352142-1 - Parliament of South Africa

25 AUGUST 2010
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The House met at 15:05.
The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment
of silence for prayers or meditation.
Cluster 4
Main obstacles to economic integration of SADC
136. Mr B A Radebe (ANC) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:
What are the main obstacles that he has identified to the
economic integration of the Southern African Development
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Hon Speaker and hon Bheki Radebe, South Africa has and continues to
promote deepening regional integration in Southern Africa as an
essential component of our wider international economic relations.
Our approach is founded on two arguments. Firstly, South Africa’s
stability, security and economic development cannot be assured if
the region continues to confront underdevelopment, instability,
poverty and also marginalisation.
Secondly, regional economic co-operation and integration offered an
opportunity for regional industries to overcome the limits of small
national markets and will achieve economies of scale and enhance
competitiveness as a platform to participate in the global economy.
We do need to acknowledge advances that have been achieved in the
integration agenda.
In 2008, under the Southern African Development Community,
Protocol, SADC achieved the status of a Free Trade Area wherein 80%
of goods are traded freely in the region. We are also continuing to
work on the rules of origin, regional standards and trade
facilitation that could consolidate the gains made in opening our
regional trade.
However, in our view, the single most serious constraint to a more
equitable and balanced flow of trade in the region remains
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underdeveloped production structures across SADC economies. In this
context, South Africa has and will continue to advance a work
programme which focuses on regional industrialisation and economic
Regional industrial policies that expand and diversify value-added
production are necessary prerequisites to ensure that SADC countries
are able to take advantage of market openings at the regional level.
I thank you.
Mr B A RADEBE: Thank you, Comrade Deputy Minister, for elaborating
when answering the question.
You have indicated that 80% of the goods flow freely within the SADC
area, but as a country, we know that there are lots of subsidised
goods which are dumped in the SADC countries. There are also lots of
pirated goods which are dumped in the SADC countries. At the end of
the day this undermines the growth of our SADC economy.
Is the department, or the countries involved in SADC, doing anything
about this, like, for example, training the border officers so that
they are able to screen for the goods which are dumped in the SADC
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Speaker, I would like to thank the hon member very much for the
supplementary question.
Indeed, we have continued to experience challenges around subsidised
goods, not only on the continent, but all over the world. Hence, we
are dealing with the rules of origin.
But, in relation to pirated and counterfeit products, the Department
of Trade and Industry is going to launch an antipiracy campaign next
month and we are going to work with the Department of Home Affairs
to engage the South African Revenue Service, component of the
Department of Finance, to ensure that there is border control over
goods that get to our markets via our borders. A programme will be
launched in September and all Members of Parliament will be informed
about it. I thank you.
Mr S J F MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Deputy Minister, you
mentioned the decisions around SADC as a Free Trade Area. How far
along is the government with this, and when will you implement SADC
as a Free Trade Area?
Together with that, can you tell us how government sees the role of
the SADC tribunal in cross-border asset disputes within SADC, such
as the current land claim dispute between Zimbabwe and South African
agri-investors? I thank you.
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Hon Speaker, the hon member has asked me three questions in one.
I will first attend to the issue of the Free Trade Area. I think we
all know that the President was in Namibia recently, where the
ministerial task force reported on the summit on the developments of
regional integration. To us, regional integration cannot be
imperative. Before we deal with issues of industrialisation, before
we can even look at issues of the tribunal, it is very important for
South Africa to concentrate on building strong regional industries.
I think issues of the tribunal will be addressed as and when the
report has been tabled.
On the issues of Zimbabwe, I think the President gave an adequate
report of what was discussed at the summit. I thank you.
Ms C M P KOTSI: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Deputy Minister, you have
mentioned how the free trade is going to take place. I want to raise
the fact that there are two bodies, the Southern African Customs
Union, and also SADC, running the economy. In terms of harmonisation
and integration, how does Sacu affect SADC as a whole? How would
that affect the work that needs to be done? We know that there are
countries who signed the Electronic Passport, ePass, with other
countries. How does that integration affect that relationship? I
thank you.
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Thank you, Speaker. Hon Kotsi, you have has raised a very important
question about how the ePass is affecting our regional economies. As
you are aware, South Africa has not signed this ePass. As a member
of SADC, it is very important for us to discuss industrial
harmonisation. Hence the engagement continues, in order for us to
help the poorer countries to industrialise, so as to avoid the
situation where there is an over dependency on our markets. There
are frequent engagements on the matter.
At the last meeting Lesotho acceded that it is very important for us
to hold back on the issues of the ePass until we, as SADC countries,
have agreed on the matter.
We will engage the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa,
Comesa, for instance, in order to have the entire continent, not
only the region, harmonising its trade. I thank you.
Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Deputy Minister,
you have now dealt with the obstacles to the economic integration of
SADC. If we understand the obstacles so well, why has South Africa’s
role in driving the previously much-acclaimed New Partnership for
Africa’s Development, Nepad – which is another initiative of
regional integration – lost so much steam over the last two years? I
thank you.
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Hon Speaker, this is a normative statement; it’s not based on facts.
We have not yet lost steam. South Africa is keen on engagements.
Hence, the Minister of Trade and Industry has been engaging
individual countries to try and solve this matter. I thank you.
Effect of job losses on department’s position regarding intended
wage subsidy
Mr A Louw (DA) asked the Minister of Labour:
Whether the impact of job losses, especially amongst the
youth, has had any effect on his department’s position on the
intended wage subsidy mentioned by the Minister of Finance in
his February 2010 Budget Speech; if not, (a) why not and (b)
what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the
relevant details?
The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, young people have been
disproportionately affected by the global crisis that broke out in
2008. Its effect is so serious that, unless action is taken, the
situation of youth unemployment can become untenable and put social
cohesion at risk. In some circles this problem is often colloquially
referred to as the greatest ticking time bomb.
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According to the latest Quarterly Labour Force Survey, the country’s
unemployment rate increased from 25,2% to 25,3% in the second
quarter of 2010. This means that about 4,31 million people are
officially out of work. The situation is even more serious if one
takes into account that some unemployed people have simply given up
trying to find work, and are referred to as discouraged work
The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s
inaugural economic survey of South Africa, which was released on 18
July 2010, indicates that the country has the worst rate of
unemployment amongst youth between the ages of 15 and 24 when
compared to all the countries surveyed. Racial disparities further
compounded the matter, with 53,4% of all young black Africans
between the ages of 15 and 24 being unemployed by the end of 2009.
This is three times worse than the unemployment rate of 14,5% for
young white South Africans.
Young people who lack general or vocational education and work
experience are especially vulnerable to the crisis, and many young
people who are employed are overqualified for the jobs they perform.
As part of our intervention to alleviate youth unemployment, we
introduced apprentice learnerships and internship allowances as a
means of subsidising learners while they undergo training under the
Basic Conditions of Employment Act. The employers also received tax
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allowances under the Income Tax Act administered by Sars. People who
participated in the training of unemployed people also received a
daily allowance. These allowances have since been transferred to the
Department of Higher Education and Training with the Skills
Development Act functions.
To the last question, my answer is no, because the tax system falls
under Treasury, not under the Department of Labour. Thank you.
Mr I M OLLIS: Speaker, I would like to thank the Minister very much
for his words of encouragement for the youth.
However, the ANC’s youth wage subsidy seems to be a lot of talk and
not a lot of action. We are concerned about that action. When are we
going to take action and make that subsidy available? And how much
will that subsidy be per person?
Almost one million people have lost their jobs, and many of those
are young people. The ANC seems to have given them false hope with
this scheme. Only a few thousand people were retrained under the
Training Lay-off Scheme, and only a few were employed for very short
periods of time under the Expanded Public Works Programme. We
believe the ANC has failed the youth of South Africa in this way.
They have been waiting since February when we heard about it in the
Budget Speech. When are we going to have that and how much will it
be per person? Thank you.
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The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, I hope, wish and pray that the
Minister of Finance, who presented the Budget in February, when he
next does so, on page 48 of his Budget Review, will write “the ANC”,
because I’m trying to see where the ANC’s name appears. I thought
this was a way of incorporating anybody. I’m sure you understand
where the ANC stands about the number of things, including myself as
a member of the SACP.
Let me read to the hon member what the Minister of Finance – not the
Minister of Labour – said this year:
The tax system can be used to encourage employment. The
progressive structure of personal income tax and taxable
allowances of up to R30 000 at the start and completion of
learnerships, already provides incentives that support job
And this is on page 48 of the Budget Review 2010. You asked how
much. It is stated here. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH: Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister for the
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I think there were some alarming statistics revealed, hon Minister,
with regard to the rate of unemployment, especially amongst the
What I would like to know is if the Minister of Labour believes that
the measures that are being put in place to ameliorate the parlous
position that the youth find themselves in, will achieve positive
results in the near future. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, I’m happy that the hon member asked
me that question because it is like asking me whether I have hopes
of going to heaven. My answer will be yes, because I must peddle
hope all the time, my brother! There is no way that I can say they
will not bring about positive results. Certainly, there will be
positive results! [Applause.]
Mr D A KGANARE: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Minister, the problem of
unemployment is also exacerbated by employers who are very ruthless
in the manner in which they employ and exploit illegal immigrants.
If you consider restaurants, you will find that a lot of illegal
immigrants have been employed by the restaurant owners, who pay them
peanuts. As a result, that also contributes to the problems of this
country. In this instance, the culprits are really the employers.
So, what I would like to know is what your inspectors are doing to
try to get rid of these ruthless employers.
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The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, the Constitution of the Republic of
South Africa, on page 7, the Bill of Rights, section 9, states that
everyone is equal before the law and has the right to equal
protection and benefit of the law.
If you look on page 10, section 23 at the section that deals with
labour rights – which I drafted with hon Mbhazima when he was still
a member of the ANC – you will find that it states that everyone has
a right to fair labour practices. Every worker has a right to form
and join a trade union.
Therefore, I agree with you that employers who treat those who come
from other countries in the manner you have described, are wrong and
are violating the Constitution. All that we can do with such
employers is to throw the rule books at them. We prosecute them and
there is nothing else that we can do. We have to do so because they
are promoting xenophobic tendencies and that must not be allowed.
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Thank you, Speaker. Minister, following your
response, we all understand the problem regarding youth
unemployment. The Budget book has, in fact, stated all the obvious.
The question I want to ask concerns the work that has been done
before by the Department of Public Works. The department tried to
capture data in respect of all youth unemployment with a view to, as
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a holding arrangement, putting the unemployed youth into the
department to create jobs and skills.
The question is how many of those youth, whose data has been
captured by the Department of Public Works before, have already been
processed in terms of their skills and reskilling processing?
The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, I doubt whether the Minister of
Public Works is sitting here. I will ask him as soon as we finish
here as to how many he has captured, then I will come back and
answer the hon member.
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Speaker, on a point of order: Is it appropriate
that the hon Minister of Labour ducks behind the Constitution, the
Minister of Public Works, heaven and somebody else – the Minister of
Finance – in order to answer his question? Wouldn’t it be more
appropriate, sir, if, in actual fact, he answered the question
himself in his own words, rather than appealing to all these other
people to assist him?
The SPEAKER: I don’t know what that point is, hon member, but it is
certainly not a point of order.
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Speaker, on a point of order: The hon Minister
has said that he is going to heaven, but does he know that they
don’t allow communists there? [Laughter.]
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The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, all I know is that communists are
allowed in heaven because they are believers. Only atheists are not
allowed in heaven. [Applause.]
The SPEAKER: On that happy note, with all of you going to heaven...
An HON MEMBER: They don’t want to go!
The SPEAKER: We move on. I have on my list that the next department
will be Trade and Industry. Apologies, hon Minister, you will still
go to heaven. Question 139 has been asked by hon Radebe to the
Minister of Trade and Industry, and the question will be responded
to by the hon Deputy Minister.
Positive outcomes for our economy of Global Business Forum DURING
Mr B A Radebe (ANC) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:
What were the positive outcomes for our economy of the Global
Business Forum that was held during the 2010 Fifa World Cup
Soccer tournament?
Hon Speaker, since 1995 the Global Business Forum has convened the
heads of global business, chairmen, presidents and chief executive
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officers of the world’s largest companies to engage on the dynamic
frontiers of international commerce.
From 26 to 28 June 2010, at a time when the eyes of the globe were
on South Africa for its historic moment in the world of sport, the
Global Forum gathered global leaders in Cape Town to focus on
substantive issues and opportunities in the developing world.
It was the first time the Global Forum – which was started by
Fortune – was hosted in Africa, and it was also the first time it
was cohosted by Time and CNN. For Cape Town, the experience was
enhanced by including Time 100 honourees, the world’s most
influential people from the highest ranks of government, science and
technology, business, sports, media, entertainment and
nongovernmental organisations. Their participation yielded rich
insights into the broader interdisciplinary context in which today’s
global companies are operating.
This year’s event was opened by the South African President, Jacob
Zuma, who addressed the forum live via satellite from the G20 summit
in Toronto. It attracted very high profile participants such as
former United States President Bill Clinton, Irish President Mary
Robinson, social activist Graça Machel and CBS Evening News anchor
Katie Couric, as well as a range of influential businesspeople,
including DuPont chief executive officer, Ellen J Kullman; Jim
Walton, president of CNN Worldwide; Enrique Salem, president and
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chief executive officer of Symantec; Royal Dutch Shell chief
executive officer, Peter Voser; Sports Illustrated group editor,
Terry McDonell; and Fortune managing editor, Andy Serwer. Archbishop
Desmond Tutu closed the historic event by offering a benediction and
issuing a challenge to participants to look at driving growth and
investment in Africa and the developing world.
This event was unique in that it was the main event taking place in
South Africa as opposed to being a regional breakaway, and allowed
some of the world’s most influential business decision-makers to
visit the country for the first time and see the opportunities that
South Africa and the continent offer. It also offered unprecedented
and intimate networking with South Africa’s top business luminaries
including intimate dinners in the private homes of South Africa’s
most distinguished citizens. The event received focus coverage by
Time and so on, as well as the international media.
With the Minister of Trade and Industry undertaking more than five
interviews in a two-hour session ... [Time expired.]
Mr B A RADEBE: Hon Speaker and Deputy Minister, I think we have to
acknowledge that the business forum was one the most successful ever
held in the world, and this gave an opportunity to the South African
business leaders and those of the largest companies in the world to
network. Is the department considering the creation of a formal and
permanent relationship between the stakeholders so that things like
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these annual events can be diarised so as to expose Africa forever
to these people? Thank you.
Speaker, it is actually the role of government to ensure that such
investment business meetings occur annually. Based on the
availability of a budget – and I am looking at the Minister of
Finance – I hope that when we speak to him, he will allow us to host
this event annually. I thank you.
The SPEAKER: I have on my list the following speakers: hon M E
Mbili, followed by hon A P van der Wes and the last question goes to
hon C M P Kotsi, in that order. Hon Mbili? He probably raised his
hand and disappeared before the answer was given. We go to the next
speaker on my list, the hon A P van der Wes.
Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Speaker and hon Deputy Minister, the
theme of this conference was “The New Global Opportunity”, and it
focused on the challenge for governments to create opportunities for
economic growth and activity. Yet it seems that some regions in
South Africa offer more opportunities for entrepreneurs than others.
Why is it that a region such as the Western Cape has recovered
faster from the recession than all other provinces? As you know,
employment figures for the Western Cape have been growing while
those of all other regions have been shrinking during the first half
of this year. Thank you.
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Hon Speaker, the hon member is ... [Interjections.]
The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!
... asking me a common sense question. The regions in the country
are not equally benefiting from the economy of the country because
of development. If we narrow demand, the Western Cape attracts more
tourists than any other destination in South Africa ...
... because of the natural resources we possess in the Western Cape
... [Interjections.] ... which we don’t have in the Free State, for
instance. So, it is a given. It is not because of the DA-led
government that you are doing something unique; it is by coincidence
that you happen to lead it.
But, South Africa’s got the potential in all regions to attract more
investments. We are working on that as government, hence the
Industrial Policy Action Plan, Ipap 2, is very clear on our
strategic approach. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
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The SPEAKER: We thank the hon Deputy Minister. The previous speaker
was hon Van der Westhuizen and not Van der Wes. His name was cut off
from my screen. I extend my apologies.
Ms C M P KOTSI: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Deputy Minister, what longterm investment from the manufacturing sector is likely to result
from this gathering, and has any approach been made to the
government by any of the investors in this regard? Thank you.
Thank you, Speaker. Hon member, I think our Ipap 2 document
elaborates on our manufacturing strategy, especially our approach in
the automobile sector. Part of what we will do as a priority is to
ensure that our textiles and clothing are maximised, and we will
attract more investment by going on business delegations and
requesting foreign direct investment in these particular sectors.
So, this is work in progress. I want to urge the hon member to give
us an opportunity to work on this programme and to evaluate us at a
later stage. I thank you.
Contribution of transport to successful 2010 Fifa World Cup soccer
Mr N E Gcwabaza (ANC) asked the Minister of Transport:
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Whether he has made an assessment of the contribution of
transport to the successful hosting of the 2010 Fifa World Cup
Soccer tournament; if not, why not; if so, what lessons has he
drawn from his assessment?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Thank you, hon Speaker. The full
assessment of the role that transport played in the wonderful
success of hosting the 2010 World Cup is a process which we are
still completing. As we speak today, there is a workshop, debriefing
session, of the Department of Transport, relevant agencies and all
of the host cities which will result in a comprehensive assessment.
Of course, the assessment has been ongoing, and was ongoing in the
course of the hosting of the event itself.
First and foremost, I think the basic thing to say is that, despite
a great deal of scepticism before the hosting of the 2010 Fifa World
Cup, transport really came to the party. I think it contributed very
actively to the tremendous success of the 2010 Fifa World Cup.
We are using the World Cup as a catalyst and have refurbished and
produced new stations: King Shaka, Moses Mabhida, Century City here
in Cape Town, Doornfontein and many others.
Our airports are looking fantastic, particularly the big airports.
OR Tambo International Airport had a major refurbishment, Cape Town
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International Airport as well and, of course, there is the brand new
King Shaka airport.
Gautrain - the very first leg of Gautrain between Sandton and the
airport – is proving to be hugely popular and a great success. We
look forward to the completion of the other legs.
I think what is also very important is to say that the success was
possible because the state, in all three spheres, led the process,
but success would not have been possible without also the cooperation of our partners in the private sector.
I would like also to take the opportunity to salute the role of the
SA Bus Owners Association, Saboua, which played a great role in
assisting us and worked very closely with government. Also, the
minibus sector – we often blame the minibus sector, sometimes with
good reason, but I think they also came to the party. Hopefully they
made a lot of money out of the process, but they also co-operated
very effectively with us.
The BRT, Bus Rapid Transit, system’s Rea Vaya proved its worth in
the course of hosting the event in Johannesburg. The very first
beginnings of a BRT system here in Cape Town, with MyCiTi, has also
begun to be rolled out. There is the Gauteng Freeway Project and
many other things.
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Transport is not just about vehicles, it is also about mobility and
access. I think one of the wonderful things that happened during the
World Cup was that people discovered their cities and the
possibility of using public space democratically, nonracially,
deracialising our public spaces and just walking in our cities. For
instance, the Cape Town Fan Walk was one of the great successes of
2010, because people moved about their city. We also need to regard
that as part of transport.
Perhaps that is the real achievement. We need to ask not just what
transport contributed to the World Cup, but what the World Cup
contributed to transport. I think the big thing has been a change in
attitude. We are seeing members of the public who are not used to or
have never used public transport beginning to discover the
realities, possibilities and the democratic pleasure of travelling
with a variety of South Africans in a common form of transport.
These are some of the fantastic gains: the contribution that
transport made to hosting 2010, but also some of the things that
hosting it has contributed to transport, going forward in South
Mr N E GCWABAZA: Thank you, Speaker, thank you, hon Deputy Minister.
Can the Minister confirm that the lessons drawn from the successes
of transport in contributing successfully to the World Cup are also
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going to contribute to the implementation of the National Transport
Master Plan, Natplan, 2050, going forward?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Speaker, NatMap is the National
Transport Master Plan. It consists of research with comprehensive
data about traffic flows and so on. It’s not really a programme for
the transformation of transport and public transport. It’s an
information base. It has not yet gone through Cabinet, nor has it in
particular gone through the Department of Transport.
The lessons drawn from the World Cup are certainly the lessons that
we will actively apply, because this great spirit and approval and
public support for public transport will wither unless we use the
momentum that we’ve now built in the course of the World Cup to
really begin, for instance, to implement effective public transport,
but also to change, deracialise and democratise our public spaces,
our towns and cities.
It is not just the Department of Transport, but government and all
spheres of government that need to draw lessons and really move
forward. Otherwise, what was good about the 2010 hosting will be
forgotten and we will fall back into our old cynicism and our old
separate ways.
Perhaps the key lesson was the importance of the municipal sphere.
One of the big challenges of this World Cup - unlike other World
Cups – was that we had nine host cities. Fifa was very sceptical
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about our ability to host in nine separate cities and to move fans
across quite a large country.
I think that the key contribution of cities – all of the nine host
cities – to planning, regulating and implementing effective public
transport is an important lesson. So, appropriate devolution is a
very important component of providing and maintaining decent public
transport. That is a big lesson that we have learnt.
The SPEAKER: We thank the hon Deputy Minister. I have a long list
here, but I will only take three more speakers. These are hon
B E E Molewa, followed by hon S B Farrow and the last speaker would
be hon Lucas, in that order.
Hon Molewa. We seem to have lost the hon Molewa. We’ll then move on
to hon Farrow.
Mr S B FARROW: Thank you very much, Speaker. Nobody can doubt the
contribution that transport made to the successful hosting of the
2010 Fifa World Cup. Over R13,6 billion was spent, excluding
Gautrain, the airports and the Gauteng Freeway Projects.
If one lesson can be learnt, Deputy Minister, it has to be the
isolated case of the unannounced and unplanned arrivals of aircraft
at King Shaka on 7 July. My understanding of aircraft movements
worldwide is that, prior to departure, a flight plan is lodged with
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the airport control tower that, in turn, then duly informs the
destination or the airport of destination of the estimated time of
arrival, and slots are given, etc.
How did this happen then; that unscheduled aircraft landed there and
were given preference over scheduled aircraft, resulting in hundreds
of fans not seeing their teams play? Do we know who is responsible
for this mess-up, and will the department be conducting an
investigation into it, to ensure that, if we are going to have
future events like we had now, that this will not repeat itself?
Just as a matter of interest, have there been any claims from the
fans in regard to the loss ... [Time expired.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Speaker, I would like to thank hon
Farrow. I was hoping that someone would ask this question. It is
important that we don’t just look at the good things, but also take
note of some of the challenges that we had in the course of hosting
the World Cup.
Yes, indeed the problems at King Shaka International Airport were
caused not by unscheduled or nonscheduled flights that didn’t have
flight plans, but by a backlog that built up as a result of the
semifinal being held here, the evening before, in Cape Town. A whole
host of VIP jets – basically business-type jets – left Cape Town
International Airport late, and therefore arrived late at the other
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end, at King Shaka Airport. This thing caused a problematic knock-on
Basically, as the hon member correctly says, schedules or flight
times were allocated to these aircraft, but the VIPs involved failed
to pitch up in time and flights were delayed by a matter of an hour,
two hours and so forth. I think that the Air Traffic Navigation
Services, ATNS, Airports Company SA, ACSA, and the responsible
authorities were faced with a predicament: They could block those
VIPs - some of them from Fifa, for instance – from flying and
attending, but that would have created an international scandal, in
that it would seem that we were not able to provide transport to
We had hoped that we could then still be able to slot in these
scheduled aircraft – SAA, SA Airways, and others – flying from, for
instance, Johannesburg into the airport.
This problem was then compounded by the fact that, apart from
leaving late and therefore causing a backlog, there was also a
defiance of instructions from the airport to move the aircraft from
King Shaka to the old Durban International Airport. There was
basically defiance in some cases.
Then there were attempts to shift some of those aircraft off onto
another section to create space in the airport, but the engineers
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advised us against doing that because some parts of the very
extensive King Shaka International Airport have reinforced concrete
that had not yet settled. It apparently needs some six months.
So what we were using was fine, and had settled over a six months’,
or whatever it was, period. There were other parts which potentially
could have been used, but which might then have suffered structural
damage if we had moved aircraft onto them.
Also, the final problem was that the SA Air Force had declared nofly zones over the stadiums in the course of matches, and in the
period preceding and following matches as well. Because of the
backlog, it then became increasingly difficult to use King Shaka
Airport. [Time expired.]
Mr E J LUCAS: Thank you, M Speaker. I must say, we all appreciate
what was done and the service rendered for the 2010 Fifa World Cup.
I think it has been highly appreciated. However, I must say that,
after that, the transport system in Durban Metro has gone right back
to where it was prior to the World Cup. And the question arises,
when will the services be restored to the standard we experienced
during the Fifa World Cup, so that all South Africans can benefit
from it?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Well, I don’t expect to go to
heaven and I certainly don’t want to go to heaven if the hon Van der
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Merwe is going to be there, but I certainly want ... [Laughter.] ...
to struggle to create a heaven here on earth, and that would include
eThekwini. I would agree with the hon member that the public
transport situation in eThekwini, as in many of our cities, is far
from ideal.
It is one thing to provide an event-based transport system that
tests your system and tests your abilities. You learn many lessons
from it, as I’ve been trying to say. But it’s another thing to make
sure that ordinary South Africans from Monday to Friday, every week
of the year, every month of the year, have decent public transport.
We can’t say that of any of our cities. That becomes the big
challenge. I think that we are well aware of it, and we need to make
sure that we build on the momentum that we’ve got. So, you are
absolutely right to be critical. Together, we all need to work to
make sure that, from our different corners, we ensure that South
Africans have the kind of accessibility and mobility that they
Mr D A KGANARE: Thank you, Speaker. Hon Deputy Minister, in terms of
the broad principles of the 2010 Transport Action Plan, you have
said that you will accelerate existing transport plans and maximise
existing transport infrastructure; improve public transport and
promote its use; integrate existing transport services and
accelerate implementation of the government’s economic and
sustainable development policies.
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Having taken all these into consideration and acknowledging the
success of the transport programme and the few logistical hitches in
the air transport, can the Minister explain to this House how his
department is going to integrate the Fifa transport programme to
suit the needs of the South African general travellers?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Speaker, I would like to thank hon
Kganare for reminding us of all the principles and also thank him
for congratulating us. But I don’t think it’s the department that
should be congratulated; I think all South Africans should be
congratulated on the success of the 2010 Fifa World Cup, and
therefore also on contributing, in one way or another, to supporting
public transport systems, for instance. That’s very important.
How do we take it forward? Well, that’s exactly what we need to do.
As I said earlier, one of the key things about much public
transport, not all of it, but much public transport, is that it’s
delivered, or not delivered, as the case might be, at the local
level. Therefore, the integration of the different modes, the
planning of public transport, the financing of public transport and
the regulation of public transport need to be, as much as possible,
located in one place.
That is something we as government are very actively pursuing in
terms of, for instance, the National Land Transport Act, which
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envisages devolution, and also the very important Public Transport
Infrastructure Systems Grant, which is a grant for cities. In the
first place we were directing it largely towards the host cities.
So, I think those are the ways in which we hope to begin to
transform - and we are beginning to transform public transport. It’s
a long way to go. We can’t change public transport unless we also
change the horrible apartheid space that we’ve still got in South
Africa. We need to begin to change that, and transport is a lever to
do that.
But, unless the Minister of Human Settlement begins to create
deracialised cities; unless we begin to abolish dormitory townships
and take work closer to people and people closer to work, public
transport will always limp in South Africa.
So, it is a comprehensive effort that we require. We had a glimmer
of what is possible during the 2010 Fifa World Cup, but now we need
to really seriously implement all of these things. That requires all
of us to work together to do that.
Particulars regarding (i) average salary and financial perks of
Eskom’s executive committee members and (ii) salary increases for
executive committee members and ordinary workers
Dr S M van Dyk (DA) asked the Minister of Public Enterprises:
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What were (a) the average salary and (b) any other
financial perks of members of Eskom’s executive committee
in the 2009-10 financial year;
whether she has approved the approximately 83% salary
increase which Eskom’s executive committee has negotiated
for itself this year; if not, why not; if so, (a) what is
the financial impact of this, (b) on what is the approval
of the salary increase based and (c) what are the further
relevant details;
(3) whether Eskom offered its ordinary workers an 8,5% salary
increase over the same period; if not, what is the
position in this regard; if so,
(4) whether she approved this; if not, why not; if so, what
are the relevant details?
executive remuneration is raging internationally and locally, and it
is a very welcome debate.
It is well known that the Department of Public Enterprises has set
up a remuneration panel to review the salaries of senior executives
and the boards at the state-owned enterprises under our domain.
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I am very happy to engage in this debate. But what I find disturbing
in engaging in this debate, is when people do sloppy arithmetic,
just look at figures and then throw things out into the public
domain. I am referring to the allegation that was put out into the
public domain that an 83% salary increase was enjoyed by senior
executives last year. It was rectified by Eskom. Even the media
published those corrections, but it still comes up in this House in
the form of a question. I asked the questioner to please provide me
with the basis of the calculation, and all the questioner could
provide me with was a newspaper article which predates even the
correction made by Eskom.
Let me assure this House that there is no consideration of an 83%
increase for senior executives of Eskom for this year. That was the
question that Dr Van Dyk asked me. Let me further assure the House
that there was not an 83% increase for senior executives at Eskom.
Let me explain where the confusion arose. In the previous financial
year, no Eskom manager received a performance bonus. No bonus was
paid out; it was withheld. There were certain targets put for senior
management to achieve. Senior management achieved that target in
December, and their retrospective bonus was then paid out to them in
relation to that target. Therefore, when the figures were reported
in the annual financial statements, two performance bonuses were
recorded for that one year: One was the retrospective one and the
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other was for this year. What happened was that commentators just
seized those figures and used them to make their calculation of an
83% increase. In actual fact, when you correct this and allocate the
bonuses to their proper years, etc, you will then be faced with an
18,35% increase.
All senior executives, as is common elsewhere in all big
corporations, receive their remuneration on the basis of their
salary, which includes pension, medical aid, etc, and on the basis
of a performance bonus. So, you have to ask questions about how much
the performance bonus has increased from the previous year as well
as how much the salary has increased from the previous year. What
tends to happen ... [Time expired.]
Dr S M VAN DYK: Thank you, Speaker. Minister, we got the information
from the media and the trade unions. So, what you are saying here in
Parliament is that the media and the trade unions are lying to the
public. Be that as it may, Minister, what are the financial perks,
in terms of money, of the executive members of Eskom?
Given the fact that Eskom cannot satisfy the energy needs of South
Africans and the fact that the taxpayer had to absorb a 25% increase
in tariffs - as I got the information - how can a R7 million
remuneration package to the executive members be justified? How can
a huge increase of more than 60% to ordinary workers over the past
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four years – which is almost 40% higher than the consumer price
index – be justified?
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Speaker, I really take exception
to the notion that I am saying the media is lying. I am saying that
sloppy arithmetic was done. Eskom then provided a rectification,
which, Mr Van Dyk, the media carried. The media carried that
rectification. If you did not pick it up or your researcher did not
pick it up, don’t blame the media.
Secondly, you want to know the average salary and the packages. The
average salary of members of Eskom’s executive in 2009-10 was
R2 184 000, and includes that of executive committee members who
were not employed for the full year. If the latter are excluded,
then the average salary equals R2 821 000. An average of R1 001 000
was paid in performance bonuses to those executive committee members
who served a full term, resulting in a total average remuneration
package of R3 822 000. A total amount of R297 000 was paid in
financial perks. Those financial perks refer to a vehicle-operating
fleet card, security at R19 000 per annum, an annual membership of
two professional institutes and a driver from the fleet pool. That
is the full extent of the package to the executives.
Let me add that every Eskom employee gets a 13th salary cheque and a
performance bonus. There is no Eskom employee who does not get a
performance bonus. So, the notion that senior managers are the only
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people getting performance bonuses is completely misguided. As I
have said before, the actual increase that was granted to the top
senior executive committee members was 18,35%.
The unions negotiated, for this coming year, an increase of 9%
together with the R1 500 housing allowance, bearing in mind that the
R9 000 does not include the salary cheque or the performance bonus
13th cheque to which workers will be entitled. Now, I do ...
[Interjections.] [Time expired.]
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Speaker. Minister, for a number of
years, Eskom has consistently performed poorly and lacks the
foresight required to meet its obligations as an electricity
supplier. They showed their best performance when they cried
“unaffordable” when unions demanded a 9% salary increase. Yet the
same Eskom executive committee that cried “unaffordable” to the
unions gave themselves exorbitant salary increases during the past
financial year.
I heard what you said about the percentages, that is why I don’t
mention percentages.
While we welcome the Minister’s announcement that the salaries of
Eskom executives will be reviewed, what I want to know is whether
the hon Minister will put a curb on the salary increases, perks, and
performance bonuses that these executives give themselves and will
also ensure that ordinary workers are paid well by Eskom.
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The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Mr Speaker, can I request that
the hon Meshoe provides me with what he considers to be exorbitant.
This is because it is no good hiding behind adjectives without
giving exact figures. I say this quite sincerely. There is a serious
debate about what is an appropriate executive remuneration policy
for senior executives in this country, both in the public and the
private sector. We need to have that debate, but that debate is not
helped by throwing slogans around in which you cannot justify the
basis on which that was done.
When we talk about the performance of Eskom, let us bear in mind
that it is this very same government that has apologised that it
placed Eskom under undue stress by not allowing it to invest when it
needed to invest in power. This resulted in the power shortages that
we have experienced over the past time.
Let me also just say that, in this last year, Eskom received the
following awards: the Golden Key Award for Public Body of the Year,
awarded by the Human Rights Commission and the Open Democracy Advice
Centre; the international DuPont Annual Safety Award; the Komosa
Award, as an award for creating the greatest job opportunities; the
Fossil Fuel Foundation Award; the Best Deal of 2009 Award by the
Global Trade Review magazine; and the Most Ideal Employer in
Engineering Award, which was a culmination of a student survey
conducted at 23 South African universities, and more than 26 000
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students took part and voted Eskom as the most ideal employer in the
engineering field.
Let us stop harping on Eskom being this complete failure. Let us
acknowledge where failure took place and where government caused the
failure that actually chained Eskom’s hands. Let us look at what has
happened since 2008. What kind of rolling blackouts have there been?
There have not been any. They have been managed under extremely
difficult circumstances. In the two years ahead there will still be
shortages in the provision of power. So, let us start engaging in
this debate in a sensible way without just throwing out pejorative
statements about their performance. [Applause.]
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Thank you, hon Speaker. Hon Minister, the issue I
have is a question about the principle of the rollover of the
performance bonus. I find it a bit strange that, if officials don’t
perform in year one, the bonus is carried over to year two.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Speaker, let me explain that.
What is not clearly understood is that executive remuneration gets
determined in October and not at the beginning of the financial
year. So, when you have your annual financial statements, they often
reflect executive remuneration that spans two years – the previous
year and the year thereafter. That is why the annual financial
statement reflected it in that way, and that is where you had the
addition of a previous dispensation added into the other year
because it fell within that remuneration period.
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The question was not that the executive did not perform, but that
they wanted them to perform better. In fact, what they did achieve –
which was a phenomenal achievement – was a R22 billion saving in
operational costs. That actually provided them with the base to be
able to provide the continuing energy provision for us in this last
period of time. So, it was a significant achievement in that way.
But I do agree with you. I don’t think it’s an absolute ideal state
to be separating these remunerations, but they just felt that they
wanted to do proper performance management and to actually hold
those people to account on the R22 billion.
Mr P VAN DALEN: Mr Speaker, is the Minister prepared to intervene to
ensure that the top structure of Eskom does not pay themselves these
excessive salaries? I will qualify excessive. I think excessive is
three and four times more than what the President earns. I think
that is excessive, taking into account that when government tries to
rationalise these excessive payments, they say you can’t take all
the fringe benefits into account. But when it comes to the normal
person on the street, then all these things are worked in and get
into a percentage that says “we are close to that”. We are fed up
with that. Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Mr Speaker, I am losing my
patience. Can I go and punch him? [Laughter.]
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The SPEAKER: Yes, Minister, after the session. [Laughter.]
The MINISTER OF PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Thank you. We will organise
outside here and we will see who wins on this one. I am asking for
You talk about excessive. Mr Van Dalen; you earn a salary here. To
what extent does that salary exceed the lowest basic salary in this
Parliament? I am not saying that the issue of executive pay is not
something that needs discussion in our country. It is one of the
burning debates, one of the most serious burning debates in our
country. But it is not assisted when these epithets are just flung
out about excessive, exorbitant and whatever, where I have taken
pains to try and explain where this notion of exorbitant and
excessive was actually misguided and is bad arithmetic.
The intervention that I have made is that a remuneration panel is
sitting and they are about to report to me in the next two weeks on
their review of remuneration policies in the state-owned enterprises
under the domain of the Department of Public Enterprises. That is
where my intervention will go. I will look at their recommendations
– those recommendations will be shared with Parliament - and perhaps
it will stimulate a debate that will take us beyond just throwing
insults and epithets and just presuming that, because an executive
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manager earns a good salary, that then is something disgraceful,
immoral and out of order.
I think we need to have these kinds of debate. But I cannot
intervene in terms of saying to Eskom, “you may not pay these
salaries”, because that would undermine the corporate governance
principles under which these institutions operate. I can give
However, bear in mind that we are also mindful of the salaries that
are paid to workers in these institutions. In Transnet and Eskom,
which are two of the biggest employers in this country, a great deal
of attention is paid to these kinds of salaries. You will find that
Eskom and Transnet workers are probably the best paid workers in the
field in South Africa at the moment. Thank you.
Steps taken by department to market and promote Bloodhound
Supersonic Car event
Mrs X C Makasi (ANC) asked the Minister of Tourism:
(a) What has his department done to market and promote the
Bloodhound Supersonic Car event to break the land speed record
and (b) how will this event benefit the people of the Northern
Cape and the country as a whole?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TOURISM: Chairperson, the response of the
department on the Bloodhound Supersonic Car event is as follows.
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Firstly, this is not an event to which the national Department of
Tourism or South African Tourism has sent in a bid; it is
exclusively a provincial event of the department of finance,
economic development and tourism in the Northern Cape. We have been
informed that the department had entered into an agreement to host
the event, and we welcome such initiatives by provincial
departments. Secondly, the second question does not apply because of
the response. Thank you.
Mrs M A A NJOBE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy Minister,
although you say it is an exclusively provincial event, I think that
the national department can probably take an interest and, if
possible, assist in one way or another. Therefore, I will ask my
question. The Black Rock Desert in the United States has become a
landmark for testing experimental, fast land vehicles. It was the
site of the most recent successful attempt on the world land-speed
My question, therefore, is: Will the Bloodhound Supersonic Car event
occur annually, or, rather, should I say: Would you encourage the
province to hold the event annually? Will your department make any
effort to attract other speed car races to the Northern Cape or
would you encourage the Northern Cape to attract other speed car
races to the province? Thank you.
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TOURISM: Hon Chairperson, indeed the national
Department of Tourism is geared to assist every initiative that
brings in tourism to each province of the country. An initiative of
this nature is, of course, going to bring international relations
into the country. The first event that will take place in the
Northern Cape will, of course, bring in a lot of infrastructure into
the area. Definitely, it will be in our interest to encourage that
it should be held most frequently. We cannot guarantee that it will
be annual. But, due to the infrastructure that would have been put
in place, it would be encouraged that it continues.
In each of the provinces they have identified niche markets and the
Northern Cape has also identified this as part of their extreme
sports. Therefore, it is one niche market that we wish to assist
them to build because it is also going to benefit the whole country.
Thank you.
Mr G R KRUMBOCK: Chairperson, I was relieved when I heard the Deputy
Minister saying that we would not, as the Department of Tourism, be
funding this event. It is apparently taking place on a dried-out
desert lake in Mier, which must be the most inaccessible and
inhospitable place in the entire country. But then, in answer to
your next follow-up question, Minister, you said that we would wish
to assist these types of events.
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Now, I’m not quite sure: Are we, as the Department of Tourism,
assisting this event or not? I would have thought that, since we’ve
cut the SA Tourism’s budget by R160 million over the Medium-Term
Expenditure Framework, MTEF, period, this is the last thing we
should be doing, having spent R43 billion remarketing our country,
and then cutting back our advertising budget.
So, can you give us an idea of what the criteria are that the
department is adopting to actually fund these types of events or
not? When do we go ahead and do this? When do we leave it alone and
concentrate on our core business, which is marketing our country
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TOURISM: Chairperson, as I’ve indicated
earlier on, the province has taken an initiative. For initiatives of
this nature, when provinces indicate the need for assistance –
especially an immediate need – it is only then that we consider the
need that has been expressed.
As of now, when they were going about making their explorations
until the time they signed the agreement, there was no specific need
indicated to the department. However, from the information that they
sent to us, we are following up to ensure that the proper processes
are followed. If there are any financial implications, it is only
then that we will be able to make consideration. But, generally, the
whole country is looking into how we can co-ordinate the hosting of
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big events in the country, and that has to be co-ordinated at a
central level.
So, even at this point in time, all is not lost. We are looking at
going into the details of how far they have gone, and at what stage
the event preparations are. It is not necessarily linked to the
budget cuts of SA Tourism. Here we are looking at a province that is
hosting an event whose budget would not necessarily be located at
the agency which is responsible for marketing. Thank you.
Departmental policy on repair of potholes on regional roads
Mr E J Lucas (IFP) asked the Minister of Transport:
Whether it is his department’s policy to treat the repair of
potholes on regional roads as urgent; if not, why not; if so,
how does his department deal with this issue?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: House Chairperson, I hope that the
Bloodhound Supersonic car doesn’t get onto any of our roads, Deputy
Minister. We have enough cowboys on the roads as it is.
Regarding the hon Lucas’ question, I assume by regional roads he
means provincial and subnational roads. Obviously they are not part
of the national department’s competence. But, of course, like all of
South Africa, we are deeply concerned about the condition of many of
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our roads, particularly provincial and local roads. We are deeply
concerned about the potholes in them. For this reason, although it
is not our level of competence, we are working very closely with
other spheres of government and other entities responsible for
For this reason, on 24 and 25 May this year, we had a major Road
Construction and Maintenance Summit, which was convened by the
Department of Transport. Some of the things and resolutions that
emerged from this conference were that, in terms of the maintenance
of our national road network - the road network that is looked after
by the SA National Road Agency Limited, Sanral - the condition of
those roads is generally good to excellent, and there is no
maintenance backlog in terms of funding.
But there is a very, very significant maintenance backlog when it
comes to other roads. The national department, Sanral and other
entities reckon it is about a R70 billion backlog. I’ve heard
figures from our colleagues in the DA suggesting it might be even
higher. The truth is that I do not think any of us are really sure.
But what we do know is that there is a very significant backlog.
How do we practically begin to do something about this and not just
talk about it? Firstly, there needs to be much more efficient
spending. Lots of money that is allocated to other spheres of
government notionally for road maintenance and road construction
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doesn’t end up as tar. It ends up as all kinds of other things and
gets diverted in other directions. So, we need to be much more
efficient about this.
Then there is a tussle between expanding the road system and
preserving what we have. Politicians — all of us — like to cut
ribbons on new roads. Therefore, that is more often sexier than
looking after the network we have. To get the correct balance we
sometimes do need to build new roads, but we also need to look after
what we have.
Apart from the national roads system, what is lacking in our country
is a basic asset management of roads. What is happening? When one
doesn’t have a proper asset management system in place, one doesn’t
know what to prioritise. So, one submits to the pressures that one
hears. For example, if there is a strong constituency in the bus or
minibus sector, one is pressurised into doing something and does it.
This is also linked to doing the right things. Sometimes it’s not
the most intelligent thing to repair the most destroyed road.
Sometimes it’s better to begin to address maintenance issues on a
road that is beginning to deteriorate because then one can, I think,
get some 17 km compared to 1 km for the same amount of money that
you spend looking after something that has become a dust road.
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Critically, we have to begin to shift more freight loads off roads
onto rail. That is why we are working very closely with the Minister
of Public Enterprises and with our colleagues in Transnet to make
sure that we really begin to shape up much more effectively in terms
of Transnet Freight Rail. A lot of the damage being done to roads,
which results in potholes, is caused by very heavy loads travelling
on roads that were not designed for those levels of loads.
[Interjections.] [Time expired.]
Mr E J LUCAS: Thanks, Deputy Minister for the good reply. Whilst we
understand that our regional roads fall under the ambit and control
of the provincial government, we deliberately request the Minister
to step in, because not much has been done to repair these potholes.
We are also pleased to know that there is this summit that took
place because that is encouraging. We are really looking for a
solution to this problem. That is why we are putting this question
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, we obviously don’t
want to be unconstitutional, and we shouldn’t be. But, at the same
time, we must not shirk our responsibilities as the national
department. This means working co-operatively with our colleagues in
all spheres of government and assisting with, amongst other things
which I did not mention, skills issues.
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Many things are often said about public entities. But one of the
public entities performing extremely well – sometimes too well,
because I think we are spending too much money on freeways - is
Sanral. I think there would be a general consensus on that. What we
are increasingly asking Sanral to do is not just to build roads –
not that they do this physically themselves, but they project-manage
– but to also assist other spheres of government to more effectively
look after maintenance, transfer skills and assist with tendering
processes. So, we are looking at other mechanisms as well. But your
point is appreciated, and we absolutely agree with what you are
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Thank you, Chairman. As the Deputy Minister
said, potholes are prevalent throughout South Africa and cause
endless damage to vehicles and even the loss of lives. It has
reached a point where civil society such as insurance companies and
farmers, for example, are now fixing potholes in their respective
areas. This is an indictment on government and its inability to
adequately deal with the backlog that the Minister has mentioned. At
the same time there appears to be confusion as to whether pothole
repairs are a national, provincial or even local government
Will the Minister advise whether he has determined an allocation of
funds from the recently announced dedicated road fund to other tiers
of government for these pothole repairs and whether he will ensure
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that there are mechanisms put in place to ensure that funds are used
as he has mentioned? If so, what are these allocations, and has he
considered the creation of labour-intensive work opportunities from
this exercise? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairman, my thanks to the hon De
Freitas. I am not sure if insurance companies and farmers fit under
the category of civil society. Sometimes I think they are under
uncivil society.
But the point is noted. It is true that nongovernmental entities are
stepping in. There is nothing wrong with that. Nongovernmental
entities are also responsible for considerable damage, very often,
and not insurance companies, but it is in their interest to ensure
that ...
I spent time with the Road Freight Association at the beginning of
this week. I spent quite a lot of time talking to them about their
responsibilities, to ensure that we work together to find ways of
maintaining our road infrastructure. It is in their long-term selfinterest.
Indeed, Minister Ndebele has a good track record of looking at
Expanded Public Works Programmes to ensure that there is maintenance
of roads. When he was the MEC of KwaZulu-Natal he had a wonderful
programme – which is still running – of households on stretches of
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road looking after particular stretches. It is a wonderful model
which we have replicated in a number of other provinces. Certainly
Expanded Public Works Programmes are the way to go. These should not
just be 60 days programmes, but a continuous maintenance of
stretches of roads all year round. This is a very good approach
because a lot of potholes are the result of the failure to do basic
maintenance along the verges of roads, for instance. We need to
clear road verges. We need to empty sewers, gutters and rainwater
drains. If we do not do that, water gets under the surface and
causes a lot of the damage. Those are basic things that do not
require high levels of skill, but they are absolutely important.
On the question of funding road maintenance, we are in discussion
with the National Treasury and the Minister of Finance around the
matter. Minister Ndebele has proposed some kind of ring-fenced road
maintenance fund so that money allocated to that is ring-fenced and
does the job. That is a complicated area; it is not straightforward.
But we are certainly looking energetically at some way of addressing
it financially. Thank you.
Mr L S NGONYAMA: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, I have an issue
with the question of training and experience that you have referred
to with regard to maintenance teams. Has the department ever
considered creating a permanent team that will acquire that
experience over time and be in a position to do the job properly?
Thank you.
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The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chair, as I was trying to say, we
do have such a team. I think there is a wonderful team in terms of
road construction and road maintenance located in Sanral. Sanral was
originally the section that dealt with roads in the old Department
of Transport. It was spun out of the department in the mid-1990s and
became a stand-alone agency. This is one of the positive and
progressive examples. There is a great deal of skill and ability in
terms of tendering processes, project management and looking after
what is the unpopular thing, tolling and so forth - which is also an
important thing in terms of raising money. That is located in
As I said earlier in response to an earlier intervention, what we
want to do now is to try to make sure that the skill which is
located at a national level in Sanral, looking after 16 000 km of
our national road network, also begins to become a skill that gets
transferred to other spheres of government. Yes, indeed we do take
the issue of skills seriously.
Mr S B FARROW: Thank you very much, Chairperson. On the whole issue
of potholes - this brings to mind the Minister of Public Works
sitting next to you there, Deputy Minister - has any research been
done to establish some sort of permanent team such as the one we
recently experienced at the Ugu District Municipality where they
have set up units of entrepreneurs that go around and fix potholes?
I am just wondering whether anything has been done about that
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because, firstly, it provides jobs and, secondly, we will be trying
to get the problems sorted.
But more importantly, when you talk about nongovernmental agencies
that are involved, like insurance companies and farmers, what
indemnity do these people have in case one of those pieces of tar
flies out and hits somebody in the face? There has to be something
in terms of legality and responsibility with regard to the type of
work being undertaken outside of the parameters of the Act. Could
you answer this?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chairperson, to be quite honest, I
am unable to answer the second part of the question. I’m not sure
what the legalities are. It is obviously something we need to look
at, especially if we are asking for other partners to be involved in
assisting us.
I have a word of caution regarding preserving the road network we
have. This relates to an earlier point I was making with regard to
another question. We must be careful that, as a democratic
government, we are not caught into preserving apartheid space and
apartheid privileges. That is another thing we need to throw into
the mix. There are a lot of roads which were built just to service a
couple of farmers, for instance – lovely tarred roads. There are
other roads which were built to service the army during the regional
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war in Southern Africa. We must not assume that we must simply
preserve all of that and not begin to democratise and change space.
Certainly, as the ANC government, we take the issue of potholes and
preserving the road network we have very seriously. But we mustn’t
be caught in a game of simply preserving the past with all its
privileges and skewed geographical realities. That is another
challenge we need to place into the picture when we are looking at
the road network and everything to do with spatiality and the
transformation of the apartheid space, which is still very much with
us in South Africa.
Consideration of sunset clause to terminate affirmative action
Adv A de W Alberts (FF Plus) asked the Minister of Labour:
Whether he is considering a sunset clause to terminate
affirmative action (a) in general and (b) in respect of white
people who have matriculated after 1994; if not, why not, in
each case; if so, what are the relevant details in each case?
The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Sihlalo, ngelishwa lo ngumhluzi wamanqina.
[Chair, unfortunately this is a futile allegation.]
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I am not considering a sunset clause to terminate affirmative
action, both generally and in respect of white people who’ve
matriculated after 1994.
The main aim of the Employment Equity Act is to address imbalances
in the workplace by eliminating unfair discrimination and
introducing affirmative action measures for the equitable
representation of the designated groups at all occupational levels
and categories. In addition, employers are called upon to diversify
their workplaces.
As reflected in the recently published 10th Commission for
Employment Equity Annual Report, there is still a massive
underrepresentation of designated groups in the workplace,
particularly in the private sector. In line with international
trends, government still views affirmative action as a necessary and
an appropriate tool in addressing these imbalances and disparities
in the workplace. In the light of these prevailing inequalities, any
debate about a sunset clause to terminate affirmative action is
completely irrelevant and very premature.
Ke thina sixelelwe ukuba masilibambe lingatshoni. [We have been told
to intensify.]
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Dankie, Voorsitter. [Thank you, Chairperson.] Hon
Minister, I first want to say that, with that attitude, I can assure
you that you will not make it into heaven. [Laughter.]
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Agb Voorsitter, dit is onbillik om voorheen benadeelde jeugdiges te
wil bevoordeel deur ’n nuwe benadeelde groep te skep. Die blanke
matrikulante van vanjaar was twee jaar oud toe die ANC in 1994 aan
bewind gekom het. Hulle het nie die voordele van apartheid nie.
Hulle was nie deel van apartheid nie. Inteendeel, dit is juis hulle
wat sukkel om beurse te kry om aan universiteite te studeer, want
daar is nie geredelik beurse beskikbaar vir blanke studente nie. As
u gaan kyk na die samestelling van die studente op universiteite, is
daar basies nie meer ’n universiteit in Suid-Afrika waar die
meerderheid blank is nie. Swart studente is verreweg in die
Minister, as u een rassegroep wil bevoordeel ten koste van ’n ander
rassegroep, dan is dit mos nou niks anders as rassisme nie. En ...
’n AGB LID: Dis so in die Grondwet!
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Dan is die Grondwet ’n rassistiese grondwet, as
dit is wat die agb Minister of Adjunkminister hier sê. Dan is dit ’n
rassistiese grondwet!
Nou wil ek vir die agb Minister vra of hy die Grondwet wil wysig om
dit reg te stel. Dink u nie dit is onbillik om daarmee voort te gaan
nie? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
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[Hon Chairperson, it is unfair to want to favour previously
disadvantaged youths by creating a new group of people being
disadvantaged. The white matriculants of this year were two years
old when the ANC came to power in 1994; they did not enjoy the
fruits of apartheid. They had no part in apartheid. On the contrary,
they are actually the ones who are struggling to obtain bursaries to
study at universities, because there are not enough bursaries
readily available to white students. If one looks at the composition
of students at universities there is no longer a university in South
Africa where the majority of students are white. Black students are
by far in the majority.
Minister, if you want to favour one racial group to the exclusion of
another racial group, then it is nothing short of racism. And ...
An HON MEMBER: It says so in the Constitution!
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Then the Constitution is a racist Constitution,
if that is what the hon Minister or Deputy Minister is saying. Then
it is a racist Constitution!
Now I want to ask the hon Minister whether he wants to amend the
Constitution to rectify the issue. Don’t you think it is unjust to
continue with this issue?]
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UMPHATHISWA WEZABASEBENZI: Andiyicingi nokuyicinga loo ndebelefele
uyidwabayo. [Kwahlekwa.] Bekumele ukuba abantu abamhlophe ngabona
bayingcangcazelelayo nabayivuzela izinkcwe inkqubo yokukhawulelana
nabo babengenamalungelo ngaphambili, kuba kwamanye amazwe ngabantu
abaligcuntswana abaye benzelelelwe ngolu hlobo thina senzelela ngalo
uninzi kweli lizwe. Besimelwe ke ngoko ukuba sisincamise, sisiphuze
isandla soxolo esisinikwa yi-ANC. Oyena mntu ungazi kungena ezulwini
nguwe, kuba izulu livulelwe bonke abantu, hayi abamhlophe, hayi
abamnyana, hayi abatyheli. UYesu uyabamkela bonke kwisango lezulu.
[Kwahlekwa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: I do not even think about your ineffectual
argument. [Laughter.] White people are supposed to be acknowledging
and embracing the programme of redressing the imbalances of the past
because in other countries only the minority groups are being
catered for, unlike in our country where we focus more on the
majority. We were therefore supposed to accept the olive branch the
ANC is offering us. You are the one who will not enter God’s Kingdom
because God’s Kingdom is open to everybody, black and white, and not
the yellow ones. Jesus welcomes them all into the gates of God’s
Kingdom. [Laughter.]]
Mr I M OLLIS: Minister, if I can get your attention for just a
minute. Your friends in the FF Plus over there seem to only care
about white people all the time. The ANC, on the other hand, seems
to be enriching a few black glitterati. They are the ones who get
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all the contracts and take all the cream of the BEE deals and leave
young South Africans with nothing.
The DA, however, is concerned about all the unemployed people of
South Africa. [Applause.] When will the ANC drop this race-based
redistribution system and focus on the currently disadvantaged
people of all race groups in South Africa, Minister; the currently
disadvantaged people?
UMPHATHISWA WEZEMISEBENZI: Umntu, malungu e-DA, ningabokumqhwabela
ezombela ingcwaba; yingozi loo nto. [Kwahlekwa.] I-ANC, ingekaphathi
kwa ukuphatha, yayinomqulu eyayiwubiza ngokuba nguReady to Govern.
Wena ke ngeloo xesha mhlawumbi wawusathukulul’ emgodini kweny’
indawo endingazi kuyibiza ngegama. Ukuba unokufunda uReady to
Govern, uza kuthi kuwe: (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: DA members, please stop cheering when
someone is heading for a downfall; that is very dangerous.
[Laughter.] The ANC, even before it assumed power, had a document
called Ready to Govern. You were not even born then. If you read
Ready to Govern, it states:]
We do not support giving positions to unqualified people simply on
the grounds of race or gender.
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Into emxinayo ke lo mhlekazi kukumimithekiswa ngamafutha okutyeba
nemali emenza athi nethe. Ixhala lakhe kukuba wafika umnt’ omnyama.
Kwaye uza kufika, mhlekazi, ngoba ilizwe eli lelethu xa sisonke.
Musa ukuba nexhala ke ndod’ akuthi, akukho apho uza kuya khona.
Thina siyi-ANC, asinadabi lokulwa abantu abamhlophe. Kodwa,
ingcinezelo nocalu-calulo, inene umama elele emangcwabeni apha
eNY 5, sizakuzilwa. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa
paragraph follows.)
[What bothers this man is that he is so overwhelmed by wealth and by
being filthy rich. His main concern is the arrival of a black
person. Sir, the black man will indeed arrive, because this country
belongs to all of us. You must not feel threatened, my brother; you
are going nowhere. As the ANC, we do not wage war against white
people. But we will fight against oppression and racism, and that I
swear on my mother’s grave, which is in NY 5. [Applause.]]
Mr E NYEKEMBA: Thank you very much, House Chairperson.
Mphathiswa, mandizibandakanye nawe kwelithi malibanjwe lingatshoni.
[Minister, let me join you in saying, let us intensify our efforts.]
Given the fact that affirmative action is one of the key sections in
the Employment Equity Act, an Act which came about as a result of
the Constitution of the Republic addressing the inequalities, in
your response you have indicated that the Commission on Employment
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Equity, in its 10th report, revealed that there are inequalities in
the workplace. How does the Minister intend to address these
inequalities? What measures does he intend to put in place, because
the Employment Equity Act has been in existence for more than 10
years, as I speak now. Thank you.
UMPHATHISWA WEZEMISEBENZI: Kungekudala amalungu eKomiti ejongene
neMicimbi yeSebe lezaBasebenzi azakuhlangana nezilungiso kuMthetho
woLungelelwaniso ngokwaseNgqeshweni. Sifuna ukuqinisa phaya ngasemva
kanye ukuze izohlwayo zithi xhaxhe ukwenzela ukuba lo ungafuniyo
ukuphumeza umthetho simbambe qha qwaba. Uza kube ukhona; uza kube
ulapha kweli lizwe. Andiyi ndawo mna apha. (Translation of isiXhosa
paragraph follows.)
[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Very soon members of the Portfolio
Committee on Labour will meet to discuss the amendments to the
Employment Equity Act. We want to regulate there so as to ensure
that the punitive measures are more intense so that those who do not
want to implement the Act are arrested. You will be here, in this
country. I am going nowhere.]
Outcomes of audit into Sentech and measures taken to stabilise same
Mr S E Kholwane (ANC) asked the Minister of Communications:
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What (a) are the outcomes of the audit into Sentech that was
commissioned earlier this year and (b) measures has he taken
to stabilise Sentech?
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: House Chair, the audit that the hon
member is referring to was commissioned in 2009. In February 2010, I
released the summary of the report together with its findings. Some
of the outcomes of the audit report include the following: Firstly,
the task team found that Sentech was in urgent need of a turnaround
strategy and that its current position was caused by, amongst other
things, a new legal and regulatory framework that had opened up the
markets; secondly, a misaligned business strategy in support of the
national service delivery agenda; and thirdly, the absence of a
clear and comprehensive information and communications technology,
ICT, industry framework.
The task team also found that the definition of Sentech’s role lies
at the heart of the problem along with the strategies it pursued and
its failure to break into the telecommunications market.
In an endeavour to find a solution, the task team considered four
options. The first option was to reposition Sentech in terms of its
core competence as the broadcasting signal distributor. Secondly,
Sentech was to leverage its core competence to look for
opportunities on the continent where it is already doing business.
The third option was for Sentech to continue with its
diversification strategy of growing the telecommunications business.
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The fourth option was for Sentech to transfer its nonbroadcasting
electronic communications network services, ECNS, and
nonbroadcasting energy and combustion services, ECS, business to
As a measure to stabilise Sentech, I have appointed a new board and
a new chairperson. Further, I hold monthly bilateral meetings with
the board where its strategic interventions to turn Sentech around
are discussed.
Sentech has developed and submitted its corporate plan to the
department. The proposed corporate plan highlights the following:
Firstly, the identification of products or services that are not
profitable and a consideration to either modify or discontinue
services or products; secondly, the identification of product
enhancement to increase profitability; thirdly, the identification
of new products through research and development to fully utilise
the group’s licences; and fourthly, the reduction of nonessential
cost expenditure and development of business cases to support all
capital expenditure.
The board has also instituted measures to restrict cash outflow by
implementing emergency controls such as additional supply-chain
management controls. The expenditure and turnaround committees have
also been established. Additional control and supply-chain
management include, among other things, database clean-up, updating
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the policy regarding supplier criteria and negotiating directly with
suppliers instead of using supplier agents.
The expenditure committee’s role is to ensure that all commitments
and current expenditure are supported by valid contracts and provide
value for money services or goods. It also ensures that supply-chain
management processes have been followed and expenditure is matched
by revenue. Daily own cash balances are monitored to ensure
sufficient cash availability. The turnaround committee’s role is to
assist with initiatives to update all relevant policies, procedures
and processes to alleviate cash flow strain.
Furthermore, the board ... [Time expired.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon Minister, I really did
extend the time by one minute to twenty minutes. So, could those who
deal with responses in our offices please check on the timing of the
questions’ responses.
Mr S E KHOLWANE: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, thanks for your
decisive leadership in appointing the new board for Sentech.
However, one is interested in knowing, given what we have said, how
Sentech is going to succeed, given the fact that no chief executive
officer, CEO, has been appointed to date.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chair, as I have indicated in my
response, I meet Sentech for a bilateral meeting every month, and
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they have informed me that they are just about to complete the
appointment of a CEO. There is an acting CEO; it is not a crisis.
There is an acting CEO at present because after the departure of the
CEO, the chief operations officer, COO, was appointed to that post
but has since resigned. But I am informed by Sentech that they are
in the process of short-listing, and recommendations on the
appointment of a CEO will soon land on my desk. I thank you.
Mrs J D KILIAN: Chairperson, first of all, just to say that the hon
Minister should actually have purchased a red BMW because we can
call him the firefighter Minister.
As far as the Sentech issue is concerned, can I just say that it is
very perturbing that, eight months into the new year, an audit
report that was finalised last year has still not seen the light of
day in its entirety. We have a Minister who had the findings and who
briefed the committee on it, but we need to have the entire
document. So, when will the Minister publish this audit report? Or
is it one of those documents that would not have passed the
censorship test if we had the Protection of Information Bill in
place by now? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chair, perhaps that might be the
case. I have indicated, when that report was given to me, that I do
not intend making it public. You must recall that that was not a
forensic report, but a report by a task team which I had
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established. I indicated in my maiden Budget Vote last year that I
intend establishing a task team that will investigate what we all
perceived to be issues of governance and administration within
Sentech and the South African Broadcasting Corporation.
The report that ensued from there confirmed things that we were
actually worried about. But it was not a forensic audit or a
forensic report: We wanted to act as speedily as possible without
having any witch-hunt against anybody or harassing people, while
ensuring that it enables us to take decisions that we wanted to take
in order to change leadership at Sentech, which is what I did. I
acted decisively, based on that report. But, because of the nature
of that report, there is no way in which it could have been made
public. Of course, perhaps it is quite true that it was open to
legal challenge. We didn’t want that; we wanted a guide, something,
an instrument that would allow us to take action to resolve the
problems at Sentech. Thank you.
Ms L D MAZIBUKO: Mr Chairman, the leaked findings of the ministerial
task team report, which hon Kilian has alluded to and which deals
with the crisis that is currently plaguing Sentech, indicated that
this is a public enterprise that’s in free fall, which, and I quote,
“is in urgent need of a turnaround strategy”.
It is for this reason, Mr Chairman, that we in the DA look forward
to next week’s report-back session when Sentech will have an
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opportunity to brief the portfolio committee on this turnaround plan
and on the restructuring of the executive management. Surely the
time has come for this task team report to be released in full. My
question to the Minister is, how can the parliamentary portfolio
committee be expected to conduct oversight, particularly given the
recent resignation of the acting CEO and the allegations which have
been levelled against the former chief financial officer, CFO? How
can Parliament be expected to conduct effective oversight if it
doesn’t have sight of this crucial report?
If the Minister won’t release the report – and I hear he was very
circuitous in his answer about wanting to get to the root of the
problems – can he elaborate more clearly what the problem is? What
does the department have to hide that would prevent Parliament from
being an effective overseer of this entity? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Chair, I am sure that the hon member
will get all the answers that she needs when Sentech gets the
opportunity to present itself in the following week or so. I have no
doubt that the hon member will be satisfied with the ongoing
positive work that is being done by the board in the attempt to turn
Sentech around. I am confident that the board is in good hands and
that Sentech is on its way to recovery.
I have indicated that I at present have no intention to release the
report, as it is not a forensic report. It does not give the
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confidence that it can withstand the scrutiny of a courtroom. For
instance, people who are mentioned in the report could go to court
and challenge it. But it was a sufficient basis for me upon which to
act in order to try to turn Sentech around. Thank you.
Steps taken to promote awareness of legislation that seeks to
protect the poor and illiterate
Rev K R J Meshoe (ACDP) asked the Minister of Trade and
What steps has he taken to promote awareness of legislation
such as the National Credit Act, Act 34 of 2005, and the
Consumer Protection Act, Act 68 of 2008, that seeks to protect
the rights of the poor and illiterate who sign contracts
without due regard to its “small print”?
Chair, in view of the fact that you said we need to be brief, I will
summarise my response.
The Consumer Protection Act was passed in 2008 and will be enforced
in October 2010. The Office of Consumer Protection, which is in the
Department of Trade and Industry, has implemented different
activities, such as awareness campaigns, media capacity-building, a
return and refund campaign, and business visits to ensure that
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people understand the National Credit Act and the Consumer
Protection Act.
The National Credit Regulator has promoted awareness through
workshops, brochures and annual assessment of the effectiveness of
awareness programmes. I think the hon member will understand that
almost 2 000 workshops have been conducted around the country. I
thank you.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you Deputy
Minister for your answer. Many of our people have lost valuable
assets such as houses and cars because they were made to sign
contracts they either did not fully understand or did not know the
seriousness of what is commonly known as the small print in the
This so-called small print has been a source of pain and frustration
for many consumers who overlooked important information that was
deliberately hidden from them in the small print. How will the
Minister promote and provide further consumer education to people
with a limited ability to read and comprehend contracts written in a
language other than their mother tongue, to ensure that they do not
become victims of small print in contracts that they have to sign? I
thank you.
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Chairperson, I tend to agree with hon Meshoe. In the recent past
people have lost valuable assets because of what is termed “small
print” or “fine print”. In all business transactions that occurred
in the past, sellers used to disregard the fact that they needed to
explain to people what they were about to sign. In the past, many
people actually signed away their rights. That is how businesses
used to operate.
The National Credit Act actually protects the consumers. It is their
legal right to obtain an explanation – in their mother tongue –
about the implications of the fine print of the decision they are
about to take. In the event that somebody has experienced such
misfortune, I suggest that they be sent to the Department of Trade
and Industry, DTI, so that we can deal with the cases as and when
they come before us. I thank you.
Mr A P VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Deputy
Minister, as you can see in the question, the Consumer Protection
Act was passed more than two years ago. One of the ways in which the
Act seeks to protect consumers is through the establishment of a
consumer commission.
While the commission has not yet been established, posts were
recently advertised and the combined remuneration of the posts of
the commissioner and deputy commissioner exceeds R2,2 million. How
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can this amount be justified at a time when government is claiming
to be unable to meet the salary demands of disgruntled public
servants? I thank you.
Chairperson, it is a pity that the hon member is being opportunistic
by raising the issue of the strike when referring to the work of a
commission. We all know that the lifespan of a commission is shortlived and that it warrants certain specific expertise to conduct its
work, which is very hectic in most instances.
If we compare the budget of that commission with the budgets of all
other commissions which were ever established before, and consider
its scope of work, then I think you are being unfair, to say the
least, when you claim that this is a lot of money. I thank you.
Mr L S NGONYAMA: [Interjections.] You are going to burn in heaven.
Chair, my issue, directed at the Minister, is specifically about
what is referred to in section 22 of the Consumer Protection Act. My
issue concerns the use of plain language and is not about the size
of the words – in other words, the small print – it is about the use
of plain language.
What is it that the department is doing about this issue to make
sure that the contracts are in a language that is generally
understandable? We can take it even further and consider the very
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Bills and Acts debated here in Parliament. It is a very serious
issue. Coming up with plain language is what is really pertinent.
Hon Ngonyama, I think you heard that I agreed with hon Meshoe about
the fine print. But, we need to be clear as to what we are talking
about. Concerning plain language, it is the business people who,
when doing their business transactions, do not explain in what we
term plain language. The law dictates that they explain, hence I say
that if there is a specific case where plain language was not used
to explain, it needs to come to us so that we can deal with it
according to the Consumer Protection Act.
It is when people are not given an explanation as to what they are
about to sign, that we need to act. The Consumer Protection Act
actually protects consumers’ rights. If there is a case where it was
not explained to people in plain language, then that case needs to
come forward so that we can deal with it. I thank you.
Mr S J F MARAIS: Chairperson and Deputy Minister, both the Consumer
Protection Act and the National Credit Act have possible unforeseen
and/or unintended consequences. I want to use an example. The used
vehicle industry not only contributes to economic development but
also offers an opportunity to lower-income citizens to acquire cars.
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Until now, cheaper used cars could have been sold on the voetstoots
principle, but, in terms of the Act, the buyer can now return the
vehicle after six months, even if it was not properly maintained.
What measures and remedies are available to protect the interest of
the sellers of goods and services and the grantors of credit?
Chair, it was a new question. Can the hon member repeat it for me
slowly please?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon member, can you please
repeat it?
Mr S J F MARAIS: Yes, I can. As I have said, both the Consumer
Protection Act and the National Credit Act have possible unforeseen
and/or unintended consequences. I used the example of the secondhand or used car industry, where a vehicle can be returned after six
months even if it was not properly maintained. What measures and
remedies are available to protect the interest of the sellers of
goods and services and the grantors of credit?
Chair, we always strike a balance between the interests of people
who are selling goods and services and that of the consumers. Our
department cannot only protect the interests of the sellers at the
expense of the rights of the consumers. In the event that any part
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of legislation has unintended consequences, we need to stipulate
which part of the legislation is subjecting a seller to unintended
consequences. That part will then be subjected to a discussion. I
thank you.
Particulars regarding (i) registration of land returned to claimants
and (ii) security of tenure of residents
Mr R N Cebekhulu (IFP) asked the Minister of Rural Development
and Land Reform:
Whether land returned to claimants in the rural areas is
registered to the amakhosi (chiefs) and/or to specific
persons; if not, what is the position in this regard; if
so, what are the relevant details;
what security of tenure does persons who reside in these
areas have?
the question has two parts. The answer for part one of Question 105
is no. The land is registered to legal entities such as communal
property associations and/or trusts.
The answer to the second part of the question is that security of
tenure of persons in these areas is made possible under the
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provisions of the Informal Land Rights Act and, in the case of
KwaZulu-Natal, the Ingonyama Trust. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr R N CEBEKHULU: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, I just want
to follow up on the issue of areas where, when farms were bought and
people had the right to go back, you would find that the people
simply went into those areas. Who actually has the right to be
there? Mostly, in the state land, people simply just flocked there
and occupied the space. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon Minister, I hope you got
the question? [Interjections.] Oh, is it just a comment?
Mr R N CEBEKHULU: Yes, it is just a comment.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you, hon member.
Mrs A STEYN: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, you have alluded
to the Ingonyama Trust, but there are also other CPAs and trusts
that we know – I think there are more than 3 000 – were registered.
My question is, in light of this predominance of the collective
approach to land reform in South Africa, what mechanisms have been
put in place by the department to ensure that individual members in
these trusts receive security of land rights? I ask this because
there is so much infighting that no one has any security. Thank you,
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the conflicts are caused by many reasons. It’s not so much the
security in the sense of the system; it may be social insecurity in
the sense of conflicts which are caused by various factors. For
example, people often come together from various areas. They were
never a community. If they were a community, it was one or two
generations ago and now they are brought back together because of
the restitution. Now, the CPA tries to bring them together as
The second aspect of this is that, when they come back, they come
back to areas where they were before, and these were communal areas.
CPAs create communal areas within communal areas. That alone
constitutes a source of conflict. There are many other things, but
those are the key reasons for the conflicts. It’s not so much that
there is no security of tenure, because the outer boundary title is
one and all of them belong there. These are matters that need to be
managed by us, particularly looking at the efficacy of the law
itself. Thank you, Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): I have two names from Cope.
Only one can ask a follow-up question. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]
Mr D A KGANARE: Chairperson, after observing all the people who want
to go to heaven, I think it’s going to be a very dangerous place and
I don’t want to go there. [Laughter.]
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Minister, in view of the high rate of rural unemployment,
feminisation of poverty and food insecurity, what is the department
doing to assist women who are still perceived as minors in the rural
areas to have security of tenure, despite what the law says?
well, we have a couple of programmes there. Firstly, the
comprehensive Rural Development Programmes, RDP, projects are
dominated by women so far. Secondly, now, as we speak, we are going
to launch the National Rural Youth Service Corps with 12 000 young
people, and 50% of them are women from all rural wards across the
country. From each rural ward, we have taken four people, one of
whom is a disabled person.
Chair, I would like to take this opportunity to request the hon
members to assist us, because we are looking for about 3 000
disabled people to take part in this programme. At the moment, we
have only 300 people from only rural wards. Thank you, Chairperson.
Ms P P XABA: Hon Chairperson, can the Minister outline how he
intends dealing with the current land tenure system, and what
proposal he has for the future? Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon member at the back,
please switch off the mike. Thank you.
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budget policy speech to the House, we proposed a three-tier system
on land tenure reform and that will be tabled before the House. We
have debated this with farmers and have said that this is the best
way to go. Under the circumstances prevailing now, and given the
history of the leakage of land that would have been returned by
government to those from whom it was acquired, moving forward, the
land — which belongs to the state and the public entities — will be
leased rather than sold. To protect the acquisitions and gains we
are making in terms of land reform, the tenure system will be
leasehold. But in terms of privately owned property, it will be
freehold and, as we have said, we will retain that with limited
The extent to which a commercial farming entity will be limited,
that is, whether it will be a large-scale, medium-scale or smallscale commercial farming entity, will firstly depend on the
commodity that is found in the entity. Secondly, it will be
determined through debate in the Green Paper.
The last tier concerns foreign landownership. Again, that is
privately-owned, whether domestic or international. Thus, we say
that it will emerge and also be affected and its extent limited by
this Act. Additionally, they will have to comply with particular
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conditions and obligations with respect to their compliance with the
land reform regime that will come into place. Thank you, Chair.
Mr G LEKGETHO: Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next
sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates how to develop and create more internships
and learnerships for our youth so as to give them the skills and
experience to compete successfully in the job market.
Thank you.
Dr D T GEORGE: Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move the
following motion on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the latest GDP growth data released by
Statistics SA and proposes immediate measures that can be
implemented to improve economic growth in the near future.
Thank you.
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Mr S B FARROW: Chair, I hereby give notice that I shall move the
following motion on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the issue of the increased number of level
crossing accidents taking place in our country and comes up with
possible solutions to eliminate this problem.
Thank you.
Mr V V MAGAGULA: House Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next
sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the House debates moral regeneration as a vehicle for
building communities grounded on positive values, a caring
society and the pursuit of lasting peace and prosperity in the
Thank you.
Mr V G SMITH: Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting
day of the House I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That this House debates inmate labour and its contribution to
skills transfer, resocialising and reintegration of ex-offenders
into the broader society, as well as its contribution towards
making the Department of Correctional Services self-sufficient.
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Thank you.
Mr T BOTHA: Hon Chair, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting
day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That House debates the horrific loss of life caused by minibustaxi drivers all over the country lacking the advanced skills and
training necessary for the job.
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon House Chairperson, I move
without notice:
That the House —
notes that two South African businesswomen, Sabine Lehmann,
CEO of Table Mountain Cableway Company and Nonkululeko
Gobodo, CEO of Gobodo Incorporated, have been awarded
prestigious awards for their outstanding work in their
respective fields;
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(2) recognises that Sabine Lehmann won CEO Magazine’s 2010 Most
Influential Woman in Business and Government award in the
tourism and leisure category;
further recognises that Nonkululeko Gobodo was awarded the
2010 Woman of Substance Award by the African Women Chartered
Accountants (AWCA) recently, was South Africa’s first black
woman to qualify as a Chartered Accountant (CA) in 1987 and
has been an inspiration and leading voice in the country’s
auditing and advisory industry for the past two decades; and
congratulates both Sabine Lehmann and Nonkululeko Gobodo for
excelling in their respective careers and for being good
role models to young women and girls in South Africa.
Agreed to.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Hon member at the back, we
are now on motions without notice, not notices of motion. Are you on
(Draft Resolution)
Prof L B G NDABANDABA: Hon Chair, I move without notice:
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That this House —
congratulates Miss Faith Muthambi, a member of this
honourable House, for joining the Deputy President at the
University of Venda as a member of council;
notes that Miss Muthambi is only 36 years of age and was
appointed as a member of the university council with effect
from 12 July 2010.
HON MEMBERS: Malibongwe! [Praise!] [Applause.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you.
Prof L B G NDABANDABA: Chair, to proceed ... that the House —
needs to acknowledge that this is an achievement for the
young people of this country and the women of our glorious
movement, the ANC;
further acknowledges that Miss Muthambi is the first and
youngest external member to serve in such a high, decisionmaking body of the University of Venda, and
congratulates her and wishes her the best for the future.
25 AUGUST 2010
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I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman, I rise on a point of order, sir: The hon
Ndabandaba has just proposed a quite remarkable and very pleasant
motion without notice, but I am afraid what he has done, sir, is
indicate to the House, yet again, that there is no discipline on the
side of the ANC. He will know, and certainly, the Chief Whip of the
Majority Party will know, that a motion without notice goes through
the Whippery first of all, and consequently, I need to say that we
cannot support that motion.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We agree. I think there was a
breakdown somewhere. The motion was supposed to be circulated. We
agree that this is out of order.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Thank you. The motion will
therefore not be tabled today. We will have to wait for the next
(Draft Resolution)
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The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chair, I move without notice:
That the House—
notes with great sadness that ten children died and five
were seriously injured when a train hit a taxi at a level
crossing at Bakenskop outside Cape Town in the early hours
of this morning;
further notes that the number of accidents of this nature
has steadily increased over the past few months;
recognises that safety measures relating to level crossings
need to be implemented as a matter of urgency to prevent
tragic accidents of this nature occurring in the future;
further recognises that further rules and regulations need
to be implemented on our roads to reduce the number of
thanks the paramedics who assisted at the scene of this
accident for their efficient service; and
conveys its deepest condolences and sympathies to the
families of the children.
Agreed to.
25 AUGUST 2010
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The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): Is it an objection, hon
Deputy Minister?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: It is just a brief amendment.
Obviously, one supports the motion that has been placed before us.
When we came into the House, the death toll had risen to 10, and so,
we should amend the motion to that effect. We should also note that
in this case, all of the safety barriers and things were in place,
and this was just reckless driving. We do not need to put that into
the motion, but I was listening to the DA MEC Carlisle, who was on
the spot. Basically, in this case, the safety barriers, and so on,
were in place. The booms were down, and this driver just recklessly
went around all of that. So, I think that, in supporting the motion,
one should just amend some of it, if that is possible. However, if
that is not possible, certainly one should support it.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): I will leave it with the
parties. The Deputy Minister has asked that the motion as proposed
be supported with a few amendments. Is it agreed to by all parties?
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
25 AUGUST 2010
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(Draft Resolution)
without notice:
That the House —
congratulates world-renowned athlete Caster Semenya for once
again making South Africa proud after making a triumphant
return to the Olympic Stadium in Berlin, where she cruised to
victory in the women’s 800 metres;
notes that Semenya’s victory is a triumph against all odds,
considering the 11-month lapse when she was forced to miss
many athletics competitions while waiting for the results of
her gender tests; and
wishes Caster all the best in all her upcoming athletics
competitions, including her Diamond League debut in Brussels
on Friday.
Agreed to.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): I would just like to go back
to the previous motion, hon Ian Davidson. I am advised by the NA
Table staff that, if there are any amendments added to a motion that
25 AUGUST 2010
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has already been circulated to parties and agreed to, such
amendments can only be accepted when the motion is withdrawn,
redrafted, recirculated and has come back to the House. I am not
sure, because the Deputy Minister has a request that those light
amendments be added. I see the hand of the Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Chair, in that case I withdraw.
Obviously, it is important that this Parliament, all of us
collectively, express our deep concern and condolences around this
matter. I do not want to keep us from doing that. If it is not
possible to amend it, then certainly, we should not delay passing
this motion.
Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order: I thank the hon
Cronin for his attitude but it is certainly possible if this House
agrees to amend the figure eight to ten. That certainly will satisfy
him. At least it makes the statement factually correct.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr K O Bapela): If that is the case, I think
it is in order. However, the Rules are something else. According to
the Rules, we cannot do it here. We have to redraft it and bring it
back. [Interjections.]
There is another view. We now have another interpretation of the
Rules and I do not know what is happening. The NA Table staff says
that if it is just a number that is being proposed to be amended, we
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can allow it. However, if it is substance, then we cannot allow it.
It is a number? So we agree that a number is added as an amendment,
that there are no objections and that we agree to the motion.
Agreed to.
(Draft Resolution)
without notice:
That the House —
notes the launch of the Africa Centre for Climate and Earth
Systems Science, which will provide regional decision-makers
with reliable climate information, enabling them to balance
developmental needs with responses to threats posed by
environmental change;
further notes that Access is a consortium of research
institutions and agencies that have signed up to contribute
to a whole greater than the sum of their parts including the
25 AUGUST 2010
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Universities of the Witwatersrand, Cape Town, Western Cape,
Pretoria, Stellenbosch, KwaZulu-Natal and Rhodes, along with
the SA Weather Service, SA Biodiversity Institute,
Agricultural Research Council, Geosciences Research Council,
SA Environmental Observation Network, and the hosts of the
centre, the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research
(CSIR), while the secretariat will be set up at the Centre
for High Performance Computing at the CSIR Campus in
Rosebank, Johannesburg; and
welcomes the collaboration amongst our research institutions
which have already implemented a research programme with
several projects focused on a number of earth system issues,
a services programme that will develop a series of products
for use by service providers and an educational programme
that includes a bursary, winter school and a national
master’s degree programme.
Agreed to.
The House adjourned at 17:21.
25 AUGUST 2010
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National Assembly
The Speaker
Request for Assembly to recommend candidate for National Lotteries Board
A letter dated 17 August 2010 has been received from the Minister of Trade and Industry,
requesting the relevant Assembly committee to recommend a candidate who complies with
sections 3(1)(c) and 3(2) of the Lotteries Act, No 57 of 1997, for appointment as a member
of the National Lotteries Board.
Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry for consideration.
Referral to Committees of papers tabled
The following papers are referred to the Standing Committee on Finance for
consideration and report. The reports of the Independent Auditors and the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements are referred to the Committee on Public
Accounts for consideration:
Annual Financial Statements of the Corporation for Public Deposits for 2009-10,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for
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Report and Financial Statements of the Land and Agricultural Development Bank of
South Africa (Land Bank ) for 2009-10, including the Report of the Auditor-General
on the Consolidated Financial Statements for 2009-10 [RP95-2010].
The following papers are referred to the Portfolio Committee on Public Enterprises for
consideration and report. The report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
Statements and Performance Information is referred to the Committee on Public Accounts
for consideration:
Report and Financial Statements of the Broadband Infraco (Pty) Limited for 2009-10,
including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements and
Performance Information for 2009-10 [RP170-2010].
2. Membership of Assembly
The vacancy which occurred in the National Assembly owing to the resignation of Rev H
M Dandala with effect from 15 July 2010, has been filled with effect from 15 July 2010 by
the nomination of Mr M G P Lekota.
Membership of Committees
The following changes have been made to the membership of Committees:
Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development
Fritz, Mr A (Alt)
25 AUGUST 2010
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Portfolio Committee on Rural Development and Land Reform
Balindlela, Ms N
Carter, Ms D
Ad Hoc Committee on Protection of Information Bill
Coetzee, Mr T
Smuts, Mr D
Coetzee, Mr T (Alt)
Swart, Mr S
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Acting Minister of Energy
Amendments to Articles VI and XIV.A of the Statute of the International Atomic Energy
Agency (IAEA), tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.
25 AUGUST 2010
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Explanatory Memorandum to the Amendments to Articles VI and XIV.A of the Statute of
the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).
National Assembly
The Speaker
The Report of the Independent Complaints Directorate on Domestic Violence for the period
July – December 2009, tabled in terms of subsection (4)(a) of the Domestic Violence Act,
1998 (Act No 116 of 1998).