A conversation with Charles L. Hughes
Author of Country Soul:
Making Music and Making Race in the American South
Published March 23, 2015
$29.95 cloth, ISBN 978-1-4696-2243-9
Q: What is the “country-soul triangle”? Where did that phrase come from, and why
is it so appropriate?
A: I developed the term “country-soul triangle” to refer to a network of recording studios
in Memphis and Nashville, Tennessee, and Muscle Shoals, Alabama. At legendary places
like FAME and Stax, black and white musicians produced a wealth of classic recordings
in the 1960s and 1970s. Each city had its own successful scene, of course, but I’m
interested in exploring the many connections between them—sounds and players traveled
back and forth between these three cities, leading the triangle to become a center of the
era’s music industry and turning each city’s signature “sound” into an internationallyrecognized symbol of quality. Musicians in the triangle recorded with a wide variety of
artists, but they were most associated with country, soul, and their stylistic blends. So it
felt appropriate to term it the country-soul triangle.
Q: Who are some of the prominent artists who recorded in the country-soul triangle
that you talk about in the book?
A: The list of artists who recorded in Memphis, Muscle Shoals, and Nashville during this
period is truly overwhelming. Even in a book like this, I could only scratch the surface.
Still, I tried to discuss as many performers as possible. I talk about soul stars from Aretha
Franklin to the Staple Singers to Joe Tex; country artists including Willie Nelson,
Charley Pride, and Dolly Parton; and pop and rock artists ranging from the Osmonds to
the Rolling Stones to Dusty Springfield. The artists who recorded hits in the country-soul
triangle—whether homegrown artists or visiting stars—form a constellation that
demonstrates just how significant Memphis, Muscle Shoals, and Nashville were to the
era’s popular music. It’s really exciting to spotlight them in the book.
Q: Although you talk about many of the famous artists who recorded in the triangle,
you focus primarily on the behind-the-scenes musicians at these studios. Why did
you choose this approach?
A: These musicians were the most important reason for the triangle’s success in so many
genres. Their versatility and efficiency made them some of the most in-demand players of
their era, and they established Memphis, Muscle Shoals, and Nashville as places where a
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wide variety of artists could go to cut successful records. They were also central to the
way that country and soul developed artistically and culturally—not only did they
develop the actual music, but they established the genres as symbols of race and politics
in the 1960s and 1970s. Relatedly, they also dealt with racial politics on the most
concrete level, thanks to their ongoing collaborations in the studio. Whether they were
well known (like Stax’s Booker T. and the MGs) or less famous (like the FAME Gang in
Muscle Shoals), the musicians dealt with the complex realities of racialized sound and an
interracial workplace on a day-to-day basis. The results weren’t always positive, and
certainly weren’t always equitable, but they were pivotal to understanding their larger
historical importance. For that reason, I found them to be the most illuminating people to
anchor my discussions.
Q: You suggest that these musicians, and the music they created, weren’t just
important to the history of popular music. You also suggest that they had a
significant effect on racial politics in the United States. What can the country-soul
triangle teach us about this crucial period?
A: Both country and soul were closely identified with the era’s tumultuous racial politics.
Soul was presented as the soundtrack of black America in the period of civil rights and
black power, while country became known as the authentic voice of the white workingclass and the accompaniment for the rise of the conservative “New Right.” At the same
time, they were produced in interracial contexts, and the existence of integrated studios
was heralded around the world as a sign of integration and progress. I’m fascinated by
this contradiction, and I wanted to examine how the musicians helped to shape it
throughout this period. Their stories demonstrate the complexity of music’s role as
symbol and mechanism of political change in the 1960s and 1970s.
Q: Many readers of Country Soul will be familiar with the 2013 documentary
Muscle Shoals. What is your own personal response to the film? What do you think
it got right, and what else would you like fans of the movie to know?
A: I really enjoyed Muscle Shoals, and I was particularly happy to see the Shoals
musicians get their due credit for their significant role in shaping American popular
music of the last 50 years. To see and hear them discuss their achievements, along with
so many of the artists they worked with and influenced, was a welcome confirmation of
their importance and a wonderful tribute to their accomplishments. On top of that, the
film was filled with great footage and sounds, so—as a fan of the music—I was thrilled
to watch it. At the same time, Muscle Shoals also reflects a common simplified narrative,
particularly in terms of race, that I’m trying to complicate with the book. It presents the
Shoals studios (particularly in the early days) as something of a utopia where race wasn’t
an issue, but I discuss numerous racial conflicts and more broadly demonstrate that race
was a central concern of the musicians working in the Shoals. Additionally, the film
focuses largely on white men—most prominently FAME Studios founder Rick Hall—
while marginalizing the accomplishments (and criticisms) of the many black artists who
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participated as both studio musicians and performers. (For that matter, many of the
important white contributors got minimized too.) As I discuss in Country Soul, this
reflects a larger tendency to credit white people as the visionary heroes and treat African
Americans as passive or secondary participants. I not only discuss the historical roots of
this narrative, but address its continuing implications.
Q: How did you get interested in this topic?
A: I came to this story through the music. Country, soul, and their hybrids have long been
among my deepest musical loves. From Dolly Parton and Charlie Rich to Otis Redding
and the Staple Singers, I’ve realized that many of my favorite artists and recordings are
products of the country-soul triangle. I also grew interested in the musicians and
songwriters working behind-the-scenes, people like George Jackson, Dan Penn, and the
Muscle Shoals Rhythm Section, who helped create so many great records, in so many
different genres. As a historian of race and the South, I became fascinated by the
existence of these interracial collaborations that existed in the heart of racial turmoil. I
wanted to explore the story of how this occurred and try to illustrate these musicians’
importance to the broader story of race in the United States.
Q: What’s the most surprising thing you found in your research?
A: I’d say there were two major things. First, I was surprised at the extent of R&B/soul’s
influence on all sectors of country music. I was certainly aware of the impact, but it’s
truly remarkable to explore how significant black music was to country, right up through
the days of disco. As I explore in the book, soul music (and its creators) were central to
the way that Nashville producers, executives, and musicians made and marketed country
music. Both “mainstream” and “outlaw” artists used soul music as a way to keep their
music creatively exciting and culturally relevant. Secondly, I didn’t initially realize how
much the triangle’s musicians were responsible for the creation of the narratives that
characterize how we understand the triangle and its impacts. The notion that integrated
recording studios were symbols of the civil rights movement, or the idea that country and
soul were polar opposites, weren’t just the product of writers and fans. They were crucial
to the working lives of musicians in Memphis, Muscle Shoals, and Nashville from the
very beginning. When I realized that, I began to understand the true richness and
complexity of this story.
Q: How do you see the legacy of the country-soul triangle playing out in today’s
popular culture?
A: Musically, there continues to be a deep stylistic overlap between country and soul.
Some of the biggest country stars of today utilize the sounds and songs of R&B, while
many contemporary soul and hip-hop artists (particularly from the South) bring the
characteristics of country onto their records. Then there are the folks in the middle—
many of whom, like Jason Isbell or Valerie June, are from the triangle—who draw from
both traditions and blend them together in new and interesting ways. It remains one of the
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deepest wells of American music. Culturally, the country-soul triangle has had a huge
effect on how we think about race and racial history. On the one hand, country and soul
continue to symbolize the U.S.’s racial divisions. Illustrating the creative and commercial
relationship between country and soul—and the musicians who produced them—is
crucial to complicating that idea and demonstrating its limitations. On the other hand,
we’ve also made the connections between country and soul—and, again, between the
musicians who make them—into a central story of racial reconciliation and healing in the
post-civil rights era.
The stories of Stax Records, Muscle Shoals, and other triangle stories are routinely held
up as historical examples of racial breakthrough and models of racial reconciliation. This
also needs to be complicated. The collaborations that took place in the country-soul
triangle were a historical phenomenon that arose from a certain set of contexts, reflected
a specific set of circumstances, and—most importantly perhaps—didn’t have equal
benefits for both races. In a very real way, the story of the country-soul triangle doesn’t
have a happy ending, and I think the romance and mythology that often surrounds this
story is indicative of a broader distortion of our racial past and present. In Country Soul,
I’m trying to expose and illustrate how that happened and what it meant.
Q: If you had to pick a definitive recording from the country-soul triangle, what
would it be?
A: There’s so much great music—it’s really hard to narrow it down! I think that, if I had
to choose, I’d go with the Staple Singers’ “I’ll Take You There” from 1972. It was
released on Stax Records, at the moment when the Staples became one of the label’s
biggest artists and a symbol of their commitment to civil rights and black power politics
in the early 1970s. Beyond this, it directly references the musical and political
developments of black America in the early 1970s—with its politicized lyrics and reggaeinfluenced arrangement, it’s a perfect statement of soul’s cultural impact. Still, it was
recorded at Muscle Shoals Sound Studios with an all-white rhythm section that had
played on many of the Shoals’ biggest soul hits of the 1960s and was regularly employed
by Stax. So it represents the racial contradiction at the heart of the country-soul triangle,
as well as the remarkable talents of its musicians. Finally, with the success of songs like
“I’ll Take You There,” the Muscle Shoals musicians started to get increased attention
from rock, pop and country artists who looked to the Shoals as a place to make authentic
soul music. This led to a fundamental shift in the triangle’s recording economy, which I
also trace in the book. For all these reasons, the song perfectly represents the
transformative power of the country-soul triangle.
Q: Who’s the most underappreciated artist from the country-soul triangle?
A: It’s difficult to say, especially because so many musicians recorded in Memphis,
Muscle Shoals, and Nashville during these years. There are a lot of folks who never
achieved any commercial success but still made some tremendous recordings. Still, if I
had to pick one who hasn’t achieved the fame they deserve, I’d pick Jerry “Swamp
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Dogg” Williams. Williams has certainly earned acclaim, and he continues to perform and
record, but I don’t think he’s received his due credit as both a fantastic artist and an
important individual in the country-soul triangle. His records (both as Swamp Dogg and
as a songwriter/producer for other artists) symbolize the triangle’s musical richness. He
was strongly influenced by soul, country, rock and blues, and his records are filled with
songs that directly addressed the political issues of the day. Also, his extensive work as a
songwriter and producer—which included a song called “She’s All I’ve Got” that became
a huge country hit for Johnny Paycheck—demonstrates the ease with which triangle
music professionals could travel between genres. At the same time, Williams never broke
through to success as a performer, which seems sadly reflective of an environment when
white artists had greater freedom to experiment and still achieve mainstream success.
He’s a crucial figure in the book and one of my favorite artists.
Q: Do you have a suggested playlist for someone reading your book?
A: There’s so much great music from the country-soul triangle—it’s really hard to
narrow it down! I’ve put together Spotify and YouTube playlists that accompany
Country Soul. (See below for the links.) These playlists are composed primarily of music
that I reference in the book, but with some additional suggestions of artists and songs that
I didn’t directly address. Additionally, there are so many artists and recordings that I
didn’t have time to address in the book or include on the playlists, that I’d encourage
anyone interested to do their own exploring. There’s an endless well of great music from
the country-soul triangle—it’s one of our greatest cultural treasures.
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This interview may be reprinted in part or in its entirety with the following credit: A
conversation with Charles L. Hughes, author of Country Soul: Making Music and
Making Race in the American South (University of North Carolina Press, Spring, 2015).
The text of this interview is available at: www.ibiblio.org/uncp/media/hughes.
PUBLISHING DETAILS
ISBN 978-1-4696-2243-9 $29.95 cloth
Publication date: March 23, 2015
Approx. 280 pp., 24 illus., notes, bibl., index
http://uncpress.unc.edu/books/12833.html
Spotify Playlist: Country Soul: Making Music and Making Race in the American South
YouTube Playlist: http://bit.ly/1u06kKd
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