Military Police Complaints Commission
FYNES PUBLIC INTEREST HEARINGS
held pursuant to section 250.38(1) of the National Defence
Act, in the matter of file 2011-004
LES AUDIENCES D'INTÉRÊT PUBLIQUE SUR FYNES
tenues en vertu du paragraphe 250.38(1) de la Loi sur la
défense nationale pour le dossier 2011-004
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
held at 270 Albert St., Ottawa, Ontario
on Thursday, April 5, 2012
jeudi, le 5 avril 2012
VOLUME 6
BEFORE:
Mr. Glenn Stannard
Chairperson
Ms. Raymonde Cléroux
Registrar
APPEARANCES:
Mr. Mark Freiman
Ms. Dana Cernacek
Commission counsel
Ms. Elizabeth Richards
For Sgt Jon Bigelow, MWO Ross Tourout,
Ms. Korinda McLaine
LCol Gilles Sansterre, WO Blair Hart, PO 2 Eric McLaughlin,
Sgt David Mitchell, Sgt Matthew Alan Ritco, Maj Daniel Dandurand,
Sgt Scott Shannon, LCol Brian Frei, LCol (ret’d) William H. Garrick,
WO (ret’d) Sean Der Bonneteau, CWO (ret’d) Barry Watson
Col (ret’d) Michel W. Drapeau
Mr. Joshua Juneau
For Mr. Shaun Fynes
and Mrs. Sheila Fynes
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(ii)
INDEX
PAGE
SWORN: MAJOR LUBINIECKI
Examination In-Chief by Mr. Freiman
Cross-Examination by Colonel Drapeau
Cross-Examination by Ms. Mclaine
Re-Examination by Mr. Freiman
Re Cross-Examination by Colonel Drapeau
2
2
190
215
229
235
(iii)
LIST OF EXHIBITS
NO.
DESCRIPTION
PAGE
P-17
Witness index for Major Lubiniecki.
1
P-18
Major Lubiniecki's notes expanded.
1
1
1
2
3
Ottawa, Ontario
--- Upon resuming on Thursday, April 5, 2012,
at 9:35 a.m.
4
MS. CERNACEK:
5
THE CHAIRPERSON:
6
MS. CERNACEK:
7
the MPCC team.
8
today.
9
10
Good morning.
Dana Cernacek for
We will be hearing Major Lubiniecki
We have two exhibits to offer.
The witness index for Major Lubiniecki.
11
12
Good morning.
THE REGISTRAR:
That will be
Exhibit P-17.
13
EXHIBIT NO. P-17:
14
index for Major Lubiniecki.
15
MS. CERNACEK:
Witness
And an exhibit that
16
we received yesterday, Major Lubiniecki's notes
17
expanded.
18
19
THE REGISTRAR:
That will be
Exhibit P-18.
20
EXHIBIT NO. P-18:
21
Lubiniecki's notes expanded.
22
23
MS. CERNACEK:
Thank you, that
will be all.
24
25
Major
THE CHAIRPERSON:
All parties have
copies, I am assuming.
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MS. McLAINE:
Yes, we do.
2
COLONEL DRAPEAU:
3
THE REGISTRAR:
4
THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Freiman.
5
MR. FREIMAN:
6
As my colleague said, the next
Yes, they do.
Thank you.
7
witness is Major Mark Lubiniecki.
8
SWORN:
MAJOR LUBINIECKI
9
THE CHAIRPERSON:
10
11
THE WITNESS:
Good morning.
Good morning, sir.
EXAMINATION IN-CHIEF BY MR. FREIMAN:
12
13
We do.
Q.
Good morning, Major
Lubiniecki.
14
Let me just preface this with an
15
anticipatory apology.
In our documents, you appear
16
under your former rank of captain, and I suspect
17
that I may lapse into it.
18
the time of the incidents we are going to be
19
discussing today, you have been promoted and are
20
now a major in the Canadian Forces.
I understand that since
21
A.
Yes, sir.
22
Q.
Major, could you please start
23
by giving us a little bit of background about
24
yourself, your education and your career in the
25
army up to this day?
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A.
Yes, I joined in 1995,
2
attended the military college in both Saint-Jean,
3
Quebec, and Kingston, Ontario, graduating with a
4
history degree.
5
took command of a tank troop at that time, and
6
served with the tanks for a few years before being
7
moved into a reconnaissance squadron, and then
8
shortly after that, deploying overseas to
9
Afghanistan in the Kabul region.
10
Posted to the regiment in 2000 and
Upon redeployment, filled out
11
various small jobs within the other regiments, and
12
then again in 2006/2007, deployed to Afghanistan
13
with the tanks to Kandahar.
14
deployed as the adjutant of the regiment, 2007 into
15
2008, and then posted to the Canadian Manoeuvre
16
Training Centre in Wainwright as a trainer for the
17
deploying forces to Afghanistan as well as a
18
company commander for the armed force trainers at
19
that location.
Following that, I was
20
In 2010, I was posted back to the
21
regiment as a squadron commander for Reconnaissance
22
squadron, and currently just finishing off my term
23
as the squadron commander in the next three months.
24
Q.
Thank you.
25
Now, major, I understand that your
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first encounter with Stuart Langridge, I believe he
2
was a corporal already at that time, was on an
3
overseas mission; am I correct about that?
4
A.
Yes, we may have had some
5
interaction previous to that.
We were in different
6
squadrons.
7
and I was with the tanks.
8
it's a fairly small organization, about 600
9
soldiers, so during regimental activities,
He was in recce squadron at the time
So within the regiment,
10
regimental sports, the parades and exercises, I may
11
have crossed paths with him.
12
familiar face, but prior to us deploying to
13
Afghanistan, there was no real interaction.
14
Q.
Definitely he was a
And just for those in the
15
room who aren't familiar with military jargon,
16
recce is the reconnaissance squadron; is that
17
correct?
18
A.
Yes, sir.
19
Q.
So can you briefly tell us
20
about your experiences and your observations with
21
respect to Corporal Langridge while you were in
22
Afghanistan?
23
A.
24
I joined the reconnaissance
25
squadron late.
Yes, sir.
I was originally tasked as liaison
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officer for the squadron.
2
brigade reconnaissance element working for the
3
German and the Dutch in Afghanistan.
4
addition to the team, joining the squadron about a
5
month prior to deployment.
6
We were a multinational
I was a late
Once we arrived in the theatre, I
7
changed positions from the liaison officer to the
8
battle captain of the squadron, and then at that
9
time, I would have had some interaction with
10
Stuart.
11
His name had always come up as
12
being a strong performer within his troop, second
13
troop of the squadron.
14
disciplinary or administrative action that I was
15
made aware of at that time.
16
been if he had been selected to deploy on the tour
17
for that deployment.
18
There had been no
Nor would there have
As the battle captain, I was
19
responsible for about 160 soldiers in the squadron,
20
sort of being the second-in-command for the
21
squadron commander, so my interaction with each and
22
every soldier on the ground was somewhat limited.
23
Stuart was not in my direct chain of command;
24
however, I did know him from the interaction with
25
the guys overseas and through reports from his
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troop warrant and troop leader.
2
Q.
So do I understand that when
3
you returned from Afghanistan, you returned and
4
would have been in the same position vis-à-vis
5
Stuart upon your return?
6
A.
Following the deployment, we
7
had approximately a month, a little bit more, of
8
post-deployment leave.
9
son was born, so I had taken a month or two of
Following that, my first
10
parental leave, which almost tied right into the
11
posting season, which is sort of the June time
12
frame.
13
reconnaissance squadron at that time, into one of
14
the tank squadrons again.
At which time I was moved out of the
15
Q.
And before we get into your
16
experiences and contacts with Corporal Langridge
17
post-Afghanistan, let me just ask you in general,
18
based on your experiences in Afghanistan, is it
19
possible for you to come to a view as to whether or
20
not a person could have suffered a trauma capable
21
of generating post-traumatic stress syndrome in
22
Afghanistan during that tour?
23
24
25
A.
That's, you know, completely
outside of my specialty or my ability to speak on.
I would have to leave that to the medical
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professionals.
What I can say is that I truly
2
believe that whether you are in Afghanistan or in
3
Canada, everybody is exposed to things in life that
4
affect them differently.
5
equate it to a bucket, you know, filling it with
6
drops of water every time that you deal with a
7
situation.
8
depends on how many drops of water he placed into
9
that bucket.
You know, it's, I could
And everybody's bucket is different, it
There are firemen that deal with this
10
or paramedics that deal with things on a daily
11
basis, you know, with what we dealt with in
12
Afghanistan in Kabul, I think it was different than
13
what is being dealt with in Afghanistan in
14
Kandahar, but at the same time, I am clearly not
15
qualified of making an assessment on what would
16
affect an individual or how he was diagnosed.
17
Q.
Thank you.
18
So let's bring this back to
19
Edmonton, 2007.
20
adjutant; can you tell me what the role -- well,
21
what was the date when you became adjutant?
22
At some point, you became the
A.
It would have been June of
23
that year, end of June.
That's the typical time
24
where people change positions within the regiment
25
or within the army, just prior to the posting
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season.
2
Q.
So let's talk a bit about
3
what an adjutant is and what an adjutant does; what
4
is the role of an adjutant in the Canadian Forces?
5
A.
Primarily, you are
6
responsible to the CO for the administration and
7
discipline of the regiment, an advisor, one of the
8
advisors to the CO on policy administration and
9
really a bit of a lever puller and emergency
10
contact, sort of the first person that's notified
11
in a lot of cases, and then from that point,
12
contacts the appropriate authorities or responsible
13
agencies to become involved in different matters.
14
15
Q.
And so what is your role with
respect to discipline?
16
A.
It would be the review of
17
disciplinary files, the review of files for
18
soldiers being charged by a delegated officer or by
19
the commanding officer, maintaining a tracker of
20
soldiers that have been charged within the regiment
21
and the punishments and sentences awarded to them,
22
and then very similar for the administration as
23
well.
24
25
Q.
And did you have any role as
adjutant with respect to the integration of
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soldiers with health issues into the life of the
2
regiment?
3
A.
Yes, that was, I would say,
4
probably a smaller part for the adjutant.
In a lot
5
of cases, the regimental sergeant major and
6
regimental second-in-command took on that
7
responsibility, but I was one of the direct links
8
between the medical community and the respective
9
individual's chain of command for notifying and
10
implementing some of the policies or guidelines for
11
soldiers who are returning to work.
12
Q.
Just before we go on to
13
another issue, can you assist us by differentiating
14
between the role of the adjutant and the role of
15
the regimental sergeant major?
16
A.
The regimental sergeant major
17
is the senior soldier within the regiment, so he
18
has progressed through the ranks from a private or
19
a trooper, all the way up through to the position
20
of chief warrant officer or regimental sergeant
21
major.
22
So there is one within the whole regiment.
He is the CO's, commanding officer's, right-hand
23
man, primarily responsible for the career
24
progression and career development of the soldiers,
25
career management postings, and overall welfare of
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the soldiers.
2
Q.
Now, in your role as
3
adjutant, I imagine very close to the beginning of
4
your role, you came to an -- or a file on Corporal
5
Stuart Langridge would have come to your attention;
6
am I correct?
7
8
A.
I am not sure which file you
Q.
With respect to a safety
are referring to.
9
10
screening result that would have been reported
11
about Corporal Langridge.
12
A.
Yes, there was safety
13
sensitive drug testing that occurred in the end of
14
May of '07.
15
directed by the chief of the army, the commander of
16
the army, for any soldier deploying to an
17
operational theatre, specifically Afghanistan at
18
that time, that they would undergo a safety
19
sensitive drug test based on the fact that they
20
were deploying to a country that was so ridden with
21
drugs, as well as the requirements of a soldier to
22
operate in a combat theatre.
This is typical standard procedures as
23
24
Q.
So if you can look with me at
Tab 11, I think.
25
Can you explain what this document
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1
is?
If you don't recognize it, we can do the
2
chronology somewhat differently.
3
A.
It just looks like, I haven't
4
seen this document or nor did I create this one.
5
It just looks like a synopsis of the events that
6
had occurred from shortly after the time of testing
7
until the time of suicide with regards to the drug
8
process.
9
Q.
Okay, well, maybe we should
10
just, then, take the steps one by one with the
11
actual primary documents.
12
If you turn to Tab 13, you will
13
notice a prohibited drug use or drug offence
14
notification; can you tell me what this is and what
15
happened with it?
16
A.
Yes, this is standard form
17
that gets completed once the message comes back
18
that there is a positive result for drug testing.
19
Q.
Yes.
20
A.
So after the initial drug
21
test, the sample gets sent off where it's reviewed,
22
the results are sent to DMCA, Director of Military
23
Careers Administration.
24
titled DMCARM.
25
message is generated from DMCA and they notify the
At that time, it was
If it's a positive result, a
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unit that the subject member had tested positive
2
for whatever the illicit or prohibited drug was.
3
Q.
When they are notifying the
4
unit, does that mean they notified you or the
5
adjutant, or would they notify someone else?
6
A.
The message would come in
7
through our orderly room, be picked up by our chief
8
clerk, and then pushed to myself.
9
Q.
Okay, now, if we look at Tab
10
13 again for a second, you will notice on the
11
second page, commanding officer's recommendation.
12
Now, the first page just says that
13
there was a positive drug test, "specific details
14
to be provided", but we don't see any specific
15
details here.
16
officer's recommendation, and it says:
We do see on page 2, the commanding
17
"Retention in the CF with
18
C&P."[as read]
19
Can you explain what that means?
20
A.
Yes, when the policy came out
21
that we would test soldiers for safety sensitive
22
drug testing prior to deploying overseas, it became
23
common practice that if a soldier did test
24
positive, that they would be given or afforded the
25
opportunity for rehabilitation.
And that would
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occur over a 12-month period where they could seek
2
medical treatment and then be tested randomly for
3
the next 12 months during that period of counseling
4
and probation.
5
subsequent test during the 12 months, then it would
6
move from counseling and probation to a
7
recommendation for release from the CF.
At any time if they failed a
8
Q.
Now, the other box that could
9
be checked was one that would apply to release from
10
the Canadian Forces; was that a realistic option on
11
a first offence?
12
A.
I guess it's always an
13
option.
Like I said, the common practice at that
14
time was initial use was a 12-month counseling and
15
probation period for a safety sensitive test.
16
Q.
So maybe we should talk a
17
little bit about what the common practice was and
18
the steps in that practice and where we might find
19
out a little more about that.
20
You have a notification. The next
21
document that I see is at Tab 24, which is a notice
22
of intent to issue counseling and probation.
23
this is dated the 21st of June, signed by the
24
commanding officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Demers.
25
then some day subsequent, there is a line 5 that
And
And
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deals with Corporal Langridge's response.
2
3
Can you tell me what this is all
about?
4
A.
This is just a follow-up
5
document to the initial one.
There is a series of
6
documents as part of the DAODs, the file number in
7
the top right corner of the box, 4059 King-3 Alpha,
8
and this is 3 Delta.
9
process.
So it's just further into the
This is just the commanding officer
10
informing the member that it's the commanding
11
officer's intent to recommend counseling or
12
probation vice the release from the armed forces.
13
Now, based on the fact that it is
14
a drug offence, this falls outside of the
15
commanding officer's powers to issue counseling and
16
probation, so this form would be sent to Ottawa
17
where the Director of Military Careers
18
Administration would be the final approving
19
authority for the issuing or placement of the
20
member on counseling or probation.
21
22
Q.
Now, what about line 5, the
member's response?
23
A.
At this time, you know, he
24
had the opportunity to submit any representation as
25
to why he felt that he should not be placed on
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counseling and probation.
2
Q.
So before we go on to that,
3
would you have had any role with respect to the
4
notification of Corporal Langridge about his
5
positive test result or any discussions about the
6
implications or about his view of the charge?
7
A.
Yes.
As the adjutant, I
8
retained all of the files through the entire
9
process until the member was placed on counseling
10
or probation.
At that time, I turned the file over
11
to the respective squadron administration officer
12
or squadron second-in-command where the member
13
belonged, and then at that point, I left it up to
14
the squadron to determine the random drug testing
15
dates, conduct the monthly interviews and execute
16
the tests.
17
So, yes, once I received the
18
message saying that he had tested positive for
19
cocaine, I was the one that sat him down,
20
interviewed him, informed him, and then went
21
through all of these documents with him through the
22
process.
23
Q.
Okay, now, do you have any
24
notes or recollections with respect to your
25
interview with Corporal Langridge the first time
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that he was confronted with positive drug test?
2
A.
I don't have any specific
3
notes, you know, my recollection is just denial.
4
Not overly bothered by it, but, you know, just 'I
5
deny use', something as simple as that.
6
7
Q.
of that meeting would have been?
8
9
Would you know what the date
A.
date.
I don't remember the exact
We had received the results on the 8th of
10
June stating that he had tested positive for
11
cocaine.
12
recollection, within the next few days that he
13
would have been brought up into my office and
14
informed.
15
squadron preparing to deploy overseas, and he would
16
have been removed immediately from that squadron,
17
ceased the preparations for deployment and replaced
18
by another soldier that was capable of deploying.
So it would have been, to the best of my
And I say that because he was in a
19
So we wouldn't delay the process,
20
we would have tried to expedite that as quickly as
21
possible.
22
Q.
Now, we are at a point where
23
Corporal Langridge is denying use. Notwithstanding
24
that denial, as I understand it, he is removed from
25
his deployable squadron to a non-deployable
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squadron; is that right?
2
A.
Yes.
3
Q.
And also notwithstanding the
4
denial, he is asked to attend a drug treatment or a
5
-- a drug -- a secondary substance intervention
6
workshop, and for your reference, it's the notice
7
at Tab 12.
8
9
A.
Part of the process is once a
member tests positive for illicit drugs, there is
10
the notice of intent to issue C&P, there is the
11
opportunity for the soldier to provide
12
representation.
13
by the commanding officer ordering the soldier to
14
report to the medical community on base, be it the
15
base addictions counselor or one of the military
16
doctors, where he conducts an interview.
17
There is a form that's filled out
So at that point in time, I
18
believe that's where this memo would have come
19
from.
20
for it or if it was Mr. Perkins here that had
21
ordered him to attend.
22
of that process.
I am not sure if the member had volunteered
23
Q.
I am not -- I wasn't a part
Okay, and I just note that
24
the date of the memo is the 13th of June, which
25
would have predated the formal notification but,
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obviously, there was informal notification before
2
that?
3
We just saw the formal
4
notification was the 21st of June but, as I say,
5
there must have been an informal notification
6
earlier?
7
A.
I would imagine.
The form
8
that was dated on the 21st, that was for the issue
9
of counseling and probation, it wasn't a
10
notification at that point.
11
Q.
Okay, now, we know that, from
12
the form, that Corporal Langridge expressed an
13
intention to make representations. Now, as near as
14
I can tell, nothing happened until, look at Tab 25,
15
31st of August, '07, and here we have
16
representation from Corporal Langridge:
17
"1) I believe I have not
18
taken or done cocaine, to my
19
knowledge, and the test given
20
to me was a false positive;
21
2) During the test in
22
question, I was, and am
23
still, taking numerous
24
medications as directed by an
25
MO, medical officer, that may
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have affected the test.
2
"a) I was not asked by any of
3
the staff at the test for a
4
list of medications I was
5
taking; b) as for Step 5 on
6
the drug test form, I was not
7
contacted by an MRO to
8
discuss the medication I was
9
taking at the time and have
10
not been given a chance for a
11
retest."[as read]
12
Do you have any knowledge or
13
belief as to what took so long to enter these
14
representations?
15
A.
Yes, it's the member's
16
responsibility to provide the representation.
So
17
the -- we notify the member of his rights to
18
provide information.
19
responsibility to go to the base pharmacy and get a
20
list of prescription medication that he had been
21
on, it's his responsibility to go see any doctors
22
that may have prescribed medications for a surgery,
23
it's his responsibility to compile a list of other
24
vitamins, supplements, et cetera, et cetera, that
25
would be taken into consideration or submitted for
It's the member's
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evidence.
2
The fact that this is dated the
3
31st of August, there was a considerable amount of
4
incidents that occurred between the 21st of June
5
when the forms were signed off.
6
was an attempted suicide.
7
Royal Alex Hospital following that suicide attempt.
8
He was reported back to the care and delivery unit
9
on base and was assigned sick leave for anywhere
On the 25th, there
He spent time in the
10
from 14 to 21-plus days, where he wasn't reporting
11
into work.
12
as well that he would have been entitled to take.
13
So a series of events that took
And then there was summer block leave
14
place between that time prevented him from or
15
delayed his submission of this document.
16
Q.
17
nothing's happening?
18
A.
So in the meanwhile,
No.
The file resides in
19
Ottawa and the member is briefed that from the
20
point of notification of the positive test result,
21
that the member has two choices, and one will be an
22
expedited procedure.
23
use, signs disclosure waiver, signs the, all the
24
documents and owns up to it, the process could take
25
30 to 45 days, start to finish, before he is placed
If a member admits to drug
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on counseling and probation and starts that
2
rehabilitation process for 12 months.
3
Members that choose to deny use,
4
delay submissions for representation, request
5
additional testing of the samples, with the number
6
of samples that, and tests that were ongoing in
7
Ottawa, there was -- it wasn't uncommon for this to
8
drag out to four to six months before the member
9
would be placed on counseling and probation, and
10
then start his 12-month period.
11
12
Q.
some more.
13
14
Let's look at the chronology
Tab 26, and we will look at it
with Tab 27.
15
Tab 26 is an unsigned memorandum
16
that is headed "Waiver of Representation
17
Disclosure", and it has a statement, not signed,
18
that the person chooses not to submit any written
19
representation and that he chooses to waive his
20
rights to receive disclosure of his administrative
21
review prior to a final decision being made.
22
Is this a form letter or a form
23
that was prepared by the military, or was this
24
prepared because there was an anticipation that
25
Corporal Langridge was going to admit drug use and
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waive the right of representation?
2
A.
This is a bit of a form
3
letter.
I was dealing with between 10 to 20 files
4
at the time, so as part of my file process, I would
5
have, you know, sort of the different steps drafted
6
so that when I saw members, you know, and I sat and
7
talked with them, it would be an easy change to the
8
file, print and sign.
9
he didn't offer this.
10
Q.
This one was not signed, so
Now, instead, Tab 27, we have
11
a different form.
And again, is this -- it looks
12
to me as though this is simply a form, a
13
pre-prepared form to which you plug in the soldiers
14
particulars?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Now, first of all, would
17
this, would October 7 -- or, is it October 7 or
18
October of 2007?
19
A.
Of 2007.
20
Q.
Okay.
I see the date down
21
there is October 17th.
Now, am I to understand
22
that there would have been a meeting between you
23
and Corporal Langridge on the 17th of October to
24
discuss this form, or would it simply have been
25
handed in on the 17th of October?
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A.
Based on the fact our two
2
signatures are there, I would say that we met on
3
the 17th of October.
4
Q.
Do you have any recollection
A.
Nothing stands out. You know,
5
of that meeting?
6
7
other than, once again, he was denying, denying
8
involvement.
9
Q.
So on this form, he denies
10
involvement and asked to be corresponded with in
11
English.
12
Now, on the earlier form, and let
13
me just turn it up again before you, I think it's
14
25, there is handwriting in the right-hand side:
15
"Denies use.
16
C&P due to retests."[as read]
17
18
Not placed on
Is that your writing, or is that
somebody doing the file review?
19
A.
Yeah, this is not my writing.
20
Q.
Okay, so let me just be sure
21
that I understand the steps.
22
So far, we have seen a notice.
We
23
have seen a response by way of denial. We have seen
24
a gap, we saw the notice in June, denial the end of
25
August.
Then October we see a second denial.
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Although we have already seen, at Tab 25, written
2
representations.
3
So I am having a little bit of
4
difficulty understanding what the purpose of the
5
form at Tab 27 might be when you already have a
6
denial at the end of August and a written
7
representation.
8
9
A.
Part of the process is
correspondence, English or French, the member has
10
the right to choose, so that's why that's included
11
on the second form.
12
The written representation that
13
the member made in August, that would have been
14
submitted to DMCA as well.
15
their files, they require specific documents to be
16
included.
17
However, I think for
So if the written representation,
18
while it did say he denied use, it wasn't the
19
official document that they required to be
20
completed and put on their file.
21
Q.
And so now, from the 13th of
22
June, which looks to be the date of the actual
23
notification, through the 21st of June, the
24
official notification, through August, the written
25
representations, through October, the filling out
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of the form, time has stopped on the process; am I
2
right?
3
disciplinary process with respect to Corporal
4
Langridge, and that also means nothing is really
5
happening with respect to any counseling aspect as
6
well as the probation aspect; is that correct?
Nothing is happening by way of the
7
A.
8
process with this.
9
safety sensitive.
10
There is no disciplinary
Soldiers that test positive are
We don't proceed with
disciplinary charges for that.
11
We remove the disciplinary side
12
and we focus on the administrative side with
13
remedial measures, that being the counseling and
14
probation.
15
Q.
Does that mean there are no
16
remedial measures in place because there still is
17
no admission?
18
A.
There is no admission, but
19
the process hasn't been followed all the way
20
through.
21
Now, I couldn't tell you how many
22
files Ottawa was dealing with at this time. There
23
was a significant backlog of files with them, and
24
the back-and-forth correspondence between DMCA and
25
the respective units was taking a considerable
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amount of time.
2
Q.
Well, let's look, then, at
3
Tab 33, which is yet another form.
This one is
4
dated 14 January '08, and it records:
5
"In accordance with Reference
6
A, Corporal Langridge is
7
requesting that a secondary
8
test be conducted by an
9
independent lab to confirm
10
the status of his sample.
He
11
has requested that Kasper
12
Dynacare in Edmonton,
13
Alberta, conduct the test.
14
He was briefed on the
15
process, the potential
16
financial cost and the
17
outcomes, be that test
18
positive or negative.
19
understands and wishes to
20
proceed with an independent
21
test.
22
signed this document on 14
23
January of '08.
24
staff have any further
25
questions, please contact the
He
He was briefed and
Should your
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1
undersigned."[as read]
2
3
Signed by you and by Corporal
Langridge.
4
And just by way of background, the
5
previous tab, Tab 32, is a communication dealing
6
with the analysis by a laboratory of the original
7
sample.
8
difficult only because it's got a peculiar format,
9
it goes over the charges, the representations, and
And if I read this difficult document --
10
states that an analysis by the lab failed to
11
identify any drugs that Corporal Langridge might
12
have been taking, prescription drugs, that would
13
have interfered with the integrity of the sample
14
and would have yielded a false positive, so it's
15
confirming the positive result; is that correct?
16
A.
Yes.
The regiment doesn't
17
have the freedom of action to process the paperwork
18
or the documents as fast as we would like.
19
DMCA being the approving and the directing
20
authority on this, we submit our documents to them,
21
and then I would have to wait for a message like
22
this to be returned to me before I would be able to
23
take further action.
24
25
With
This Tab 32 gives me the authority
to sit with the member, inform him that it's still
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a positive test result, as you have indicated, none
2
of the prescription medication that he was on would
3
give out the positive result for cocaine, and at
4
this time, he had the option of proceeding forward
5
with the request for the independent lab test of
6
the original sample.
7
So this is dated on the 4th of
8
January, he was at Edgewood at this time.
When he
9
returned from Edgewood on the 11th, I met with him
10
on the 14th and had him sign the form that would
11
authorize the independent lab secondary test of the
12
original result.
13
So I understand that it may look
14
like there is significant time lapses between some
15
of these events.
16
regiment and myself did everything that we could as
17
timely as possible; however, we were faced with
18
other constraints, being the backlog at DMCA and
19
some of the timelines that were imposed upon us.
I can assure you that the
20
Q.
Thank you.
21
Just for clarity also, there may
22
be some confusion about the concept of a retest
23
versus secondary screening.
24
understand it and please correct me if I am wrong,
25
is not that the member is asked to provide a second
The process, as I
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sample, the process is, there is an original
2
sample, it's tested, if there is a protest such as
3
the one we saw by Corporal Langridge, it is
4
reanalyzed in light of the representations, and if
5
the member is still dissatisfied, it can be sent to
6
an independent lab to confirm the results, but it's
7
always the same original sample?
8
9
A.
sample.
Yes.
They take the original
So the first time the sample is tested,
10
they use half the sample for the testing process.
11
The other half of the sample gets retained on file,
12
or wherever they store it, in the event that there
13
is a request for a secondary test.
14
The secondary test, the member has
15
the right to choose where that sample is tested at,
16
an independent lab of his choice, there is two or
17
three options.
18
that is once again retested.
19
ensure that the member hasn't abstained from drugs
20
for a period of time and provided a new sample that
21
would be clean or use some type of cleaning or
22
flushing drugs that would flush the system.
23
it's always the same original sample that gets
24
tested.
25
But, yes, it is the original sample
Q.
And that's just to
So
And this, then, would have
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been sent back, sent off to the appropriate
2
authorities, but it wouldn't be sent directly by
3
you to the Kasper Dynacare Lab; would it?
4
A.
No, this is, the sample is
5
retained in Ottawa or wherever the main testing lab
6
is, and from there, once they receive the
7
notification that the original sample's second
8
portion needs to be sent to an independent lab,
9
DMCA would coordinate that through the agency and
10
it would be shipped independently.
11
12
Q.
And as of 15 March 2008, that
secondary testing had not been done?
13
A.
I am not sure where the
14
process was with regards to the testing.
15
remember sending an e-mail to Captain Bill Shipley
16
saying that the member was deceased and there was,
17
you know, we could close the file at this point.
18
Q.
I do
And not to belabour the
19
point, that means that from sometime in May 2007
20
when the sample was obtained, through to June when
21
the member was informed of the negative test, the
22
various administrative processes that were in place
23
resulted in basically nothing happening with
24
respect to counseling and probation and moving that
25
process forward until the time of Corporal
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Langridge's death?
2
A.
Yes.
3
Q.
Okay.
Now, you told us that
4
on the first time that you -- when you met with
5
Corporal Langridge to discuss the preliminary
6
results, he didn't seem too fussed about the whole
7
process, he simply denied it?
8
9
A.
Yeah, he wasn't overly
emotional or vocal in his denial of use.
He just
10
said, 'I didn't, I didn't use it', and he was
11
pretty carefree about it.
12
Q.
Okay, and he was sent off as
13
part of the administrative process to a seminar, a
14
workshop, on drug, I guess drug abuse or drug
15
safety?
16
A.
He was sent off as part of
17
the medical process, not the administrative
18
process.
19
Q.
Okay, and that -- well, can
20
you help me with that?
21
negative result -- sorry, the positive result would
22
have been sent to the medical folks and they would
23
then be asked to do whatever was appropriate
24
medically?
25
A.
Does that mean that the
They would be informed of the
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positive results, and then, as I'd indicated
2
previously, part of the other process was a medical
3
referral form signed by the commanding officer with
4
the details of the positive result/drug testing
5
message so that they could access the information,
6
as well as the specifics of the type of test, the
7
result.
8
base addictions counselor where they would have an
9
opportunity to interview him and then implement any
And then he was pushed to the MO or the
10
type of rehabilitation, training or courses that
11
they saw fit.
12
Q.
We see the signature on the
13
invitation form -- or, yeah, the signature is that
14
of Mr. Perkins, who was a base addictions
15
counselor.
16
as I understand.
In fact, he was the head of the unit,
17
Can you help me, are the base
18
addiction counselors part of the military stream,
19
are they part of the medical stream, where do they
20
fit?
21
A.
They fall in under the
22
medical community.
I have no direct control or
23
influence over them.
24
through the medical chain.
25
military leader is privy to the information
They report direct report
I am not, nor any other
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discussed between the clients and the base
2
addictions counselor.
3
Q.
I was going to ask you that.
4
What sort of communication do you get from the base
5
addictions counselor with respect to any soldier
6
who may be in some difficulties with addictions?
7
A.
Fairly limited.
In this
8
case, you saw the notification saying that he was
9
going to be sent on a course for a period of a
10
week.
We would be notified of medical leave or
11
medical treatment, the member would be away from.
12
For example, there is a note or a memo signed by
13
Dr. Rajoo on the 4th of January stating that the
14
member is going to attend Edgewood from the 4th of
15
January to the 28th of February.
16
that until the day or two following, so it was more
17
of an info to myself vice action or approval.
18
medical chain doesn't seek our approval or our
19
authority to send members on this type of
20
treatment.
21
Q.
I didn't receive
The
And what about just
22
information, do I understand that the addictions
23
counselors do not provide you with any information
24
as to progress or issues with respect to a
25
particular member?
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2
A.
No, I was never briefed by
the base addictions counselor.
3
Q.
Okay, now, the 25th of June
4
was the date for the commencement of this multi-day
5
course.
6
on the 25th of June, and that was a suicide
7
attempt.
Now, we know that something else happened
8
A.
Yes.
9
Q.
On the first day of this
10
program.
11
Can you tell us what you knew
12
about this?
13
what channels, and what was your role, if any, in
14
the events that unfolded on the 25th of June and
15
thereafter?
16
What information did you get, through
A.
On the 25th of June, as the
17
adjutant, I would have been informed based on my
18
role or my position that there was an attempted
19
suicide or a suspected attempted suicide to take
20
place.
21
received an e-mail or a text message from Corporal
22
Langridge with words to the effect that 'take care
23
of my wife or fiancee, you will know what this
24
means in the future'.
It was Corporal Rhomer and Hillier who had
25
You know, they took it as an
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indication that he was going to attempt suicide,
2
they contacted their chain of command which I
3
believe was Captain Chris Hunt, possibly the duty
4
staff, and then I would have been informed by one
5
of those three, the two soldiers, the duty staff or
6
Captain Hunt.
7
As soon as I was made aware, I
8
informed the commanding officer and then would have
9
started making calls to attempt to assist Corporal
10
Rhomer and Hillier in locating Corporal Langridge,
11
as well as attempting to source outside agencies
12
such as Edmonton police services or anybody else
13
that might be able to track him down.
14
Corporal Hillier and Rhomer
15
believed that they knew where he might be.
16
was a group of soldiers that spent quite a bit of
17
time doing off-road activities in their jeeps and
18
trucks in some old fields, so they travelled to
19
that location and found the jeep, Corporal
20
Langridge inside, intoxicated, with several bottles
21
of alcohol, I believe, and the vehicle set up with
22
hoses running inside for carbon monoxide poisoning.
23
24
There
Q.
Now, this information, how
A.
It would have been by phone.
did it reach you?
25
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Q.
There was, as I understand
2
it, an investigation as was prescribed in the regs
3
when there is a suicide or suicide attempt, and,
4
Tab 21 -- sorry, that's the incident report.
5
Tab 23 is a memorandum signed by
6
Lieutenant-Colonel Demers that summarizes what he
7
takes away, I believe, from the report, the summary
8
investigation report.
9
And I just want to go over a
10
couple of things in the, in Lieutenant-Colonel
11
Demers' letter.
12
He opens by saying that Corporal
13
Langridge attempted to commit suicide on the 25th
14
of June 2007.
15
that, therefore, there was no bodily injury.
16
then Lieutenant-Colonel Demers says that the
17
purpose of the letter is to comment on his intended
18
course of action with respect to this event as it
19
was interpreted through the summary investigation.
20
There was intervention by his peers,
And
Paragraph 2 is Lieutenant-Colonel
21
Demers' summary of the challenges facing Corporal
22
Langridge that may have generated the suicide
23
attempt.
And what he writes is:
24
"Corporal Langridge has
25
struggled with events that
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culminated in his feeling of
2
being overwhelmed and unable
3
to deal with the following:
4
"a), issues reintegrating and
5
overcoming events from
6
Operation ATHENA ROTO 2 in
7
Afghanistan; b), the death of
8
his father in 2006; c), the
9
notification of his mother's
10
diagnosis with cancer; d),
11
medical return to unit from
12
PLQ Module 6 in March 2007
13
due to anxiety attacks; and
14
e), his recent positive test
15
for controlled substances as
16
part of the safety sensitive
17
drug test."[as read]
18
Were you aware of all of these
19
events or stressors at the time?
20
A.
I would have been made aware
21
by the findings of the summary investigation
22
conducted by Captain Hunt.
23
Q.
And would it be fair to say,
24
in your view, that one of the issues of
25
reintegration from Operation ATHENA ROTO 2 would
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have been adjusting to non-deployable from
2
deployable status?
3
4
A.
I am not sure I understand
Q.
Well, as a result of the
the question.
5
6
negative drug screen, he is no longer eligible to
7
be deployed.
8
A.
That's right.
9
Q.
So he was moved from the
10
recce squadron into headquarter squadron; correct?
11
A.
No, it would have been, he
12
was moved out of a tank squadron into a headquarter
13
squadron.
14
Q.
Okay, sorry.
15
Now, let's look at Number 3
16
because here is where Lieutenant-Colonel Demers
17
sets out what he plans to do and what he intends to
18
be done for Corporal Langridge:
19
"3)
The health, welfare and
20
rehabilitation of Corporal
21
Langridge remains my primary
22
concern.
23
member is receiving continued
24
treatment from the medical
25
community for his substance
Currently, the
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abuse issues as well as
2
counseling for suicide
3
prevention.
4
examining suitable employment
5
for the member that will
6
build his self-esteem,
7
strengthen bond with peers by
8
employing him within the
9
regiment and providing him
The regiment is
10
with a sense of belonging and
11
purpose."[as read]
12
Just stopping there, was it any
13
part of your duties to oversee the process of
14
finding a suitable employment such as that
15
described by Lieutenant-Colonel Demers?
16
A.
Not specifically.
That would
17
have been more the responsibility of the regimental
18
sergeant major as part of career management and the
19
welfare of the soldiers.
20
the CO, myself and probably the squadron commander
21
of Headquarter Squadron, Major Jared, to look at
22
suitable employment within that squadron.
23
Q.
He would have worked with
And do you have any idea of
24
what employment was found for Corporal Langridge
25
that would fulfil these goals?
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A.
I don't remember specific
2
tasks or a specific troop within Headquarter
3
Squadron that he was placed into.
4
intent was to bring him back into the organization
5
and make him feel part of the team, not turn our
6
back, not try to ignore that this had happened, but
7
try to find ways that the regiment, you know, and
8
his peers would be able to treat him as before and
9
not turn him into the black sheep of the family or
10
I know the
the regiment.
11
Q.
We know, I believe, that the
12
first employment offered to Corporal Langridge was
13
working in the kit shop.
14
From your understanding of that
15
employment, does that fit within the category of
16
employment that builds self-esteem and strengthens
17
bonds with peers?
18
A.
We gave him an opportunity to
19
interact with his peers and other soldiers on a
20
daily basis, as well it would have been one of the
21
few jobs within the regiment that would allow him
22
to work half days as well as being extremely
23
flexible in the attendance of his required military
24
-- sorry, medical appointments and addictions
25
counseling, et cetera.
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I think the balance was trying to
2
find a job that allowed him to attend all of the
3
appointments and rehabilitation that he needed
4
while, at the same time, like I said, making sure
5
that he felt like he was still part of the
6
regiment.
7
Q.
While we are talking, then,
8
about attending appointments, medical appointments
9
and others, was there any role for the unit or the
10
squadron in overseeing that attendance?
11
A.
No.
It's a soldier's
12
responsibility to report for work on time, or duty.
13
Now, be that, you know, physical training, timing
14
in the morning, be it stables for vehicle and
15
equipment maintenance or be it dental appointment,
16
it's a soldier's responsibility to know his timings
17
and to attend those timings.
18
The regiment did set measures in
19
place to facilitate and assist Corporal Langridge
20
in the attendance of these meetings.
21
Q.
What were they?
22
A.
That's primarily outlined
23
later in the area in March when he was taken into
24
the regiment and provided a place to live.
25
Q.
We are talking about the
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measures that were put into place following his
2
discharge from the Alberta Hospital in March?
3
A.
Yes.
4
Q.
Okay.
Up to that, are you
5
aware of any other measures that were similarly put
6
into place?
7
A.
No specific measures to
8
transport him to and from.
It would have been
9
specifically just affording him the time away from
10
work in order to meet his other timing and
11
obligations.
12
Q.
And the second point in
13
paragraph 3 talks about Corporal Langridge having
14
his file reviewed by DMCARM and that it is
15
anticipated that he'll be placed on counseling and
16
probation for a period of 12 months for the
17
positive results, and we've seen already the
18
history of that process.
19
So let's look at paragraph 4:
20
"I have directed my adjutant
21
to examine the standard
22
operating procedures involved
23
in the reaction to, and
24
reporting of, attempted
25
suicides in order to ensure
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confidentiality of the issue
2
while ensuring the proper
3
authorities are immediately
4
made aware of the
5
situation."[as read]
6
7
Do you know what this is a
reference to?
8
9
It mentions you.
A.
Yeah, I believe it was
streamlining the process, coming up with a bit of
10
an org chart or a line diagram, you know, if A
11
happens, contact B, who will inform C.
12
"I have also been informed
13
that there was talk of a
14
suicide watch between
15
individuals within the
16
regiments and that the member
17
was made aware that the term
18
'suicide watch' had been
19
used."[as read]
20
At no time was the term "suicide
21
watch" used with me, or did I use that term with
22
anyone else.
23
commanding officer is referring to here.
24
25
So I am not sure if that's what the
Q.
Well, he seems to be
referring to his measures designed to ensure
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confidentiality while, at the same time, ensuring
2
that those who know or who need to know are
3
informed.
At least that's my reading.
4
A.
Sure, I am very confident
5
that the leadership of the unit respected the
6
privacy of the individual and understood the
7
severity or the significance of an event like this.
8
9
What I can't comment on is his
peers that found him, the two other corporals, and
10
their actions in discussing this with other peers
11
and how that spread.
12
And I believe that no matter how
13
many times you tell individuals that, you know,
14
this is a sensitive subject, there will always be,
15
you know, the squads talk or, you know,
16
individuals, and I would argue, at the lower level
17
that would have no issues discussing this with
18
others.
19
Q.
We have seen in one of the
20
hospital charts Corporal Langridge reporting that
21
he felt humiliated because everyone knew that he
22
had tried to commit suicide; were you aware of that
23
sort of talk throughout the unit or the squadron?
24
25
A.
No, I am not aware of that,
that he had made those comments.
At the same time,
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I can understand the feeling or the comment that
2
you would be embarrassed.
3
Conversely, though, I would say
4
that we are a small organization, 600 soldiers,
5
it's a small base, and there is little that goes on
6
in the military that people don't know about.
7
for an individual to truly believe that an illicit
8
drug use positive result, attempted suicide, or
9
something along that nature wouldn't eventually be
10
common knowledge, I think, is kind of a little bit
11
false as well.
12
Q.
So
Are you aware of any changes
13
to standard operating procedures in terms of either
14
reporting or maintaining confidentiality that
15
occurred at this time?
16
A.
I can't specifically remember
17
any specific measures that were put in place.
I
18
know that around this time, the serious death and
19
injury -- a serious injury and death notification
20
handbook that the regiment used was being updated,
21
so there might have been information placed in
22
there.
23
believe that the individuals were spoken to by the
24
RSM as well, with regards to the confidentiality.
And while I can't confirm, I would like to
25
Q.
Okay, but from your point of
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view, you don't recall doing anything or being
2
aware of anything either way?
3
4
Not at this time, I can't
Q.
Finally and perhaps not
recall.
5
6
A.
importantly, paragraph 5, states:
7
"Lieutenant-Colonel Demers'
8
intention to discretely
9
recognize Corporal Rhomer and
10
Corporal Hillier through the
11
presentation of a commanding
12
officer's coin for their
13
actions in response to this
14
situation."[as read]
15
16
Are you aware of whether this ever
happened?
17
A.
I don't recall, no.
18
MR. FREIMAN:
I am not sure
19
whether you would like to take a morning break for
20
about ten minutes.
21
about an hour.
22
go, for sure.
We have been going at it for
We have the rest of the morning to
23
THE CHAIRPERSON:
24
until 10 to 11.
25
--- Upon recess at 10:37 a.m.
We will break
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--- Upon resuming at 10:52 a.m.
2
COLONEL DRAPEAU:
Mr. Chair, if I
3
may.
During the pause, as we are in the middle of
4
the examination in-chief, I took notice that
5
lawyers representing, in fact, the respondents and
6
their teams have had a meeting with the witness.
7
have actually no idea what was discussed and
8
whether or not it is within the rules, but I am
9
concerned with the appearance of, possibility that
10
the appearance may be that the witness has been
11
counseled, coached or whatever it is.
12
ask that such a thing, in fact, does not happen to
13
protect the appearance, if nothing else, of
14
impartiality and adherence to the rules as it is,
15
in fact, a public inquiry, more important than
16
anything else.
I
So I would
17
THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms. Richards.
18
MS. RICHARDS:
Well, not
19
surprisingly, I take great offence to the assertion
20
by Mr. Drapeau that anything improper happened.
21
Myself and my team are well aware of our
22
professional obligations.
23
the witness.
24
before this Commission are at liberty to speak with
25
whoever they want.
There is no property in
Any of the witnesses who appear
I can assure you that we are
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well aware of our professional obligations, and
2
they have not been breached.
3
4
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Any comment, Mr.
Freiman?
5
So noted.
Thank you, Mr. Drapeau.
6
BY MR. FREIMAN:
7
Q.
Major Lubiniecki, before the
8
break, we were talking about employment issues.
9
And my colleague has reminded me that, in fact,
10
Corporal Langridge's employment was modified
11
following the first suicide attempt, and he was
12
moved from the kit shop to working for the stables
13
NCO, Master-Corporal Fitzpatrick.
14
what sort of employment that would have been?
15
A.
Can you tell me
The stables NCO is
16
responsible for the overall building, you know.
17
They report to the regimental sergeant major and
18
receive tasks from him but, overall, they are
19
responsible for the oversight and guidance to the
20
duty staff, ensuring that the other duty staff on
21
duty understand their roles and responsibilities.
22
And beyond that, I can't provide really much more
23
information.
24
the regimental sergeant major than the adjutant or
25
the officers.
It's more of a task that's handled by
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Q.
Well, since both the
2
regimental sergeant major and Master-Corporal
3
Fitzpatrick will be here in the coming weeks, we
4
will ask them.
5
I would like to continue now with
6
the way that Corporal Langridge's issues were dealt
7
with and some of the observations made.
8
9
I would like to direct your
attention to Tab 16, please.
10
I understand this is an e-mail
11
chain that was cut and pasted by you -- or, sorry,
12
by Major Jared.
13
tell us what the occasion for this document might
14
have been and what it actually is?
15
16
A.
I'd have to read through it
Q.
Please, please take your
A.
It looks like there is a
before I can.
17
18
It's dated 18 March 2009. Can you
time.
19
20
couple of documents here.
The last few pages, I
21
think, refer to what we had been dealing with this
22
morning, response from DMCARM or DMCA saying that
23
they are buried under a mountain of files for
24
sometime, and they are starting at the oldest cases
25
and looking to proceed with a process of those
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first for the safety sensitive drug testing.
2
As you --
3
THE CHAIRPERSON:
4
Excuse me. What
is DMCARM?
5
THE WITNESS:
Director of Military
6
Careers Administration.
7
authority for, specifically to this case, the
8
safety sensitive drug test results and issuing of
9
counseling probation and other administrative
10
actions.
11
12
THE CHAIRPERSON:
So director of
military careers and?
13
14
So, they are the chief
THE WITNESS:
Careers
administration.
15
THE CHAIRPERSON:
16
BY MR. FREIMAN:
17
Q.
Okay. Thank you.
So before we start talking
18
about content and the three areas I would like to
19
discuss with you, in general, this document is said
20
to be a collection of all relevant e-mails. This
21
looks like a cut and paste of those e-mails. Do you
22
know why Major Jared was putting these together and
23
sending them to you?
24
A.
25
I would say for, most likely
just for tracking purposes or their retention of
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valid or important documents here.
2
Q.
Okay.
So let's look at the,
3
first, the entry you mentioned.
4
last page, page 287.
5
indicates that there was considerable backlog with
6
the screenings and with the processing of drug,
7
illicit drug involvement cases.
8
It's on the second
And you said that this
And it's urging that the oldest
9
cases be dealt with first, and it was shortly after
10
this that you met with Corporal Langridge; correct?
11
12
Well, this is dated 20th of
Q.
20th of September.
September.
13
14
A.
You met
with him the second week of October?
15
A.
Right.
That would have been
16
for some of the follow-on, follow-on documents,
17
yes.
18
Q.
Okay.
Now, the next issue
19
I'd like to ask you about comes a little earlier,
20
on page 284.
21
which would have been the day after the suicide
22
attempt while Corporal Langridge was still in
23
hospital.
24
Major Patton.
25
that would mean that he would be in charge of
And this is dated the 26th of June,
And you are writing to various, or to
First Ambulance, I take it that's --
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military matters -- sorry, medical matters?
2
A.
He was the -- I believe at
3
that time he was the base surgeon and Dr. Hannah
4
was the acting base surgeon.
5
deployed or was not able to fulfil the base surgeon
6
duties at the time, and that is why Dr. Hannah
7
stepped up and took over.
8
9
10
Q.
Major Patton had been
So this is what you say to
Major Patton, and it's in the second paragraph, "I
have one final request":
11
"Referencing Corporal
12
Langridge, I have one final
13
request.
14
acknowledged the fact that
15
regiment is responsible for
16
pick up of member once
17
released from hospital."[as
18
read]
19
Can you tell me what this is all
20
about?
21
for pick up from hospital?
What is the issue here about responsibility
22
23
I take it that it's
A.
here.
Sorry, I might be confused
What page are we on?
24
Q.
284.
25
THE CHAIRPERSON:
The top e-mail.
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THE WITNESS:
The regiment here
2
was looking at the situation.
3
attempted suicide.
4
hospital.
5
be released from the hospital without anybody
6
knowing.
7
hospital to contact the unit nor the civilian
8
hospital to contact the military chain -- the
9
military medical staff in a timely manner to inform
10
The member had just
He had been admitted into the
The last thing we wanted was for him to
There is no obligation for the civilian
them that the individual was being released.
11
So our concern was he could be
12
released from the hospital, you know, walk home,
13
walk back to his jeep, get a taxi and then go back
14
and attempt to commit suicide again immediately
15
without any of the, his chain of command or the
16
medical community being aware, A, that he had even
17
been released or where his next step was in where
18
he was going.
19
So we were attempting to take
20
positive control of him and then make sure that he
21
was able to get to the care delivery unit on base
22
immediately where he could be seen by medical,
23
military medical staff, have their follow-on
24
assessment or have them provide via the chain of
25
command with employment limitations, sick leave, et
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cetera, so that we at least knew where he was and
2
that hopefully he was safe.
3
Q.
Okay.
And are you aware of
4
whether, first of all, the issue of notification,
5
not only obviously in this case but for similar
6
cases, was ever dealt with?
7
agreement, protocol, understanding put into place
8
that would enable the military to better be aware
9
of whether a member was in hospital and, in
Was there ever any
10
circumstances where safety was involved, was being
11
discharged from the hospital?
12
A.
No.
There was -- you know,
13
obviously, the civilian medical community owes us
14
nothing nor are they responsive to our requests for
15
them to provide us that information.
16
So what we did as a regiment was
17
we provided two soldiers initially to remain at the
18
hospital.
19
stay outside of his room or in the emergency area
20
with him while he was being admitted and remain
21
that initial point of contact, direct line of
22
communication to myself.
23
any updates on results from the doctor informing
24
them length of stay or release dates, they were
25
able to contact me immediately so that the
He had two friends that volunteered to
So as soon as they had
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regiment, once again, had that information at hand.
2
Q.
I apologize because I don't
3
have the document here, and I can get it at the
4
break if we need it, but in one of the records, the
5
recruitment of the two members of the platoon --
6
or, sorry, of the regiment for, to watch -- or to
7
be with Corporal Langridge is referred to as a
8
potential suicide watch.
9
that there was never such a thing.
10
I know you have told us
Do you have any understanding of
11
where that concept might have slipped in in
12
describing what the members were being asked to do?
13
A.
No.
And, you know, what I am
14
referring to is two soldiers.
15
found him at the site of the attempted suicide were
16
the ones that volunteered to remain at the
17
hospital.
18
a suicide watch.
19
of civilian medical authorities, so I can guarantee
20
you that that was not referred to as a suicide
21
watch.
I think it would be absurd to call that
22
23
You know, he was under the care
I am not aware of the term
"suicide watch" being used by someone else.
24
25
His friends that
Q.
Okay.
What about, now -- you
were talking about the concern to maintain safety
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of a member who is being discharged from hospital
2
and to ensure that he not be left alone but be
3
directed to proper medical attention. Was there
4
ever any protocol enacted?
5
the hospital might cooperate with, was there any
6
internal protocol enacted to ensure that that sort
7
of safety was maintained?
8
9
A.
Quite aside from what
I think we treated this on a
case-by-case situation and, fortunately, I never
10
had to deal with another situation or event similar
11
to this during the remaining time as the adjutant
12
of the regiment, but I am confident that if we had
13
another soldier that was committed to a hospital
14
for a potential suicide, the regiment would provide
15
soldiers, most likely friends or be a direct link
16
in with the family, if the family was available to
17
be with the member where we would be able to obtain
18
information through them.
19
would be continuing to work with the primary care
20
nurses, or in this case the brigade surgeon, and
21
having them hopefully leverage their relations with
22
the respective hospital in retaining information
23
and providing it to us in a timely manner.
24
25
Q.
minute.
And the second part
We will explore that in a
Before we do that, I wonder if you can
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turn to page 286.
2
Now, this entire page -- maybe we
3
need to start at 287 to set the scene, the original
4
message.
5
You write to a Lisa, and I am not
6
sure who Lisa is, oh, primary care nurse at the
7
CDU, exactly what we were talking about, and you
8
tell her:
9
"Please keep us up to speed
10
regarding Corporal Langridge
11
and whether he is on sick
12
leave or can report back to
13
work so that his chain of
14
command can remain aware.
15
"I believe that he is due
16
back on Wednesday of this
17
week and may receive
18
additional sick leave on
19
Wednesday, Thursday for a
20
period of time yet to be
21
determined."[as read]
22
So that's the original message.
23
And my reading of it, you can correct me if I am
24
wrong, is that at this point you are looking to
25
gain some understanding of the availability for
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employment of Corporal Langridge, and you wanted to
2
coordinate that with any entitlement to sick leave
3
that may have been given?
4
A.
That would probably be at the
5
bottom of my priorities at that time.
6
was having positive information and knowledge of
7
where he was going to be.
My priority
8
If I was told that he was being
9
placed on sick leave, then the regiment knew that
10
he was under the care and under the guidance of the
11
medical community.
12
work on Thursday but he was not on sick leave, he
13
would be away without leave.
14
previous attempted suicide, that would cause a lot
15
of concern for the regiment and probably put us
16
into a new course of action of trying to once again
17
locate him.
18
If he failed to show up for
And based on the
So for the regiment and myself, it
19
was attempting to have all the information possible
20
from medical community on what their plan was for
21
him, not so much, you know, 'when can I get this
22
soldier back to be put to work?'.
23
24
Q.
So the response that you get
from nurse Lisa Tuck is:
25
"He has -- "
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And this is at the bottom of 286:
2
"He has an appointment
3
Wednesday, 11:15.
4
am uncertain, I would suspect
5
he may get another week of
6
sick leave, but the base
7
surgeon has indicated he does
8
not want this member to have
9
copious amounts of sick
Although I
10
leave. Will advise Wednesday
11
of status."[as read]
12
Now, did you have any
13
understanding of the thinking that goes behind the
14
statement where the base surgeon is quoted as not
15
wanting Corporal Langridge to have "copious amounts
16
of sick leave"?
17
A.
No.
That's, you would have
18
to speak to the base surgeon for his medical
19
reasons on that.
20
further you remove an individual from his peers or
21
from his unit, the farther back you push him into
22
the chain of care, the less likely that he is to
23
ever return to that unit.
24
documented in World War I, World War II, et cetera.
25
So I am not sure if that's, you know, the chain of
I do know that in combat the
And that's been
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thought that the doctor had on this.
2
Q.
Okay.
Well, I am going to
3
ask you the question because it appears in your
4
chronology, which is Exhibit 18.
5
we are all on the same page, this is a chronology
6
that you compiled in anticipation, first, of your
7
interview with the Military Police Complaints
8
Commission.
9
have supplemented it based on your own sifting
And just so that
And then following that interview, you
10
through the documents, and this is the most current
11
aide-memoire, as it were, for you from your
12
recollection of your involvement in various matters
13
and of important dates; is that about it?
14
A.
Yes, yes.
15
Q.
Okay.
So can we please look
16
at the first page.
The date of this e-mail is the
17
3rd of July, 2007.
And let's look at the
18
chronology.
19
June; time in hospital, 25 to 27 June; 28 June,
20
member reports to CDUC and is issued seven days'
21
sick leave.
22
which is the very date of this e-mail, which would
23
be the day that his sick leave was to expire.
24
then immediately thereafter, he gets another week
25
of sick leave.
We have the attempted suicide, 25
And that takes him to the 3rd of July,
And
And then in July and August, he's
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gone again for two to three weeks.
2
And then July to December, the
3
second page, you have July through December '07,
4
"sick leave, return to work program, half days,
5
reduced workweek", et cetera.
6
Okay.
So we have seen a couple of
7
sick leaves.
8
leave.
9
times, a "sick leave, return to work program, half
10
And then we see from July, from about these
days, reduced workweek".
11
12
We have a block annual leave, summer
Can you help us to understand what
that means?
13
A.
I wasn't able to find
14
specific documentation or access to his personnel
15
files or medical files, obviously, so that's a bit
16
of a generalization or general statement for me
17
just in my timeline to piece this together.
18
know that he was attending regular treatments.
19
far as I can recollect, he was on half days for a
20
period of that, but this is a bit of a
21
generalization or a -- without having access to the
22
pers file in the creation of this or to the medical
23
documents, I can't tell you exactly how much sick
24
leave or other time away from the workplace that he
25
had spent.
I do
As
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Q.
My understanding is that he
2
was on half days at least until the 26th of
3
November of 2007.
4
A.
Okay.
5
THE CHAIRPERSON:
6
on from the document, this document, was it -- this
7
was prepared by yourself?
8
THE WITNESS:
9
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Before we move
Yes, sir.
For? Requested
10
by somebody or is this just for your own
11
information?
12
THE WITNESS:
13
myself, sir, in preparation for my initial MPCC
14
counsel hearing in Edmonton.
15
16
This was prepared by
THE CHAIRPERSON:
As a reference
document?
17
THE WITNESS:
Just for myself to
18
try to have one document that I could refer to
19
throughout rather than having to sift through
20
several others.
21
THE CHAIRPERSON:
22
BY MR. FREIMAN:
23
Q.
Okay. Thank you.
Now, we stopped our
24
discussion with the -- of actual events with a
25
discussion of Corporal Langridge's initial suicide
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attempt, which we've seen really could have been
2
two suicide attempts.
3
In October, we know that Corporal
4
Langridge attempted suicide a second or perhaps a
5
third time?
6
A.
Sorry, what was the date?
7
Q.
October 29th.
8
A.
No, I am not aware of that.
9
Q.
Well, let me fill you in on
10
some of the details because I am a little troubled
11
by the fact that you would not have been informed
12
of this event.
13
As I understand it, much as you
14
were describing, the unit was vigilant about
15
Corporal Langridge's comings and goings and, as a
16
result of a failed, or missing a scheduled medical
17
appointment, the unit dispatched Sergeant Murrin to
18
find Corporal Langridge's whereabouts.
19
him and, as a result of finding him, he was
20
escorted to the Royal Alberta Hospital, where he
21
was certified and spent three days and was
22
subsequently dismissed into the custody of Master
23
Corporal Price.
24
25
She found
Now, you told us that you were
unaware of that, and I am just trying to understand
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how such a breakdown in communication could have
2
occurred.
3
concerned in the June incident that the chain of
4
command be kept apprised and that you be kept
5
apprised, that appropriate arrangements be made to
6
integrate the soldier back into his unit and to
7
ensure proper healthcare.
8
incident that fits precisely into that category,
9
and you remain entirely unaware of this.
Because we have just seen you're very
10
A.
And, here, we have an
Perhaps I may be unaware of
11
this, and I don't -- I don't remember the events as
12
you describe.
13
Now, I would argue that contrary
14
to what you are saying, the regiment dispatched
15
Sergeant Murrin to find this member who was absent
16
from his place of duty, which would demonstrate our
17
care and concern for that member.
18
Q.
Yes.
19
A.
And the fact that, you know,
20
he was taken to and admitted to a hospital would,
21
once again, show that the health and welfare of
22
this soldier was at the forefront of the regiment.
23
While I may not have personally been involved in
24
that process or at that specific period of time, I
25
would argue that with 600 soldiers in the regiment
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and myself being on course or task or training
2
elsewhere, perhaps I was not in the office or the
3
area at that time, and somebody else would have
4
acted on my behalf or in my place.
5
what I am trying to say is just because myself, as
6
Major Lubiniecki, was not aware, I think that you
7
proved that the regiment was very concerned about
8
our members and did dispatch somebody when he was
9
not where he was supposed to be and did seek
10
But I guess
medical treatment for him.
11
Q.
Well, my concern is from this
12
narrative, with the fact that you, as being
13
ultimately responsible for administration, were
14
unaware of -- well, would you consider this to be
15
an important event that should be known to the
16
chain of command?
17
A.
18
Was there an attempted suicide at
19
It depends how we look at it.
this point?
20
Q.
That's what the --
21
A.
Well, I am asking -- I don't
22
know, so I am asking --
23
Q.
Well, the medical records
24
disclose that Corporal Langridge took an overdose
25
of certain medications.
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A.
We are not privy to the
2
medical records, so nobody would have, you know --
3
if Sergeant Murrin, you know, as not a medical
4
professional, would not be able to come back and
5
tell me that he had attempted an overdose or, you
6
know, if the hospital didn't contact me following.
7
In this situation, I may have looked at it as a
8
soldier that, you know, was once again -- or had
9
been AWOL and was once again checking in to a
10
military -- or medical establishment as he had done
11
several times in the past.
12
Q.
So if a soldier was AWOL,
13
should there have been some follow-up with respect
14
to that AWOL?
15
16
There could have been
Q.
Well, we know that there
charges.
17
18
A.
weren't.
The question is:
19
A.
Should there have been?
It's within the purview of
20
the chain of command to determine if charges are
21
warranted for that or if it's -- it would be more
22
detrimental to the member if he is charged vice,
23
you know, maybe take some time to understand or
24
assist the member in other ways.
25
Q.
I understand that, but my
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question is whether, if the chain of command was in
2
a position to even make that decision, shouldn't
3
that decision have gone up through you as being
4
ultimately responsible for disciplinary matters?
5
A.
No.
I review the, and can
6
provide some advice on the discipline, but like I
7
mentioned earlier, the respective squadron
8
commanders and certain majors, as delegated
9
officers, they have powers of punishment to lay
10
charges and to administer summary trials and
11
punishments and fines.
12
So not every charge do I see prior
13
to it being complete and then in cases I am
14
tracking the outcome of those vice the actual
15
providing authority to conduct.
16
Q.
I want to bring you back to
17
Lieutenant-Colonel Demers' letter following the
18
June suicide attempt where he is asking you to
19
review standard operating procedures to ensure
20
proper reporting while maintaining confidentiality,
21
and I am just wondering whether this event
22
demonstrates that such measures were put in place
23
or were not put in place.
24
25
Just so you know what the document
is that I placed before you just in case you want
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to review it, it is the medical record of that
2
admission.
3
it, should have seen it, had any right to see it.
4
It's Document 1293, pages 30 to 34, Collection F,
5
Volume 2.
I am not suggesting you would have seen
6
The only thing, I just wanted you
7
to look at, the page 3 of 4, where you look at the
8
plan, and the third paragraph says:
9
"We will assess him in the
10
morning when the side effects
11
of the Seroquel should have
12
worn off.
13
aware of his current stay in
14
hospital as per conversation
15
with Corporal Master Price.
16
From the military's
17
perspective, there are no
18
legal violations and no
19
arrests pending."[as read]
20
21
A.
is:
I guess what's unclear to me
Who delivered him to the hospital?
22
23
The military is
Q.
will...
Maybe the progress notes
Paramedics brought him to the hospital.
24
A.
Who contacted the paramedics?
25
Q.
My understanding is that the
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unit contacted the paramedics, Sergeant Murrin.
2
A.
Something doesn't seem right
3
about the form as I am looking at some of the
4
information here.
5
not that, you know, we are, in the military,
6
shutdown at four or five o'clock, but it doesn't
7
strike me as normal that Sergeant Murrin would be
8
at his place of residence at 2300 hours -- or,
9
sorry, I am reading the date wrong and the time
10
Being brought in at 12:24 p.m.,
wrong.
11
Q.
No.
It's the afternoon.
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
My understanding is it was a
14
missed appointment in the morning, and she was
15
dispatched to see what was going on.
16
A.
Like I explained, I haven't
17
seen this document nor was I aware of that incident
18
occurring.
19
Q.
Okay.
The next incident,
20
then, that I would like to discuss with you, well,
21
is Corporal Langridge's stay at Edgewood.
22
have told us that you weren't aware of it until the
23
6th of January, which would have been two days
24
after Corporal Langridge was actually dispatched.
25
Now, you
For your assistance, Tab 31 is the
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medical authorization that you discussed with us
2
earlier, wherein Dr. -- it looks like Dr. Rajoo,
3
who was his treating physician, his family
4
physician, informs the commanding officer of LdSH
5
Royal Canadian that on the date 31 December, that
6
Corporal Langridge will be absent for purposes of
7
attending medical treatment from January 4th to
8
February 27th, '08.
9
Where does this go?
What's
10
interesting is that it's stamped 20 December 2007,
11
even though it's dated 31 December of 2007.
12
13
A.
You would have to speak to
the medical authorities about the dating of it.
14
From the time we received it, you
15
know, we were on Christmas holidays until
16
approximately the 5th or 6th.
17
without a calendar.
18
would have seen this form.
19
top says "OC Headquarter Squadron Information".
20
Somebody asked him on the 7th of January, pushed to
21
him, so that he was aware that this soldier would
22
be absent from the place of work until the 27th of
23
February.
24
25
Q.
I don't remember
Upon my return to work, I
Okay.
And my Minute 2 at the
So, and I think that
there is nothing at all untoward about the
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chronology.
A soldier is given medical leave of
2
absence.
3
informed.
4
break, and you become aware of it the 6th of
5
January?
The medical folks inform who needs to be
It crosses your desk after the Christmas
6
A.
Yes.
7
Q.
Now, what was the next event
8
of which you were aware, with respect to this
9
particular event, Corporal Langridge being sent off
10
to Edgewood in British Columbia for a two-month
11
course of -- well, you are not told what he is gone
12
for, so did you know what he was going for?
13
A.
I could only assume it was
14
for the positive cocaine test results.
15
Q.
Okay.
So what was the next
16
event of which you became aware or which you
17
participated in?
18
A.
Sometime between the,
19
following the 11th of January, he checks himself
20
out of the treatment.
21
I call him into my office to have a conversation.
22
Q.
And on the 14th of January,
Well, my understanding is
23
that even before you called him in, that you had
24
some involvement on the 11th of January.
25
recall a nurse contacting you about the situation?
Do you
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A.
I may be -- I may have been
2
contacted to be told that he had left the facility
3
early.
4
Q.
Yes.
5
A.
Nothing's -- nothing comes to
Q.
Okay.
6
mind right now.
7
I have a document, and
8
I am going to ask my colleague to find it for me
9
because I can't find anything that may assist you.
10
If you look for a document that looks like this,
11
major.
This is Document 1128, Collection D, Volume
12
13, and it's part of Exhibit P-4.
13
14
And I will read this and ask you
if this helps your recollection:
15
"11 January 2008, 0800.
16
Perkins, base addictions
17
counselor, approached me,
18
writer -- "
19
Don
That's Charlene Ferdinand.
20
" -- on sick parade regarding
21
this member.
22
out of Edgewood Addictions
23
Treatment and refuses to come
24
into clinic today for
25
assessment.
Checked himself
Don Perkins
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concerned for his health
2
because he has attempted
3
suicide in the past and feels
4
he could be at risk again.
5
Has received numerous calls
6
from mother and girlfriend.
7
Called Adjutant LdSH(RC)
8
Captain Lubiniecki about
9
same.
And the treatment was
10
cancelled as of last night,
11
therefore, AWOL. Adjutant
12
unable to contact member
13
first attempt but at 10:30
14
was able to reach member.
15
Member stated he was stable
16
and contracted with Captain
17
Lubiniecki that he would not
18
harm himself this weekend.
19
disagree with the adjutant
20
and stated that he should be
21
brought in with MPs.
22
Adjutant doesn't feel that
23
would be necessary and would
24
discuss with Don Perkins
25
about same."[as read]
I
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2
Does that refresh your memory at
all, sir?
3
A.
No.
According to my notes, I
4
had this conversation with Corporal Langridge on
5
the 14th.
6
started to blend together, so I am not disagreeing
7
with what's written here. I just, you know, from
8
when I reviewed the documents and what I put
9
together, I had the 14th of January as when I had
It's been four years.
Some of this has
10
established contact with Corporal Langridge and sat
11
and talked with him.
12
Q.
Indeed, you did have a
13
conversation with Corporal Langridge, but Nurse
14
Ferdinand's note seems to imply that you had a
15
telephone conversation with him as a result of him,
16
technically at least, being AWOL on his release
17
from -- on his discharging himself from Edgewood
18
and his refusal to come in to the unit. And it
19
would appear that you were the one who contracted
20
with him for his safety, that he would -- he
21
contracted with you, sorry, that he would not harm
22
himself and, on that basis, you thought it was
23
unnecessary to dispatch MPs to bring him back to
24
the base?
25
A.
As I mentioned to you, it's,
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I see what's written here.
2
are saying.
I understand what you
It's just not clear to me.
3
Q.
4
So let's move forward in time to
5
the 14th of January where, according to chronology
6
and our records as well, you had a meeting with
7
Corporal Langridge.
8
the meeting?
9
10
A.
Okay.
That's fine.
Do you recall the reason for
I wanted to discuss with him
why he did check himself out of Edgewood.
11
Q.
Yes?
12
A.
And he had documents that he
13
had to sign.
14
DMCA authorizing the member to request a secondary
15
analysis of the original sample, so I needed him to
16
sign off on that document as well.
17
I had just received the message from
Q.
Okay.
So it was a
18
double-barrelled purpose.
One was to talk about
19
discharging himself from Edgewood, and the second
20
was to discuss his -- the ongoing saga of the
21
failed drug test and next steps?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
Okay.
24
Tell me what you
remember of that meeting.
25
A.
We dealt with the drug
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testing forms first, continued to DNU.
2
for a secondary analysis to be made, signed the
3
document, put it aside, and then we had a
4
conversation about where he was at in life.
5
He's asked
He told me that his time at
6
Edgewood, he didn't see himself fitting in with the
7
other people that were there.
8
same type of addictions problem that they had.
9
10
He didn't have the
Q.
What did you understand that
A.
The way he made it sound was
to mean?
11
12
these were people with serious issues of
13
dependency, and he made it sound like he was more
14
of a recreational user than actually dependent on
15
it.
16
The focus of the conversation was
17
on the way ahead for him.
18
bit of remorse for some of the decisions that he
19
had made in the past, talked about how he --
20
Q.
He expressed his -- a
Excuse me.
I would just like
21
to clarify.
22
some of the decisions he made in the past, do you
23
have any recollection of specific decisions that he
24
would have mentioned?
25
When you say he expressed remorse for
A.
Not specifics.
In,
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generally, I think he was referring to his decision
2
to stop being the soldier that he had been
3
previously.
4
individual that had served in Afghanistan and had
5
served his regiment for a considerable period of
6
time.
7
that he wanted to be a soldier again and wanted to
8
move past the troubles and the difficulties that he
9
was faced with in his life at this time.
I think that he was very clear in the fact
10
11
He was a reliable, honest, dependable
Q.
Okay.
Now, I would like to
ask you a couple of questions.
12
First, since you did know Corporal
13
Langridge in Afghanistan, did you notice the
14
difference in him in his behaviour from the time
15
you knew him in Afghanistan to the time you became
16
aware of him and had dealings with him in your role
17
as adjutant?
18
A.
I would say he was more
19
upbeat and positive, smiling, previously.
20
interacted with a large number of soldiers, you
21
know, and I would say generally got along well with
22
everyone.
23
He
Following my time as an adjutant,
24
my observations, and they were limited, I think
25
that he was more closed in on himself, interacted
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with less people, had, I think, a smaller group of
2
acquaintances that he spent the majority of his
3
time with.
4
smiling as I remembered him to be, and there was a
5
notable change in his personality.
I don't think he was as happy and
6
Q.
Okay.
Now, you have told us
7
that Corporal Langridge expressed remorse for some
8
of his, we call them life choices, that he was no
9
longer the soldier that he had been before. What
10
confidence did you have as to the genuineness of
11
the remorse, bearing in mind the fact that he was
12
submitting to you yet another form to contest the
13
accuracy of the drug test?
14
A.
I would like to think that
15
sometimes people need support.
Sometimes people
16
just need to know that there is somebody there that
17
believes in them and will be there through the
18
thick or the thin.
19
different breed of people, and we go through
20
different experiences that most other people don't
21
understand.
22
would understand what we do.
23
Excuse me.
24
Q.
Take your time.
25
A.
I grew up in a Catholic
And I think that soldiers are a
There is a few other professions that
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family, where my parents always said, 'Treat others
2
the way that you would like to be treated'.
3
think through all of this, this is what I did with
4
Corporal Langridge.
5
doubt when perhaps others didn't.
6
the person that was able to listen to him and maybe
7
help him out and, truly, I believe that maybe that
8
was all that was needed in this case, was for
9
somebody to believe in him that he was able to make
10
the change and somebody that, I think, you know, he
11
had some respect for some time for me.
12
say, sometimes I think that's all you need.
13
I
I gave him the benefit of the
I wanted to be
Now, I trusted him.
And, like I
I gave him
14
the opportunity to move back into recognizance
15
squadron out of headquarters squadron and prove, or
16
give him the opportunity to prove that, you know,
17
he was sincere and, you know, going to make the
18
effort to make some changes in his life.
19
didn't work out.
20
Q.
That
Let's talk about that just
21
for a moment.
Was the decision to move him to,
22
back to reconnoissance squadron, and I understand
23
it was not a deployable squadron because he had
24
just returned, but it was reconnoissance squadron,
25
was that a decision that you -- was it something
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that you had in mind before the meeting, or was it
2
something that came out of the meeting? Was it your
3
idea, his idea?
4
How did this come about?
A.
He had asked for a way where
5
he would be able to demonstrate to his peers that
6
he could earn their trust again, that he could work
7
alongside them, and they could have confidence in
8
him.
9
another squadron?'
He had asked, 'Is there a way of moving into
A reconnoissance squadron at
10
that time, like you mentioned, was not scheduled to
11
deploy, so it was a logical choice.
12
the fact that he had spent a considerable amount of
13
time in reconnoissance squadron in the past, I
14
thought it made sense.
15
Q.
And based on
So was there anything else
16
that was discussed in that meeting before we go to
17
the sequence of events that happened afterwards?
18
A.
I don't believe so.
19
Q.
Did you have an occasion to
20
discuss with him the wisdom of his continual denial
21
of the drug test?
22
A.
I think -- I don't have a
23
clear memory of that, but since my time as an
24
adjutant up until my time now as a squadron
25
commander, having dealt with several drug cases in
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between, it is something that I always do inform
2
the members of, is the process, the duration of
3
time.
4
the process takes based on at what point they admit
5
to use.
And it's really up to the member how long
6
So without specific recollection,
7
no, I don't remember discussing that, but it would
8
-- it wouldn't make sense that we would have had
9
that discussion at some point.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
forward.
12
new -- to recce squadron.
So then let's move
He was sent to a new position, sent to a
13
A.
What happened?
I was contacted by the
14
squadron commander, reconnoissance squadron, maybe
15
a week later or a week or two, saying that they
16
didn't feel like things were working.
17
motivated.
18
events.
He wasn't committed to working with
19
others.
It appeared that he wasn't interested in
20
fulfilling his end of the bargain of being a
21
productive soldier in that squadron.
He wasn't
He had no drive to participate in the
22
Q.
So what happened?
23
A.
We moved him back into the
24
headquarter squadron, and I believe that he went
25
back to working with Master Fitzpatrick at that
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time.
2
Q.
Do you know the date that he
3
returned to headquarters?
4
that anywhere.
Because I don't have
5
A.
No, I don't.
6
Q.
Okay.
Now, sometime in early
7
-- well, we know exactly when.
In early February,
8
Corporal Langridge was readmitted to the Royal
9
Alexandra Hospital.
Do you have any recollection
10
of that particular admission and what it was all
11
about?
12
A.
No.
I was just informed that
13
he was admitted for approximately three to four
14
days from the 1st to the 4th and then released
15
sometime on the 4th.
16
Q.
Well, I mean, just, in
17
fairness, I anticipate that Padre Hubbard will tell
18
us in the future, and only the hearing will be able
19
to confirm this, but I anticipate he will tell us
20
that he became aware of the fact that Corporal
21
Langridge had been admitted to Royal Alexandra
22
because of the suicide attempt and that he informed
23
both the medical chain of command and the military
24
chain of command and that you were one of three
25
individuals that he informed of the fact that
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Corporal Langridge had attempted suicide; does that
2
refresh your memory at all?
3
A.
If this was the -- if this
4
was the time that he spent in the hospital where he
5
attempted suicide within the hospital?
6
Q.
Yes.
7
A.
Then I was made aware that
8
there was an attempted suicide while he was in the
9
care of medical community.
If you're saying that
10
he was admitted because of an attempted suicide,
11
then, no, I was not aware of an attempted suicide
12
that led to his admission in the hospital.
13
14
Q.
You are right on both counts.
There was an attempted suicide that led to the
15
admission, and there was an attempt within the
16
hospital.
17
18
A.
I was aware of the second,
the attempt within.
19
Q.
Can you tell me about that?
20
A.
I was told by Padre Hubbard,
21
through some convincing -- he didn't want to, you
22
know, provide the information but, at the end, he
23
decided to share that while interned, a patient at
24
a hospital, Corporal Langridge, attempted suicide
25
possibly with the use of his hospital pants
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strings.
2
Once I was made aware of that
3
through the padre, I contacted the military medical
4
staff immediately and informed them and said, 'I
5
don't have all the information.
6
led to believe.
7
at the civilian hospital, perhaps you will be able
8
to obtain more information and act accordingly'.
9
This is what I am
If you could contact your partners
Q.
Okay.
And I just want to
10
bring you back to Lieutenant-Colonel Demers' letter
11
of June or July, I guess it was, where he was
12
concerned about -- sorry, I want to take you back
13
to your e-mail talking about the importance of
14
ensuring that a member is discharged into the
15
custody of the military and that he be brought back
16
for proper care with the CDU.
17
Are you aware of whether anything
18
was done along those lines by the military to
19
ensure the proper transfer from the Royal Alberta
20
Hospital to the CDU in light of the fact there was
21
a suicide attempt?
22
23
A.
released into the care of his common-law spouse.
24
25
I believe in this case he was
Q.
Yes.
Let me ask you, then:
Dealing with this subject, is there anything else
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that you were aware of or that you did in
2
connection with the events around this February
3
stay in the Royal Alberta -- in the Royal Alexandra
4
Hospital?
5
A.
I would have tried to attempt
6
to obtain more information from the medical
7
community, military, on was there a suicide
8
attempt, what could be done by the chain of command
9
to assist, and was met with resistance for any
10
information to be passed to the regiment.
11
For us, the primary concern was
12
his welfare.
13
common-law spouse, for me, that was as safe as
14
having him released to another soldier.
15
somebody that was going to be there that would be
16
able to watch over him.
17
So having him released to his
There was
I don't remember the time that he
18
was released on the 4th but, as of the 5th, he had
19
checked back into another hospital.
20
Q.
Yes.
Before we get to that
21
stay and what, if anything, the chain of command
22
was aware of in that connection, you mentioned
23
Corporal Langridge's common-law spouse. Were you in
24
contact with her, was she in contact with you
25
during any of these events?
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A.
No.
2
Q.
Now, as you said, at some
3
point, or we know what point.
4
some point".
5
I keep saying "at
On the day after his discharge
6
from the Royal Alexandra Hospital, Corporal
7
Langridge was admitted to the Alberta Hospital.
8
Now, you said that he admitted himself. Were you
9
aware that he was, in fact, under a 30-day medical
10
certificate?
11
A.
He contacted me by phone and
12
said that he was checking himself in to the
13
hospital for treatment and that this was something
14
that he was doing of his own admission.
15
Q.
Did he tell you what the
16
nature of the complaint was that caused him to
17
check himself in?
18
A.
No.
19
Q.
Did you ask?
20
A.
I am sure I would have asked,
Q.
Okay.
21
yes.
22
And he wasn't willing
23
to be forthcoming as to what was going on that led
24
him to check himself back in?
25
A.
He never specified as to what
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he was being checked in for.
2
Q.
Okay.
So once you were
3
informed of that fact, was there anything further
4
that you did in connection with his absence other
5
than to note, of course, that he was going to be
6
gone?
7
A.
I would have notified our
8
chain of command as well as, once again, the CDU,
9
the primary care nurse, and let them know that he
10
had checked himself in, in the event that they
11
could obtain more information as well so that they
12
could notify the base addictions counselor and
13
other individuals that he would have had scheduled
14
meeting with no doubt during that leave of absence.
15
Q.
During this period of time,
16
do you have any contacts with Corporal Langridge's
17
common-law spouse while he was in the hospital for,
18
the Alberta Hospital in March?
19
A.
Yes.
Rebecca had called.
20
She was concerned with the fact that he still had
21
access to drugs while he was in the hospital, that
22
he had spent up to two paycheques on drugs while
23
being a patient at the hospital.
24
that was now overdue.
25
for the jeep, which she was a co-signer for, were
There was rent
The payments on their lease
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overdue, and a large number of bills were going
2
unpaid because he was using the money from his bank
3
account while in the hospital vice paying for the
4
bills.
5
I think it was at this time as
6
well that she said she was having extremely
7
difficult time in dealing with him, the drugs, the
8
alcohol, the spending the money, the lack of
9
honesty and trust.
It was proving to be too much
10
for her at that time, and she needed a break from
11
him.
12
time, and I don't know the exact date, that his
13
mother had come down to Edmonton and had met with
14
the padre and Rebecca.
15
were being evicted from their condo or townhouse or
16
their residence because of default on payments or
17
if what the case was, but they were essentially
18
moving his furniture and effects and all of his
19
goods out, as was Rebecca, and the regiment had
20
offered to store all of his personal belongings at
21
the regiment so that he wouldn't have to put them
22
into storage and incur costs.
I think it's also at this -- during this
23
Q.
And I am not sure if they
Who made that decision to
24
allow him to store his personal effects at the
25
regiment?
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A.
At the end of the day, it
2
would have been the commanding officer who would
3
have given the final stamp of approval, but I
4
believe a lot of this was being coordinated through
5
Major Jared.
6
This is his squadron commander.
Q.
Okay.
All right.
Was there
7
anything that you were able to do or thought
8
appropriate to do with respect to the story that
9
Ms. Hamilton-Tree told you about Corporal Langridge
10
accessing drugs in the hospital, spending his
11
paycheque, getting into, it sounds like, financial
12
difficulties, not having a place to live?
13
A.
I would have informed my
14
chain of command of the conversation that we would
15
have had.
16
got nothing documented that would show that I had
17
spoken to the medical community and expressed some
18
concerns with regards to the potential for drugs
19
being purchased or used within treatment facility.
I can't recall at this time and I have
20
Q.
And can you tell me, what was
21
the nature of your conversations, if any, with Ms.
22
Hamilton-Tree about the nature of their
23
relationship, Stuart and Rebecca's relationship,
24
where it was and where it was going?
25
any such discussions?
Were there
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A.
Yes, we had a discussion at
2
that same time.
And like I had mentioned, she was
3
finding it extremely difficult to be living with
4
him at that time for the reasons that I had
5
mentioned:
6
money, the drugs, the alcohol.
7
she needed a break where she could move off, get
8
strong herself, and she wanted him to, you know,
9
get the treatment that he needed and then, you
the deceit, the lying, spending the
You know, she said
10
know, come back to her.
At the end of the
11
conversation, she mentioned that she still loved
12
him.
13
going through an extremely difficult period in
14
their life.
15
a lot less and walk away from their wives or their
16
wives walk away from them, and I have seen and
17
heard of others that have gone through a heck of a
18
lot more than this, and relationships have only
19
come back together or grow stronger, so I didn't
20
see anything that caused great alarm here.
21
an individual that was struggling with a situation
22
and, to me, you know, it made sense.
So my understanding of this was they were
23
I have seen other soldiers go through
I saw
I spoke to the padre, and he had
24
spoken to the mother at that same time.
From what
25
I got from the padre was the mother had told
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Corporal Langridge at that time that she was
2
leaving, she couldn't deal with him, with the drugs
3
or the alcohol as well.
4
hospital she had left.
5
It was when he was in the
Now, I don't see nor would I ever
6
believe that she stopped loving her son.
7
that both of these ladies were placed in a position
8
where they were faced with something that was
9
extremely difficult to deal with, and I don't know
10
if I would have reacted any differently if I was a
11
father or a brother or, you know, a wife or a
12
mother of this individual.
13
either one of them stopped loving their son.
14
believe that both of them needed some time to
15
really, of course what was going on, and come up
16
with a plan of how they were going to deal with
17
Stuart and support him in the future.
18
Q.
19
I think
So I don't believe
I
Did Stuart ever talk to you
about his relationship with Ms. Hamilton-Tree?
20
A.
We had a conversation upon
21
his release.
I am just trying to find the date
22
here.
23
talked in my office, and I had explained to him the
24
comments from Rebecca and the fact that she was
25
asking for a break from him.
Sometime after he had been released, we
She didn't want to
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have contact with him for a period of time where
2
she could do some soul-searching and where he could
3
get the treatment and the rehab that he wanted.
4
At that time, he said he fully
5
understood and he respected her decision to do
6
that.
7
belongings, mail and a few other items, that it was
8
agreed upon that they would switch back into each
9
other's possessions.
They had some of each other's personal
At the end of the
10
conversation, you know, he said he loved her enough
11
to respect her decision or her need at this point
12
in time to need a bit of a break or some time from
13
him.
14
Q.
Just placing this
15
conversation in time, I understand you are saying
16
it was after his release from the Alberta Hospital
17
or the earlier release or later release from the
18
Royal Alexandra?
19
A.
It would be post, I believe
20
it would be post 4 March, because that -- during
21
that stint at the Alberta Hospital, from the 5th of
22
February to the 4th of March, is when Rebecca had
23
spoken to me, so I wouldn't have spoken to him
24
until he had been released.
25
MR. FREIMAN:
All right. Now, is
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this a time we would like to break, sir?
2
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Yes.
3
take a break until one o'clock.
4
--- Upon luncheon recess at 12:01 p.m.
5
--- Upon resuming at 1:02 p.m.
We will
6
BY MR. FREIMAN:
7
Q.
Good afternoon, major.
8
A.
Good afternoon.
9
Q.
I just wanted to briefly
10
touch on one point before we get to the events of
11
March.
12
My understanding, we were
13
discussing some of the issues that you became aware
14
of with respect to Corporal Langridge and
15
especially his accommodations; do you know what
16
arrangements were made with the -- we talked about
17
arrangements with respect to his personal effects,
18
do you know what arrangements were made and by whom
19
with respect to accommodation?
20
A.
Upon his release from the
22
Q.
Yes.
23
A.
We received a call from the
21
hospital?
24
hospital saying that he was going to be released, I
25
believe, on the 4th of March.
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At that time he didn't have a
2
place to stay.
I am not sure if he had spoken to
3
any friends with regards to being able to crash at
4
their place for a period of time or not.
5
that he spoke to possibly one of the primary care
6
nurses at the military hospital, Charlene Ferdinand
7
perhaps, and we received a call from the unit
8
requesting some form of emergency accommodations be
9
secured for him for his release from the hospital.
10
I believe
So the regiment, the RSM at the
11
time, contacted Mr. Levesque, Master Warrants
12
Levesque, who was the base accommodations master
13
warrant officer.
14
rooms within the soldiers quarters that are set
15
aside as emergency rooms, and these could be used
16
for any number of reasons.
17
soldier's room floods or if there is damages in the
18
shacks, they can be moved into that room for
19
temporary housing.
20
without a place to live can be put into one of
21
these rooms for a period of time.
22
And, on base, there is several
You know, if a
Or in this case, a soldier
So the regiment spent the
23
afternoon coordinating the details for securing one
24
of these rooms for Corporal Langridge, and then
25
upon his release, was able to provide him with a
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key.
He checked into the room and was able to move
2
the remaining effects that he had from the
3
hospital, as well as any other effects that he
4
wanted, into that room.
5
Q.
Okay, now, we have heard some
6
suggestion that Corporal Langridge was, in fact,
7
sleeping in his jeep when he was discharged from
8
the hospital.
9
contradict that.
What you just told us seems to
10
Are you aware of any basis for a
11
story that Corporal Langridge was, for a period of
12
time, sleeping in his jeep?
13
A.
No.
I don't know the
14
document number, but there is a document that is
15
dated the 4th of March, the date that he was
16
released from the Alberta Hospital, that is from
17
Mr. Levesque, saying that Corporal Langridge has a
18
room and has cleared into the room.
19
be no requirement for him to sleep in his jeep.
20
Q.
So there would
Okay, so let's talk about
21
Corporal Langridge's release from the Alberta
22
Hospital.
23
Now, I understand, sir, that you
24
were away on leave in and around this period of
25
time.
Have you been able to establish from your
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own personal Day-Timer or notes the dates when you
2
were away?
3
A.
It was, I was away for
4
approximately a week, but that was following more
5
closer to the end of March.
6
Q.
Yes.
Well, I understood that
7
you were not -- so do I understand that you were
8
actually present at the beginning of March rather
9
than being on leave?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
Okay.
So we know that there
12
was some discussion back and forth between Corporal
13
Langridge and the unit about what would happen when
14
his period of certification at the hospital was
15
over.
16
discussions?
Were you a party to any of these
17
A.
I don't remember any specific
18
discussions with regards to what would happen to
19
him following his release from the hospital.
20
Q.
Well, let me ask it a
21
different way.
Were you aware that there had been
22
a request by Corporal Langridge to stay in hospital
23
after the period of certification until such time
24
as he could be checked into a rehabilitation
25
centre?
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A.
No.
2
Q.
So what was your involvement?
3
When did you enter the picture in terms of what
4
Corporal Langridge was to do, what arrangements
5
were to be put in place for him?
6
A.
I would have assisted with
7
the securing of a room for him with the RSM and Mr.
8
Levesque.
9
the 7th, there is some documents that outline a
And then following that, I believe on
10
discussion between the acting base surgeon and the
11
regimental sergeant major, I believe it was on the
12
7th of March, which outlined a series of protocol
13
that Corporal Langridge was going to be presented
14
with to provide him some stability or continuity or
15
structure.
16
Q.
Okay, so we are going to get
17
into that for a moment, but let's just look at
18
chronology a little bit.
19
Corporal Langridge thought he was
20
getting released on the 4th.
In fact, he was
21
released on the 5th.
22
had a room in what in military terms is called the
23
shacks, which was quarters for enlisted men.
We know, you have told us he
24
And by the way, I understand it's
25
quite unusual for someone with Corporal Langridge's
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seniority to be housed in those quarters.
2
A.
That's not true.
The shacks,
3
the accommodations are specifically set aside for
4
young troopers and corporals.
5
in Edmonton, this is the most affordable housing
6
for them.
7
Based on the economy
A lot of soldiers that arrive to
8
the regiment don't have vehicles or they don't have
9
the funds to rent downtown nor for the
10
transportation, so this is an easy fix for new
11
soldiers to the base, as well as, like I say, the
12
shacks are primarily for troopers and corporals.
13
There are other buildings that are
14
set aside for different rank levels, so it's not
15
uncommon for officers to reside on base in a
16
similar building but just down the road.
17
Q.
Could you turn up Tab 35.
18
This is an e-mail chain and,
19
again, we have to look at it from the bottom up.
20
It's amongst yourself, Charlene Ferdinand, who is a
21
nurse in the CDU, and master -- regimental sergeant
22
major Ross, Captain Volstad, who's a 2 IC, I
23
understand, and that's forwarded to Major Chenette
24
in due course.
25
Let's start at the bottom. This is
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from you to Charlene:
2
"I am currently on leave but
3
have c.c.'d the RSM on this
4
e-mail.
5
local 3180 or send him an
6
e-mail.
7
should also contact Craig
8
Volstad, 2 IC H2 Squadron, at
9
local 3126.
Please call him at
Failing that, you
Both will be
10
available to assist you.
11
can also send them e-mails
12
and they can assist.
13
send me anything without name
14
-- if you can send me
15
anything without names, just
16
the details, I may be able to
17
assist via BlackBerry."[as
18
read]
19
20
You
If you
And in response to this, Captain
Volstad sends you an e-mail saying:
21
"Lubes, for your information,
22
I have made arrangements to
23
watch him over the weekend;
24
i.e., phone calls and
25
check-in times."[as read]
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There is also a redaction which
2
the Commission believes is an improper redaction,
3
but we will deal with that in due course.
4
5
Can you tell me what this is
about?
6
A.
No, without Charlene's
7
e-mail.
I can speculate that it's with regards to
8
the -- regards to what would be done with Corporal
9
Langridge over the course of the weekend.
10
Q.
Yes.
Well, do you have any
11
recollection of those discussions?
12
the top e-mail from Captain Volstad to you, that he
13
is reporting that he has made certain arrangements
14
to watch over him, whom I take to be Corporal
15
Langridge, over the weekend, and he specifies phone
16
calls and check-in times.
17
A.
It seems, from
There was one conversation
18
that I had with Charlene, I am not sure if it's
19
specific to this one, where they had asked or
20
informed us that he was going to be released from
21
the care of the military medical community, which
22
would make sense looking at the timeline here being
23
a Friday, the 7th of March. And them saying that
24
'we are going to turn him over to the regiment, we
25
would recommend that you guys maintain contact with
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him over the weekend'.
2
Q.
What was your understanding
3
of the purpose of maintaining contact with him over
4
the weekend?
5
A.
Well, this is what I went
6
back to her with, was, if you are telling me that
7
he is a risk to himself or to others, then I am not
8
willing to take control of this individual, and he
9
should be either retained within the military
10
medical community or processed back into a civilian
11
hospital if there is a threat to himself or to
12
others.
13
And if you are telling me that
14
there is no threat to himself or to others and that
15
you are happy to release him for the weekend, then,
16
to me, it would seem a little absurd that you would
17
be asking us to maintain a contact or watch over
18
him for the weekend.
19
It would appear that she had
20
spoken to Captain Volstad at some point in between
21
our discussion, and he had decided that he would
22
maintain a phone call register or log with Corporal
23
Langridge as a small control measure that the
24
regiment was going to put in place.
25
Q.
Okay, well, I am a little
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puzzled by some of what you said in view of the
2
language you use.
3
In your e-mail to Ms. Ferdinand,
4
it would appear to me that you are inviting her to
5
contact Captain Volstad to assist her in whatever
6
it is that she wants to do, and you are also
7
advising that the RSM could be sent an e-mail for
8
assistance, and you're asking her to send you
9
something that doesn't include names, just details.
10
So I am having a little bit of
11
difficulty squaring that with the concept that you
12
were discouraging whatever it was that Ms.
13
Ferdinand was asking for.
14
A.
With regards to the sending
15
information without names, you know, because I was
16
on leave and operating off a BlackBerry, which are
17
not secure communications and we don't transmit
18
anything with medical information or personal
19
information such as this over a BlackBerry or
20
unsecured e-mail, we use our secured e-mail, that's
21
why I would make a comment like that.
22
Without having the text below as
23
to what myself and Charlene were discussing, it's
24
-- I am just finding it difficult to provide a
25
complete answer to you at this time.
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Q.
My understanding is that
2
there was no other e-mail, but perhaps I am wrong,
3
and that this had been originated as a telephone
4
conversation.
5
A.
I am not sure.
6
Q.
Okay, so from your
7
recollection, you had discouraged Nurse Ferdinand
8
from contemplating anything that involved
9
preventing Corporal Langridge from harming himself,
10
and you had told her that you didn't see the point
11
of observing him if it wasn't to prevent him from
12
harming himself?
13
A.
I wouldn't use those words.
14
I think what I was attempting to do is put some
15
responsibility back on the medical chain of
16
command.
17
afternoon, at 2:46 p.m., for someone to say 'this
18
is no longer my problem.
19
weekend.
20
are not going to provide you any information on his
21
mental state or his treatment program, but take
22
care of him until Monday, then you can ship him
23
back to us and we will deal with him during normal
24
business hours'.
I think it's too easy on a Friday
I want to go enjoy my
Regiment, you take over at this point. We
25
So I was frustrated at some of the
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lack of information that was being pushed to us yet
2
some of the responsibility that was being
3
shouldered by the regiment at the same time and
4
lack of what I perceived to be any responsibility
5
being taken by the medical community at this point.
6
Q.
Okay, now, the top e-mail is
7
addressed to you and states that arrangements have
8
been made to watch him over the weekend; did you
9
have an understanding from Captain Volstad as to
10
what he had arranged and why?
11
A.
Well, if I read the second
12
part, phone calls and check-in times, I don't -- I
13
don't recall, but reading this I would say that he
14
was phoning in on a scheduled basis just to confirm
15
that everything was well.
16
Q.
And did you have any further
17
communication about this from Captain Volstad or
18
from Nurse Ferdinand specifically with respect to
19
the weekend arrangements?
20
A.
I haven't seen any
21
documentation and, once again, this is, some of
22
these details are starting to blend together, so,
23
no, I don't.
24
25
Q.
All right, can we, then, look
at Tab 36, perhaps.
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This is yet another e-mail chain,
2
although I think that the original e-mail is just
3
about the same time as the previous e-mail chain,
4
if I am not mistaken.
5
6
No, in fact, it's somewhat after
that first -- that e-mail chain.
7
And this is an e-mail, again, we
8
have to read it backwards, the first e-mail is from
9
Captain Hannah -- sorry -- no, I have it right.
10
The bottom e-mail is 7th of March, 1426 p.m., and
11
your conversation or your exchange of e-mails with
12
Nurse Ferdinand was, the first one was at 10:20
13
a.m.
14
at 2:46 p.m., which is 20 minutes after this
15
e-mail.
The second one, perhaps coincidentally, was
16
So this is an e-mail from Captain
17
Hannah to the regimental sergeant major. And the
18
reason I am asking you about it is because you are
19
shown on the first page as having received this
20
approximately an hour later, along with Major Jared
21
and -- along with Major Jared.
22
subsequently, Captain Hannah receives a copy of the
23
entire correspondence on the Monday.
24
25
And then
But on the Friday at 2 p.m.,
Captain Hannah writes to the regimental sergeant
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major:
2
"With respect to Corporal
3
Langridge, please be advised
4
that I would like to impose
5
the following medical
6
occupational employment
7
limitations:
8
"1.
9
absolutely from alcohol and
Member is to abstain
10
drugs unless prescribed by a
11
physician.
12
"2.
13
treatment plan which includes
14
him remaining under the
15
supervision of LdSH(RC).
16
"3.
17
scheduled appointments as
18
directed by medical services.
19
"I hope this is helpful.
20
further clarity is required,
21
please call.
22
notations were faxed to
23
regiment -- will be faxed to
24
the regiment on CF 2018 later
25
this afternoon."[as read]
Member is to comply with
Member to attend all
If
The same
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2
Let me just start off with that
last point.
What is CF 2018; do you know?
3
4
A.
It's a medical form of
Q.
Okay, now, this is addressed
limitations.
5
6
to the regimental sergeant major who is responsible
7
for the well-being of soldiers, and you told us
8
both from a disciplinary sense and from a
9
den-mother sense.
10
What is the responsibility of the
11
regiment, and specifically the regimental sergeant
12
major, with respect to medical employment
13
limitations?
14
A.
Medical employment
15
limitations as prescribed by the medical community,
16
for the most part, are taken at face value and
17
adhered to by the chain of command.
18
Now, there are situations or
19
circumstances where the chain of command can decide
20
not to adhere to those limitations but would be
21
taking the responsibility of repercussions onto
22
their own shoulders.
23
So if a soldier had a medical
24
limitation that said he was unfit to do drill and I
25
decided to put him on parade regardless of what
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that chit said, then I would be responsible if his
2
condition deteriorated.
3
Q.
Have you ever seen medical
4
employment limitations like these?
And I ask you
5
only because they don't look to me like employment
6
limitations.
7
but not employment conditions.
They certainly look like conditions,
8
A.
No.
9
Q.
Given that you were also in
10
charge of discipline and, by extension, well-being,
11
would you have any idea of how to action such
12
medical employment limitations?
13
14
A.
Well, I think if we take a
look up the e-mail process here --
15
Q.
Yes.
16
A.
-- the RSM took what was
17
offered by the medical community and developed a
18
series of protocol that would ensure that those
19
three limitations or prescribed direction for the
20
member would be reasonably adhered to.
21
Q.
Okay.
Now, did you have any
22
role in the formulation of these limitations or of
23
these conditions?
24
25
A.
No.
As per the previous
document, I was on leave that specific day, the
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7th, the day that these were drafted and put into
2
place.
3
4
Q.
Did anyone at any time seek
your opinion about them?
5
A.
Not prior to.
At the end of
6
the day, I am a staff officer in the position of
7
the adjutant.
8
this case, it would be under the authority of the
9
commanding officer to approve these.
The commanders make the decisions in
The RSM
10
wouldn't have the approval authority to impose
11
these himself, nor would I as the adjutant have the
12
authority to impose restrictions like this.
13
would be a decision made by the commanding officer.
14
Q.
It
All right, now, do you have
15
any idea of how these were implemented and with
16
what result?
17
A.
Well, we can -- would you
18
like to walk through each one or just a
19
generalization?
20
21
Q.
Sure, yeah, yes, let's look
at each one:
22
"Corporal Langridge will wear
23
his uniform during normal
24
duty hours and perform duties
25
as directed by the RSM."[as
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read]
2
A.
All soldiers at work wear a
3
uniform during normal duty hours, be it PT gear,
4
physical training gear, or combat uniform.
5
6
Q.
So this isn't a change from
the regular expectations of any soldier?
7
A.
No.
8
Q.
"Normal workday will be
9
Monday through Friday, 8 a.m.
10
to -- 800 to 1430 daily.
11
Weekends will be free unless
12
otherwise directed by the
13
RSM."[as read]
14
A.
Normal workday for soldiers
15
commences at 0800 hours for physical training,
16
which lasts an hour, and then the day continues
17
until 1630 hours.
18
any soldier in the regiment.
19
20
So this is a regular workday for
Q.
My understanding is that this
is a half hour longer than a regular workday.
21
A.
There is summer and winter
22
hours.
Sometimes we work until 1600, and then
23
summer hours see us working later, or it might be
24
reversed.
25
Q.
Okay.
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"He will have freedom of
2
movement with the following
3
restrictions:
4
live in the regimental duty
5
centre, bedded in the
6
defaulters room."[as read]
7
A.
a), he will
I believe this was to address
8
the Point 1 from Dr. Hannah, abstain absolutely
9
from alcohol.
This was a mechanism whereby the
10
staff on duty would be aware if he had consumed
11
alcohol.
12
Whereas if he was residing in the
13
emergency room that had been originally established
14
for him in the men's quarters, once he was in his
15
room there, there would be no ability for the
16
regiment to know if he was following that
17
guideline.
18
Q.
19
to that in a moment.
All right, I will come back
20
"b), at no time will his door
21
be closed."[as read]
22
23
A.
I would have to refer to the
-- I don't know the answer for this one.
24
Q.
25
So let's go to c):
"He will have a curfew of
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2100 hours daily."[as read]
2
A.
My speculation would be that
3
this would have him back in regimental lines by
4
2100 hours to prevent him from being able to go to
5
bars or any other establishments that serve
6
alcohol.
7
Q.
And I am not trying to be
8
difficult about this, but he could presumably go to
9
a bar at 700 hours, or sorry, at 1900 hours, have a
10
couple of drinks and still be back by 2100 hours;
11
he has freedom of movement.
12
A.
I believe there is...
13
Perfectly true, yes, he could decide to go and
14
drink if he wanted to.
15
Q.
"d), he will report to the
16
duty officer every two hours
17
on the hour daily."[as read]
18
19
A.
Just to maintain
understanding of where he was at.
20
Once again, these are my
21
interpretation of what you are listing out here.
22
wasn't the one that created them, so when Mr. Ross
23
is here, he will be able to provide further
24
clarification.
25
Q.
I
Okay, maybe what we will do,
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then, is we will await RSM Ross and we will ask his
2
rationale for this.
3
I was only asking you because I
4
thought that perhaps there had been a conversation
5
with you to explain these and that you might have
6
had some input in those conversations.
7
A.
8
7th.
9
leave.
No, I was on leave on the
This was conducted that day while I was on
When I came back to work on the following
10
Monday, I believe they would have already been in
11
place and approved by the commanding officer.
12
Q.
Now, when we looked at the
13
preceding document, we noted that Captain Volstad
14
was informing you that a watch or something had
15
been organized to watch him; i.e., check-in times,
16
I think it said phone check-in times.
17
Phone calls and check-in times.
18
Now, do you have any understanding
19
as to the relationship between that information
20
that Captain Volstad was sending you and the
21
conditions that he will report to the duty officer
22
every two hours on the hour daily, or do you think
23
this is something separate?
24
25
A.
It would be my assumption
that the two are one and the same.
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Q.
And the reason I am asking is
2
that Captain Volstad is talking about organizing a
3
watch or organizing somebody to watch him on the
4
weekend, and when we get to the conditions, we are
5
now talking about daily and not just for the
6
weekend.
7
8
A.
Right, I believe that this
carried on following.
9
The other point I note is Corporal
10
Langridge was not charged, he was not confined to
11
barracks, he was not required to adhere to this.
12
He voluntarily accepted the conditions as set out.
13
And at any time, he could have raised the issue
14
through his chain of command or to the RSM that he
15
didn't agree with the conditions and that he wasn't
16
going to follow them, and then at that point, the
17
regiment would have had to make a decision as to
18
how they would have proceeded with that.
19
But it's my understanding that
20
when these were presented to him, he agreed to the
21
conditions as set forth, realized that they were
22
for some structure for himself and in his best
23
interest, as well as for his -- the health and
24
welfare of him, and were not being used as a
25
punishment.
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Q.
And what's the basis for that
2
understanding?
What is the basis for your
3
understanding that Corporal Langridge accepted this
4
willingly and voluntarily?
5
A.
Twofold, one is he was not
6
obliged to, he wasn't charged.
7
there is another e-mail somewhere that states that
8
he voluntarily accepted the conditions.
9
sure where, which document it is referred to in
10
And the second was,
I am not
here.
11
Q.
I think it's in a document
12
that purports to be a report of an interview with
13
you by the military police.
14
seen it elsewhere, but we will come to that in a
15
minute.
16
I am not sure I have
Let's look for a moment at
17
"Significant Incident Sheet", Tab 39.
18
what you were talking about.
19
is where I saw it, at least the first time.
20
This may be
So I apologize, this
This is a report that you provided
21
to HQ1 in Edmonton -- sorry, to Ottawa, I guess.
22
And Point 2 says:
23
"At approximately 15 1-3-5
24
March '08, the LdSH(RC) chain
25
of command was informed that
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a soldier from the unit had
2
committed suicide at CFB ASU
3
Edmonton single quarters.
4
The member was residing in
5
the regimental duty centre
6
under his own admittance in
7
conjunction with regimental
8
direction."[as read]
9
And then it continues.
10
So I have seen that "in terms of
11
his own admittance".
12
there is any other basis you can remember.
13
A.
I was just wondering whether
It might have been in a
14
conversation with the regimental sergeant major,
15
perhaps, when I returned to work the following
16
Monday or the commanding officer when I took a look
17
at these in detail.
18
had mentioned to me that they were presented, he
19
volunteered to abide by them, and I took that for
20
what it was worth and included it in the
21
Significant Incident Report to the headquarters in
22
Ottawa.
23
Q.
And perhaps at that time, they
Now, we had seen before, a
24
report or a medical record compiled by Captain
25
Hannah discussing his interactions with Corporal
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Langridge on the morning of March 7th, and the
2
afternoon is when these conditions were formulated.
3
In it, Captain Hannah reports that
4
he has been told that Corporal Langridge has not
5
been abiding by conditions that he had agreed to
6
and that there was a report that he was harassing
7
his common-law spouse.
8
9
Were you aware of either of these
two events or either of these two issues?
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
Okay.
Did you have any
12
conversations with Corporal Langridge following the
13
imposition of these conditions?
14
A.
There was one point where we
15
talked -- the exact dates, I am not sure of the
16
date.
17
sometime around the 14th -- prior to the weekend
18
where he had made mention that he thought that he
19
was doing well, adhering to the structure that was
20
outlined; that he was looking to see if it would be
21
possible to extend some of the reporting times,
22
possibly from two hours to four hours, to give him
23
a break to be able to do other activities or spend
24
more time away from the base.
It might have been the following week,
25
General discussion like that.
And
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I think at that time, I had told him we were happy
2
with his performance and the way he was conducting
3
himself up to that point, and following the
4
weekend, if it was acceptable, we would sit down
5
with the RSM, myself and the member, and review the
6
protocol as put forward and see if we could make
7
some changes that would benefit him, while, at the
8
same time, ensure that concerns from the medical
9
community were still being addressed.
10
Q.
Were you aware at that point
11
that Corporal Langridge had been checked into the
12
Royal Alberta[sic] Hospital and had been certified
13
on the 11th and 12th of March, two days before your
14
discussion with him?
15
A.
I have it listed as the 12th
17
Q.
That's probably correct.
18
A.
-- but if it's the 11th and
Q.
It's probably the 12th and
A.
I have:
16
19
and 13th.
12th --
20
21
13th.
22
23
"Member self-admits himself
24
to the Royal Alex Hospital
25
for approximately 48
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hours."[as read]
2
3
Q.
Well, we know that now. What
did you know at the time?
4
A.
I don't remember what, if
5
there was specific details as to why he was checked
6
in, nor was there any feedback from the medical
7
community on base to the chain of command as to why
8
he was checked in.
9
There had been, because of the
10
number of self-admittance into different treatment
11
facilities, I think we saw this as his possibly
12
going through some withdrawal from being, having to
13
abstain from the alcohol or the drugs, potentially.
14
Any time that he checked in, I think that we
15
believed it was a good thing.
16
professional help that he needed.
17
He was getting the
I don't pretend for a second to
18
say that the regiment knew how to deal with this
19
soldier 100 per cent perfectly, that wouldn't be
20
the truth.
21
I think with the information that
22
we had, the information that was shared with the,
23
from either the civilian or the military doctors to
24
us, we took every step that we could to assist with
25
half information, with bits and pieces.
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The RSM didn't come up with this
2
list of conditions that Corporal Langridge agreed
3
to follow by as punishment, it was done with
4
general interest and care for a soldier.
5
So when we look at this and he
6
self-admits into a hospital again, I think for us,
7
it was okay; finally, maybe somebody will take a
8
look and find something else or maybe somebody will
9
keep him for longer than two days or three days
10
before they release him back to us.
11
medical community will be able to gather more
12
information and come up with a better game plan
13
than saying to the regiment, 'it is Friday
14
afternoon, he is your responsibility once again'.
15
Q.
Maybe the
I sense a great deal of
16
frustration from your point of view with the
17
medical community, both civilian and military, in
18
terms of the onus that was placed on you and on the
19
chain of command to deal with this issue.
20
A.
Very much so.
There is
21
allegations throughout all of this that I didn't
22
perform my job, that my regiment failed this
23
soldier as an individual.
24
very hurtful.
25
leader, a perfect soldier or I did everything
And to be honest, it is
I am not saying that I am a perfect
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perfect with regards to Corporal Langridge.
2
the information I had, I did the best that I knew
3
how to do.
4
With
There is no specific training that
5
we are given as adjutants.
I am not trained in how
6
to minister soldiers, I am trained to lead soldiers
7
in combat operations.
8
training for, that is what the army invested its
9
money in.
That's where I spend my time
I get brought into a position such as
10
the adjutant and within a few weeks of being put
11
into that position, I had my first suicide attempt,
12
which I have never dealt with a suicide attempt.
13
We were dealing with severe
14
addictions and mental health here, and we tried to
15
obtain the information that we could to help
16
Corporal Langridge, and in a lot of cases, we were
17
met with resistance.
18
confidentiality would come up, 'you are not privy
19
to that type of information', the last-minute
20
requests to take control and responsibility of a
21
member at 2:46 p.m. on a Friday and hastily put
22
measures into place that would attempt to follow
23
what the medical community was asking us to do.
24
25
The doctor/patient
We are not perfect, but I think
that at the end of the day, everything we did was
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with his best interests and his health and welfare
2
in mind.
3
Corporal Langridge, we never closed our doors on
4
him and said, you know, 'it's Friday afternoon, I
5
want to get home to my family'.
6
'what can we do to help, what can we do to give you
7
the support you need', and placing a lot of
8
responsibility on other soldiers in the regiment.
We never, we never walked away once from
9
It was open doors,
My soldiers are not trained to
10
deal with substance abuse and attempted suicide. So
11
the people that were on duty during that period of
12
time, they did the best job that they knew how to
13
do.
14
armoured vehicles in combat.
15
to assess, diagnose and provide especially
16
information or treatment to these individuals, so
17
in a lot of cases, we relied on the medical staff.
But once again, they are trained to fight
18
They are not trained
I don't want to say that they
19
failed us, but we were put in a difficult position,
20
and for people now to turn and say that we failed
21
this soldier, I find it to be very untrue.
22
regiment did everything that we could with what we
23
had and kept him at the forefront throughout all of
24
this.
25
Q.
The
Thank you.
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I am going to ask now about an
2
unpleasant topic, but we have to, and that's the
3
actual day of the suicide and how you found out
4
about it and the events surrounding.
5
Can you take us back to the 15th
6
of March, what was going on that day and how did
7
you find out about this event and the context of
8
what was going on that day?
9
A.
The 15th of March, we had
10
just finished burying Trooper Michael Hayakaze, who
11
previously died in Afghanistan.
12
finished, and we were on our way back to the
13
regiment for the post-funeral reception with the
14
family and the soldiers of the regiment.
15
prior to pulling into the parking lot at the
16
regiment, I received a phone call from the duty
17
staff notifying me that the duty staff had found
18
Corporal Langridge hanging in his room in the
19
single quarters.
The funeral had
Just
20
Q.
We -- I will leave that.
21
What was the nature of your duties
22
following the discovery of the suicide?
I take it,
23
as adjutant, you had some significant role to play
24
in, if I can put it this way, cleaning up
25
afterwards.
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A.
Immediately upon notification
2
of the death, I assembled my administrative team,
3
the chief clerk, some of her staff and the member's
4
squadron commander. Immediately, the first step is
5
identifying all on the personal emergency
6
notification form who has to be notified
7
immediately and then putting the steps in place for
8
the notification.
9
10
A series of paperwork and
documents and checks that follow that.
11
When the emergency contacts
12
notification people listed on it are from outside
13
of the immediate Edmonton area, it makes it more
14
difficult for notification to occur in face
15
immediately.
16
personal emergency notification form, Mr. and Mrs.
17
Fynes were listed as the primary and secondary for
18
notification.
19
In this case, on the PEN form, the
With them residing in BC, and just
20
looking at, obviously, time and space between
21
getting somebody there to notify them in person
22
immediately, I contacted the G1, who is the
23
administration officer for all of 1 Brigade, so all
24
the soldiers in Edmonton, and requested that he go
25
through Land Force Western Area Headquarters, who
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controls units in other reserve units in British
2
Columbia, to stand up a notification team with a
3
padre and assisting officer that would be able to
4
conduct the notification in person to the Fynes'
5
residence that afternoon or evening.
6
Concurrent to that, we started
7
going through a checklist of all the documents that
8
were going to be required for submission through
9
the chain of command.
10
11
Q.
Do you recall what those
documents would have been?
12
A.
The will would have been
13
pulled from the pers file, supplementary death
14
benefits, Memorial Cross form, there would have
15
been messages generated for death notification to
16
Ottawa as well.
17
I am missing.
18
And there may be a few others that
Q.
I would like to deal with one
19
topic in that constellation which I think we will
20
be hearing a little bit about in the days and weeks
21
to come, and that's the issue of next of kin.
22
From your point of view, what was
23
the importance, if any, of determining who the next
24
of kin was in terms of your responsibilities?
25
A.
For myself, the next of kin
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was required for submission to Ottawa for some of
2
the benefits that would be provided.
3
Q.
All right.
And had you had
4
any experience previously in dealing with these
5
issues?
6
concurrent on that same day, did that provide you
7
with some experience as to how to go about matters
8
related to next of kin?
You told us there was another funeral
9
A.
Yes.
The previous, Michael
10
Hayakaze's case was a little bit more
11
straightforward than this one.
12
Q.
It would have to have been.
13
A.
His mother was his, on the
14
personal emergency notification was the primary
15
contact.
16
have a common-law spouse or a wife.
17
made the process a lot more transparent for us with
18
regards to that case.
She was also his next of kin.
19
He didn't
So that really
For this one, on the member's
20
military, one of his military forms, MPRR -- you
21
will have to excuse me, I forget what the acronym
22
stands for right now, but on there, it clearly
23
outlines next of kin, marital status.
24
Corporal Langridge's case, it was common-law status
25
with Rebecca Hamilton-Tree dating back, I believe,
And in
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until -- I don't have the date listed here, but it
2
was recorded on there that she was the next of kin.
3
Q.
Okay.
With that information,
4
then, you told us that that was helpful to you in
5
terms of determining who needed to be notified, and
6
I take it that was accomplished.
7
in the notification process?
8
9
A.
notification.
Were you involved
Not in the actual
I was involved in the legwork
10
getting, like I said, the individuals from BC
11
prepared to conduct the notification, providing
12
them with some of the information.
13
And then obtaining phone numbers
14
for my commanding officer to follow up with phone
15
calls to family and Rebecca as well.
16
Now, there were some discrepancies
17
in phone numbers, and I believe prior to the Fynes
18
being notified by the notification team in BC, they
19
had been notified by Rebecca, I believe.
20
Mrs. Fynes had called the regiment and, I believe,
21
left a proper -- her accurate phone number.
22
then Colonel Demers was able to phone her back and
23
conduct the notification by phone prior to the
24
face-to-face notification occurring.
25
Q.
And then
And
Now, referring back to
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Exhibit 18, which is your personal chronology, if
2
you look at the bottom of the second page under 15
3
March '08, you have got "MPRR states marital status
4
is common law"; what is MPRR?
5
A.
That's the one, sir, that I
6
just -- it's a document that outlines the military
7
history of the member.
8
tombstone data, dependents, common law, sorry, next
9
of kin, it would get into honours and awards,
So it would have all his
10
deployments, courses of training.
11
synopsis of a person's entire military career.
12
MS. RICHARDS:
So it's a
If it assists the
13
Commission, I know what the acronym is.
For the
14
record, it is Member's Personal Records Resume.
15
THE WITNESS:
Thank you.
16
MR. FREIMAN:
Thank you very much.
17
BY MR. FREIMAN:
18
Q.
All right, so if I then
19
follow the next entry, which is over the next page,
20
you have got the PEN form, which is personal
21
emergency notification?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
The form identifies Shaun as
24
PNOK, which is primary next of kin, and Sheila as
25
SNOK, which is secondary next of kin, and you have
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in round brackets, "for emergency notification".
2
Can you help us to understand the
3
difference between the first notation that the MPRR
4
states marital status as common law and the second
5
one identifying the parent as primary and secondary
6
next of kin for emergency notification?
7
A.
I don't know if it's because
8
of this situation, but the military has changed its
9
forms.
Right now, there is a personal emergency
10
notification form that says the primary contact in
11
an emergency situation will be so-and-so.
12
Q.
Yes.
13
A.
It also now has a second form
14
that states next of kin.
15
It is confusing that on the
16
personal emergency notification form, you would
17
have two boxes listing primary and secondary next
18
of kin listed.
19
Q.
Yes.
20
A.
In the CFAOs, Canadian Forces
21
Administration Orders, 2618 clearly outlines that
22
the names provided in the PEN form are for
23
emergency notification only and hold no weight or
24
are not to be used for next of kin in a legal
25
sense.
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Q.
Now, the reason, of course,
2
you know why I am asking and let's make it obvious,
3
there does seem to have been a great deal of
4
inconsistent communication involving the concept of
5
next of kin, as you are aware, and I would just
6
like to take you through some of that to try to
7
clarify it.
8
9
We can look at Tab 45 to start
there.
10
At Tab 45, we find an e-mail from
11
Major Chenette -- I am sorry, from Major Bruce, to
12
a wide variety of people, and I think you are
13
included, yes, you are included on the list.
14
And it states:
15
"Approximately 15 minutes
16
ago, I was advised of subject
17
from adjutant LdSH --"[as
18
read]
19
That would have been you:
20
"-- primary -- P-S --"[as
21
read]
22
Meaning primary-secondary:
23
"-- next of kin are
24
stepfather and mother in
25
Victoria, BC."[as read]
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2
So that, again, I take it that,
from your understanding, was --
3
A.
It was a poor choice of words
4
in my drafting or my notification to Mr. Bruce.
5
should have said the primary and secondary next of
6
kin on the PEN form is the mother and father.
7
I can see where this would cause some confusion.
8
9
Q.
Tab 50.
I
And
And if you look with me at
These are notes that appear to have been
10
compiled by Major Parkinson, who was the assisting
11
officer assigned to Mr. and Mrs. Fynes in Victoria
12
to assist them with matters dealing with this, the
13
funeral and aftermath.
14
If you look at Point 3(b),
15
situation, about four lines from the bottom, there
16
is a notation "PNK is Shaun Fynes, SNK is Sheila
17
Fynes", and then gives the residence.
18
My understanding is that, again,
19
this may have been as a result of a conversation
20
with you that these notes were compiled; do you
21
recall whether that's accurate? No, I am sorry, I
22
am wrong, it says "Briefed by CO".
23
information from the commanding officer and not
24
from you.
25
This is
On the other hand, if you look at
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Tab 55, again, it's, this is from
2
Lieutenant-Colonel Demers, the commanding officer,
3
it's sent to Major Cadieu, who was the commander of
4
the regiment, I believe -- or the squadron?
5
6
He was the second-in-command
Q.
Okay.
of the regiment.
7
8
A.
And copied to you.
And the e-mail reads:
9
"Ac --"[as read]
10
Meaning acknowledged:
11
"-- given the docs on file,
12
it seems Rebecca is PNOK, so
13
we need to follow her
14
wishes."[as read]
15
And then it relates to some
16
disagreements that were already beginning to
17
surface between the parents and the common-law
18
spouse, and it ends with:
19
"I hope we can calm them
20
down."[as read]
21
22
Do you remember receiving this and
what your understanding was as a result of this?
23
A.
I do remember.
This was, you
24
know, the CO providing direction that Rebecca was
25
the next of kin based on the MPRR data that we had.
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Q.
Right.
Now, I also
2
understand that there was a casualty coordination
3
meeting a couple of days after the death that you
4
and a cast of dozens, it seems, would have
5
attended.
6
And this is Tab 47.
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
What was your role, to your
9
10
recollection, with respect to the casualty
coordination meeting?
11
A.
I was there in attendance,
12
Regimental 2 IC, Major Cadieu at the time, chaired
13
the meeting.
14
everybody to be kind of briefed or brought up to
15
speed on the current situation to make sure that
16
everybody was operating with the same information
17
and develop a plan of action for the way ahead.
18
And it was an opportunity for
Q.
And there appears to be an
19
assignment of roles for the casualty coordination
20
meeting.
21
sequence of events, timeline until completion of
22
funeral, and that is assigned to you and to the
23
regimental sergeant major.
The first role is SIP rep general
24
25
Can you help us with what that
would have entailed?
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A.
At that point, we would have
2
just provided a general update on events that had
3
occurred from the time of death until the time of
4
meeting.
5
timeline from the end of the meeting until the
6
funeral and just making sure that, once again,
7
everybody was up to speed and operating from the
8
same information.
We would be responsible for drafting the
9
Q.
And the next responsibility
10
is "administer responsibility to include BOI,
11
ensure next of kin notified of BOI, committee of
12
adjustment, death benefits, outstanding casualty
13
administration, letters of condolence, notification
14
of regiment core family". And, again, it's you and,
15
this time, the 2 IC who are assigned to that cast.
16
17
Now, is the 2 IC here Captain
Volstad?
18
A.
That's Major Cadieu.
19
Q.
Major Cadieu, okay.
20
And I think it's pretty clear what
21
this is about.
22
would be involved in these steps.
23
Maybe you could flesh out what
A.
It's just a checklist of
24
items that needed to be completed in the days that
25
followed the Committee of Adjustment, assigning a
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chair for that, which became Major Jared, and he
2
took over the responsibility of that. Looking at
3
death benefits, the casualty admin, all of this was
4
just to make sure that we were able to cover all of
5
the administration paperwork, et cetera, that
6
needed to be done, and then submit it to the
7
respective authorities, such as Death and Benefits
8
here in Ottawa.
9
A lot of the information that we
10
were submitting fell outside of the regiment's
11
control.
We don't decide who is entitled to what.
12
We provide the documentation to the respective
13
authorities and then it's those authorities that
14
make the decisions on who is paid, you know, how
15
things are processed.
16
17
Q.
Well, the next bullet point
seems to extend that a little bit.
It says:
18
"Administrative issues to
19
include delineation of PNOK
20
for purposes of benefits and
21
inter-family
22
sensitivities."[as read]
23
And here, it's, again, you, and a
24
legal officer, the AJAG, and the assisting officer.
25
In this case, there were two assisting officers, I
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guess.
2
Can you help us with what this was
3
about?
Because we have just seen an e-mail from
4
Lieutenant-Colonel Demers that appears already to
5
have established that the primary next of kin was
6
Ms. Hamilton-Tree.
7
8
A.
The e-mail from Colonel
Demers was on the 17th of March.
9
Q.
Oh, sorry.
10
A.
This meeting, this is
11
written, you know, in the present, and the meeting
12
was going to take place in the future, so this is
13
kind of a schedule of events for the meeting.
14
wanted to make sure that we were following
15
procedure and that the regiment was acting in
16
accordance with policy.
17
We
So, yes, we invited a legal
18
representative to attend the meeting, and from
19
there, decisions were made and we proceeded.
20
Q.
So was the decision that Ms.
21
Hamilton-Tree was the primary next of kin a result
22
of the discussion at the meeting of March 17th?
23
A.
All of the documents that
24
were in possession were reviewed at that time, and
25
at the conclusion of the meeting, it was determined
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that Rebecca was the next of kin.
2
Q.
Okay.
And we have seen that
3
those responsible for input into that were you, the
4
AJAG and the assisting officers; is that --
5
A.
We provided the information
6
that was put forth, reviewed by the people around
7
the table, and then at the end of the meeting, a
8
decision was made on it, yes.
9
Q.
Okay.
I appreciate the
10
delicacy in the way you are phrasing it.
11
deal with that delicate topic, and not in your
12
testimony but elsewhere, so thank you for that.
13
We will
We have seen the previous e-mail
14
to Major Parkinson, the Fynes' assisting officer,
15
informing him that Mr. and Mrs. Fynes were,
16
respectively, the primary and secondary next of
17
kin.
18
Was there an occasion where you
19
or, to your knowledge, someone else had informed
20
Major Parkinson of a different decision?
21
A.
Once again, I think that
22
Major Parkinson's notes, they might not be
23
completely clear.
24
referring to them primary/secondary next of kin as
25
per the pen form, or if he is referring to them as
It's tough to determine if he is
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the next of kin.
2
can only be one next of kin, so naming both of them
3
as next of kin leads to some of the confusion.
4
You know, and in this case, there
Clearly, following
5
Lieutenant-Colonel Demers' e-mail out, as well as
6
following this meeting whereby Rebecca was
7
identified as the next of kin, that would have been
8
communicated to all.
9
Q.
Do you recall whether Major
10
Parkinson had any response or any reaction to the
11
information that Ms. Hamilton-Tree was being named
12
as next of kin?
13
A.
No, nothing stands out. When
14
he was informed, I briefed him as to the
15
documentation that supported it and he acknowledged
16
it.
17
18
Q.
All right.
Just give me one
minute.
19
As a practical matter, what were
20
the consequences in terms of the funeral or funeral
21
preparations of who was named next of kin?
22
A.
At the end of the day, the
23
next of kin is entitled to plan and coordinate the
24
funeral.
25
have had sole input into the planning and the
In all reality, you know, Rebecca could
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conduct of the funeral.
2
had looked to both of the assisting officers and
3
requested that concessions be made or, hopefully,
4
the family and Rebecca could work together through
5
the planning.
6
In this case, the regiment
There is several documents that
7
clearly demonstrate that there was a strong
8
relationship between them at that time where --
9
between the AOs or direct contact between the
10
parents and Rebecca.
There was a back-and-forth on
11
the, from the flag, to the piper, to the size of
12
the congregation at the chapel, to who would get
13
metals, who would get berets, et cetera, et cetera.
14
And it appears from the leadership's point of view,
15
that both were working hand in hand, you know, with
16
the sole focus of this being a memory of Stuart,
17
his funeral.
18
appeared to be working very well together.
And, you know, like I said, they
19
Q.
20
Tab 57, I think, may be an example
21
One minute.
of an e-mail that you were referring to.
22
Is this what you had in mind in
23
terms of communication back and forth and
24
negotiations about what was to happen at the
25
funeral?
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2
A.
example.
Let me just read through it quickly.
3
4
Q.
So that takes us to the
funeral itself.
5
6
I believe this would be an
Do you have recollections of what
happened on that day and how the funeral went?
7
A.
The funeral was held at the
8
military chapel on base.
9
there was a reception held within the regimental
10
lines put on by the regiment for the family where
11
there were slideshows of Stuart's childhood and
12
military service.
13
by both the family and Rebecca to compile this
14
collage or slideshow of photos.
15
tough as a funeral is, it seemed to be a good
16
celebration of Stuart's life.
17
Following the service,
I believe photos were provided
Q.
I guess it, as
Were you able to observe
18
whether there were any issues as between the Fynes
19
and Ms. Hamilton-Tree during the funeral itself?
20
A.
Not, there was nothing that I
21
observed that day that would have caused any
22
concern or cause me to take notice.
23
It was brought to my attention
24
later, and there is an e-mail that outlines it,
25
where Lieutenant Brown, at the time, the assisting
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officer to Rebecca, had approached me and said that
2
there appeared to be a bit of a riff occurring
3
between the family and Rebecca.
4
believe it was Major Parkinson, I had sent him an
5
e-mail looking to see if there was any detail or
6
anything that could be smoothed out.
7
back to me or sent my e-mail to the family
8
directly, and there was a return from them saying
9
that they were in a period of mourning and weren't
10
And I spoke to, I
And he got
interested in dealing with her.
11
Lieutenant Brown, in his
12
discussion with me, didn't have a whole lot of
13
detail, and what he had provided me from Rebecca
14
was that an incident occurred in one of the female
15
washrooms at the time during the reception where
16
Rebecca was in there with some of her friends, some
17
comments were made and overheard by a member of the
18
family, and Rebecca had told Adam, Lieutenant
19
Brown, that they were taken out of context.
20
At that point in time, I had no
21
idea, nor did Adam provide me with any
22
specifications on what was said, who it was said to
23
or who overheard it.
24
Q.
25
Now, who delivered the
eulogies at the funeral?
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A.
Myself and Mr. Fynes.
2
Q.
And do you recall what the
3
topic of your eulogy was, what the theme of it was?
4
A.
Yes.
The Fynes had asked if
5
-- they identified an unnamed officer at the
6
regiment that Stuart had spoken of in the past and
7
who had served with him overseas.
8
the search, you know, I came to the conclusion that
9
it was me that was being discussed. So when asked
10
When I narrowed
if I would provide the eulogy, I accepted.
11
It was very difficult to prepare
12
this eulogy.
13
evening trying to write this and spent probably
14
half of that on the phone with my father trying to
15
get advice.
16
I spent six hours in my office one
It was difficult to speak about an
17
individual that, you know, had been a soldier that
18
I had worked with overseas and that had served his
19
regiment in the Canadian Forces so well, in
20
contrast with a soldier that had no integrity or
21
honesty left, that was a drug addict and substance
22
abuser and sort of turned his back on his military
23
peers and his regiment.
24
25
I was trying to strike a balance
between being respectful and remembering who he was
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while, at the same time, I am not trying to pull
2
the wool over the eyes of hundreds of soldiers
3
sitting in the chapel that also knew his past, his
4
history.
5
about a wonderful soldier.
It was difficult to walk in and talk
6
So I tried to strike a balance,
7
and I think I started off by saying, you know, we
8
all know that Stuart was dealing with a very dark
9
time in his life over the past months, that he had
10
been dealing with some demons and was probably
11
going through some things that some of us wouldn't
12
understand nor would want to go through ourselves.
13
And then I changed focus completely to speaking
14
about, I think every one of us can remember Stuart
15
Langridge as a soldier, be it on exercise or
16
competing with him in the Mountainman Marathon,
17
serving with him in Afghanistan.
18
to really focus on the memory of him as a soldier
19
and not the recent activities or demons that he was
20
dealing with.
And then I tried
21
MR. FREIMAN:
22
this probably is a good time for a brief recess,
23
and then we will move a little more quickly in the
24
last part of the examination.
25
Mr. Chair, I think
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Yes, if I could
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get a sense as to what you are expecting?
2
MR. FREIMAN:
I expect an hour.
3
THE CHAIRPERSON:
That will be 3
4
to 4 and I don't, I am not trying to pin a time on
5
you, Mr. Drapeau, so I just, like, are you, do you
6
think you are looking at a substantial period of
7
time, or what do you think you are looking at?
8
9
COLONEL DRAPEAU:
My best guess,
45 minutes, 30, 45 minutes.
10
THE CHAIRPERSON:
That lawyer's
12
COLONEL DRAPEAU:
Army time.
13
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Army time, yes.
14
Ms. Richards?
15
MS. McLAINE:
16
THE CHAIRPERSON:
17
MS. McLAINE:
11
18
time or...
I would expect 20
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Okay, so having
COLONEL DRAPEAU:
I will do my
heard that --
21
22
Oh, I'm sorry.
minutes, half an hour tops.
19
20
McLaine.
best to reduce it if I can.
23
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Yes, I am not
24
asking you to reduce it, we saw, my questions
25
aren't for that purpose.
I am just trying to plan
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out the day.
2
Potentially, it looks like we are
3
looking at about, somewhere between 4:30 and 5
4
o'clock.
5
make the necessary arrangements past that, I think
6
we run into real difficulties.
7
you back up in the holidays may be more difficult,
8
so our goal is to try to get it done by about
9
4:30ish.
So if people, reporters and that, can
And I know bringing
If not, we'll play it by hear.
10
MR. FREIMAN:
11
THE CHAIRPERSON:
12
take ten minutes.
13
--- Upon recess at 2:21 p.m.
14
--- Upon resuming at 2:32 p.m.
Thank you.
We will just
Thank you.
15
BY MR. FREIMAN:
16
Q.
Major Lubiniecki, I would
17
like now to discuss an incident that occurred
18
several days before the funeral.
19
understanding that on the, on March 21st, on or
20
about, there was a discovery of new documents.
And it's my
21
Can you help us by giving us your
22
recollection of the sequence of events surrounding
23
the discovery of new documents?
24
25
A.
Sometime around the 21st of
March, Pascal Fitzpatrick, who was the stables NCO,
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so worked in the duty centre at the regiments.
2
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Excuse me, I
3
have heard that word twice, I am missing it.
4
"stables"?
So,
5
THE WITNESS:
6
traditions from a cavalry background, we call it
7
stables.
8
9
10
Because we take our
THE CHAIRPERSON:
"stables".
So I did hear
I just wondered if I was hearing a
different word.
Okay, I'm sorry.
11
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
12
He was in the process of moving
13
some of his, doing some work in his office and came
14
across, I believe, three, four or five documents
15
that were in various stages of completion by
16
Corporal Langridge.
17
Once he had identified and found
18
these documents, he made them available to myself,
19
at which time I immediately scanned them and
20
submitted them through the respective authorities
21
to Death and Benefits, DMCA, et cetera, all of the
22
authorities that would require any of these
23
documents, to ensure that, even though they were
24
not complete, not dated or signed or witnessed,
25
that they wouldn't impact on any of the current
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documents that we were currently working off of.
2
Q.
All right, now, we have an
3
e-mail at Tab 79 that I believe is your
4
notification to the chain of command in Edmonton
5
about this discovery.
6
Do you see it?
7
And what you say is:
8
"Master Corporal F had given
9
Corporal Langridge these
10
documents in January/February
11
to complete but was never
12
given them.
13
that Corporal L placed them
14
in the stable's NCO's office
15
in a corner.
16
has the mom as recipient.
17
The SDB has the mom, not
18
Rebecca, listed on it,
19
however, the date is not
20
completed, nor was it
21
witnessed by anyone, so this
22
may cause it to be void.
23
"Needless to say, the saga
24
continues with this file.
25
will look into it in depth on
It would appear
The will still
We
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Tuesday.
2
Ottawa for input and
3
direction."[as read]
4
Contact JAG and
So that's what happened on Friday
5
the 21st of March, and perhaps it would be useful
6
for us just quickly to look at these four
7
newly-found documents.
8
9
The first is Tab 89.
And this is
a will and, as you noted, it names Sheila Fynes as
10
the beneficiary and it names Shaun Fynes as the
11
executor, but, it is signed but not dated or
12
witnessed.
13
Then Tab 90 is the supplementary
14
death benefits declaration, and it names Mrs. Fynes
15
as the beneficiary of the death benefits, and it's
16
not signed, dated or witnessed.
17
Do you recall, sir, who was the
18
beneficiary on the SDB form that you found in the
19
pers file?
20
A.
Rebecca Hamilton-Tree.
21
Q.
And the next document at Tab
22
91 is the so-called PEN form, the personal
23
emergency notification form.
24
Fynes noted as the primary next of kin, and then
25
for secondary next of kin, we have Sheila Fynes.
And this has Shaun
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And this one is signed and dated.
2
A.
If I could just draw your
3
attention to the dates, it's dated the 28th of
4
February, and this is the time where he's been in
5
Alberta Hospital for 30 days, so the date doesn't
6
--
7
Q.
The date poses a challenge.
8
A.
It poses a question as to the
9
accuracy of the document, yes.
10
Q.
And do you recall who were
11
mentioned on the previous PEN form as primary and
12
secondary next of kin?
13
14
15
16
A.
I don't believe there was a
change in this document.
Both parents were listed.
And if "Sheila" and "Shaun" were reversed,
possibly, but I believe it was as it is here.
17
Q.
And then finally at Tab 92,
18
we have designation of Memorial Cross recipients,
19
and here, was there such a document in the file
20
beforehand?
21
22
A.
I don't remember
Q.
Well, this form is signed and
specifically.
23
24
dated once again 28th of February '08, and it's
25
initialled at the bottom.
And this designates
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Shaun Fynes as the person to receive the Memorial
2
Cross, but in the bottom of the form after the word
3
"or", there is a check in the box that says "I wish
4
no Memorial Cross be granted".
5
All right, so we have seen that
6
you informed the immediate chain of command on the
7
very Friday these were found; that is, the 21st of
8
March.
9
Ottawa, if we look at Tab 8, on the 26th of March,
10
the 27th of March rather -- no, the 26th of March,
11
there is an exchange.
It would appear, however, that you informed
12
A.
Sorry, which tab?
13
Q.
Tab 80.
14
A.
Eighty.
15
Q.
At the bottom of the page,
16
there is an e-mail from you to Suzanne Touchette,
17
who is in charge of Pensions and Estates in Ottawa,
18
where you ask her "to confirm what a MOP is for
19
me"; is MOP "method of proceeding"?
20
A.
Minutes of proceeding.
21
Q.
Minutes of proceeding, okay.
22
And here, you inform Ms. Touchette
23
of what had happened and what had been found, and
24
ask for support and guidance.
25
Was there a reason, sir, why this
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was sent on the 26th, almost a week after it had
2
been found, or after the documents were found?
3
A.
No, perhaps during that time,
4
I had talked to the JAG, they received information
5
from him.
6
submit them.
I don't recall why it took five days to
7
Perhaps the weekend, I am not sure.
Q.
And in response, you got the
8
following communication, and it's also on, at Tab
9
80.
And Ms. Touchette answers my question as well:
10
"Sorry, MOP stands for
11
minutes of proceedings, and
12
what I meant by that is the
13
Committee of Adjustment
14
Report.
15
documents, all I need to
16
receive at my office is the
17
original will, which we
18
already received, and
19
passport, if any.
20
copies of documents you sent
21
to me, they are of no value
22
as they are unsigned, but
23
they may have been drafts of,
24
with original sent to the
25
appropriate sections; i.e.,
As for the other
As for the
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SDB to Death, now DMPAP."[as
2
read]
3
So if I understand correctly, Ms.
4
Touchette is answering you and saying that from her
5
perspective, the documents are worthless but maybe
6
there are some originals or that these are drafts
7
for valid documents that may be found elsewhere;
8
was that your understanding?
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And what, if anything, did
11
you do after receiving Ms. Touchette's
12
communication?
13
A.
I believe that I talked to my
14
chief clerk and asked her to contact the other
15
agencies and see if any other originals had been
16
sent to them, or if the documents that they were
17
working off of were the same ones that we had. And
18
that could have been -- it would have been just a
19
conversation as we worked together on a daily
20
basis.
21
Q.
Now, we have seen that you
22
have informed your own chain of command and you
23
informed Ottawa.
24
25
At any time did you inform Major
Parkinson or Lieutenant Brown, the AO's
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respectively for the Fynes and for Ms.
2
Hamilton-Tree, of the discovery of these forms?
3
A.
I am sure it would have come
4
up in a phone conversation.
We coordinated a lot
5
of the information by phone and then, a lot of
6
times, at the end of the day, the notes were kind
7
of compiled just as a record.
8
Q.
So are you confident that you
9
did discuss this matter with both AOs?
10
A.
I don't remember a specific
11
day or I can't give you a specific time where we
12
would have discussed it, but, yes, I am confident
13
that I would have raised this issue with both of
14
them.
15
The fact that I raised it with the
16
respective agencies in Ottawa that would make
17
decisions on this, I had nothing to hide by keeping
18
any of this information from the AOs or respective
19
family or Rebecca.
20
Q.
All right.
The reason I am
21
asking is, if you look at Tab 79, again, there
22
isn't any mention of the AOs in this, and I don't
23
think I see a document subsequently that includes
24
the AOs in this discussion.
25
A.
Adam Brown worked in the same
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building as me, so we had daily meetings where he
2
would check in a few times throughout the day and
3
we would have discussions.
4
again, we talked on the phone once -- you know,
5
probably once daily to coordinate a lot of the
6
detail vice having to type it out.
7
timesaver, and we could go back and forth via phone
8
vice e-mail.
9
Q.
Major Parkinson, once
It was a
So let's talk just a couple
10
of minutes about, to your recollection, was there
11
ever a change in attitude, while you were adjutant,
12
about the importance of these forms?
13
A.
No.
14
Q.
So let's go over for a moment
15
your relationship with the, and conversations with
16
the two AOs for the family and -- sorry, for Mr.
17
and Mrs. Fynes and for Ms. Hamilton-Tree.
18
The AO for Mr. and Mrs. Fynes was
19
Major Parkinson, and he resided in Victoria.
20
understand that much of your conversation was on
21
the telephone with him?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
I have to ask you this
So I
24
question:
Major Parkinson alleges that in a
25
conversation over the telephone when he was first
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being briefed by you and, subsequently, by other
2
members of the chain of command, each person that
3
he spoke to, beginning with you, told him that
4
Corporal Langridge had been on a suicide watch; do
5
you recall whether you had such a conversation?
6
A.
I would say that's a lie.
7
Q.
Okay.
Major Parkinson, I
8
believe, will also allege that at the funeral, you
9
and he had a discussion about the new SDB form that
10
was found, but that there was no discussion of any
11
of the other three forms; do you recall that as
12
being accurate or inaccurate?
13
A.
No, that would be inaccurate.
14
Q.
Inaccurate?
15
A.
Inaccurate.
16
Q.
Finally, Major Parkinson, I
17
believe, will allege that there was a very strained
18
relationship that began to occur between himself
19
and the chain of command in Edmonton over what he
20
will allege -- and he will allege that the words
21
"Stockholm syndrome" were used in relation to his
22
efforts on behalf of the Fynes family; were you
23
aware of any such development?
24
25
A.
No.
And I never made any
comments that resemble that, nor did I hear my boss
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or my regimental 2 IC make any similar-type
2
comments.
3
I think that there were times when
4
Major Parkinson may have been overwhelmed with some
5
of the dealings that were going on.
6
a few cases, he crossed the line between performing
7
his duty and perhaps providing guidance to the
8
family when he was neither qualified nor tasked
9
with providing the information that he may have
10
And I think in
been giving to them.
11
There is an e-mail that, I am not
12
sure if it's Suzanne Touchette, that is addressed
13
to him that basically outlines the fact that he
14
needs to stay within his archs, so speak to what he
15
is qualified to speak to and provide relevant
16
information to them, but if he doesn't know the
17
answer, he shouldn't be forwarding e-mails from
18
other people to the family direct or coming up with
19
his own interpretations of regulations.
20
Q.
I think the document you are
21
referring to appears at Tab 82 of our collection.
22
And it's an e-mail that -- an e-mail from Suzanne
23
Touchette to Major Parkinson, copies to a number of
24
individuals, and, then, you are then copied on the
25
forwarded e-mail from Major Jared containing this.
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And the third paragraph -- well, maybe we should
2
read the entire thing, and I can get your comments
3
as to what this is referring to. It says:
4
"Major Parkinson, it is
5
determined by various
6
e-mails, this case is
7
sensitive and complex.
8
clear there are disagreements
9
between various stakeholders
10
involved in this estate, and
11
that is why, in my opinion,
12
an assisting officer must
13
exercise great prudence and
14
avoid being drawn into any
15
dispute.
16
"It may be advisable for the
17
executor to retain legal
18
counsel as the next of kin
19
have already done.
20
it is not our place to
21
provide legal advice.
22
administer only the services
23
as is defined in the QR&O,
24
Chapter 25, our
25
responsibility lies with
It is
However,
As we
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administering only a portion
2
of the entire estate which
3
relates to entitlements
4
resulting from the member's
5
service in the Canadian Armed
6
Forces and personal effects
7
in the care and custody of
8
the CF.
9
"In other words, the
10
service's stake is added to
11
the greater estate,
12
therefore, we should only
13
provide information related
14
to the service's stake in
15
accordance with Chapter 25 of
16
QR&O, Section 42 of the
17
National Defence Act.
18
being said, while I
19
administer the service's
20
stake, I deal with the
21
executor, personal
22
representatives of the estate
23
on these matters and not with
24
the next of kin, as you may
25
believe.
This
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"For future reference,
2
because this is such a
3
sensitive issue, I need to
4
inform you that all e-mail
5
communications between us
6
must remain confidential and
7
should not be forwarded to
8
the family or next of kin.
9
You can brief the next of kin
10
and/or executor with issues
11
in relation to the service's
12
stake, but since neither you
13
or I am a lawyer, you should
14
avoid being drawn into
15
discussions concerning the
16
legal matters of the will or
17
SDB issues."[as read]
18
There is question -- there is
19
information as to whom Major Parkinson will be in
20
touch with, and Madam Touchette continues:
21
"I strongly recommend that
22
you get in touch with Major
23
Rory Fowler at your earliest
24
convenience.
25
"Finally, I recommend you
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exercise caution regarding
2
how closely you become
3
involved in issues presented
4
to the decedent -- by the
5
decedent's family.
6
as the assisting officer is
7
limited to informing them of
8
the applicable military
9
regulations and procedures
Your role
10
and does not extend to
11
providing advice to the
12
family. Neither does your
13
role extend to presenting
14
representations by the family
15
relating to any disputes with
16
other stakeholders."[as read]
17
18
This is the communication you are
referring to?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
And does this address issues
21
about which you were familiar or which you had seen
22
developing?
23
A.
No.
This was sort of the
24
first time that I had seen this.
Not today. The
25
first time I had seen this was when Major Jared had
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forwarded it on to me, as I was not the initial
2
addressee.
3
with service estates, you know, the commission of
4
-- Committee of Adjustments may have been involved
5
in some of the other background on this as well,
6
and that's why Major Jared would be an actioned
7
addressee or c.c.'d on it.
I believe a lot of this was dealing
8
9
But I don't think Major Parkinson
was intentionally going out and providing the
10
family with false information, but at the same
11
time, I think that there were times where he
12
out-stepped, maybe, his boundaries.
13
Q.
So that's a picture of some
14
of the relationships and some of the issues arising
15
in connection with the assisting officer for Mr.
16
and Mrs. Fynes.
17
arising with respect to the assisting officer for
18
Ms. Hamilton-Tree, Second Lieutenant Brown.
19
I want to address now some issues
Were you aware -- or, we are aware
20
that on at least one visit by Ms. Hamilton-Tree to
21
the funeral home in preparation for the funeral and
22
in order to make certain decisions about the
23
funeral, she was accompanied by Second Lieutenant
24
Brown.
25
Are you aware of any instructions,
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cautions, warnings, guidance given to Second
2
Lieutenant Brown with respect to his role vis-à-vis
3
Ms. Hamilton-Tree and his role vis-à-vis funeral
4
arrangements?
5
A.
He would have -- to become
6
qualified as an assisting officer, the officers go
7
through a few-day or a week-long training program
8
where they are briefed on the other roles and
9
responsibilities, duties, et cetera, so he would
10
have received that training prior to being named by
11
the commanding officer to fill this role.
12
Suzanne Touchette put it
13
perfectly, you know, kind of at the end there, you
14
are there to provide assistance and support, but
15
you are not there to provide direction or make
16
decisions on the part of the family.
17
So it's not uncommon that an
18
assisting officer would attend a funeral home or
19
different locations with family members, provide
20
them with support required, but at no time was
21
Lieutenant Brown ever directed to speak on behalf
22
of the next of kin or become involved as a military
23
member.
24
25
Q.
58.
Let me ask you to open up Tab
And this is, again, an e-mail exchange. And I
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am looking now at the bottom.
2
from you confirming certain arrangements with
3
respect to the funeral.
4
The first e-mail is
The second e-mail is the one that
5
I am interested in -- sorry, Tab 58, that's the
6
second page.
7
one that precedes it and that is from Second
8
Lieutenant Brown to you, posing, or providing you
9
with response on behalf of Ms. Hamilton-Tree to
10
some of the issues and some of the arrangements
11
that you discuss in the first e-mail.
12
The e-mail I am interested in is the
And then at the bottom of the
13
page, we see a heading "Questions".
14
questions include:
And the
15
"Is Corporal Hillier's
16
transportation paid for?
17
Would Rebecca's
18
transportation be paid for
19
the interment in Victoria?
20
And what about guests?"[as
21
read]
22
Then on the next page:
23
"Was a note left behind at
24
the scene of the
25
incident?"[as read]
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Then:
2
"What is the release date of
3
the body?
4
a copy of the common-law
5
paperwork."[as read]
And Rebecca wants
6
Now, the response that you have is
7
-- sorry, you forward this to the chain of command,
8
starting with Lieutenant-Colonel Demers and
9
including Major Jared and Major Cadieu and Captain
10
Volstad.
And you say:
11
"Things are slowly starting
12
to work themselves out for
13
the event between the family
14
and Rebecca.
15
it a little easier on all of
16
us."[as read]
17
This will make
And you say:
18
"I will look into Adam's
19
questions at the bottom."[as
20
read]
21
Now, did you look into the
22
question of whether there was a suicide note left
23
or whether there was a note left at the scene of
24
the incident?
25
A.
I don't specifically remember
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contacting the military police and asking if a note
2
was left behind, no.
3
Q.
At Tab 85, we have a
4
communication from Major Parkinson to you, and the
5
first point is that -- that we have, it has to do
6
with the executor for inclusion in the adjutant
7
notes, and they give some information about Mr.
8
White.
9
Now, this is dated the 9th of
10
April, 2008.
This post-dates the discovery of the
11
will.
12
taken at this point about the will yet; am I right
13
about that, or about the executor?
But to your recollection, no action was
14
A.
There was some confusion with
15
regards to who was going to be the executor.
I
16
don't remember all of the detail, but somebody, I
17
believe, was named.
18
doing it or they were living in the United States
19
or, you know --
They didn't feel comfortable
20
Q.
Hawaii?
21
A.
-- Europe or somewhere else
22
in proximity, they didn't feel they were going to
23
be able to perform that duty, so there was some
24
discussion about who was going to be the actual
25
executor of the will, I believe.
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Q.
And that's the only
2
discussion about the will that you recall; am I
3
correct?
4
A.
Yes.
Once again, this is,
5
you know, once I had submitted the documents, the
6
regiment really had no role or part in providing
7
any guidance, direction or becoming involved with
8
the will itself.
9
Q.
And the second point is:
10
"Shaun and Sheila ask that
11
the truck, once released, not
12
be given to Rebecca."[as
13
read]
14
And this, as I understand, it
15
refers to a truck, to their status as beneficiaries
16
of the estate, and issues arose because Ms. Rebecca
17
Hamilton-Tree was a co-signer for the loan on the
18
jeep?
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
Now, was anything done by you
21
with respect to this dispute?
22
A.
No, I believe what I was
23
advised to do was let this play out in, you know,
24
as the will was processed or if it had to go to
25
court.
I believe that we retained possession of
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the jeep within regimental lines and didn't hand it
2
over to anybody until a final decision was made.
3
4
Q.
Finally, Major Parkinson
advises you:
5
"Note that Stuart's address
6
listed on the proof of death
7
certificate is wrong. It
8
should be the same as his
9
place of death.
I have
10
contacted Evergreen Memorial
11
Gardens and Cemetery in
12
regards to this discrepancy,
13
and they have forwarded
14
corrected copies.
15
point, whoever provided
16
Evergreen with the
17
information about his address
18
was incorrect, and he/she
19
should be informed as to the
20
requirement for accurate
21
information requirements on
22
legal documents."[as read]
23
24
As an AAR
Do you recall anything about this
particular dispute?
25
A.
No, nothing stands out. And
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reading this, we did not provide Evergreen, I do
2
not believe we provided Evergreen Memorial Home
3
with any information as to residence or place of
4
residence.
5
Rebecca as the next of kin when she went to the
6
funeral home.
That would have been completed by
7
Q.
I'd just briefly like to ask
8
you about your recollections or involvement in a
9
number of other issues related to the inventory of
10
Corporal Langridge's possessions.
11
Do you recall any disputes or
12
difficulties and complications arising about, first
13
of all, the taking of inventory of Stuart
14
Langridge's possessions?
15
A.
The Committee of Adjustment
16
was going through and doing the logging of the
17
items, the personal belongings.
18
I believe that one or two members
19
conducting the inspection were personal friends of
20
Stuart or Rebecca's.
21
Q.
Yes.
22
A.
When that was made known to
23
me, I informed Major Jared that there was
24
potentially a conflict of interest here and that it
25
should be sorted out as soon as possible.
And I
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believe that he removed anybody that had any direct
2
relation with either of the members from the
3
Committee of Adjustments at that time.
4
Q.
And do you recall whether
5
there were any disputes about or concerns about
6
missing items in the inventory while you were
7
adjutant?
8
A.
No.
9
Q.
All right.
10
Now, finally, I wanted to ask you
11
about your participation in investigations
12
conducted by the NIS, the National Investigation
13
Service, of the military police.
14
15
First of all, let me just clarify.
Did you have any role with respect to the Board of
16
Inquiry?
Which, I hasten to add, in case anybody
17
doesn't know, is totally different from the
18
military investigations.
19
the BOI at all?
20
A.
Were you involved with
Following the death, I made a
21
recommendation to my chain of command at 1 Brigade
22
Headquarters, the G1, that this was an extremely
23
complex case.
24
going to have to be accessed, and I didn't think
25
that anybody within the regiment's chain of command
Medical forms and medical files were
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should be involved in the Board of Inquiry, for
2
transparency, if nothing else, but it needed to be
3
a senior ranking officer, lieutenant-colonel or
4
above, who would be able to get access to it.
5
I recommended possibly a Class B warrants officer
6
that could come in and take this on full time
7
because it was a situation that somebody was not
8
going to be able to do this while maintaining a
9
full-time job elsewhere.
10
11
Q.
And
And do you know whether your
recommendation was followed?
12
A.
When I was interviewed by
13
the, at the Board of Inquiry, I was interviewed by
14
Major Bret Parlee, so, no, other decisions had been
15
made to assign him as the Chair, I believe, for the
16
Board of Inquiry.
17
Q.
I would like to talk to you
18
about your interviews with the military police. We
19
have in our documents, two documents that are said
20
to record the details of interviews conducted with
21
you.
22
2008, 1750 hours.
The first one is dated Saturday, March 15th,
23
It appears at Tab 38.
I am sorry, this isn't yours at
24
all.
This isn't yours at all.
25
by Sergeant Hiscock.
This is a statement
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2
Sorry, yes, you have a statement
in this as well.
3
So, I am sorry, the initial
4
statements are of Sergeant Hiscock, and that
5
continues -- and that continues down to Point I.
6
Then at Number 2:
7
"At about 1615 hours, 17
8
March '08, Master Corporal
9
Mahoney telephoned Captain
10
Lubiniecki, adjutant LdSH,
11
and learned --"[as read]
12
And we will talk about that.
13
Do you recall this telephone
14
conversation?
15
A.
No, I don't recall this phone
17
Q.
Okay.
18
Sergeant Hiscock says that --
19
sorry, was it Sergeant Mahoney, I think it was,
20
states that -- so Master Corporal Mahoney says that
21
she telephoned you at 1615 and in that
22
conversation, she learned that Corporal Langridge
23
is officially common law on paper:
16
conversation.
24
"However, he is aware that
25
Corporal Langridge and spouse
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had been separated for some
2
time."[as read]
3
Do you recall making that
4
statement; is this an accurate statement?
5
A.
I don't remember the phone
6
conversation, but looking at the documents -- and
7
if it's here, I am not disagreeing with the fact
8
that I may have had a phone conversation that
9
night.
And I would say that I guess this was open
10
to interpretation, the word "separated".
They
11
were, you know, physically separated, they were not
12
living together at that time, but neither one of
13
them had told me that the relationship was fully
14
over.
15
with a change in his marital status form which
16
would have removed her as a next of kin or as a
17
common-law spouse.
And Corporal Langridge had never provided me
18
Q.
All right.
Now, two days
19
later, you had a more formal interview with the
20
National Investigation Service, and this was
21
conducted by Master Corporal Ritco and Sergeant
22
Bigelow; do you recall the circumstances of the
23
interview?
24
25
A.
I had received a phone call
asking if I would be available to provide a
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statement.
I am not sure what was going on that
2
day, but it was determined that they were available
3
to come to my regiment's building, and I set up a
4
conference room where we were going to be able to
5
sit and have the interview.
6
It was conducted over the lunch
7
period, I believe, and lasted, you know, I can't
8
remember the exact duration of the interview.
9
Q.
It purports to be
10
approximately an hour's duration, commencing at
11
12:07 and being completed at 1310.
12
13
Was there any recording done of
this interview?
14
A.
I don't remember there being
15
any audio recording device.
16
recording device as it was in our regimental
17
conference room.
18
individuals who conducted the interview and asked
19
the questions.
20
sitting beside him was taking notes in his notepad.
21
There was no video
I don't know the name of the two
And then the other individual
Q.
When the interview was
22
complete, were you presented with any of the notes
23
or any synopsis of the notes for you to review?
24
A.
No.
25
Q.
Were you ever given a copy of
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the statement or a synopsis produced for you to
2
sign?
3
A.
No.
4
Q.
Specifically this document,
5
were you ever shown this document during the
6
material times; that is, in 2007 -- 2008, March?
7
A.
No.
8
Q.
So I'd like to turn your
9
attention back to this document because I would
10
like to ask you whether, to your mind, it is an
11
accurate account of information that you gave or an
12
inaccurate account.
13
I would like you to point them out.
And if there are inaccuracies,
14
A.
Do you have the tab for that?
15
Q.
Fifty-three.
16
A.
There was, paragraph
17
1-Charlie, a missed, a mislabelled date.
18
19
Q.
be sometime in June '07?
20
21
So the 27th July '07 should
A.
It should have been the 25th
Q.
Did you have a calendar or
of June.
22
23
datebook available to you during this interview?
24
Did you have any notes at all to which you could
25
refer during this interview?
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A.
Yes.
2
Q.
What would you have had?
3
A.
Probably a notebook or the
4
notes that I had been keeping through the process
5
since the time of death.
6
similar to this, a document that was somewhat
7
similar.
8
9
Do you know what happened to
A.
No.
It would have been
handwritten in, like I say, in one of my notebooks.
12
13
Q.
that document?
10
11
So it would be something
Q.
So we have identified what
you consider to be an error in 1-C.
14
Can you continue and tell me if
15
there is anything else that you consider to be
16
incorrect?
17
A.
In paragraph echo, it talks
18
about the RSM and adjutant compiling the schedule
19
of tasks.
20
leave that day, and the RSM compiled it in
21
conjunction with the medical officer and then
22
presented it to the CO for authority.
23
Q.
We spoke to this on length.
I was on
So your view is that it's
24
incorrect to say that you participated with the RSM
25
in compiling the schedule of tasks?
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A.
Yes.
2
Q.
Let me turn your attention to
3
1-D before we go further.
4
It says:
5
"After the first attempted
6
suicide, Corporal Langridge
7
was admitted to Edgewood, a
8
patient rehabilitation
9
clinic."[as read]
10
Nanaimo, it should be, BC:
11
"However, was only there for
12
approximately two to seven
13
days, after which time he
14
removed himself from this
15
facility.
16
Corporal Langridge admitted
17
himself into the Alberta
18
health centre and was there
19
for approximately 30 days.
20
After completing his time at
21
the health centre, Corporal
22
Langridge was scheduled to
23
partake in a rehabilitation
24
clinic in Ontario, however,
25
was denied by the military
In February '08,
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medical community due to his
2
lack of conviction at
3
Edgewood and subsequent AA
4
meetings.
5
course in Ontario would have
6
been $50,000."[as read]
The cost of the
7
Is that accurate?
8
A.
9
I believe there is another
document that supports that.
So this was not me
10
saying that the regiment disallowed him to attend
11
the treatment.
12
from one of the medical staff saying 'we do not
13
support him attending a second rehabilitation
14
course until he proves that he can attend scheduled
15
AA meetings'.
16
these meetings now and he checked himself out early
17
last time, I think they saw that it would be
18
potential -- another opportunity where he would
19
either check himself out or just not attend.
This was an e-mail that I had seen
Based on the fact that he skips
20
21
So that is accurate from the
information that I had received up to that point.
22
23
Q.
terms of the cost of $50,000, to your knowledge?
24
25
And is it also accurate in
A.
I think that's also included
in that e-mail.
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2
Q.
Have you seen that e-mail
A.
I saw it, I believe, when you
recently?
3
4
and I sat in Edmonton.
5
time.
6
7
10
Q.
I am trying to recall which
A.
I am not sure if it's in this
e-mail.
8
9
It was available at that
package, but I believe we saw it in Edmonton
together.
11
Q.
Okay.
May I ask you this,
12
Major, if we do come up with a document that
13
corresponds to that description, if I send it to
14
you, would you confirm or deny whether that's the
15
document that you are referring to?
16
A.
Most certainly.
17
Q.
And if you still retain any
18
of the documents, I don't think we left you with
19
the documents, but if, to the extent that you can
20
describe it better, would you communicate through
21
your lawyers to me as to --
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
-- that description?
24
Paragraph F, I'm sorry --
25
paragraph E we talked about.
Paragraph F; correct?
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A.
This was, yeah, a bit of a
2
synopsis for what he was doing at the time.
3
believe that he was working within the defaulters
4
room vice the recce units.
5
Q.
In, let's look at paragraph
6
G; is that correct, 12 March '08, Corporal
7
Langridge --
8
9
A.
I
Yes, I believe we had it
documented as the 12th and the 13th he was there.
10
Q.
Okay.
11
And then H:
12
"13th March '08, Captain
13
Lubiniecki received telephone
14
call from Corporal
15
Langridge's common-law wife,
16
Rebecca Hamilton-Tree. She
17
stated the following:"[as
18
read]
19
It recites:
20
"While Corporal Langridge was
21
performing his 30-day stay at
22
the Alberta medical centre,
23
he spent two paycheques, and
24
rent for their townhouse was
25
late.
Ms. Hamilton-Tree
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indicated she didn't want to
2
continue with the
3
relationship, therefore, LdSH
4
and Corporal Langridge's
5
mother had obtained all of
6
his F&E, which was secured at
7
the LdSH CQ."[as read]
8
Is that correct?
9
A.
Yeah, on my document, I had
10
-- had receiving the phone call from her, that,
11
while he was still in the hospital.
12
receiving the phone call following his release.
13
am talking about the 30-day stay.
14
This has me
I
Now, you know, once again, I have
15
created my document off of my best memory up to
16
this point, so the Tab 18 or Document 18 that we
17
are referring to here as well, might not be
18
perfectly lined up, so the information is generally
19
correct there, yes.
20
Q.
Point sub 2 of information
21
said to have been relayed to you by Ms.
22
Hamilton-Tree says:
23
"Ms. Hamilton-Tree was
24
concerned about the status of
25
her and Corporal Langridge's
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common-law status.
2
NSF checks and late payments
3
on his jeep, which she
4
co-signed for, she wanted to
5
know if the military would
6
give her power of
7
attorney."[as read]
8
Is that correct?
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Three:
Due to
11
"She would be looking at a
12
restraining order against
13
Corporal Langridge as she
14
didn't see him anymore."[as
15
read]
16
Is that correct?
17
A.
I think it's not incorrect,
18
it's not complete.
We had talked about there being
19
a restraining order, she had asked if the military
20
was able to place a restraining order on Corporal
21
Langridge.
22
do that but had provided her with information as to
23
'contact a friend of the regiment who is a lawyer,
24
and she would be able to provide you more
25
information, or contact the padre'.
I had informed her, no, that we don't
So it's, what
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is here is correct but maybe not -- some of it was
2
left out.
3
Q.
Let's look at Point I:
4
"Captain Lubiniecki explained
5
to Ms. Hamilton-Tree that he
6
could provide her with the
7
padre or a lawyer that the
8
unit uses.
9
Corporal Langridge was made
10
aware of the phone call and
11
indicated that they were
12
separated."[as read]
13
Was that -- is that part of it
14
At this time,
correct?
15
A.
I guess it's, you know, once
16
again, up to interpretation.
You know, if you are
17
taking hand notes and, or if I use the word
18
"separated", it can come across in two different
19
meanings to two different people.
20
identified to me that they needed a break from each
21
other, so maybe I didn't explain myself well enough
22
when I was giving the information here.
23
misused the word "separated" or perhaps the word
24
was taken out of context and substituted for "they
25
were taking a break from each other" and
So they had both
Perhaps I
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"separated" was inserted into the document.
2
3
Q.
So let me just go back one
removed, though.
4
Is it accurate that Corporal
5
Langridge was made aware of the phone call -- and,
6
I take it, by you -- and had a response to it?
7
A.
Yeah, once again, we had
8
discussed this previously where following his time
9
at the 30-day internment -- 30-day stay at the
10
hospital, I had brought him up to my office and
11
explained to him that she needed a break from him,
12
et cetera, et cetera, and he had agreed to give her
13
the space to be able to work through this.
14
Q.
And the timeline is generally
15
correct, though, it's 13th or 14th, either when he
16
was still in -- well, it couldn't have been while
17
he was in the Royal Alexandra Hospital.
18
have had to have been when he was out of the
19
hospital.
20
the, or more close to the time that he left the
21
Alberta Hospital?
It would
Or was it, do you think, after he left
22
A.
This is where it starts to
23
blur together for me.
This is, you know, a period
24
of one week that we are discussing.
25
he was in and out of so many hospitals and that we
The fact that
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had had several conversations in my office in the
2
past, like I said, what I put down in this document
3
here was the best timeline that I could come up
4
with of documents that I had access to, as well as
5
my memory.
6
If it's listed here that these are
7
the days, then this is two or three days after the
8
death that I was sitting with them.
9
had access to my notes.
10
I would have
Now, I am now four years after the
11
fact generating a timeline for myself, so I would
12
probably err on caution and say that the dates that
13
I have given in here would be more reflective and
14
the dates that I have over here may be more
15
general, within 48 to 72 hours, best guess.
16
17
Q.
And the final notation in Sub
Point I is:
18
"At this time, Corporal
19
Langridge further indicated
20
his desire to be a soldier
21
and wished to have his
22
restrictions lessened."[as
23
read]
24
25
Was that a conversation that
happened in the context of the other conversation
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about Ms. Hamilton-Tree?
2
A.
Yes, this is, we had
3
discussed this as well where I had talked to him
4
that maybe, prior to the weekend, and he had said,
5
you know, 'if I can keep sticking to this plan, can
6
we extend some of the timings maybe two hours to
7
four hours', et cetera, so, yes, that's accurate.
8
Q.
I don't think there is any
9
issues with the rest of this document.
It notes at
10
the end that Captain Lubiniecki provided paperwork
11
to Master Corporal Ritco; is that the documentation
12
that follows this page?
13
A.
This is something that I have
14
struggled with for a while.
15
exactly what documentation I gave to him. I can
16
only assume that it was this Significant Incident
17
Report that's listed here that would have had all
18
of the structure outlined in it, key dates, the
19
events, and the information that we pushed up to
20
Ottawa which would have gone into their
21
investigation.
22
Q.
I don't remember
And just finally, the first
23
document is a Significant Incident Report, and in
24
the body of the report, we find a transcription of
25
the conditions that the member was under.
I might
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as well read this to you:
2
"At approximately 1513, 5
3
March 08, the chain of
4
command was informed that a
5
soldier committed suicide at
6
CFB Edmonton single quarters.
7
The member was residing in
8
the regimental duty centre
9
under his own admittance in
10
conjunction with regimental
11
direction.
12
allocated a room in the
13
single quarters but had been
14
using it for storage vice as
15
a residence.
16
missed a time at the
17
regimental duty centre, and
18
the duty staff were
19
dispatched to locate the
20
member.
21
in single quarters.
22
military police were
23
informed, as was the
24
regimental chain of command,
25
by the duty staff."[as read]
He had been
The member had
He was found hanging
The
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Just stopping there, you
2
differentiate between where Corporal Langridge was
3
residing as being the duty centre as opposed to the
4
room.
5
was the duty centre and that the shacks were used
6
for storage of his materials or his effects?
So your understanding was that his residence
7
A.
That was my understanding, of
8
course, of the conditions below as discussed with
9
the RSM:
10
"He will live in the
11
regimental duty centre or in
12
the defaulters room here at
13
Charlie 1."[as read]
14
That room is within the duty
15
centre, so that's why it would appear in the text
16
above as well.
17
18
Q.
All right, and you then set
out the conditions, and you said:
19
"The following are the
20
conditions the member was
21
abiding to under his own
22
admission as well as
23
direction from the
24
regiment."[as read]
25
I think we covered this before,
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the basis for your belief that this was under his
2
own admission as well as the direction of the
3
regiment.
4
5
And there follow a number of
restrictions.
6
Can you tell me where these came
7
from?
Would this have been -- well, where would
8
you have taken the conditions that we find here?
9
A.
I don't understand the
10
question.
This was the information that we
11
discussed previously where Dr. Hannah had provided
12
three guidelines that he would like the regiment to
13
work with, the member to adhere to.
14
the day that I was on leave, the 7th of March, chat
15
with Dr. Hannah via e-mail or phone, came up with
16
this list, provided it back to Dr. Hannah on the
17
Monday, but over the weekend, it was put in place
18
with Captain Volstad and stated that 'we have taken
19
measures to maintain phone contact as well as watch
20
over him for the weekend'.
21
Q.
The RSM, on
The reason I am asking, sir,
22
is Point C-3 -- well, first of all, the numbering
23
is somewhat different in this document from the
24
e-mail document that we looked at before. But more
25
significantly, paragraph C-3, you originally -- or
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C-4, you originally had "he will report to the duty
2
officer every hour on the hour", and then there is
3
an insertion, "2", with your initials.
4
Do you know what that's about?
5
A.
Do you have the tab for the
Q.
For the e-mail, yes, let me
A.
The one between Dr. Hannah
6
original?
7
8
find it for you.
9
10
and the RSM.
11
I believe this was a typo on my
12
part when I drafted this, so when I was turning it
13
in to the MPs, I noticed that I had said "every
14
hour", whereas, in fact, it was every two hours. So
15
I think I amended it and initialled it so that they
16
had the up-to-date information.
17
Q.
Okay.
18
My colleague informs me that I may
19
have misled you on the record when I said that the
20
interview with Sergeant Mahoney was on the 15th,
21
Master Corporal Mahoney, was on the 15th.
22
it wasn't.
23
same day as you spoke with the other military
24
police, general -- I don't think anything turns on
25
it, but I was looking at the top of the sheet and
In fact,
The phone call was on the 17th, the
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it said 15th of March and, in fact, it was the 17th
2
of March.
3
In any event, you have been more
4
than patient with me, Major Lubiniecki.
5
been very candid, and I thank you very much.
6
THE CHAIRPERSON:
You have
Do either
7
counsel need five minutes or a break, or should we
8
carry on?
9
10
THE WITNESS:
Is it possible, sir,
for five minutes, or two minutes, even?
11
THE CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely.
In
12
case there is lineups, we will take five minutes, I
13
am going to remain in the room so everybody can
14
please move about.
Thank you.
15
MR. FREIMAN:
I would just like it
16
noted for the record that I was exactly an hour.
17
--- Upon recess at 3:31 p.m.
18
--- Upon resuming at 3:37 p.m.
19
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Colonel Drapeau.
20
COLONEL DRAPEAU:
Mr. Chair.
21
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COLONEL DRAPEAU:
22
Q.
23
Lubiniecki.
24
to be over soon.
25
Good afternoon, Major
It's been a long day, but we are going
When you were in Afghanistan the
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first tour, what was your job there?
2
3
A.
I was the squadron battle
Q.
Okay.
captain.
4
And you knew -- you've
5
testified that you knew Corporal Langridge, you'd
6
met with him, you crossed at the regimental
7
function or whatever it was, but you had a general
8
knowledge of him.
9
10
Did you ever sit down with him and
had a discussion as an officer-NCO type of thing?
11
A.
No, not at that point in our
12
careers, we had never been a direct report from him
13
to myself.
14
Q.
So you're a commissioned
15
officer in the regiment, he was one of the soldiers
16
of the regiment and that was it, you just --
17
A.
Well, I think we are a little
18
different in the armoured corp than a lot of the
19
other trades or branches within the Armed Forces.
20
We live and operate, live and die in
21
four-man-vehicle crews, so the officers get to know
22
their soldiers very well.
23
no standoffish relation or inability for a soldier
24
to approach an officer and have a discussion with
25
them.
So I would say there was
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I think probably the complete
2
opposite.
Our regiment is one where that open
3
dialogue and relations is encouraged because we
4
have such a dependence on one another when we are
5
in the field or on operations to live in that
6
four-man organization and support one another.
7
Q.
So you would agree with me
8
it's a very close-knit group, and you don't
9
necessarily have to be within a chain of command to
10
get to know of someone?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
And as a result of it, you
13
would feel quite free to be discussing their
14
personalities, their strength or whatever, of any
15
man within -- a person or NCOs -- within the
16
regiment too?
17
18
A.
generalization, but, for the most part, yes.
19
20
Q.
Tighter than what you would
find in most other combat units?
21
22
I think that's a
A.
Yeah, I would say absolutely
infantry is probably the tightest, yes.
23
Q.
What was your relationship,
24
your day-to-day relationship with the RSM?
When
25
were you physically in the LdSH headquarters as
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opposed to the RSM?
2
A.
My office was right next door
3
to the commanding officer's.
4
officer's office, where he goes through my office
5
to get to his, the secretary's office, and then one
6
door down the hall is where the RSM resides.
7
Q.
And what type of relationship
8
would you have with the RSM?
9
informally on a regular basis?
10
A.
The commanding
Meet him formally or
A bit of both.
He has earned
11
the respect from all officers.
12
RSM or Mister, twice his rank, sought after for
13
advice, especially the junior leaders or officers,
14
based on his experiences, but a very open dialogue
15
between us.
16
Q.
He is addressed as
Would it be fair for me to
17
say you have a mutual relationship?
I mean, an
18
adjutant is a very senior and a very influential
19
position into an army regiment.
20
A.
Yes.
21
Q.
As would be an RSM?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
And the two of you would be
24
communicating regularly face-to-face?
25
A.
It somewhat comes down to
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personalities.
It's easier to deal with some
2
people where you find excuses to deal with people
3
more so than others if you have a strong
4
relationship or something very much in common.
5
At the same time, yes, I had no
6
problem walking into his office and sitting down
7
and discussing a hockey game or talking about a
8
soldier.
9
Q.
And vice versa?
10
A.
Yes.
11
Q.
And your communication would
12
not only be e-mail; in fact, e-mail would be the
13
exception rather than the rule?
14
A.
Normally, we try to reserve
15
e-mail for keeping a log or a paper trail of
16
events, and usually, it's preceded by a phone call
17
or a face-to-face conversation.
18
Q.
And fair for me to say that
19
RSM would come and pick your brain, so to speak,
20
about an issue before discussing same with a
21
commanding officer?
22
A.
No.
Well, within his rights
23
can speak directly to the CO, he is the COs
24
right-hand man.
25
a captain filling one of the big-three positions
At the end of the day, I was only
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for captains within the regiment.
2
uncommon for the RSM to walk through the adjutant's
3
office, close the door and sit and discuss matters
4
with the CO.
5
Q.
But it's not
But it would also not be
6
uncommon that you would be part of the inner
7
sanctum, the commanding officer, the RSM and
8
yourself would have a tete-a-tete?
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
And you are not going to keep
11
anything away from the commanding officer?
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
So your inner thoughts as to
14
a specific situation, and vice versa, you would
15
keep others informed.
16
RSM and the commanding officer?
Each other, I mean. You, the
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
During your testimony, there
19
was a -- and we saw the form at Tab 13, a drug
20
offence notification.
21
result of soldiers who were deployable in
22
Afghanistan to go through a mandatory urine
23
testing; correct?
And that took place as a
24
A.
Yes.
25
Q.
Was that the first time that
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was done in your unit?
2
A.
No.
3
Q.
What would be the frequency
4
of these kind of testing?
5
A.
When we were originally
6
deployed to Afghanistan in 2006, my tank squadron
7
was sent on short notice.
8
deployed.
9
prior to our deployment, nor the task force that we
Within 30 days, we
I can't remember if we did drug testing
10
joined, if drug testing was conducted prior to
11
their deployment.
12
I saw a document that outlined
13
from the commander of the army his policy on drug
14
testing, so, in there, it would be directed as to
15
who would be tested and when that policy would come
16
into effect.
17
18
Q.
any specific date.
19
20
A.
I am not going to hold you to
That is why I am asking.
It would have started in
either 2006, 2007.
21
Q.
Before.
22
A.
Every soldier would be tested
23
a minimum of one time, possibly two, in the workup
24
six-month period before he deployed.
25
Q.
And you have been with the
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regiment since 2000, if I remember correctly?
2
3
A.
Yes, short nine-month stint
Q.
So over that time, there had
away.
4
5
been other occasion where urine testing would have
6
been done?
7
A.
Yes.
8
Q.
If Corporal Langridge had
9
10
used cocaine before, or any other type of illicit
drugs, it would be picked up; right?
11
12
A.
of the organization being tested.
13
14
Q.
A.
I don't understand the
Q.
Potentially having been urine
question.
17
18
But he had served in Bosnia,
he had served in Afghanistan before?
15
16
If he was specifically part
tested before these deployments?
19
A.
Like I said, we can refer to
20
the document that outlines what date the commander
21
of the army put a safety sensitive drug testing
22
policy into effect.
23
2006 focus and beyond.
24
25
I believe it was Afghanistan
So when I deployed to Kabul in
2004, 2005, I don't remember being drug tested
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then, and I don't remember stories of soldiers
2
being drug tested prior to deployment to Bosnia.
3
Q.
Well, what did you do, then,
4
when you had soldiers who were on drugs prior to
5
urine testing?
6
A.
I am not sure.
7
Q.
As an officer, as a leader of
8
men that you called in very dangerous, perilous
9
conditions deploying to Kabul, Bosnia, did you have
10
to rely upon your sense of observations in
11
disciplines, interpretation of men and --
12
A.
I can assume so.
I am not
13
sure of the question or, to be honest, how to
14
answer that.
15
Q.
The question to you: If
16
somebody had been abusing drugs then, you and your
17
forefathers would have had means to detect and to
18
deal with it before providing this particular
19
soldier with the weapons and with a task?
20
A.
Possibly, possibly some of
21
these substance abusers are so good at hiding it
22
that you wouldn't be able to determine it.
23
Q.
Do you know of any discipline
24
problem that Stuart Langridge had and you became
25
aware of it on his file as captain adjutant of
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prior usage or prior drugs, what did you call this
2
form, offence notifications?
3
A.
No, as I previously stated,
4
up until the time of the positive result, there had
5
been no administrative or disciplinary --
6
Q.
That was the first time, as
8
A.
As far as I know, yes.
9
Q.
Could you go to Tab 26,
7
far as you know?
10
please.
No, I have answered this question, so I am
11
going to go to the next.
12
When the drug notification,
13
offence notification was given to Corporal
14
Langridge, was he alone in the regiment to have
15
tested positive?
16
A.
No, typically, we find from
17
zero to 3, sort of an average of soldiers that
18
would test positive during one of these testings.
19
Q.
How many?
20
A.
Average, zero to 3.
21
At that time, at the -- as the
22
adjutant, and over the course of that year, I
23
believe I had approximately 10 to 20 files of
24
soldiers that committed drug offences that I was
25
working on.
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2
3
Q.
If you could turn to Tab 23.
This letter was signed by your then commanding
officer, Colonel Demers.
4
Did you draft this?
5
A.
6
file number has my drafting signature behind it.
7
8
As an adjutant, yes. The top
Q.
So when we see "adjutant"
after a file number, it comes from your pen?
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
In the last few weeks of his
11
life, Stuart was an employee, using your words, in
12
a Kit Shop?
13
A.
No.
14
Q.
Where was he employed at?
15
A.
Within the duty centre
16
stables, NCO, working for the RSM.
17
18
Q.
At no time he was employed in
A.
I believe he was, Mr. Freiman
the Kit Shop?
19
20
had pointed out he was applied at the kit shop for
21
a period of time but then had been moved out and,
22
into the stables.
23
Q.
What is a kit shop?
24
A.
Within the regiment, we have
25
a place where soldiers are able to go to purchase
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equipment, anything from boots to gloves and knives
2
down to, at that time, I believe the kit shop sold
3
cigarettes, tobacco and junk food as well.
4
5
Q.
And what kind of soldier
would be in the kit shop, soldiers, civilians?
6
A.
Primarily soldiers, you know,
7
soldier breaks his leg and is not able to deploy on
8
exercise or, you know, soldiers that, you know,
9
might be waiting to be transferred to another trade
10
if they had submitted a voluntary request for
11
another trade, individuals that were, I guess, best
12
suited or unable to fulfil all their other duties
13
within the regiment.
14
Q.
Would an employment in the
15
kit shop be seen as a career-advancing mood that
16
somebody would be proud of?
17
18
A.
I don't think anybody strives
to work in the kit shop, no.
19
Q.
So it's a temporary
21
A.
Temporary employment, yes.
22
Q.
A couple of times, the terms
20
employment?
23
"suicide watch" came and, of course, it's
24
throughout the documentation that we have been
25
given access to.
And there seemed to be, in my
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words, analogy to the very use of the term itself,
2
and you seem to be having this allergy to it
3
because your response to it, is this suicide watch,
4
no, it's not.
5
vibes?
Am I right; am I getting the right
6
A.
Yes.
7
Q.
Okay.
8
Is it allergy to the
term or to what the term stands for?
9
A.
I think probably both.
10
Q.
Both.
11
A.
Because I would like to think
And why is that?
12
that if the medical community released an
13
individual, whether he is in the military or a
14
civilian, if somebody is released from care, I
15
would like to believe that they have done their
16
assessment.
17
case, and they have determined through their
18
process, whatever process that might be, that the
19
individual is not a risk to himself.
20
the case, then why would we call it a suicide
21
watch?
22
community is saying to us?
23
'Provide a suicide watch for this member', you
24
know, I think that would be completely different
25
for somebody to be released from medical care, and
They are the professionals in this
So if that's
Why would we go against what the medical
If they said to us,
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then for us to put a title on that would be
2
ridiculous.
3
Q.
But am I to conclude it's
4
just against your grain to have, to have a suicide
5
watch for anyone?
6
A.
No.
We provide watches for
7
different soldiers for different reasons.
8
soldier that is picked up by the military police
9
for, you know, being intoxicated and thrown into
10
the cells on base will receive a call, and if we
11
choose to leave him in there for a prolonged period
12
and not have a custody review officer go to that
13
location and take control of him, we have to
14
provide a watch over him for his duration of stay.
15
So soldiers would be tasked to go and stand or sit
16
outside of the cell and watch him until a point
17
that he is sober and is able to be released.
18
Q.
A
So you are not discounting
19
that under special conditions it could be a suicide
20
watch?
21
22
A.
labelled a suicide watch or --
23
24
I don't know if this is
Q.
Or watching over somebody's
health or somebody's safety?
25
A.
Yeah, if you are taking care
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of somebody, sure.
2
Q.
So if you are in Kabul in a
3
bitowac (ph) and there is no medical staff around,
4
there is somebody you feel, as a leader, is going
5
to do harm to himself, you would organize a watch
6
of some sort, and you would have no difficulty with
7
it?
8
9
A.
No, I would have no
difficulty providing the care of an individual
10
through my own means until such a time that I was
11
able to get him to professional, in this case a
12
medical professional, who could do a proper
13
assessment and give feedback.
14
Q.
In the e-mails, some of them
15
that we have reviewed during your testimony, there
16
is an awful lot of traffic back and forth with 1
17
Field Ambulance addressed to you back and forth;
18
correct?
19
A.
I believe at that time, I
20
guess two parts.
If it's the Field Ambulance, then
21
it would be Dr. Hannah, I believe, or the brigade
22
surgeon, Patton, who was employed as part of the
23
field down but was the brigade surgeon, so it was
24
not dealing with the field down as much as it was
25
dealing with the brigade surgeon.
If it was
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dealing with the CDU, then, yes, they are the care
2
delivery unit for our regiment.
3
allocated a specific care delivery unit, and that's
4
who I would have primary contact with.
5
Q.
Each unit is
And what type of contact did
6
you have with your designated medical care provider
7
at that 1 Field or that base surgeon?
8
A.
I am not sure I understand
Q.
How often, how frequent, how
9
the question.
10
11
intense you would be dealing with your contact or
12
your assigned doctor at the field hospital,
13
case-to-case basis or --
14
A.
Case-by-case basis, yes.
15
Q.
And you would feel quite at
16
ease to pick up the phone and say, 'What about this
17
situation or this individual?'
18
A.
Yes.
19
Q.
And likewise?
20
A.
No.
I think throughout the
21
day, we have sort of shown that there was less
22
information being pressed our way vice the amount
23
of questions being pushed from us to them.
24
25
Q.
And concerning Corporal
Langridge, did you have those constant exchange
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with the medical staff as to his whereabouts, his
2
health, his diagnostic or prognostic or whatever?
3
A.
No.
We made numerous
4
attempts to get as much information as we could
5
from them.
6
the majority of the time, we were met with not so
7
much resistance as policy that prevented us from
8
being brought fully aware as to possibly the best
9
care or the ongoing treatment that he was
10
And, you know, as I mentioned earlier,
undergoing.
11
Q.
Just before lunch, you had an
12
exchange which I would -- I found troubling and
13
hurtful where you noted that, to use your word,
14
that you opined that Stuart's mother was leaving
15
but she didn't stop loving her son despite this.
16
My question for you, and just to
17
set the record straight:
How many consultation,
18
communication or face-to-face meeting did you have
19
with Mrs. Fynes up until that time?
20
A.
None.
21
Q.
Have you ever met her before?
22
A.
Not until the, not until the
Q.
So at that time, that
23
funeral.
24
25
communication was done, and you felt that she -- at
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least you understood because you said she was
2
leaving, and she nevertheless didn't stop loving
3
her son.
What was that based on?
4
A.
I guess take a look at the
5
last four years, and she hasn't given up on her
6
son, so what would cause me anything to believe
7
that just because somebody needs to take some time
8
from a situation that they are dealing with or is
9
faced with, that's not common?
Or, once again,
10
nobody prepares for this.
I don't think parents
11
are taught how to deal with problems that their
12
children go through.
13
Q.
The comment I am alluding to
14
is you said that Rebecca was leaving. I have no
15
problem with that, but you also said his mother was
16
leaving.
17
taken as an expression of unlove, the fact that
18
they were leaving for their own set of reasons.
19
Why would you say or have the opinion that Mrs.
20
Fynes was leaving her son, departing?
21
A.
And neither of the cases, that should be
The padre who had been
22
working with her, and I believe at the time of the
23
collection of her personal effects, had briefed me
24
that she had made these comments and cut her trip
25
short and had left.
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Q.
2
firsthand knowledge.
3
A.
So you weren't talking from
You had no knowledge of it?
That's right.
As I stated
4
this morning, this was secondhand.
5
padre to me and, you know, this was my
6
interpretation of it.
7
Q.
It was from the
I could bring your attention
8
to Tab 36.
In fact, why don't we just go there.
9
And I just want to draw your attention to the very
10
last line of the e-mail dated Friday, the 7th of
11
March, at 15:35, from RSM Ross.
12
Can you read just this last line?
13
A.
On the first page?
14
Q.
Um-hmm.
15
A.
"Along with this are my
16
direction and restrictions."[as read]
17
Q.
18
simple:
19
RSM?
My question to you, fairly
Can a corporal ignore the direction of an
20
A.
The corporal wasn't, as I
21
explained before, Corporal Langridge wasn't
22
charged.
23
was gone over this list of criteria, was explained
24
the concerns of the medical community, the three
25
points listed by Dr. Hannah, and voluntarily
He was, to my understanding, sat down and
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accepted these conditions.
2
Q.
I accept all of that. I have
3
no difficulty with that.
4
And I know he hasn't been charged, but now he has
5
been imposed by the RSM, which says, 'These are my
6
directions and my instruction'.
7
follow that, then would he not be disobeying a
8
lawful command and be charged accordingly?
9
not, why not?
10
A.
That's not my question.
If he were not to
And, if
At the end of the day, the
11
RSM doesn't provide the, or have the authority to
12
make the decisions.
13
final authority would have rested with the
14
commanding officer.
15
saying, a corporal speaking to a chief warrant
16
officer and, you know, possibly the concern that a
17
corporal would not have the confidence to speak out
18
or disagree with what was being explained to him. I
19
wasn't there, and I am not sure if that was the
20
case.
21
this, and if this was presented in the proper
22
manner, that it would be seen as a positive action
23
being taken by a regiment vice a punishment.
I understand what you are
I would like to believe that looking at
24
25
This would have come from, the
Q.
But unless it says, you
haven't answered my question.
If this is a
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direction given by an RSMA, a lawful direction, and
2
if it's not followed by the person, the recipient
3
of it, will the recipient potentially be charged,
4
or can he just ignore it?
5
6
A.
Well, if he disagreed to this
Q.
He could disagree all he
at the beginning?
7
8
wants, but if he ignores it and doesn't do as he
9
was told.
10
A.
If he decided as he did and
11
then said, 'I will not adhere to this', and he
12
chose to ignore it, yes, there is the possibility
13
that he could have been charged.
14
if we take a look at the past eight months leading
15
up to this, he had never been charged for AWOL or
16
any other disciplinary matters.
17
measures that were taken with him were to provide
18
support and treatment, and I think the concept of
19
charging him never really crossed anybody's mind
20
because it would have been seen as having a worse
21
effect on him than trying to work with him.
22
Q.
However, I think
The steps and
I want to jump forward to the
23
day of the funeral, and you said that you spent six
24
hours agonizing over what the eulogy that you would
25
deliver in the funeral would basically consist of;
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that's right?
2
A.
3
generalization.
4
time preparing, yes.
5
Q.
It may have been a
I spent a considerable amount of
And according to my
6
definition, a eulogy is to show praise and honour
7
to the deceased.
8
not?
9
That's the purpose of it; is it
A.
I saw it as an opportunity to
10
remember the individual for being a great soldier,
11
yes.
12
Q.
But you said your thoughts,
13
your thought processes at the time, and I copied
14
down the words, that "he lacked integrity, he was a
15
drug addict, he turned his back on the regiment";
16
that's what you said?
17
A.
Yes.
18
Q.
I didn't hear words from you
19
saying he was also a veteran.
20
soldier that served his company very honourably in
21
two theatres?
22
A.
He was also a
I did say that.
I said, the
23
beginning of my speech or eulogy said, 'Let's not
24
remember Stuart for the difficult time he was
25
experiencing or what he was going through at this
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time.
Let's remember Stuart for being a soldier
2
that we served with in Afghanistan, that had
3
completed on exercise, Mountainman that we had
4
laughed and joked about, spent afternoons on
5
sports'.
6
points of his life, but I think it would have been
7
completely absurd to every other soldier sitting in
8
that church at that time to stand in front of them
9
and say that this was a soldier without fault or a
So, yes, I did highlight the strong
10
soldier that was at his best or on top of his game.
11
So I think that the honesty that was provided at
12
that time was extremely respectful, but I think it
13
was honest and had touched everybody, soldiers and
14
family.
15
of times, soldiers are closer with soldiers than we
16
are with our own families.
17
turn to in a time of need, and it's not going to be
18
my siblings.
19
time and time again that --
And to be honest with you, you know, a lot
I look at who I would
It would be my peers who have proven
20
THE CHAIRPERSON:
I am going to
21
help you out here a bit.
22
issue of eulogy at this stage is relevant.
23
24
I don't know that the
COLONEL DRAPEAU:
I am coming to a
point, Mr. Chair.
25
THE WITNESS:
I am fine, sir.
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BY COLONEL DRAPEAU:
2
Q.
My point was:
Did you have
3
the same frame of mind as you said that's the way
4
you saw Stuart at the time he was given those
5
restrictions and serving within the duty centre?
6
Was that the way you looked at him?
7
A.
I saw this as a means at, the
8
regiment was once again -- you know, with 10 per
9
cent of the information available from the medical
10
community, a demand or a request that the regiment
11
take responsibility for him, I saw this as one of
12
the only options that we had available to us to
13
provide some support to him.
14
alternative to say, 'No, thank you, medical
15
community.
16
points here.
17
and responsibility for him, and let's just let him
18
go for the weekend'.
19
we had?
20
didn't do everything properly, maybe we didn't do
21
everything perfectly.
22
are some things that everybody would change about
23
this but, at the end of the day, hand on heart, I
24
can look myself in the mirror every morning and say
25
that I did everything that I could for this
What was the
We don't agree with your three policy
We are not prepared to take ownership
What is the alternative that
And I come back to the fact that maybe we
Looking back, maybe there
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individual, and my regiment provided outstanding
2
support for him with the information that we had
3
and the knowledge and training that we had.
4
So the soldier was always at the
5
forefront, and his welfare was always at the
6
forefront.
7
jobs or was this the right thing to do, I don't
8
know what were the alternatives.
9
what we did was in his best interest.
10
Q.
So a discussion of us not doing our
And like I say,
Is it possible that he was,
11
he might have been using drugs but, instead of
12
calling them drug addicts, he could have been
13
suffering PTSD, some form of occupational stress
14
injury brought upon by his service, possible?
15
A.
16
professional, so it's always possible.
17
there could be any number of things that could
18
cause PTSD or lead to substance abuse.
19
leave that for the medical community to be able to
20
testify about.
21
Q.
I am not, I am not a medical
Of course,
I would
To a question that was asked
22
of you whether or not you looked at the issue of
23
the suicide note because that was one of the
24
actions required of you, and if I copied it down
25
properly, your answer to that is, "I do not
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remember.
I did not contact the military police";
2
correct, that was your response considering the
3
suicide note?
4
A.
Yes.
5
Q.
So leave the military police
6
alone, but we have agreed before it's a very, very
7
tight, closely tight and closely knit unit, and you
8
had people at the scene, duty personnel with LdSH
9
and regimental people, and people talk.
So did you
10
find out from regimental channels whether or not
11
there was a suicide note within days, if not hours,
12
of the suicide itself?
13
A.
I wasn't made aware that
14
there was a suicide note until the board of
15
inquiry.
16
Q.
First time you heard it?
17
A.
First time that I heard that
18
there was a suicide note, that it had supposedly
19
been at the scene and that it wasn't, that it had
20
been retained by the military police.
21
COLONEL DRAPEAU:
22
question.
23
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. McLAINE:
That's all my
Thank you.
24
Q.
I will be brief.
25
Did the regiment at any time order
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Corporal Langridge out of treatment at the
2
hospital?
3
4
A.
No.
We are not in a position
to make any or influence that type of decision.
5
Q.
And when you were contacted
6
to try to help him out to find him a place, how
7
long did it take for the regiment to do that?
8
A.
I think it probably took two
9
to three hours for, from the time that we received
10
the call that he was going to require residence to
11
the time that the RSM was able to link him with
12
Master Warrant Officer Levesque, and
13
accommodations, secure a room, a key and have it
14
available for him.
15
16
Q.
And at the time, did the
regiment understand that this was his only option?
17
A.
I don't think that we really
18
looked any further into that.
19
find somewhere for him to stay, so we actioned
20
that, and we didn't look to see if, you know, he
21
could be put up by friends or anything else, no.
22
23
Q.
If he had had another safe
place to go, would the regiment have taken him?
24
25
The request came to
A.
We received the request, and
I am not sure if it was through Corporal Langridge
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to the medical staff at the Alberta Hospital, who
2
then conveyed it to Charlene Ferdinand at the CDU.
3
4
But the request came to us to find him
accommodations, so we provided them.
5
If there had been no request and
6
if, for example, if him and Rebecca were still
7
living together at that time, there would have been
8
no involvement by the regiment to try to find a
9
roof for him.
10
11
Q.
necessary to help him out?
12
13
The regiment felt that it was
A.
The regiment wanted to help
Q.
And when members from LdSH
him out, yes.
14
15
came to get him in the hospital, was that required;
16
was that part of their job?
17
A.
No.
Typically, any person
18
that's discharged from the hospital, usually you
19
find your own way home, be it taxi or friend or
20
family that would come to pick you up.
21
case, we knew that he was going to need
22
transportation.
23
where his jeep was, but we knew that he didn't have
24
any transportation at the hospital.
25
believe we dispatched the duty truck to go and pick
In this
I am not sure if, at this time
So we, I
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him up.
2
Q.
And reference has been made
3
to Document 1128, and that is Nurse Ferdinand's
4
notes at the hospital.
5
"Captain Lubiniecki contracted" -- that you
6
contracted with Corporal Langridge that he wouldn't
7
harm himself.
8
9
And she indicates that
Can you tell me about that
conversation?
I know we touched on it earlier, but
10
what was it to you; was it a contract?
11
A.
No.
That's not a term that I
12
would use, "contract".
I think I had a discussion
13
with the soldier from my unit.
14
emotional a few times about the bond that we share
15
within the military and specifically within our
16
regiment between soldiers and regardless of rank.
17
And when I sat down with him or when I talked to
18
him with regards to that, it was a
19
soldier-to-soldier talk, sort of a man-to-man
20
discussion and sort of pride, required the trust
21
and honesty at the forefront of being a soldier.
22
And that's what I sort of played on or relied on
23
with him, that based on our time in Afghanistan,
24
before, you know, we had a common thing that we
25
could relate to, and I really tried to use that as
I sort of got
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an opportunity for us to come to an agreement where
2
I just needed to hear from him that he was doing
3
all right, that if he needed anybody to ever talk
4
to, you know, I gave him my phone number.
5
night, he had access to me.
6
sort of see where he was at at that point.
7
Q.
Day or
And just wanted to
And, again, this wasn't
8
something that you had to do as your role as
9
adjutant?
10
A.
No.
11
Q.
And just so there is no
12
confusion, Corporal Langridge agreed to the
13
conditions that were put in place that you learned
14
of when you returned after your leave in early
15
March?
16
17
A.
That is what I was briefed
Q.
And had he not agreed to the
on, yes.
18
19
conditions, they couldn't have been imposed upon
20
him at that point?
21
A.
No.
At that point, the
22
regiment would have had to look at some other means
23
of either working with the medical community or
24
finding a work around whereby he could be ordered
25
to adhere to them or confine to, confined to
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barracks whereby he would not be able to leave.
2
Q.
And when Corporal Langridge
3
came to see you on the 14th when you returned to
4
talk about his conditions, you had helped him out,
5
you talked to him and listened to him?
6
A.
Yeah.
On the, I think it was
7
on that day that he sort of expressed, I think he
8
had talked about how up to that point he had been
9
adhering to the structure or to the policy that was
10
kind of put before him, that he was having no
11
issues with what was going on, that the one thing
12
that he would like to do is see some of those being
13
minorly altered.
14
time every two hours.
15
could be extended to four hours. Following that
16
discussion, you know, I -- at the conclusion of
17
that discussion, I said, 'If pushed on through the
18
weekend, the three of us, yourself, myself, the
19
RSM, can sit down and do a complete review of
20
these, and if we need to remove some or make
21
amendments, then I am confident that that will be
22
possible'.
23
24
And one of them was the reporting
Q.
He was looking to see if it
And how was he when he left,
was he satisfied with your response?
25
A.
At that time, he seemed
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happy.
2
that.
He said, 'Thank you', and we left it at
3
Q.
Does the regiment have any
4
ability to give soldiers time off work without a
5
medical chit?
6
A.
Yes.
It's one of -- I guess,
7
one of the perks of being in the regiment and
8
spending so much time away from home, be it on
9
deployment or exercise.
The regiment sort of tries
10
to make up for that and all the weekends that we
11
miss from families based on training by affording
12
soldiers additional time off.
13
a bank appointment, it wouldn't be like he had to
14
stop getting paid or punched out for that period of
15
time.
16
and he would be able to attend a briefing.
So if a soldier had
He would just notify his chain of command,
17
So the same thing for any
18
appointments.
19
it becomes to be a problem or something that's
20
noted by the chain of commands, as soon as the
21
soldier identifies that he has an appointment, he
22
is able to attend.
23
Unless soldiers are abusing it and
Q.
And all of Corporal
24
Langridge's appointments would be, have been seen
25
as part of his duties, and he wouldn't have been
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docked pay, or nothing would have been taken from
2
him?
3
A.
No.
All of his medical
4
appointments would become a place of duty for him.
5
So much like the soldier report for PT in the
6
morning or for their other duties, his place of
7
duty during an appointment would be that
8
appointment.
9
appointment, the regiment would be made aware, and
And if he failed to show up for that
10
it would be no different than a soldier that missed
11
a dental appointment, which basically the number of
12
soldiers in Edmonton that require specialist or
13
medical treatment, from dental to surgeries and
14
counseling, when soldiers are booked in and fail to
15
cancel 24 hours out, it -- really, you are taking
16
an appointment away from another soldier that is
17
just going to have to wait longer for it.
18
19
Q.
Could Corporal Langridge have
released from the military voluntarily?
20
A.
Yes.
He could have
21
voluntarily submitted a memo requesting voluntary
22
release.
23
soldier is required to complete their first
24
three-year contract before they are eligible to
25
submit a voluntary release.
It's typically a six-month process.
A
However, there are
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cases where there are guys with less than three
2
years whose absence had been entertained. But he
3
could have submitted a six-month release and with
4
special consideration or in his memorandum, if he
5
had outlined the requirement to be out prior to six
6
months, it could have been expedited up to 30 days.
7
8
Q.
And this is true even though
he had signed a 25-year contract?
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Did Corporal Langridge ever
11
tell you that he wanted a medical release?
12
A.
No.
13
Q.
And, in fact, he actually
14
told you that he wanted to be a better soldier
15
again?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
And it's the soldier's
18
responsibility to update their documents, and
19
soldiers are routinely told that, for instance,
20
before they leave for Afghanistan; is that correct?
21
A.
Yes.
Prior to any
22
deployments, there is a departure assistance group,
23
or a DAG, or a PRV, personal readiness
24
verification, form that all soldiers have to
25
complete.
And it's a complete review and
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preparation for them to be able to deploy overseas,
2
so everything from making sure you have an updated
3
driver license, to a review of your will, as to the
4
memorial cross PEN form, dental checks, medical
5
checkups.
6
have to go through to be checked off prior to them
7
being eligible to deploy.
It's a whole procedure that soldiers
8
9
And then within the regiment, this
is conducted for every soldier approximately once a
10
year, they will do the administrative side of it
11
specifically where soldiers will go through all of
12
their files.
13
Q.
And as part of Corporal
14
Langridge's predeployment when he was having his
15
drug screening, he likely also would have been told
16
to update his documents; is that correct?
17
MR. FREIMAN:
Mr. Chair, I am
18
sorry.
I really hesitate to rise.
I hesitate to
19
be a stickler for detail.
20
Justice represents the subjects, represents the
21
military, represents each of the witnesses as well.
22
In those circumstances, it occurs to me that
23
leading questions which not only suggest an answer
24
but, in fact, propose a proposition to be agreed
25
upon are not appropriate.
The Department of
I am not a stickler for
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the proprieties one would have in a criminal trial,
2
but there are some forms of question that probably
3
are not appropriate in this particular
4
circumstance.
5
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Any comment,
7
COLONEL DRAPEAU:
I agree.
8
THE CHAIRPERSON:
In terms of the
6
9
Colonel Drapeau?
questions that are being asked, I am not totally
10
opposed.
If you want to just reword some of the
11
questions, and we can move on.
12
MR. FREIMAN:
13
don't mind the topic at all.
14
the questions.
15
16
Just to be clear, I
It's just the form of
THE CHAIRPERSON:
understand.
17
MS. McLAINE:
18
BY MS. McLAINE:
19
Q.
20
Yes, I
Thank you.
I will ask a very direct
question.
21
Had Corporal Langridge properly
22
executed documents and wanted them changed and
23
turned them in, would the regiment have processed
24
them?
25
A.
Yes.
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Q.
In this case, I have noted
2
that two assisting officers were assigned; is that
3
routine procedure?
4
A.
It's not a requirement.
5
Typically, the next of kin is provided with the
6
assisting officer.
7
it was most beneficial to assign two assisting
8
officers, one to the parents and one to the next of
9
kin, Rebecca.
And in this case, we felt that
As I said, it's a difficult time for
10
anybody to go through.
We just thought that we
11
would attempt to assist both parties.
12
Q.
13
indicated that that worked quite well?
14
A.
And you have previously
I think following the death
15
up until the time of the funeral, there was
16
significant, I think, communications between the
17
Fynes and Rebecca either directly or through their
18
assisting officers, and there is several documents
19
that kind of highlight the back-and-forth, the
20
conversation and the mutual planning of the
21
funeral.
22
Q.
And, initially, both parties,
23
both Rebecca and Mr. and Mrs. Fynes, seemed quite
24
satisfied; is that correct?
25
A.
Yes.
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Q.
I would like to take you to a
2
document.
It's at Tab, just bear with me for the
3
reference, Tab 43 your book.
4
the top, it's an e-mail to you from D. Stedeford,
5
and it's dated March 15th.
6
down states:
And at this tab, at
And the third paragraph
7
"Lovely family, and she is
8
grief-stricken, some personal
9
guilt as well perhaps.
They
10
are truly appreciative that
11
you also tried to do with
12
helping them back on the
13
right side."[as read]
14
Do you know what that meant?
15
A.
Once again, you know, not
16
wanting to -- I am trying to be humble.
17
that they were appreciative of the fact that I was
18
taking time to attempt to provide support or help
19
to Stuart and maybe help him get through the
20
situation that he found himself in between the
21
drugs and substance use.
22
23
Q.
And you were also thanked for
doing the eulogy at the funeral?
24
25
I think
A.
Yes.
There was an e-mail
that I had sent to, I believe, Major Parkinson sort
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of talking about a small rift that might be forming
2
between the family and Rebecca, and we sort of
3
discussed this earlier this morning.
4
message was sent back, I believe, directly from the
5
family whereby they said that they didn't have the
6
opportunity to see me after the funeral and they
7
wanted to thank me for the eulogy.
8
9
Q.
And then a
And I believe what you are
referring to is at Tab 84, if you can turn it. Is
10
that the e-mail you are referring to?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
It states at the top, it's
13
from Mr. Fynes, and it states:
14
"May I start by passing back
15
to Captain Lubiniecki our
16
thanks for having spoken at
17
Stuart's funeral.
18
that we didn't get the chance
19
to thank him personally.
20
Stuart had spoken very highly
21
of him."[as read]
22
We regret
And it's correct that you wouldn't
23
have agreed to do the eulogy had you not cared
24
deeply for Corporal Langridge?
25
A.
Yes.
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Q.
Your interview subsequently
2
with the military police, your answers were not
3
influenced in any way?
4
A.
No, they were not.
5
Q.
And you would agree that the
6
discrepancies were fairly minor, the ones you were
7
pointed out earlier?
8
9
THE CHAIRPERSON:
him the question.
10
MS. McLAINE:
11
BY MS. McLAINE:
12
Q.
13
Maybe just ask
Certainly.
The discrepancies that you
noted earlier, how would you describe them?
14
A.
I think when we reviewed them
15
earlier this afternoon, there was one date and then
16
possibly one or two words that were incorrect or
17
were different from my recollection. The overall
18
document, I think, captured the relevant and
19
accurate direction.
20
21
MS. McLAINE:
all my questions.
22
23
Thank you. Those are
There may be a redirect.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Clarification,
Mr. Freiman?
24
MR. FREIMAN:
25
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. FREIMAN:
Yes.
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Q.
On a couple of occasions this
2
morning and then again in response to Colonel
3
Drapeau's direct questioning and, I think, to
4
counsel for the Department of Justice as well, you
5
were emphasizing the voluntary nature of the
6
conditions and, moreover, that Corporal Langridge
7
appeared to be satisfied with the conditions and
8
doing well with it; do you recall those statements?
9
A.
Yes.
10
Q.
Now, would it, therefore,
11
surprise you to hear that Corporal Langridge had
12
been complaining about the conditions constantly
13
since they were imposed on him?
14
give you a reference.
15
think my friends will recognize this document.
16
just had it photocopied.
And I can tell you, sir,
17
these are just examples.
This is Document 1128,
18
pages 54 to 55.
19
is a photocopy of the note on the medical record
20
compiled by Major Hannah.
21
And let me just
I can show it to you.
I
I
This is a transcription -- or this
And he writes:
22
"Member in today because he
23
is upset and not following
24
BAC plan.
25
Alberta Hospital 3 March '08.
Released from
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Since then, has been using
2
drugs, alcohol and other
3
drugs.
4
reported to have been
5
harassing girlfriend. Known
6
polysubstance abuse.
7
question, OSI/depression.
8
Member directed by unit to
9
live in company lines to
10
enhance supervision."[as
11
read]
12
Also has been
The
And can I confirm with you that
13
that corresponds to some of the conditions that are
14
formalized in RSM Ross's document, living within
15
company lines to enhance supervision?
16
A.
Yes.
That's, you know, one
17
of the conditions, was that he would reside within
18
the unit lines.
19
Q.
And then you will notice:
20
"Upset with this plan.
21
Requested consult with
22
Alberta Hospital."[as read]
23
Now, that's one example. And does
24
that seem to you like someone who was content with
25
conditions?
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A.
No, but what was the action
2
taken by the medical community, I guess, I would
3
argue.
4
deciding to provide this information to the unit to
5
say the member is not happy with the conditions?
With regards to this, when were they
6
Q.
Let me just clarify
7
something.
I am not suggesting that the chain of
8
command or the operation on the military side is
9
blameworthy in any way.
I am simply commenting on
10
the assumption that or trying to clarify with you a
11
context for the assumption for the statement which
12
you were told that Corporal Langridge was agreeing
13
voluntarily and was pleased?
14
A.
Yes, and not having knowledge
15
of these discussions between him and his healthcare
16
providers, my impression and my interaction with
17
Corporal Langridge is what I was basing my answers
18
off of.
19
the 14th and he said he was happy with -- going
20
through the weekend, he was happy with the
21
conditions and he was proud of the fact that he was
22
adhering to them, then that's what we went and
23
based our impression off of, not information that
24
was, I guess, being provided by him to his
25
healthcare providers.
So when I spoke to him on the morning of
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Q.
I won't trouble you with
2
other examples.
3
photocopied other examples where Corporal Langridge
4
expresses something other than satisfaction with
5
the conditions under which he was living.
6
I can simply tell you that I have
And, again, I do want to be very
7
clear because this can be misunderstood.
I am not
8
suggesting that you knew about this or that you
9
ought to have known about this or that this was in
10
any way a responsibility of the operational side. I
11
am merely trying to clarify the report that was
12
given to you either by others or by Corporal
13
Langridge about his satisfaction with these
14
conditions.
15
MS. RICHARDS: Mr. Chairperson, I
16
just want to be clear for the record, and I
17
certainly don't think Commission counsel intended
18
this, but in terms of this note on March 7th, this
19
Commission has heard evidence directly from Major
20
Hannah regarding that conversation, and his
21
evidence before this Commission is that Corporal
22
Langridge agreed to the conditions and volunteered
23
to them.
24
sure that that information is equally clear and
25
provided to this witness.
So just for the record, I want to make
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MR. FREIMAN:
We have had that
2
information, and we will have a good deal more
3
evidence, I expect, on the nature of these
4
conditions and who was happy and who wasn't.
5
BY MR. FREIMAN:
6
Q.
Finally, you began to discuss
7
the issue of agreement and what would happen if
8
Corporal Langridge had not agreed to these
9
conditions.
10
I just want to take you to your
11
own discussion with him on the 13th or the 14th, I
12
take it, of March, when he asked for the conditions
13
to be loosened.
14
understood that he had an option not to comply with
15
the conditions at all; if he didn't like reporting
16
every two hours, that he could simply not report?
17
Was it your impression that he
A.
Yes.
I also, you know, had
18
the impression from him that he was looking to make
19
some changes in his life and he was looking to
20
demonstrate a commitment to not only the unit but
21
commitment to himself and his recovery.
22
23
Q.
Thank you very
much.
24
25
All right.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Drapeau,
anything of clarification?
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COLONEL DRAPEAU:
I have three
2
quick points.
3
RE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY COLONEL DRAPEAU:
4
Q.
Major, concerning the
5
voluntary release in answers to my friend here, I
6
just want to make sure that I understand what is
7
your testimony to, you make it sound as if, maybe
8
it's right, that a voluntary release is something
9
that one could get despite the fact one is
10
scheduled to serve for a long time to come, as is
11
the case of Stuart Langridge, by submitting a
12
request; right?
13
A.
Yes.
14
Q.
That request, correct me if I
15
am wrong, that request has to be supported or
16
somewhat addressed by the unit first and foremost?
17
A.
The request would go through
18
his chain of command.
It would be addressed to the
19
CO, and it would be admitted along the way with
20
either support or lack of support from his chain of
21
command.
22
officer, and it would be at that time that he would
23
review the document, review the reasons for the
24
release and then would provide his approval or
25
denial.
The memo would end up with the commanding
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Q.
And based on your experience
2
and the position you were in as an adjutant and the
3
fact in 2008 the army was at war and deployed all
4
of its assets, of either training or deploying to
5
Afghanistan, what was the likelihood of your unit
6
supporting that kind of release request?
7
A.
It would -- I can't say it
8
would be supported 100 per cent but, if we were
9
able to dig up release records from the regiment, I
10
think we would find that there were numerous
11
soldiers that voluntarily released in years prior
12
to that year and years following while we were in
13
Afghanistan in combat.
14
Q.
And is your testimony the
15
average time would be about six months, those who
16
are successful --
17
A.
Six months is the -- six
18
months is the policy, that within six months of it
19
being approved you will be released.
20
individuals that have secured jobs that start
21
within that six-month period, or I have just had a
22
soldier that was picked up by the RCMP and is
23
training at depot in Regina, starts in two months,
24
that type of information is included and is
25
considered when the decision is made.
Now,
And for
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people with job offers or special cases, the six
2
months can be reduced down to a period of thirty
3
days.
4
Q.
If any issue approves?
5
A.
If approved.
Q.
And how long is that approval
9
A.
A few weeks possibly.
10
Q.
One last question. Throughout
6
for approvement.
7
8
Yes, relaxed
process?
11
your examination today, we saw many communication,
12
some reference to BlackBerry is being used; you
13
have one?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
How often do you use
16
pin-to-pin communication processes in there?
17
18
Q.
Okay.
A.
I am a bit of a dinosaur when
You have answered my
question.
21
22
I am not even sure what that
is.
19
20
A.
it comes to technology.
23
Q.
24
THE CHAIRPERSON:
25
Okay.
Thanks.
I use them all
the time.
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MS. RICHARDS:
I think I am the
2
only one in the room who doesn't have a BlackBerry,
3
so I don't use them.
4
5
THE CHAIRPERSON:
I just have a couple of questions
or just comments.
8
9
We
are okay with that?
6
7
Any further?
Major, in regards to -- in your
position as an adjutant, I am going to move in the
10
area of, say, the police and the military police
11
notebooks, they are a stable of the business.
12
the world of officers and adjutants, do you do
13
notebooks, daily notebooks?
14
of things?
15
In
Do you do those kinds
THE WITNESS:
Yeah.
Some people
16
use their Outlook calendar for tracking everything.
17
At that time, I was using an agenda or a Day-Timer
18
with loose leaf notes in the back.
19
THE CHAIRPERSON:
20
notebook per se.
21
22
But it's not a
THE WITNESS:
There's nothing that
we retain at the end or keep a log of, no.
23
THE CHAIRPERSON:
In regard to the
24
kit shop, I think I have an understanding as to
25
that position.
There may be some words to help
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make it clear.
2
a person would aspire to do.
3
be considered, as in other profession, as a
4
light-duty job from time to time for people; is
5
that right?
6
It's certainly not a position that
THE WITNESS:
It's almost it could
Yes.
Nobody joins
7
the army to, there is no kit shop profession but,
8
within the regiment, there is plenty of jobs that
9
people have to do because it supports the regiment
10
as a whole.
11
soldiers on light duties or temporary categories or
12
permanent categories for medical conditions would
13
be employed.
14
And this is one where duties on,
THE CHAIRPERSON:
From my
15
knowledge, it's never been seen as a discipline
16
position or anything.
17
that has to get done by somebody and --
It's just one of those jobs
18
THE WITNESS:
19
THE CHAIRPERSON:
20
Yes, sir.
-- light duty or
whoever it may be.
21
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
22
THE CHAIRPERSON:
And there was a
23
discussion around suicide watch and, in that same
24
discussion, I just want to make sure that there is
25
no misinterpretation by, whether it be Colonel
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Drapeau or anybody.
2
was mentioned and the guarding of prisoners. In
3
military police, the cell block guarding of
4
prisoners is not a policing duty and function, as I
5
understand, and there is a lot of the -- regiment
6
is responsible for assisting in the guarding of
7
prisoners, or commissioners or different people.
8
And it could be the military police, but a variety
9
of people are used to guard prisoners.
10
This issue of the cell block
Prisoners are not on suicide watch
11
per se, even though you may have somebody there all
12
the time?
13
THE WITNESS:
Right.
In a lot of
14
cases, and I think the case that I was using as an
15
example, sir, was a soldier that's basically put
16
into the drunk tank for the night, we would be
17
tasked to provide a soldier to remain with that
18
individual outside of the cell.
19
would then be able to respond to calls and do their
20
business, but we would have somebody there just
21
watching.
22
Military police
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Right. But even
23
though you would have somebody there constant
24
doesn't mean it's anything more than guarding a
25
prisoner?
I just didn't want to --
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THE WITNESS:
Yes, that's right.
2
THE CHAIRPERSON:
I didn't want to
3
confuse the guarding of the prisoner with suicide
4
watch or anybody who would interpret that, so --
5
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
6
THE CHAIRPERSON:
But in those
7
circumstances, you're not doing special duties.
8
That's just part of the duty of guarding a
9
prisoner.
10
THE WITNESS:
Yes.
11
THE CHAIRPERSON:
And -I know you don't
12
like to do it, but, you know, it's not something
13
that the regiment people like to do, but it's
14
something that has to happen.
15
THE WITNESS:
Right.
And at the
16
end of the day, he is locked in the cell, and he is
17
really under the control of the military police, so
18
we are not as much guarding as we are just there
19
supporting.
20
21
THE CHAIRPERSON:
Splitting words,
I guess.
22
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
23
THE CHAIRPERSON:
I think, yes,
24
just one comment relative to the eulogy.
I think I
25
understand what you are saying, and I am not saying
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whether I agree or disagree with what your
2
statements might have been at this particular
3
eulogy, but in terms of the time spent and the
4
positives and the negatives and all of that, I have
5
been in similar situations, and I understand the
6
thought process you were going through, not
7
necessarily saying I would accept what you have
8
said.
9
acknowledge the difficulty through that kind of
10
process and the type of work that you had to do
11
through that.
Obviously, the family has thanked you, but I
12
THE WITNESS:
13
THE CHAIRPERSON:
14
Thank you, sir.
So are there any
questions at all of this witness further, none?
15
Major, I want to thank you. It's
16
been a long day, and you have been here all day and
17
your travels.
18
well as your service to Canada and to your
19
regiment.
And I appreciate your testimony as
20
THE WITNESS:
21
THE CHAIRPERSON:
22
very much for the job that you do.
23
Thank you, sir.
So thank you
Thank you.
I guess we will adjourn until
24
Tuesday morning, have the Commission.
25
holiday to everyone and safe return.
Happy
I am not
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going to, I have some stuff to do here, so please
2
feel free to move about.
3
--- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at 4:43 p.m.,
4
to be resumed on Tuesday, April 10, 2012
5
at 9:30 a.m.
Thank you.
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I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT the foregoing is an accurate
transcription of my stenographic notes made herein,
to the best of my skill and ability.
Lisa Lamberti, CSR, RPR
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