start of day - Parliament of South Africa

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 1 of 94

WEDNESDAY, 9 MAY 2012

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PROCEEDINGS OF EXTENDED PUBLIC COMMITTEE - OLD ASSEMBLY CHAMBER

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Members of the Extended Public Committee met in the Old Assembly

Chamber at 14:01.

House Chairperson Mr C T Frolick, as Chairperson, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 25 – Police, including Vote No 23 – Independent

Police Investigative Directorate:

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson; Deputy Minister of Police, Ms M

M Sotyu; Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Police, Mr L S

Chikunga; Acting National Commissioner of Police, Lt-Gen N

Mkhwanazi; SAPS senior management present; hon Members of

Parliament; strategic partners of the SAPS in the fight against crime; distinguished guests, and ladies and gentlemen, the most defining feature of the South African democratic state is that it champions the aspirations of law-abiding citizens. Its primary task

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 2 of 94 is to work for the realisation of a safe and secure environment for all, particularly women, children, the disabled and the elderly.

Policing is a heavy responsibility. Many a time the police are expected to carry the “sins of the world”. Let me illustrate what I mean by this observation. When citizens and their public representatives disagree on matters pertaining to service delivery, for instance, in most cases one or both parties call on the police to intervene. Police servants end up at the centre of the dispute, engaged in running battles with communities and taking the blame for sins they did not commit.

Regardless of such challenges, the SAPS continues to score positively in the fight against crime, as reflected in the crime statistics of 2011-12 and supported by certain independent roleplayers. Key in all of this have been the strategic partnerships we have cemented with different institutions, civic organisations and the broader public. We would further like to thank those who participated in, and continue to support, our efforts in highlighting the plight of police members who are injured, attacked or die while performing their duty.

We have dubbed this year the Year of the Detective, with a focus on a 10-point plan of priority deliverables.

We will deliberate comprehensively on this theme later on. I would first like to

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 3 of 94 address some of the recent issues that have been topical in the public domain.

Firstly, I want to deal with allegations against the senior management of the SAPS . We have observed and been disturbed by the events over the past few months which have been attributed to the senior management of the SAPS. In the first place, there have been allegations of rendition against the Hawks in Gauteng - the

Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation - in relation to

Zimbabwean nationals. The matter was brought to my attention and I immediately sought clarity from the head of the Hawks, who responded. The Civilian Secretariat for Police is almost done with a preliminary report on this matter. Secondly, I want to use this occasion to refer to another matter that has been in the public domain and involves allegations of murder and torture against members of the DPCI team – the Hawks - in Cato Manor, KwaZulu-Natal.

Any allegation, on any day, involving murder and torture by police officers is a matter that cannot be ignored. That is why we have tasked those who police the police, namely the Independent Police

Investigative Directorate, IPID, together with the team from DPCI

National Office, to investigate these allegations.

Further, I call on certain political commentators, including political parties and the media, to be objective as they exercise their oversight function of the SAPS. You cannot raise issues to do with certain SAPS members, and then try to excuse others when it

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 4 of 94 suits you. We regard this matter and these allegations as extremely serious and are treating them as such.

Thirdly, allegations have been levelled at crime intelligence, in particular at Lt-Gen Richard Mdluli . Regarding the allegations against Lt-Gen Mdluli, I want to say that we will all have to observe the process, which is currently in our criminal justice system, being taken to its logical conclusion. Regarding the current investigations into the Crime Intelligence Division, I have noted the recent utterances, public discussions and, at times, misrepresentation and misunderstanding of SAPS processes by certain members of society, particularly in relation to one of the crucial divisions in our fight against crime, namely crime intelligence.

Allegations were levelled against the division’s head, Lt-Gen

Mdluli. These relate to the mismanagement of a secret fund, nepotism and other matters. The Inspector-General of Intelligence has the legal mandate for oversight of the financial management of crime intelligence. As part of her mandate, she is able to look into any other issue that may arise in the course of such investigation.

Contrary to what the media are saying, this investigation is still in progress. We won’t be subjected to any “paralegal” process, be it in the media or elsewhere.

There have been public spats between people in SAPS senior management, involving unfortunate public accusations and counteraccusations. What seems to have sparked this is a letter that

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 5 of 94 has been widely reported on, which Lt-Gen Mdluli is said to have written to, among others, the Minister of Police. This letter seems to have political connotations and has caused tension within the

SAPS management. It alludes to a conspiracy and some people in management ganging up against him. I have set up a team, led by the

State Law Adviser, to investigate such allegations because they are very serious, given that they suggest police functionaries’ meddling in politics. While this probe is under way, and in consultation with the Acting National Police Commissioner, we have decided that, effective today, Lt-Gen Mdluli should be moved from his current position as Head of Crime Intelligence to another division, as determined by the Acting National Police Commissioner. [Applause.]

To this end, Lt-Gen Mdluli has been informed of the decision and has pledged his support for the process. We shall therefore observe this process and allow it to be carried through without any undue interference.

I am deliberately and purposely clarifying the processes of these current cases and investigations, because for some time there has been a degree of misrepresentation, some false allegations and, to a certain extent, genuine concern about the “goings-on” within the

SAPS. We have resisted temptation and will stick to our principle of respecting all the legal processes of our land.

I will now get back to what I said we would deal with in 2012, which we have declared the Year of the Detective with a focus on the 10-

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 6 of 94 point plan of priority deliverables.

On the occasion of this Budget

Vote in this august House last year we highlighted the fact that we should strengthen the institutions and practices of popular participation. We said:

Our approach must in practice, be premised on the people-centred and people-driven process of transformation. All of society must take part in this national effort, and effective systems of interaction with all social partners must be established.

For this financial year we purposely narrowed our focus to 10 points because we believe not only that they are achievable, but that they must be achieved. We need to place significant focus on government’s five key priorities and direct our energies to be in line with them.

We must build on the progress we have made, while we consolidate the lessons learnt for the safety of our citizens.

The first of those 10 points is the transformation of the SAPS. In this regard we have noticed some progress in certain areas that were untransformed but are now transformed. An example is the Forensic

Science Laboratory. With regard to race and gender, we will continue to ensure that we transform all other aspects of the SAPS.

Enhancing the criminal justice system is another issue. Here we are referring mostly to ICT. We have come up with a two-pronged approach in this regard. First, we sought to address challenges relating to

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 7 of 94 what has been widely reported as corruption and mismanagement in this area. We are emphasising this because, by and large, the biggest chunk of the SAPS budget goes into this area. We have noted that we have not necessarily arrived at the point where we can say that we are getting value for money out of this. Therefore I have instructed the Hawks to delve deep into this area to ensure that what we get from Parliament is utilised wisely. [Applause.]

We have also appointed a new divisional head in this area which has always been a challenge. We have said they have to come up with a strategy within a month that will turn things around, so that we are able to move on from this point.

The next priority is the building of new police stations. With the leases and what has been happening in the police around these matters , we and the Minister of Public Works have come together. We got both our managements working collectively to ensure that at the end of the day the demand out there - which is the need for people to access service in their backyards, where they live - is actually met. That is why we have emphasised that the building of police stations is a priority that needs to be achieved, so that those who have not benefited from such service do in fact benefit.

The next area that we have been confronted with, and which we started to address some time last year, is the manner in which we police public protests. We have secured new equipment that deals

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 8 of 94 with just that issue, to ensure that accusations about police brutality are addressed. I urgently want to say to the public that while the police continue to approach public protests and public functions in a humane manner, we expect the same from the public.

[Applause.] We have a situation in Heidelberg in Gauteng, for instance, which police have been policing in a manner that we have said is correct. They are doing so with difficulty because some of the people in the community have been very violent. We want people to bear with the police, and when we say that they must approach people humanely, we are in fact speaking to everyone. Nobody has a licence to destroy another person’s property.

HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Another priority is strengthening the detective service, and crime intelligence in particular. These are the areas that by and large help in the prevention of crime because, while we have a duty to combat crime, we have an even bigger responsibility to prevent crime from happening. In that regard some work has been done, together with crime intelligence and the DPCI, the Hawks. As part of our concerted drive in specialised investigations, particularly in tackling commercial crime, the DPCI have arrested 8 309 individuals and secured 5 561 convictions.

Further, regarding organised crime, they have arrested 2 820 and secured 884 convictions. [Applause.]


The Anticorruption Task Team was established specifically to investigate public sector corruption in terms of Output 5 of the government delivery agreement. During the corresponding period the

ACTT had significant successes, arresting 38 suspects for fraud and corruption amounting to R212 million, and seizing assets totalling

R250 million.

Some of the disturbing criminal acts in the course of the past year have been rhino poaching. This year alone over 200 rhinos have been killed. This has been declared an operational priority by the

Department of Police. A national task team has been established at the DPCI to specifically address this matter. Again, government has been engaging at all levels, particularly with our counterparts in countries of East Asia, to enhance law enforcement agencies. We had a meeting with my counterpart in Vietnam in October last year, specifically regarding this matter, and were given assurances and commitments of co-operation and working together.

Regarding women, children and people with disabilities, we reestablished the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual

Offences Unit, and went around the country interacting with the men and women who are working in this area. We have also raised the matter of scarce skills because we believe that this area is a highly specialised one and the people who work in it need all the support they can get, from government and everybody else.


Crime against women and children is a priority for the SAPS.

Therefore the FCS units, which have been reintroduced in all 176

SAPS clusters in all nine provinces, are starting to work effectively. Currently 2 155 detectives have been placed at these units and they have been issued with 1 276 vehicles. Previously, the

FCS units consisted of only 1 864 detectives. An additional amount of R49,5 million was provided to all provinces to capacitate the FCS units with resources. From April 2011 to January 2012 the FCS units achieved over 363 life sentences, with a conviction rate of 73% for crimes against women above 18 years of age and 70% for crimes against children under the age of 18. [Applause.]

A total of 17 314 out of 21 000 detectives have been trained in detection-related courses. A further 2 161 detectives will be trained on the basic detective course during the 2012-13 financial year. A total of 493 detectives who were in the past transferred to other components and divisions in SAPS have been placed back in the detective services environment. Six courses for the training of detective commanders were presented during the 2011-12 financial year, in which 346 commanders were trained.

Next is skills-focused recruitment, as opposed to volume-based recruitment.

Over the past year we have made certain changes in our approach to recruitment. Our official standards have been benchmarked against other countries and have compared favourably.


However, we must now seriously look at how our recruitment is actually being carried out on the ground.

We have also prioritised the area of the Forensic Science

Laboratory. Following the 66% reduction in backlogs recorded in forensic services in the 2010-11 financial year, increased commitment and greater effort resulted in a further 30% reduction in

2011-12, despite a 67% escalation in the workload, which increased from 66 375 in 2011 to 111 068 in 2011-12. This further reduction is commendable, especially in view of the production time lost as a result of increased emphasis on the development of individual performance. The department will continue to grow forensic capacity in response to the expected escalation in exhibits received.

In addition to the awareness drives to enhance current services offered by the forensic services, more crime scene management service stations have been established to reach especially the rural communities where such services were difficult to reach previously.

The department is intensifying its efforts to reach even more communities in this new financial year.

The next area of focus is the review of the White Paper on Safety and Security. During the last financial year we made concerted efforts to strengthen civilian oversight over the police through the reform of the directorate formerly known as the Independent

Complaints Directorate, now known as the Independent Police


Investigative Directorate, and the Civilian Secretariat for Police.

Now that these reforms have been processed, the task will not only be to ensure delivery by these oversight bodies, but also the review of the White Paper on Safety and Security and subsequent overhaul of the SAPS Act. During the 2011-12 financial year the Civilian

Secretariat for Police Service Bill was passed and became an Act, and in December 2011 the Act was put into operation by the President of the Republic of South Africa.

Lastly, for this financial year the focus must be on strengthening oversight over the police. While we have committed ourselves to actively combating crime, including serious and violent crime, by being tougher on criminals and organised syndicates, we have always emphasised that this tough stance on crime must be balanced by our philosophy that community policing must be based on and entrench a human rights culture, as well as a community-orientated sensitivity.

That is why we are pleased with the Independent Police Investigative

Directorate Act, Act 1 of 2011, which takes the IPID out of the

SAPS. Thus, from 1 April 2012 their independence from the police has been entrenched. The IPID Act focuses the investigative mandate of that directorate on specified serious matters. These include deaths in police custody, deaths as a result of police action and any complaint related to the discharge of an official firearm by any police officer.


We will introduce the Private Security Industry Regulation Amendment

Bill, where we are looking at the regulation and strengthening of this area. What we are saying here is that while we have to forge links and work with private security, we must at the same time ensure that this area is not infiltrated by criminals.

Lastly, we want to announce that we are putting in place a commission that will deal with the whole area of firearms, particularly dealers in firearms. It will also strengthen cooperative governance in the handling of firearms within the police service itself.

I want to declare that this, the Year of the Detective, should be when everybody will roll up their sleeves and work to get the conviction rate raised. [Applause.]

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, op ’n punt van orde: Ek wou die agb

Minister nie onderbreek nie. Mag ek verneem waarom daar nie vertaaldienste in dié Huis beskikbaar is nie? Ek het dié saak gister al geopper en daar was ’n onderneming dat die tegniese span daarna sou kyk. Ek verneem graag waarom daar nie vertaaldienste is nie.

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, on a point of order: I did not want to interrupt the hon Minister. May I ask why the interpreting services are not available in this House? I already raised this

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 14 of 94 matter yesterday and an undertaking was given that the technical team would investigate the matter. I really wish to know why there are no interpreting services.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Agb lid, ons sal vasstel wat die probleem is en dan sal ek ’n aankondiging doen. [Hon member, we will establish what the problem is and then I will make an announcement.]

Mrs L S CHIKUNGA: Chairperson, members of Cabinet, Minister and

Deputy Minister of Police, Members of Parliament, Acting National

Commissioner and the South African Police Service management, invited guests and comrades, and ladies and gentlemen, section

205(3) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa states, and I quote:

The objects of the police service are to prevent, combat and investigate crime, to maintain public order, to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property, and to uphold and enforce the law.

The question is, then: Are police members able to fulfil this constitutional mandate? The factual answer is yes, they are, and I want to provide just a few clear examples of their achievements.


The steady decline in serious crime is clear and important proof.

Also, the number of SAPS members has increased tremendously, from just over 116 000 in the financial year 2001-02 to more than 193 000 as of 31 March 2011. Most police stations have community police forums and they are functioning well, despite some teething problems. This means we have managed to get the community to work with the police. In areas and police stations where sector policing has been implemented properly, sector managers work even more closely with the sector’s communities. We also have executive members who go to communities to listen to their joys, frustrations and suggestions. We have policing policies that are informed by what most South Africans think should be done. The portfolio committee visited provinces and we saw state-of-the-art police stations in townships and sometimes in rural areas. Esikhawini, Ezakheni and

KwaMashu police stations in KwaZulu-Natal are just a few examples of such state-of-the-art stations. Today we are debating a Budget of

R62,4 billion. May I remind all South Africans that in the financial year 2005-06, when we had 148 970 policemen, the budget was only

R28,4 million.

I have mentioned just a few achievements, but they are very important and we sometimes take them for granted. We have come a long way and over the years we have achieved a police service that people view as their own. Of course there are challenges - we expect that - but we have achieved so much.


Before I say more about our budget, let me also mention a matter that is in the public domain. We are told that Lt-Gen Mdluli is being considered for the position of national commissioner in the event that Gen Bheki Cele does not come back. Firstly, nobody knows what the outcome of the investigation of Gen Bheki Cele will be.

Secondly, South Africa has a national commissioner, namely Gen Bheki

Cele. Because of his suspension, South Africa has an acting national commissioner, namely Gen Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi. What this means is simply that there is no vacancy in the position of national commissioner. So, clearly, nobody is headhunting a national commissioner. Let me state clearly to all South Africans out there that under the circumstances there is no vacancy in the position of national commissioner and therefore Lt-Gen Mdluli is not being considered for the national commissioner position.

However, if in future a vacancy does exist, what would make anyone even speculate that the President would appoint Lt-Gen Mdluli? There is absolutely no basis for this speculation. If people want to raise concerns about allegations around Lt-Gen Mdluli, let them do so, but for them to say that he is being considered for the position of national commissioner is equal to deliberately misleading the nation.

Regarding other issues and allegations against Lt-Gen Mdluli, I want to put it on record that the Portfolio Committee on Police did receive a briefing on the matter by the Acting National Commissioner

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 17 of 94 on 17 April 2012. Members of the portfolio committee were given the opportunity to ask questions, which the Acting National Commissioner responded to clearly.

Following the briefing, members of the portfolio committee - except for the DA, to be precise - told the Acting National Commissioner that they would be supporting him all the way in the investigation of the Cato Manor unit, dubbed the Death Squad; the head of the

Hawks in KwaZulu-Natal; and Lt-Gen Mdluli. We meant it and still mean it.

Furthermore, we have taken serious note of the alleged tension among senior managers in the SAPS, including the apparently negative impact these matters might have on the service as a whole. In this regard, we want to reiterate our position, which I announced on

Monday, 7 May. It is that we do not believe that inviting Gen Mdluli to appear before the portfolio committee would serve any purpose, for reasons we have clearly outlined. Yet it is in the interest of the committee to be assured that no damage is caused by these matters. We appreciate the decision the Minister has just announced.

We will look into the matter and decide our way forward.

The ANC will support the Budget Votes for the Department of Police and the Independent Police Investigative Directorate. In support of these Budget Votes, let me take this opportunity once more to remind all of us of what the President said in Pretoria on 29 September


2009, when he met with station commanders from all the 1 117 police stations. He said: it is not business as usual for public servants who are at the coalface of service delivery. All police management must work harder and nonperformance should result in action being taken against management. Police stations must be the hope of communities.

Our support for these Budget Votes is informed by the fact that police stations need to continue to provide a service to communities and to be the hope of communities.

Minister Nathi Mthethwa has just announced that the 2012-13 financial year is the Year of the Detective. Let me remind all of us that Programme 3: Detective Services received a budget of

R13,1 billion. Under Programme 3, I just want to talk about issues regarding the SAPS Forensic Services programme, which has a budget of R1,8 billion. The department told us that they were 50% of the way towards meeting the requirements for the accreditation of the forensic laboratories. Even though we understand that accreditation is not a legal requirement according to the Act, and also that it is a costly exercise, we strongly feel that we must work harder in order to obtain it. It is in this spirit that the department thought it necessary to employ the last 850 analysts, as of yesterday.

Minister, the Marshal system was dismantled without following proper procedure. We have been raising this matter since January 2010.


Commissioner Du Toit has since resigned. We are told that

Commissioner Joubert has been dismissed. Minister, we think this is not enough. There is more serious corruption in this matter. In

South Africa, some people who commit serious corruption are allowed to get away with it. In future, we will call upon Gen Dramat to explain to us why corruption associated with the Marshal system is not being investigated and why criminal charges are not being instituted.

We received a validation report for the continuous integration lane, which is supposed to tell us whether the CI lane is efficient or not. This time around, it looks like the department is trying to make sure that we do not falter again.

There is progress in the Forensic Science Laboratory. Minister, I agree with you. We see it and would like to thank Lt-Gen Phahlane and his team. We also want to thank the analysts and scientists in our forensic laboratories who have put up with situations that are sometimes less than favourable in terms of accommodation and working conditions, but have continued to discharge their duties professionally.

The installation of closed circuit television cameras in the strategic areas of all our labs is a priority. We believe this should be done without fail in this financial year. We do not want to raise this matter again next year. This is vitally important if

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 20 of 94 we are to fight drug dealing. We must make sure that drugs do not leave our labs and go back onto the street.

We are satisfied with the targets set in the annual performance plan. The department aims to process 93% of case exhibits within 28 nonworking days. In 2010-11 it was 35 working days. We will definitely monitor the attainment of these targets.

We are also pleased to hear that the Department of Police has built a state-of-the-art forensic laboratory here in the Western Cape. We believe it will contribute to ensuring that case exhibits are processed timeously and within a short space of time. Well done, Gen

Mofomane and your team, for building this laboratory.

For this financial year the SAPS has a total budget of

R62,4 billion, up from R58,5 billion for the 2011-12 financial year.

This represents a nominal increase of 6,7% and an increase of 0,77% in real terms. Of the R62,4 billion, R45 billion is for compensation, which accounts for 72% of the total budget. That leaves R17 billion for other projects, such as goods and services and capital assets, which is 28%. We believe that this situation needs proper management and attention so that it does not escalate and get out of hand.

I want to talk about the programme Administration, which takes

R16,2 billion. A lot has happened in the SAPS. During 1995-96, there

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 21 of 94 were 140 955 SAPS members. Today we have 193 892 personnel members in the Department of Police. The Police and Prisons Civil Rights

Union, Popcru, and the South African Policing Union, Sapu, have been raising the issue of a top-heavy structure in the SAPS.

As of 31 March 2011, we have had five deputy national commissioners and now there are six. So, we have one national commissioner and six deputy national commissioners. However, five of the six deputy national commissioners report to one deputy commissioner and it seems that provincial commissioners have copied this as well. So, if you like, in terms of the organogramme today, you have one national commissioner, one deputy national commissioner, and then five deputies reporting that deputy national commissioner, then 15 divisional commissioners, nine provincial commissioners, 126 majorgenerals and 519 brigadiers. It is important for us to know what all these senior managers do every day and whether job evaluation is being conducted. In June we will meet the department, together with the unions, to explore human resource matters.

On 31 May 2011 there were vacancies in the ranks of major and lieutenant. We were told that these would be used to promote deserving people. Indeed, we have been told that there were promotions to these ranks but that the results have been disappointing. In June the department will be briefing the committee on this matter as well.


We acknowledge the fact that the building of police stations is not an easy task to manage, but it is worrying to learn from the

Auditor-General that no contracts were signed for the building of police stations during the 2011-12 financial year. In 2010 we asked the department to come up with an effective strategy that would ensure the building of devolved police stations. However, we noted that the department resolved to refer back to the Department of

Public Works the construction of all police stations, including devolved police stations. We will await the finalisation of the logistics and the processes. There is a budget. Police stations must be built and refurbished - nothing less.

Leased accommodation is presenting a challenge for the department.

We believe the department is trying its best. They have tried, on their own, to get copies of the contracts of almost all leased buildings. This is largely thanks to Gen Mofomane and, in particular, Maj-Gen Matsi, who seems to be prepared to do everything in her power to correct this situation. I hope Maj-Gen Matsi will continue to believe in this hands-on type of management, rather than

“office-bound” management. Well done. [Applause.] Their approach has assisted the department to get these contracts. So far they have managed to convince the Portfolio Committee on Police that they are trying to correct the situation, but there are limitations. We acknowledge this from our side, but we are indeed seeing improvement.


In this regard, I want to say something about the City Forum building, which is occupied by the Independent Police Investigative

Directorate. We woke up one Sunday to headlines that claimed that

Roux Shabangu owned the City Forum building and that inflated and exorbitant rent was being paid to Mr Shabangu for this building. I even received a letter from an MP, the hon Dianne Kohler-Barnard, suggesting that Mr Roux Shabangu, together with the Department of

Public Works, should be hauled before the portfolio committee to provide a long overdue explanation for what had become a deeply suspicious relationship between him and a government department.

Mr Roux Shabangu informed the portfolio committee that the City

Forum building had been bought by a Mr Van Niekerk in 2009 at

R59 million and therefore the inflated and exorbitant rent was in fact going to Mr Van Niekerk. Immediately, what was regarded as serious corruption and a sin if the building belonged to Mr Shabangu became “normal rates” and a blessing if it was Mr van Niekerk. I am still waiting for a letter suggesting that we also invite Mr Van

Niekerk to come and answer for his blessings. [Applause.]

As I have stated, in 2005-06 the department had a budget of

R28,4 billion. Today, R28,6 billion is for the Visible Policing

Division only. This is our tax. It is contributed by an old woman somewhere out there who has R10 for buying candles and has to pay

14% VAT. It is only fair of the portfolio committee to demand value for money on behalf of that woman.


I do not know what to say here. At station level the Visible

Policing programme is happening. I think it is important at this point to thank our police officers who bear the brunt of the battle against crime in difficult and often dangerous circumstances, yet are often not appreciated. We thank them very much. We also dip our banners in remembrance and honour all our police officers who have died in the line of duty. We once more extend our heartfelt and sincere condolences to their immediate families, colleagues and communities. Let us also appreciate the work of the community police forums, who volunteer their services only for the love of their communities and the country. We say, “Well done!” to the CPFs.

Hon members, in its 2010-11 annual report the department and the

Visible Policing Division in particular acknowledged that illegal liquor outlets and the sellers of illicit drugs and alcohol were the drivers of serious crimes. However, the Visible Policing Division’s management saw fit not to set targets for these drivers, because if they did and then did not meet those targets, they would get

“qualified”. Also, there were no targets for the rolling out of victim support centres, for reasons I don’t even want to remember.

Furthermore, I do not know what to say about the sector policing strategy, which the department started implementing in 2002. Ten years later it is still not fully implemented and has not been assessed for its impact. There is also no clear plan on what will be happening going forward. Minister, at the national level I don’t know what to say. In regards to performance there is simply a lack

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 25 of 94 of commitment and seriousness. It is just unacceptable and that is all I want to say, I think.

We want to congratulate the Acting National Commissioner for the decentralised National Police Day. We think it is reaching more people and is probably more cost-effective. Well done, Acting

National Commissioner. [Applause.]

As I conclude, and even if the hon Annelize van Wyk will be dealing with the Detective Services Programme, DSP, may I, on behalf of the

ANC, express our excitement about what was presented to Parliament regarding the Detective Services Programme. Minister, your department told us, the portfolio committee, that they were giving us what we have been recommending, but they wanted to prove to us, the portfolio committee, that they, the department, were the experts in this field and would surpass our expectations. Minister, the presentation was done by people who knew what they were talking about. They had clear targets. Every person who spoke on that exciting Thursday, 19 April 2012, displayed clarity, seriousness and commitment. It was as if they had gathered a team of experts who had been appointed for their qualifications, experience, skills and performance. Minister, we are excited and optimistic now. We want to congratulate the Minister and the Deputy Minister, the Acting

National Commissioner, and Deputy National Commissioner Lebeya and his team.


We remain unshaken in our commitment and call on all responsible citizens to become soldiers in the war against crime. Victory is certain! Amandla awethu! [Power to the people!] [Applause.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J D Thibedi): Thank you, hon member.

Before I proceed, I just want to indicate the following regarding the matter of interpretation. It is standard practice during the

Extended Public Committee process that interpretation is done from the floor language into English. In other words, English is not interpreted but any other language spoken on the floor at a particular point will be interpreted into English. If hon members are not satisfied, the matter can be taken up with the Chief Whips

Forum, I think, so that they can look into it. However, by and large, this situation is a matter of logistics.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, thanks for your honesty at least. I thought you were going to blame it on apartheid! However, it is not acceptable and I will take it up. Thank you. [Laughter.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J D Thibedi): As I’ve indicated, if you are not satisfied, you can take up the matter with the Chief

Whips’ Forum.

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Chairperson, the police are constitutionally mandated:

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 27 of 94 to prevent, combat and investigate crime, to maintain public order, to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property, and to uphold and enforce the law.

In our society, in which families and communities are being torn apart and ravaged by high levels of violent crime, the police are nothing short of an essential service. Yet our country has reached a defining political moment as we debate today the Budget Vote for this most crucial entity, the South African Police Service. The SAPS has asked this House to approve an appropriation of R62,45 billion.

Now, the question being asked by every reporter, political analyst and citizen - and which should be asked by every politician - in this country is: Is there political interference within the service?

After joining the dots, the conclusion is that President Zuma has quite possibly reached into the SAPS to protect a police officer accused of fraud, murder and corruption, one Richard Mdluli, the controversially reinstated head of Crime Intelligence.

One has to ask if the sudden shift of Richard Mdluli announced a few moments ago would ever have happened if it had not been for the pressure from the DA and a free media. [Interjections.] One has to ask why on earth the Minister did not suspend the man, because he is under investigation. That is what should have happened in this House today. [Interjections.]


This man, within a matter of months, had been pushed into one of the most powerful positions held by any individual in the country. He was the person who could approach a judge to request communication interceptions - the only person - and even the allegedly independent

Hawks had to go to him, cap in hand, asking if he would apply for communication interceptions for investigations on their behalf. He also swept the VIP Protection Unit under his control, so he had a heavily armed team reporting on the movement of politicians 24 hours a day. He had the ability to tap the phone calls of politicians as well as criminals, which is a tantalising fruit for someone who allegedly avoided prosecution as a result of secret recordings of telephone conversations.

This was and, frankly, to a large extent still is, the elephant in the living room. I refer to the situation as “the elephant in the living room” because while we discuss budgets; the 27 000 SAPS members who have firearms without licences; the 150 police stations that are without electricity, water, toilets or all three; the fact that the Department of Public Works regularly forgets to pay the rent on the dozens of SAPS buildings it oversees, which means SAPS members are locked out by angry landlords – while we discuss these matters - no one anywhere in government dared to confront the issue of Richard Mdluli until the official opposition and civil society put their foot down. Everyone knows he is there, but within government extreme care is taken to avoid discussing him. After all,

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 29 of 94 with him at the helm of the police, one faction could rely on investigations into the activities of his opponents.

During the budget briefings I did attempt to get Richard Mdluli to speak, but at that stage he had been shut down by the Acting

National Police Commissioner.

In the face of mass reportage by our free media, Richard Mdluli really is the quintessential Teflon man - he has shrugged off murder and fraud charges and, indeed, an entire shopping cart of charges within the service. [Interjections.] The report by Maj-Gen Mark

Hankel highlights in excruciating detail that “shopping cart” of alleged actions, any one of which would have had any other SAPS member suspended, pending the outcome of an investigation.

[Interjections.] Indeed, the SAPS has the highest total, per month - in terms of salary, that is - of suspended members of any Ministry because they are so serious about rooting out criminality within the service. Yet, somehow, this enthusiasm just does not apply to

Richard Mdluli.

Today we were told that he has been moved. We do not know where to - the Minister kept that to himself. We do not know what he is still in charge of, what he controls. Does he in fact have security clearance, I wonder? What with the ever-increasing density of the cloud hanging over his head, I somehow doubt it, yet surely he has been dealing on a daily basis with classified documents.


Now, I put through a parliamentary question to that effect, but perhaps the Minister would like to take this opportunity to give us that answer. Perhaps he could also answer how it was that Richard

Mdluli was not arrested for defeating the ends of justice when the

Hawks reportedly found seven missing police dockets locked in his safe over a year ago. [Interjections.] I would like to know whether the Minister was in any way involved in the decision to terminate the disciplinary proceedings against Richard Mdluli. I would like to know whether the Minister was in any way involved in the reinstatement of Richard Mdluli. I would like to know if he did indeed receive a copy of that letter in which Richard Mdluli made a pledge to the President to support him, as a senior member of a political party?

An HON MEMBER: Shocking!

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Meanwhile we have seen a senior public prosecutor have two attempts made on her life shortly after handing a 200-page report on the lifting of the murder charges against

Mdluli to the acting head of the National Prosecuting Authority, who now mysteriously says she never received it. [Interjections.]

We have the General Council of the Bar pointing to a spate of thefts from and harassment of advocates. There have been thefts of laptops and documents from advocates involved in high-profile cases

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 31 of 94 involving the Minister of Police or police in his department. I do not believe in coincidences.

Equally, in the case of a member of the board of inquiry inquiring into the suspended National Police Commissioner, three men armed with R5 assault rifles robbed him of laptops and documents. The rifles were the same type as those recently reported stolen from a safe at the Waterkloof Air Force Base. The stolen rifles belonged to the VIP Protection Unit which, until moments ago, was under Richard

Mdluli. Let me repeat: I do not believe in coincidences.

Chairperson, today we read on the front page of the Cape Times that an affidavit requesting a probe into Richard Mdluli’s alleged abuse of state resources was one of the documents stolen from a lawyer’s

Johannesburg home. [Interjections.] The affidavit, written by the

Minister of Human Settlements, Tokyo Sexwale, was intended for the

Public Protector, Thuli Madonsela. [Interjections.]

Here is a senior member of Cabinet, unequivocally stating that:

There is a reasonable suspicion that Mdluli, in his capacity as head of crime intelligence, may continue to abuse his power since he has been reinstated back to his job after his suspension.

Now Mdluli has simply been placed elsewhere within the SAPS. While what we are seeing is a fundamental collapse of trust in our


Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster institutions, the

Cabinet has claimed simultaneously that it did not discuss the

Richard Mdluli saga, but had somehow - without discussion - come to the conclusion that what was going on in the SAPS was merely a series of “public spats”. A spat? That is what I would call the outcome of two women reaching for the same dress at a sale!

[Laughter.] This was a comment from the collection of what are supposed to be the best political brains in the country. Are they frightened of Richard Mdluli? Some are saying they are.

The South African public believes the situation is severe. The political infighting and factionalism are paralysing our law enforcement agencies. It is severe in that many believe that we are teetering on the brink of becoming a police state. [Interjections.]

This situation is being described as the greatest threat to the criminal justice system South Africa has faced in years. This has been cadre deployment at its very worst, as a deeply, deeply compromised person was allowed to resume his position despite a national outcry.

Link all of this with the ongoing leadership battle within the ANC ahead of its elective congress. The outcry about the mismanagement of the SAPS by the suspended National Police Commissioner pales into insignificance in the face of this debacle. [Interjections.]

Meanwhile every South African newspaper, and radio and television station has been highlighting the war between the various factions

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 33 of 94 within the SAPS. This is the same Cabinet of the current government under which the Ministry of Police has become something of a hot potato, with one National Police Commissioner behind bars, the next suspended for conduct that was improper, unlawful and amounted to maladministration, and the latest under investigation by the Public

Protector, who says there is a prima facie case of improper conduct and abuse of power which warrants investigation.

Now, what we have seen is what happens when the wrong person is on top. With just 5% of the SAPS budget audited, the Auditor-General found R76 millions worth of irregular expenditure. [Interjections.]

Presumably you find that acceptable, hon member. [Interjections.]

Of equal importance to the Mdluli saga has been the response by the

SAPS and the Ministry to the Glenister judgment by the

Constitutional Court, when it ruled on the unconstitutionality of the Hawks. It was left to Parliament to ensure that a sufficiently independent unit was created and it did not determine that it should be within the SAPS.

We had such a unit, of course, but the Scorpions were shut down because they investigated corruption without fear or favour and one

ANC politician too many ended up feeling their sting. At the time, virtually every legal firm, NGO, individual citizen and Member of

Parliament who spoke against the closure of the Scorpions said they believed Bob Glenister would win his case. Yet hon members Maggie


Sotyu and Yunis Carrim said the decision had already been taken at

Polokwane and would therefore be implemented no matter what. The tens of thousands of petitions, the marches and the editorials were ignored, and Parliament and the Portfolio Committee on Police have ended up with egg all over their faces. The two who drove the closure of the unit were, of course, given deputy ministerial positions – one, ironically, of Police.

We all know that full independence means exactly that - a unit that will serve this country without fear or favour, and not primarily members of the SAPS who have simply been gathered together and named the Hawks. The “Blue Code of Silence” always has and always will mean that police close rank to protect their own from investigation

– there can be no independence in a ranked structure.

While we have taken this brief break for the debate today, the

Portfolio Committee on Police, known as the toughest portfolio committee in Parliament, with the strongest chairperson in

Parliament, is presiding over this bizarre process of virtually rubber-stamping what the Secretary of Police finally presented a few weeks ago – more than a year after the judgment. No attempt seems to have been made at all to include anything but a single correction thus far of 12 substantive inputs from top law professors and advocates from around the country. Indeed, it seems the committee is simply being herded down a predetermined path of going through the motions, pretending this is all a democratic process.


[Interjections.] Not a single deviation from this path is even being considered. This is exactly what happened the last time. This is exactly the same process that ensured this whole sorry mess has been dumped back in the lap of the Portfolio Committee on Police.

Mr Glenister has already stated that he will take this proposed Bill straight back to the Constitutional Court should he not believe the unit to be sufficiently independent. This is hardly comforting for

South African citizens, who once again become equally scornful and terrified of SAPS members because, according to IPID, they shoot to kill – and miss – on a regular basis, killing civilians and protesters, while, on the other hand, they demand bribes, rape, rob, torture and plunder. Civilians are terrified because the difference between “armed pursuit” and “extrajudicial assassination” has become increasingly blurred.

At least we now know why there are so many of them that miss what they aim at. It’s because 27 000 of them are carrying firearms without having passed the test for their licences. In fact, many of them have actually tried and then failed to get their licences but, of course, the move by the acting National Police Commissioner to do the right thing and disarm them was stopped in its tracks. He then told us not to panic and that this was all a misunderstanding – as if proper training in the use of firearms was negotiable for SAPS members. Perhaps it was all a misunderstanding that the Westville

Hospital gunman who held staff hostage was able to renew his firearm

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 36 of 94 licence despite having bipolar disorder, while SAPS members can’t even get theirs renewed at all.

We have hundreds of deaths in custody and at the hands of SAPS members, as well as allegations of hit squads operating in several provinces. Indeed, in between the stories littering the pages of the media, all focusing on the issue of the looting of the crime intelligence slush fund, or funds, by SAPS members and top politicians - and, this past weekend, the revelations of a second slush fund - are reports relating to an unprecedented assault, for the first time in our democratic era, by police using unrestrained violence in hunting down both criminals and noncriminals alike. This is literally exploding across South Africa.

To turn the dire situation in the SAPS around, what we need here today, in Parliament, is an assurance from the Minister that Richard

Mdluli, this deeply compromised man, is not even being considered as our next National Police Commissioner. Just say it! [Applause.]

An HON MEMBER: He should not even be a car guard!

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: Another area where we are seeing inexplicable deals being done is in the area of personnel. On one oversight visit by the Portfolio Committee on Police, I discovered a woman with a

Masters degree who had a man with just a Std 8 qualification promoted above her. Firstly, how did someone with only Std 8 get

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 37 of 94 into the SAPS? Secondly, why aren’t they promoting highly qualified women? Before those currently in government benches start hurling racist invective at me, let me say they were both black.

The Public Protector is investigating the claims of bizarre promotions within the SAPS at my behest and I assure you we will hear how it is that drivers and secretaries and relatives are bounced up the ranks when they have zero experience or qualifications. [Interjections.]

Others may have forgotten, but I certainly remember that the Public

Protector had to pressure the now suspended National Police

Commissioner to look into allegations that Richard Mdluli chose not to investigate certain matters in Gauteng. Yet Richard Mdluli was hired anyway, spent a few days in his cell and came back as the head of Crime Intelligence, now shuffled off to who knows where. Nor will we forget that the Acting National Director of Public Prosecutions,

Nomgcobo Jiba, who suspended Glynnis Breytenbach, was one of those who owe a huge debt to Richard Mdluli because he came to her rescue when she was suspended over her alleged involvement in a plot to have Scorpions Gauteng boss Gerrie Nel arrested. Nel had prosecuted her husband for stealing a client’s money out of his firm’s trust account but, of course, the President expunged his criminal record in September 2010. The National Prosecuting Authority, in turn, dropped the charges against Richard Mdluli. [Interjections.]


Minister Nathi Mthethwa has for a very long time been ominously silent on recent disturbing developments within the SAPS, despite his responsibilities in terms of overall control and management of the police.

The lifting of Crime Intelligence boss Richard Mdluli’s suspension is but one incident in a growing list of revelations about the SAPS

... [Interjections.] It was listed! [Interjections.] If you presume it wasn’t listed, think again! [Interjections.]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr J D Thibedi): Order, hon members!

Order, please!

Ms D KOHLER-BARNARD: It is one incident in a growing list of revelations about the SAPS which is drawing the state of affairs within the police into question. For example, the continuing evictions and lockouts of police officers from their offices in at least four provinces are undermining police morale and service delivery, and pose a severe threat to the security of some of the most vulnerable communities in South Africa.

There are questionable promotions in the SAPS. Six of President

Jacob Zuma’s VIP bodyguards have been irregularly promoted to the top ranks of the police - with two of them jumping six ranks overnight. It is the norm in the SAPS that friends and relatives are

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 39 of 94 promoted through the ranks – they are bounced through - with zero qualifications into positions of leadership.

There are reports that suspended National Police Commissioner Bheki

Cele signed off on a R26 million tender awarded to a businessman who allegedly showered top police officials with expensive gifts to approve the deal.

Now, all of the things I have touched on today go some way towards explaining why it was that someone like Vusumuzi Silwana found himself so disgusted at the SAPS indifference to his 14-year-old daughter’s murder that he went out and hunted down the killers himself. He did in five days what the SAPS couldn’t or wouldn’t or couldn’t be bothered to do.

In conclusion, I especially want to thank Sindi Chikunga for her leadership. I know she was loud today, but she is an extraordinary committee chairperson. [Applause.]

Thanks must also go to the vast majority – the vast majority - of

SAPS members who continue to perform their duties, even in this dark time in the history of the service. [Applause.]

The SAPS is in a worrying state - and that is putting it mildly - yet this House is expected to approve R62,45 billion. In any other democratic society in which the police, its senior management and

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 40 of 94 its political heads were so deeply embroiled in allegations and counterallegations, a Minister who had been this ominously silent and this lax in effectively dealing with the situation would have done the honourable thing and resigned. [Applause.]

Mr L RAMATLAKANE: Chairperson, Minister, Deputy Minister and hon members, I gladly follow my colleagues w h o have spoken before me on Budget Votes 23 and 25 respectively.

The Police B udget is one of the most important b u d g e t s in our democratic dispensation. It is important because policing and p r o t e c t i ng derive from our supreme law, our Constitution, and are a centrepiece for the nation’s development. The protection of the democratic order is entirely a mandate of our police.

Without the po lice, we will tail off. We expect that the police will at all times be guided by our Constitution and the Bill of

Rights and remain impartial in pursuance of the law and public order.

We value this budget, as per the constitutional requirement, in which the police have been voted R62,4 billion. The government’s allocation to this department of this kind of budget shows that investing in the enabling sector, such as the police and the Justic,

Crime Prevention Cluster, and Security contributes to a positive perception, thereby opening up opportunities for investment in the country.


I wish to take the opportunity of this Budget debate to thank and compliment SA policemen and women who have been working hard night and day, in the hot summer and in snowy and stormy weather, to protect our country. We in Cope say that they must continue to be visible. We are also aware that for those police officers sitting there, many of their colleagues have paid the ultimate price for the safety of South Africans.

For the record, we particularly want to state that thousands and thousands of policemen and women are hardworking, honest and beyond reproach. We must emphasise that in doing their work, they should not violate or offend against our Constitution, irrespective of the situation they may find themselves in. Doing so is, in fact, a punishable offence. Equally, the manipulation of statistics in

Limpopo is a serious crime, Minister, and punitive measures must be taken.

We are disappointed in the conduct of many police officers, who do not deserve to be called by the name of the SAPS as articulated in our Constitution. There are those involved in criminal conduct, such as helping drug dealers to have clear passage; being involved in drugs and abalone poaching; killing rhinos and selling horns; and turning into hit squads, like the Cato Manor squad, who allegedly have 45 bodies under their belt. They are worse than criminals and must not be tolerated by the state and the South African citizenry as a whole. The action taken against them, Minister and National


Commissioner, must send a merciless message that this will not be tolerated in our country at this stage. [Applause.]

When the former National Commissioner, who is still under suspension, used the slogan, “Shoot to kill!”, we warned that the introduction of such a concept was dangerous in our democracy. At the time we warned that those who handled fire power would use that power, then cover it up by giving reasons for doing so. We were emphatic that such a slogan was in fact a slow walk to Vlakplaas, where our people were eliminated by Eugene De Kock, the leader of that squad. Now, this squad, led by Johan Booysen, has done a similar thing.

Coming to other serious matters, Minister, the shenanigans in the police need to stop. The issues of the nonpayment of rent and the dubious leases have projected a negative image of the police and these need to stop.

We heard recently that instead of dealing with the problem of 27 000 police who lack the skill to handle a firearm, the Acting National

Commissioner has talked about instituting an investigation into how the information was leaked. The information about guns and police officers who are unable to handle firearms was available during the oversight visit to all the provinces! We are worried that this has gone even further and that there is talk of some senior officials having been suspended as a result of this particular leak.


When you read about Richard Mdluli in the newspapers, you see an abuse of resources. [Interjections.] This abuse has allegedly been used by him as a means to gain a position of power and influence politically, including becoming the National Commissioner. But

Ministers are running away instead of acting firmly!

[Interjections.] Must we conclude that the involvement and allowing

Mdluli ... [Interjections.] ... to run away are in fact, to allow a political contest?

This same Richard Mdluli is the one who penned a report and then went on to use it in South Gauteng against his own suspension as an issue of conspiracy against him. Now, when you read about Mdluli versus the Hawks, ... [Interjections.] ... you see and observe a terrible and horrifying scene which is being allowed to worsen. Who is spying for whom to settle a party leadership contest? A report of this kind is unwarranted and, in fact, breathtaking.

We must conclude that staying silent on these issues and the lack of action can only signal support for this saga. When you hear about deployment, redeployment and suspension, you see a problem emerging and resulting in the top-heavy structure of the SAPS. Suspension is used by others to take over the position. It leaves us speechless and not able to say what we want to say. What we are seeing in the police is a power play on a scale never seen before.


The newspapers inform us that the Minister is worried about the bugging of cellphones. This is a serious matter ... [Time expired.]

[Applause.]

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo neNdlu ehloniphekile, ngifuna ukuqala lapha kukubi khona kakhulu; udaba lokuthi uMnyango wezemiSebenzi yoMphakathi kanye noMnyango wamaPhoyisa kayisebenzisani kahle neze.

Ukuthi kuvalwe amahhovisi bese amaphoyisa esebenzela ngaphandle sengathi awanayo imali into ehluphayo futhi okufanele ilungiswe masinyane ngoba uma kungenjalo, kusho ukuthi uMnyango wezemiSebenzi yomPhakathi awukho, asitshelwe-ke ukuthi sisebenza nobani.

Okwesibili, yileli komidi okuthiwa yi-Bid Adjudication Committee.

Leli komidi lakho lenza umsebenzi omuhle kabi, kodwa indaba embi elayenza wukuthi lathenga izinto eziningi ezinye zazo ezingena msebenzi. Lasebenzisa izimali ezinkulu, ekugcineni kwatholakala ukuthi ezinye zazo ngeke zisebenze. Lokho akuvunyelwe-ke, yinkohlakalo phela leyo, ngeke sikwazi ukuyimela leyo. Kuyinto engavunyelwe nanoma nini ukuthi umuntu athathe imali yomuntu ohluphekayo ayisebenzise ngendlela engafanele.

Ngakho-ke siyanxusa ukuthi labo bantu abasebenzisa abangane ukuthola izindawo, amahhovisi, ukungena ezikhundleni, ukwenza yonke into – cishe ngathi nokuthola izintombi ... [Uhleko.] ... - akuvumelekile lokho. Akuvumelekile lokho mhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe . (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)


[Mr V B NDLOVU: Chairperson and this august House, I would like to begin with the worst issue, that the Department of Public Works and the Department of Police are not working well together. Take for instance the issue of the closing of offices, where you find that the police are working outside as if they do not have money, which is really a matter of concern. It must be corrected very soon or else this will mean that we do not have the Department of Public

Works. Tell us then who are we supposed to work with.

Secondly, the Bid Adjudication Committee is doing a great job, but the one bad thing that this committee did was to buy many things, only to find out that some of them were useless. It spent a lot of money and in the end it was discovered that some of those things were of no use. That is unacceptable, it is corruption, and we cannot stand that. It will always be unacceptable for a person to take money and misuse it.

Therefore, we are pleading with those who use their connections to get offices, positions and everything else – I almost said, even getting girlfriends ... [Laughter.] ... - that that is not acceptable. It is not acceptable, hon Minister.]

Therefore, corrupt officials need to be investigated, Minister, no matter what position they hold. That includes the supply chain management. I am not talking about people who are in supply chain management now. I am talking about those who were in supply chain

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 46 of 94 management. They need to be investigated, together with those who have resigned, because ...

... ayikho into ebuhlungu njengokuthi uma umuntu esezobekwa icala lokweba kuthiwe usule izolo emsebenzini – usule ngoba esebile. Lokho kukodwa kusiphatha kabi thina ngoba kukhona abantu ababaleka nezimali zethu ngokungafanele.

Uma sibheka ukusebenza kwamaphoyisa, kukhona amaphoyisa asebenzisa isicabha esivuleka ngomshwibo - ngamanye amazwi, anebhizinisi khona la emnyangweni. Ugcine ungasazi ukuthi kwenzekani, ingabe lo muntu uyiphoyisa noma ungusomabhizinisi? Awusazi manje noma usomabhizinisi omncane ozidayisela iklabishi notamatisi laphaya esekhahlelwa enziwe yonke into kusuke kungoba lo muntu efuna ukuthi kudle yena yedwa - ngenxa yokuthi usebenzisa isicabha esivuleka ngomshwibo. Uma kungenjalo ngenkathi, uma eseboshwa yilaba ababophayo, asule emsebenzini mahlayeni mahlayeni usengumeluleki wawo futhi lo

Mnyango. Ngeke sikumele lokho ngoba ...

(Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[... there is nothing as sad as when a person is supposed to be charged with theft and you are told that that person resigned the previous day – she or he resigned after thievery. This is a huge concern because there are people who run away with our money.


Looking at police operations, there are those who use the sliding door – meaning they have businesses operating within the department.

You end up not knowing what is really happening - is that person a police officer or a businessman? You end up being confused when you find a young entrepreneur who is selling cabbages and tomatoes on the street being ill-treated. Is it because that person wants to be the only one who benefits, because he is using the sliding door? If it is not that, you find that if he happens to be arrested by those who are qualified to do that, he resigns and the next thing you know he is the advisor of that department! We cannot allow that. We cannot allow that because ...]

... that is corruption on top of corruption plus corruption.

[Laughter.] [Applause.]

Lokho kuhambenala nokungasebenzisi kahle izinsuku zasemsebenzini zokugula. Amaphoyisa awasebenzisi ngendlela efanele izinsuku zokugula. Lokho bakwenza ngabomu, angazi noma mhlawumbe lokhu bakwenza ngoba basuke bephethwe ngobhululu babo noma mhlawumbe odadewabo noma yingoba kunjani. Kukhona oke wakhuluma ngokuthi kukhona oke anyuswe esikhundleni enebanga lesishiyagalombili phezu koneziqu zemfundo ephakeme. Konke lokho kuyinkohlakalo.

Uyabona-ke Mhlonishwa ngakhulela emakhaya mina. Umuntu ogangile ubekwa icala, uma etholakale enecala axoshwe emsebenzini. Akulokhu

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 48 of 94 kushoniswa ilanga, kubanjwa kuyekwa kungaziwa ukuthi kwenziwani.


[That goes with the misuse of sick leave days. Police do not use their sick leave days correctly. They do that on purpose. I don’t know whether they do that because they are managed by their friends or maybe their sisters or whoever! Somebody said something to the effect that sometimes you find that a person who possesses only a std 8 certificate is given a higher position than a person who has tertiary qualifications. That is pure corruption.

Hon Chairperson, I grew up in the rural areas. If you do something wrong, you are charged, and if you are found guilty, you are dismissed from work. No time is wasted.]

We must be frank with each other, especially when we are dealing with the police. We cannot afford to have a corrupt person in the

SAPS, no matter what and no matter who is dealing with what.

Uyabona-ke Mhlonishwa uma kukhulunywa ngabantu okuthiwa bayaqeqeshwa kodwa abakwazi ukuphatha izibhamu. Nhloboni yomuntu leyo? [Uhleko.]

Bese kuthiwa bayageja abakwazi ukunemba. Umuntu adubule ayise eceleni - nhloboni yomuntu leyo? Wayekade engene kanjani lowo muntu ngoba kunezitebhisi okuhanjwa ngazo ngempela? Sikwenza kanjani lokho? Lokhu ukwehlisa isithunzi sobuphoyisa Mhlonishwa. Ngibuthanda kabi ubuphoyisa mina kodwa uma ngabe benza lento, hhayi impela

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 49 of 94 sengizogcina ngingasabuthandi. [Uhleko.] Phela kwehlisa isithunzi sabo lokhu ngoba akufanele kwenzeke. Ngakho-ke laba bantu abenza lokhu abafanele bakwenze lokhu. [Kuphele isikhathi] [Ihlombe.]


[There are people who were trained but they cannot even hold their guns properly. What kind of a person is that? [Laughter.] And it is said, if they miss the target, that they cannot aim for the target.

What kind of a person shoots away from the target? How did that person get there, because there are procedures that have to be followed? How do we allow that? This tarnishes the image of the police, hon Minister. I love policing, but if they go on like this,

I will end up hating it. [Laughter.] This tarnishes their image; it is not supposed to happen. So, people who do this must stop. [Time expired.] [Applause.]]

Mr S Z NTAPANE: Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Minister and hon members, let me state at the outset that the UDM supports Votes 23 and 25. [Applause.] Since 2009-10 there have been many advances and successes in the fight against crime in South Africa. With the exception of a few categories, violent and serious crimes have come down significantly. Improved police visibility and other crime strategies seem to have paid dividends, as alluded to by the hon chairperson of the portfolio committee. Though a lot of work still needs to be done to reduce the unacceptably high levels of crime in

South Africa, we would like to commend the Department of Police for

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 50 of 94 working hard to ensure that the South African people are and feel safe.

However, we are concerned about the fact that the few successes in the fight against crime are flanked by high levels of police brutality. Over the past few years we have seen an increase in the number of cases of people who die in police custody, people who die as a result of police action, and people who are tortured or assaulted by police officers in the execution of their duties, to mention but a few. We have also seen an increased number of cases where members of the SAPS have used brute force to disperse peaceful service delivery protests. However, we welcome the means made available to address this particular issue, as announced in this

House by the hon Minister.

In this regard, the UDM welcomes the focus in Budget Vote No 23 on enhancing the capacity of the Independent Police Investigative

Directorate. We also welcome the directorate’s medium-term priorities regarding the raising of public awareness of its mandate and functions. These actions will help stem the tide of police brutality in South Africa.

The UDM is also particularly concerned about the reports regarding the shocking levels of corruption in the Department of Police.

Recent reports indicate that the Hawks have uncovered a concealed police bank account, which is being used to deposit commissions for

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 51 of 94 the purchase of police vehicles. The police headquarters lease saga is another example of how people use the public purse to extract private wealth. It is sad to see a department that started so well become engulfed in such controversies and scandals. Government needs to rid the entire Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster of its mafia-like image. The South African people deserve a better functioning cluster. As I said at the start, the UDM supports both these budgets. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, my Minister, the

Minister of Police ... [Interjections.] I’m no longer a chairperson.

I want to behave. Please leave me alone. [Laughter.] Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Police, Mme Sindi Chikunga, hon Members of Parliament, Acting National Commissioner of Police and your team,

Executive Director of the newly established Independent Police

Investigative Directorate, IPID, Mr Beukman, and your team,

Chairperson of the Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority,

Mr Bopela, our distinguished guests, and all safety and security

MECs from the provinces, I greet you, my colleagues. Ntate Komphela, from my own province, halala!

I rise first to pay tribute and respect to our comrades and colleagues in government who have passed on during these past two weeks. We say, “rest in peace” to Comrade Shiceka, Comrade

Padayachie and Comrade Mama Flo Nyanda.


The core work of the Department of Police is aligned to the National

Priority Outcome 3: “All people in South Africa are and feel safe.”

Having said that, we strongly believe that for the SAPS management to create a reduced crime environment in our society, our common goal - Outcome 3 - must be oriented to interdepartmental and intergovernmental integrated action.

I’m saying this because only yesterday I had a major meeting with the Acting National Commissioner of Police and a working group for former Nonstatutory Force members who had been integrated into the

SAPS to address long outstanding issues regarding the former NSF members’ integration, reranking, pension and more. This meeting was informed by the directive of our President, His Excellency Jacob

Zuma, who is expecting us, as police leadership, to implement the national directives of the Military Veterans Act, Act 18 of 2011, the Government Employees Pension Law Amendment Act, and other formal agreements to remedy the disparities with regard to these members’ benefits and privileges.

The Ministry of Police is cognisant of the fact that the successful realisation of these directives can only be achieved with the support of National Treasury. We will also be requesting the

Ministry responsible for the South African National Defence Force for support by their sharing best practices with us, since the SANDF is already rolling out the same directive.


That is why, as the Ministry of Police, we believe that crime prevention and crime reduction work must also resonate especially with National Outcomes 2, 4, 9 and 12, which envision a long and healthy life for all South Africans; decent employment through inclusive economic growth; a responsive, accountable, effective and efficient local government system; an efficient, effective and development-oriented public service; and an empowered, fair and inclusive citizenship respectively.

Undoubtedly, the success or failure of the Department of Police’s mandate lies solely in the efficiency and effectiveness - or lack thereof - of the local police stations in our communities. The strengthening of the Cluster and Station Management Framework, which we are now embarking on in the department, is surely imperative to bolster the effective management and efficient functions of our police officers at the local police station level.

Admittedly, over the past few months the reputation and image of our

Police Service have been that it is jittery and nervy. This image has been self-inflicted at times, but mostly it is based on allegations and an unfounded picture painted by sceptics. Thank you, chairperson, for highlighting it. Indeed, these “self-made” problems include those highlighted in the recent headlines in regard to 600 police officers, being arrested and 272 fired in Gauteng alone; the brutality or excessive use of force by our police officers; and the killing of loved ones by police officers. It’s amazing that none of

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 54 of 94 the opposition members who spoke here said anything about the killing of police and their own families. [Interjections.]

We can say without any doubt that the Ministry of Police will neither shudder nor shiver in acting decisively against any police officer or personnel member in the Department of Police found guilty of committing serious crimes, including corruption. In this regard, the Ministry of Police has put in place a comprehensive

Anticorruption Implementation Plan.

In the same vein, the Ministry of Police acknowledges that maladministration and service failure at station level, and specifically at the national office level, do lead to a dysfunctional and disoriented workforce in general. Yes, we, the leadership, are not shy to say that the oversight reports by both the Secretariat of Police and the parliamentary Portfolio Committee on Police clearly and factually show that all is not well at some police stations across the country. Suffice it to say that, as the

Ministry of Police, we are now showing and leading the way for the

SAPS top management to be responsive to these glaring problems.

In support of the Minister of Police’s constant visits to police stations across the country, I am also rolling out across all nine provinces what we call the Provincial Intervention Programme. The main goal of this programme is to hold in-depth engagements with our police officers, especially low-ranked personnel, on issues such as

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 55 of 94 their health and wellness, at their places of work and at their residences. The engine of any organisation is its workforce, and the functioning of that engine is solely dependent on how well it is looked after. We are the first to complain about things like police brutality, sick leave and so on, but we don’t go deeper and interview the police to find out what the problems are. That is what the Deputy Minister did after getting the report from you, chairperson. The report of those engagements will be given to you as the chairperson of the committee, and not to any other member.

So far, the problems we have identified through this engagement with police officers mostly have to do with commanders or managers upholding or not upholding the basic principles and values of good administration. Also, for example, we have discovered that most police officers who are vulnerable to being killed using public transport to report for duty, or who commit suicide or kill their loved ones, tend to be individuals of lower rank and salary, who cohabit because they do not have houses of their own.

It is precisely during these volatile times that we need strong leadership from provincial commissioners to address these problems.

We need all nine provincial commissioners to actively encourage and support station commanders in managing their police stations fearlessly, fairly and with focus, by treating their troopers impartially, with respect and courtesy, and without bias, discrimination or prejudice. For that we need proactive station

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 56 of 94 commanders who will detect what works and what does not work any longer for the proper running of their police stations.

That is why the Station Management Learning Programme is now being introduced, to provide the basic knowledge and skills required by a station commander across the priority fields of police station management, such as personnel management and human resource management and utilisation. Such trained station commanders will, in turn, make sure that their troopers also benefit from refresher courses, or refresher training and reskilling courses, in order to reinforce command and control, discipline, tactical skills and operational knowledge, as well as basic management principles.

Yes, chairperson Chikunga, we agree with you. The national office divisional commissioners must support the station commanders in these endeavours. Divisional commissioners must minimise bureaucracy and must begin to be visible at police stations. They must stop being office-bound and being submission signers; they must go down to the provinces. This is what the Ministry of Police believes.

[Applause.]

Divisional commissioners are encouraged not to be hindered by reporting burdens and by being target-oriented, but must be more visible and available at cluster and station level to intervene in issues of station management and operation, as you highlighted in your report after your provincial visits.


Tackling problems of management, service delivery and accountability will not be solely dictated by the size of the budget provided to the SAPS. Yes, R62,4 billion is the total budget for the financial year 2012-13 for the Department of Police and one of the biggest among the national departments. But this big budget becomes futile if the SAPS top management is not able to honour the implementation plan to spend this allocated money appropriately.

It must be about a strong belief in the vision and principle of this government to better the livelihoods of our people. It must be about a decisive focus on the working organisational culture of the

Department of Police and its top management, and about the precise approach to fighting and preventing crime as set out by the authority of the department.

The national call by His Excellency, Jacob Zuma, in the state of the nation address in 2012, in which the President invited the nation to join government in massive infrastructure development for job creation and poverty alleviation, must surely resonate with our Goal

3 as well, albeit indirectly. Through the capital infrastructure and capital management programme, SAPS will be improving its working relationship with the Department of Public Works during the building and revamping of police stations across the country, as alluded to by the Minister.


Indeed, we believe that if departments and communities are not working hand in hand with the police, the police won’t be able to fight crime effectively. In order for us to fight crime effectively, we need that partnership between communities and the department at large to assist the police so that we can have safer communities.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, ek aanvaar dat u sê ek kan voortgaan. [Hon Chairperson, I accept that you have said I may continue.]

I want to start by saying to the hon Minister that, besides the

Jackie Selebi case, the Mdluli case has done the most damage to the image of the SAPS. The Minister’s actions are a matter of “too little, too late”. Unfortunately I must tell you, hon Minister, that you have egg on your face. You were the person who instructed that the member be reinstated after his suspension. Now, how is it possible that a member of the police, who has a murder inquest pending against him, can still be in a position to serve?

An HON MEMBER: Disgraceful!

Mr P J GROENEWALD: When allegations are made against the normal members of the Police Service, they are suspended and there is no comeback before the matter is finalised. [Interjections.]


Agb Minister, u is ongelukkig skuldig daaraan, en ek sê weer dat wat u gedoen het, te min en te laat is. Die publiek van Suid-Afrika moet vertroue in die polisie hê. Daardie vertroue lê aan skerwe as gevolg van die Mdlulisaak. [Tussenwerpsels.]

’n AGB LID: Hoor, hoor!

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Dié wantroue word weerspieël in wat ons in Suid-

Afrikaanse gemeenskappe sien gebeur. Dit is onstellend as ’n mens lees dat, in plekke soos Khayelitsha en Mpumalanga, mense die reg in eie hande neem en halsnoermoorde pleeg, omdat hulle sê hulle nie meer vertroue in die polisie het nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Hon Minister, unfortunately you are guilty of that, and I am saying again that what you have done is too little, too late. The public of

South Africa should have confidence in the police. That confidence now lies shattered to pieces as a result of the Mdluli matter.

[Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Hear, hear!

Mr P J GROENEWALD: This distrust is reflected in what we see happening in South African communities. It is distressing when one learns that in places such as Khayelitsha and Mpumalanga people are

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 60 of 94 taking the law into their own hands and committing necklace murders because they say they no longer trust the police. [Interjections.]]

So, the community is taking its own decisions, using necklaces to murder alleged criminals. That, hon Minister, can be laid at your door. I've posed a question to you on this matter, but haven’t received the answer yet.

Dit gaan hand-uit ruk en ons gaan anargie in Suid-Afrika hê.

[Tussenwerpsels.]

Ek wil oor plaasmoorde praat. Die regering sê altyd hy wil voedselsekerheid hê. As Minister van Polisie, watter sekerheid gee u aan die boere oor hul veiligheid op hul plase? [Tussenwerpsels.]

Vanaf 2007 wil u nie plaasmoord-statistieke beskikbaar stel nie, hoewel u dit altyd voorheen gedoen het. [Tussenwerpsels.] Hoekom word die statistieke nou skielik teruggehou?

Agb Minister, ek wil vir u vra: Is u bereid om met die VF Plus in gesprek te tree oor plaasveiligheid en plaasmoorde, sodat ons kan gaan kyk daarna en ’n oplossing kry? U gaan nie voedselsekerheid hê as u nie sekerheid aan die boere gee oor hul veiligheid nie.

[Tussenwerpsels.]

Ek wil ook oor die beheer van vuurwapens praat. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Dit is onstellend as die Provinsiale Kommissaris van Gauteng sê dat

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 61 of 94 ongeveer 200 000 patrone of rondtes van R5-aanvalsgewere by opleidingskolleges in Gauteng gesteel is. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is juis aanvalsgewere wat gebruik word in transito-rooftogte.

[Tussenwerpsels.] By winkelsentrums word hierdie tipe wapen deesdae dikwels tydens rooftogte aangewend. U moet nie die publiek daarvoor blameer nie, want die publiek besit nie R5-aanvalsgewere nie.

[Tussenwerpsels.] Dit is net die polisie en die SA Nasionale

Weermag. Die vingers wys almal na u toe.

Die vraag is: Hoe is dit moontlik dat daar nog steeds ongeveer 27

000 polisielede is wat nie ‘n bevoegdheidsertifikaat het om vuurwapens te hanteer nie? [Tussenwerpsels.] U laat mense met vuurwapens in die publiek rondbeweeg, maar u het nie bevoegdheidsertifikate vir hulle nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] As ek dit moet doen, sal ek onmiddellik vir die besit van onwettige vuurwapens gearresteer word. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[This is going to get out of hand and we will then have anarchy in

South Africa. [Interjections.]

I want to talk about farm murders. The government is always saying it wants to achieve food security. As the Minister of Police, what security do you give the farmers as regards their safety on their farms? [Interjections.] Since 2007 you have not wanted to release statistics on farm murders, though you have always done so in the

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 62 of 94 past. [Interjections.] Why are these statistics now suddenly being held back?

Hon Minister, I want to ask you: Are you prepared to enter into discussion with the FF Plus regarding safety on farms and farm murders, so that we are able to give it some consideration and find a solution? You will not achieve food security if you are unable to secure the safety of farmers. [Interjections.]

I also want to speak about the control of firearms. [Interjections.]

It is alarming when the Provincial Commissioner of Gauteng says that approximately 200 000 cartridges or rounds of ammunition for R5 attack rifles were stolen from training colleges in Gauteng.

[Interjections.] In fact, it is attack rifles that are used in cashin-transit heists. [Interjections.] Nowadays, it is this type of weapon that is often used during robberies at shopping malls. You should not blame the public for this, since the public does not own

R5 attack rifles. [Interjections.] Only the police and the SA

National Defence Force have them. All fingers point to you.

The question is also: How is it possible that there are still approximately 27 000 police members who do not have a competency certificate for handling a firearm? [Interjections.] You allow people with firearms to wander around among the public, but you do not have competency certificates for them. [Interjections.] If I

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 63 of 94 should do that, I would be arrested immediately for possession of illegal firearms. [Interjections.]]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): Order, please. Hon member, your time has expired.

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Ek verwag van die agb Minister ...

[Tussenwerpsels.] ... om op te tree en ... [Tussenwerpsels.]

Ek sal praat. Ek sal nie na jou luister nie! [Tussenwerpsels.] Net die voorsitter kan vir my sê ... [Onhoorbaar.] [Tussenwerpsels.]

(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: I expect the hon Minister ... [Interjections.]

... to act and ... [Interjections.]

I will speak. I am not going to listen to you! [Interjections.] Only the Chairperson can tell me ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]]

The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): Order please! Order! Your time has expired, hon Groenewald.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, if you order me to sit down, I will.

But I will not listen to the members from that side.


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): I require from both sides of this House absolute discipline and respect. Whether or not you agree with the person who is on the floor, give him or her the opportunity to express his or her views, please. I don’t want to repeat that. Thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the ACDP is deeply concerned about reports by the media regarding the SAPS generals attacking one another in public and its effect on the morale of the police. The confidence and trust of the public in their own security establishments wane as they read not only about these fights, but also about police officers who are involved in serious crimes such as murder, rape and armed robbery. I believe it is not enough for

Cabinet to condemn the ongoing public spat between senior police officers, including the head of crime intelligence. Cabinet must be seen to be united behind fighting all forms of corruption, particularly among the police, who have a constitutional mandate to prevent, combat and ... [Interjections.]

Mr L SUKA: Chairperson, on a point of order: I just want to say that it is not the convention that a member should walk between the Chair and the speaker. That hon member is out of order. He must take his seat.

Mr G B D MCINTOSH: Mr Chairman, I’m sorry, on a point of order ...

[Interjections.]


The TEMPORARY CHAIRPERSON (Mr A Mlangeni): Sir, I ruled that that was not a point of order. Please sit down. Continue, hon Meshoe.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, I hope you will give me the one minute that I have lost. Thank you.

It is not enough for Cabinet to condemn the ongoing public spat between senior police officers, including the head of crime intelligence. Cabinet must be seen to be united behind fighting all forms of corruption, particularly among the police, who have a constitutional mandate to prevent, combat and investigate crime.

They are obliged to uphold and enforce the rule of law at all times.

Johan Burger, senior researcher with the Institute for Security

Studies, is reported to have said that dozens of officers who speak to him daily are allegedly saying the following:

They are embarrassed to put on their uniforms and go out in public. They are ashamed to be associated with the police because of the criminal activity and corruptness of their bosses. The officers have absolutely no confidence in their top structures and this ultimately hampers their own willingness and ability to carry out their daily duties.


Chairman, I believe you will agree with me that this is shameful and totally unacceptable. It demotivates those good police officers who want to render effective service to the communities.

While the ACDP welcomes the Minister’s announcement this afternoon that Lt-Gen Richard Mdluli will be moved to another division to be determined by the Acting National Commissioner, Lt-Gen Mkhwanazi, we nevertheless believe the announcement has come a bit late, because much damage has already been done to the police morale. Also, the

Minister should have informed the House of what division Lt-Gen

Mdluli will be moved to, so that all those concerned about the prevailing atmosphere in the police will be put at ease.

The ACDP calls on the Minister of Police to help drastically improve the image of the police by publicly supporting Acting National

Commissioner, Lt-Gen Mkhwanazi, who was reported to have vowed to expose and deal with criminals within the police. The Acting

National Commissioner must also be supported by the President and his Cabinet in his reported resolve to “... prove that there are people strategically operating like a mafia and I will deal with these people. I will ensure that justice is delivered.”

I know the Minister has dismissed allegations of a cover-up in the probe into the head of crime intelligence. Sir, what should the public think when they hear about the intimidation of National

Prosecution Authority anticorruption prosecutor, Advocate Glynnis


Breytenbach, which includes being shot at, almost being driven off the road, being followed and also being suspended for what appear to be frivolous allegations? Why shouldn’t we believe that her suspension is connected with her resistance to the dropping of charges against the crime intelligence boss?

The ACDP believes that prosecutors and all police officers, particularly detectives, must be able to perform their tasks without fear, favour or prejudice. The ACDP further believes that the SAPS and all structures of government should be people who are committed to integrity, and upholding the rule of law and professional ethics.

In the light of the perceived increasing corruption in the police, the perceived protection of accused generals who should be fighting to clear their names in a court of law, and the alleged harassment of detectives and prosecutors who want to root out criminality from the top echelons of the SAPS and other security establishments, the

ACDP is not going to support this Budget Vote. Let the powers that be refrain from sweeping the rot under the carpet. Clean up the SAPS house and then the ACDP will support the next Police Budget Vote.

[Applause.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Chairperson and hon members, given the many challenges facing the department, a strategic, level-headed approach is certainly needed, especially from the executive head. The fight

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 68 of 94 against crime requires not only political commitment, but strategic approaches and the ability to identify strategic partners.

The goal of combating crime can never be achieved unless and until the police realise that their primary partners in this fight are society, the community and the ordinary citizens. They must know that we all want the same thing: to be safe on the streets and in our homes. Even those who act in a way that makes our streets unsafe for us want to be safe in their own.

One good element of our Constitution is that, in addition to the

Bill of Rights, it makes provision for checks and balances. The

Independent Complaints Directorate serves to keep the police in line, as does the Civilian Secretariat for Police.

Police brutality in handling citizens serves no good. In fact, it aggravates the situation and crime itself, because whenever police members use unwarranted force against civilians, they are committing crime, which they are mandated to combat.

It is an absolute shame that civil cases emanating from police brutality have pushed the contingent liability to R7,5 billion in the past financial year. The ICD’s 2011 annual report shows that our police are more violent than they have been in the past 10 years. Of course, this is a notable departure from the spirit of the


Constitution, which envisaged a police “service” - nowadays we have a police “force”.

It is high time that selection to join the police is done meticulously, ensuring that these men and women know that fighting crime does not require only brawn, but brains too. The taxpayer’s money goes down the drain when courts file cases against the

Minister for acts of brutality and foolishness by some police officers, such as incarcerating a bleeding, drunk suspect who subsequently dies in the holding cells.

We applaud the fact that current plans reflect a focus on building more police stations, improving detective services, strengthening forensic capacity and improving overall skills and working conditions. However, the challenge of strengthening police management capacity and internal accountability will always remain.

If this is achieved, South Africans can look forward to a better policing system in the future.

The wrangling among the heads of the police in recent weeks has been cause for great concern. We hope that they will heed the warning from Cabinet and desist from such counterproductive conduct. The

UCDP supports the Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Mr G LEKGETHO: Chair, hon Minister Mthethwa, hon Deputy Minister

Sotyu, chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Police, Mrs


Chikunga, Acting National Commissioner, Ntate Mkhwanazi, all the provincial commissioners here today, Director of the Independent

Police Investigative Directorate, Mr Beukman, and ladies and gentlemen, the financial year 2012-13 is a significant year for the

Independent Police Investigative Directorate. It was officially launched in April 2012 as the IPID, giving life to the IPID Act, Act

1 of 2011.

In short, the Act provides for the independent investigation of specified crimes committed by members of the SAPS and metro police.

In line with its changed mandate, the annual budget of IPID increased by 28,4%, or almost R40 million, in the 2012-13 financial year. This significant increase in the budget is to enable IPID to implement the new Act by boosting its personnel numbers. The budget increases from R153 million to R197,1 million. The budget is divided into three programmes: the first is Administration, with a budget of

R92,9 million; the second is Investigation and Information

Management, with R98,8 million; and the third is Legal Services, with R5,4 million.

One of the spending priorities for the directorate over the 2012-13 period is the filling of new positions in the staff complement.

Almost 34 new posts have been created for the 2012-13 financial year and 26 of them fall under Programme 2: Investigation and Information

Management. This is to appoint 17 investigators and nine provincial

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 71 of 94 heads. Over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework the staff of the directorate will increase to 520.

Skills development to enable the investigators to deal with the redefined mandate of the IPID is a further cost driver in this financial year. All the investigators must attend training, where they will be taken through the Act. Training will focus on such topics as DNA, torture, forensic and ballistic evidence collection, medico-legal evidence, corruption, firearm training and report writing.

With the growth in numbers, the accommodation needs of the directorate will expand, especially in the provinces. Currently, in addition to its nine provincial offices, the directorate has six satellite offices throughout the country. It plans to open a further two during this financial year, one in George in the Western Cape and one in Tshwane in Gauteng.

We in the ANC are concerned that the satellite office in George was supposed to open during the 2011-12 financial year, but little progress seems to have been made to date. We would like to see better planning in this regard. The ANC is also not convinced that the decision to open a satellite office in Tshwane on the same premises as the national office is motivated by the right reasons.

According to the ANC, the purpose of establishing satellite offices

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 72 of 94 is to bring services closer to the people. One cannot but wonder whether this was not done rather to deal with a too big head office.

The ANC is still concerned about a number of issues relating to the effective functioning of the IPID. We are uncomfortable that the increase indicated in Programme 2, which deals with investigation, seems to be cosmetic, because 17 posts in that environment equals less than two new investigators per province. Furthermore, Programme

1, which deals with administration, still seems to be taking a big chunk of the budget of the directorate.

With the additional resources invested in the IPID and the increase in the number of its staff members, the ANC would expect to see a significant improvement in its investigative work. It cannot be acceptable that in a single report on a death in a police cell in the North West, the same investigator refers to three different objects used by the detainee to commit suicide - a tie, a rope and a belt. Investigation of such poor quality would not stand up in a court of law.

The ANC strongly believes that there should be a differentiation in indicators when dealing with investigation. It cannot be argued that there are no benchmarks for issues such as death in police custody.

All the different categories that fall within the mandate of the directorate cannot be clustered together. This needs to be corrected.


Hon Minister, the ANC is worried about the will and ability of the

IPID to execute its redefined mandate. The case in Limpopo, when a police officer assaulted a youth and the cellphone video went viral, is a case in point. The case was first reported in the Sowetan in

November 2011 , and it was only after a public outcry in March 2012 that IPID actually got involved. It is of the utmost importance that the directorate deals with cases timeously and effectively. They are the architects of their own credibility, and failure or success will be determined by their own actions.

The ANC will monitor the implementation of the Act and the capacitating of the investigators, also in regard to numbers, with a keen eye. We will applaud success and highlight shortcomings, because it is in the interests of the people. Chair, I am still on time! [Interjections.] [Laughter.] Hon Minister, the ANC supports the budget of the IPID.

Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, firstly, I would like to congratulate the hon Minister for taking a positive and bold step and a hands-on approach to ensuring the safety and security of all our people.

We must be realistic when confronted with challenges, because crime is one of the obstacles to the advancement of any country, and South

Africa is not unique in this. Irrespective of political affiliation, we all fly one flag and it is incumbent upon all of us to march forward with courage, conviction and determination. We must never

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 74 of 94 stop until we have delivered a caring and a truly crime-free society.

True accolades must undoubtedly be awarded to all those policemen and policewomen who execute their duties with honesty, integrity and hard work.

The MF urges that the SAPS should be an institution that is friendly and approachable, and understands the Code of Conduct for the Police

Service. We need to put a system in place, one that we are all aware of, so that if a matter is reported there are checks in place to ensure that it has been sufficiently and successfully addressed by the police. A police officer who has not addressed a matter appropriately must be dealt with. This will ensure accountability by the Police Service.

Hon Minister, the MF is also concerned about our recruitment criteria. We must ensure that there is a clear distinction among new recruits between those who simply want to earn a salary and those who have the aptitude and desire to be career policemen or policewomen.

Critics have raised concerns, as some police officers do not know when, who and how to shoot. There must be particular circumstances when you may pull the trigger. Recently, a boy was shot in a car when he was playing with a toy gun which, it seems, appeared to the

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 75 of 94 police to be a real gun. No warning shot was fired. When the police are suspicious, they must not be trigger happy. Another incident was when teachers were on strike and the police pulled the trigger. We must ensure that we have police officers who are skilled and caring.

The issues of bribery and corruption must be dealt with appropriately. Cases of child abuse, corporal punishment and sexual abuse at schools must not be swept under the carpet. In areas where there is a high rate of drug abuse, even at schools, people are let off easily and loosely.

Hon Minister, every person has the right to believe and practise their religion. The red string outrage that took place in the Hindu policeman’s case is a violation of this right, which is enshrined in our Constitution. Was a search done on all policemen and policewomen? To do it selectively to Hindus is discriminatory and racist, and smacks of victimisation. One would like to ask: To what extent did the red string interfere with the uniform of the police?

He did not put on a kurta, a hat or a traditional Zulu outfit. The red string merely symbolises love, peace and protection. I am reminded, however, of the prophetic words of Mahatma Gandhi that he would allow the windows of his home to be open. The MF supports the

Budget Vote. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr D J STUBBE: Chairperson, Members of Parliament, members of the public and members of the police, the newly created Independent


Police Investigative Directorate formally commenced its duties on 1

April this year. While the directorate has significantly improved on its predecessor, the Independent Complaints Directorate, it has similar constraints in regards to insufficient funding to effectively perform its constitutionally defined role as police watchdog.

The directorate is tasked with solving thousands of murder, rape, assault and corruption cases involving police across the country every year. Concerning the sharp increase in the number of cases of police brutality, murder, assault and misconduct in the past four years, the directorate’s role in ensuring that police play by the book and abide by the law is becoming increasingly important.

Weak legislation and a lack of funding severely hampered the efforts of the ICD, coupled with what seemed to be a deliberate decision on the part of the Ministry to give them the smallest possible budget.

This resulted in over 80% of their recommendations to the SAPS about criminality within their ranks being ignored. The directorate, with its more focused and beefed-up mandate, cannot afford to be crippled by the same challenges. The DA accordingly maintains that increasing the directorate’s funding should be a priority for Parliament and government.

The directorate needs to be adequately resourced in order to effectively focus on what has been described by its director as


“systemic corruption within the police and the metro police services”. The IPID must be able to “attack this cancer within certain elements of the law enforcement agencies”, to quote Mr

Beukman.

Parliament has gone to great lengths to ensure that the directorate has the teeth to curb rogue police officers. The strengthened legislative mandate must be coupled with more appropriate budgetary commitments. [Applause.]

Ms A VAN WYK: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, members of the House, Acting National Commissioner of Police,

Secretary of Police, Executive Director of the IPID and senior management of the SAPS, policing consists of three broad but key sets of activities: visibility and patrol through visible policing programmes, crowd management, and investigation.

Investigation is conducted by detectives. It is generally agreed that investigation is central to the management of crime. If the investigation of crime fails and the perception exists that criminals go unpunished, it cannot be expected that police will be able to reduce crime or that the social processes that can impact on crime will do so positively.

Minister, you have declared this year the Year of the Detective and we want to support that. It is a strong belief of the ANC that while

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 78 of 94 we have grown the numbers of the SAPS over the last couple of years, we have not been giving adequate attention to the numbers of challenges of the detective environment, the Criminal Record Centre and Forensic Science Laboratory in the same way.

When one looks at the budget allocation for detectives, it is clear that this intention is reflected in the Budget as well. The overall programme, Programme 3, increased from R11,96 billion to

R13,16 billion in the 2012-13 financial year. The budget for the detectives increased by R1 billion from R7,5 billion to

R8,6 billion. The Criminal Record Centre’s budget increased from

R1,34 billion to R1,51 billion in this financial year.

The hon Chikunga has dealt with the Forensic Science Laboratory and

I am not going to repeat it here.

Provision has also been made for a significant increase in the allocation to the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation -the

Hawks. The budget of the Hawks increases from R1,05 billion to

R1,23 billion in this financial year. Hon Minister, we need to ensure that the increases are spent where they will have the greatest impact on improving the performance of the detectives and as such contribute to further bringing down the crime figures in

South Africa. In the detective environment the increase will be used not only to further increase the number of detectives, but also to provide detectives with the required training.


An amount will also be dedicated to improving the performance of the

Stock Theft Unit. The ANC supports this initiative wholeheartedly.

Stock theft leaves subsistence farmers in ruin and can be devastating to commercial farmers. Every effort to improve the functioning of these units should be supported.

Hon Minister, the granted number of detectives in the SAPS is

19 537. The actual number of detectives is 20 985. For a number of years now we have indicated that we need to establish what the ideal number of detectives is supposed to be. For the first time this year we were provided with a figure of 26 736. Clearly, we still have a long road to travel before we get to that point, but now at least we have a target to work towards. The ANC will closely monitor the progress made in reaching this goal.

However, if one starts taking a closer look at the number of detectives in the SAPS, an interesting picture emerges. The Auditor-

General reported in 2000 that in 1998 there were 22 034 detectives - more than we have currently. However, in the early 1990s and late

1980s there were in the region of only 7 000 detectives. At some point during the years that followed uniformed members investigating traffic offences were also counted as detectives. This may explain why we still have older detectives at station level who have not been properly or fully trained as detectives.


Of further interest, if one takes a closer look at the numbers, it becomes clear that, in fact, since 1998 there has not been significant growth in the detective environment – in reality there was a decline in figures. It raises the question as to whether the detective environment over the past decade has been taken seriously by SAPS management?

Too often, when we visit police stations on our oversight visits, we find detectives at a station carrying 60 to 90 cases, but not being trained at all. What is more, one will find group commanders who have not been fully trained either. But I believe the most worrying aspect of this is the fact that often branch commanders are at stations without having undergone the required training, neither as detectives, nor as managers. Now, I do not see how one can expect a team of detectives to perform optimally if they are not fully equipped to do the job. Furthermore, these group and branch commanders are expected to lead and mentor other investigators while they themselves are still in need of further training.

This reality brings us back to the basic issue of appointments being made that are fit for purpose and within properly executed career pathing. The ANC has long argued that proper career pathing in the

SAPS exists only in the minds of some people within SAPS and in a file or files gathering dust on a shelf somewhere in headquarters.

This not only plays itself out in the detective environment, but manifests itself in the issue of promotion, which was addressed by

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 81 of 94 the hon Chikunga in her speech. If proper career pathing did exist, every single police member would know what was required of them in order to move up in the organisation.

Hon Minister, you have indicated to us the training of detectives that will take place this year. It is welcomed, but it still does not provide us with a clear plan on how the department will go about reaching its ideal number of detectives. We do not want to see a repetition of simply chasing numbers without the required training and the correct people for the job.

The status of detectives – they are considered to be of low prestige within the SAPS - is often indicated by former detectives who leave the service for the private sector as one of the reasons why they have left. In fact, many have indicated that financially they were no better off outside the SAPS. Over many years the SAPS has also lost detectives to the uniformed branches of the police, because that became the only option for upward mobility.

In the Year of the Detective, this is something that we need to address in a focused and dedicated manner. Detective retention becomes extremely important, not only in ensuring that we retain well-qualified, experienced detectives, but also because the loss of skills means fewer mentors for new detectives. It impacts on teamwork and adds to the workload of those experienced detectives who remain behind.


As far back as August 2004 the Detective Services Division requested

Career Management in the SAPS to investigate the possibility of developing a career path for detectives. Subsequently, a number of events took place that led to a Draft Policy for Detectives’ Career

Path. However, since 2006 the issue has died a silent death.

Hon Minister, this committee – and, in fact, this Parliament, the

Auditor-General’s Office, the Department of Justice and

Constitutional Development and the Department Correctional Services, as well as the legal fraternity and, more importantly, you yourself

- have raised issues pertaining to a skills development programme plan to address the following: poor statement taking, empowering investigators, the retention of experienced detectives, the high volumes of dockets per detective, the delays in investigations, the high withdrawal rate in court, the overcrowding of not only our prisons, but also our police cells by awaiting-trial detainees, and the low conviction rates.

Hon Minister, the existing draft plan deals with these. It was developed in the SAPS, contextualising South Africa’s unique needs and requirements. It creates horizontal and vertical mobility within the detective service. The strategy addresses the following: the retention of expert skills required in the detective environment; improving the skills levels and competency of all investigators; improving service delivery in the detective environment; linking the career path to remuneration; recognising that careers are more

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 83 of 94 likely to develop within homogeneous levels of responsibility rather than by progressing up a number of steps; and providing the opportunity for detective managers to return to the operational field.

This plan takes the Detective Services out of the 20th century and into the 21st century. It is progressive in nature and it deals with so many of the burning issues and questions in a comprehensive, well thought through and innovative way. I would like to request you as the Minister of Police to intervene in this matter. In the Year of the Detective, declared so by yourself, ask the department to present this plan to you. Also ask them to explain why no attention has been given to its implementation in the SAPS since 2006.

The ANC welcomes the inclusion of conviction rates for detectives.

Furthermore, we welcome the alignment of these conviction rates in the way that it is done in the Department of Justice and

Constitutional Development. This is an important improvement and will allow us to have a better idea of the success of the criminal justice system across the various departments. We believe, however, that we still have far too many cases that are closed as

“undetected” over a year. The management of the detective unit should find out what the reasons for this are and find solutions to the problem.


Furthermore, we should note that if we seriously want to bring down the crime figures in South Africa, this cannot be done without crime prevention playing a strong role. Prevention will result in fewer cases and will bring down the number of dockets per detective, so as to achieve a better rate of conviction. We must also ensure that detectives at all levels of the SAPS are busy with their primary task, namely that of investigation, and that they are not being used by station commissioners to chase arrest rates.

The Criminal Record Centre receives a considerable chunk of the increase in this environment. Apart from the increase in the budget, they receive a further R317 million from the earmarked funds from the criminal justice revamp. This should be used by the CRC to modernise the procedures for updating the records of offenders across the criminal justice system.

The ANC believes that the integration of the criminal justice system is not progressing as it should be. Over the years billions of rands have been spent for that purpose, but technologically speaking we are not much closer to an integrated information system. You addressed this issue, hon Minister, when you said you had asked the

Hawks to look at this matter. The ANC will closely monitor the progress made in this regard during this financial year.

Between the Criminal Record Centre, the FSL and police stations, we also want to see a marked improvement in the way they deal with SAPS


13, evidence stores, as they are called. The lack of adherence to processes and procedures can lead to seriously compromising the chain of evidence when presented in court.

As far as Crime Intelligence is concerned, in its open funds the programme receives a nominal increase. The ANC remains concerned about the way crime intelligence officers are used at station level.

Too often they are used as secretaries for meetings or to compile a station’s statistics on behalf of station management. We believe they should be utilised and play a central role in providing stations with information regarding the prevention of crime and also in investigation. It seems that the value of good intelligence information is not understood.

A further issue that the ANC believes needs attention is a proper value measurement of intelligence reports. It exists in other departments. What do the 28 145 intelligence reports, which are the performance target for this year, mean? Are these written or oral reports? Are they one-liners? How does the SAPS know that those reports contribute to either the prevention of crime or the arrest of suspects? A proper measurement tool would empower the SAPS management not only to manage this environment better, but also to enable the importance of quality intelligence reports in the fight against crime to be understood - not only after it has happened but, more importantly, in preventing it from happening. In this regard we just need to look at the number of public protests that have

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 86 of 94 occurred and the SAPS’s seemingly being caught unaware of and unprepared for such protests. If crime intelligence were functioning fully and effectively, that would be the exception, not the rule.

Finally, hon Minister, I want to get to the Civilian Secretariat for

Police. This is the last year that the secretariat will be a cost centre of the SAPS, and we welcome that. The secretariat’s budget for the financial year is R63,27 million. As the secretariat is a personnel-intensive organisation, R45,5 million of the funds will go to the personnel budget, while R17,77 million will be spent on the operational budget.

As of next year the secretariat will be a designated department. The secretariat is in the process of filling the positions that were created as a result of its becoming a designated department.

We are expecting much more from the secretariat in the years ahead.

We can never allow the Civilian Secretariat for Police to regress to the state it was in. This responsibility does not rest only on the incumbent, but on every single person in the secretariat. The

Civilian Secretariat for Police represents the citizen’s interest in the SAPS. We are expecting them to contribute in a scientific and professional manner to the policies and procedures of the SAPS so that it positively impacts on the overall fight against crime. We expect the secretariat to be that organisation whose point of view

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 87 of 94 cannot be ignored, because of the value that it should add to the debate.

When in the committee, we deal with the SAPS budget. Next year we want to be able to call the secretariat and ask them: Do you believe the budget is addressing the priorities as set out in the policy? We want to know that the work and findings of the Monitoring and

Evaluation Unit in the secretariat are making a difference in the service delivery of the SAPS and are not just gathering dust on a shelf.

We are also looking forward to their, through the Minister, tabling the review of the White Paper on the police so that we can at last start with the complete redrafting of the SAPS Act, which is still to a large extent based on the interim Constitution.

Chairperson and hon Minister, in this House we have a choice. It is actually a very simple choice, but also one that, depending on your outlook in life, can be very challenging. The choice is whether I, and you, want to be part of the solution or whether we simply prefer to add to the challenge by howling and repeating the same accusations, personal insults and empty rhetoric, albeit in the form of sound bites. We in the ANC have made our choice. Our choice is to roll up our sleeves, to put our hands in the dishwater and to start dealing with the dirty dishes. [Applause.] [Interjections.] We do not choose to stand in the corner of the kitchen and shout and

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 88 of 94 scream abuse at the dirty dishes, hoping they will sort themselves out. [Laughter.]

On 17 April 2012, when the Portfolio Committee on Police started its

Budget hearings with the department, the chairperson, the hon

Chikunga, provided the committee with the opportunity to engage the department on the issues of the head of Crime Intelligence, the provincial head of the Hawks in KZN and the Cato Manor issue.

Members had the opportunity to put questions to the department and the department responded. At the end of the response of the department, the hon chairperson provided each political party on the committee with the opportunity to make a statement.

On behalf of the ANC, I responded by saying that no one person or organisation was above the rule of law and that we believed the continuous negative reports on senior police officers were bad for morale in the SAPS and caused the public trust in the Police to deteriorate. I said that we in the ANC wanted all accusations to be investigated without fear or favour. The ANC would like to see that all of these allegations are fully and thoroughly investigated, that if anyone has a case to answer for, they will be brought before a court of law - not a kangaroo court.

Interestingly enough, every single political party, with the exception of the DA, agreed with these sentiments. When the opportunity was presented to them to make a statement, the hon


Kohler-Barnard responded that she was not asking to say anything.

Why is this? Why is it that when the surname of a suspect is

Booysen, Meyer, Terreblanche or Van Niekerk, the hon member will be quiet and not say a word - she won’t even ask a question! But when the surname is Shabangu, Mdluli or Lazarus, the member will be the first, the loudest and the most persistent? [Interjections.]

HON MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Ms A VAN WYK: I think the answer is obvious for all to see.

[Applause.]

The ANC repeats itself here, again, today. We expect those bodies that have been tasked with investigating the various allegations, including those against the head of the Hawks in KZN, to do so without fear or favour. They must also do so with haste, because we believe that the nature of these reports is negative for the police and undermines our fight against crime. We in the ANC want to see that if there is a case to answer for and those who have to answer must be brought to book, irrespective of who they are.

This is probably the most difficult debate to sweep that I have ever been in, because how does one sweep candy floss? [Laughter.] The hon

Kohler-Barnard today missed a great opportunity to deal with issues that are of real concern to this committee. [Interjections.] This is a committee that is robust in its oversight and will continue to be

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 90 of 94 robust in its oversight in the interest of the people. She could have raised real issues. Instead she sounded like ...

Mr D J MAYNIER: On a point of order, Chair: the hon Kohler-Barnard dealt with the real issues! The real issue is Richard Mdluli and this Minister ... [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order, hon member! I did not give you an opportunity to raise a point of order. In future, wait until I recognise you. Continue, hon member.

Ms A VAN WYK: Thank you, Chairperson. Instead the hon Kohler-Barnard sounded like a stuck gramophone - Mdluli, Mdluli, Mdluli [Laughter.]

She acted as if there were no police in this country. I want to know: Where do the thousands of prisoners in our Correctional

Services facilities come from? Do they knock at night and say, “Here we are, voluntarily, and we are putting ourselves in prison?” Who put them there?

It is a pity that the leader of the DA in Parliament has left, because I want to know whether it is a prerequisite for the spokesperson of the DA on police to have selective hearing or to be selective in what she remembers. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to thank the hon members for their contributions. [Interjections.]


The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr C T Frolick): Order!

The MINISTER OF POLICE: The louder the noise, the emptier the vessel! [Interjections.] What members have said here has been noted.

People have raised a number of issues.

Firstly, the issue of crime and corruption, regardless of who is involved, will be pursued. It really does not matter who the person is. It would have been advisable for the hon Kohler-Barnard to have emphasised that general principle, and not to see issues of fighting crime from a narrow, racialistic point of view. Once you get past that, we will know that you are genuine about fighting crime.

[Interjections.]

The member has been very silent on the issue of leases this year. I do not know why, because her entire speech on last year’s Budget

Vote was about leases. I do not know whether this still has to do with issues of race; that somebody else is involved today. Be that as it may, we do not expect much from that quarter.

Hon Ramatlakane, we heard what you said. You complimented the police personnel members who worked hard. You also raised the issue of the manipulation of crime statistics in a specific area in Limpopo. This happened in the past and people were taken to task. Another point was the lack of action on Lt-Gen Richard Mdluli. Hon member, as you know, the Inspector-General of Intelligence is busy with that

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 92 of 94 matter. The process will continue and we would like that process to be respected because this is a competent agency of government.

Sikuzwile Bab ‘uNdlovu ngendaba yokuthi akuphenywe, ikakhulukazi kulaba bezobuChwepheshe bezokuXhumana, kanye noPhiko lwezokuSatshalaliswa kweziDingo, SCM. Amaphuzu abalulekile lawo owashilo, Zonke izinto ozishilo zizolandelwa. Kodwa-ke ngifuna ukusho ukuthi kubantu abaqashwayo emaphoyiseni njengamanje, sinohlelo oluthi ... (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[We heard what you said, Mr Ndlovu, about your suggestion to launch an investigation, especially on information and communication technology and the branch that deals with service delivery, Supply

Chain Management, SCM. You raised some important points: all of them will be considered. But I want to tell you, with regard to the new police recruits, that we have a programme called ...]

... “From Recruitment to Retirement”, in which we look at the entire human resources value chain and say: What is it that we need to do?

Where do we need to improve so that the kind of people we are talking about become history?

Hon Groenewald, I thank you for being here at the end of this Budget

Vote, because normally I miss you around this time. [Interjections.]

The FF Plus asked us to work with you. Government works with everybody, and we have been looking for you, but we have not been

EPC 9 MAY 2012 PAGE: 93 of 94 able to find you! [Laughter.] Regarding the issue of farm murders, many stakeholders are involved, such as the trade union movement and

Agri SA. Everybody is involved. But, you are standing somewhere far away, across the river! Come and be part of the process. Come closer and be part of the process of fighting crime, including crime on farms. [Applause.] After all, the farms are not only about farmers.

There are farm workers and their families - it is a big community.

We will continue looking for you, but please come closer. You are a bit too far away!

I also noticed that you read a lot of newspapers these days. The problem with the papers is that you will find some truths in them, some untruths, some half-truths and so on. You happened to have read the wrong one. Do not depend on the papers. Any man who depends entirely on newspapers is wasting his time because you will not find the entire truth in them.

Regarding what the ACDP said ...

... Bab ‘uMfundisi siyakuzwa njengoba ukhulumile. Empeleni yilungelo lakho. [Reverend, we heard what you said. In fact, it is your right.

It is all right if you do not want to support the Budget Vote, but you are labouring under the same misconception. This is the Police

Budget Vote, not Justice. What happens at the National Prosecuting

Agency and everywhere else has nothing to do with this Budget Vote.


I think they gave you the wrong speech. They gave you one for

Justice instead of Police. [Laughter.]

Chairperson, we invite members to have dinner with us at the Old

Assembly Chamber after this. Thank you.

Debate concluded.

The Committee rose at 16:33.

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