Muslims in France and Britain
By Jean-Marie Le Breton
November 1998
CONTENTS
1. Key statistical data
2. A permanent place for Islam
3. Paths to integration
3.1. The training of imams
3.2. Funds for places of worship
3.3. The representation of Muslim groups
3.4. A special place for Muslims
4. An end to religious discrimination
5. Greater levels of participation in public life by Muslims
6. The European dimension
7. Conclusion - the democratic route to integration
Appendices:
I
II
III
Seminar programme
List of French participants
List of British participants
Background papers available from the British Section:
Muslims in Britain: the structure of the community (26pp)
Dr Paul Weller, November 1998
Influences from abroad (6pp)
Dr Yunas Samad, November 1998
Muslims in France and Great Britain
1
Considerable changes have occurred in both France and Britain as a result of the sizeable
influx of Muslim immigrants over the last thirty years. In recognition of this, the
Franco-British Council organised a seminar on the subject, held in Paris on 17 and 18
November 1998. Eminent speakers, regarded as authorities in the field, delivered
wide-ranging and in-depth papers during the course of the seminar, leading to no less
wide-ranging and in-depth discussion.
1. Key statistical data
While it is certainly the case, as a number of speakers reminded those gathered, that the two
countries in question have enjoyed close and unbroken ties with Islam for several centuries,
there was general agreement that a change in the nature of this relationship had occurred.
French and British colonial expansionism during the 19th century has produced the direct
corollary of a substantially sized population of followers of Islam settling in the two
countries. It is therefore possible to speak of Islam in France and Britain and of its enjoying
the status of the largest minority religion espoused in the two countries. The seminar set
out to investigate whether one can now move on from referring to 'Islam in France/Britain' to
a specifically 'French/British Islam'.
Particular categories of data had been gathered by contributors with a view to providing
the seminar with a solid statistical basis from which to work. These figures were subsequently
clarified, refined and debated in the course of discussions. Statistics relating to religious
practice in the two countries are difficult to establish and tend to prove unreliable. Estimates
are made, first and foremost, on the basis of population flows and lists of surnames and first
names. While cases of religious conversion were cited during the seminar, the vast majority
of followers of Islam in Britain and France are Muslim immigrants, coming preponderantly
from the Indian subcontinent (in the case of Britain) and from the Maghreb countries of North
Africa (in the case of France). It is estimated that there are between 3 and 5 million Muslims
in France and between 1 and 2 million in Britain.
The point was made that statistics relating to place of origin were by no means irrelevant to
the discussion. The majority of Muslims who have left their country to come to France are
from areas where Islam is the predominant religion; they must, therefore, learn to adapt to
living in a society where they enjoy minority status and where their religious traditions are
generally held in low esteem. Conversely, those who have left the Indian subcontinent to live
in Britain come from regions where they have either been a minority, in religious terms, or
where they have lived for centuries in close proximity with other markedly different
religious groupings.
Another statistical issue highlighted by the seminar was the clear link, as far as the majority
of immigrants were concerned, between indicators of social integration and religious
affiliation. Studies conducted in Britain show higher rates of entry into the job market among
non-Muslim immigrants from the West Indies and the Indian subcontinent than among their
Muslim counterparts. Similar trends have been identified in France. Figures relating to
educational achievement were cited, which pointed in the same direction.
Other statistics indicate that in both countries Muslim immigrants tend to be found at the
most disadvantaged levels of society. For example, in Britain Bangladeshis and Pakistanis
(who are almost all Muslims) appear at the same level as West Indians among minorities with
2
greatest difficulty of access to the job market, whilst Indians (who are mainly Hindus or
Sikhs) are more successful in socio-economic terms. In France a similar contrast can be seen
between groups from the Maghreb and from Indochina. Educational figures quoted show the
same tendency.
Nevertheless, social status is not directly consequent upon religious persuasion and great care
was taken throughout the seminar to avoid claiming any such link. Neither was any
relationship averred in this regard with the levels of urban delinquency or unemployment
affecting underprivileged sections of society.
2. A permanent place for Islam in France and Britain
As the first session of the seminar reached its conclusion, those present agreed unanimously
that the Islamic religion was now clearly established in the two countries under discussion
(as well as in other European countries), that it would endure indefinitely in these societies
and that their political leaders would do well to take full cognisance of these facts.
Problems associated with the presence of Islam were then examined. State authorities in the
immigrant population's countries of origin have on occasion made great efforts to maintain or
strengthen forms of influence over them. The case of Algeria was particularly highlighted in
this respect. Religion can provide state authorities with the leverage to exert such influence
and certain authorities have undoubtedly had recourse to it in this way. A situation has
developed where many immigrants, having settled in a society which tends to leave them cut
off from previous structures, have regained their sense of identity through Islam. The
consequence of this state of affairs was the subject of one strand of discussion. Particular
Muslim countries and international Islamic organisations provide funds for the construction
of centres of worship, for pilgrimages and for training and maintaining imams. In exchange
for such services offered to followers of Islam, they hope to see returns in the form of cultural
or even political influence. British speakers argued however that foreign influence of this
kind has gained ground in Britain only when the agenda of foreign organisations coincides
with locally-felt needs or interests; research has shown that there is no direct correlation
between the size of externally-funded investment and the degree of influence achieved. In the
course of substantial debate about this apparent 'trade off', the question arose as to whether
one should see in it merely the symptoms of 'teething troubles' for French and British Islam.
Contributors to the seminar emphasised that simply to pose this question was in itself to take
a decisive step in the direction of finding a solution. Education clearly has a role to play in
providing an answer to the problem. Even here, however, financial help is all too often
proffered from outside Muslim countries, creating head-on conflict with regulations
governing the country's educational system; this relates most notably to the case of France.
Participants were then encouraged to consider how the Muslim population can fully enter into
French or British society, achieve acceptance there and play a constructive role in social life.
3. Paths to integration
It was generally accepted that there were two alternative paths to integration. On the one
hand, the British are said to favour a community based approach, giving individual groups of
immigrants responsibility for creating their own organisational structures and for
3
safeguarding their own customs and religious practices as they best deem fit to do so. The
guiding principle of this approach is multiculturalism. In the French method, however, efforts
to provide opportunities for integrating into society are said to be channelled along the path of
individual endeavour. According to this French system, the immigrant community's cultural
heritage ostensibly merges into a kind of melting-pot without the role of multiculturalism
being explicitly acknowledged.
The seminar demonstrated that such a clear-cut opposition was more apparent than real. It
was argued that the sense of Muslim identity persists as much in France as in Britain even in
cases where devotion represents more of a cultural reference point than a deeply-held
religious conviction. Conversely, among younger generations in the UK, the strongest and
predominant sense is one of belonging to British society, with the identity traits associated
with Islam only occupying a secondary position. However different the two approaches may
be at the point of departure, in terms of where they lead to in the end, they are quite similar.
All those taking part in the seminar, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, went on to analyse what
one might call the twin aspects of the process of integration of Islam and Muslim people
into the fabric of the two host nations.
Given that in both countries, Islam finds itself in a minority position in terms of both numbers
and cultural values, it must in France and in Britain be organised in such a way that it finds its
own rightful place and no longer provokes reactions of rejection and fear. It must find the
means to secure its own integration, as other religions have done before it. Certain problems,
needing to be addressed equally urgently in the two countries, were clearly identified as
being:
 the training of imams
 the construction of places of worship and
 the extent to which organisations claiming to speak on behalf of Muslim communities are
genuinely representative of them.
3.1. The training of Imams
It was clearly demonstrated that the training of imams is a subject which has to date been
almost totally ignored both by the host nations and the Muslims who live in them. In France,
95% of all imams come from abroad. Their theological training is often of dubious quality
and their country of origin is often a factor which sets them apart from their flock. On
occasions, the lack of a common language of communication between imam and flock leads
to single-country-of-origin congregations forming in particular places of worship. In Britain,
the situation is less marked but still comparable.
Given these circumstances, any moves designed to encourage the emergence of a genuinely
'French/British Islam' must include steps to promote the training of imams in Muslim
theological institutes or faculties. Discussion of this issue was conducted principally among
the French participants present, revolving around the point that general principles of French
law, one specific piece of legislation and the constitution itself forbid the use of public
finance for religious activities. Various ways of addressing this problem, all of them still at an
early stage of development, were put forward.
3. 2. Funds for places of worship
4
Providing funds for places of worship is no less problematical. The present parlous state of
Muslim places of worship, the total number of which is estimated at 1600 in France and 560
in Britain, was forcibly highlighted. Alongside the small handful of Mosques funded by
Muslim states or foreign Islamic organisations, some of which are extremely lavish, one
finds a very large number of places of worship located within the confines of flats, industrial
or commercial premises, garages and even cellars. Comparisons were drawn, in terms of
number, size and quality, with places of worship corresponding to other religions. In France,
scope for placing such buildings at the disposition of religious organisations is provided for
under the terms of a law of 1905. A formula could be sought which would provide Muslim
communities with access to subsidies available to 'cultural centres' under the terms of a law of
1901; within such centres, it was suggested, certain areas could be designated for religious
services. The avenue of seeking association status under French law should at the very least
be explored further. On the British side, mention was made of possible means of action on the
part of donor states with regard to Muslim communities located in the host country.
3.3. The representation of Muslim groups
The third point debated concerned the extent to which the people deemed competent to speak
on behalf of the mass of Muslim believers are truly representative of them. Initiatives
undertaken up until now in this respect in France were adjudged to be inconclusive. Certain
Muslims have been unable to identify themselves with the structures established. At this point
in the discussion, information was provided concerning the consultation exercise currently
under way in Belgium, whose aim is to elect, through universal suffrage of the entire
Muslim population, as registered on ad hoc electoral lists, representatives whose democratic
credentials would thereby be unimpeachable. Some speakers made the point that the widely
heterogeneous make-up of the Muslim population militated strongly against the emergence of
representatives able to speak in its collective name. On the British side, representation of
Muslim communities is genuinely defined at the local level. Several French speakers
expressed the view that any representative system should look to follow this example.
3.4. A special place for Muslims
The three issues described above thus stand as key factors in the process of integrating
Muslims into French and British society and, by extension, of promoting the robust growth of
Islam there. The seminar went on to explore various avenues by which the prospects of
witnessing a truly French/British Islam might be enhanced. To achieve this end, the Muslim
religion would need to fashion a place for itself alongside other more traditional religions,
some of which have been rooted in the host nations' culture for many centuries.
4. An end to religious discrimination
An issue which was frequently raised concerned the allied problems of religious
discrimination and racial prejudice. In Britain, where racial prejudice against blacks is
decreasing, prejudice against Muslims is not. Young Muslims in both countries feel
discriminated against, in terms of both culture and religion. A broad consensus emerged in
favour of the need to oppose such attitudes firmly. Muslim speakers deplored the double
standards often applied when questions of respect for matters of religious conscience are
5
concerned, invariably at the expense of Muslims. The wearing of the ceremonial veil at
school aroused strong passions in France and provoked serious disagreements on the subjects
of secularism and religious practices (in the state education system). In Britain, despite the
fact that Salman Rushdie's novel The Satanic Verses was and still is considered
blasphemous, the Islamic community in Britain has been unable to invoke blasphemy laws
against it since the laws are designed solely to protect the country's established religion.
Cultural diversity should be a legitimate policy goal, but at the same time government must
be concerned about social exclusion. If young Muslim men feel excluded, they become
vulnerable to external influences. In one London borough 60% of young Muslim men are
involved in drugs and drug-related crime. The question of discrimination in the job market
was also addressed. A contrast between the education systems in the two countries was
presented; whilst in Great Britain local negotiation with the Muslim community over methods
of teaching and consultation with Muslim representatives over the content of school
textbooks was increasing, in France religious instruction is excluded from the syllabus and
the pupils are instead given Wednesday afternoon off with this in mind. The question of
attitudes to gender relations was raised as was that of the way in which contentious periods of
history are taught in schools. It was pointed out that the latter issue involved not only
relations with Islam but also those between different European nations. Positive progress
made in this regard, concerning the specific case of Franco-German relations, were held up as
a model from which positive lessons could be drawn.
5. Greater levels of participation in public life by Muslims
A similar level of unanimity was expressed, from both British and French quarters, on the
need for Muslims to be given broader scope to participate in public administration and
political life. Trade unions and political parties both have important roles to play in this
process and criticism was levelled at the reluctance displayed at central management level in
this regard in contrast to the local level where integration is fostered far more readily.
Several speakers drew attention to progress made towards integrating Islam through the
avenue of contemporary cultural developments, whether in the fields of popular music,
literature or radio and television. New forms of expression, carrying original ideas and
viewpoints are emerging and are gaining significant resonance among the young, especially in
disadvantaged urban areas. We are apparently witnessing the emergence of a new culture,
which taps cultural roots from the performers' country of origin as well as other trends from
the United States and fashions out of them authentically new French or British messages.
The point was underlined that new generations share the same concerns and ambitions and
seek the same goals regardless of their country of origin and religious affiliation.
This observation led those present to state that it was time for this situation to be taken fully
on board. Islam has now taken its place alongside Catholicism, Anglicanism, Protestantism,
Judaism and Buddhism within the rich tapestry of religious life in our two countries. Its right
to occupy this place should be fully recognised. Certain psychological barriers have at times
obstructed the smooth passage of this process, with first-generation immigrants feeling a less
than wholehearted sense of belonging to the host country.
The vitality of French and British cultures, their ability to adapt to new circumstances and the
resources enjoyed by their schools, universities, radio and television networks and
6
professional institutions have all made their own positive contributions since the first
large-scale influxes of Muslims took place. It was felt that the institutions of the two
countries in question and the democratic options provided by their social systems offered the
surest prospects for Islam to become fully integrated into the fabric of British and French
nationhood.
6. The European dimension
Several speakers broadened the terms of discussion to include all of Europe (not just the
Union, but Europe as a whole) on the basis that many other European countries were today
facing similar problems to those described above. Recent declarations by the newly installed
German government concerning 'the right to nationality by place of birth' were deemed to be
very significant. It may be possible to envisage the long-term emergence of a 'European
Islam'. Some even spoke of a 'Western Islam' with the prospect of Muslims living throughout
Europe, enjoying equal status with other sections of the community. Neither simplistic
multiculturalism nor assimilation can address today’s problems easily. It was asserted that
Europe had no majority community and much cultural variation; how therefore could one talk
euphemistically of ‘ethnic minorities’?
Meanwhile, as several speakers said, there is every prospect that the process of integration
will gather momentum, driven forward by a variety of factors, including the prompting of the
young and, even more significantly, by the forces of democracy. Of course, barriers to
progress remain in place, based for the most part on ignorance of each other's cultures and
knee-jerk reactions of the past. The Churches are playing a positive role in resolving these
problems and the structures for ongoing dialogue are being put in place.
7. Conclusion - the democratic route to integration
Throughout the seminar divergences in the approach adopted by France and Britain in no way
impeded a fruitful exchange of viewpoints. Even perennial topics, such as secularism in
France, were given scope for reassessment by being set within the framework of an
integration/exclusion dialectical opposition. Religious rivalry is becoming less intense in
today's Western World as atheism, abetted by consumerism in society, continues to spread.
The seminar raised the question of whether continuing pressure for greater democracy in
society might not be carrying us towards a new type of nation state in which religious and
philosophical beliefs would be called upon to redefine social structures so as to assist the
fight against exclusion and narrow self-interest.
7
Appendix I
[Dominique - start on RH page]
L’ISLAM EN FRANCE ET EN GRANDE BRETAGNE
MUSLIMS IN BRITAIN AND FRANCE
PARIS, 17 - 18 November 1998
PROGRAMME
Tuesday 17 November
15.15
Introduction and opening remarks by joint Chairmen:
Pierre Joxe, Premier Président de la Cour des Comptes
Michael Head, Vice-Chair, European Commission against Racism, Intolerance and
Xenophobia
I. Current situation - structure of the two communities
A)
The Muslim community
introduced by Dr Paul Weller and M. Sadek Sellam
- numbers, history of arrival in Britain and France
- ethnic origins
- geographical distribution and extent of religious observance
B)
The position of Muslims in the two countries
introduced by M. Franck Fregosi
- representative structures
- organisation and places of worship
C)
Muslims and the education system
- Muslim pupils in schools
- teaching and secularism
DISCUSSION
18. 30
Close
of first session
8
Wednesday 18 November
09.00
II. Influences from abroad
Introduced by Dr Yunas Samad and M. Rémy Leveau
A)
B)
Involvement of foreign Islamic organisations
- financing, places of worship, pilgrimages, education
Involvement of Muslim countries
- recruitment and training of imams
- mosques, community structures, associations
DISCUSSION
C)
Cultural impact and resulting policies
Introduced by Professor Tariq Modood and M. Gilles Kepel
- integration versus cultural diversity?
- retaining cultural identities
- socio-economic status
- legal status and protection
DISCUSSION
Wednesday afternoon
III. Assessment of each countries’ policies
- similarities and differences at a local and national level
introduced by M. Abdellah Boussouf and Professor Alec Hargreaves
- the European context
- where do we go from here?
introduced by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown and M. Azzedine Guellouz
DISCUSSION
17.30 Concluding remarks by the Chairmen
18.00 Close
9
Apendix II
French participants
M. Gilles Andreani
Directeur du Centre d’Analyse et de
Prévision, Ministère des Affaires
Etrangères
Mlle. Sylvie Blumenkrantz
Attachée de direction de la section
française du Conseil franco-britannique
Mme Alima Boumedienne-Thiery
Conseillère municipale d’Argenteuil
M. Abdullah Boussouf
Recteur de la Mosquée de Strasbourg
M. Alain Boyer
Secrétaire général de la Préfecture du Puy
de Dôme
M. Jean-Pierre Delalande
Député du Val d’Oise
M. Franck Fregosi
Chargé de recherche au CNRS,
Laboratoire ‘Société, droit, religion en
Europe’
M. Azzedine Guellouz
Ambassadeur honoraire de Tunisie
M. Jacques Guyard
Député-Maire d’Evry
M. Pierre Joxe (Chairman)
Premier Président de la Cour des Comptes
M. Gilles Kepel
Directeur de recherche au CERI
M. Pierre Lafrance
Ambassadeur de France
M. Jean-Marie Le Breton
Directeur de la Section française du
Conseil franco-britannique
M. Rémy Leveau
Directeur de recherche, CERI
M. Didier Motchane
Chargé de mission auprès du cabinet du
Ministère de l’Intérieur
M. Anis Nacrour
Premier Secrétaire à l’Ambassade de
France à Londres
M. Olivier Roy
Directeur de recherche au CNRS
M. Sadek Sellam
Professeur à l’Université de Lille
Mme Valérie Tranchant
Secrétaire de direction de la Section
française du Conseil franco-britannique
M. Jacques Viot
Président de la Section française du
Conseil franco-britannique
M. Raoul Weexsteen
Rapporteur à la Cour des Comptes
Observer:
Mme Lucie de Myttenaere
Ambassadeur au Ministère belge des
Affaires étrangères en charge des questions
islamiques
M. Vincent Labouret
Vice-Président de la Section française du
Conseil franco-britannique
M. Yves Lacoste
Directeur de ‘Hérodote’
10
Appendix III
British participants
Rumman Ahmed
Senior Advisor for Community
Relations
EPIC Centre
Professor Tariq Modood
Professor of Sociology, Politics and
Public Policy
University of Bristol
Rushanara Ali
Assistant to Oona King MP
Sir Peter Petrie
Chairman, Franco-British Council
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
IPPR
Dr Yunas Samad
Department of Social and Economic
Studies
University of Bradford
Zaki Badawi
Principal, The Muslim College
Sherard Cowper-Coles
Political Counsellor, The British
Embassy, Paris
Professor Alec Hargreaves
Professor of French and Francophone
Studies,
Loughborough University
Christian Tyler
Financial Times
Dr Paul Weller
University of Derby
Mohammed Yusuf
Police Constable
Greater Manchester
Police
Michael Head CVO (Chairman)
Vice-Chairman, ECRI
Dr Daniele Joly
Director, Centre for Research into
Ethnic Relations
University of Warwick
Ann Kenrick
Secretary-General, Franco-British
Council
Ruth Kitching
Assistant, Franco-British Council
Dr Philip Lewis
Interfaith Adviser to the Bishop of
Bradford
Mr Joel Miller
Home Office Research Unit
11
12