29 OCTOBER 2014
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WEDNESDAY, 29 OCTOBER 2014
____
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 15:00.
House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick took the Chair and requested
members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or
meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
ECONOMICS
Cluster 5
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon members, the
only item on the Order Paper is Questions to the Ministers in
the Economics cluster. Members may press the “to talk” button on
their desks if they wish to ask a supplementary question.
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MINISTERS:
Reasons for delay in issuing broadcast licences
238.
Mrs M R Shinn (DA) asked the Minister of Telecommunications
and Postal Services:
What are the reasons for the delay in the final issuing of
broadcast
television
licences
to
applications
the
five
approved
new
by
subscription-based
the
Independent
Communications Authority of South Africa in April 2014? NO2415E
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Hon
House Chair, hon members will know that the Independent
Communications Authority of South Africa, Icasa, continues to
issue licences under the Electronic Communications Act, which is
administered by the Department of Telecommunications and Postal
Services.
In relation to the alleged delays in issuing the subscription
television licences, we would like to inform the hon member that
none of the five new subscription-based television applicants
that were conditionally approved by Icasa in April 2014 fully
met all the licensing requirements as set out in the invitation
to apply.
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The Independent Communications Authority of South Africa then
gave these licensees three months to comply with the invitation
to apply and with the Electronic Communications Act. It was
hoped that if the applicants met the requirements of the
invitation to apply, the licences would be issued thereafter.
The five licensees - Siyaya TV, Kagiso TV, Close-T, TV4U and
Mindset TV - did not meet the conditions, which include, among
others, the confirmation of equity ownership, particularly the
black economic empowerment ... [Interjections.] You must listen!
They did not meet the funding requirements that were required in
the invitation to apply and some of them did not have any local
content production, as was also required by the invitation to
apply. The Independent Communications Authority of South Africa
is now looking at new submissions with the aim of finalising
this matter - after receiving this additional information - so
that those who have met the conditions will be issued the
licences. Thank you very much.
Mrs M R SHINN: Minister, of the five who applied, only one has
asked for an extension of the deadline and that was because
there was a legal conflict of interest. So far it has taken
Icasa two-and-a-half years to process five applications. In
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2007, it took 18 months to process 20 applications, which lead
industry players to speculate that something sinister was afoot
- so much so that in February the National African Federated
Chamber of Commerce and Industry, Nafcoc, wrote to Gwede
Mantashe, requesting a meeting to air their concerns regarding
Icasa when it did not bend to the ANC’s will.
They wanted to alert the ANC to the fact that some employees in
this communications department were seemingly working closely
with Icasa officials and the councillor who is tipped to become
the chairperson next year. They got no response, which
aggravated their suspicions that something corrupt was going on.
It has taken a threat of court action by one of the applicants
to get some movement on the issue of his licence. What steps
will the Minister take to ensure that Icasa operates
independently and swiftly so that the aggrieved applicants do
not have to run to Luthuli House or the courts?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, as I have said, it is not Icasa that is causing the
current delays. It is the applicants themselves who are not
meeting the requirements as set out in the invitation to apply.
So, it is not correct to blame Icasa. Because Icasa wanted to
facilitate the issuing of these licences they then conditionally
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approved them, but did not issue them until they get this
additional information.
This thing of something sinister going on in the ANC does not
come into play. What is sinister is that the hon member goes and
dines with all these people. Instead of them complying with the
requirements, they spend time wining and dining her. The problem
is that it would be very wrong for this House to start casting
aspersions on the councillors of Icasa for doing their work. It
would be equally wrong for the DA to start speculating about
political interference - something that we investigated and
found not to be there.
As far as we are concerned, the Icasa subcommittee met just last
week. They are busy considering this information with the aim of
taking this into full council so that the decision can be made.
However, I would like to point out to those who do not want any
BEE and to those who do not want local content as prescribed in
the invitation to apply that I will support Icasa’s decision
with regard to that. Thank you.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Chairperson, I want to hear from the Minister
regarding what appears to be the problematic development of
business plans to ensure the sustainability of these TV
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stations. We should not forget that OnDigital Media was placed
under business administration three years after they were
awarded a TV licence in 2007.
It is clearly not simple to run additional broadcasting services
in South Africa. In order to break the monopoly of DStv –
Multichoice - would the Minister not consider engaging in
discussion with some of the other Ministers in the Economics
cluster to ensure that additional support for the development of
sustainable business plans could be created? This would enable
other broadcast wannabe’s to come to the market and to meet the
requirements and the conditions set out in the licence
agreements with Icasa. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Yes, as
a department we would consider that, if they require our
assistance in developing business plans. What is critical here –
I have already mentioned some of the important aspects of the
funding requirements – and what we do not want is to issue a
licence and then find a person selling it to get some foreign
funders or equity partners.
What we also do not want, as we do these processes, is to forget
about our transformation agenda. Of course, we have no problem
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to try to assist those who have problems in developing a proper
business plan. In addition, this government, as has been said
before, is committed to ensuring that the capacity of the
regulator, Icasa, is increased so that they will be able to
process these things expeditiously. Thank you very much.
Mr D L TWALA: Hon Minister, with the proliferation of these new
proposed television broadcasters, do you not think our people
are oversubscribed already? If we consider the quality of
service they have been receiving, it would perhaps be helpful of
you to take us through the elements - just the highlights -that
would make these new entrants into the industry different from
what we have. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Hon
member, the market is not oversubscribed. There is one supplier
of a subscription service, as has been mentioned by hon members.
As government it is our view that we must increase competition,
even in the subscription segment of our television service. The
real challenge, as you have said and, yes, as I have said, is
that we have to break the monopoly. All of us are committed to
that.
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As you know, the mergers that would make these things work, as
we move to digital migration, is the issue of local content. It
is important; it is not a trivial matter. That is what we know:
South Africans are hungry for local content. If you check the
current television programming, what is popular is local
content, more so than the foreign productions flooding our
market. That is what will make them find a niche - if they start
broadcasting programmes that mean something to you as a South
African, in your language, in your region – reflecting your
regional context. In my view that is what will make them
successful – because the market is there; the hunger is there.
People want something other than just the same content that is
always being pushed through the television media. Thank you.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Hon Minister, applications to Icasa for freeto-air TV broadcasting licences closed this week. This, along
with the much-delayed process for aspirant subscription-based TV
broadcasters, is part of the government’s obligation, and of the
Electronic Communications Act, to promote competition, encourage
a diversity of media voices and offer a viable operating
environment for new entrants to the market.
South Africa’s TV landscape is dominated by two players,
Multichoice in the subscription arena, as you know, and SABC in
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the free-to-air space. Their business relationship is one of
collusion to keep out other players, and e.tv is currently under
pressure to promote the ANC government’s propaganda. What is
your department and Icasa doing to ensure that the broadcasting
landscape is structured so that broadcasting entrepreneurs have
a fair chance to test their services in the market and to give
South Africans diversity of voices? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: The
question was primarily about subscription television, not the
free-to-air service. However, I think we have answered the
question by saying that we do want competition in all the
segments, both in free-to-air and in subscription television. I
am not aware of e.tv being pushed ... [Interjections.]
Mr C MACKENZIE: [Inaudible]
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: No,
listen, it is very important. The hon member is aware that in
terms of the Broadcasting Act and the Electronic Communications
Act there is no television channel that will propagate the
agenda of a political party. That is a criminal activity. If you
have that information, please bring it to the attention of the
police, instead of coming here with cheap political rhetoric
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which you know is not true. [Interjections.] You know it is not
true, but you are deliberately putting it forward in this House.
[Interjections.]
As far as we are concerned, we want new entrants. We want
diversity in these segments as a matter of policy. As I have
already said, as we move to the digital environment, we hope
that more channels will come in and more broadcasters will have
the spectrum to enter this market. Thank you.
Steps to address challenge of supply chain management
250.
Mr
N
F
Shivambu
(EFF)
asked
the
Minister
of
Trade
and
Industry:
Whether, with reference to the Auditor-General’s report on
the 2012-13 financial year which highlighted that supply
chain management is a common challenge to all government
departments, he has taken any steps to address this
challenge in his department; if not, why not; if so, what
are the relevant details?
NO2429E
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon members,
Question 250 was asked by the hon Shivambu to the Minister of
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Trade and Industry. I have been informed that the Deputy
Minister of Economic Development will be answering the question
on behalf of the Minister. I have also been informed that the
hon Litchfield-Tshabalala will take charge of the supplementary
question on behalf of the hon Shivambu. Is that correct?
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Chair, I think it was agreed at the
Chief Whips’ Forum meeting today that the Minister will answer
the Questions next week when we deal with the Governance cluster
and that 30 additional minutes will be allocated for him to
answer in person. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon members, I wish to
make the following ruling: Questions for Oral Reply may only be
deferred to another Question session in two instances: firstly,
when the Speaker, at the request of the member in whose name the
Question stands and after consultation with the Leader of
Government Business, directs the question to be deferred to the
next Question session in terms of Rule 109(3) and, secondly,
when the Minister to whom the Question for Oral Reply is
addressed so requests. The Question may then be placed on the
Question Paper for reply on the next Question Day when the
relevant Minister is scheduled to reply to Questions.
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For this reason, a decision to defer a Question for Oral Reply
to another Question session is therefore not a decision that is
to be taken by the Chief Whips’ Forum, but rather one that is to
be taken by the Speaker of the National Assembly.
We wish to proceed in the following manner now that there is
clarity on where the decision-making lies. We have not received
a request based on what the hon member is referring to – the
discussions that had taken place in the Chief Whips’ Forum. We
will take it on good faith that that is indeed the decision or
discussion that took place in the Chief Whips’ Forum, hon Chief
Whip of the Majority Party.
We will then deal with this matter outside of this plenary
session, and we will report back to the Programming Committee
tomorrow morning as to how this specific Question will be dealt
with. I will now go to the next Question.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, may I
address you? I directed correspondence to the Speaker yesterday
for a Question by the hon Hill-Lewis, making a request and
following the procedure laid out in the Rules. Given the
confusion that now exists, may I have confirmation from you that
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that has been acceded to, because that was the discussion that
took place in the Chief Whips’ Forum this morning?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, that is a
different matter. It is not the same matter. That Question is
not currently before us, but allow us the opportunity to
interact on the matter and we will deal with it in the
Programming Committee meeting tomorrow morning.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, it is very
material to today’s proceedings, because it is about the
preparation for Questions for Oral Reply. So, when an impression
is created in the Chief Whips’ Forum in the morning, it is very
difficult then to come to the House and deny the fact that that
interaction had taken place, because there is a preparation
period for follow-ups, etc.
Now, I addressed correspondence to the Speaker on an urgent
basis yesterday. My understanding, and the impression that was
created this morning in the Chief Whips’ Forum, was that that
request in fact had been acceded to. If not, then it is very
important that that Question comes onto the Order Paper today.
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! No, hon member,
let me clarify the situation regarding your urgent letter to the
Speaker yesterday afternoon. We certainly were not informed of
that and, as I said, the Chief Whips’ Forum is a consultative
forum between the various political parties. It is not a forum
that can take binding decisions on a sitting of the House. That
is why you have a Speaker of the National Assembly to deal with
matters like that. You must allow us the opportunity to interact
with the Speaker so that we can report back to you at our
earliest convenience when we have a response in that regard. I
can assure you that we will take it up immediately after this
Question session. But let’s allow this Question session to
proceed.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chair, I need to place
on record that my letter to the Speaker was, in fact, referred
to at the Chief Whips’ Forum this morning. So, it was very clear
that that information had been relayed. Otherwise, if he had not
been furnished with it, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party
would have been unaware of the request.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon Chief Whip, do you
wish to add to this?
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chair, I agree
that we discussed the matter in the Chief Whips’ Forum. We also
agreed that, on the basis of that agreement, the matter was
going to be deferred, but the premise on which we did so was the
fact that there was nobody available to answer the Questions. It
turns out today – now - that the Deputy Minister is here. So,
the basis on which we agreed to that arrangement falls away,
because the Deputy Minister is here. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon Chief Whips,
I want to proceed with this Question session. I have
established, and I have repeated, what was said before about the
Chief Whips’ Forum and the consultative nature thereof. Whatever
is discussed there and on which the Chief Whips reach common
positions on must be communicated to the Speaker when it
pertains to issues affecting the House. [Interjections.] Is
there another matter now, hon member?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Yes, there is another matter,
House Chairperson. We have a Whippery in this House to ensure
the smooth running of this House. Now, when agreements and
undertakings are made in good faith in that forum, but they are
reneged upon when we arrive in the House, then it creates a very
bad working environment for Parliament. If this is how the ANC
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wants to run this House, that is fine. We will be ready for
them.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Yes, hon member, we run
the House according to the established Rules, and I really want
to get on with this matter now.
Mr M WATERS: Chair, if I may just also inform you of something.
I understand that the Chief Whips’ Forum is a consultative body.
We - all the parties today - were informed that both the
Minister and Deputy Minister would not be in the House to answer
Questions. We were informed of that today. Now the situation has
changed. As hon Steenhuisen has said, we have not prepared for
these Questions because of the undertaking given in the Chief
Whips’ Forum that these Questions would be deferred to next week
Wednesday.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon member, I
have just stated what the Rule is. You must give us the
opportunity to interact with the correspondence and the nature
of discussions that took place in the Chief Whips’ Forum. The
Speaker is not a member of the Chief Whips’ Forum, and we will
interact with her, and then we will report back at the
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appropriate forum. Let us go to Question 265. [Interjections.]
Hon Singh, are you also rising on this matter?
Mr N SINGH: Chair, while I respect your ruling, are we saying
that there will be no answer to Question 250 today? I do not
think the Deputy Minister will be in a position to take any
follow-up questions.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Hon member, if you have
followed the discussions, you would know that we are now on
Question 265, which has been asked by the hon Magadzi to the
Minister of Transport. I have been informed that the Deputy
Minister will be answering Questions on behalf of the Minister.
Response to concerns about current form and cost of e-tolls
265.
Mr D P Magadzi (ANC) asked the Minister of Transport:
With reference to the concerns of people on the current form
and cost of e-tolls and the Gauteng provincial government’s
undertaking to do a scientific exercise into the Gauteng
Freeway
Improvement
System
(GFIS)
relating
to
e-tolling
through a public process in which the views of the people of
Gauteng and their organisations are being listened to, how
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does she plan to respond to the proposals that have arisen
from a certain political party’s (name furnished) Gauteng
Provincial Congress and the Gauteng Provincial Government
Initiative?
NO2451E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, I must indicate
that the Minister of Transport wanted to be in the House. She
actually cancelled her trip to Mauritius so that she could be in
the House. [Interjections.] Yes, it was a work-related trip, but
she has been booked off sick and the doctor said she is on
strict bed rest. [Interjections.] That is the doctor’s
prescription. I think I must say, here in the House, she wanted
to be here. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: So, she is at home; she is
booked off sick; she is on strict bed rest.
Chairperson, in answer to the question, firstly, the panel that
is reviewing the Gauteng Freeway Improvement System, GFIP, is
that of the premier of Gauteng. He established it, and, indeed,
it will report to the premier. The Department of Transport,
together with the SA National Roads Agency Limited, Sanral, will
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go and make a presentation to the panel to correct whatever
distortion might be there. We are, indeed, willing to respond,
but we will wait for the process to come to an end, and only
then will we know what the outcome of the process will be. For
now, we cannot pre-empt the outcome. I thank you.
Mr D P MAGADZI: House Chair, hon Deputy Minister, in view of the
fact that the implementation of GFIP is problematic, what will
inform any similar proposals to be undertaken in any other part
of the country? How will we be able to make sure that there are
proper mechanisms to deal with the roads of the country? Are
there any other programmes that exist in terms of funding or the
development and maintenance of infrastructure? Thank you very
much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, the tolling of
roads in South Africa started in 1983. It is one form of raising
funding for the maintenance and major rehabilitation of roads.
Of course, the “user pays” principle is a practice that is
accepted worldwide. However, I must mention the fact that the
question we need to answer, as a country, is about the funding
model for road infrastructure development. We need to discuss
that and come up with that answer.
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As South Africa we pride ourselves on having national roads of
international quality. We compete with the best in the world. As
a matter of fact, we are number 18 in the world when it comes to
our paved roads, and we have a road network that puts us at
number 10 in the world in terms of its length. [Applause.] The
issue is how, then, do we fund that? I am talking about national
roads. We need to discuss it, and that is what we are saying.
Thank you very much. [Interjections.]
Rev K R J MESHOE: My follow-up question was for the previous
question, sir.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! So your follow-up
question related to the previous question. [Interjections.] Hon
members, I am following the screen to see the requests as
members push the button on the panel in front of them. It seems
to me that it is not consistent with this question. I will
therefore ask members who wish to ask a follow-up question on
this one to indicate so by hand. I have recognised three now:
the hon member from the EFF, the hon member from the IFP, and
the DA. Hon member from the EFF, please proceed.
Mr N S MATIASE: Hon Chairperson, we want to know, firstly,
whether the ANC-led government, having borrowed money from both
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the International Monetary Fund and the Austrian consortium,
wants the people to repay the loan, which is meant to enrich its
political elite at the expense of the poor people. Secondly,
does the ANC-led government want to raise the cost of living of
poor households and the working class, especially those from
Limpopo and the Eastern Cape who work in Gauteng, to recover the
costs that will benefit the elite of the ruling party? Does the
government still uphold the principle that the people shall
govern? As far as we are concerned, we have found government’s
stubborn pursuit of the e-toll system to be a totally outrageous
and disrespectful ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! Hon member, your
time has now expired and you have not asked your question.
Mr N S MATIASE: ... system.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Deputy Minister, do you
want to respond?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, Sanral does go
out to market to borrow money. That is how it works. It then
comes back and we have to pay. That is the “user pays”
principle. So, there is nothing wrong with that. What will make
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the people of the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal pay for the
roads that they are not using is the fuel levy, not e-tolling,
and not the tolling system. [Interjections.]
The tolling system says that if you use the road, you pay for
it. It is a system that applies not only in Gauteng but in all
the provinces. The only difference is that in Gauteng it is
electronic and in other provinces it is manual. You pass a tollgate, you pay. In Gauteng, you drive under the gantries and you
pay later, but it is the same system. [Interjections.] That is
exactly what it is all about.
However, if you are talking about the Eastern Cape, the fuel
levy will make a person here buy petrol and pay for the roads
that they are not using in Gauteng. [Interjections.] That is
what we, as the Department of Transport, have a problem with.
Thank you very much. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, are any
public concerns that arise from the process taken as legitimate
opposition to e-tolling? If the President says he did not ask
for the upgrade of Nkandla, how can the people of Gauteng be
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expected to pay for a system that they did not ask for?
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon members!
[Interjections.] Order!
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, as government, we
have a responsibility to develop this country. We have a
responsibility to attract investors ... [Interjections.] ... and
one of the things that we have to ensure is proper and good
quality road infrastructure. No investor will come to a country
that has a poor road infrastructure. Therefore, we have to do
that and we have to pay for the infrastructure. The question is
this: If not a tolling system, how should we pay for our
national roads? All over the world, people are using the “user
pays” principle to pay for the roads. We are saying that that is
what we are doing.
There is nobody who wants to pay. If it were up to me, I would
be happy to have this dress for free! [Interjections.] I would
be happy to have it for free, but we are expected to pay for
services, and one of the services is for us to construct roads
of good quality. [Interjections.] Thank you very much.
[Applause.]
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Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Chair, it is interesting that the Deputy
Minister says she would love to have the roads for free. We are
already paying for these roads through our taxes.
[Interjections.]
HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Gautengers are now forced to pay a double
tax. They are paying twice for the same item. I must just remind
the Deputy Minister that members of this House, including those
of her own party, the leader of Gauteng and the structures of
the ANC, agree with this position as well. They are not happy,
just as Gautengers are not happy about paying a double tax.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
The Minister of Transport has agreed to recognise the Makhura
panel. She announced this and, in fact, said they would be
making submissions to the panel. Does it mean, Deputy Minister,
that the outcomes and recommendations made by this panel will be
coming to Parliament for consideration? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, I think I have
said that this is the premier of Gauteng’s panel, and the report
that will come out of the process is his report. There is a
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legislature; there is a government in Gauteng; and I want to
believe that he will take it to the provincial legislature.
However, I must also say that when I answered the question at
first, I said that, as the Department of Transport, we are more
than prepared to go and present ourselves, together with Sanral.
I also want to mention the fact that the fuel levy - as you
know, because you are a member of the portfolio committee - pays
for the Road Accident Fund. That is the money that actually goes
to the Road Accident Fund. For the other roads we are using
S’hamba Sonke, which is not adequate for us to maintain and
construct our roads. We need more than R169 billion if we were
to maintain and construct the 750 000 km road network that we
have in South Africa. It cannot come from the fiscus, and that
is why we definitely have to have other ways.
Of course, the tolling system is working in South Africa. It has
given us the quality of roads that we have at national level,
and I just want to repeat that we are at number 18 in the world
in terms of the quality of our national roads and their
pavements. That is where we are ranked. Thank you very much.
[Interjections.] [Applause.]
Subsidisation of public passenger transport
29 OCTOBER 2014
260.
PAGE: 26 of 111
Mr N Singh (IFP) asked the Minister of Transport:
(1) Whether,
in
view
of
provinces
and
some
metropolitan
municipalities having been delegated the responsibility
to grant and consider requests for the subsidisation of
passenger transport and the awarding of contracts, there
is a uniform policy which specifies which bus routes
qualify for government subsidies; if so, what is the
policy;
(2) whether
the
subsidisation
of
the
public
passenger
transport system should extend to services rendered by
legitimate taxi operators;
(3)
whether legislation exists to subsidise public farepaying passengers on certain routes only?
NO2444E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Sir, in 1996 the government
published the White Paper on National Transport Policy. This
White Paper established the policy direction and formulated a
long-term vision for Transport in the newly democratic South
Africa and is still relevant in terms of the vision it provided.
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It articulated a mission that promoted the use of public
transport over private transport through a strongly customerbased, affordable, integrated, safe and effective system in both
urban and rural areas. This formed the basis for the need to
subsidise services mainly for social equity reasons, with
greater emphasis on affordability.
In this regard, section 40 of the National Land Transport Act of
2009 stipulates that when planning authorities contract services
in their areas they should do so in terms of approved integrated
transport plans. The Public Transport Strategy that was approved
by Cabinet in June 2007 provides a vision of a single system
that integrates routes and modes into a multimodal public
transport network. This is part of the transformation of the
current subsidised system into a more sustainable system of
public funding that integrated taxis into the networks.
The phased implementation of the integrated public transport
network system has commenced in a number of cities and
metropolitans. With regard to paragraph 1 above, subsidised
service contracts are developed in terms of integrated transport
plans. I thank you.
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Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, one needs to
question the relevance of a policy that was crafted in 1996,
albeit that it was relooked in 2007.
The need for the subsidisation of passenger transport arose from
social engineering that took place in apartheid, when people
were not allowed to live in the urban areas. People were not
allowed to even live in the areas where jobs were provided. That
is the reason that subsidisation came to the fore. However, the
dynamics have changed since then.
Public transport at the moment is mainly the use of taxis. The
question to the hon Deputy Minister is: Are taxi operators who
are legitimate being subsidised? It is not the operator who
needs the subsidy, but the person who is using that mode of
transport.
I would like to know this: Is there any form of subsidisation
for those passengers who use those forms of public transport?
There are also those passengers who are travelling on buses and
who do not get subsidies: Why should they not be considered for
affordable transport as well? Thank you.
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: I think it is a good question.
I agree with you, hon member, that 69,7% of the people of South
Africa who travel on public transport use taxis as their mode of
transport. To assist the taxi industry, government introduced
what we referred to as taxi recapitalisation. In that way, we
were actually trying not only to assist and subsidise, but also
to scrap taxis that were not roadworthy.
I must come to the issue of the subsidisation of taxis. The very
fact that we are in constant consultation with the taxi industry
is clear. The system of subsidisation is a little bit difficult
to do for now, but we are indeed looking into that. We are
meeting with the taxi industry; we regard them as our important
stakeholder. We think we will find a solution as we go forward.
It is indeed in the interest of government to look into that
matter. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr G S RADEBE: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for the extensive
answer. My question is this: When you look at the most deeply
rural areas, the national transport policy has not been
integrated very firmly to assist the rural municipalities and
the modes of transport that are operating in those areas.
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I am trying to check how far you are in terms of engaging the
rural municipalities to ensure that they integrate the transport
policy with their IDPs and that there is firm implementation of
the National Development Plan in those municipalities. Thank
you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: We are interacting with
municipalities through the structures of government, for
instance Salga. Our Minmec meetings are attended by MECs, but
also by representatives of Salga, to discuss matters, including
the integration of transport in the rural areas.
I must indicate that the taxis and also the small bus operators
are indeed providing transport in the rural areas. This is
exactly what I was talking about when I responded to the
question that was asked by the former member: We are in constant
communication with the people, including those in the rural
areas.
It is indeed in our interest to ensure that they, too, get
quality transport. We are trying to do that. It is not going to
be easy, but I think we are on our way to achieving our dream of
integrated transport, both in rural areas and in the urban
areas. I thank you.
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Mr C H H HUNSINGER: Hon Deputy Minister, why are you allowing
the Gauteng province to issue licences illegally, instead of the
appropriate authority: the metropolitan cities? This forces all
Gauteng taxi operators to operate illegally. And, why were
subsidies not part of the initial design?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Sir, I think you must actually
give me that information. I am not aware that Gauteng is issuing
licences illegally. [Interjections.] What exactly do you mean?
The fact of the matter is that when people register their cars
here in Gauteng, it is expensive. Therefore, they go to
provinces that are not expensive to register their cars. That is
the problem and that is the reason why all the trucks in the
Western Cape are registered as GP – as a Gauteng truck – because
registering a car in the Western Cape is expensive.
It is a matter that we are looking into at Minmec level whether we can actually standardise the licensing and the fees
that are paid for licensing. You are not telling us that there
is an office in Gauteng that is actually issuing licences
illegally. Give us the information; we will investigate that.
You are expensive in the Western Cape and therefore people are
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going to other provinces. [Interjections.] That is a fact! I
thank you very much.
Mr M WATERS: Chair, I do not know if the hon Deputy Minister
deliberately misunderstood the question or if she simply did not
understand the question. She did not answer the question that
was put to her about who was issuing licences. It was not about
where people buy licences. Can the hon member please repeat his
question to the Minister?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! No, hon member,
the Deputy Minister has responded to the question. Hon Mbatha,
please proceed.
Mr M S MBATHA: Chairperson, my question to the hon Deputy
Minister is: If possible, would now not be the time for this
government to give the assurance that in this term of office the
issue of the taxi subsidy will be resolved? You have been
talking about this with the taxi owners since 1995. In fact, I
recommend that taxis should have stickers that say, “The ANC
government never loved us.”
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Unfortunately for you, sir,
they will not accept that. As the Department of Transport, we
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are working with the taxi industry. They know exactly what the
problems are in the taxi industry. The fact that as taxi owners
they are used to cashing in money in the evening makes
subsidisation very difficult.
We have said they must look into the issue of co-operatives so
that they work together and then we could actually fund that. We
have put a number of proposals before the taxi industry and they
are discussing those. We are attending their conferences. We
have said they must look into the recapitalisation programme,
for instance. We have extended it by two years and we are in
constant discussion with them.
They know that this government cares. They know that the
recapitalisation is actually talking to that. They know that we
intend to assist and to subsidise them. And they know that we
are interacting with them. So, they will definitely not accept
what you are saying. They will not; I can tell you that. Thank
you very much. [Applause.]
Reasons for failure by government departments to pay timeously
moneys owed and payable to small businesses
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221.
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Mr A M Shaik Emam (NFP) asked the Minister of Small Business
Development:
(1) Has she been informed of the reasons why R600 million,
owed
and
payable
by
government
departments
to
small
businesses, were not paid timeously to businesses within
the prescribed 30-day period;
(2) what are the consequences for those who are responsible
for such payments and who fail to comply;
(3) has any action been taken against those who fail to
comply; if not, why not; if so, what action?
NO2252E
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: House Chair, may I
indicate upfront that the question is taken very seriously by us
in the department, because we understand very well what it means
for small businesses not to be paid on time. I can even
personalise it by saying that my grandmother was a small
business person who did not have any institutional support or
bank support and I can imagine what it would have done to her if
she was not paid the money that was owed to her. That would have
meant that she would not even have been able to pay my school
fees.
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We therefore agree with hon Shaik Emam that this is an important
issue, which is of interest to every one of us. We think the
issue of timely payment is linked to human dignity. It affects
cash flow and thus the survival of the enterprise. As such, it
is in our collective interest to solve this problem.
As a department, we are in the process of developing systems
that will enable us to capture the necessary information
relating to late payment. We are aware of the challenges facing
small enterprises and co-operatives. We also note that there are
regulations in the Public Finance Management Act and Municipal
Finance Management Act that provide for the payment of suppliers
within 30 days.
There is a need to strengthen a thorough enforcement mechanism.
Efforts are already under way. For instance, the accounting
officers of both the national and provincial departments have
compliance with the 30-day payment requirement as one of their
key performance areas.
As a department, through the Swedish International Development
Co-operation Agency, Sida, we established a delayed payment
hotline to assist small enterprises who do not get paid in time
and within the 30 days. Until August 2014, the hotline has
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facilitated R400 million to small, medium and micro enterprises,
SMMEs.
In terms of the Medium-Term Strategic Framework, the Department
of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation is also responsible for
developing appropriate sanctions for departments with 20% of
their payments beyond the 30 days limit. The Department of Small
Business Development, together with National Treasury, will
provide support in the form of inputs for the development of
appropriate sanctions, because we need to really strengthen this
arm.
Hon Shaik Emam, we will appreciate further details of the
R600 million referred to because, again, it is of interest. In
this regard, we would like the House to note that the Department
of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation is in the process of
developing sanctions against those departments that fail to
comply with payment within 30 days. Once this process is
complete, we undertake to pursue appropriate action. Thank you,
Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Thank you, hon Minister.
I have been informed that the hon Shelembe will take charge of
the supplementary question on behalf of the hon Shaik Emam. Is
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there a supplementary question? [Interjections.] Order, hon
members!
Mr M L SHELEMBE: Chair, I am partly covered, but ... [Laughter.]
... regarding the action that will be taken against departments
that do not comply with the time limit, how will we know that
action has been taken?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Hon Chair, of
course, at the end of the day, our interests here go beyond this
House. So, when we say we will try to put action in place,
working together with departments, it is the people whom we are
talking about - the small and medium enterprises - that will be
able to judge us and whether we have put action in place that is
effective and efficient or not.
Secondly, we have a portfolio committee, in which members of the
opposition also sit. Obviously the responsibility of that
portfolio committee is to oversee the work we do. So, I am
hoping that members of the opposition who sit in that portfolio
committee will continue to monitor exactly what we are stating
in the House. At the end of the day, it is what we do for the
people concerned, the small and medium enterprises and cooperatives, that is of importance. Thank you. [Applause.]
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Mr R W T CHANCE: Minister, I am very glad to hear you are
concerned about this big problem. I would like to ask what steps
you are taking to name and shame the offending departments so
that there is pressure on them to actually do something about
their impact on small businesses. Also, what research is being
done to establish how many small businesses have closed down as
a result of the long outstanding payment and what effect this
has had on the economy? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Chair, the steps
that we have to take can obviously not be steps that are
enforced by our department only. When we talk about all the
departments in government having the responsibility to make sure
that payments are made, it means the system that we have to put
in place as a department must allow for that. By the way, we
will not be putting a system in place for the first time. There
are systems that have been put in place before, including the
fact that the President himself has made sure that something is
being done in respect of Performance Monitoring and Evaluation.
I agree with you: naming and shaming is very important. I am
sure that once that system is in place, no department will want
to find itself in that space.
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What I would like to say is that, as a department, particularly
because we have the opportunity of sitting in Cabinet and in
other cluster committee meetings, this is where we are going to
be selling this whole issue to our own colleagues, telling them
of the importance of paying small and medium enterprises on
time. Whatever system we are going to put in place, we will have
to make sure that those who are not paying will be answerable
prominently.
Regarding the research, I must say, hon Chance and hon members,
that a lot of research has already been done. I have found this
to be the case since I came into office. The challenge we have
is that this research is to be found in different places. The
research has been done in academic institutions, business and
some government departments.
What we need to do is bring all that information together so
that we are able to use it effectively and so that, when we say
small and medium enterprises have an important role to play in
the economy of the country, these facts and figures show that.
We will collate and put together all that information, which, by
the way, is also able to assist us as we develop our
intervention programmes. Thank you, Chair.
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Ms S J NKOMO: Chair, does the Minister consider the current
broad relationship between government departments and small
private businesses as being favorable and conducive to economic
growth?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, hon
member, for that question. We have indicated that the fact that
government decided to set up a Ministry of Small and Medium
Enterprises was simply because there was recognition of the fact
that the relationship we are talking about is not at the level
where it needs to be. Therefore, having a Ministry that will
focus on small and medium enterprises will give us an
opportunity to develop and strengthen that relationship. That
relationship, in our opinion, is important because, I repeat, it
would be a problem for us to say that small and medium
enterprises are important to the economy without ensuring that
the opportunities that exist for these enterprises are
communicated, nurtured and nursed properly by us and by all
other interested parties. Thank you, Chair.
Mr B D JOSEPH: Is there anything that stops this government and
its entities from paying SMMEs within 14 days after the service
has been rendered, rather than the 30-day rule? Growth is
negatively impacting on the expansion of SMMEs. Why is it that
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this government does not gear its systems towards paying SMMEs
within 14 days if they are serious about promoting SMMEs?
The MINISTER OF SMALL BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I think
I have partly answered that question, but I can still indicate
to the hon member that the commitment we are giving is to turn
this around.
I would also like to say that there is another side to this coin
of late payment. It is indeed partly an issue of government not
paying on time. However, one of the things that we need to work
on - and I am saying this from practical experience and what I
have seen and heard on the ground since I came into the office is the fact that in the process of filling in and filing their
papers, some of our small and medium enterprises do not do it
right. So, it becomes our responsibility to make sure that the
skills exist to inform them of what they need to do.
Another issue is the kind of person who sits behind the desk and
is supposed to be making the payments. Sometimes you find that
our own officials behind the desk do not have a complete
understanding of the implications when they simply shuffle paper
around instead of paying small and medium enterprises. We are
saying that we will put systems in place that not only look at
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what government is supposed to do, but also at how we can
empower our own people to make sure that when they submit, they
submit correctly. On top of that - again, in my experience - is
the fact that our own people are not empowered enough to know
what else they must do when they are not being paid; what are
the systems at their disposal which they can use to expose the
people who are not doing the right thing by paying them at the
right time. Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Before I proceed to the
next question, I want to request the Whips of the parties to
ensure that the member who is standing in to take a
supplementary question on behalf of an absent member is informed
timeously that he or she will be recognised by the Chair so that
the member who is taking the supplementary question is not
caught off guard.
Mr X MABASA: Chairperson, you did not see me indicate that I
wanted to ask a follow-up question. May I please do so now?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order! No, unfortunately
the four supplementary questions allowed by the Rules have been
taken up. Your name came up as the sixth request for a follow-up
question.
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Plans to turn financial situation at Post Office around
266.
Ms M T Kubayi (ANC) asked the Minister of Telecommunications
and Postal Services:
With reference to the on-going strike in the Post Office,
what plans are in place to turn the financial situation at
the Post Office around and build confidence with the public?
NO2452E
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Hon
Chairperson, on Friday the department will be appearing before
the portfolio committee to provide more details on the efforts
that we have been putting in place to ensure that the SA Post
Office, SAPO, is stable and delivers the mail as early as
possible.
Regarding the first issue, namely the ongoing strike, we remain
concerned about the violence and intimidation marking the
current unprotected industrial action. By the way, these strikes
have been going on since 2011. As of this morning, 167 cases
have been reported to the police. These cases include instances
of malicious damage to property, intimidation and assault.
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As the department we met, individually and collectively, with
all the representatives of the leaders of the Post Office to
understand their issues and talk about the implications of the
industrial action. This culminated in us hosting, on 2 October,
a labour summit that included all these stakeholders.
The summit resolved to re-establish the former labour forums,
which were not functioning. There is now a leadership forum,
which is tasked with taking forward all the issues raised by the
workers and management. This forum also has to finalise the
turnaround strategy of the Post Office.
Regarding the second matter, that of the financial aspect of the
Post Office, in February this year the President signed the
proclamation authorising the Special Investigating Unit to
investigate the allegations of serious maladministration in the
affairs of the Post Office. This work will uncover the extent of
the challenges at Sapo and give us the best opportunity to turn
it around for the long term. It is also common cause that the
mail volume has been steadily dropping. Mail volume is the bulk
source of the Post Office’s revenue, amounting to 65%.
In addition to the declining mail volume, Sapo is also required
to fulfil the universal service obligations, which is a
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condition for the licence. These obligations, in monetary terms,
constitute about R473 million per annum in expenditure versus
the revenue of a mere R73 million, leaving a shortfall of about
R400 million.
The regulatory regime currently in place assumes that Sapo will
be provided with a monopoly space for a particular configurated
letter to compensate for this shortfall. However, the difficulty
is that the regulator has to monitor this, which has further
exacerbated this, because there are a lot of piracy operators
out there.
The general trend of providing tariff increases that have
consistently been below the consumer price index has not helped
the situation, either. In an attempt to counter this trend, Sapo
has developed and will continue to develop information and
communications technology-supported alternatives, such as epost, in an attempt to retain major customers and grow new
customers.
Sapo is also offering nontraditional services such as motor
vehicle licences and third-party payment on behalf of
municipalities, which has produced good results as far as
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revenue generation is concerned. Were this to be adopted
nationally, it would add significantly to the revenue of Sapo.
Sapo has also successfully undertaken school textbook
warehousing and distribution in the Northern Cape and Limpopo.
This is where the greatest opportunity lies for the organisation
to grow its revenue. The warehousing and distribution of school
textbooks and medicine on a national scale will certainly assist
the organisation to be financially stable.
Sapo is also planning to distribute set-top boxes. Sapo’s share
of government business is very low compared to other countries
of a similar nature, such as Brazil, India and Turkey. If we
could just increase the government’s share of its business by
20%, government would be able to solve all these problems.
We believe that if these measures were adopted together with ...
Mr M WATERS: Chair, may I rise on a point of order?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you for your
answer, hon Minister.
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The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Thank
you.
Mr M WATERS: Chair, I was rising on Rule 113(3), which limits
the amount of time a Minister has to reply to a question to five
minutes maximum. Thank you, therefore, for stopping the
Minister.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Thank you very much, hon
member, but as you noted, I already asked the Minister to stop.
Is there a supplementary question, hon Kubayi?
Ms M T KUBAYI: Minister, I think it is important to understand
the importance of the Post Office in delivering services to the
people in respect of delivering to people their books,
medication, licences and so on.
In light of the opportunities that exist in respect of vehicle
licences, third-party payments to municipalities and all the
other aspects around ICT, what action will be taken against
people who have been found guilty of wrongdoing after
investigation - that is, if you do investigate? What will be
done to those who are found by the SIU to have breached the law
and not to have followed Treasury regulations? What will happen
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to them? Will there be action against them? Is action currently
being taken against anyone at the Post Office? We need to know
this so that we can build confidence in society that there is no
lawlessness in the Post Office. Are there appeals for those who
are on strike to go back to work?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Hon
Kubayi, as we have said, the forum we established is working
very hard to ensure that workers come back to work, and the
numbers of those who are returning to work are increasing.
With regard to services, as you know the Post Office has the
biggest reach, more so than any other institution in South
Africa, particularly in the rural areas. We are looking at other
additional services, like the payment of pensions, so that we
can extend the services we are giving.
In addition, those who breach the law will be dealt with, either
through the SIU investigation or current issues in which I am
involved.
We are currently looking at leadership issues in the Post
Office. I have written to the board about some of the continuing
irregularities and they are responding. As we finalise those
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responses, we will be able to take action if we find wrongdoing.
We hope to come back to the committee and inform them as soon as
we finalise those processes. Thank you.
Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Chair, through you to the hon Minister, what
is the situation regarding insurance and government culpability
relating to lost mail? How will government be dealing with this?
Hon Kubayi mentioned many of the critical services that have
been disrupted. Also, institutions like Unisa and other distance
learning institutions must have been seriously impacted. How
will students be compensated?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Those
are issues that the leadership and management of the Post Office
will have to deal with. What we have done as a department,
particularly in the case of major customers like Unisa, is that
we have been setting up systems to ensure that Unisa students
receive their mail. Unisa has been co-operative in this regard,
so those students who will be writing exams will get their
assignments in preparation for the exams.
We will continue to engage other major stakeholders in a system
that will ensure that those services do not come to a
standstill. I think that answers your question, hon member.
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Mr M HLENGWA: House Chairperson and Minister, you have covered
the issue of Unisa, but I feel a bit worried when you say “we
will”. It is already exam time and students need their books and
so on. The second area of concern is matriculants who are
applying to institutions of higher learning. Will they get their
mail so that they will receive the necessary responses and
information to fill in their applications correctly?
I think the discussion you had with Unisa needs to be extended
to other tertiary institutions to make sure that we are able to
facilitate the progression of Grade 12 learners to institutions
of higher learning in a seamless manner. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Hon
Hlengwa, let me assure you that we have been interacting and
working with Unisa well in advance in preparation for these
exams. Actually, we have been working very closely with Unisa
for the whole of September. They even allowed us space where we
could sort their post and distribute it from their premises,
where possible.
I have noted your concern about the applications for next year.
We will continue in that regard, but our main intention is to
ensure that all the workers go back to work and deliver the
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services so that we do not encounter problems. The reality is
that it is mainly the poor who use the Post Office for distance
education and the working class who gets medicine through the
Post Office - sickly people. So, the strike is affecting the
poor the most. That is why the social partners in the Post
Office are working very hard to find a lasting solution to this
problem and get workers to go back to work and stop the ongoing
violence. Thank you.
Mr C MACKENZIE: Hon Chairperson, through you to the hon
Minister, I am glad you alluded to leadership at the Post
Office, given that those at the head of the SA Post Office are
leaving the organisation faster than rats off the Titanic. This
includes the group CEO, Christopher Hlekane; the group
executive: mail business, Janras Kotsi; a board member, Nobuhle
Mthethwa, and reportedly a few more.
The board responsible for driving the Sapo turnaround strategy
is presiding over an organisation that cannot even get the
Auditor-General to sign off on their annual reports due to a
lack of financial control and irregular expenditure, not to
mention the SIU and Public Protector investigations. Given that
countless customers and businesses are now looking for
alternative ways of sending their mail, I ask this question on
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behalf of them and so many others who suffered as a result of
this three-month strike: Given the lack of leadership right at
the top - and, like Emperor Nero, even you, Minister, were
absent, fiddling in South Korea while the Post Office burnt who is left as the head of this organisation to implement any
kind of turnaround strategy, and when will this strike end?
Thank you.
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: Hon
House Chair, as I have said, I do not remember myself wandering
around in Korea. I was doing government work.
On the leadership question, there are two processes. There is a
SIU process, which we hope will be finalised soon and action
will be taken. There is a separate process which I, as the
responsible Minister, have instituted to try to make those in
leadership account for their current actions.
As I have said, they are busy responding, because we have to
follow the law. They are currently responding and I am
considering these responses. We will be able to take appropriate
action depending on these responses.
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This strike is not only three months old. As I have said, this
strike has been on and off since 2011. As we have said before,
the challenge was labour brokers. [Interjections.] They brought
most of the problems to the Post Office. When we attempted to
shift away from this, the management of that process was not of
the best. That is why we are talking about the turnaround
strategy.
Lastly, the declining mail volume is a global phenomenon and
that is why we are talking about ways to diversify the services
of the Post Office and modernise them. Thank you.
Progress and challenges in relation to reopening of land claims
267.
Ms P C Ngwenya-Mabila (ANC) asked the Minister of Rural
Development and Land Reform:
In view of the reopening of land claims through the
Commission on Restitution of Land Rights on 1 July 2014,
after the President had assented to the Restitution of Land
Rights Amendment Act, Act 15 of 2014, (a) how many land
claims offices are operational across the country, (b) what
progress has the specified commission made with regard to
receiving new applications, (c) what challenges has the
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specified commission encountered since the reopening of land
claims and (d) what action has the specified commission
taken to address the challenges?
NO2453E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Ms K C
Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, our response is as follows. We
have 14 offices in the country. Three provinces have two offices
each, which are KwaZulu-Natal, the Eastern Cape and the Western
Cape. As at 22 October 2014, 29 466 claims have been received at
the 14 lodgement offices.
The challenges are the following. One, claimants often do not
have substantive evidence and details with regard to the right
to the lost land. Two, unscrupulous persons are trying to use
the process to their own benefit, inter alia by charging
unsuspecting claimants fees under the guise of providing
assistance or selling claim forms. Lastly, due to the limited
number of offices, some delays have been experienced. There is
also a high volume of claims, especially in the initial stage
after the reopening.
Action taken to overcome those challenges are the following.
Various communication activities have been undertaken to ensure
that prospective claimants collate all the information required
29 OCTOBER 2014
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to successfully lodge and claim prior to visiting a lodgement
office to submit their claims. The staff at the lodgement
offices received training to ensure that claims are submitted as
comprehensively as possible. Staff members are also compelled by
the Restitution of Land Rights Amendment Act to assist claimants
in submitting their claims. Sixty trained geometric officers
have been deployed nationally to assist lodgement offices to
properly detail land and property descriptions on all claims.
Mobile communications vehicles have been deployed in each
province to target areas where potential fraud could emerge.
An anticorruption message is part of the communication campaign
for the reopening of claims. In terms of the restitution Act, it
is also illegal for a person to prevent or obstruct another from
lodging a claim and it is illegal to submit a fraudulent claim,
including not disclosing other potentially interested parties.
Any reports of fraud or irregularities are reported to the
communications unit for an immediate media release or other form
of communication to be issued. Four mobile lodgement offices are
in the process of being procured in order to target high-volume
areas to reduce the pressure and potential delay at lodgement
offices. A key message in the communication strategy is that the
claimant has five years to claim and that it is advisable to
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ensure that the claim is submitted with as much supportive
documentation as possible.
Mr P J MNGUNI: Hon House Chair, I rise to ask the hon Deputy
Minister a follow-up question. Thank you very much, Deputy
Minister, for the elaborate response. My follow-up question
seeks to shed more light on cases where land rights cannot be
restored due to changing material conditions over the passage of
time. In what way is the Land Claims Commission actively seeking
to award alternative forms of equitable redress to claimants? Do
they discourage claimants from merely seeking financial awards
that do not address moving the same claimant back to the land?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Ms K C
Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, the court has emphasised the
principle of restoration unless the public interest
considerations suggest otherwise. Where restoration is not
feasible, claimants are offered alternative land or financial
compensation. I thank you.
Mr T C R WALTERS: Hon Chair, there is no doubt that restitution
has to be funded. Given the claims made by the department on the
eve of recent elections of an estimated 397 000 valid land
claims, requiring tens of billions of rands to settle, and given
29 OCTOBER 2014
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that these estimates are not reflected in the department’s
budgetary framework over the next five years, does the Minister
intend to abandon these estimates - maybe they were there for
the elections - as false or untrue or, alternatively, to admit
that the department has no intention to fund restitution
properly?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Ms K C
Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, the hon member is correct.
However, the calculation was done by researchers. It was not
presented by the department. Of course, any person has the right
to do research and make proposals. However, as it stands, the
department - whatever they have planned for each financial year
- is going to deliver, as it has been delivering. I thank you.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, would it
mean then, on the basis of the answer that you have given, that
we do not have claims that are nearing finalisation? Are there
any claims that are nearing finalisation since the offices have
been opened?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Ms K C
Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, there are claims that are nearing
completion, especially claims that were launched somewhere in
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1998. Regarding the new claims that have been launched since the
reopening, nothing is ready because we still have to do the
research. Thank you very much.
Mr J A MNGXITAM: House Chair, the Deputy Minister is either
misleading this House or is badly advised. Actually, there is no
money for restitution. The office of the Auditor-General has
advised our committee on land that we need R4 billion to settle.
We have approved projects since 1998. We are not talking about
the R179 billion that is being asked by the department for new
claims in terms of the lodgement claims that have been reopened.
Here is the scandal: In this financial year, less than
R3 billion has been allocated for the restitution process.
Therefore, when the Deputy Minister says there is money, she
does not know what she is talking about. We do not have the
R4 billion for the projects that have already been approved. We
do not have money for the projects that are currently being
processed. There is no money for the newly opened claims
process.
Therefore, there is a crisis on our hands. This crisis is the
result of a very simple thing: the process of land restitution
in respect of 1913 is about stolen property. Why are we using
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the taxpayer’s money to pay for stolen property? That is it.
[Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT AND LAND REFORM (Ms K C
Mashego-Dlamini): Chairperson, I think the hon member is the
financial officer in the department. [Interjections.]
Nevertheless, I want to indicate that the demand for people to
get land is definitely very high. However, as the state we have
a certain budget that we must spend each and every year. Here we
are doing cash accounting. If you count the billion rands within
the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, I will agree with you. If
you count the money that you are supposed to spend within the
one financial year, I am saying, we are ready, we are spending
and we are going to deliver with what we have. What the hon
member has said politically - that the land has been stolen that is his view. [Applause.]
Role played by department in relation to timeous completion of
projects
223.
Mr S J Masango (DA) asked the Minister of Public Works:
With regard to the projects not completed in time by his
department, (a) what are the reasons for the delays and (b)
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what role does his department play to ensure that projects
are (i) completed on time and (ii) giving value for money?
NO2399E
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon House Chair, with regard to
the projects being delayed and not completed on time, the
Department of Public Works infrastructure delivery model relies
fully on an open-tender market, where reliance is placed
squarely on the performance of the contractors. In the main, the
delays are caused by the poor performance of service providers.
We have observed with concern that contractors, both established
and emerging, tend to experience cash-flow problems when
projects reach 70% of completion. This affects their ability to
pay their subcontractors, who then withhold their services, to
the detriment of the project.
Where we can, the department applies remedies allowed for in the
terms and conditions of the contract, such as performance
penalties. These are sometimes effective if the contractors
manage to correct their financial situation. At the extreme, the
contractor may never recover and this leaves the department with
no option but to cancel the contract. Cancellation of the
contract implies that the department must now embark on a new
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process to secure new contractors, which leads to further
delays.
To improve the situation, firstly, the department is looking at
tightening the tender evaluation and risk assessment process
within the norms of the supply chain management policy.
Secondly, the intention is to interrogate the price offer
received from the bidder scoring the highest points. We will
investigate if the offer price is not on par with the market
cost. Also, there is a scientifically proven process indicating
how the price is determined and whether the offer price will
indeed enable the contractor to complete the project, despite
possible losses arising from poor labour or poor cost management
during the construction.
Processes followed by the department to ensure that projects are
completed on time are the close monitoring of projects by the
department’s project managers and the appointed professional
services team, which includes architects, quantity surveyors and
engineers. Also, monitoring is done through the prescribed
processes of technical and site meetings, which are chaired by
the departmental project managers, and the reporting by service
providers to the department of progress, based on project
milestones, as per the approved programme.
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In terms of giving value for money, service providers are paid
for the value of the work done. In the construction environment,
the contractor prepares and submits his or her claim, which gets
evaluated by the professional quantity surveyor and by some of
the professional teams. Thereafter it is submitted to the
department for approval. So, within the department, prior
certification of the work done is undertaken by the project
manager before payment is made. The evaluation is also verified
by an internal quantity surveyor prior to the final approval for
payment by the delegated authority. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Mr S J MASANGO: Hon Chair and hon Minister, projects that are
delayed are not only a financial burden, but also a violation of
human rights. Therefore, a project not completed, whether it be
a school, hospital, prison or correctional facility, etc, denies
people access to such a facility.
The recent visit by Minmec to the mental health hospital in
Kimberley is just one example. This project was supposed to be
completed in two years, starting in 2011, but it has not been
completed yet. [Interjections.] It is now the third revision of
this project and the budget has escalated from R449 million to
R700 million. Hon Minister, I want to know if this is the only
project, or how many projects are in the same situation, in that
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area? Is this the way the government is treating the vulnerable
people of South Africa?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Unfortunately for you, hon member,
that is a project of the public works department of the Northern
Cape, with its own executive authority and accounting officer.
However, this is a problem and we are dealing with it as the
whole Public Works family - the Minister and the MECs.
How do we deal with these delays, especially once there is
litigation? Once there is litigation over contracts, there is no
way one can just continue and neglect that. One has to respect
the court processes - and court processes, unfortunately, are
not under our control. They can take a year, two or even three
years.
Sometimes people even go to the extent of appealing, and we have
to respect that. This is a matter that we are discussing and we
are looking at very constructive ways of dealing with it. We are
also discussing it with the justice system, talking about how we
are going to ensure that, if there is a delay as a result of
litigation, we will be able to continue with the process and
settle the others, once there is a court outcome. But,
unfortunately, we are tied by the legal processes. Thank you.
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Mr K S MUBU: Hon Minister, have you been able to establish the
overall impact of these delayed projects on the communities
affected? I am thinking about the eradication of mud schools,
for example, and the delays and impact that that has on service
delivery in those areas. But I am also interested to know
whether, when these projects are cancelled, you have been able
to quantify the losses to government that resulted from such
cancellations. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: The overall impact is clear: a
delayed project means delayed service delivery. That is clear.
However, it is because of factors beyond our control. Firstly,
we cannot defy the courts. Secondly, it is about quantifying. We
do quantify this. As in the example that was given by our
colleague here - the one who asked the question - sometimes the
project’s cost ends up being more than its original price. So,
we are able to quantify that, because if there is a delay ...
[Interjections.] Just accept it. If there is a delay, we have to
start advertising from scratch. If you do not do that, it means
you are not respecting the very same processes you have
prescribed.
Sometimes you find that you have to start by breaking down some
parts of the project and start far behind, instead of just
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continuing with the project. Those have all cost implications.
It does happen everywhere. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! May I ask hon
members of the different parties, when they have asked a
question, to please listen to the answers given instead of
interjecting and disturbing the person who is responding to
their question.
Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon House Chair and hon Minister, how will the
department ensure that future projects are completed on time?
What consequences are awaiting those who are responsible for any
delays due to overexpenditure or corruption?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: What we have done is to ensure
that we appoint the right technical people, who must follow
these projects properly. Remember, part of the problem that we
as the department have been facing has been the issue of skilled
personnel in the built environment. We have now made those
appointments in most of the areas. But there is nothing else we
can do - if people are not performing, we have to come up with
penalties. That is what we are doing now. Of course, it does not
mean that we will do away with these. If people have violated
contracts, they have to be dealt with head on. Then it becomes a
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legal process, and then things get delayed. However, if we have
to do that, we will. Thank you.
Mrs E K M MASEHELA: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, given that
delays experienced by the Department of Public Works are in the
main attributed to poor performance by service providers and
subsequently by defaulting subcontractors, what are the
specifics that are being considered to tighten the tender
evaluation and risk assessment processes? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: It is easy. It is just for us to
be robust in the systems we are putting in place and also to
deal with the issues of the risks we are talking about. One part
of the problem is the need to ensure that all the companies
appointed have the necessary skills and that people do not bite
off more than they can chew. That is part of the problem facing
us.
The other side of it is that we need to ensure that we do not
end up with only big companies having all the necessary skills.
How do you also empower the small companies? These are the
issues we are facing, hence we are also talking about issues of
empowerment. We need to make sure that people have the minimum
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skills and that we pair the small companies with the big
companies. That is part of our programme. Thank you.
Implementation of Regulations for Removal of Adverse Credit
Information
268. Ms
P
T
Mantashe
(ANC)
asked
the
Minister
of
Trade
and
Industry:
In
view
Removal
Relating
of
the
of
Adverse
Credit
Paid-up
Judgments,
to
publication
of
the
Regulations
Information
(a)
what
and
is
for
the
Information
the
status
regarding the implementation of the specified regulations,
(b) how many consumers have been affected by the specified
regulations and (c) how does he intend to manage the issue
relating to the retention period to avoid a repeat of this
kind of intervention?
NO2454E
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon Minister, we have now
concluded the follow-up questions on that matter. We are moving
to Question 268. I want to give this announcement regarding the
question asked by hon P T Mantashe to the Minister of Trade and
Industry.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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Neither the Minister of Trade and Industry nor the Deputy
Minister are present today, because they are representing South
Africa at our Trade Expo in China. Since there is no other
Cabinet member to respond on their behalf, it was determined
that previous questions to the Minister of Trade and Industry
will stand over, pending a discussion in the Programme Committee
tomorrow morning. It follows, therefore, that Question 268 by
hon Mantashe will also stand over, pending that discussion. We
will now move to Question 269, which has been asked by hon
Magadzi to the Minister of Transport.
Challenges in relation to roads and related infrastructure in
Kuruman communities
269.
Mr D P Magadzi (ANC) asked the Minister of Transport:
Whether her department has any plans in place to address the
lack of proper access to roads and related infrastructure in
the
Kuruman
communities
in
the
Northern
Cape
that
have
resulted in the suspension of education and school-related
activities; if not, why not; if so, (a) what is the extent
of the road challenges faced by the Kuruman communities, (b)
what steps will she take to resolve these challenges and (c)
what is the link between the intervention with national road
29 OCTOBER 2014
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development and the maintenance programme S’hamba Sonke that
is driven by her department?
NO2455E
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, the
community of Kuruman in the Northern Cape province has been
demanding the upgrade from gravel to tar of the two major access
roads in the Joe Morolong Local Municipality, namely the MR950
and MR947, with a total length of 130 km. The Northern Cape
department of roads and public works and the Sishen Iron Ore
Community Trust, SIOC, signed a memorandum of understanding to
upgrade the 130 km road. The Sishen Iron Ore Community Trust
will upgrade 57 kilometres of the road, whereas the Northern
Cape department of roads and public works will construct 73
kilometres of the road. This project will be implemented over
the next Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period.
The upgrading of the provincial road network is the
responsibility of provincial departments responsible for the
road’s function. Since the roads are provincial roads, upgrading
will be funded through the equitable share allocation for the
Northern Cape department of roads and public works.
In 2011 the national Department of Transport established the
S’hamba Sonke road maintenance programme, which is funded
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through the provincial roads maintenance grant, a schedule 4
conditional grant, which is dedicated to addressing the road
maintenance backlogs of the provincial road networks.
Once the road is upgraded, the S’hamba Sonke road maintenance
programme will be introduced for the maintenance of that
particular road network. I thank you, Chair.
Mr D P MAGADZI: House Chairperson, with regard to what has
happened in Kuruman, we must certainly have learnt certain
lessons, among others, that relate to the relationship and
interaction between the three spheres of government. The
question is: Are we, as government or as the Department of
Transport, able to say that there are other things we can do
going forward so that that tendency does not appear in other
provinces? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, indeed,
there are lessons to be learnt, but it is also important that we
all say, without any fear of contradiction, that children or
learners should not be used when there are issues to be dealt
with in communities. I think we have to say that it is wrong to
prevent children from going to school, because schooling is
29 OCTOBER 2014
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their right and it is enshrined in the Constitution. I think we
have got to say that.
Of course, as the Department of Transport, we are in constant
interaction with provincial structures such as Minmec, as I
indicated in the past. I must also indicate that we have
national, provincial and municipal roads. In an event where
national government has to intervene or assist in a provincial
or municipal road, there are procedures that must be followed.
It does not just happen. There are procedures to follow so that
whatever intervention is required is legitimate. I thank you
very much, House Chairperson.
Nk M S KHAWULA: Sihlalo weNdlu, ngizokhuluma ngesiZulu ngoba
nginguMzulu webafowethu. Mina bengifuna ukubuza la ePhinini
likaNgqongqoshe ukuthi ngibona la kukhulunywa nge-Kuruman uma
kukhulunywa ngemgwaqo yasemakhaya. Bengifuna ukwazi ukuthi ngabe
uNgqongqoshe uthini ngalezi ezinye izindawo zasemakhaya
ezingenayo imigwaqo; nekhona iwubhuqu? Omunye nje umgwaqo
osendaweni okuthiwa yiseMthandeni kwafa abantu kuwo kwangaba
ndaba zalutho ngenxa yokuthi awunakiwe futhi akukho ngisho
izimpawu zomgwaqo.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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Imigwaqo engena emakhaya kobantu ayilungiswa nhlobo, amabhuloho
akhona kuleyo mgwaqo ahamba amanzi ngaphezulu kangangoba
izingane azikwazi ukuhamba kuyo uma ziya ezikoleni. Imigwaqo
ekhona yayilungiswe ngogandaganda kudala kusekhona u-GG.
Ngifuna ukwazi ukuthi ngempela ngempela iNingizimu Afrika iyonke
ngabe uhulumeni uma ekhipha isabelomali ubashiya ngaphandle
ngaliphi abantu abamnyama abasemakhaya ngoba angiyiboni
intuthuko ezindaweni zasemakhaya efana neyabantu
abasemadolobheni? [Ubuwelewele.] (Translation of isiZulu
paragraphs follows.)
[Ms M S KHAWULA: House Chairperson, I’ll speak in isiZulu
because I’m Zulu, colleagues. I want to ask the Deputy Minister
why she only mentions Kuruman when she talks about rural roads.
I would like to know what the Minister has to say about the
other rural areas which have no roads; those that have gravel
roads. In a place called Mthandeni people died because the road
has not been upgraded and there are no road signs.
The roads leading to residential areas in rural areas are not
upgraded at all and the water flows above the bridges in such a
way that the learners are unable to use them when they’re going
to school.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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The roads that are there were constructed using tractors a long
time ago during the GG era.
I would like to know why government singles out the black rural
people in South Africa as a whole when allocating the budget,
because I don’t see any development in rural areas as compared
to urban areas. [Interjections.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member, your
time is up.
Nk M S KHAWULA: Ngiyacela Ngqongqoshe ake nicabangeleni abantu
abasezindaweni ezisemakhaya. Ngabe anikho la ukube abantu
abasezindaweni ezisemakhaya abekho! Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.]
IPHINI LIKANGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUTHUTHA: Sihlalo we Ndlu, umbuzo
obubuziwe ubukhuluma nge-Kuruman, ngakho-ke, siphendula umbuzo
obubuziwe.
Kodwa-ke, kuyiqiniso ukuthi kunezinselele eziphathelene
nemigwaqo esemakhaya futhi kuyiqiniso ukuthi ikhona imali
esiyikhiphayo singuhulumeni ka-S’Hamba Sonke. Le mali iba imali
engaka! Uma ngabe nje sithi yizigidigidi zamarandi eziyisi-9
sisuke sibala zonke izifundazwe. Uma ngabe sithi siyihambise
29 OCTOBER 2014
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kuzo zonke izifundazwe, sisho izifundazwe zonke. Ngakho-ke,
ayeneli le mali njengokufisa kwethu. Yingakho siwuMnyango sibuka
ukuthi kufanele kube nezinye izindlela ezisetshenziswayo ukuze
sibe nemali yokulungisa imigwaqo.
Ngicabanga ukuthi amalungu ale Ndlu ngelinye ilanga ayolithola
ithuba lokuthi sikhulume kahle siyeke ukwenza izinkinga zibe
yindaba yezombusazwe, sibuke ukuthi nje, kahle hle, imigwaqo
yaseNingizimu Afrika njengoba ingamakhilomitha ayi-750 000
ingabe kufanele ixhaswe kanjani ukuze ilungiswe.
Kufanele siyikhulume le ndaba, siyeke ukuphakamisa imimoya;
siyikhulume kahle ukuze siphume nezimpendulo. Ngobe le mali kaS’Hamba Sonke ayaneli ukulungisa lonke uhleloxhumano lwemigwaqo
yesizwe. Sizoyithola kanjani-ke imali eyenele ngoba uma siletha
uhlelo lokuthelelwa kwemigwaqo kuthiwa cha asingalulethi? Kodwa,
emhlabeni la amazwe anemigwaqo emihle nje yilo lolu hlelo
olusebenzayo! [Ubuwelewele.] Vele kusebenza umgomo wokuthelelwa
kwemigwaqo, phecelezi i-user pay principle! Ngiyabonga.
[Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)
[Ms M S KHAWULA: Deputy Minister, please take into consideration
the rural people. You wouldn’t be here if it was not for the
rural people. Thank you. [Applause.]
29 OCTOBER 2014
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, the
question that was asked was about Kuruman, therefore we are
responding to the question that was asked.
However, it is true that there are challenges regarding the
roads in the rural areas and it is also true that there is a
budget which we as government have allocated for the S’hamba
Sonke programme. This budget is huge. If we say it is R9 billion
we are referring to all the provinces. If we say we transferred
it to all the provinces, we mean all the provinces. Therefore,
this money is inadequate for what we wish to do. That is why, as
the department, we are weighing other options in order to have
the funds for the upgrading of our roads.
I think the members of this House will one day get an
opportunity to come together and to communicate well; and they
will stop politicising the challenges and find solutions in
respect of funding the upgrading of South African roads, which
are 750 000 km long.
We must discuss this issue and stop being emotional; we must
discuss it amicably in order to get some answers, because the
S’hamba Sonke programme is not adequate for the upgrading of the
national roads. How are we going to get sufficient funds,
29 OCTOBER 2014
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because if we introduce the e-tolls we are told not to do so? It
is this programme that works in countries that have the best
roads! [Interjections.] Indeed, the user pay principle works.
Thank you. [Applause.]]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Are
there any other supplementary questions?
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: House Chairperson, this community is not
unique in that they were asking for service delivery with regard
to the lack of proper roads and infrastructure. What systems and
mechanisms exist to ensure that all the needy communities are
prioritised in getting their road infrastructure built, and not
just communities that shout and toyi-toyi the loudest?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, the problem
probably is that I responded to the question in isiZulu, because
it was asked in isiZulu. The question that is being asked now is
the very same question that I have just responded to.
We have what is called the S’hamba Sonke road maintenance
programme and grant, which is limited. The grant is transferred
to provinces and provinces are using that money for
29 OCTOBER 2014
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municipalities to maintain and construct roads. It is a fact
that the grant is not adequate.
We also acknowledge the fact that it is not only the Kuruman
community that lacks proper access to roads and related
infrastructure, but other parts of the country as well. We are
attending to that.
I think the question that has been asked is the same question
that was asked by the other member. Of course, the member who
asked the question is also a member of the portfolio committee,
and we do discuss these things in the portfolio committee
meetings, almost every day. I thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr M S MABIKA: House Chairperson, my question to the Deputy
Minister is this: Is it true that in response to the blockages
in respect of Kuruman, the Minister of Transport made a
commitment to the effect that the road in question is going to
be constructed in phases? If that is the case, is this country
ready to respond in a similar way to all the other blockages
that are still going to be taking place because of the road
problems in this country?
29 OCTOBER 2014
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, this is
exactly what I said when I responded to the question. I said:
The construction will be implemented over the next Medium-Term
Expenditure Framework. That is exactly what I said. So, the
answer to the question is, yes.
However, I must indicate something again, because I did not
understand exactly what he meant when he said, “whether it is
going to happen everywhere in the country”. We have a programme
for the year and we have a programme for five years, and in a
programme the provinces will indicate the roads that it is going
to construct and the roads that it is going to maintain.
Based on the business plan received, we transfer the S’hamba
Sonke grant, and the business plan is then submitted to the
national Department of Transport. The business plan will
indicate the road that is going to be constructed, the amount of
money needed for the construction and the time it will take.
The department then transfers that amount of money. We then
monitor whether the budget allocated is spent according to the
province’s business plan. So, this is what we are doing. Of
course, this happens over a period of time because, as I said,
we would need something like R169 billion, just once, for us to
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construct and to maintain South Africa’s roads. In the absence
of adequate funds, we do it in phases and, of course, gradually.
Thank you.
Retail banking services to be offered by Postbank
227.
Mr C MacKenzie (DA) asked the Minister of Telecommunications
and Postal Services:
With regard to the corporatisation of the Post Bank, (a)
what other retail banking services, excluding the savings
and deposit account, will be provided by the Postbank and
(b)
how
offerings
do
the
specified
currently
services
available
from
compare
other
to
banks
similar
that
are
targeting the lower Living Standards Measure?
NO2403E
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: House
Chairperson, the Postbank will continue to offer the card and
the book-based savings and deposit account to individuals and
groups. The Postbank recently introduced a new youth product
called Aspire. In addition, Postbank will enhance customer value
propositions by introducing Internet banking and mobile banking
for customers for their convenience.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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Postbank already has a call centre for interaction with their
customers. The bank needs to position its product and services
to be in line with those offered by others in the banking
industry. So, the introduction of the new channels will increase
accessibility for customers, for example mobile banking,
banking-on-wheels and their own automated teller machines, to
reduce costs to customers.
The South African Postbank Limited Act, as a mandate, also makes
provision for offering learning products to loyal customers
after the banking licence has been obtained. Lending as well as
bank assurance products are also in the pipeline post the
awarding of the licence.
The book-based products of the Postbank are key differentiators
at this stage and the future offerings will continue to cater
for customers in the lower Living Standards Measure, LSM. These
differentiators include being among the most affordable in the
banking industry, leveraging our vast distribution network,
especially in rural areas, and simplifying our products for our
target markets. We are primarily a mass market bank and our
philosophy and ethos differs from the larger established retail
banks, which focus on affluent customers and maximising
shareholder returns. In short, the Postbank will be the people’s
29 OCTOBER 2014
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bank, an affordable developmental bank focusing on the
marginalised and the unbanked. I thank you.
Mr C MACKENZIE: House Chairperson, the collapse of the African
Bank due to reckless lending and adverse risk management created
havoc in financial markets, with all South Africa’s biggest
banks suffering downgrades as a result. This was the latest in a
line of failed banks, including Saambou and Regal, where
billions were lost. We have the Special Investigating Unit and
the Public Protector’s investigations into allegations of
corruption and maladministration. We have chaotic labour
relations, including this last strike, which is the fifth and
the longest in the SA Post Office since 2011. We have the fact
that the Post Office consistently fails to deliver a profit for
its shareholders.
To give some comfort to the South African taxpayer and to
reassure financial markets once the corporatisation of the
Postbank is completed, what steps will the Minister take to
ensure that this entity will not go the same way as other failed
banks and cost investors and taxpayers billions more?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: The
situation with regard to the Postbank, because we are working on
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licence with the Reserve Bank, is that the people who will be
leading this institution are currently undergoing a vetting
process to ensure that they are properly qualified to lead such
an agency. I fully agree with Mr MacKenzie that even commercial
banks like the African Bank have the problem that they can
collapse. However, we are structuring the Postbank to focus not
just on profit maximisation but on the developmental aspect. We
are ensuring that we deal with a segment that has been ignored
for so long: the poor and the rural people who remain unbanked
and the small businesses that remain with no access to finance.
In addition, we want other development banks, for example the
Development Bank of Southern Africa, DBSA, to use the
infrastructure of the Postbank for their lending - once it is
licensed.
Ms K LITCHFIELD-TSHABALALA: Hon Chair, hon Minister, the
Postbank, though aimed at people with a lower living standard,
seems to contextualise itself within mainstream capitalist
banking, whose aim is to profit the bank at the expense of the
debtor. Is there any intention from government to go the social
banking route, as was championed in Indonesia by Muhammad Yunus,
or perhaps any other form of social banking, where the aim is to
profit the debtor at the expense of the bank? That is
empowerment; that is radical. If there is no intention from
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government to do that, could the Minister please tell us why?
Thank you, hon Chair. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: I have
just said that the Postbank, because it is focused on the poor,
the unbanked, will differ from the current commercial banks
because we want it to be most affordable and not focused on
profit maximisation. It will remain a development bank; a
people’s bank of South Africa. That is how it is being
positioned and where we stand today. Thank you.
Ms D R TSOTETSI: Chairperson, Minister, we have seen what
happened to the African Bank. In light of that, what has been
put in place to ensure that the same does not happen to
Postbank? Can the Minister explain why Postbank is so important
while there are banks servicing society? What are the chances of
its survival?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: As I
have said, we are trying to differentiate the bank. In our
application, we are trying to make sure that we meet all the
conditions set by the Reserve Bank. That is why I said the
directors of Postbank are currently being vetted. Currently,
there is a process of trying to separate the assets of the
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Postbank from those of the SA Post Office, Sapo. There is a
process of ensuring that the holding company, which is Sapo,
have proper leadership, and that is what I have dealt with in
the earlier questions.
A culture of saving is very important and we have to encourage
our people – young and old, including the EFF - to not just
spend money but save for the future. [Interjections.] A culture
of saving is critical because, as we know, saving in South
Africa remains at a low level. But we also want the Postbank to
be a lending bank. Where we come from, in the rural areas,
people do not have access to these banking services,
particularly the small business sector and the farming sector.
They must have access to finance so that their projects can grow
and enter into the mainstream of the economy. Thank you very
much.
Mrs M R SHINN: Minister, when the formation of Postbank was
debated two years ago, there was widespread concern, especially
from the financial sector, that it will become the preferred
bank of government and skew the competitive landscape. This will
give Postbank a major client with which to establish itself.
There was talk that government departments would be pressured
into paying their staff’s salaries into Postbank accounts, which
29 OCTOBER 2014
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they will first have to open. At the time the Department of
Public Service and Administration said that if the changes to
the Public Service payroll process were to be made, these
changes would be facilitated by National Treasury and an
appropriate policy would be developed. Minister, what
discussions are under way in the government department or with
National Treasury to formulate a new policy that would make
Postbank the bank of first choice for government business and
the pay point for Public Service salaries?
The MINISTER OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND POSTAL SERVICES: I do not
know of any government policy that says we must only use private
banks for payment of public servants. The government will
continue to use all other banks, including the Postbank, for its
services and it will depend on what they offer to government.
That is all I can say at the moment. All we are doing is trying
to develop a bank that will have most of the facilities of other
banks, but which focuses on the unbanked segment of the society.
In principle there is nothing wrong for any government
department to use Postbank, when the bank has a licence. It will
compete with other banks in that market segment. Thank you very
much.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, the time
allocated for Questions has expired. Outstanding replies
received will be printed in Hansard. We now move to …
[Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam House Chair, I would
like to address you on Rule 109(3) in relation to the substitute
that was sent to the House today by the Department of Trade and
Industry. We did not get to hear the replies, because there was
some confusion about holding over the questions. I want to make
the point that only 50% of the Ministers’ questions were
prioritised in the House today. In fact, had the Deputy Minister
of Economic Development answered questions on behalf of the
Minister and Deputy Minister of Trade and Industry, it would
have been outside the bounds of the Rules, which says, “the
Deputy Minister concerned or another Cabinet member”. Section 91
of the Constitution is very clear on who constitutes the
Cabinet. Deputy Ministers are not Cabinet members.
I would ask that the Presiding Officers urge the Ministers,
perhaps through the leader of government business or the
parliamentary councillor, to ensure that they are present in the
House when questions are put to them. This should be prioritised
because of the limited opportunity we have to engage Ministers.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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Secondly, Deputy Ministers outside of other Ministries should
not be sent here to answer. That is outside the bounds of the
Rules. Thank you. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon Steenhuisen,
thank you very much. I have noted your concern, but you heard
the ruling I made on Question 268. Those matters will be
discussed tomorrow in the Programming Committee. Ministers were
here, save for the few for whom we gave reasons for their
absence.
See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mrs J D KILIAN: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House discusses the financial impact of declining
government subsidies and, on the other hand, expanding
universal service obligations on the sustainability of the SA
Post Office within a highly competitive post environment.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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Mr J A MNGXITAM: House Chair, I rise on behalf of the EFF ...
[Interjections.] She has asked me to speak on her behalf ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Mngxitam?
Mr J A MNGXITAM: I am sorry, Chair. She has asked me to speak on
her behalf.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon Mngxitama, you
can go ahead.
Mr J A MNGXITAM: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next
sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the country’s commitment to the land
reform programme.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: Hon House Chairperson, I hereby give notice
that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf
of the DA ... [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order, hon members! Hon
Mngxitam, take your seat, please! Hon Mngxitam, please take your
seat and do not converse across the chamber with other members.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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There is a member on the platform who is already moving his
motion.
Mr D W MACPHERSON: I hereby give notice that on the next sitting
day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the role President Zuma played in the
continued slowdown of the economy and actions required to
create an enabling environment for our economy as envisaged in
the National Development Plan.
Mr K P SITHOLE: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the
IFP:
That the House debates the extremely poor living conditions of
hundreds of South Africans at various hostel residences
throughout the country.
Ms D Z RANTHO: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates Operation Phakisa.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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Ms D CARTER: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next
sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House debates the inequity of charges by cellular data
providers in South Africa impacting negatively on the youth and
the poor.
Prof N M KHUBISA: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the NFP:
That the House debates the performance of government state
entities.
Ms T E BAKER: Madam House Chair, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the
DA:
That the House debates the long-term impact of dysfunctional
waste water treatment plants and sewage spills into our rivers
and the impact thereof on the deteriorating water quality in
South Africa.
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
29 OCTOBER 2014
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That the House debates the state of the roads and rail network
in South Africa.
Ms L N MJOBO: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the measures geared at encouraging reinvestment in the productive sectors of the domestic economy.
Mrs D ROBINSON: Hon House Chair, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the
DA:
That the House debates the poor state of maintenance courts.
Mr C D KEKANA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates supporting the existing co-operative
banks that are democratically owned and controlled by their
members.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the
ACDP:
That the House debates the safety risks associated with boxing
and other sports and the regulatory measures necessary to
protect the lives of participants.
Ms P NTOBONGWANA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the
EFF:
That the House debates the ability of post-secondary education
and training institutions to absorb and equip students from
secondary schooling with education that is directly linked to
community service and industries.
Mr S G MMUSI: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates measures to deal with and combat the
erosion of the tax base with practices like profit-shifting and
transfer pricing.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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Mr Z S MAKHUBELE: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the
ANC:
That the House debates ways to counter the increase in the
number of contact crimes which affects women, children and the
elderly, especially in rural communities.
Ms E N LOUW: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the EFF:
That the House debates the negative impact of nuclear power to
the environment.
Ms M P MMOLA: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the
next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates the role played by Thusong Service
Centres in benefiting citizens to access services.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the
ANC:
29 OCTOBER 2014
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That the House debates ways to mobilise taxi operators to
submit old taxis for scrapping.
Ms A MATSHOBENI: Hon Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on
the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the
EFF:
That the House notes the death of female boxer Phindile Mwelase
...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon member, we are
busy with notices of motion.
Ms A MATSHOBENI: My apologies, Chair. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members, if a
member has made a mistake, let us acknowledge that as a mistake.
Hon members of the EFF at the back, please do not engage in a
discussion. We have already clarified that a mistake was made.
So, let us proceed.
DEATH OF MICHAEL SATA
(Draft Resolution)
29 OCTOBER 2014
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Mr B A RADEBE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1)
notes that yesterday, Tuesday, 28 October 2014, Zambian
president Michael Sata died in King Edward VII Hospital in
London, where he had been receiving treatment for an
undisclosed illness;
(2)
further notes that the 77-year-old Sata, who once worked
as a railway porter in London, has been in office since
September 2011, after winning a tight presidential race
against the then incumbent Mr Rupiah Banda;
(3)
recalls that Sata left Zambia for medical treatment on 19
October, accompanied by his wife and family;
(4)
further recalls that in his absence, acting president
Edgar Lungu had to lead celebrations to mark the
landlocked nation’s 50th anniversary of independence from
Britain;
(5)
acknowledges that concerns over Sata’s health had been
mounting in the country since June, when he disappeared
29 OCTOBER 2014
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from the public eye without explanation and was then
reported to be receiving medical treatment in Israel; and
(6)
conveys its condolences to his family and to all the
people of Zambia.
Agreed to.
ADRIAN SAVILLE WINS CEEMAN CHAMPIONSHIP AWARD
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1)
notes that South African Adrian Saville was awarded the
2014 CEEMAN Championship Teaching Award, which recognises
outstanding achievements by an individual in teaching;
(2)
further notes that CEEMAN is a global network for
management development institutions with more than 210
institutional and individual members from over 50
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countries in Europe, North America, Latin America, Africa
and Asia;
(3)
also notes that the CEEMAN Awards were established in
2010 to recognise and celebrate outstanding individual
achievements in teaching, research, institutional
management and responsible management education;
(4)
acknowledges that Saville teaches in the fields of
macroeconomics, investment finance and competitive
strategy;
(5)
further acknowledges that Saville being awarded this
prestigious award demonstrates that South African
educators’ research in teachers can indeed ensure that at
all times we compete with the best in the world; and
(6)
congratulates Adrian Saville on this remarkable
achievement and wishes him well in his future endeavours.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members, is
there any objection to the motion?
Mr B A RADEBE: We object. [Interjections.]
29 OCTOBER 2014
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): There is an objection to
the motion, so the motion falls away.
Agreed to.
DEATH OF DEPUTY JUDGE PRESIDENT OF WESTERN CAPE
(Draft Resolution)
Mr N SINGH: Chair, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1)
extends its sincere condolences to the family and
colleagues of former Western Cape Deputy Judge President,
Justice Hannes Fagan, who passed away at his Cape Town
home yesterday;
(2)
recognises the immense contribution that Justice Fagan
made to the judiciary and law in general in South Africa
since he first began practising law as an advocate in
1952;
29 OCTOBER 2014
(3)
PAGE: 99 of 111
commends his tenure as Western Cape Deputy Judge
President and as Inspecting Judge of Prisons; and
(4)
salutes his pioneering work in prison reform initiatives.
Agreed to.
DEATH OF PHINDILE MWELASE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms A MATSHOBENI: Chair, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1)
notes the death of female boxer Phindile Mwelase, who
died on Saturday, 25 October, after failing to emerge
from a two-week-long coma;
(2)
further notes that Phindile, a welterweight boxer, was 31
when she died at the Steve Biko Academic Hospital;
(3)
acknowledges Mwelase’s outstanding participation as a
female boxer; and
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(4)
PAGE: 100 of 111
conveys its condolences to her family and loved ones.
Agreed to.
APPOINTMENT OF GEN RIAH PHIYEGA AS CHAIRPERSON OF SARPCCO
(Draft Resolution)
Ms D Z RANTHO: Chair, I move without notice:
That the House -
(1)
notes that our police commissioner, Gen Riah Phiyega, has
been appointed chairperson of the Southern African
Regional Police Chiefs Co-operation Organisation on
Wednesday, 22 October 2014, at Emperor’s Palace in
Kempton Park; ...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members of the
DA, please be quiet. Hon member, continue with your motion.
Ms D Z RANTHO:
29 OCTOBER 2014
(2)
PAGE: 101 of 111
recalls that Gen Phiyega took over the reins of the
Southern African Development Community region from
Namibia’s Lieutenant-General Sebastian Ndeitunga;
(3)
further recalls that she is the first ever woman
chairperson to lead that organisation;
(4)
acknowledges the challenges she is facing in engaging
with member countries to co-operate on issues such as
cross-border operations, joint training, the
harmonisation of legislation and the sharing of good
practices;
(5)
believes that she will shoulder the task of her new
office and bring about a reduction in crime in the
region;
(6)
congratulates her on the new appointment, wishes her
success and calls on all SADC member states to give her
their unwavering support in her endeavours to implement
mechanisms to fight crime in the region.
29 OCTOBER 2014
PAGE: 102 of 111
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Is there any
objection to the motion? [Interjections.] The objection is noted
and the motion is not agreed to.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Chair, I think it was quite audible when the hon
Mbatha shouted that Gen Phiyega was a murderer. I do not think
it is appropriate. Can you please ask him to withdraw that
remark?
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Hon members, I
have noted the issue raised by hon Kilian. On advice from the
Table, the member referred to is not a member of this House and
therefore ... [Interjections.] Hon member, allow me to finish my
ruling. [Interjections.] I have indicated that I have noted the
matter as raised by hon Kilian. Noting that Gen Phiyega is not a
member of the House, it does not apply to her. However, members
are cautioned to watch the language they use.
CONGRATULATIONS TO JOY SUMMERS AND SUSAN COMRIE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: House Chairperson, I move
without notice:
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That the House –
(1)
notes that two South African journalists, Joy Summers and
Susan Comrie, have been awarded the GE Energy and
Infrastructure Award at the 2014 CNN MultiChoice African
Journalist Awards ceremony held in Dar es Salaam on
Saturday, 18 October 2014;
(2)
further notes that Summers and Comrie, who work for MNet’s Carte Blanche, shared the award for their work
entitled Game of Geysers, Part 1 and 2;
(3)
acknowledges that they were competing with entries from 38
countries across the continent;
(4)
recognises the important work that these two journalists
have done in the field of energy and infrastructure
reporting on the African continent; and
(5)
congratulates Joy Summers and Susan Comrie on this
significant award and wishes them well in their future
endeavours.
Agreed to.
29 OCTOBER 2014
PAGE: 104 of 111
CONGRATULATIONS TO PRESIDENT EVO MORALES ON HIS RE-ELECTION
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N V NQWENISO: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House –
(1)
notes that the present leader and first indigenous
president of Bolivia, Evo Morales, was successfully reelected to lead his nation by the revolutionary people of
Bolivia;
(2)
further notes that President Morales belongs to a new
generation of Latin-American leaders who have abandoned
the notion that there is no alternative to capitalism;
(3)
recognises that Evo Morales has led the successful
reconstruction of the Bolivian economy and society through
radical measures, including land redistribution, the
nationalisation of strategic sectors of the economy and
raising the royalties payable by mining houses;
29 OCTOBER 2014
(4)
PAGE: 105 of 111
further notes that even pro-capitalist global institutions
like the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and
the United Nations have been overwhelmed by the positive
evidence of social development driven by the socialist
programme of Evo Morales;
(5)
observes that the Bolivian economy has been realising high
growth consistently driven not by profits but by a
redistributive economic policy;
(6)
congratulates President Evo Morales on his re-election and
encourages him to move further towards socialism, which
puts people first.
THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Is there any
objection to the motion? [Interjections.] The objection is noted
and the motion is not agreed to.
CONGRATULATIONS TO PROF ABDOOL KARIM ON WINNING SCIENCES AWARD
(Draft Resolution)
Ms S V KALYAN: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
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That the House –
(1)
notes that the distinguished academic and renowned HIV
researcher, Prof Quarraisha Abdool Karim, was awarded the
2014 World Academy of Sciences-Lenovo Prize on
26 October 2014 in Muscat’ Oman;
(2)
further notes that this prestigious international award
was bestowed on Prof Abdool Karim for her groundbreaking
research on HIV prevention in women;
(3)
acknowledges that she has an exemplary record of research
into HIV and tuberculosis and has trained hundreds of
young African scientists to assist with research into
these specific health issues;
(4)
further acknowledges that this international award follows
two other medals that Prof Abdool Karim received from the
Academy of Science of South African and the Medical
Research Council of South African; and
(5)
congratulates Prof Abdool Karim on this remarkable
achievement and thanks her for her continued efforts in
combating the HIV/Aids epidemic.
29 OCTOBER 2014
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Agreed to.
SPAIN’S BRUTAL TREATMENT OF REFUGEES
(Draft Resolution)
Mr B D JOSEPH: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House –
(1)
notes the brutal methods that Spain employs to keep out
undesired African refugees between Spain and Morocco,
Greece and Turkey, Hungary and Sierra Leone;
(2)
further notes that Spain’s coast guards have brutally
intercepted nearly 1 200 migrants in the Straits of
Gibraltar as they were trying to cross into European
territory from North Africa; and
(3)
condemns the racist and brutal means that Europeans employ
to keep away African migrants.
[Applause.]
29 OCTOBER 2014
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Is there any
objection to the motion? [Interjections.] The objection is noted
and the motion is not agreed to.
AFRICAN GOVERNMENTS TO FIND WAYS TO COMBAT EBOLA VIRUS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms P NTOBONGWANA: House Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House –
(1)
notes that the Ebola virus continues to kill, especially
in North Africa;
(2)
further notes that at least 10 141 cases and at least
4 922 deaths have been reported, according to the World
Health Organisation;
(3)
encourages all heads of African states to call an
emergency summit to put together solutions and resources
to face this challenge; and
29 OCTOBER 2014
(4)
PAGE: 109 of 111
further encourages all African governments to find ways to
have a comprehensive and co-ordinated approach to
combating Ebola and to make it a key priority on their
agendas.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Order! Are there any
objections to the motion? [Interjections.] Hon member, are you
objecting?
Ms A STEYN: No, Chair, I rise on a point of clarity: The hon
member said North Africa. I just wanted to check if that is what
the member meant.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon member, is that what
you said? Did you mean North Africa or West Africa?
Ms P NTOBONGWANA: My apologies, I meant West Africa.
[Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): Hon members, is there any
objection to the motion?
Ms A STEYN: Chair, on that point we object, because I do not
think we must talk about that.
29 OCTOBER 2014
PAGE: 110 of 111
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms A T Didiza): There has been an
objection to the motion, so the motion falls away. Is there any
member who wishes to give a motion without notice?
[Interjections.] Order! I take it that no member wishes to move
a further motion without notice.
Hon members, it has been brought to my attention that it is not
the National Assembly Programme Committee, NAPC, that is meeting
tomorrow morning, as I indicated earlier on, but rather the
Joint Programming Committee. Given that the points of order that
were raised relate to National Assembly matters and not to joint
business, the issues touched on will be discussed at the meeting
of the NAPC in the coming week. I just wanted to clarify that
the NAPC was not meeting tomorrow, but the Joint Programming
Committee.
The House adjourned at 17:30.
__________
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
29 OCTOBER 2014
1.
PAGE: 111 of 111
The Minister of Human Settlements
(a)
Annual Performance Plan of the Community Schemes Ombud Service (CSOS) for
2014/2015.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
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