at the one-third women, then
Mheshimiwa for the fifty percent.
Com. Alice: So, Mheshimiwa is giving us fifty percent. I hope Honourable Kirwa will l
pick from you!
M. Wakilwa: you should have been in Bunge yesterday, it was funny, somebody
suggested that since,
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Com. Alice: You are now on another thing, isn’t it?
Com. Abida: But you can live for his notes because we don’t want to writ anything.
Com. Alice: No but you know we are off that, isn’t it? He is talking about parliament you
want hat to be recorded.
Com. Abida: no but he can need it.
: We will pick other things.
M. Wakilwa: that I want to say,
Com. Abida: Okay switch it off.
M. Wakilwa: that’s all my problem, that’s all my problem, what about a general comment
on the constitution review nationally. There is a tendency for a lot of us to think that you
are going to give us a time limit on which to complete the process. I think that should not
be the case.
Com. Abida: We agree.
M. Wakilwa: a constitution for this country is such an important happening in fact since
I was a young boy there has been nothing like that except maybe 1963, and land of staff
and also, they are different. And look how long it has taken! What we are going to do and
you happen to be part of the history, what we are going to do is going maybe to last
another fifty, sixty years. We should not mention about time limits, it is so important to
Kenyans, so important to,
Com. Abida: Mheshimiwa, what is going to happen is that we as a commission also need
a pressure from different quarters to complete, and people have their own good reasons
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but in a weeks time we are going to spend time discussing the time frame and mostly the
commissioners fell that we have to go to a constituency and be able to hear views until
the last person at the top. So we are hoping that we will not rush the process and we will
arrive at a consensus as a commission. and probably you will help us in your won way to
raise this so that we don’t appear as if we are trying to extend our time, you see people
are also like you people want to stay there and bla bla bla. But that is we would wish to
finish if we can but the reality on the ground is that we cannot finish and we are going to
put the plates and probably the idea we have is that maybe we should sample out some
constituencies especially the urban constituencies where civic education has penetrated.
See how long it takes as in that constituency then we can then gauge the time factor and
then come back but we have no intention of rushing the process at all.
Com. Lenaula: Then the event, if you need to extend time you as the process, you will
tell us now you have time, we don’t have time. so really the ball is in your cot so you are
the persons to extend time or to refuse to extend time.
Com. Abida: In fact what people say a term in the chick that how do we know that
parliament will extend the time but we are sure that you are all confused! Because if you
look at it by about June next year, people will not be interested in the process. It will...
M. Wakilwa: Now, there is public forum that you indicated that we are going to have a
public forum tomorrow. Are we required there or?
Com. Alice: We will be happy to have you, its an open general meeting, in fact we are
sending out invitations to individual what we have decided to do is advertised. Whoever
who wants to come let them come. We are still going to try to make out the four districts
to visit.
M. Wakilwa: Oh yes, here I was also wondering in future it is good for your information
to be properly coordinated because the list I got in parliament was that I was supposed to
be in the Kitale Municipal Council but I was told to have met Dr. Wekesa who informed
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me of the new venue and yesterday I managed to catch-up with Mr. Satia to tell me of the
new development. So it will be good in future any information that is posted to us is
correct.
Com. Abida: We are sorry about it. This particular trip we were actually supposed to be
in the field for a long time and there are twenty one days and we would have gone to
every district but there was a last ten minute change and unfortunately the secretariat was
not able to communicate with people, and we are very sorry about I and happy that you
got the information.
M. Wakilwa: How about in terms of publicity because I think this process is also useful
for members of the public to be as informed as possible of what is going on. I don’t know
what you have the commission, what you have in mind because I was thinking it maybe
useful for example, when you have a certain function, it’s put either on radio or through
the press. Because it’s a very important process and if it will cost you money that cost is
worthwhile so that at least the people know where you are and for Kenyans to realize
there is something going on.
Because now I can realize, I have realized from the list that actually you are almost
allover the country but probably to many people they are not aware that you are already
doing something. So tomorrow I may start off course If I didn’t have this information to
say the commissions idle, is doing nothing. And you see that will really be unfortunate
from a leader like me, yes, to have said something like that. So I was suggesting if you
can put it on radio. Our people are very keen like when there is recruitment of police and
when there is another function. We just keep on every morning, remind Kenyans there is
something about the constitution.
: And while we are on communication, this is your own internal issues but I thought I
should mention the fact that it’s very important for the district coordinators to be mobile,
I wonder whether we are going to have cars from them, telephone, mobile telephone is
the best and an office where we can reach them and you provide them with a clerk or a
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receptionist. There are so many kids out there that would even be happy with a thousand
shillings or two thousand shillings, just to sit behind a desk and see.
Com. Abida: That is being addressed, and we are hoping he has an office because if he
doesn’t we are ready to go, no they didn’t want to go but we will give him an office and a
station centre, and is he the one who offered the car?
Com. Lenaula: No!
Com. Abida: So, we will make sure that he has everything at his disposal..
M. Wakilwa: And that s good.
Com. Alice: and maybe also mheshimiwa maybe if you can leave us with your apparent
contacts so incase of anything maybe we can be able to get you.
Com. Abida: Now, the commission is so poor that we don’t even have cars. We just
make for ourselves, (laughter).
Com. Lenaula: I was going to ask the same question, am really embarrassed that I have
to produce my law firm, ...
Com. Abida: We can write our numbers, we will meet. Next time we meet we shall make
sure, we have details to ourselves
: But you have an office.
Com. Abida: Yes I have, we all have offices actually, Alice is in Nairobi, and she is
involved,...
: I would like all this to come from one division.
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Com. Abida: And maybe the other thing is that because am looking at what we have
here, the list we have and you see that we are having too many councilors, intentionally
that is why we have one shot for them, maybe the chairman or a person who designates a
councillor. So that w would not be very happy to have three people from the county
council because , really, we want to involve the wananchi s as much as we can, we can
avoid representation on the 12th, yah. Because this is really their process sat the end of
the day. Yeah, but if we have too many leaders then we have a problem of them feeling
that they are left out. So that if we can avoid let us just have one councillor.
:That is the chairman, or a councillor.
Com. Lenaula: Something like if you don’t have the chairman from the constituency you
can have a councillor.
Com. Alice: Katima you have to be very careful to make sure that we have the proper
ratios because when the list comes back we will just reject it and we don’t want to do
that. We want to take your list as you bring it to us because we are really on the ground.
But he should be very careful on the ratios because.
: Are there any ratios now, now we have to ask you any ratios about Bomet.
Com. Abida: yes, one third of the total ten so we expect three women and if possible we
will be very happy to have a person with disability and a youth in the line up it can be ...
Com. Lenaula: At least women and a person with disability; blind person or a lame
person or whatever then the others its you and the coordinator and then others. For
example, Katiliba, what he has done he has put youth, he has put councillors, he has put
Muslim, he has put the disabled, the youth, he has put a woman, he has put churchmen
but everyone, the list becomes powerful.
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Com. Abida: No, they are actually the do act, is very specific on that representation.
:Why don’t you change the rules?
Com. Abida: We cant because the act is the guiding rule for us.
:But yesterday we were changing rules.
Com. Lenaula: What rules presented for another woman will also present the youth.
Com. Abida: Or better still a woman who s a councillor if you have.
Com. Lenaula: You see it’s very difficult to get one person in a district. You may need
to get somebody soft but effective. Now they don’t have to be there are civil servants....
Com. Alice: We want you to build their capacity and to enable them at the highest level
you can get to a woman leader it doesn’t really matter. At the highest level even if she is
a Std. Seven, bring her. Because a leader doesn’t have to have gone to school at the end
of the day. And you se what we didn’t want and is that we were trying to push for
national organization at some point and we said no, if you go for instance to Turkana and
women are left on their own they should be able to choose their leader. So you go back to
the women if they have women groups let them be leaders, and we will deal with them at
that level we need to uplift them.
Com. Lenaula: But you see, look at the Chairlady, she is in every committee; aids
committee, roads committee, roads committee, what committee. And yet how she is very
popular within the women. So we would have to bring other women from necessary
lower level.
Com. Alice: Or if you have teachers I am sure you have a few, women teachers.
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: Yes we do
And then make sure that you have your meetings where they can take a day off or have it
after three o’clock or whatever, make use.
Com. Lenaula: Actually the law says that these committees will have their own reason...
Com. Abida: Not necessarily you can have time, I think this is really a tentative list isn’t
it?
Com. Lenaula: I hear today we meet with you then discuss the guidelines, if you are
comfortable with the guidelines then we can go work and bring in the districts.
Com. Lenaula: As I was saying, the guidelines are very loose, it’s really me and you to
decide who is resourceful, who is useful. We can resolve any guidelines, one can pick but
look at the position and say that for example there is a mzee who is very social and can be
nice. then we brig him on board.
: That’s why you see many councillors here apparently most of them are very resourceful.
Com. Alice: But you can’t get non-councllors, you know our problem is that we don’t
want to be mainly a leaders thing. So, am sure other than in a place where you are having
three councillors, the wazee’s like the ones you are saying village elders that who would
come in as opposed to having, who will have the same effect if not brought up.
Com. Lenaula: But we must use guidance on having this because in civic education then
we will mobilize on the ground and we are just about to start civic education in the
constituency. So lets use civic education, in the time now. We are on great time for the
council, you see the fact of getting mheshimiwa together is very difficult. yes it is the
human error so we being...
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: We don’t have the documents Abida!
Com. Alice: We wanted to take a copy, you have?
Com. Lenaula: Yeah I have.
Com. Alice: But all of them need, ooh then that’s the most, page two, that is the most
important part which give you,
Com. Abida: And maybe just a programme to it. We discussed this with the
parliamentary select committee by the way and they are the ones who suggested the
figure ten, because of management, they thought that if we had a bigger group we would
have an issue of effectiveness so we are hoping that the number is really acceptable to all
of you.
Com. Lenaula: Yes, initially we have no say, maybe fifteen, we reduce it to seven then
we compromise at ten, so we discuss this document at one point. Sow we consider that is
on how to balance with women.
: So once, they are appointed when are we going to discuss?
Com. Abida: I think as soon as we have the file, they are from all over the place,
Com. Lenaula: the first meeting will be convened by the coordinator in the presence of
the member of parliament so as soon as we arrange to maybe contact the committee at
convenience, we are supposed to collect views, to have met these tow months before.
:So, the whole programme was withdrawn, in districts.
Com. Lenaula: It’s withdrawn but after constitution, yesterday, the hearing, we missed
that. So what we have said we need to go to the districts, so as soon as we go back to
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Nairobi probably in two, three weeks we can get in the districts in good time. Coz we
think we need a presence in the commission. But you see again that’s different from the
time when we come to collect views in the constituency. This is only in this meeting now
then we shall come to the whole session, see it in constitution that everybody has made
their views, not that will probably generate fro this area, we shall inform you in good
time.
: The disability probably a must, right?
Com. Abida: No it’s not a must if you really don’t fid a person then you can go to
whatever process.
Com. Lenaula: Yeah, you se in same places you may have disabled people but they will
not talked much. But we must have regard to the issue when we address. When we
mentioned last week and I was telling Abida, then the programme is changed the day we
met with you so,..
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LEADERS ESSENTIAL MEETING HELD AT MOSORIOT TEACHERS TRAINING
COLLEGE,
Speaker. : I’m Abida Ali, _____ and together with us here we have a ____ I’m thinking you
should ( tape uncler)
Speaker: Thank you. You are very much welcome. May be you sign this register that’s where
I can get the names. (Laughter)
Com. Abida Ali: Otherwise we are very glad that welcome the commission, we had intentions
of coming over but due to logistical problems we cut down our visit various places, but your
calling had features so when we realized that we require a bit of time, we thought there was an
opportunity to still come and speak to the students because that is an added achievement in our
agenda and we are glad that we are about achieve that.
Speaker : When you call me, we normally a bit concerned, some people come in form civic
education and so on, and I told them that does not make sense. We know you are a government
representatives, to the commission and for sure we should support you always, so this is a
primary teacher training institution and actually when I got the information I found the staff and
the students they are waiting for you. They are in class now and will complete their class at four.
Com. Abida Ali: (inaudible)
Speaker: So you have been on this side. How long have you been in this area?
Com. Abida ali: This is our second day though we came earlier, and yesterday we had a session
at Moi University, it was very encouraging, infact we can see we have _ awaited, we really had
to answer a lot of questions and it was very ___ can I open but the young people have a lot these
days and they really wish to be involved in the problems.
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The other thing is that what we think is that they are ambassadours in their own lives because if
you talk for instance to a student they solved that when they go home over the Christmas holiday
and we are then visiting for purposes of civic education or barazas, they will be able to assist the
other people in understanding what we are trying to do.
Yah, and we therefore had spoke to
most of the higher education planning and still hope that they will come back at some point and
to visit the other people in ___
Speaker: Thank you.
So you have this programme now, it is part of your … this is the
programme now in visiting the sign of civic education.
Com. Abida Ali: This is kind of civic education but we are not going into details because of our
curriculum but we are introducing the process to the institutions of higher learning and we also
had a session with the provision institution yesterday, this morning we had sessions with the
chairman of the county council and the MPs although most of them was busy with ___,
Interjection: Speaker: Yes, I know
Com. Abida: So we still have quite a number of that.
Speaker: Yah, actually I have just come on from that. But draft because I knew you were
coming, you can now ___
Com. : But before you go back, may be we have know whether ____ the commission have got
to know the role that ___ and then open to this republic hearing here, so we got to know.
Com. Abida Ali: And _____ any issues that they may have.
Speaker: Yah, that will be abit of opportunity follow up, to know you, and even to get to know
what you really want from they public. You are welcome very much to Mosoriot Teachers
College. They are doing the exams. Next week we shall close.
Com. Abida Ali: Okay, infact you are worried?
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Speaker: Some colleges have started closing but they have their own reasons, could be may be a
___ something like that. But we are not supposed to close without reasons. Without permission
from the Ministry because there are set days to close, for us we have no reason to close early.
Inaudible talks.
Speaker: Oh yes, this is a very old mzee actually it is one of the old training colleges.
Com. Abida Ali: So how many students do you have?
Speaker: Finally they will go to 930.
Com. Abida Ali: Oh, it’s a big number.
Speaker: 930, but for now the first years are still coming. So I will introduce one of you and
one of you will introduce the others. The vice Chairperson.
Com. Isaac Lenaola : This is the vice chairperson, she will be _____ Abida Ali
Speaker: Abida,
Com. Abida Ali: inaudible
Speaker: So the procedure is may be we have a word of prayer then I will just …. And then
may be I don’t think they will take a long time
Com. Abida ali: May be we will have half an hour. Lets give them about 45 minutes. This will
______ about an hour
Speaker: You know, university students are out or of more of politicians than us.
Commissioners: Oh, oh, (laughter)
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____ called Kajwang, I think you mix the other Kajwang by _____ You know they are not
politicians and he is _____ when you say that everybody will clap, they____
Speaker: Yah, so they are students you know we are calm.
Commissioners: Yah, these ones are calm. They are calm. Although you are training them to
be teachers and you are bringing them up.
(laughter)
Speaker:
these people, we are training them to be teachers, so actually they should be
courteous. So I didn’t get something for you.
Commissioners: No, No, we are okay. Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you. Just feel free let me just coordinate something then I will just join you.
Commissioners: Okay.
Inaudible conversation
Com. Abida Ali: Anyway, since we had organized, pengine atasema I cancel.
Inaudible conversation
Com. Abida Ali: And you know people are also rude for reasons to buy office.
Laughter.
Speaker: So lady and Gentlemen, we can go out ____
Speaker: Commission of Kenya, our Principal,members of the speaking staff, students, ladies
and gentlemen, earlier on you had been informed that in the course of the day you would be
having visitors, very important visitors, and I think it was communicated to you that we would
assemble here and _____ that it would appear as soon as the visitors were sighted, the bell was
rung and you came here, that was good enough. Our visitors we have the members of our non
teaching staff who were out on a meeting somewhere, they are going to join us later. So let me
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request Mrs. Kirongo to lead us in a word of prayer and thereafter I will hand over to the
principal. Mrs. Kirongo.
Mrs. Kirongo: Lets pray. Father in heaven in the name of your son Jesus Christ, we do want to
thank you for this time. Thank you for our visitors, Lord for deleting ahead of us whatever we
are going to discuss and ask you to come and bless us. Help us God for this national importance.
We ask this through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen
Speaker: Mr. Principal sir, and now your chance to address ___ and gatherings.
Principal: Visitors, theDeputy Principal members of staff and the students good afternoon?
This meeting is rather abrupting the sense that I got the information this morning and as has been
said, it is important, this is something which touches all of us and I found it was good if these
visitors come and see us and talk to us. As it has been mentioned by the Deputy Principal, we
are all here, visitors, members of this community, actually it was our wish that everybody attend
this meeting. Because of the programmes which were intended to go on that is why the non
teaching staff are still out but they will join us in the next few minutes.
These visitors, they have come from the Constitutional Review Commission. I think all of us
know is the Chairman of the Constitutional Review Commision. Who is the Chairman.
Crowd: Professor Yash Pal Ghai.
Principal: Professor Yash Pal Ghai, yes. So they have come on behalf of the constitutional
review commission and Professor Ghai is the Chairman and with us here is one of the vice
chairman, vice chairperson, they are three in number and they are very briefly to have one of the
vice chairpersons to address us today along with the other of her colleagues. I’m just going to
give her an opportunity to share what they have and they are actually going round, she will say
more. But this particular time they are on this side of the country. So we have the leader of the
team Abida Ali Aron, she will stand may be abit then I will invite her to introduce the others.
Madam you can stand and____ will see you. Thank you.
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So I really don’t have much to say because the time we have set is for them to share with us what
they have. I don’t think I need to take more time, let me invite Madam, vice chairperson and
Mrs. Abida Ali Aron, vice chairperson Constitutional Review Commission, they are here for the
purposes of the constitutional review commission. Karibuni madam.
Com. Abida Ali: Mr. Principal, the staff, students, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon? We
bring you greetings from the Review Commission. We would have liked to bring our chairman
along with us and the rest of the commissioners but we are having visits throughout the land
provinces, we have therefore divided ourselves into panels to be able to have a series of lectures
if we can call them that, with as many institutions as possible. I will start by introducing you to
the rest of the team this afternoon, like the principal said my name is Abida Ali Aron, with me is
Commissioner Isaac Lenaola, Commissioner will be addressing you shortly and in the team we
have our district coordinators who are our people the grounds who are linked between the
commission and the rest of the citizens and I will start with Mr. Julius Bono from Nandi District.
With us also is Emanuel Satia from Transzoia and a programme officer attached to the secretariat
of the commission. We had hoped to have a bigger number but the other district coordinators
from Rift Valley are engaged in other activities in Eldoret town.
Now the purpose of our visit this afternoon is really to introduce you to the Review Commission
process, I believe being teachers that you are aware of what the review process is all about but
the commission felt that we need to come and dialog with you and see how you can help us and
try to educate the rest of the community. It is felt that in your position, you are ambassadors of
wherever you come from and you may help us deserminate the review process when you go back
home during the holidays. We will be embarking on civic education from the 15 th of December
which is a week away from now but at the same time we believe that if you are able to
understand the process you will be able to assist on the civic educators are down on the ground.
We also wish to answer any questions or clarify any issues that you may wish to understand
further regarding the process. I’m doing so though introduce the asked question stages and
functions of the review commission, we will give you a historical background and we will also
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talk to you about the difference or things of the commission and hopefully we shall give to you
again to see whether we can have some civic education with you to enable you understand the
issues that all of us need to discuss in order for us to come up with a constitution that we all own
as Kenyans and that we hope can be able to serve this nation during our lifetimes and as you
people take leadership in the near future.
So to begin with, I think I will address you, I will give you an address on the history behind the
review process, give you the objects and purpose of the process and my colleague Lenaola will
take you to the organs and functions of the different organs including the functions of the
commission. With this country has had the intention of reviewing the supreme law that is the
constitution for quite a while now may be dating back to 10 years ago and in 1997 the state felt
the need to enact a law that will govern the process of constitution making and enact of
parliament through the office of the Attorney General enacted along known as ‘The Kenya
Constitutional Review Act’ Chapter 3A of the laws of Kenya. Once that law is enacted, a
number of institutions together with your positions felt that they were not consulted and that the
people of Kenya had not been consulted directly other than through the members of parliament
and it was felt that the constitution being the supreme law, it is very important to have the import
of impossible every Kenyan in deciding the destiny of this country because the constitution being
the final law then decides how the citizens are governed. The government gave into this demand
in 1998 and again through the Attorney General requested civil society which includes religious
organizations, Non Governmental Organizations and of course the opposition to dialogue to
enable the state come up with another amendment to the bill that will suit everyone; and the
series of discussions were held in Nairobi beginning with what is known as the Safari Park
discussions where about over a hundred institutions from different parts of the country were
involved and from there the Attorney General identified a number of institutions popularly
termed as the stakeholders who had a series of discussions in Safari Park and thereafter the 1998
amendment was done to the Constitution Review Act. At that point civil society was required to
appoint twelve commissioners to the process because the Act have come up with the 25 slots for
commissioners made then reviewing the Kenya constitution.
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The political parties were collectively allocated 13 seats that it came to the allocation of seats,
there was a stalemate because all the political parties were not able to agree on the number of
seats that they were each allocated, and there was a stalemate and at that point KANU and DP
and a number of stakeholders decided to go back to parliament to try and resolve the stalemates.
A group of stakeholders mainly comprising of religious leaders, civil society and a number of
opposition politicians formed what became to be known as the Ufungamano initiative and they
came up with a number of 20 commissioners who were to have a _______ with review process.
On the other hand, the parliament came out with a committee which is known as the
parliamentary select committee that invited views from across section of Kenyans and decided
after collection of views that they would interview and select commissioners who then undertake
the process and they settled for 15 commissioners and the Act was then amended accordingly to
have only 15 commissioners and the 15 commissioners were appointed and they took oath in
November 2000, Professor Yash Pal Ghai who lectures in a university in Hongkong was invited
to be the chairperson of that review commission. While the 14 commissioners took oath of
office, Professor Ghai felt that the destiny of this country lies in having one review process and
not two; so he opted not to take his oath but to embark on time to bring the two commissions
together and at that point and time a series of discussions were held between the parliamentary
select committee and the Ufungamano initiative and for a period of 6 months Professor Ghai did
what one would call shuttle diplomacy between one group and the other and eventually an
argument was arrived at.
The 1998 Act was amended to incorporate all the necessary
amendments that would suit to either, we don’t have a stalemate and we take on board the group
that was to come from the Ufungamano initiative and at that point the amendments were done
and the act of parliament that governs the review process in the 2001 review commission act.
So at the moment the commission comprises of 29 numbers drawing from each of the two
commissions; we have two ex-official members, that is the Attorney General of the country who
seats in the commission and the secretary of the commission who was recently appointed. So
having merged the two commissions from mid June this year, we have embarked on the review
process. We went to the provinces, we have consulted widely, we are in the process of starting
civic education and it was felt at this point and time that we need to come and speak to students
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and institutions of higher learning and we felt that being in this part of the country that we should
talk to you before we go back to the headquarters.
Now what are the purpose and the objects of the review process?
I’m sure from history, you
have learnt that the current constitution was inherited at the independence time; we have had
about 30 amendments, also they have turned them down for one reason or the other but at the
time of independence, very few Kenyans were involved in negotiating the independence
constitutions. Many Kenyans were not involved and the ___ castle document which we inherited
in 1963 was really a negotiated document that was put in place to ensure that we have
independence but ideally speaking we should have amended that document to suit the
circumstances of Kenyans because a constitution ordinarily should reflect the aspirations, quotes
and wishes of the citizens of any country. So this is really the first time of the history of Kenya
that the ordinary people yourselves included are being consulted in deciding the destiny of this
country and our reaching you today is that at least please take the opportunity, try to learn the
constitution, try to see what the issues are and please contribute as much as possible because it is
you the young people who are really going to be affected by the constitution that we are in the
process of reviewing. The rest of us may not need too long to enjoy the fruits of that constitution
and if I may get back to the objection purpose, one of them is that this review is being done to
guarantee peace in national unity and the integrity and the well-being of the Kenyan people. We
are also trying to see whether we can come up with a free and democratic system of government
that ensures good governance, constitutionalism, the rule of law, human rights, and gender
equity. We have yes a democratic system of government but it is for us as Kenyans to decide
whether they want to incline on the system of government we have. We also need to enshrine a
constitutional culture in this country because the reality is that we do not have, because if we had
it the most of the problems that we have in this country would not be there. We will be able to
torolate each other, we will be able to listen to the divergent views that each one of us has
without having to result to some of the unconstitutional ways that one is talking about. We
would have as citizens, take always our obligations because as citizens we demand for wealth
from the state but we are not ready to meet our obligations.
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The issue of gender quality would also be taken into account, I can see you have a number of
ladies here but that reflection is not there in a lot of national institutions.
We also have to look at the different organs of state, i.e. the judiciary, the court of law, we have
to look at the legislature, that is parliament and the executive arm, the state and see how we are
going to demarcate their responsibility so that the state does not interfere with the judiciary, the
judiciary does not interfere with the legislature, see whether we can put better checks and
balances and also see whether we need other institutions of government other than those three.
We also need to see how the people can participate in governance through free and fair elections.
Often times we hear people say that elections are not free and fair. We want to see whether we
can improve on the electoral system so that such complains become a thing of the past. We also
want to see whether we require a devolution of power from the centre to the local authorities and
how these power can be exercised and that’s why lately we hear our representatives in
parliament talk about majimbo and unitary system. It is really up to you as Kenyans to decide
and to tell us what you think is best for this country. Are you happy with what we have? If not,
how do we devolve power so that power is not concentrated in Nairobi?
We also have to see how as Kenyans we can respect ethnic and regional diversity, respect
cultural and communal ways and activities and be able to work together as people with one
destiny as citizens of this country.
We also have to see how we can devolve and share the natural resources of this country to ensure
that every Kenyan has basic needs so that a person in North Eastern, a person in Turkana is able
to enjoy facilities such as health, school, food, shelter like a person in Central Province or Rift
Valley. We also want to see how we can promote and facilitate regionalism and international
corporation.
And the other thing is how we can strengthen national integration and unity, see how we can
torolate each other and have a conducive atmosphere where we can free exchange our ideas
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without having to fight; and also how the ordinary citizen can assist in participation and
management of public affairs.
Last but not least we will want to see how as Kenyans we can be able to have a brochure that can
enable us resolve national issues the way of consensus. We don’t want to fight, we can dialogue,
we can be able to disagree and at the end of the day we can put our personal differences, that
affiliations, religious differences, tribal differences and arrive at a consensus that puts our
country at the forefront. So those are the reasons that led to the review process.
Now before I hand over to my colleague, we want to let you know that at every stage of the
review process, we would be undertaking civic education, we know that you are very learned but
we may at different stages visit you, not necessarily in college but in your various districts to
truly and relate to you the issues that we would like you to address because to a number of
people the issues is really presidential power but there are many many more issues that relate to
our lives as Kenyans and we want to bring them to the front so that we can all be able to discuss
them.
We will also have all our hearings in public where your views can be heard by the other people.
We are going to have a documentation centre where we will put tape recorders, we will have
video cassettes, we will have hand copies of views that have been given by other Kenyans so that
you can be able to see and compare the views that have been given elsewhere; But that’s not
withstanding, if for any reason one feels that they do not want to give their views in public or to
the discretion of the commission, we may be able to hear views in camera or privately.
There is also the issue of time frame, we are hoping that we will finish this exercise before
September 2002; its really a ____, a wish for us because we have just began our work 6 months
ago and we are hoping that we shall be guided by Kenyans, you included and the way forward
should we be unable to conclude this work by 2002. The Constitution of Kenya Review
Commission Act just give us an opportunity to ask for extention of time but this all depends of
the wishes of the people. We do not intend to give a hurried document but at the same time this
exercise is very expensive to the country and we know that Kenyans would like to see a change
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in terms of the structures and the laws that govern this country. We shall be leaving copies of the
relevant documents, our curriculum was launched one week ago. We will leave a copy with your
principal, we will also leave a copy of the act that governs this process, a copy of the regulations,
so that this can be kept in your library and we will send more copies at a later stage so that all of
you can be able to make relevant references. I thank you very much and I invite my colleague to
take up from where I have left. Thank you.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: I thank you very much Abida. My role is to address you only, orders of
review and their functions. The orders of the review are as follows:-
1. There is a commission to which Abida now belong.
2. The constituency constitution forum, a committee set up in every constituency to address
issues of the constitution.
3. The national constitutional conference.
4. We have ____
5. We have parliament
6. We have the communication centers.
As Abida has said, the commission has 29 members and has several committees that work within
the commission. The commission is mandated by law and require the Kenyans to do the
following things.
1. We shall conduct and facilitate civic education. Abida explained what civic education
means.
2. The commission must collect and correct the views of the people of Kenya and then ____
constitution and present that constitution to parliament for enactment into law. We shall
hear views from Kenyans and then draft the _____report which will then form the basis
from the constitution.
We are also supposed to carry out research on matters of the constitution and enable Kenyans to
decide the best system of government in the new dispensation. We are also supposed to
recommend the best system regarding the executive, parliament and judiciary and their
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operations to ensure maximum checks and balances and secure independence on those organs of
state.
We are also supposed to examine the various chapters and systems of government
including the federal system and unitary system. Today the debate in Kenya is while we should
go majimbo or should we remain the way we are. We as the commission are mandated by law
to recommend the best chapter for Kenya in the future. We are also supposed to examine and
recommend improvements to the electoral system of Kenya. Often times we are told the system
selections is fraud, there is rigging and so on. We are supposed to recommend the best system to
ensure free and fair elections. We are also supposed to look at the courts and look at the best
structure for the court system. Those of you who know the court structure will know for
example that we have from the magistrates court to the court of appeal. Other countries have a
supreme court above the court of appeal. We are supposed us the commissions to recommend
the best court structure for Kenyans.
We are also supposed as the commission to examine and review the place of local government in
the constitution. Do we have the present system of local government? Do we have a different
devolution system? We are supposed to recommend the best system for Kenyans.
We are also supposed to examine and review the place of property and land rights. So we look at
question of trust land, government land, ____ all those questions of land and property rights. We
are also supposed to examine and review the right to citizenship and recommend improvements
to ensure for example gender equality in the confinement of rights. Today in Kenya we do not
know this but today in Kenya, review of Kenyan man, and you marry a foreign woman, she
becomes a citizen automatically but if you are Kenyan woman and you marry a foreign man it
will take years to have that man of yours to become a citizen in this country. We are supposed to
look at the improvements on that law to ensure this balances. (laughter)
It’s bad. Sorry ladies
if that’s the law.
We are also supposed as a commission to examine and review the rights of the child. Often
times you know that street children and children do not seem to have rights in this country. We
End of side A
You, succession to office and recommend a suitable system to the smooth and ____ on powers to
enact an election. In this country we never had a system where for example we transfer power
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from one president to another. Probably next year that will happen but we as a commission are
supposed to recommend a suitable system of transfer of power from one officer to another, from
one president to another, from one MP to another and so on.
We also are supposed to ensure that we examine and make recommendations on the necessating
of directive principles of state policy.
Today constitution does not tell us for example who
Kenyans are. It only says Kenya is a republic, full stop. It says Kenya side a multi party state,
full stop. It doesn’t say what all that means. It doesn’t say who are Kenyans, it doesn’t say what
makes you different from a Rwandee or a Somalia and so most constitutions in the world today
have principles which direct the policy of a state which indicate what makes you different, are
the Kenyans from a man Iceland or a man in Uganda. We are also supposed to establish and
recommend the principles of public accountability by holders of public or political office. In the
last couple of months, you heard people being arrested for abuse of public office. We are
supposed to recommend and recommendations which will ensure that public office holders are
accountable to that office and to the people of Kenya.
Lastly I regard the commission. He commission is supposed and recommend on any matter
which is connected to the overall objective of review; so at least Kenyans raise a different issue
outside the ones I have just read to you. We are supposed to look into it and recommend that
issue into the new constitution.
Turning now to the constituency front, this is a forum which will be inclusive. It will have
women, it will have youth, it will have people with disability, it will have church leaders, it will
have MPs and councilors. It ___ is basically to be the place at the constituency where people can
debate and discuss issues regarding the constitution.
One of the things we were doing this
morning, (Imanuel) was to meet all the Members of Parliament from this region together with the
district coordinators and then came up with a list which will form the constituency committee for
purpose of debate and discussion of this issue.
Later on is the national conference after we have prepared our report; that conference will seat
and debate that report. The conference will have commissioners, that is ourselves, all members
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of parliament, 3 persons from every district, one of whom must be a woman and the other a
councilor. We must also have one person from registered political parties. We must also have
people from churches, NGOs, many organizations and they will seat and debate that report. If
we decide to amend that report it shall be so. If they decide to adopt the report, it shall be so.
However, if there are issues at the national conference which are contentious (which cannot be
agreed upon) then that issue must be taken to what is called a referendum. A referendum is
basically a yes or nobody, for example, suppose after we do our report and we make
recommendations saying for example let us have a majimbo system of government but the
people of the national conference can’t agree on the majimbo system, then the commission will
now hold a referendum and we shall ask every single Kenyan who can vote to say yes to
majimbo and no to majimbo. If the majority say yes to majimbo, it shall be majimbo.
If
majority say no to majimbo, it shall be no to majimbo. The best example of a referendum I
always like to give was Uganda last year. If you know about the internal politics, Uganda has no
party system, what they have is called a movement, a new party system. President Museveni last
year held a referendum, he had asked all Ugandans who could vote to decide yes to the
movement system or no to the movement system and they voted, a majority voted yes to the
movement system and so Uganda today has no political parties, it has a no party system unlike
Kenya which is a multi party system.
What happens then after the report is finally adopted or the ____ find a mistaken place. That
report is then taken to parliament. Kenyans have been asking us, what is the role of parliament
when the draft report is ready? And the answer is: Parliament can only enact the report without
any amendment; so parliament cannot debate that constitution, it cannot make amendments to it,
it cannot be delete a ___ from it. It is always purely, legally to rubber stamp the document and
then that document shall become the new constitution to govern the lives of Kenyans.
The last organ of the review are the communication centers. We have centers that are placed in
every district where all documents from the commission will be put and for example if you in
Mosoriot present your view to the commission, that document can be circulated among the
Saburu where I come from. You know that somebody in Mosoriot has said the following things
about the constitution. So it’s a place where all the documents will be stored within the district.
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As I wide up, what are the guiding principles of the review process? This process is meant and
supposed to be a Kenyan process, a Kenyan people’s process. So all these organs I have told you
about are supposed to be accountable to the people of Kenya, not to the commission, not my
chairman Professor Ghai, but to the people of Kenya. At the same time the whole process must
faithfully reflect the diversity of Kenyans. As we seat here now, we come from different ethnic
groups, we have different ages, we come from different churches and religious faiths. So we
must take cognitions of the fact that Kenyans are the large society and we must therefore take
into short that diversity when making the constitution.
Further, the review process must be
conducted in a certain manner, not in offices, not in close secret meetings, in open forum such as
this one. Further, the places must be guided by respect for universal place, ____ gender equity
and democracy. And lastly this places and the organs of the review must ensure that the outcome
of the process faithfully reflects the wishes of the people of Kenya. That is why, Abida and I,
we could have sat down in Nairobi and do it in a constitution but that will not be constitution
reflecting the wishes of the people of Kenya. So we must consult Kenyans before writing our
report and that is a right principle regarding this whole process. I thank you for listening to me.
Com. Abida Ali: We now wish to answer any questions or clarifications that you may have to
enable you understand the process further. So we are hoping we will have a lot of participation
from you. This is really like I said to you in many words your process at the end of the day.
Com. Lenaola: Do you think that we did so well you have no question Mwalimu?
Com. Abida Ali: And very bad …
Interjection Com. Lenaola: Or so bad you never understood a thing?
Laughter
Ng’eno: No, the members of the commission, thank you very much for coming to see us over
here. Yesterday I saw some sleek vehicles and I know __________this commission exercise was
too commission is too expensive so there was something in the press about mobile phones for the
commissioners and it was very expensive until later the press was trying to criticize the whole
process. Now I want to ask you commissioners, before you were appointed did you not have
mobile phones? And if you had mobile phones, why do you want some others? (laughter)
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I believe there are vehicles, and if they are here on duty, I’m sure they are going to be paid
allowances for them.
They have to be paid accommodation allowances, the vehicles that are
outside there are so powerful, they may take a lot of fuel and now as a Kenyan is now asking
myself, do we really need a constitutional review review process? If it is going to be this
expensive, then I believe we do not need that. (laughter)
Com. Abida Ali: Thank you, what’s your name please?
Ng’eno: Ngeno,
Com. Abida Ali: Thank you Elijah, and thank you very much for that question. I think It has
been going on through the minds of a lot of other Kenyans other than you. What I could answer
you is two points.
1. that the commission did not buy the vehicles. You can see that those are government
vehicles, they were bought for the commission by the government.
2. Yes we need the vehicles, they are sleek, we have our own vehicles but the task ahead of
us definitely if you know the _____ in this country we require tough vehicles, ____
serviced vehicles to be able to reach every corner of this country. I believe at the end of
this exercise there will be no vehicles left. Where you come from in Rift Valley I don’t
think we would meet up to the grassroots in a vehicle that is not powerful. So we are not
using the vehicles because we wish to, we feel very bad that we use those vehicles and
probably money would have been used to do a better project that is out of necessity. We
had to accept these vehicles from the government. As a commission if we had a wish we
would have requested to be given that money to spend it for instance in civic education
or in financing collection of views.
On the issue of mobile phones my colleague present here and myself are really not on a fault
because we both use mobile phones that we came with from our other private lives attaching
the commission. But what we know is that each commissioner bought their mobile phones,
what you hear from the press may not necessarily be the truth. There was that story that
commissioners own what they bought before they came to the commission.
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On the other hand, a mobile phone in a lot of ways is a necessity and not luxury, for instance
we have our coordinators down on the ground, the system is such that if you apply for a
phone at least from Nairobi where our headquarters are, you will take three months before
you get a land line. I think upcountry the situation is worse than one can think about. We
are moving from constituency to constituency, we need to consult, and I can give you an
example that we have had for the last two days. Commissioners are throughout the country,
as you chat now in Nyanza we know the other commissioners are in Egerton, Kisii Campus,
others are somewhere in Western Kenya in Siriba college are two and everywhere within the
country.
We do find difficulties and there are times we consult. I can assure you for
instance that today our colleagues who were in the other parts of Rift Valley basically in
Nakuru called us and said look here, we are having this problem. What do you think we
should do? And if we were not on mobile I’m sure we would not have communicated. If
for instance our coordinators were not on mobile phones because they cannot get land lines
we would not be here with you today. So most of these things are really necessities, the way
things happen in this country. But we assure you that we as commissioners, yes we are on
salary, most of us were drawn from where we were working before, we have families, we
have a life to live. As much as we sacrifice as we expect to sacrifice for this process, we
have children in school, we have children to feed, colleagues who are men and women have
families. So again making a constitution or sacrificing for a country does not mean that you
sacrifice your family. It is a vocation yes, but it is a job where we have to earn salaries. So
as much as we have said that this is an expensive exercise, let us be hopeful and let us look at
the positive aspects and we are glad that these issue has come up, we take in good faith and
we are ready to clarify other than those negative issues, issues that are relevant to the process.
Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you very much vice chairperson, we have seen actually you have provided
us an opportunity to feel we have only been waiting ____ about you. Yours is a very
important exercise, we appreciate, as Kenyans we make a constitution that will embark
everybody including our _____ who need to have them right or may don’t have some of
______ but that is not the point. The objectives are very favourable at our district, we
appreciate. What is more important is we want you to give us an assurance about the ____
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between the executive and this constitution review process. We are worried, most of the
commissions have been having the ______ , that’s number one.
Number two we want you to assure us that this constitution review process is not linked
about to the election only. Clapping
Com. Abida Ali: May be we should take about 5 questions before we answer.
Speaker: Thank you visitors of the constitution review, you have mentioned number of
problems that you wish to ____ in Kenya.
This reminds me of the African leaders when
they go to united nations, they make good speeches in the united nations, when they return to
their homes, the officers they are ____ suffer, they still live in ____, they take terrible
diseases, they kill their people, yet in the United Nations they prepare wonderful speeches
like the one you have given us today.
(laughter) Our contact left you with the struggle
for____ since the 16th century DC, ___ that disease of Kanu or from this ____ Leaders are
the most _____ in anything so that even if you writing these things and we don’t have leader
we will end up _____ I think to me the previous problems of this country, they have not ____
, is it incidently what come as hopes, ______ we have people like ____ institutions like this
_______ 16th century DC , we have people like Thomas, they wrote all these the important of
leadership. So I think the most important problems that Kenya faces is not all these things
you have said, they will end up in dustbin. (laughter) The most important thing that stands
in present, as a Muslim and as the leaders like what other countries do now. They look for
the best leaders and are honest, they will look for the best leaders that develop and that are
_____ . If you visit any boundary of this country you cannot see a single industry, the laws
are too long that all we have nothing in this country, every month _____ hoping 15 th century
DC ____ will visit. (laughter) So I believe you are making a struggle but when you go by,
just tell them that the Kenyans feel… don’t truck you leaders, you have put us in problems.
(Laughter) I wont speak much because by other colleagues are______ Thank you very
much.
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Speaker: Honourable commissioners, thank you very much for this afternoon, we are called
on you because you are innocent members but there is this institution_____ please feel
welcome and we are very happy to be associated with you.
My first question although my colleague has already mentioned, but I will still ask it; I need
the answer, do you have the kind of ______ do you have some kind of plan schedules and
when exactly do you think that you will finish the review of this constitution? And linked to
that my other question is do this have any _____ from the 2002 elections because every
Kenyans is actually waiting for next year and I wonder whether actually the time you finish
this review has any bearing and elections of next year and I as one of my colleague said, as
you prepare this constitution lets remember our major problem in Kenya is that actually we
are tired of this unequal distribution of resources. You mentioned that actually we are going
to … as one of your objectives, will see how like the _____ between the _______ can be ___
but I really don’t know, are we going to snatch from people? May be as you release have
that in mind. I’m sorry but with all due respect as you are commissioners, I’m sorry about
this but some of them have already been associated even going for ugali from state house.
(laughter) Think about it carefully as you prepare.
Speaker: Thank you the commissioners and also thank you for coming and the people of
Kenya have just abused. Can I be glad to tell you that first of all we should understand, my
place is the problem, but what did you learn to collect from members or the republic of
Kenya who are very ignorant about the constitution. Besides you are asking people to tell
you about what they have never seen, what they have never even come across, like you are
asking us these members, including even members of parliament, some of them are very
ignorant of the constitution and then you say now let us involve them but if you ask them
what is a constitution he might tell you a constitution is what is in their constituency.
(laughter) So the point is, I was wondering why this commission could not have actually
delighted the members so that when you vote them they will get to know what is in the
constitution and what is about to be changed.
Because it looks like at the end and your
views will actually now stand and not views of many people who are very ignorant about the
constitution.
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3. We are talking about reviewing the constitution yes, I have accept we should be with you
but at the same time you have not _______there is no constitution like, are you saying
the constitution which is there encourages some people to grab all the land, including
even the toilets, or they cant even ____ that this constitution the current constitution
encourage that? If it would not have encouraged, now then why do we have this kind of
evils, this kind of sins in our country? And what are you going to do with the review that
the support review constitution? What are you going to do to change the Kenyans?
(laughter) because in writing its very peaceful but if you are _____ the views will remain
to be there. Are you going to give all these things so that we have a new constitution and
_____
4. We as Kenyans, we are really yearning for a lot of change and you commissioners, while
have a democratic space option to express our views but so far ____ for you people to
ask for extension of time, you want to drag your feet so that you get these enormous
allowances (laughter) and beautiful Kenyans go on suffering. So I’m praying very hard
that the devil may not tempt you before elections because of ____. (more laughter)
Thank you.
Com. Lenaola: Thank you also very much, this is a very healthy debate and I think that is the
way it is supposed to be. I said in the beginning, this process must be open and therefore take
this debate as extremely as it was and to yourselves. Let me start with the question of other
commissions and this commission. You must understand that most of the other commissions, the
Njonjo commission, the Akiwumi commission and _____ are the commissions appointed by
presidential decree.
They are not commissions appointed by an act of parliament such as this
commission. We are statutory body, we are a body created by law, we are not a body created by
the president. Let us understand that and there is very big difference between that because then
the communications from this commission, they will not go to the president, recall that. I said it
will go to the national assembly and in the national conference for enactment into a new
constitution. There are not two ways about it. It will not go to a dustbin, it will not go to a shelf
to become dusty, I can assure you that.
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Secondly, you must understand that this act of parliament which created the commission must
___ in the present constitution so that anybody trying to tamper with anything with the review
process will have to get a 2000 majority in parliament and presently that is near impossible
because of the party system in parliament.
So you must understand that this commission is
beyond other small petty leading commissions, the Koech commission education and so on.
You must understand that.
Leadership in this country, I think mwalimu there said (I think you quoted and confuses and
____ very ___) I agree with you. This country likes leadership but how do we address that issue
by having rules and regulations that are so water tight? That no single individual or even regions
can impose their will on the people of Kenya; and that can only be done by having a water tight
constitution, the constitution is the supreme law of the land and unless there is law or
constitution, then anybody can walk here and do what he want to do. Lift up that question, my
colleague asked about the present constitution, does it encourage fair?
Does it encourage
looters? What? I have got to have a question to give you an answer? The present constitution as
Abida said have been amended 38 times since independence; in 38 years, 38 times. The
American constitution on the 1700 have been amended on 12 and the result of the amendment
___ of the constitution is that power having concentrated in the hands of the executive so that
therefore the possibility of one state organ being so powerful can control parliament, can control
judiciary, have opened loopholes, have opened doors and windows where looters and thieves can
walk in and tear the country. So what are you doing in the present constitution? We are trying
to seal all those loopholes, we are trying to close all those windows that have been opened for the
thieves and looters. I said we are supposed to address the question of public accountability by
holders of public office.
What does that mean? It means you must have provision where
penalties are so severe for looters and thieves that they will not even think about stealing a
shilling from public office. That is the work of this constitution; every guard, ___ remember we
said that we must finish this constitution by September next year. The act which created a
commission says we must finish our work by 4th October 2002. As we are concerned in the
commission, we are on programme, we are on schedule. We took an oath of office to ensure we
will do our work within a time given to us. This process is not linked at all to a _____, we have
got no bearing _____ election. Our process is extremely different from the elections system of
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next year, so anybody having any fears that we might link the constitution review process to
elections, these are misguided fears and unfound at the moment.
Lastly, extension of time, what guarantee can we give you that will not drag our feet, that will
not take so much time than need to extend time for there are reasons? I said we are mandated by
our oath of office under the law of this country to ensure we have a constitution by October next
year, that is the best assurance I can give you.
I couldn’t say more because that is a law
impressing a duty honoured and we cannot as a commission ___ the law while we are at the
same time supposed to make the best law for this country. So we can assure you, we shall not
drag our feet; today as we speak commissioners are over the country doing what we are doing
exactly now. We are supposed to work 24 hours, we do, if you look at Professor Ghai ____ you
have seen he is there, the man is overworked, so are we. I’m a very young man of ___ , because
of this process, we are taking these things very very seriously. Thank you very much.
Com. Abida Ali: I just want to add on what my colleague has said about the extension of time.
In as much as we assure you and hope that we will finish our work by 4th October 2002 the act of
parliament that guides those process has made a provision or a ____ in law to allow for extention
of time if the commission finds that the time is not adequate and if I may take you back to the
history of the commission is that the first lot of commissioners were so ______, and in
November 2000 and the time limitation then was two years but because it was found that we
need to have one process for the unity and stability of the country then six months were spent on
negotiations and we started work in July this year. Now the issue here is that do we rush having
lost time to come up with a health document? Because we fear that commissioners are extending
time to earn future ___ or do we consider that the supreme law of this country require adequate
time so that each and every Kenyan has an input. We have to choose between the two. As a
commission we are working very hard but we are only human. We shall reach a time and they
assess the situation, if we can finish our work having visited 210 constituencies and make sure
for instance if we came to this school, that we did not know anyone of you and we finish by
2001, we will be happy to do that.
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The other thing that we want to assure you is that commissioners do not have hefty allowances.
For a lot of us we have lost our jobs to be in the commission, we are not here for the allowances
but as much as we earn, we want to be sure that you will tell us we are happy with the end
product at the end of the day. We will come back to you and provide a time table to fight the
schedule of events, put our heads together and be sure that any extension will be merited. We
have to do that to parliament and we hope that the parliamentarians are going to be objective.
They do not have to say yes. If they think the extension is not merited so the check here is you,
is every Kenyan. If you feel we are dragging our feet please feel free and that is why we are here
today so that we can work together to ensure that this process does not drag. This process is not
hawing and together we will produce a document that will last for generations to come. Now
with that I know there is somebody who wants to speak here but we just don’t want to hear
teachers, can we have students? We want you to own the process as much as your teachers are
owning the process. So, I will allow the gentleman who have stood, after that we would feel as
if our work is half achieved if the students do not speak to us.
Teacher: Thank you very well my commissioners, infact I was going to be hurt if you were to
have left me out.
Mine actually is on the logistics you use in use to everybody. I feel like today
as a person, _____ we are a very busy institution, you just go to the field at around the 11 in the
morning, I did not even have time to reflect as ______ if you ____ lecturing to these students.
Now commissioners money from the ____ like these ones, they are made for personnel, women
are not, I would like if possible you could work on that office at the ____ the aspects this
commissioner mentioned over research. If you introduce for us the forums, so that by the time
you come back with that timetable we are definitely going to ______ with the other Kenyans.
They will start with feed back, we will also come with our own feed back, the members of the
teaching staff, we had ___ aspect to go to the … to catch on ___ will be meeting them there, we
don’t go interrupt before that time and now you have told us they are in Eldoret, may be you
could have read in the place. So we can see more often than not you are not reaching us
although you said you are going to reach everybody, indeed you are not teaching everybody.
And these are the people who could give you the feedback, these are the people who can you can
___ join them, through that feed back we don’t need to write our names, but we can give you
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that very very punctual feed back if they can give us those proforma and then before a couple of
years they could refuse. You will ambit the whole of Kenya within seconds ____.
Com. Lenaola: Let me explain briefly that we need to apologize very very sincerely. We
understand that we ____ corrupt and promise that we shall try and make better ___ next time. __
and we do apologize more sincerely. Regarding documents, we just said that we shall leave the
curriculum, a copy of the act, and ___ documents in the library. Since now that you are asking
and you seek more documents, we shall try and make arrangements to pass as many documents
in your library for research and we appreciate all the points that you are the best enactors to bring
back to that ___ we appreciate that ___. Thank you.
I think we still want a student. Before Mwalimu speaks, can I have a student?
Student: Yes. Thank you very much commissioners, I have some two questions to ask today.
As much as you are struggling you said that you are going to ran out civic education, I think the
major problem that is facing Kenyans now today is the issue of poverty and illiteracy.
Now on the issue of poverty, we have heard that you have organized in a way that we are going
to have civic education at the ground level but in then there is this issue whereby we have some
mamas and other corners who are not educated and they don’t understand anything pertaining in
the constitution as it has been said, then at the same time these people are struggling to get
whatever they will have the day that is they are looking for food to eat, then how are you going
to make it during that particular time you are there within that village to ensure that mama will
not go to look food but you ensure that she has attended the forum?
Second, how are we going to organize these forums in the same issues so that they attend without
fail? If at all you are going to miss these people in the villages, there is a problem whereby you
are saying you are going to organize forums but sometimes its very hard to get that person to
come and attend to your forum whereby there is a very big gathering because some of them will
not ___ what you will be talking about.
So is it possible that you are going to organize
yourselves that you walk from house to house? May be to get those mamas who does not
understand anything?
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Student: Thank you very much commissioners. My question is, is this constitution you are
going to review, is it for all the Kenyans? Because the current constitution some people seem to
be a burden. ____ if somebody steals just a hen, he is taken to the court but a guy have __
people if they stole millions of money they only say ______. (laughter) ____ of the reviewing,
____ anything to attend the education. They are sure about, after the discrepancies the education
act to be made is there. ____ You have said that the constitution cannot support the education,
start _____ and they come up with a commission. We want also the Kenya leadership or is this
guide you _____ we want the education act to be independent. (laughter)
Secondly, this constitution review have not touched anything which is basing the neighbours.
____ The problems with them is the poverty. Now, how is this constitution going to ensure
_____ pastor, educated citizen or the review question they comprehend with improve.
And
because they will look the guiding, we have several people in this industry but they are not
employed. We have very ___ they are not employing. So we must be ___ and the many many
views, the time of Kenyans will improve. Thank you very much.
Student: Thank you very much our visitors, we welcome in Mosoriot. Now I just like to ask
you that, it is one thing to have a nice _____ open going and buy a nice place to ensure and it is
also another teach because it is walks and walks in these students you will look nicely. So with
regard to what we are doing now, it is one thing to have a very affective confusion that really
attract people and people admire and listen to our views, visitors from across and it is also
another thing to put into practice. Now our visitors, I’m asking this action will you be taking in
implementing this said review that this so and in constitution and the second one, in our country
today there is a disease that is eating our culture seriously and this disease is corruption, now I
tend to think that it is very important to quite the disease ___ is when we can now go into other
things. Before we might put our time in making the constitution but it might not work because
End of tape 1
Com. Abida Ali: After collection of views, we intend to launch or we are mandated or required
by law to do a research. We will be designate that report throughout the country for a period of
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two months after which about 600 people or so who was going criticize the difference from
citizens are going to come to the national conference. It is at that point where they will either
adopt the report that they will have satify is a true ____ of the views of Kenyans, they will
amend that report, if you will send your representative. So make sure that you participate in
nominating whoever is coming to the national conference. They will debate, amend or approve
the report. So we ensure that what goes out as a draft report is truly a reflection of the views of
people of this country.
On the issue of Majimbo, the issue of this known, there is a clause, ‘there is need for civic
education as because most of us as Kenyans are ignorant of the current constitution. Most of us
know the issues but the points, the current constitution has not been disseminated. We believe
that we don’t know constitution issues. So the curriculum will then enable each one of us to
understand the independent constitution, the current constitution, constitution of other parts of
the country, civic education will enable you study federalism, majimbo in other words. It will
enable you to study unitary system and any other system in the world. So we do not intend to
seek views until civic education has been conducted. On the other hand we do not wish to spend
a lot of time on civic education because something going round parts of the country having
spoken to you this afternoon, it is quite clear to our mind that you know to some extent the kind
of casual you would like to see in the future. We would wish to speak to people in the language
they best understand. If it is vernacular, we will have our coordinators operate for us to have
translation. We want the only mama in village to speak in the language he understands. It is our
duty as experts in this field to translate their wishes, the alterations, their hope, into constitution
issues and prepare a report.
We also wish to let you know that in a few days time we are going to publicize and make sure
you get copies of constitutional issues that you will look of and address. So we are not going to
collect views at the time when you do not know what to tell us. We are not here for instance
today for collection of views but we have not said don’t give us your views. If you have
anything that you wanted to hear go ahead but when doing that when you are prepared to take
your views officially.
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On the issue of corruption and poverty we share with you your feeling and we shall be
acknowledging in civic education the issue of corruption and poverty. We will collect views we
want to hear how those you think we can address the issue of corruption and poverty in the
country.
Now there was a question or implementation of the new constitution and I will ask other
commission will end at the point where we will hand over a draft bill and a report to parliament.
We will cease being a commission at that time. Now the implementation goes to our neighbours,
goes to us, because for instance if you are a citizen of this country, you are supposed to be law
abiding. If you don’t restrict yourself to the laws of this country, you cannot bring the leaders.
For us, implementation of the new constitution is the duty, not only of our leaders but of us as
Kenyans. So let us hope that the new constitution will go structure and pluralism but we will
save that new constitution that will be able to entrench a culture of constitutionalism and that it
will assist us as Kenyans to do away with property because we will be water minded, assistance
that will see adequate distribution of the resources of this country to every Kenyan.
There was also the issue of education act. The constitution of the highest law in the country will
not tackle each and every problem but with the assistance in place, then the issue of education
would be tackled. So let us see what strategic can put in place that will ensure that the other
laws, the ___ like education act will not be tampered at the wheel of an individual.
Then there was the question of organization of reforms and one of the things that we are doing in
Rift Valley of our college, all over the country, is to establish what we call constituency forums.
We are going to use people in the local communities to help us modernize, to help us more when
it is based in a given community to collect our views. What is best for us to be able to collect
views from women who are in the market places, who are in the river, who are in the forests, we
shall come to that level. If women are available after 6.00, we shall collect their views after this
____. If they are available very early in the morning, commissioners will be there very early in
the morning. We are the servants of the Kenyan people and we shall come down to that level. If
we are told the only time to see students in this campus is at 6.00 a.m., we will be here at 6.00
a.m. And we are not trying to give a good picture of the structures, we are committed to the
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structures and we want you to be our watchdog, if we sleep please shout around so that other
Kenyans can be able to see our work.
We do not wish to call but we assure you of our
commitments to the process.
On the issue of language, we are trying at the moment to make sure that our documents are
translated to begin with in Kiswahili. We are hoping that we will be able to translate them in as
many indigenous languages as possible. And like I mentioned, when we go to the districts, we
shall speak in the language that people of that area understands best. We do not intend to have
any barrier at all to the process. And without noting I was going to the teacher who has been
waiting and then go back to the students for more questions. Thank you.
Teacher: The commissioners or the Kenya Review Commission, the ___ of our reviews. I
heard a list of issues said, about the language, how is a _____. When the commissioners talked
about … that ours is a different commission, its not like the other commissions like the
commissions who like people, and Njonjo and others.
On the ___ created by or act of
parliament and to see the beautiful organs for ___. I also saw that the person who has ___ other
commissions,… this commission will be able to ____ of views which will be given by the act on
parliament, then what do we do? I want to make it scheduled because once they publish ____ by
the act of parliament, now that office should be written _____ by a public commission. If you
will say the problems happening to its economy, wananchi, by public act and here comes again a
question of wealth. We are ___ this commission is different, it is unique, because it is given by
the act parliament, when the function end, or others are also ____ the situation. Thank you.
Com. Abida Ali: Thank you. We wish to clarify and appreciate your concern. My colleague
mentioned to you that this process is meant to be entrenched in the constitution. It will be the
first time that any commission has been entrenched in the constitution. We are hoping that
before Christmas, parliament will have made this commission a picture of the constitution. That
will be a milestone in the history of this country. On the other hand, what we wish to believe is
that this commission has the goodwill of our Kenyans. It has the goodwills of the executive, it
has the goodwill of the legislature. It is a negotiated commission and to be able for instance to
strap this commission, one was really have to the grant to the needs of this country. So we want
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to believe that women will now be a special commission has ____ we believe as commissioners
that the hearts of thousand Kenyans were in the referred process. We do not have man in this
country because Njonjo will be like to question this. We have a lot of women ____ we have
formative, we have the correction and then as it is that we are trying to address all Kenyans, we
believe that the whole of this country, minding this process and the leadership of this country in
the world of ____. This is not a process that was John organized. It is a process that has come to
be you also change within the last ten years. So, one will be hopeful, let us ____ each other and
we also set our hope on you. The constitution of Kenya will be the best and make sure that this
process does not go to the dustbin. Thank you.
Speaker: First of all I thank you for the opportunity to talk to you in the concern of constitution
review. Now the first question I was going to ask may is the said act that by constitution allows
the ___. And if it does it, then, what is what to be incorporated to the Kenyans? Even as
Kenyans we don’t have a choice. Then the second question is whether are you saying that we
are the only or we are a ____ relationship which is written according to the commission on
______ or a different commission that ___ have an interest? Whichever you are _____. Now it
has taken the other ____ and then they will visit whatever has happened to ____. The judicial is
there. Are you going to deploy the wishes of Kenyans or you are going to ____ from the other
___ and then look to the programme? Or rather if the commission fail to give out and __ the
constitution, or part of it? The other question is, for the Kenyans, once they are sure ______
from the executive, the _____ , the ____ will see the ______ which we want for the use. We are
the _____ that the Kenya we are living in or the problems, the problems ________ for one reason
or the other, some people have questions, the problems, and certainly the Kenyans or Lord
willing ________. Now, for that reason, if the problem is the order of the day, how are they
then, _________ that these problems will now ___ give them the present review. ________ the
problems will be with them and _____ or with Kenyans. Wherever or whatever we are going
now, is that Kenyans are suffering. Are they suffering in the way they are but you are the cause
of this. ____ which now is going to be reviewed ____ because all we hear that _______ the act
of the government. Even the problems with the President, _______ Issue. Are we _________
you are the problem because _______. You have now gone into ______ some of the views. Do
you think this ___ will solve the problems? I think there _________.
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Com. Isaac Lenaola: Thank you. I take the question of grabbers and looters and the present
constitution, we had answered it earlier on. Let me not go back to it, I shouldn’t do so. Are we
reviewing the constitution or part of it? We are reviewing the whole constitution. It issues we
will arrange for you earlier on are issues are totally constitutional. _____, so we shall not review
buying the constitution, we shall review the entire constitution. What about the question of the
presidency and the powers of the presidency and so on? I did say there was a brochure that we
are supposed to recognize, to demarcate, initial of the community and then the very active
programme reviewing the executive, the judiciary, the legislature who are to create checks and
balances between them and to ensure accountability of the government and its occupants to the
people of Kenya. So we are to address the issues of the presidency and the powers of the
presidency, the judiciary, we will mark those issues specifically. The ____ we must address.
Student: Welcome back commissioners, our principal, and the people who are here. My main
concern is on two issues:1. Poverty.
2. Education.
I don’t know how you will plan this so that it comes in the review, one, most of our people in
Kenya are poor because of education, they have sold their pieces of land to educate their
children. We pay lots of taxes in Kenya, Is there a way of even ___ those who are more so that
education can be free in Kenya so that the people who are ___ in Kenya does not have to go and
steal to educate the children? Is there a way in which we can eradicate this poverty that is still
clipping in although we claim to be eradicated? Education is very expensive in Kenya today and
only the half will have their children go to school. Those that had pieces of land and have sold
everything are still to pay more and I don’t know how they will manage it. If we have to kill
illiteracy in Kenya, then we have to get lid of this system of paying school fees. Thank you.
Student: Thank you very much the commissioners. Mine are views concerning education, our
education in Kenya and it is based on us as student teacher who are teachers in Mosoriot,
tomorrow teachers. You will find that computer is being introduced (computer study) is being
introduced to the Kenyan school education. Now how are we supposed or how are we expected
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to go and teach computer science and yet here in college we are not introduced to any computers
here in college? The colleges have no computers, we are supposed to go out and may be do our
private studies. So we suggest it is ______ incorporated but the colleges should have now
computers so that the teachers teachers can be _____ to go and _____ also know how to go and
teach worldwide or the one country.
The next point on ____ is on doing practice so (laughter) ____ also it is on education as I say
so, so we are suggesting that by doing our second year, we should do the teaching courses and
you may teach in classes or in the process we should be ______ with law if ______ (laughter).
______ So I’m suggesting that we should be given that in mind as we teach also we act, in ____.
That you very much.
Student: ________ they are becoming a commission and constitution review but in some
assessment _____ as matters of the constitution and review ___. What I would like to know is
about constitution deployment because there is no improvement ______ and the people of ___
are usually ______. That’s a fact. Are you going to give civic education and do _____ on the
review process because ____ people of _____ the general election will participate? Another
question is, Yash Pal Ghai is going to be a lecturer in Hong Kong. That is a position that has
been left in this country.
Student: First of all I ____ everybody. I didn’t have or no question to ask but not _____ I’m
just going to ask one. My question is, suppose you don’t complete your work by September
2002, what will happen? Will you first allow the electoral commission to call for election or will
you ask them to give you more time so that you can complete your work then before you ____?
Com. Isaac Lenaola: Its going to be the last but then you can ……..
Student: Thank you very much the Principal, and the commissioners who have come around.
Now there is this big issue of constitution. This issue of constitution has actually taken so much
powers such that … and what areas, we might end up having babies being named after
constitution to become up with constitution gents. Somebody, now _____ after allowing you
will never question us of our views mine is just a worry when in time you close your eyes and
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may be you see they did it long time, we have very many Kenyans who are _____. Their ____
come to a different _____, for instance earlier on speakers have mentioned poverty, education,
and name them, they are very many. Now seeing a case whereby the government powers that
lies just ____ after the constituency they are called, that this gender representation of may be
very many ______ because when the government is coming up with a constitution than properly
founded them and the powers that are used to this constitution are from the miserable farmers,
peasants, _____ who are ____ and ____ kept theirs, who have suffered at the same time feel are
______, now here we come up with a constitution that can never be understood by my cucu ___,
I don’t know, are we going to help them because when they see ourselves together as Kenyans
and then serve institution that are ____ that is from you actually when you are going to the
village and talk of constitution to somebody have been possibly ____ many problems, by
following studies, the persons you who are here, now you commissioners have ____ to talk to us,
you tell us that, may be you are getting to elect a _____, power ____ to a member of ____ that’s
all. I don’t know, I don’t understand. The position involve very many terms, and very many ___
my level are made to understand. I don’t know how you are going to make, talk to _____ this
constitution and please remember the position of each and every Kenyan, poverty, education etc.
Thank you.
Com. Abida Ali: We are agree with you that very soon children will be found in Katiba but
what our Kenya is and _____ have been wrong with that. Going back to your accusation, like we
said before, probably as one mother, may not be able to use the language that you are using but it
is our last believe, having been able to communicate to the number of people in the grassroot that
literally each Kenyan knows about poverty, you don’t have to teach a grandmother to know that
she is poor. So we want to hear from them and at the same time I thought we have repeated that
the exercise of civic education is ongoing. We hope and believe that at the time we come back
here there will be no more confusion but the time we teach the villages early next year, people
will know what the issues are.
On the issue of poverty and free education, we are hoping that during the review process, we will
discuss the distribution of the resources of this country so that each Kenyan can be able to enjoy
the basics of one. International education is a basic requirement; we are hoping that Kenya being
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a signatory to the international convention, that with three distribution of the resources, we will
make our chance in this country, we are, shall be able to give our children free education. So it
is a hope, us we are here to put our hands together one month. Please tell us what you think we
can do, we are not here to give you our views, we believe that our visit here and the review
process is really a process of Kenyans putting their hands together to come up with a decision
that is good for this country. First of all … other than remove the constitution is to make
recommendation to other sections of the laws of Kenya. We take notes of the fact that you
would like to have quality education, and as parents we would want you to have quality
education, so when you come out to teach our children we know that they are safe in your hands.
It is something that will take to the commission, and hope that that would be communicated to
the relevant bodies for them to take account on that. _____, we want to let you know as we said
before that the other commissioners in North Eastern. There were commissioners in parts of
North Eastern yesterday, there are some there today while the same commissioners in other parts
of North Eastern tomorrow and probably Monday. Trying to constitute together with the MPs
for that area committing over constituency forums. So there was nothing inclusive before, that is
what we are doing at the moment. On the issue of civic education, there are applications for a
126 civic education providers from North Eastern province. There was first the chair principles.
With this visits as a whole commission with North Eastern Province, at the provincial
headquarters we had representatives from all parts of North Eastern and we understand that you
so marginalized, on our way for commissioning, that we will give you as much opportunity you
will call to enable you express your views and your aspirations like the rest of Kenyans. And the
extension of time, I think it has come out again and the extension and probably the way I would
want to tackle it is only that we do not wish to take the review process to the succession issue,
that is not our ___. We do not wish to ____ to the 2002 elections, that do not ______ part of our
mandated. However, y_____ of the fact that, if to this reason we are unable to complete the
exercise October 4th 2002, several issues will arise. The issue of elections and the issue of the
system of government that this country will have after elections. We are allowed to seek for
extension time if we have good reason the parliamentarians see as genuine. We also have
mandate to recommend minimum reforms. We do not wish to address that issue now, it is not
relevant; we want to work hard to see whether we can beat the deadline. Should we feel that we
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cannot finish after assessing the situation, we shall first recommend minimum reforms that are
relevant ____ to the circumstances of this function at the relevant time. And I think that is all for
the questions and we wish to thank you very much for the kind of attendance and the kind of
reception that we received from you, we want to assure you that we will make sure that you have
all the relevant documentation that will enable you understand the review process that will
enable you understand the current constitution and the constitution that will be in place at the
time of independence. We will make sure that you have documentation that will guide you
through watch of governments that Kenya should be talking about so that you can make free
judgments for yourselves. We thank you very much and God bless you. I hand over to the
Principal, thank you. (clapping)
Principal: Madam, the vice chairperson to have the Kenya Constitution Review Commission,
our visitors, I’m sure we have ______ the facts, we are sure actually you have ____ about the
same, about what you want for our nation, what problems we have and I think all of us being
stakeholders and you have assured that that we require our contribution, we do hope that what
we call ____ and that you will come back and then we will meet again.
There will be much
more to share to start together in the way our opinion and even understanding what we feel is
good for our country. From a ___ of note, I just want to say that I want to pay visit to Professor
Yash Pal Ghai for the ____ what you give us as a woman. I think that was very crucial because
when are sure of the mandate, that we will still want to prepare that to _____ together. I want to
comment on that that you have good moods and we feel you were the right person actually, you
have been given that opportunity to ____ or to chair this commission.
The other thing I would want to comment is that in the past there have been reviews, reviews in
the law, in the hearts of our country, some of them have ended up actually creating distortation in
terms of creating disunity in our land indicating people of one ____ parts of our country. I have
in mind something like the review of the constitution in 1992 towards the multi party and as you
talking about reviewing this to realize national implementation and so on, we wan to wish you
the best because it is not taken from the area and if it doesn’t come out well, it can cause more
problems than the problems we have at the moment. So I want to say if we have ___ and among
yourselves, among ourselves ahead of you and you really require a _____ as well and we want
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you to pray that whatever you do you go pass you also to come up with a very good document
which will bring us together and very close to work together and some of these things which we
have ___ are eliminated. We are a national institution and for sure all of us here are represented,
all parts of the country are represented in this institution. Whatever you have heard today from
all of us also based in a national outlook and that you will share your ideas. You bear in mind
that the contributions we have highlighted are reflecting the national outlook. But all the same
you have known the wishes of Kenyans besides Kenyans and the problems which our people
have. I want to thank you for ____ to come to Mosoriot. Actually you have taught me, you have
identified our institution as one of the areas you would visit when you are making ___ in this
place.
I want to say you are welcome again and I want to wish you the best luck _______ as
you go round. I want to give this chance to one of our members of staff, two more students to
express a word of thanks. Finally we shall have a prayer from Mr. Swale then we shall stop
there. Our visitors today we thank you.
Staff (lady):
Our guests today, the vice charperson of the commission, the members
accompanying her, our members of staff, non teaching staff and students good evening? I say
thank you to the commissioners for coming and before I say that let me express a point I wanted
to express that other duties of today in gathering. When does the look of things, _____ express
you have an enormous part ahead of you and prior or ahead in your agenda is a ___ or civic
education? Now I have never understood why this civic education is what you have told us is
this, I do not see why the Church and the MPOs have never been taken seriously what they want
to assist you to give that civic education to the public. (clapping) My opinion is this I tend to
teach your work with you pastors because the church is there with the people everyday and so if
you in-service them, if you give them your pamphlets, you give them your ideas, they will be
able to designate that information faster so that when you come, the public, even the cucu we are
complaining about go to church, even the youth go to church, everybody goes to church, even
those funny characters that do funny things afterwards go to church. (laughter) and they can
really get the information so that when you come to gather the views you would get facts out of
the people faster. Madam, please that is what I wanted to extend in the past, but you could be
having your own reasons.
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Interjection by Com. Abida Ali: By the way we agree with you entirely and if ……. (laughter)
Yah, we wish to answer the views so that she is rest assured that we share your view entirely.
The commission will use not only the churches, but all religious institutions, churches, mosques,
temples, name it. So we are going to use Non Governmental Organizations, they ___ a view that
we should use political parties, we are not to use anybody who wants to impact civic education.
It is the politicians who didn’t want churches and NGOs but the commission is different. We
share with you and we are implementing that as we are speaking now. Thank you.
Staff (lady): Please cheer up, yes. Clapping and laughter.
Thank you very much madam.
Don’t worry about our feelings about your limousines, about your mobiles. (laughter) You
know that is the way life is between they have nots and the don’t haves. (more laughter). Just
proceed with work, it is so happening, a lot has left you. In this time of history, we should be in
those times using those mobiles. Let me take this opportunity to say thank you so much for
coming today, thank you for identifying Mosoriot, please thank Professor Ghai for choosing you,
the lady (laughter) as the Vice Chairlady. (more laughter and clapping). Indeed we would like
professor Ghai as one of those gentlemen in Kenya who have understood the protection of
women. (more cheers and laughter). So let me thank the gentlemen who are accompanying
you for giving you the _____ and the protection you will need. (more laughter) so that you are
rest assured that there are taking good reports to professor that you are doing something good on
his behalf. Thank you madam. Let me also thank you so much. I know deep in your heart you
know the problems of the ladies and you will really argue it out and you will really understand
deeper than the men when they try to explain during your tours of the whole country. Please we
really ask the Lord to give you the insight and to beat the men accompanying you and the men
who will draft the commission (laughter) and the man who will ____ teenager so that it is the
law, that the Lord will use them to give a better hearing to these people called women.
Let me thank the gentlemen accompanying you once again so that they have express this
afternoon, indeed we are ___ but one of them had failed, he comes from Laikipia, you know
Samburu and let me assure you sir that there are some characters here who are saying yes, that is
one of our home. (laughter). So, we always tell them the sky is the limit and will deny they
have seen one of their own from the arid areas, actually participating in making the laws of
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Kenya. For you people from up there, including the ones who are complaining that they are
marginalized, nobody is marginalized indeed. I assure you, I hear our numbers are 26 of them,
were there today, trying to gather their views from those parts that are in North Eastern. I thank
them because they have said the constitution will concern every Kenyan, not one particular
group of Kenyan, particularly the ones who are trying to write the law and think of us. Of late
the Kenyans are irritated abit because the Kenyans who are making the law are thinking of
themselves and so they make the laws that make their lives better. And so that is why the
reaction, the people who are letting out their stress on you, and not that you are the ones that they
were letting it out for you. So don’t take it deep in your heart but it is good that way.
Let me thank our principal for allowing you to come because if you have said more we are busy
as you have seen we have so many ____ you wont understand. Thank you Sir.
Let me thank our members of staff for expressing those views on behalf of those villagers out
there, on behalf of this heads here, the headmasters to be. (laughter). Okay, on behalf of the
principals to be. (more cheers and laughter). Let me also thank our non teaching members of
staff for coming, into this we support one another, they have taken them end of tape 2A
Staff (lady): continues Angusha, (clapping), for the deputy of Pal Ghai, angusha, (clapping),
angusha, (clapping) three times because she is a lady. (laughter). For the best of the ___
because they have really given us a problems of those measures and we check angusha,
(clapping) angusha, (clapping) angusha, (clapping). _______ ( more laughter) Lets____ all
our members of staff ____
angusha, (clapping), for our members of the non teaching staff,
angusha (clapping) Thank you so much. (Cheers).
Interjection (speaker): and for them,
Staff (lady) OO: Okay, for the headmasters and principals, ___ angusha, (lapping and
laughter)) God bless you.
Speaker: Just to remind you please you clear the place and we disperse from here.
So,
otherwise we shall stand all of us then we have a word of prayer.
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Let us pray, Father in the mighty name of our Lord Jesus Christ, we want to thank you this
moment, we want to thank you for our lives Jehovah God. We want to thank you because it was
our right time for us to talk to you. We thank you and you know that Kenyans are in need on
constitution to have a right and just ask you to _______recommend, thank God ___ We pray that
you will guide the whole process _____. We thank you for the commissioners, for the work they
are doing, they have a right to make sure that this country has something good to rely on in
future Jehovah King of Glory. We commit them we______ commit the whole province Jehovah
Lord into your able hands King Glory. We thank you and we ask you Jehovah Lord that when
they will be going back, give them good journey Mighty King of Glory. We pray for ______ in
Jesus name. Amen.
Com. Abida Ali: Thank you very much we are ……. (people disperse).
Page 137 of 182
PUBLIC TALK IN ELDORET , ON 24TH NOVEMBER 2001
Present:
Com. Abida Ali
Com. Alice Yano
Com Isaac Lenaola
Speaker:
………. (inaudible)
Com. Alice Yano:
Mr Gor:
- Chairperson
Hamjamboni. Karibuni.
Kwa sababu tumechelewa kidogo nitaanza moja kwa moja na nitamwalika
mmoja wao anze.
Interjection: Aanza na maombi.
Mr Gor:
Kabla ya hiyo, naomba tupate tufuate taratibu ya maombi na naomba
……. Atufungulie na maombi.
Speaker:
Basi simameni basi, na tuombe. Baba Mwenyezi, muumbe wa nchi na
mbingu, naomba Baba ili utuongoze katika kazi ambaye iko mbele yetu na utupatie hii ili
utuongozwe. Na tuezeshe kazi hii kwa mwenendo nzuri na tunaomba Baba ili utupatie
hekima wale ambao tumekusanyika hapa ili tupate akili ya kuweza kufanya kazi ya leo.
Baba tunaomba kila moja ambaye amesimama hapa muongoze ili apate haki yake ya
kusema vile anavyotaka kwa moyo yake ili tupate Katiba ambaye itaongoza nchi hii,
ambaye itatuongoza na kutusaidia bila kunyanyaza wengine, kila mtu apate haki. Na
kwamba Baba utuongoze na utulinde maana tunakuomba katika jina la Yesu aliye
Mkombozi wetu, Amen.
Mr Gor:
Asante sana Bwana. Kabla Ma-commissioner hawajaanza, nitawaeleza
kwa ufupi taratibu ambao tutafuata.
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Last printed 3/8/2016 5:23:00 AM
Kwanza, Ma-commissioner wataongea, kila mtu ana sehemu yake ya kuongea. Kisha
mimi kama mwakilishi wa ulaya nitawaeleza vile tutaendelea sisi katika wilaya, halafu,
nyinyi wananchi ambao mtakuwa mmesikiza, mtapata nafasi kidogo ya kuliiza maswali
au kutoa maoni yenu ambao mko nao. Hivyo ndiyo taratibu ambaye tutakuwa naye na
ikiwa sasa ni saa sita, tunatarajia kwamba kufikia saa saba na nusu, tutakuwa tumemaliza.
Asante, Commissioners please. Tuongee Kiswahili au kingereza?
Com. Alice Yano:
Ndiyo. Utaratibu yenye tutafuata ni ya kuwa, nitaongea na
Kingereza halafu tupate mwenye atatafsiri kwa Kalenjin na pia mwenye atatafsiri kwa
Kiswahili. Hivo ni kwasababu karatasi yenye tunatumia, ama masomo tuko nayo ya
kuwapatia imeandikwa na Kingereza, na hivyo ndiyo itatusaidia ili tuende na tufanye
kazi yetu haraka, haraka.
Kitu nataka tuelewane ni ya kuwa ni kuwa leo ni siku ya wananchi, sio siku ya
Commissioners. Kazi yetu tukikuja hapa ni kuwaelezea tu taratibu ya kazi yetu na vile
tunataka nyinyi muelewe maneno ya Katiba.
Halafu nyinyi wenyewe mtaifuata na
maswali yenu na maoni yenu. Tumeelewana hapo? Nashukuru sana na tuanze.
Sasa kazi yetu leo tumegawa kwa sehemu nne na hizo sehemu nne tuko na Commissioner
watatu wataongea sehemu tatu halafu Co-ordinator pia ataongea sehemu moja.
Com. Alice Yano:
Translator:
We have Mrs Abida Ali-Aroni.
Tuko pamoja na Mrs Abida Ali-Aroni.
Com. Alice Yano:
Tumeelewana hapo?
Nitaongea halafu nipatie Bw Abdul afanye summarizing.
We have Mrs Abida Ali-Aroni, she is going to talk about the
historical background of the Act, that is the Constitutional Review Commission’s Act.
And then she is also going to talk about the object and purpose of the review. We have
Mr Lenaola. Lenaola will be talking about the functions of the insttutions of the Review
Process. Personally I am going to talk about the organ of the review. And then Mr Gor,
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the District Co-ordinator, will talk about himself as a District Co-ordinator, the office of
the District Co-ordinator, when also he touches on the documentation centers and lastly
he will talk about the Constituency Forum. Thank you.
Com Alice Yano:
Mmekaribishwa nyinyi wote.
Leo tuko na Bi Abida Ali,
commissioner. Atazungumzia mambo kuhusu Katiba yetu vile tunataka ibadilishwe.
Kwa hivyo wako hapa wote na kila mtu ana nafasi yake atakaye zungumzia. Karibuni.
Com. Abida Ali:
Hamjambo siku ya leo. Nitamuomba mwenyeji wetu Bi Alice
Yano kuniruhusu kuzungumza na Kiswahili, halafu ikiwa italazimika kutafsiri kwa lugha
ya Kikalenjin, basi mtu ambaye amekuwa adhamanahia atawazungumzia kwa sababu
katika tafsiri wakati mingi kuna mambo mengi uwa yanapotea na nina hakika kwamba
watu wengi hapa wanaelewa Kiswahili.
Jukumu langu ni kuwazungumzia kuhusu historia ya urekebishaji ya Katiba.
Marekebisho ya Katiba amekuwa ya kuguma sana yapata miaka kumi tangu kuwe na
mambo hayo. Na serikali ilipofika mwaka wa tisini na saba, iliamua kutengeneza sheria
ambayo ingeweza kueleza jinzi Katiba ya nchi hii itakavyorekebishwa. Na kukawa na
upinzani kutoka kwa watu mbali mbali kusema kwamba serikali pekee yake haiwezi
kubadilisha Katiba ya nchi.
Na hapo mkuu wa sheria akawauliza vikundi ambavyo si vya serikali kama vikundi vya
dini, vikundi za wakina mama, vikundi vya watu walemavu na hasa wanasiasa ambao ni
wa upinzani kuweza kutoa maoni yao ili watu wasiseme wamewachwa wakati serikali
imetengeza sheria hiyo. Na tukaitwa mkutano ya pahali panaitwa Bomas of Kenya
kutakatangazwa na vikundi mbali mbali vikajitolea kujilifisha na mazungumzo hayo. Na
baada ya Safari Park kukawa na mikutano, au baada ya Bomas of Kenya, kukawa na
mikutano pahali ambapo paitwa Safari Park.
Kukawishishwa vikundi tofauti na watu kutoka sehemu mbali mbali na ukafanywa tume
ambayo ilikuwa irekebishe hiyo sheria. Ni mnapo mwaka wa tisini na nane, sheria hiyo
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ikarekebishwa na ikasemekana kwamba tutakuwa na tume ya watu 25, vyama vya siasa
vitakeuwa macommissioner 13, vikundi visiovyo za serikali vitakeuwa na commissioner
12. Basi vikundu ambavyo vilikuwa si vya serikali vikakeuwa ma-commissioner 12
lakini vyama vya siasa havikuweza kukubaliana jinsi ya kuchagua ma-commissioner 13.
Na kukawa na mzozo au stalemate, kwa kimombo. Na hapo kukawa na mgawanyiko.
Kuna kikundi ambacho kikajitenga na kuenda katika jumba linaloitwa Ufungamano na
kukawa na kikundi kinajiita Ufungamano Initiative.
Nayo serikali na vikundi vingine vikarudi parliament au Bunge na ukakeuliwa kamati
inaitwa Parliamentary Select Committee (PSC) ambayo ilijaribu kutatua mzozo huu, na
hatimaye wakaamua kwamba njia ambao ni bora zaidi ni kuteua Kamati ya watu 15 na
wakatangaza kwa magazeti watu wakawa wametuma moani, watu tofauti tofauti ili
waweze kuwekwa katika Kamati huo. Na wakaendelea kufanya kazi hiyo na wakateua
Kamati ya watu 15 ambayo ingerekebisha Katiba ya nchi hii.
Upande wa pili, Ufungamano ikawa imesema watakeuwa ma-commissioner 21 ili
kuweza kuchukuwa maoni ya wananchi.
Na wakateuwa Commissioner 21 ambao
walianza kazi na wakatembea katika mikoa tofauti kuanza kuchukua maoni ya wananchi.
Upande wa Bunge, walipokeuwa commissioner 15, 14 wakaapishwa lakini mwenye kiti
wao ambae alikuwa ni Prof Yash Pal Ghai akaamua kwamba hatachukua kiapo cha kazi
lakini akajishulimisha na kuona kama angeweza kuleta pande zote mbili ziwe ni tume
moja. Pengine mtajiuliza ni kwa nini alitaka kufanya hivyo? Wakati wa kurekebisha
Katiba ambao ni sheria kuu nchini, inalazimika kwamba Bunge iwe na kura 75% ili
kuweza kurekebisha chochote katika Katiba. Na ikaonekana wazi kwamba pande zote
mbili haziwezi kupata 75%.
Ufungamano walikuwa na kikundi cha upinzani, na upinzani katika Bunge haina nguvu
ya kutosha. Upande wake serikali haikuweza kupata 75% ikiwa hawakushirikiana na
upinzani. Na pia akafikiria kwamba nchi hii ni kubwa zaidi kuliko haja za kikundi
kimoja cha wananchi. Na akaanzisha kazi ya kuzungumza na pande zote mbili kwa
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sababu ali amini kwamba, umoja wa nchi ni muhimu kuliko vikundi hivyo viwili. Na
kwa muda wa miezi tano kukawa kuna mazungumzo makali sana kule Nairobi kwa
pande zote mbili na hatimae tukakubiliana kwamba kutakuwa na tume ya watu 29, watu
12 wateuliwe, kuongezea wale 15 halafu Mkuu wa Sheria kwa sababu analazimika kukaa
katika tume awe ni wa 28 na katibu wa tume akakuwa Commissioner wa 29. Na mwezi
wa sita mwaka huu, ma-commissioner wengine 12 wakaapishwa na sasa kukawa na tume
moja ambaye itajishuluwisha na kazi ambayo tumeanza kuifanya kwa wakati huu,
Basi, sasa hiyo ndiyo historia fupi. Historia ni ndefu sana lakini mimi nimewaeleza kwa
kifupi. Na ningependa sasa tuangalie madhumuni ya kurekebisha au kwa sababu cha
kurekebisha Katiba ni nini?
Sasa jambo la kwanza, ni kuona jinsi tunaweza kama wananchi wa Kenya kuweka amani
nchini, umoja na kuhifadhi heshima ya nchi yetu. Na pia tukitizama ni jinsi wananchi wa
Kenya wanaweza kuishi maisha yalio bora.
Jambo lingine ni jinsi tunaweza kuwa na umoja, kuwa na democrasia, kuwa na
utamaduni ambao unatuezesha kama wananchi wa Kenya kuheshimu sheria za nchi hii na
jinsi serikali inaweza pia kuheshimu sheria za nchi hii, tukiweka manani haki za
kibinadamu, na tukiangalia misingi itakayo wezesha tuwe na usawa.
Ikiwa ni
mwanamke, mwaume, aliye tajiri au aliye maskini.
Jambo lingine ni pia jinsi tunaweza kugawanyisha sehemu za serikali. Tunasehemu
tofauti, tuna Bunge, tuna serikali kuu, na tuna mahakama. Jee ni jinsi gani ambayo
sehemu hizi tatu za serikali zinaweza kufanya kazi zikiheshimiana bila kuingiliana. Kwa
mfano, ni vipi mahakama inaweza kufanya kazi bila kuingiliwa na kuelezwa jinsi ya
kufanya kazi yao kupitia kwa serikali kuu.
Na jee, sehemu hizi tatu zinatosha au
tungependa kupata sehemu zingine itakaowezesha serikali yetu kuendeshwa kwa njia ilio
bora.
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Jambo lingine ni vipi wananchi wa Kenya wanaweza kuhushishwa katika utawala wa
nchi kupitia uchaguzi ulio wa haki, uchaguzi ulio huru, bila wananchi kuona kwamba
Wabunge wao hawakuchaguliwa kwa njia ilio muhimu. Na ni vipi tunaweza kugawanya
nguvu za serikali kupitia serikali ndogo ikiwezekana.
Jambo lingine ni jinsi tunaweza kukuwa na heshima kwetu sisi wenyewe tukitambua
kwamba tunamakabila mengi nchini, tuna utamaduni mbali mbali, tuna dini mbali mbali
mbali, tuheshimiane na kuheshimu mila na tamaduni za watu mbali mbali na kuishi
tukiwa ni kitu kimoja kama wananchi wa Kenya.
Jambo lingine ambalo ni muhimu, ni kuhusu rasilimali ya nchi yetu. Tungeweza vipi
kugawanyisha rasilimali ya nchi ya Kenya ili kila mwananchi katika sehemu yoyote ili
nchini ataweza kupata masakwa ambayo ni lazima kwa kila binadamu. Kwa mfano,
chakula, pahala pa kulala, dawa na elimu. Kwa sababu hayo ni mambo ya kimsingi
katika maisha ya kibinadamu. Pia ni vipi tunaweza kukuza uhusiano wetu na majirani
wetu hapa bara la Africa na uhusiano wetu na nchi ya kigeni au ulimwenguni mzima.
Jambo lingine ni vile ambavyo kama wananchi wa Kenya tunaweza kukaa kama katika
kikao hiki, tukawa tunakikuza maondi tofauti bila kuzozana. Na pia jinsi wananchi wa
kawaida anaweza kuhusishwa na utekelezaji wa mambo ya kiserikali.
Na mwisho, ni jinsi ambavyo tungeweza kama watu wamoja kuzikizana hata ingawa tuna
maoni tofauti na kushuluhisha shida zetu kama wananchi wa Kenya kupitia njia ya kutoa
kauli ambao itatuwezesha kuweka nchi yetu mbele na kuweka fikira zetu za kibanafsi
kando. Asanteni na nitawarudisha kwa Bi Alice Yano kuendelea na mazungumzo ya leo.
Asanteni.
Com. Alice Yano:
Asante sana Bi Abida Ali-Aroni. Sasa tunataka kuangalia sehemu
zitasaidia tume hii ya Katiba kupata kutengeza Katiba ya wananchi wa Kenya. Tuko na
sehemu tano vilivo andikwa katika sheria yetu ya kutumia ili tupate kupata Katiba. Ya
kwanza ni Tume. Bi Aroni amesema ya kuwa Tume hii iko na 29 members. Ni Tume
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huru ingawaje secretariat yake iko Nairobi, lakini sasa tumetengeza documentation
centers na tuko na Co-ordinators wetu kama Gor hapa ya kuwakulisha Tume nchini kote.
Kazi ya Tume ni kujadiliana na wananchi, kupata maoni ya wananchi na kwenda
kuandika maoni ya wananchi ili hayo maoni yapelekwe kwa majadiliano na yaangaliwe
kama itakuwa Katiba. Na sasa tuelewe ya kuwa kazi ya Tume si kuandike Katiba. We
do not have powers to write the Consitution. Kazi ya Tume ni kuzikiza maoni ya
wananchi ili wakatumia hayo maoni kuandika Katiba.
Tuko pia na the Constituency Constitutional Forum, hiyo inaitwa kwa Kiswahili kamati
ya wakilisaji wa Bunge.
Hiyo sehemu ya kutumia ili tupate kuandika Katiba,
itatengezwa katika wakilishaji wa Bunge. Kazi ya hiyo sehemu ni kuita wananchi,
kukutana na wananchi, ili wananchi wapate kujadiliana maneno ya Katiba, na watoe
maoni yao kuhusu Katiba. Hiyo sehemu ni ile sehemu iko chini kuna wananchi. It is the
nearest organ to the people. Ni sehemu yenye wananchi wataitumia kila wakati, iko
karibu na wananchi. Hiyo sehemu ndiyo wananchi watatumia kuangalia maneno yenye
wataweka kwa katiba yao. Hiyo sehemu ndiyo wananchi watajadiliana na kusemezana ili
wapate maneno ya kulete kwa kamati ili itengezwe iwe Katiba.
Tuko pia na The National Constitutional Conference.
National Constitutional
Conference ni mikutano wa kitaifa ya watu wa kuangalia Katiba. Hii mikutano wa
kitaifa wa kuangalia Katiba itakuwa na representatives, ama wakilishaji kutoka sehemu
zote za Kenya. Itakuwa na wamama, itakuwa na wazee, itakuwa na vijana, itakuwa na
walemavu, itakuwa pia na wakilishaji wa Bunge na pia hata sisi kama wanatume
tutakuwa kwa hiyo mikutano.
Kazi ya hiyo mikutano ni kuangalia yale maoni yote yenye tume itakuwa imechukua kwa
watu, na kuandika into a booklet, iwe kitabu, ili waangalie na kujadiliana zaidi. Kusema
hayo maneno ni maneno wananchi wamesema. Itakubalianaje iwe Katiba? Hapo ndiyo
maneno ya debate, watu watakubaliana ama kutokubaliane. Na kwa hapo, kama watu
watakubaliana ya kuwa haya maneno yote yenye wananchi wamesema yatengezwe
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Katiba ndiyo Tume itaandika into a Bill halafu ipelekwe kwa Bunge ili wakaaji wa bunge
watengeze iwe Katiba.
Lakini kama wananchi hawatakubaliana kwa yale maneno yote yenye watu wamesema,
ndiyo tutakuwa na sehemu ingine inaitwa referendum. The referendum is not a must.
Sio lazima tuwe na referendum. Referendum ni kura ya maoni. Kama watu watakuwa
wamekubaliana kwa yale mikutano wa kitaifa wa Katiba yakuwa hii maneno yote
tumekubali lakuwa Katiba ya Kenya, hatutakuwa na haja ya kwenda kwa kura ya maoni.
Lakini kama hawatakubaliana, itabidi watu sasa warudi wapige kura. Ni hii inamaanisha
itakuwa kama kura ya kawaida.
Kila mtu atakubaliwa apige kura kwa ile jambo hawajakubaliana kwa Katiba. Tuseme
jambo kama Majimbo itokee.
Na kwa mikutano ya kitaifa wa kujadiliana Katiba
yakubaliane ya kuwa pengine wanataka Majimbo, ama wanataka Unitary chenye
itafanyika ni yakuwa hayo maneno yatapelekewa watu tena.
Watu watapiga kura
waseme mimi nataka Majimbo, yule mwingine anasema nataka Unitary hivo hivo.
Halafu ikisha malizika pale, itarudishwa tena kwa National Assembly ama kwa
parliament ili itengenezwe iwe Katiba ya Kenya. Asenteni. Namuita Bwana Lenaola
aendelee na majadiliano haya.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: Asante Mrs Yano. Ningependa kuwaeleza kwa kifupi shughuli na
kazi ya Tume ya kerekebisha Katiba. Ya kwanza, ……. Ya Katiba, yaani Commission
iwezekana kwamba ifanye masomo ya raia, yaani Civic Education.
Ya pili, inatakikana ichukue maoni ya wa Kenya na kuziandika kama ripoti ambaye
itakuwa Katiba mpya ya Kenya.
Ya tatu, ni kufanya research kwa mambo yanaohusu Katiba. Ya nne, itaangalia mambo
ya serikali, mambo ya Bunge, mambo ya mahakama, na kuwaambia Wakenya ni njia
gani safi, mambo ya serikali ama Bunge ambao itawafaa watu wa Kenya. Pia itaangalia
mambo ya serikali na kuziangalia kwamba serikali gani ambaye inafaa Wakenya.
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Serikali ya Majimbo, serikali ya Unitary system, ama ni gani itafaa Wakenya kwa muda
ambao inakuja.
Nikiangalia mambo ya election, kura, ni election gani ama kura gani safi, na inafaa
Wakenya kwa mambo inakuja baadaye.
Nikiaangalia mambo ya mahakama, ni
mahakama gani ambaye itawafaa Wakenya? Ni ile tuko nao sasa ama njia nyingine
ambao itafaa Wakenya kuomba mahakama.
Pia itaangalia serikali ya wilaya ndogo, local government.
Ni system gani itafaa
Wakenya katika local government system. Pia itaangalia mambo ya mashamba, mambo
ya rasilimali za nchi na kuambia Wakenya ni mambo gani yanawafaa kwa rasilimali za
nchi na pia mambo ya mashamba.
Itaangalia mambo ya wananchi, yaani citizenship, na uraia wa nchi katika Kenya. Pia
itaangalia haki za watoto; maranyingi tulikuwa ……….. (inaudible) street children na
tunataka kujua haki zao ni vipi katika Katiba mpya.
Mambo ya succession. Baada ya Rais kuacha ofisi, atampa mwingine kiti namna gani?
Itaangalia mambo kama hayo. Pia itaangalia mambo ya serikali mpya katika Kenya hii,
na maoni yametoka kwa Wakenya.
Katika ile mkutano wa wakilishani Bungeni,
Constituency Forum, kazi yake ni mahali ambao watu kaa chini, wana discuss, wana
debate mambo ya Katiba.
Halafu National Conference, hapo ndiyo mahali ambao
Wakenya watakuja kuongea mambo ya Katiba na ku-discuss ile ripoti ya Tume na
kuamua kama hiyo ripoti inawahusu Wakenya, inawafaa Wakenya, halafu wakipitisha
hiyo ripoti, ama Katiba mpya, itapelekwa Bungeni.
Ikifika Bunge, Wabunge hawana nafasi katika sheria, kujaribu kuamend hiyo Katiba.
Kazi yao ni kupitisha Katiba vile Wakenya wamekubali kama itapitishwa. Halafu kama
katika National Conference hakuna mkizano jkwa mambo fulani, basi itaenda kura ya
maoni, yaani referendum.
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Referendum, vile Mrs Yano amesema ni kwamba mahala ambao Wakenya wapiga kura,
kwa mambo ambao watu……. (inaudible) katika National Conference. Example mzuri
ni kama Uganda. Mwaka uliopita, Waganda walifanya kura ya maoni kuhusu kama
kutakuwa na multiparty Uganda ama kutakuwa na movement system, yaani no-party
system. Waganda wakapiga kura, wakasema “yes” kwa movement system ama “no” kwa
movement system.
Na kule ilikuja kwamba, walisema no multiparty uko Uganda.
Ikifika kura ya maoni, Referendum, tutaulizwa maswali kama, kuwe na Majimbo ama
hamna Majimbo.
Mkisema hivo, halafu watasema “yes” to Majimbo ama “no” to
Majimbo. Kura mingi zaidi kama “no” to Majimbo, basi hakuna Majimbo. Wengi wa
Kenya wakisema wanasema wanataka Majimbo, “yes” to Majimbo. Hiyo ndiyo kura ya
maoni ama kura ya referendum.
Ya mwisho ni hii documentation centre. Kituo cha ……. (inaudible) ama ni haraka.
Maana kwa kila wilaya, ambapo tutakuwa na document zote kuhusu Katiba. Halafu
……. (inaudible) akiandika maoni yake hapa Eldoret, nataka kujua kwamba pale
Samburu, pale ninatoka, …… (inaudible) amesema anataka serikali fulani, na pia tujue
amesema ……… Na mimi nitaandika yangu Samburu halafu mengi wajue hapa wilaya
Uasin Gishu kwamba serikali yangu vile mimi napenda ni hivi. Kwa hivyo ni mahali
penye haraka ambapo kila maojo yajulikane katika Kenya nzima.
La mwisho, katika hii kazi ya kutengeneza Katiba, inatakikana kwanba yale ambao
itaandikwa kwa Katiba tunaomba …….. (inaudible) kama commission, ama ya Bunge,
ama ya mtu fulani, mambo itaandikwa katika Katiba ni mambo ya Wakenya. Raia. Sisi
hapa ni wakili, na wengine wengi. Yale tu………………(inaudible) kama mawakili ni
yenu kama wananchi wa Kenya. Kwa hivyo, katika hii kazi ya Katiba, maoni yenu ndiyo
ya maana zaidi, si yetu, si ya Bunge, si ya President, maoni yenu ndiyo ya maana, maana
zaidi kuliko maoni ya watu wengine katika hii kazi. Asanteni kwa kunisikiza.
Mr Gor:
Asanteni sana ma-commissioner. Nafikiri sasa nafasi hii nitachukua mimi
nikiwa mshirikishi wa wilaya niwaeleze kazi yangu, pamoja nyinyi itakuwa nini katika
kutoa maoni wa kurekebisha Katiba? Ofisi ya wilaya itakuwa katika ofisi za County
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Council, hapa Eldoret, Wareng’ County Council, na tunatumaini kwamba kufikia kati
kati ya wiki ijao tutakuwa tumefungwa hiyo ofisi.
Kazi yangu kama District Co-ordinator au Mshirikishi wa Wilaya itakuwa kuhakikisha
kwamba sehemu ambapo wananchi wataleta maoni yao itakuwa sawa, itakuwa tayari na
itafanya kazi. Kazi yangu vile vile itakuwa ni kuwakilisha written documents, yaani
recommendations ya wananchi wa wilaya ufike kwenye tume kule Nairobi, ili tume au
secretariat atume Nairobi niwapatie Ma-commissioner wasome, itengeneze copy zitume
sehemu zingine ili wananchi katika sehemu zingine pia waone maoni ya kutoka Uasin
Gishu iko namna gani.
Kazi yangu pia katika Wilaya ni kuhakikisha kwamba zile kamati za dhehebu ya
wakilisaji Bungeni zinafanya kazi, na kwamba wanatembea katika hiyo constituency au
sehemu ya wakilisaji Bungeni na kuzungumzia watu, na kutayarisha watu watayarishe
maoni yao ili wakati tume watakapo rudi katika kila constituency, wananchi kule
watakuwa tayari na maoni yao. Either wameandika, ama watoe moja kwa moja vile
tunavyozungumza sasa.
Kazi ingine ambao ni jukumu langu katika wilaya, ni kuhakikisha kwamba Civic
Education, ama masomo kwa wananchi waelewe mambo ya katiba yatafanyika kila
sehemu, kila pahali na kwa watu wote. Na kwamba, wenye watakaopewa jukumu la
kusomesha wananchi wanafanya kazi yao jinsi inavyotakikana. Ningependa kuwaeleza
kwamba tume tayari imeshatoa curriculum au sehemu ambazo wananchi wanahitajika
kusomeshwa kuhusu Katiba na iko katika kitabu ambao ninayo hapa.
Hiyo ndiyo
imeandikwa curriculum for Civic Education for Constitutional Review Process in Kenya.
Hiyo ndiyo kitabu ambao imekuwa recommended itumike na wenye atakao pewa kazi ya
kuelimisha wananchi kuhusu mambo ya urekebishajiwa Katiba. Ningependa wananchi
wawa……… (inaudible) pia waelewe ya kwamba siku ya leo ni kama introduction kwa
Tume wa urekebishaji wa Katiba na sio siku ambao wamekuja kirasmi kuchukua maoni
ya Katiba.
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Details ambazo zitachukuliwa ili Katiba mpya iundwe ni kama ifuatavyo; kila
constituency itakuwa na kamati ambaye itazunguka kutayarisha mabaraza ya watu,
mkutano ya kujadili mambo kuhusu Katiba, na jinsi au vile watu katika sehemu hiyo
wangependa mambo tofauti tofauti ya Katiba yarekebishwe. Baadaye, ikifikia mwezi wa
pili mwaka ujao, tume itarudi tena katika wilaya yetu na tutatayarisha vikao au kikao
katika constituency ili wananchi watoe maoni yao pale. Tuna tumaini kwamba kufikia
wakati huo wananchi watakuwa wameongea na wamejitayarisha kutoa maoni. Baada ya
wananchi wa kila constituency kutoa maoni yao, tume itarudi Nairobi na kutayarisha
ripot ambao ni draft constitution halafu warudishe tena kwetu.
Na kutakuwa na copy za kutosha ziende katika kila constituency wananchi wote wasome
hiyo draft na wahakikishe kwamba hiyo draft ina-contain mawazo yote ile walitoa. Na
kama utaona kwamba kuna jambo fulani ambao imekuwa excluded ama haijaandikwa
pale, mtakuwa na nafasi ya kuandika kupitia kwa District Co-ordinator’s office, iende
kwa Tume ambao watarudi tena mara ya pili, katika constituency wapate kuelewa ni
sehemu gani katika hiyo draft constitution ambao wananchi wa hiyo constituency
hawatosheki nao, au wangependa iongezwe. Baada ya hiyo, watarudi tena kuandika draft
report ingine ambao sasa itakwenda kujadiliwa katika National Constitutional
Conference. Ikikubaliwa, basi itapelekwa kwa Attorney General ambaye atatengeneza
bill ya kuenda parliament ifikishe kuwa Katiba ya Kenya, vile umeelezwa na macommissioner, hiyo National Constitutional Quorum, isipokubaliana katika jambo fulani
au majambo fulani katika hiyo draft report, mambo yatarudi kwenu wananchi wa Kenya
wote, mpewe kura ya maoni kuhusu jambo hiyo au vile sehemu ambazo mnaona kwamba
wale national conference hawakukubaliana.
Na kura ya maoni vile umeelezwa itakuwa tu mambo ya “Yes” or “No”. Na mkisha toa
kura ya maoni, basi itarudi tena kwa tume watayarishe kupitia kwa Attorney General
watayarishe bill ambao itakwenda parliament. Basi kufikia hapo, sisi katika sehemu hii
tumemaliza yale tulikuwa tumetayarisha kuwaeleza na nafikiri kwa ruhusa ya tume,
mjitayarishe sasa kutoa maswali au maoni yenu.
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Wale mna maneno line up. Sasa fanya hivi, wacha tusikilizane kama wakaaji wa Eldoret,
sio? Mimi nitachagua mtu atakuja kutoa maoni yake hapa. Atauliza maswali hapa,
hakuna haja ya kupanga laini. Wewe mzee wa kofia kuja. Ninaomba kitu moja, macommissioners ni wafanyi kazi wetu lakini nitawaruhusu kukaa leo. Sawa sawa bwana?
Bwana Mathenge:
Mimi naitwa Mathenge, nafikiri wote mnanijua. Nataka sema hivi,
na nimekuja kuwaambia ma-commissioners hawa. Mnimwelewe vizuri sana. Nikifanya
makosa, muandike Katiba ya kufurahisha watu fulani, ama serikali fulani, siku ile hiyo
serikali itatoka tutaandika ingine immediately. Haitatuchukua hata mwaka mmoja kabla
hatujaandika ingine, maana we are Kenyans by right and by birth.
Ya pili, angalia watu hawa, ona kama kuna Muhindi hapa. Maana mwenye shida ni
hawa, lakini wakati wa tenders, wale wa kwanza ni Wahindi. Wananchi hawa wako na
slippers, ni bahati wewe una viatu. Maskini sana. Hata hizo nguo amevaa nafikiri
amevaa mitumba kwa sababu hakuna njia ingine.
Tuseme hivi, mnaweza kuongeza kwa sababu mkisikia sisi wananchi, tumesikia kuna
kazi kubwa sana iko mbele yetu ya kuandika Katiba hii. Kwa hivyo, next year vile mimi
naone, hakuna uchaguzi. Na mkisikiliza vizuri jana kwa television Prof. Idha Salim
alisema inaonekana wataongezewa muda ili wale watu wako kule Parliament wa
mshahara ya half a million waendelee kukula.
Nataka muone hapo sana wananchi
watukufu. We do not want an extension of Parliament. If you just cannot do it, leave it.
Mzungumze maneno ya kumaliza umaskini wa hawa watu kwanza. Talk about poverty
in this country. Tengenezeni uchumi yetu kwanza, kwa sababu hata nikitaka kupiga kura
ha hata sina gari ya kunifikisha kwa kituo cha kupiga kura, ina maana kweli.
Kwa hivyo, ningelisema hivi, utajiri wa nchi hii ulekezwe kwa Kenya, the Kenyan of
Kenyan origin. Waafrica waangaliwe kwanza, na utatusaidia sana. Na ningesema hivi,
vile vile Rais absolve uwezo ule anaokuongezanga district kila siku hapa na hapa na
hapa. Rais awe na mamlaka ile haibidhi mahali fulani. Na ikiwa serikali hii ni ya
wananchi hawa, kuwe na uwezo wa ………. (inaudible) ziweze kutembea kwa street na
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kukataa serikali. Wawe na uwezo wa kusema wa kusema tunaweza kukataa hii serikali.
Tuwe na uwezo huo kwa sababu sisi ndiyo wenye kazi. Nafikiri sina mengi kwa sababu
– ngoja kidogo, siku ya leo ningeingia ndani, lakini tuko nje na sisi ndiyo tumejenga
nyumba hii, muone kama ina maana.
Mr Gor:
Tumesikia maoni ya huyo jamaa. Haya mzee mwenye tai. Tunataka
maswali aulizwe tume, sio?
Kibiengo Arap Tanui: Mimi nitatoa tu maoni, na ni maoni matatu. Kwanza, Katiba ya
nchi hii iandikwe kwa lugha ile watu wanasikia vizuri sana. Hiyo ndiyo swali ninauliza,
iandikwe kwa lugha ile watu wanasikia. Kabla hatujaanza kuongea juu ya Katiba, ile
mpya, iwe kwanza, the existing one. Tujue Katiba ile kwanza ni gani, ili tunataka
constituency committee yaufike watu wote, vyama vyote, ndiyo tujue ni kina nani
watafanya hiyo kazi.
Tatu, tunataka kujua kwamba watu wameelimishwa, hata hii mambo tunaongea tuongee
kwa lugha ile anasikia vizuri na wakongwe na nani. Na mara nyingine tena, wakuchukua
maoni ya watu, waende kwa constituency na itangazwe kwa radio zote tena na kwa
magazeti yote Kenya ili watu wote wapate nafasi ya kufika.
Ya mwisho, ni kwamba tunataka ile Katiba ile iko saa hizo, ipatikane hata kwa vijiji, na
kwa ile lugha ya mwananchi wa kawaida.
Mr Gor:
Asante sana. Tunataka mtu wa haraka haraka kama huyo.
Kamei Kaluya:
Asante sana. Nafikiri yangu itakuwa moja tu, huyo amemaliza
yote. Commissioners, jina langu ni Kamei Kaluya. Yangu tu ni kuuliza kitu moja, au
kurekebisha kitu moja. Commissioners wametueleza ya kwamba watakuja may be in
February kuchukua maoni ya rahia. Lakini ile kitu inaweka mimi ………….. (inaudible)
ni kwamba, rahia kweli hawaelewi Katiba ile ya kwanza.
Na hata ya sasa yenye
tunaenda andika, rahia wengi hawaelewi. Tayari imechukua five years kujitayarisha
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nyinyi wenyewe na rahia wamekuwa wakingoja nyinyi ……………… (inaudible)
watachunga sheria ni namna gani.
Swali yangu ni kwamba, umetueleza kwamba
mtakuja, kama mtu anasema anataka unitary government au Majimbo, itaenda
referendum. Mimi kwa maoni yangu, hiyo ni kosa kubwa sana. Kwa sababu already
watu hawajui Unitary government ni aina gani, na Majimbo government ni ya aina gani?
Lazima watu kwanza wafundishwe faida na hasara ya Majimbo, na faida na hasara na
Unitary government ndiyo wakitoa maoni yao, wameelewa kwamba hii itanisaidia au
haiwezi kunisaidia.
wakulima.
Ya pili, watu wanataka waape authority kwa serikali, kama
Ukichunga kwa …………..(inaudible) pengine hakuna policy hapo.
Wakulima lazima waelewe policy yao ya wakulima itakuwa ni nini, ndiyo wakikuja
kutoa pendekezo zao, watakuwa wanaelewa kinaga naga wanatoa na hii sheria yao
itaendelea milele na milele, hapana sheria yenye tutafanya five years na tunabadilisha
tena. Asante sana.
Mr Gor:
Wacha wenye ……. (inaudible) aongee.
Sammy Mbugua:
Okay. Asante sana. Nafikiri wengi wananijua town hii. Mimi
naitwa Sam Warui Mbugua, mimi ni mwenyeji hapa. Mimi ningetaka Commissioner
hawa, kuna kitu tumeambiwa kinaitwa District Forum. Wakenya hapa hawajui utaratibu
wa hiyo forum, itachaguliwa vipi? District Forum ya Constituency; wakilishi wa hiyo
District Forum watakuwa akina nani. Tungetaka tuelezewe vizuri kinaga naga itakuwa
namna gani.
Ya pili, na ya mwisho ambaye ni muhimu sana. Ninataka Commissioner huyu, wakati
unapewa ruhusa ya watu kufundishwa utaratibu ya kutengeneza Katiba, isiwe
tunaingiliwa na polisi ati wewe unafanya mkutano ambaye yenye sio ….. Ningetaka mtu
akiwa na utaratibu huko wa kudhumisha watu Katiba itaandikwa namna gani. Ikiwa
kuna pahali Mkenya ataenda kuuliza kibali, ndiyo watu wa Kenya waweze kuelimishwa
vilivyo, bila ……. Zozote.
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Mr Gor:
Asanteni sana. Sasa Bwana ……….
Nitaomba watu wawili tu wa
mwisho baada ya …….
Interjection: Tafadhalini, si ati kuenda nyumbani. Umetupatia maswali kujibu kwanza
halafu tuendelee.
Speaker:
Asante sana.
Commissioners ambao wako hapa, na wananchi ambao
wako eneo hili. Singependa niseme mengi kwa sababu wale wameongea wameguzia yale
maswali ningependa niulize. Lakini ningependa tu niguzie kwa ile utaratibu wamesema
watachagua constituency committee. Nilisikia jana walikutana wakasema ya kwamba
wajumbe ndiyo watapewa jukumu ya kuchagua wale kamati ambaye watasimamia. Sasa
ningependa kuwaeleza hawa kwamba ni vyema labda watu wa constituency nzima
waitwe ndiyo waone ni nani na nani wanastahili kuongoza kwa hizo makamati ndiyo
watu wengine wajione kama wamewekwa kando. Kwa sababu tunataka hiyo ………sasa
ni vyema tuwe na mkutano ya constituency wachague ndiyo watu wote waubishwe.
Neno lingine, tukiguza mambo ya kazi yote vile mmesema ni kazi ambayo inachukua
muda mrefu, na vile inaendelea, mimi naona itahitaji muda ambaye itashinda hata ile
tunasema. Mambo ya civic education, watu wanaenda ulizwa vitu ambao hawajaelezwa
vizuri, sasa ningependelea civic education itangulie mpaka watu wengine wa census
waende wazunguke waone kweli watu wameelewa, wale ambao tutakuja ongea juu yake
ama bado. Kama wameelewa tuseme area hii imeelemika, sasa waaje waulizwe, kuliko
watangulie labda wafike kama watu hawajajua na wanaulizwa vitu ambao wangekuwa
wamefunzwa. Na sehemu zingine nilikuwa nimesikia walikuwa na shida na mambo ya
civic education ni watu wengine wanaambiwa wajifunze. Hiyo ilikuwa shida ambaye
kama watu walivyo funzwa vizuri italete shida kwa mambo ya Katiba.
Ingine ambao ni ya mwisho ni kwamba kazi ikiwa ngumu, ningeongelea tuwe na
……….. (inaudible) uturuhusu kwamba tumalize election kukiko hawa waendelee na
shida mingi na wananchi wanaumia. Ni vyema tuwe minimum changes ambaye inaweza
ituruhusu tuwe na level playing ground. Watu wapewe nafasi kuchagua watu wengine
halafu wamalize hii Katiba baadaye nzuri, kuliko kuharakisha, tuseme election iko karibu
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halafu tuharakishe na kuharibu. Hiyo haitakuwa vyema na pesa mingi imetumika. Mimi
naona ile gari wanatumia hapa, ile gharama na ile pesa yenyewe inatumika ni mingi.
Sasa afadhali tufanye kazi ambao inafaa Wakenya wote. Asante sana.
Mr Gor:
Wacha maswali kwanza ijibiwe kwanza.
Com. Abida Ali-Aroni:
Ningependa kujaribu kujibu maswali yenu. Kuhusu elimu
ya raia, kama nilivyo dhimishwa na mwakilishi Bw. Gor, ni kwamba tumepewa ratiba ya
elimu wa raia ambaye ilichapishwa wiki moja iliopita na kufikia wiki ijao tutaweza kujua
ni watu gani ambao watakuwa wanasomesha hii elimu wa raia. Hatuwezi kuja kuchukua
maoni kabla hamshaelimishwa, ingawa kwa kusema ukweli kulingana na maneno yenye
…….. (inaudible) hapa, hakuna mwananchi wa Kenya asiye jua tabu ya nchi hii. Lakini
tutajaribu kusoma katika taratibu hii Katiba yetu ya wakati huu ili kila mwananchi aelewe
Katiba ya wakati huu ina maneno gani.
Tutatizama Katiba ambayo ilitengezwa wakati wa uhuru kwa sababu huo Katiba
imebadilishwa karibu kila mwaka mara moja. Kwa hivyo kutoka 1963 kufikia wakati
huu, hii Katiba imepigwa viraka vingi, na mngetaka kujua kabla haijapigwa viraka Katiba
ilisema nini. Baadaye tuweze kuangalia tukisema tunataka kubadilisha serikali iwe ni ya
Majimbo, Majimbo ina faida gani?
Kwa hivyo tutakuwa tumesomeshwa, tutakuwa
tumesikiza debate tofauti kutoka sehemu tofauti nchini, ili kila mwananchi awe na
hakika.
Katiba kuu ya wakati huu itatafsiriwa kwa njia ilio rahisi kwa sababu hata mawakili
wenyewe hawaelewi Katiba ya wakati huu.
Imeeleza kwa lugha ambayo pengine
waingereza pekee ndiyo wanaelewa lakini Waafrika sisi bado kizungu cha Queen
hatuelewei. Kwa hivyo tutakuwa tumeelewa kwa njia ilio bora.
Jambo lingine ambalo limesemwa ni kuhusu umaskini. Kama wenzangu alivyo waeleza,
tutajaribu kujadiliana jinsi kama wananchi wa Kenya tutaweza kutafiwa hili neno la
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umaskini. Sasa itakuwa ni juu yenu kama wananchi, baada ya masomo ya raia kutueleza
jinsi gani tutaweza kuondoa umaskini hapa nchini.
Kuna mwenzetu pia ameeleza kuhusu government policy.
Jambo hili ni lazima
tulizungumze sana, ili tuwe na policy au msimamo rasmi katika sector tofauti za uchumi
ya nchi ili wakulima kama nyinyi mnaelewa msimamo wa serikali ni nini katika sector
yenu.
Jambo lingine umezungumzia ni kwamba mngependa mpate nafasi huru kuweza kutoa
maoni yenu. Na nadhania kwa sababu ni kitu ambapo kinahushisha kila Mkenya, sidhani
na tunaomba serikali kutusaidia sana ili mkiwa mnafanya civic education bila propaganda
kwa sababu katika masomo yetu, kama tume, tunaomba watu watakao kuwa
wanatuatumisha katika kusomesha wananchi wasiwe na propaganda.
Wawaelezwe
wenyewe bila kupendelea Unitary au Majimbo, kwa mfano, na nyinyi wenyewe
muangalie faida na umuhimu wa kitu ambacho mtachagua.
Kwa hivyo ikiwa hakuna propaganda nina hakika hakuna mtu atajaribu kuwaingilia na
kuwasambaza. Tumehakikishiwa na ndiyo maana tumekuja hapa leo na hatujaona mtu
yoyote anajaribu kuingilia.
Na nina hakika nitazungumza kwa njia huru, tumalize
mkutano wetu. Tunafikishia na tunataka kuamini kwamba serikali imeona umuhimu ya
prper view ya kurekebisha Katiba ya nchi.
Mwisho, kabla hatujamalizia, tumeelezwa kuhusu constituency committee. Hatujamaliza
kazi hiyo. Kuna guidelines ambazo zimechapishwa lakini kupitia gazetu rasmi la serikali
(Kenya Gazette) ambayo itakuwa na uakilishi wa watu kumi. Kutakuwa na Mbunge,
lakini atakuwa ex-officio. Atakuwa tu pale kuangalia lakini sio kuwalazimisha kufanya
chochote kwa sababu tunasema kwamba hii process ni people driven, tunataka wananchi
wachukue jukumu. Tutakuwa na Co-ordinator, kutakuwa na representative wa County
Council, na kwa sababu kwamba watu hao watatu watakuweko, tupende tusipende hao ni
viongozi ambao tuliwachagua sisi wenyewe. Pengine tulifanya makosa, lakini tuheshimu
institutions ambazo ziko kwa wakati huu. Wakati ukifika, ukiwa na wakukufanyia kazi
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yetu sawa sawa tuwabadilishe. Lakini itakuwa ni kosa kukosa kuwanzisha ma-councilors
wetu na Ma MPs.
Tutakuwa na sehemu saba za wananchi. Kwa hivyo nyinyi mtakuwa na jukumu la
kusema ni watu gani watakuwa katika hiyo committee. Na msiwe na wasi wasi kwa
sababu committee hii haitatoa maoni. Kazi yake ni kujaribu ku-mobilise ama kukusanya
watu kutengeza sehemu ambazo tutakuwa tunakaa katika constituency forum na kuweza
kuchambaza makaratasi ambao tutakuwa nayo na kuweza kuchambaza ripoti. Kwa hivo,
hawata chukua lenu kama wananchi, msiwe na hofu. Tukija katika constituency forum
tutakaa vile tunakaa leo.
MP hawatakuzungmzia au member wa committee
hatazungumza na kupea maoni yake. Mtaweza kukaa mpaka tumemalize, mtu atakaye
kuwa wa mwisho katika sehemu hiyo ya kikao.
Bwana …….(inaudible) amezungumzia kuhusu minimum change. Kwa wakati huu,
bado tuna nafasi ya kuweza kupima kama tutamaliza urekebishaji wa Katiba. Kupitia
October mwaka utakayo kuja, mwaka wa 2002. Kazi yetu haina uhusiano na kura ambao
inakuja siku za usome. Lakini sheria ambayo inatizama kazi hii, imetupa ruhusa wa
kuwakilisha mabadiliko tutakaoona yatakuwa ya haja. Kwa hivyo ikifikia wakati huo,
ikiwa mna manjairi ambaye yametushinda kumaliza kufikia wakati wa October,
tunaweza kupendekeza minimum reforms kupitia mtakayotuambia nyinyi kama
wananchi.
Itakuwa sio jikumu letu lakini ni jikumu lenu.
Asanteni.
Kwa hivyo
tutaendelea na pengine kwa kutaka kuraihisha kazi, tutasikiza mazungumzo yenu kwanza
halafu hatumae, kwa sababu ni siku yenu, tutajibu ikiwa kuna maswali ambao mtakuwa
nao.
Speaker:
(Kalenjin dialect)
Translator:
Mzee amesema kwamba siku ya leo anaomba nyinyi wananchi jitulie kwa
sababu leo ni siku ya kusikiza mambo kutoka kwa ma-commissioner na sio kutoa maoni
yale inatakikana katika Katiba. Ameelewa kwamba leo sio siku ya kupea maoni. Halafu
tena ameuliza kwa nini nchi yetu imekaa kama ambavyo hakuwa ni ile Katiba yenye
tulichukua naye uhuru. Hiyo Katiba ilienda wapi?
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Speaker:
(Kalenjin dialect)
Translator:
Jina langu ni Professor Sirop.
Prof. Sirop:
(Kalenjin dialect)
Translator:
Usishangae ni professor ya nini, ukitaka uje kwangu nitakueleza ni
professor ya nini.
Prof. Sirop:
(Kalenjin dialect)
Translator:
Anasema kwa ma-commissioner anaomba kwamba wakati mtarudi
kuchukua maoni yetu, tafadhali mchukue maoni na mjue kwamba mmenunuliwa
kuandika mambo ingine na mnatudanganya kwamba mnachukua maoni yetu.
Prof. Sirop:
(Kalenjin dialect)
Translator:
Anasema kwamba mkija hapa msifikiri kwamba mkishaongea na watu
katika mjini, mmemaliza kuongea na watu wote, lazima muingie katika vidhongoti vya
kule ma-division, mkute wananchi kule katika mashambani, pia mpate maoni yao.
Prof. Sirop:
(Kalenjin dialect)
Translator:
Mzee pia amefurahia kwamba ile kamati ambaye inahushisha constituency
pamoja na Wabunge, sio kwamba hawa ndiyo watapewa maoni, amefurahia maelezo
kwamba hawa tu ni ku………. Watu na ku-mobilize watu, lakini wananchi ndiyo watatoa
maoni.
Okelo Bin Mawego: Radhi, mimi si mmoja wa waakaji wa hapa lakini nilikuwa
……(inaudible) kwa sababu nilikuja huku shughuli, nikakuta tume hapa. Na mimi kwa
sababu ni mmoja kati ya wachache ya Wakenya ambao wanataka kujua nini inaendelea
nikaona nisikize, na ndiyo maana ndiyo nimekuja hapa. Leo nina swali moja. Na swali
yenyewe ni hii, kutoka kwa hayo ambaye mnayosema. Tume ya kurekebisha Katiba
tangu ilipoanza kazi yake, imekuwa ni kama kwamba wana…….. (inaudible) tu. Nchi ni
kubwa na sehemu ambazo zinaweza kupitika kwa urahisi na ……………….. mpya mpya
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ya usafiri. Lakini jee, ikiwa hii Katiba inalenga, yale maoni ambao wananchi atawapea
kutoka katika pande ya nchi, mtakuwa na jikumu gani kuhakikisha kwamba watu kama
sisi ambao tunatoka katika sehemu ya ndani kabisa kule ….kupita kwa magari ya
kwamba maoni yetu tutatoa kwa njia ilio nzuri, kwa amani. Wawakishie. Hiyo ndiyo
swali, asante sana.
Dr. Chirchir:
Hamjambo wote.
Niko na furaha kuwa hapa kwa sababu
ningependa sana, mimi naitwa Dr Chirchir. Nafanya hapa ……. Kuna jambo moja
ambalo ningependa kuambia watu wa tume hii. Jambo la kwanza ni kwamba lazima wao
wachukulie kazi hii, yaani seriously. Wawe watu wa kuaminika. Na wale watu wa
kuhaminika, kazi yao lazima iwe thabiti.
Nasema hivyo kwa sababu mkutano huu
haukutangazwa. Hatukuwa tunajua kwamba mkutano huu ungekuwa hapa. Wao ambao
wanazungumza leo, ni wenye walikuwa wakitembea, kama mimi. Mimi sikujua huu
mkutano utakuwa hapa. Hilo ni jambo la kwanza.
La pili, ningependa tume hii ipewe ratiba kikamilifu, yaani programme, ambao itaeleza
kwamba wataanza namna hii na watamaliza namna hii. Watakuwa constituency fulani
siku fulani. Watatumia pesa kiazi hii, kwa njia hii. Ile constituency committee ambae
itatengenezwa, wale watu saba, watachaguliwa namna gani? Kusiwe na mafurigano tena
ambao tumekuwa tukiona kila siku. Jinsi watu wanaweza kuchaguliwa. Hawa watu
wasaba watachaguliwa kwa jinsi gani. Kuna hiyo ratiba. Halafu hii curriculum for civic
education, tungependa itambazwe watu wote wajue hii curriculum iko namna gani?
Halafu, jambo la mwisho, hatunge penda commission itumie pesa zetu kama tax payers
kutembea na magari kama haya halafu wanakuja wanajiweka kwa jua kama hii.
Tungependa kuwa kwa hall. Asante sana.
Speaker:
Asante sana. Ma-commissioner wa ……. (inaudible) na raia, ni jambo la
kushagaza sana kwa kuwa wa kwamba nilipokuja town, nikasikia kwamba tuko na
commission ya constitution hapa.
Hata hivyo, nimekuja ili nitoe maoni, ingawaje
nilikuwa nimekataa kwa ajili ya kwamba nilionelea ya kwamba itakuwa jambo la busara
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tuongee tukiwa hatuna forum. Kwa maana vile ninavyo ona, hawa si wakaaji wa Uasin
Gishu ndiyo nikaona ya kwamba ningekataa hapo awali. Lakini sasa nataka niseme tu
jambo mawili.
Nitataka kupitia kwenyu commissioners kusema ya kwamba tungehitaji minimum,
ingewaje umekataa, tungehitaji minimum constitution amended kwa maana tunajua
jambo moja ambalo iko katika nchi hii. Tunajua ya kwamba head of state is above the
law. Na wakati wowote anaweza ku-prorogue Parliament. Na wakati wa uchaguzi
anachukua iwe ni silaha ya mwisho anasema ya kwamba sitatangaza siku ya kufanya
uchaguzi. Kwa hatuna hakika ya kwamba hata constitution iwe itengenezwe ichukue
muda gani, hatujui tutafikia wapi.
Kwa hivyo, kupitia kwenu ningesema kwamba
minimum constitution itengenezwe kabla ya uchaguzi ….. (inaudible) kwa maana tunajua
ya kwamba hiyo inakuwanga ni silaha ya mwisho ya mtu ambae anaongoza sasa.
Pili, na ya mwisho, ningesema ya kwamba katika hii curriculum, nimeona ya kwamba
kama the commission imetengeneza nafikiri wajue nimeona alama ya kwamba ni kama
imewekwa alama ya chama cha Kanu ambaye inaongoza.
Kwa hivyo, haya sitaki
kukosea, hao ni kisiasa. Haya, najua ya kwamba hio ni alama ya Kenya yenu. Lakini
nilikuwa nataka ili watu wasichukue ya kwamba hii kitu kimekuja ni ya chama, nilikuwa
nataka kuwaeleza ya kwamba ni ya Kenya. Haya asante sana.
Mr Gor:
Wananchi, nataka nieleze kwamba wote tutaongea, na ninaomba kama
mtu ametaja jambo msirudue, kwa sababu hawa watu wote tungependa waongee. Na
ukija hapa tafadhali uwe free. Wewe mama pia karibu, mama.
Bw. Peter Njenga:
Majina yangu ni Bwana Peter Njenga. Yale ningetaka kusema leo
ni kwamba wakati tume linaloshughulikia swala la civic education wawe na utaratibu
fulani ambao itafirikisha vyama vya kisiasa maanake Katiba inahusiana na siasa pia. Na
kusema lazima tukuwe na watu watatu ambao wanasimamia District Co-ordination
Committee, na wengine saba ambao watachaguliwa kwa vile hatujatolewa ……..
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(inaudible) ambazo zitatumika kuwachagua hawa watu.
Ni Co-ordinator tu kama
kungewezekana wawe ni wakilishi wa vyama vya kisiasa.
Maneno kufunza civic education, isiwe tu inaelekzwa tu kwa mashirika ambae sio ya
kiserikali NGOs.
Sio lazima wawe wanaelewa tabu za wananchi maanake kuna
mashirika mengine kama ya kanisa, na mashirika mengine sio ya kiserikali ambayo
haiyaielewi Katiba. Kwa hivyo hayako katika nafasi nzuri ya kuvunja Katiba. Ningetaka
vyama vya kisiasa viwe vinapewa wale watu ambvyo vinajua kabisa mambo
wanayaelewa mambo yanao kuhusu Katiba. Wawe wanaelewa wananchi vile vile kwa
njia ambayo ni sahihi kulingana na wale ambayo wanatakikana. Asanteni.
Mr Gor:
Njoo mama.
Grace Wanjiru:
Mimi naitwa Grace Wanjiru.
Sitaweza kuenda huko juu sana
lakini nitazungumza. Ninasikia tukiambiwa tutarekebishiwa sheria za Kenya, na haswa
tukiangalia sheria za Kenya ile wanataka kubadilisha ni ile kitabu …….. (inaudible) na
tukiangalia kabisa kile iko hapa ni ya mawakili. Na shida yetu kwanza Kenya hii yetu,
shida ni mawakili. Shida yetu kubwa ni wakali, wakili …….. (inaudible) kwa mtu,
akulipe pesa nusu ama umelipa nusu, ana haki ya kuandika agreement ingine na
backdate. Sasa umaskini ile wanatuambia ya Kenya, sisi tunataka ya maskini kwanza
yaangaliwe na mahali tumekaa.
Shida ingine yetu hapa ni Ma-magistrate, na ile ingine ni Ma-judge. Ukiwa hauna pesa
na una ukweli, huna right ya kukuwa Kenya hii, uko na shida. Sasa Kenya hii hata
ikibadilishwa Katiba, na Raisi wetu naye, pahali aiko, watu wa chini hatuwezi kumfikia,
kumwambia wakili wananifanya hivi, kwa vile ananifanya namna hii. Nikienda ofisi
ingine unataka kusaidiwa bila pesa huwezi kuingia, Katiba gani utakuja utupatie pesa
ndiyo tuweze kufikia wale wanahitajika. Bila Katiba ikibadilishwa, kama mawakili
hawajafanya kutakana na sheri, hatutakuwa na shida ya Katiba. Jaji angekubali kufanya
kulingana na sheria hatutakuwa na shida ya Katiba. Kwa hivyo shida ni wale wanajua
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sheria na wanataka ibadilishwe. Na hata ukibadilisha kama hawajarekebisha, tuko na
shida. Ni kwa nini hawezi kuzungumuza habari ya watu ya chini.
Mimi nimesikia …….(inaudible) na kama sisi wamama hatujui kingereza na kiswahili,
tunafunzwa Katiba gani? Sisi tunajua Katiba ya kupeleka watoto kwa shule. ……..
(inaudible) mtoto wako kuchukuliwa standard one. Tunaona haana pesa ya mtihani,
mtoto anafanya mtihani na certificate ikae ukilimalisa pesa utapewa. Lakini wakati wa
sasa kama hujalipia mtoto wako ……….. (inaudible) hata kama ni form four, na …….
(inaudible) standard one, hawezi kufanya mtihani. Sasa hiyo mwaka imepotea, mtoto
anakosa uzuri ya shule, anarudi nyuma. Lakini ukimweka kama umelipa haelewana na
yule mwingine, na yule mko naye miaka yote ……….. (inaudible) na hakuna kitu
mtajisaidia kwa sababu haja yao ni pesa. Kwa hivyo mawakili wakifanya swala na sheria
za Kenya, sisi hatuna shida na mambo mingi.
Mr Gor:
I would like to clarify a point. Huyo mama ametaja mambo kuhusu
mawakili, ningependa kurekebisha kwamba Ma-commissioner ambayo wako hapa kweli
profession yao ni wakili. Lakini it is by coincidence kwamba wamekuja upande huu
wakiwa watatu mawakili. Na katika tume ya watu 29, kuna mawakili 14 na wengine ni
15. Na pia Ma-commissioner hawa walichaguliwa kutoka kwa uwengi baada ya uwezo
wao kuangaliwa vizuri …….. (tape ends)
John Kirwa Arap Sogong: ………… (inaudible) kwa wananchi. Tume hii (inaudible).
(inaudible)
ingetangazwa awali jamani.
Ingetangazwa.
Lakini kupita njia, …….
(inaudible) ooh leo kuna meeting ya Katiba. Hata wananchi hawajui njia. Jina langu
inaitwa John Kirwa Arap Songong. Ukijua mimi naitwa ………(inaudible) katiba kamili
ile nilipea Mzee Rugu, hapana mwingine, ni mimi.
Asante sana wananchi, ni hayo tu.
Kinuthia Mbugua:
Mimi kwa jina ninaitwa Kinuthia Mbugua na ni mkaaji wa Eldoret.
Swali langu mimi nataka kupeleka kwa Commissioner, niwaulize ya kwamba, jee ni
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sheria gani tutatumia wakati ya kuchagua wale wataenda kwa national constitution
conference?
Swali ingine mimi nataka kuuliza ni kwa sababu tumesikia chairman Yash Pal Ghai
akipiga kelele kwa magazeti akisema ya kwamba kuna bill inastahili kupelekwa kwa ili
nyinyi muwe na uwezo kamili usiingiliwe na wanasiasa, kwa sababu tumejua Kenya
tumekuwa na commission mingi, Commissioners wengi na hazifanyi kazi, hata wananchi
wakitoa maoni, inaletwa inafichwa. Ili muwe na uwezo wa kufanya mambo yenu bila
kuingiliwa, mimi nauliza namna hii, itakuwaje kwa sababu Bunge sasa karibu ifungwe
mpaka mwezi wa tatu mwaka ujao na bado hiyo bill h aijapelekwa.
Mimi nataka
Wakenya hawa waambiwe mimi nikiwa mmoja wao, itakuwaje kama bill haijapelekwa
sasa ipitishwe kabla Bunge haijafungwa? Swali yangu ni hayo mawili pekee yake.
Speaker:
Thank you very much ……. (inaudible). Mine is very short. The first
one is about crops. We have been selling us (inaudible) some other bodies.
Interjection: Haya ongea Kinandi sasa.
David Kemboi:
Translator:
(Kalenjin dialect)
Anaitwa David Kemboi. Yeye ni mkulima.
Mzee Kemboi:
(Kalenjin dialect)
Translator:
Katiba irekebishe na itiliwe maanani kwamba wakulima wengi
wameumizwa na viombo kama KCC, waliuzwa maziwa hawakulipwa, mafactory ya
miwa hawajalipa hawa, na wenye kununua mahindi pia hawajalipa hawa.
Mzee Kemboi:
(Kalenjin dialect)
Translator:
Sheria iwekwe kwamba mkulima akishauza mazao yake, na ifike
more than 30 days kabla hajalipwa, mwenye kununua apelekwe kortini na alipe gharama
zote pamoja na 10% ya mkulima kwa kuchelewezwa kulipa pesa zake.
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Mzee Kemboi:
(Kalenjin dialect)
Translator:
Sheria iwekwe ku-protect wakulima katika hii mambo ya soko
huru.
Mzee Kemboi:
(Kalenjin dialect)
Translator:
(not translated)
Kanyi:
Asante sana ma-commissioner, co-ordinator wa constitutional review
commission, na wananchi wote kwa jumla. Tumesikia kwamba leo sio siku ya kutoa
maoni, lakini umtupa nafasi la kuweza kutoa maswali au mapendekezo mahali fulani.
Kwa hivyo maswali ama maoni zitakuja kuweka wakati tutakuwa ni kikao kamili ya sisi
kutoa mapendekezo ya kurekebisha Katiba, kwa jina naitwa Kanyi.
Mimi niko na maswali mawili.
Kwanza nataka sema kwamba, wakati wa uhuru
nilikuweko na nikafanya na wakoloni. Na kitu kimoja ambacho nakumbuka kilifanyika
isipokuwa ni hiyo waliita Katiba ambao walienda Lanchaster, kuenda kulete uhuru,
hakuna …… (inaudible) zingine katika sheria za Kenya ilibadilishwa. Zote zilikaa sheria
za kugandamiza Waafrika. Sasa swali yangu kwa ma-commissioner ni hii, jee hii Act
ambao imewapa nyinyi kuangalia mambo ya Katiba pia iliwapa uwezo ya kuangalia
sheria zingine ambao ziliwekwa wakati wa ukoloni kugandamiza watu? Hii ni swali
moja.
Ya pili ambao nataka nijibiwe na ma-commissioner ni hivi, hii kitu wanaita Provincial
Administration ilikuwa ni mechanism au ilikuwa ni sehemu ya serikali cha waingereza ya
kugandamiza Mafrica ili aweze kutawaliwa. Na walipochukua uhuru wakaweka system
hiyo, jee nataka uliza, hii Provincial Administration, na hiyo nisikize ….. (inaudible) wa
commissioner, katika Uingereza, tuko na Ma-chief, na Ma-D.O, na Ma-DC. Tunataka
kujua hio, kwa sababu kama iko, pengine inaweza kuwa ni ……(inaudible) lakini kama
hawana Ma-DC, na Ma-chief, na wazee wa mitaa, kwa nini sisi katika Kenya huru
tunawekewa ile system ya kugandamiza watu.
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Swala la pili, kuna mikataba tunasikia ilifanywa wakati wa ukoloni, ambaye ilizuia sisi
kama Wakenya kutumia rasilimali ambao tuko nayo hapa nchini, lakini rasilimali hiyo
ikaenda kutumika nchi zingine kama Misri. Na hiyo nataka sema kwa mfano ya hii maji
ya bahari ya Lake Victoria ambaye ni rasilimali kubwa sana katika nchi hii ambaye
ingefanya nchi hii kutoa mazao, tungekuwa tunapeleka hata mazao nchi za ng’ambo
kama tungekuwa na uwezo ya kutumia hiyo maji ya bahari kufanya irrigation, na watu
wapate kazi katika mashamba sehemu ambao hakuna, kumekuwa na ukavu.
Halafu ikiwa serikali inaweza ikatoa mfereji ya mafuta kutoka Mombasa mpaka
Kampala, kwa nini haiwezi ikatoa maji kutoka huko ikapeleka sehemu zingine zenye
ukavu ili kuweza ku…. Ile hali ya kilimo. Hiyo ni swali kwamba hiyo ni kataba, kwa
nini iko, na kwa nini isitolewe ili Kenya itumie maji hiyo. Asante sana.
Mr Gor:
Tutaendelea, na naomba tena tuwe as brief as possible na tusirudie yale
wengine wameuliza.
Konri Mabachi:
Kwa majina mimi naitwa Konri Mabachi. Mimi ni secretary wa
Union ya Kenya Local Government Workers.
Asante sana commissioners kwa
kutembelea siku ya leo. Yangu iko very brief, and I have only two points.
Kwanza tusiwe tunafanya kazi ya bure ya kupaka mbwa rangi.
Kama …………
(inaudible) of the constitution of this country, inapea Raisi nguvu ya kuvunja kamati
kama hii na haijabadilishwa, tunataka mwambie sisi, ikifika siku ya mwisho na avunje hii
commission, tutasemaje?
Nyinyi ni watu ambao mmefanya sheria, mngekuwa
mnasukuma kuona kwamba hiyo section imekuwa amended ndiyo mkuwe na uhuru,
ndiyo yale maneno tutazungmusa hapa iwe binding.
Ya pili, niko hapa na barua nilikuwa nimeandikia chairman wa commission nitawapatia.
Magazeti ni mukumu, yeye tarehe 22 akisema kwamba atapea umuhimu sana Law
Society of Kenya ikifika wakati ya kutengeneza maneno ya mahakama. Na sisi tunasema
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hivi, sisi hatuna amani na mawakili wa nchi hii, na ….. (inaudible) kuwapea nafasi
kusimamia kazi hii ati wamekuja kufunza sisi, tutakataa.
Tunataka sisi wenyewe tupate nafasi ya kuona ni wapi wana-abuse, ni watu
wanavunjanga na wana kodi ya kuonyesha kwamba, hata ukienda kortini Jaji anaambia
wewe ati, kwa nini hukuchukua lawyer. Who will pay him? The law is very clear, they
have not said kwamba nikuwe na lawyer. Kwa hivyo, hata umaskini huu mnaona huu,
….. (inaudible) zote za serikali ………(inaudible) wa kuliko ni hii, ni lawyers.
Corruption mingi you will find, ni lawyers, kila kitu ni lawyers, everything ni lawyers.
Kwa hivyo, sisi waweke kando, wakati huu. Tunataka kumenyana na sheria nchi hii
tuona kwamba mwananchi wa kawaida kama huyu ana haki ya kukaa kortini na
kusikizwa na kupewa haki yake. Asante.
Speaker:
Asante sana Commissioner, kwa sababu hata mmetupea sisi watu wa
reserve nafasi ya kutoa maoni yetu. Kweli sisi tumekuja hapa tu shughuli za kawaida za
kuja kununua vitu ya nyumbani. Hatukuwa tumesikia kwa radio, tayari hata yenye
mliweka hii maneno haifiki huko mahali tunatoka. Swali yenye nilikuwa nataka kuuliza
ni kwamba nimesikia viongozi wetu wengine wanasema tufanye minimum change, kuona
kwamba wakati mzee anatoka ndiyo tubadilishe hii Katiba. Mimi nilikuwa nasema,
tupige kura tena tuone kama mzee, sio ati kupiga kura ile ya kuchagua Wabunge na kila
mtu, tuone kama watu wanataka mzee aendelee ama mzee atoke. Ni hiyo tu ndiyo
nilikuwa nataka kusema.
Boniface Mwangi Kairo:
Asante sana Commissioner.
Mimi maswali yangu ni
mawili tu. Kwanza kwa jina ni Boniface Mwangi Kairo, mimi ni mkaaji wa hapa
Eldoret, na tena nilizaliwa hapa. Swali langu ni hii, ningetaka tukubaliwe kama mtu ana
maoni yake, ameandika, hasa yangu nilikuwa nimeandika, ………………. (inaudible)
siku ile ya hapa, na mtu akose nafasi ya kuhakilisha yake pale, anaweza kutuma direct
kwa nyinyi bila kupitia hapa. Hiyo ndiyo nilikuwa nauliza.
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Ya pili, radio Kenya, KBC, ama serikali, kwa commission kufika kwa nyinyi, muulize
KBC ikubalie ma stations zingine kote nchini viwe zikitangaza mambo haya kama
mnaweza kukuja wakati mnaweza kukuja wakati mnaweza kuja kama mji wa Nairobi,
ama mji mingine, kuliko kutumia radio moja tu KBC pekee yake. Saa ingine mtambo
umeanguka, kuna radio zingine kama ukiwa Nairobi zinatumika na hapa hazifiki. Nataka
muulize serikali lakubalie radio zile zingine na televisions zile zingine viwe vikitumika
wakati huu mpaka mue mmeliza kazi yenu. Yangu ni hiyo tu. Asante.
Isaac Kirichwa:
Mimi naitwa Isaac Kirichwa. Niko na maoni mawili ama matatu
hivi. Kwanza sisi tunataka watume ya commission wakati tunatoa maoni, tunataka watu
ya wahakishe hapa isichukuliwe na watu ambao wanatoka nje.
Pili tunataka kwa hii Katiba ambae itabadilishwa, Katiba ambaye italinda afya ya raia. Ya
tatu, tunataka wakati wa kubadilisha hii Katiba, tuwe na sheria ambaye italinda
…..(inaudible)
Mwisho, tusikubaliane na yale ambaye inasemekana Wabunge ndiyo watachagua wale
wanasimamia convention. Kwa sababu, Bunge atachagua watu wake. Tunataka iwekwe
katika advertisement kama wale wengine ili kila mtu a-apply. Hiyo ndiyo maoni yangu.
Philomena:
Nafikiri maoni yangu ni kuwaomba tu kama Commissioner wenye wako
hapa, wakati watakapo anza kuchagua watu wakuelimisha watu,
Interjection: Jina?
Philomena:
Jina naitwa Philomena, kutoka Nandi, na ningependa kuomba Ma-
commissioner wenye wako hapa, wakati watakap anza kuchagua watu wa elimisha watu,
wachukue into consideration gender balance, kwa sababu, ukiona watu wenye wako hapa
wengi, ni wanaume, na wamama wamewachwa nyumbani. Hata hawajui maneno ya
politics ni nini? Wako nyumbani na shida ya watoto, shida ya chakula. Hata hawajui
kitu kulingana na constitution ya Kenya. Asanteni.
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Joseph Kiongo:
Asanteni sana. Kwa majina mimi naitwa Joseph Kiongo. Mimi ni
mkaaji wa hapa. Kwanza mimi ni mzaliwa wa hapa Uasin Gishu. Mimi sina mambo
mingi commissioners. Neno ningetaka kusema ni hivi, sisi hatujui maana ya Katiba,
isipokuwa kuna mambo ingine tunaona ikiendelea ambao sijui kama iliundwa na Katiba
ya nchi hii. Kitu ya kwanza commissioner, maana ya Administration, yaani police ya
utawala, kushirikiana na baraza la manispaa, yaani askari ya baraza, kutunyanyaza, hiyo
Katiba sijui iliundiwa wapi. Kama iliundwa zamani itabadilisha, asanteni.
Ken Wafula: Wacha mimi niwe mtu wa mwisho halafu maswali yajibiwe. Kwanza
kabisa kwa majina najulikana kama Ken Wafula, mchezi wa Advent …….. (inaudible)
Nina maswali mawili kwa ma-commissioner, ambao nafikiria ni lazima wachukuliwe
kwa manani kabisa.
Ya kwanza ni kwamba, tume iko tayari kabisa kuanza kushughulikia mambo ya
kubadilisha Katiba yetu, ama kurekebisha ama kuandika kipya. Na wakati inafanya
hivyo, bado tunaona katka Bunge au afisi ya Bwana Wako, Attorney General imeendelea
kulete sheria zingine mbaya mbaya kama media bill ya kutaka kuhangamiza Wakenya
kabisa.
Wanataka kuwanyima hiyo information kidogo yenye amekuwa akipata,
wanataka kufunga kabisa. Sasa mimi nashindwa, ikiwa Parliament na ofisi na Mr Wako
inaendelea kufanya vitu kama hizo, si hiyo ita-undermine kazi ya commission?
Sasa
commissioners wanafanya nini kuangalia kwamba hawakui undermined?
Ya pili, hizi …. Zenye zimekuwa tangu zamani za kurekebisha sheria - …… law, ni
lazima ziwe suspended, kwa sababu watatengeneza sheria ambao baadaye hawa
commissioners wakishaandika Katiba, unakuja kuwa kinyume ya ile sheria ingine na
tutaendelea na hiyo shida vile yenye tulikuwa nayo. Tutaanza kutengeneza sheria zetu na
Katiba yetu kila mwaka, 2005, Katiba, 2010, hivo hivo. Kwa hivyo tungependa kujua ni
hatua gani commissioners watachukua kwa kuona kwamba Wako na group yake na
wanasiasa katika parliament. Kwa sababu Wabunge ni wakora, na hakuna political
goodwill. Political goodwill yenye commissioners wanategemea saa hii ni ya muda.
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Wakati political interest ya hawa Wabunge itakuwa imefika mahali fulani,
hawa……(inaudible) anything kuhusu commission.
Kwa hivyo, ni hatua gani wanachukua kama za commission kuona kwamba wana
permanent political goodwill kutoka Wakenya, of course Wakenya tuko nao, lakini wale
wachache walio Parliament, na katika afisi ya rais, na katika afisi ya Attorney General.
Kwa sababu uko ndiyo shida iko.
Sasa ningependa watuhakikishie hatuwezi kuja
kusimama kwa jua hapa kila siku tukitoa maoni, halafu baadaye parliament inasema
Wabunge 2/3 wanaamka na kusema tunapinga hiyo Katiba kwa sababu haikufika watu
wetu, na ina kufa hivyo. Ama inapita Bunge, kufika Rais, Rais, mwenye yuko, ama
mwenye atakuwa amekuja, anasema mimi sijui hiyo siwezi weka Presidential assent,
ikae.
Inarudi square one, tungependa hiyo hakikisho kwa sababu hatutaki kufanya
mambo ambao baadaye itakuwa ni aibu kwa Wakenya na kwa vizazi vijazo. Asante.
Daniel Kimatwa:
Asanteni sana ma-commissioner. Mimi naitwa Daniel Kimatwa,
nilikuwa na jambo moja tu nitauliza. Kama tunavyo ona imebaki kama mwaka moja hivi
ili elections zifanywe. Na tunaelekea kwa hiyo election katika ile Katiba ambaye iko.
Sasa iwepo serikali ambao itachaguliwa, tuseme ambae atakuwa Rais, atakuwa
amechuguliwa awe Rais kwa kipindi cha miaka mitano, halafu kazi yenu iishe katika
mwezi kadhaa baada ya hiyo uchaguzi. Halafu mtindo mpya kabisa ambao uko tofauti na
ile ambao tuko nao wakati huu. Nimesikia kuna watu ambao wanataka tukuwe na kama
Waziri Mkuu. Na hata kuna Rais ambae amechaguliwa ambaye anatarajiwa kuelekewa
awe na kipindi cha miaka mitano.
Sasa ikiwa tumepata mtindo, hii ni mfano tu,
tumekuwa na mfumo wa Waziri Mkuu, na kuna Rais ambaye amechaguliwa, itakuwaje
sasa?
Kitu kingine ambaye kinaweza tokea ni kwamba, constituencies zinaweza
ongezwa, ama zingine zikatwe, ama zipunguzwe, na mambo mingi ambao yanaweza
tokea baada ya hiyo Katiba kuandikwa, sasa hii itakuwaje? How will change? Mtachange namna gani kutoka kwa ile mfumo ya zamani iende kwa mfumo mpya?
Halafu mimi ningependekezwa kwamba, kama sisi tunaona kwa nchi yetu,
ningependekeza kwamba kukuwe na ile inaitwa Caretaker government ambaye itakuwa
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na watu ambao kuhusu ……………………. (inaudible) Wakati huo mfumo mpya ambao
itatokea baada ya hii ichunguzi ya Katiba, basi uchaguzi ufanywe na serikali mpya, na
mfumo mpya ichukuwe kutoka wakati huo. Asante sana.
Robert Gilbert:
Commissioners, jina langu naitwa Robert Gilbert Oundo Majanja,
ni mafanyi kazi wa Kenya Consumers Organisation hapa mjini Eldoret. Na swali langu
ya kwanza tu kwa commissioners. How much power do you have to exercise your work?
La pili, ningeomba, vile ungekuja hapa tafadhali katika mzizo hii ambao imekaa katika
25 years unajua, is a sovereign district. Utapatia Bw. Co-ordinator kazi ngumu sana, vile
amesema amechukua watu saba.
Lakini utakuja kujua kwamba wale watu ambao
wamechaguliwa hapa hawatakilisha mataka yetu, mtafanya nini?
Ningependa ofisi hii,
na ma-commissioner wote mahali wako, wasikae tu Nairobi, wakae kwa mikoa ama
district, ili tukuwe na jambo tuwakilishe at grassroot levels, badala ya sisi kuwa in
Nairobi. Nafikiri hayo ni yangu tu. Lakini la mwisho ni hii. Nimesungumza maneno ya
Katiba, ningependa hawa wananchi wote, hapana …….(inaudible) inaitwa Katiba.
Ningeomba leo, kabla kuanza kazi ya Katiba, tunataka kila Mkenya apewe photocopy ya
ile Katiba ya zamani. Ndiyo tukianza kurekebisha, tunajua tunarekebisha kitu gani?
Mr Gor:
Tunapo endelea kuuliza maswali au kutoa maoni, nimeona kwamba tuna
taratibu ambae imejiweka yenyewe, self regulating ambaye watu ambao wanataka kutoa
maoni au kuuliza maswali wanakuja pole pole bila kuweka mkono juu.
Musa Muthoga:
Asante sana ma-comissioner wote. Jina langu ni Musa Muthoga,
mimi mkaaji wa hapa, na ni Mwanakenya halisi. Ningependa kuuliza tu maneno ndogo
tu. Wananchi wamekuwea wakizungumza katika maneno hiyo, ati ikifika wakati wa
uchaguzi, hii commission itaendelea au Bunge itavunjwa.
Na kama itavunjwa,
haitavunjwa, commission itapewa nafasi ya miaka miwili kuendelea mbele, kwa sababu
imepita wakati sasa, na hii commissioner haitakuja kwa siku mbili, itachukua labda
miaka tatu kuenda mbele, itakuwa namna gani? Naweza kujibiwa saa hii ama ningoje
saa ingine kidogo?
Wacha niendelee nimalize.
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Neno lingine, hapa Kenya tuko makabila 42, na tanataka ile Katiba ambayo
itakayotengenezwa hata katiba moja ikitawala mwaka tano, kabila ingine ipewe nafasi
ingine. Hapana kabila hii ikitawala iingie tena safari mbili kwa sababu sisi wananchi
wote tunataka tuonje matunda, 42 tribes, miaka ingine yote. Asante commissioners.
Asante sana Bwana Commissioner na hao wengine. Kwanza, yangu ni kuhusu watu
wote, ile kitu yenye tunatakiwa kama sisi Wakenya. …. Is very unfair; if at all we come
here, we group ourselves here, while people in rural areas are not aware of what is going
on in Kenya. In fact if you go to reserve, and you tell somebody you want to change the
constitution, they cannot tell you what is the Constitution after all.
Sasa ile kitu ningetaka mimi, kama mimi ni moja ya vijana ambao wanajenga ¾ ya nchi
hii, ile Katiba, ikitaka iundwe, ni lazima watu wakutane kwa Divisional headquarters.
Maneno ya town ….. constitution. Ni lazima tuende divisional level, kwa chagua watu
pale, tusikie maoni kuhusu waraia wa ndani, kwa sababu wengi wetu hapa, kama mimi
kila siku kwa magazeti, tunasikia maoni ya watu, lakini watu wa reserve hawajaelimisha.
Ya pili, maneno ya kufungwa kwa sisi kuchagua watu wale wa kamati 7. Nchi kama
hapa kuna ile watu wanakuwanga victimized hata kama mtu angetoa maoni ama aandike
Katiba, ataandika Katiba kwa sababu yeye sio mkwasi ya fulani.
Hiyo kitu sisi
tutakomesha kama sisi waraia wa Kenya. Ikiwa ni namna hiyo, mkipatia jukumu Bunge,
afadhali nyinyi mtuambie tayari Mjumbe amechagua watu yake ni tu kusikia maoni ile ya
porojo, lakini ma….. (inaudible) amechagua watu yake. Sisi hatutaki hiyo.
Ile kitu ya pili, mnasema mtafungua ofisi kule Wareng’ County Council, in fact it would
be unfair. Kwa sababu ya kwanza, hamjaorotoshea sisi ile kanuni ama ile muelekeo sisi
tunataka tukufuatilie ili hata wengine tuchagulie tukue ma-commissioner pale. Hiyo macommissioner tukuwe free and fair.
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Ile kitu inaitwa Katiba, ikiwa mimi ni moja wao, we are one of the community of the
Republic of Kenya. Ile kitu inaitwa conflict of interest shall be the first thing to be
decided in that given area. Sio maneno ya ku-learn kukuja hapa. Unajua if we come to
town here, we are cosmopolitan and you may find ¾ of those people who keep out
constitutional review are outsiders not from the area. Sasa hiyo kitu lazima ipelekwe
reserve huko, watu wenyewe wenyeji waseme ile Katiba wanataka.
Ya mwisho hii maneno naunga yule mzee mwenye alisema hii section 47 lazima
ipelekwe parliament iangaliwe, iamendikiwe ndiyo wenye wana authorize watu wafanye
kitu kwa sababu Kenya ……………….. (inaudible). Yule wasema ile ana uwa watu,
ingine inafanya nini. At long last inavunjwa hata ile majibu ijatolewa. Sasa hata hii
constitution kwa sababu mwaka inayoyoma, next year we are going for election. If at all
you cannot do it before election it is better to tell us we go for elections first halafu next
year we decide how we can take more decisions on the constitutional review. Because
constitutional review ndiyo msingi ya motto wa nchi, sio ati hii ya kufanya juu juu halafu
mwishowe tunafanya Katiba ile inakuja umiza raia. You have to give us a …. Kenya, sio
maneno ingine. Asanteni.
Eng. Tom Murgor: Yangu ningesema thank you the Honourable Commissioners.
What I want to say ni jambo moja ambaye ningependa kusema ni kuhusu. Jina ni Eng
Tom Murgor kutoka Eldoret, nafikiri watu wengi wananifahamu. Ningelipenda kama hii
civic education itakuja, tungelipenda wananchi wajulishwe kuwa Urais can be ceremonial
lakini Bunge inaweza kuwa na Prime Minister. Lakini we only want something. You
can elect a President through electoral college, okay and then you can still choose a Prime
Minister so there is no problem. What I am going to say, mimi ningependa kitu moja, the
sucession ambaye mimi najua watu wengi wangelipenda kujua.
Afadhali tufanye
election ya councillor leo, halafu tufanye tena ya MP, kesho kutwa ikuwa ya President.
We do not have to jam up and hold everything lumpsum.
Kitu ambaye inatumiza tena ni raia kuumizwa kama, why don’t you take tribunal courts,
small local tribunal courts. Kama kijana amepatikana amefanya kitendo fulani inakuwa
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kwa village kuliko aletwe mpaka Eldoret. Ya nini aletwe kutoka …… (inaudible) mpaka
Eldoret. Tuwe na Tribunal Court.
Another thing that I want, to clear this problem that has brought the … hii kitu ambaye
inasema vijana watawale na ……….(inaudible) ningependa ikuwe hivi, let us create an
upper house, wazee wakae kwa Senate. Na kitu ambaye mimi naona, tena tabu ingine ni
kwamba gender discrimination. Unajua wakina mama wamefinyiwa, sheria za Kenya
asiwapei kina mama sheria ya kikamilufu.
Sasa Sheria iwekwe ili akina mama…..
(inaudible) okay. Inadequate, inadequate facility.
Kuna pengine upungufu kwa vitu kama afya, kama education and infrastructure kama
barabara ni mbofu, nini ambaye imelete umaskini. Kuna pengine ukosefu ya kuwa na
kazi. Pengine vijana hawajapata kazi, ndiyo sheria ikuwe vijana wote waandikwe kazi.
Na pengine hapa kuna sheria zingine ambaye ni ya uongo, pengine you have not
addressed this issue, unfair law, and may be compromised this system where somebody
…..(inaudible) publicise and then he goes scotch free. ……….. (inaudible) Attorney
General, sikiliza, the Chief Public Prosecutor and create a Ministry of Justice and
Constitutional Affairs.
Interjection: (inaudible
Eng. Murgor: That is where I am coming to, kwa vile hii ni sheria ingine ngumu, kwa
vile hata ukileta mahindi kutoka nje and iko ingine hapa, that is why I am using
…….(inaudible) there is still market equilibrium by deduction. Or add taxation on
imported goods. You get what I mean. I want to protect the maize people. Prosecute all
that have looted the the economy, retry all the assets, ………(inaudible) their bank
accounts. Return all finances statched in foreign banks to resuscitate the economy.
Thank you very much.
Nafikiri ninashukuru nyinyi na mimi nakwambia
……….(inaudible).
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Martin Okina:
Asante sana. Kwa majina naitwa Martin Okina. Ningependa hii
Katiba ya saa hii kubadilishwa mahali fulani na …… (inaudible) hapa. Hii Katiba ya saa
hizi inaruhusu Wabunge kupigana ndani ya Bunge. Katiba ya saa hii inapatia Bunge
priviledge ya kupigana ndani ya Bunge halafu watu anafukuzwa na speaker. Hiyo ni
mfano mbaya sasa kwa raia sisi ambao wamechagua Wabunge na inatakikana wawe
gentlemen ili wasitende aibu.
Hii Katiba ibadilishwe Wabunge wakipigana ndani ya Bunge wanachukuliwa sheria,
wanapelekwa kortini, wanashtakiwa juu ya kupigana maanake they are not gentlemen.
Mahali pengine hii Katiba mpya hii mnataka kuweka ni kulinda sheria za wafanya kazi.
Unakuta Ma-investors wanakuja hapa Kenya because there is cheap labour. Ingawaje
uchumi mbaya lakini hawa wanaendelea kukuja tu kwa sababu there is cheap labour.
Wanakuja hapa wanajua Wafrica sana sana, halafu malipo ni penny ndogo ndogo tu.
Kwa hivyo Katiba ibadilishwe kulinda wafanyi kazi, mshahara yao iangaliwe sio
kunyanyaza wafanya kazi wanafanya kazi nyingi.
Wanafaida makampuni hawa ma-investors wenye wametoka nje na mshahara wanalipwa
kidogo tu, na uchumi inaendelea kuwa mbaya na hawa wanaendelea tu, sasa faida
inakuwa ya investors na serikali kwa sababu wanaendelea kupata VAT. Hayo ndiyo
maoni yangu manne.
Speaker:
Asante sana Commissioners kuja hapa kututembelea.
Yangu moja ni
maoni na ingine ni swali. Nikianza na upande wa constitutional review ninaomba ya
kwamba hii muda tunaosema ya kwamba inaweza pengine tukaenda uchaguzi kabla
constitution haijamalizika itakuwa ni kama tumeharibu muda na wakati kwa sababu kuna
vitengele zingine ambavyo tunaenda kurekebisha ambavyo kama there is stalemate
ingerekebishwa mapema, tukienda uchaguzini, zingeweza kurekebishwa, lakini sasa
ikiwa tutaenda uchaguzi kabla hatujamaliza, na ipatikane ya kwamba tumerekebisha
mahali fulani ambapo inatakikana mtu fulani awe afikiri nafasi fulani ingeweko au uwa
imedhumiwa.
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Itakuwa tena tutarudia uchaguzi mara ya pili. Hapo mimi naona ya kwamba kama
mtasema ………. (inaudible) tusiendelee na uchaguzi halafu Katiba muende muimalize
baadaye, hiyo ni kama kazi bado itamaliza miaka mitano ambaye tutakuwa tumeharibu tu
bure.
Neno ingine nilifurahia sana ni vile mlivyo sema ya kwamba katika civic education ya
Katiba mtauliza organizations kama kwa mfano Co-operative movement, Consumer
Orgnaisation, that is very good. But ukatupatia ruhusa ya ku-apply, but surpringly tangu
tu-apply mpaka leo na niliona ……….(inaudible) ikisema ya kwamba mambo
yanakaribia uenda ikawa itaanza next week.
There has been no communication,
hatujasiliana. Je, are we to be taken unaware or ni kitu gani kinaendelea? There is no
communication.
Kwa nini basi tulipewa muda ya ku-apply na kufikia leo, hakuna
communication yoyote imefanyika. Yangu ilikuwa ni mawili hayo tu asanteni.
Mr Gor:
Basi tutachukua ya mwisho halafu ma-commissioner watajibu, halafu
William Mutua:
Asante sana wananchi.
Jina langu ni William Mutua.
Nimesimama hapa ili kuwatetea wananchi wenzetu.
Wananchi kusema ile ukweli,
tuseme kuanzia 1963 mpaka wa leo, mshahara ya serikali ni Sh.3,000/- na mnaona hiyo
miaka yote tangu tupate uhuru mpaka wa leo, na sisi zote tajiri na maskini wanasomesha
watoto university moja. Na, nataka kuuliza kwa nini mwananchi wa chini anafinywa na
tajiri anakuwa mwenye uwezo na duka ni moja, petrol station ni moja tunakunywa
mafuta pale, mahindi inaingizwa kutoka nje, mwananchi hata anafinywa, university ni ile
moja ambaye tunasomesha sisi zote. Kwa nini mwananchi wa chini anababolewa na
tajiri anakuwa na uwezo mkubwa kuliko mwananchi wa chini?
Tena mimi nimeona jinsi imetangazwa ya kwamba hii COMESA inapoteza 430 million
kwa ile ushuru ingenipewa kutoka hapa Kenya. Na mbona serikali inawacha hiyo pesa
inapotea kila mwezi na inaenda kukopa pesa kutoka nje, kwa nini asitumie hii poll tax ya
kuleta hii pesa badala ya (inaudible) uhuru tupate hii 430 million inawacha hiyo inapita,
halafu anaenda nje kukopa pesa. Tena, mazao ile ambaye ya kulete pesa kama airport,
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tuseme Kilindini, kila mahali kote imefunjwa, halafu tunaacha hiyo pesa inapotea, na
serikali inasema tunaenda ng’ambo kulete pesa ingine kama mkopo na wao wenyewe
wameshindwa kuelewana. Unahidi mkopo isikuje, hiyo ingine watu wanapewa wakubwa
kulete mahindi na mkulima wa Kenya anafinywa na mahindi yake inaozea kwa store.
Asante sana wananchi. Tunataka tujibiwe hiyo.
Speaker:
I will ask one question and ………(inaudible) constitution chairman. One,
the commission is …… (inaudible) to take views of Kenyans but even if I would
…….(inaudible) almost 100% are men. Now, are we ……any views of women. Two,
we have had so many commissions which given time frame, for example and if you read
well, the 1923 Devonshire Paper, the commission was made, ikaweka vitu zao but the
recommendations up to date from 1923 up to now have not been taken into consideration.
That is why you are seeing the situation of squatters and such other people. Now such
questions the commission has not assured us or …… and whether they have security or
they depend on the political wing.
Secondly there is the question of what kind of government we are supposed to have
indicated. You have raised the issue of Federalism and Unitary system of government
but I don’t think we can raise the two issues in one constitutional debate. For example if
you are …… views the views will not take into consideration some little breaches that
will arise due to the like if you want to adopt the Federal System of government, there are
some questions we need to discuss now. But the …………..(inaudible) be giving my
views and I am not sure whether the Federal government will be adopted, I will not give
those views, where will you get the views on the question of the distribution of the
Federal State? So I was asking if the commission could have laid down its goal so that at
the beginning, they adopt the first question to determine whether Kenyans want
Federalism or not. Once they adopt that, then you get views along that line.
Lastly, there is the question of the commission putting its timetable to be in tandemwith
the elections. Don’t you think constitutional making is a political exercise which I hope
should not be mixed with the constitutional governance.
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I request the commission to put its house in order, such that we do not push constitutional
review to elections, because if we do that then we will only end up with views of one
political group. And I really request the commission on this. Do not hold meetings in
Eldoret, Kisumu, Nairobi and such. There are people in the interior whom we said
should be the ones to give the views.
People here are learned and there are divisions from around here, mostly. That means the
very people in the background have not produced their views here and will never have
the views. Please do not concentrate on such looking on the modalities of reviewing the
constitution like what we are doing here. Go into the real business and start the business
and start the business now and end constitutional review on high note hoping that you
have the political will.
Mr Gor:
Basi tutachukua swali la mwisho halafu tutapata majibu.
Peter Somno: Jina langu ni Peter Somno na mimi ni mkaaji wa Eldoret hapa.
Commissioners, nafikiri mimi nimesikia hii maneno tangu wiki mbili iliopita nikiwa
kando ya radio yangu nikisikiza maneno hii katika KBC kwa commissioners wale
wanajibu maswali.
………(inaudible) nilikuwa na swali mbili tu ambaye nilisema
nikipata hawa hata nilikuwa natafuta pesa ya kuenda kupiga simu ..(inaudible) ni vipi.
Swali ni mbili pekee yake, na kutoa maoni kidogo. Na leo nisitoi maoni kwa sababu
…………. (inaudible).
Kabla sijauliza maneno ningetaka tu niwahakikishie sisi hii elimu ya civic education.
Kwa sababu hata katika mahali yetu naishi nilisikia mahali ingine mbali kidogo kidogo
mwingine anasema katika mahali tunaitwa council inatakikana iletwe civic education.
Mimi hata nilisikitika moyo wangu, nikikuwa nafanya kazi wakati ingine, mimi nikaenda
bila kulipwa ……….(tape ends).
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Mkisema mnataka kuenda kwa wananchi, kusikia na kuleta maoni kutoka katika nchi.
Na nataka kuongeza na mwingine aliuliza ma-commissioners kwamba, 80% ya Kenya
na mimi nilizaliwa ninajua kwamba sisi wananchi 80% hatujui Katiba ya Kenya inasema
nini.
Na ningeomba hivi, ile pesa mngepewa kutumia hii, kwa nini msipea kuletea sisi Katiba
kidogo ya zamani ili kila mtu wakati anaenda katika Katiba kuangalia na kuuliza na
kuleta, anajua …….. (inaudible) na mahali gani hawezi ……….. (inaudible) Swali langu
ni hii, mtaenda kama nyinyi commissioner, ama mtakuja vile mlikuja hapa mkasema sisi
tumefanya hii Katiba katika watu wa ile constituency, ama mtaenda vijijini. Mimi
na………..(inaudible) nitakuja ………. (inaudible) nyinyi nisikie watu na vile
mshafanya, ama mtaenda Soy, ama mtaenda Ainabkoi, ama mtaenda Moiben kuleta yule
mama ako Moiben wacha ile wako hapa …….. (inaudible) mtaenda uko, ama mtaenda
hapa.
Kwa sababu hii tumekuwa na shida commissioners mingi mnaenda County
Council ama hapa ……….. (inaudible) na wale wale wanataka kusikia maneno wako
interior, hawana pesa ya kutumia. Sisi hapa wacha kutembea, hata kupata pesa ni chungu
mzima, huwezi pata pesa. Sasa ningetaka kujua leo hii, kwamba mtaenda katika vijijini
kusikia maoni ya raia katika review constitution? ama mtataka sisi tukuje hapa. Na
kama mnataka sisi tukuje hapa, ni watu wagani mtu wa gani atakuja?
Ya pili, ikiwa kama mtakuja, mseme mtakuja. Wale mlikuwa mme-propose ati ni kamiti
ambaye Bunge atachagua, ni wale wanakuja watakuja huko kuchukua maoni yetu ama
iko commissioners wengine? Kwa sababu kama hiyo hata mimi nasema naungana na
wengine nasema wachaguliwe kulingana na maoni ya watu.
Yangu ya mwisho ni hii, Katiba hii tuko naye sasa inatengeneza, insahisha ama
inarekebisha, sijaenda …………. (inaudible) na mwingine aende.
Mtatengeza,
tunasahisha ama tunarekebisha? Hiyo ndiyo swali yangu.
Com. Isaac Lenaola: Asante sana.
Wacha nianze na swali ya mzee.
Hatusahishi
Katiba, tunarekebisha. Hii si mara ya kwanza kwamba Katiba ya Kenya sasa iko na
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viraka, viraka 38 kwa miaka 38. Kila mwaka kakiraka.
Umetuone hizo viraka kwa
siruali? Kwa hivyo hii Katiba mpya tunarekebisha kabisa.
Mambo ya enactment. ….. (inaudible) aliuliza kwamba, hii Katiba itaenda kwa President
ipate assent?
Jibu ni mbili.
Katiba ambaye tutamaliza sisi kutengeneza ………
(inaudible) kwa President huyu ama mwingine. Baada ya National Conference inaenda
kuwa Parliament. Parliament nilisema mara ya kwanza, haitapewa hata coma ya ile
report.
Ita rubber stamp hiyo document, haitaenda kwa President, haitaenda kwa
Wamalwa ama Wafula ama nani. Tumeelewana?
Mambo ya Time frame na election. Ratiba yetu kama tume haina link yoyote ya kura ya
next year. Function yetu hailingani na ya parliament. Kazi zetu kwa kisheria, by 4 th
October 2002, hii kazi ……tumalize. Lakini tukishindwa kumaliza, pengine tuna shida
kwa sababu kazi inakuwa mingi, tuko na ….. katika sheria kuuliza extension yetu kama
commission. Na hiyo extension yetu haina link na extension ya parliament. Hiyo ni
sheria ingine.
Mambo ya commission yetu na commission zingine, tuelewane, hii commission si kama
Njonjo commission, si kama Akiumi commission, si kama Koech Commission. Hii
commission imetungwa katika sheria fulani chapter 3A Laws of Kenya.
Alizungumzia pia Bw Mbugua alisema kwamba ameona hii sheria yetu 3A haikuweko
ndani ya Katiba ya sasa, ili kwamba mtu yoyote anajaribu kufanya vile walifanya na
KASA kwamba yule alienda kortini akisema ya kwamba hii tume si kisheria.
Tunahakishiwa wiki iliopita na Attorney General kwamba kabla christmas Parliament imaintain hii Act katika constitution, ili kwamba kutoa sisi imechukua two-thirds ya
Parliament kutoa na hiyo katika siasa ya sasa, ni kazi ngumu sana. Kwa hivyo kabla ya
Christmas tuko na hakika lazima sisi kama commission tukuwe in time kukupatia
constitution.
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Wapi Katiba ile ya zamani? Katiba ile ya kiraka za kuweka document itakuwa na
constitution ile ya zamani, itakuwa na hii constitution na kuna kitabu kidogo ambapo
tume-translate Katiba kwa lugha ya Kiswahili ili kwamba mzee kama huyu, akitaka
kusoma Katiba ya leo inasema nini, tume-translate, tume reduce, katika lugha ambaye
haijalewa Katiba ya leo ni ngumu sana kuelewa hata mawakili wale ambao hampendi
hawaelewi Katiba. ….. Kwa lugha ambao kila mtu anaweza kuelewa, tena itakuwa kwa
katika divisional centres.
Maoni tutachukua katika sheria ambao …… maoni itachukuliwa katika kila constituency,
hapana Eldoret town, hapana Ainabkoi, hapana Moiben, kila constituency.
Na ile
committee ya constituency ata-mobilise watu kuja katika constituency kuchukua maoni.
….kuongea kama sasa, ni kuwasikiza. Kwa hivyo, na ratiba yetu, programme tutawapa
in very good time kwamba siku fulani tuko katika Eldoret North, siku fulani tuko
Turkana Central, siku fulani tuko Turkana North, ili kila mtu akuwe tayari kuja kusikiza
na kutupa maoni yao.
Dr Chirchir alisema kwamba programme, nimesema kwamba programme kwa njia nzuri,
na mnielewe hii mkutano wa leo haiko katika programme yetu. …… (inaudible) kama
tuko Eldoret …….. (inaudible) wananchi. Poleni kwamba programme ilikuwa short
notice lakini tulisema afadhali short notice lakini tuwasikize baadala kuuja
……(inaudible) tembea tembea hapa na tunarudi bila kuwasikiza nyinyi sauti, na sauti
tumesikia.
Peter Njenga aliuliza mambo ya political parties, NGOs, churches katika civic education,
tuta-involve kila mtu ambae ako na uwezo wa kufanya wa kufanya civic education,
NGOs, makanisa, North, Central, political parties, walimu na Consumer Society, kila mtu
ambao ako na uwezo.
Kwa hivyo hiyo siasa ya ohh, makanisa coming into civic
education, NGOs, hiyo tu ni policy ya tume. We are inclusive na kila mwananchi
anapewa nafasi ya ku-participate.
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Bwana Kanyi; other laws sheria zingine katika hii kazi. Hii Katiba iko na mandate
kuangalia sheria zingine. Si Katiba pekee yake, sheria kuhusu land, sheria kuhusu
property, property kuhusu makortini, kila sheria iko na haki ya kuchunguza na kufanya
recommendation. Kwa hivyo, kuna zile …. ..Katiba halafu kuna zingine tutaziangalia,
therefore it does not include only, kuna nafasi ya kuangalia sheria zingine.
Administration; wao pia ni Wakenya, Machifu, Ma-D.O, Ma-DC sio ni Wakenya? Na
jana tulikuwa na DC wa kutoka area hii, tutaongea nao, tukawambia nyinyi katika sheria
hii ya Katiba, mko na jukumu kwa hivyo mkutano kama hii hata-interfere, hata-probe up,
hatatuma AP, na katika sheria yetu hii ya 3A, kuna section (iii) inasema kwamba lazima
kila
mtu,
Ma-chifu,
Ma-DC,
Ma-Councilor
wahakikishe
kwamba
Wakenya
wanajadiliana, wanaelezana, wanaelewa mambo ya Katiba bila mtu yoyote ku-interfere
ama ku-influence wao.
Na wao pia kama Administration, wako na hiyo sheria,
tumewapa, wameelewa. Nafikiri kama nimeacha ingine ……… Asanteni sana.
Com. Alice Yano:
Ndiyo.
Asanteni sana wananchi.
Kuna jambo fulani tulipata
kuhusu hofu yenu. Nataka kuhakikishia ya kuwa hii tume ni tume huru kabisa. Hii tume
ni tume lenu, inatumikia wananchi, itafanya kazi ya wananchi, na haitafanya kazi ya
sehemu fulani ama ifanyie kazi mtu fulani. Hii ni tume ya wananchi na tulikula kiapo,
najua wengi wenu mnajua kiapo ni nini. Na kiapo tulikula ile kiapo mbaya sana. Na
tukaeleza ya kuwa tutatumikia wananchi na hatutatumikia mtu mwengine. Tafadhalini
mtoe hiyo hofu kabisa kutoka roho zenu.
Kuhusu swali ya National Constitutional Forum, ama mkutano wa kitaifa ya kujadiliana
maneno ya Katiba, ni kazi ya tume hii kuangalia ya kuwa representation itafanywa kwa
hakika na kuwa kila mtu apate kuwa represented. Kwa sheria yetu inasema ya kuwa sisi
tume ni lazima tuwe hapo. Tume tuko 29, hiyo ni lazima tutakuwa hapo.
Kuna members of the National Assembly, lazima pia watakuwa hapo.
Sasa penye
wananchi watachagua wakisaidiwa na tume ni wakilishi watatu kutoka wilaya, wilaya
zote za Kenya hii.
Moja ya hawa wakilishi atakuwa mama na mwingine atakuwa
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councilor. Wale wengine ni wakilishi kutoka chama mbali mbali – political parties. Na
kwa kutimisha hawa political parties, ni wenye wamekuwa registered kabla siku yenyewe
hatujakuja kufanya kazi. Si vile leo mtu ataenda afanye registration ya party na kusema
anataka kuakilishwa katika National Constitutional Conference. Pia sheria inasema ya
kuwa tutapata wakilishi kutoka makanisa mbali mbali, professional bodies, religious
organizations, pia kutoka kwa wamama, Trade Unions and Non-governmental
Organisations registered at the commencement of the Act. Hawa wote lazima wakuwa
wamekuwa registered kabla sisi wenyewe hatuajakuja kufanya kazi.
Hawa
representatives hawawezi kupita 25% ya wale wote kutoka ma-commissioners mpaka
members of the National Assembly mpaka hawa wa District.
Nafikiri
……………nimejibu swali lako.
Kuna hofu nyingine tena kuhusu civic education. Bi Aroni ameeleza vizuri ya kuwa
civic education, ikifika wakati wa civic education, ni kazi ya commission kuangalia ya
kuwa wenye wataenda kupea haya masomo kutoka wananchi, yale civic educators
wameangaliwa kabisa, wamejulikana ni watu ama ni kundi la watu wataenda kufanya
kazi vizuri. Juu hatutaki kundi la kuenda kufundisha watu maneno ya uchovu. Hatutaki
kundi ya kwenda kufundisha watu maneno ingine isio husu Katiba.
Tunajua kuwa Katiba ni kitu cha maana sana na kupata Katiba kizuri Kenya hii leo, ama
nchi hii leo, inafaa tufanye civic education nzuri. Na lazima hiyo civic education iende
mpaka isikize na wale watu wenye nimesikia sana sana hapa ni town na pengine watu
wako nyumbani, na ni kweli. Lazima ifike kwa kiwango ya yule mtu hata kuweza
kwenda mkutano ama kwenda shopping centre ile iko karibu na kwao. Na hiyo maneno
ya civic education yataangalia maneno mingi kama gender balance.
Pia sheria inakuambia ya kuwa lazima ikifika wakati ya kuchukua maoni ya watu, sheria
yenyewe inawatuambia tutaenda constituencies. Tutaenda kwa wakilishi wa Bunge ili
tupitie mpaka tufikie pale chini kabisa penye si kama Municipal ama si kama National,
lazima tuende tukute wananchi wenyewe on the ground.
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Pia kuna jambo kuhusu Member of Parliament akiwa kwa constituency forum. Bi Aroni
alieleza vizuri ya kuwa yatakuweko kwa sababu ya sheria yenye tuko nayo, na nafikiria
venye walifikia hizo ni ya kuwa huwezi enda constituency ufanye kazi yako bila kupita
the leaders of the place. It is very, very important we also have the leaders of the place.
Lakini ijulikane ya kuwa huyu MP hana jukumu ya kuchagua watu yeye mwenyewe.
Kuchagua hawa watu saba itakuwa kazi ya Co-ordinator na ikuwe kazi ya Councillor, na
hata sio kazi ya councillor, ni kazi ya Co-ordinator in consultation, akiwauliza leaders
wote, councilors, MPs, ni nai tutachukua ili akiwakilisha kwa constituency.
So,
msifikirie ati MP atachukua jukumu, hapana. Asante sana Bwana Gor.
Mr Gor:
Hapo, Commissioner ameeleza kwamba sheria ambaye itatumika kuguni
kamati za constituency imetekelezwa na Co-ordinator in consultation with the people and
with the leaders,
Interjection: (inaudible)
Mr Gor:
Bado, bado. Na ningependa sasa, kwa sababu saa zimekwenda, naomba
mtu moja atupe maombi ya mwisho ili tufunge mkutano, closing prayer. Hakuna Pastor
hapa?
Speaker:
Basi tuombe.
Asante Mwenyezi Mungu, ……. (inaudible)Tuliomba
asubuhi, tukaomba utuongoze, ni asante ….. (inaudible) imefika, ………. (inaudible).
Mungu ya ajabu tazama vile ma-commissioners hawa na wakaaji wa Eldoret
tumezungumza na tumefikiana malengo letu pale majabu. Wakati hii kazi ambao iko
hapa mbele yetu Baba tunaomba haki itumike, haki ionekane, ndiyo mwananchi ya
kawaida aone raha ya nchi yake kukaa katika nchi yetu ya Kenya.
tumeachana …… katika ombi lako.
Mungu sasa
Bariki ma-commissioners wanapoenda, bariki
wakaaji wa Eldoret na kazi zao zote, katika jina la Yesu Kristo tunaomba. Amen.
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