SIDE TWO
Y:
Okay, I've turned the tape over on the other side and I'll begin with the question that I ended off
on. What did it feel like to be an Armenian living in Ordou before the massacres?
E:
We were living free life. In 1896, there was a massacre in Adana about 10 or 15,000
Armenians. We stayed (?here) in Turkey. But where I was born in Ordou they didn't touch
anybody, that time.
Y:
At that time.
E:
But 1915 they really cleaned, wiped us out.
Y:
You said that, you said previously that. your brother had been robbed. Can you tell us more
about that?
E:
After four years later I when from (?Kharpert) to (?Kurdistan) mountains to Russia.
Y:
Four years after what?
E:
After Armenian exportation 1915.
Y:
Okay, I want to know about your brother that was robbed.
E:
Yes
Y:
Okay, did it happen at that time?
E:
No, four years later when we come back, my brother had a store, grocery store, they watching
him, see? And one night, they cut
Y:
This was in Ordou
E:
Yes. One night they cut him, while he was going to get up on the stairsways, you know?
Several Turks, they get one of them hit with the rifle, you know, his head was (?blown). Then
they took his pocket they ran away.
Y:
And what kind of store did he have?
E:
Grocery store.
Y:
It was a grocery store. And this was then in what year?
E:
In 1919.
Y:
19 and at that time, there were no massacres in Ordou.
E:
No massacre, no, just robberies. So my brother found the (?cap) fast, you know, and written
his name.
Y:
Oh, one of the Turks (?yes, they were struggling) hats.
E:
And they went to the court, they told my brother, you were going to rob these people, he says,
they made him guilty. No he says, look at my head, they hit me, you know. No justice, you
know, their own way, their government they just do there own way, you know. So what can you
do. So my older brother from here says why are you staying in that country, he says. You got a
life
Y:
Your brother, this other brother you're talking about was (E: older brother) in America (E: Yes)
what was his name?
E:
Dicran.
Y:
Dicran and what was the name of your brother that was robbed?
E:
Mugerditch.
Y:
Mugerditch.
E:
So I came first then a year later Mugar came and he died/
Y:
When your brother was robbed, were you in Ordou at that time?
E:
Yes. I yelled I opened the, I heard some noise, you know
Y:
Or you saw it happen?
E:
Yes. I opened the window, I thought there was a fire, I yelled fire but it wasn't fire, see? It was
robbing him.
Y:
Do you know of any case where an Armenian or a Greek could testify against a Turk in court?
E:
If they have a case, sure they can testify.
Y:
They can.
E:
Yes. Those things I say the Turks they won't believe it.
Y:
Won't believe it.
E:
They so pure, themselves they testify they're so pure.
Y:
What kind of clubs, organizations or political groups were there in Ordou before 1915?
E:
I think there was a (?Dashnatzagon)
Y:
You had a (?Dashnatzagon)
VE:
I don't want no politics over there.
Y:
Okay and what other political groups did you have?
E:
I don't know.
Y:
Were there any Ramgavars or (?Hunchgans)?
E:
I never heard of a Ramgavar (laughs) I don't know. I was too young to know this.
Y:
And did your family belong to any of these?
E:
No.
Y:
No. They didn't belong to any? (E: They didn't belong to any) political group. Were there any
charitable organizations in Ordou?
E:
No, no charitable.
Y:
Before, you mentioned there were some missionaries, which missionaries were they, do you
know their names or who they represented?
E:
My life saved American missionary. When I was under the mulberry tree in His name was Dr.
(?Atchinson)
Y:
(?Atchinson)?
E:
From Andover, Massachusetts, the main homes. He brought me American hospital in Kharpert
and he died that same year, he died
Y:
What was wrong with you and how old were you at that time?
E:
About 12 years old (Y: 12) I had influenza.
Y:
And he brought you into Kharpert you said?
E:
Yes, It was in Kharpert. So after three months, I stay there, and I became well (telephone rings
and it is difficult to determine what is being said).
Y:
Who were the Armenian leaders in your area in Ordou? Were there any Armenian leaders, any
special people that
E:
I didn't belong to any organizations or anything to know that.
Y:
What kind of social control did the Turks have in your town? For instance, was there a draft at
anytime in Ordou before the massacre.
E:
Well, they took soldiers, yes.
Y:
And they take Armenians and Greeks also?
E:
Yes.
Y:
Was anyone in your family drafted?
E:
My brother Mugar ran away, he didn't want to give up himself. He ran away in the mountains,
he didn't want to fight.
Y:
Were the Greeks or Armenians able to pay their way, like if they didn't go to the army, could
they pay taxes to get out? Did you have that at all?
E:
They paid more money, they got to be rich to, like 20 Turkish gold or a 100, something like
that. They (?Keep) you, you don't go to war.
Y:
And they wouldn't go to war, okay
E:
Bribe like, bribe.
Y:
How, off hand, can you remember how many prisons you had in Ordou/
E:
How, many what?
Y:
Prisons, jails.
E:
I don't even know one
Y:
You did have one.
E:
One or two something like that.
Y:
Do you know, have any idea, what percentage of prisoners were Armenians, Greeks or Turks?
E:
Most of them are Turks.
Y:
Most of them were Turks.
E:
Yes. Very few
Y:
Before the 1915 massacres, were Armenians stores and shops looted and destroyed at
anytime, that you could remember?
E:
No. They were alright.
Y:
They were alright.
E:
Yes, they were alright.
Y:
Okay. Now, we're going to get into the massacres. Could you please begin by, you know,
talking about the very first experiences you had with, you know how it started in your town or
toward your family.
E:
Yes. Every town different date, in 1915 about the month of May, the Turks mail every section
to Turkey about the Armenians, they going to be deported and killed. But the Turks kept
secret, you know? So (?they come among) the able bodied Armenian, they get (?it) my father
like from 16 on up, you know. They put them in a jail, Turkish jail.
Y:
Your father was put in jail?
E:
Yes, in (?Isore) and they tied them up their hands two by two, 50 of them, 50 row, two by two
and right away they put their end of their rifles, bayonets, they took them like that, 8 hour
further they shot them, every one of them. One guy was saved, the bullet hit the rock, he was
bullet all over him. What happened? He said to the Turks, I want the other side of the earth
and I came back. He says there was nothing over there (laughs).
Y:
How old were you at this time?
E:
About 12 years old.
Y:
Oh you were 12.
E:
I saw my father
Y:
How old was your father when he was taken?
E:
About 40-45, around there.
Y:
He was 40. Can you recall at all the names of any of the Turkish officials or people that did
this, names of generals or can you give any kind of specifics.
E:
The main general was, you know who it was? This guy in Berlin killed him. That was the main
Y:
Main general in, are you talking about a Turk or an Armenian?
E:
Turk, Turk.
Y:
Oh, a Turk.
E:
Armenians they didn't have no
Y:
Oh, you mean (?Talaat)
E:
What?
Y:
You mean (?Talaat)
E:
(?Talaat), yes.
Y:
I meant when they came and took your father and they took him out and killed him, the people
that were involved in that, the Turks that were involved, do you know the names of any of
them?
E:
No, ordinary Turkish soldiers, you Armenian come on, (?where you) been, come on, you
(?been) a soldier come on, (?they led) they took them in a prison, tied them up and shoot
them.
Y:
And you say them take your father.
E:
Yes.
Y:
And 8 hours later, you said they were shot. Were they shot in Ordou or were taken out of the
town? (E: Outshirts) Outskirts.
E:
There was called you look down in the bottom, you don't see, you know so deep. They took
them.
Y:
You mean like a canyon?
E:
Canyon like, yes.
Y:
Like a canyon.
E:
Way down, their bodies so nobody can find them but they found them. Only one man was alive
in that group.
Y:
One man. Did you know this man personally?
E:
Oh, we talked to him, yes. He was (?in Ordou when I left there)
Y:
Did you know what his name was?
E:
He worked in a coffee house there, I don't know what happened. He was making coffee.
Y:
Who else among your relatives were taken out on that particular day? Any of your other
relatives, can you give me their names?
E:
My mother's two brothers and my aunt's husband and on the way, you go one village to the
other and they escorting you, the Turks, soldiers. They kick out the men, come here. Who are
the rich guys among this group?
Y:
You mean they were asking an Armenian right now?
E:
An Armenian. Who's the rich guy. And this guy afraid, tell him that was so and so. So we
crossed the (?Ellis) river, that flows the Black Sea.
Y:
(?Ellis) river.
E:
Yes. After we sit down there an hour or two, they came with the horse, gendarme you call,
that means get up. Alright, we went about a mile, we stop, the Turks on the horse started to
reading their names.
Y:
Now were you in this group?
E:
Yes, I was.
Y:
How old were you at that time?
E:
12 years old I told you, now remember!
Y:
Okay.
E:
About 6 prominent men, you know, they called their names, they were sitting on the horse,
they come down, and they put the bayonets, come one they took them
Y:
Now these were the rich Armenians, they were after, right?
E:
Yes. They took them out, down about just, oh they going to come back after a (?few days)
they-said turkeys. And when they (?robbed to them) they all rich, you know, gold
Y:
Did they have gold on themselves, then?
E:
Yes, on the way they start to us, you know the group, there were a few hundred, 4 or 5 400 put
us in a cave. I remember, you know, you start one by one sitting
Y:
Now could you tell me where this was again?
E:
In Asia Minor on the way through Ordou, interior of Turkey, you know, where they just
scattering them around, you know, strip the man woman, you know for money, see they, (?who
said) this is a rich group, you know? They, well the next night we went again to
Y:
Now they put you in a cave
E:
Cave, one by one, they take, see? So you can't run away, you know. And if you look, if you
(?slipped) up they put you one side, hey you, one side, change anything. So one day, another
day later, they put us in a cave, lot of caves in Turkey. We still in the mountains, we we start to
sure, you know we going to die, you know. I remember
Y:
And you were in the caves at that time.
E:
I was. They want money, no money, right away woman had earrings, you know? Anytime I see
a woman here it reminds me. They start to grab your earrings on the woman, they didn't us,
they got what they want so they run away. We were, most of us on the way starved to death.
Y:
Now when you say you were in the cave, are you talking about just one experience in the cave
or
E:
Yes.
Y:
Okay, just one. And were these soldiers that were doing it or did the public take part?
E:
No, soldiers from the government.
Y:
They were soldiers.
E:
There were only about two soldiers, about 4 or 500 hundred Armenians but we helpless, they
can't, where they going to go? Supposed they fought some places Armenians they fought, they
died because they didn't have no ammunition, no food.
Y:
Could we go back track a little bit? And can you tell me again from ,the very beginning, you say
they took your father and shot him and then what happened to your family? Like who was next
or how did they come about, at what time and when in what manner did they come about to
lake you out? Can we kind of back track a little?
E:
My sister, my aunts didn't keep her in Greek, they were afraid, see. So she stayed in a Turkish
house. She was alive. My brother, another brother, Mugar, told my mother, Mama, we not
going to go not far this is we going to I'm going to run away. My mother says, why you going to
leave me? You know she seeking for help. So I stick to my mother. My brother Hagop came
after us. My older brother was in this country, 1913 he ran away from the Turks.
Y:
Who was your eldest brother again?
E:
Dicran.
Y:
Oh, he was in this country. What year did he arrive here, do you know? What year was it when
he came to America.
E:
Who me? 19
Y:
No, no Dicran.
E:
1913.
Y:
Okay
E:
So what I was saying?
Y:
You stayed with your mother, you said and Mugerditch wanted to run away.
E:
We start walking, you know, the Turks
Y:
Where did Mugerditch go? Where could he run at that time?
E:
You know what he did? He ran this filbert nut field, Armenians had that field it's nuts. He kept
himself under the ground. He knew the country pretty well, you know. For four years, from one
place to the other, he run, finally one day started everything was quiet, why he came back.
Y:
After the massacres (E: Yes) he came back, okay. So he survived then.
E:
I came as far as Kharpert.
Y:
Let's go back again and try and start from after your father was killed, can you give me like
more detailed information, like how they came after you, or your mother, and how they started
breaking your family apart. This is very, very initial
E:
Well, uncle was with us, he was old. They didn't want to bother older guys, they were all beard,
white hair, I don't know what they going to do with us, we're walking everyday from one town to
the other. Until you reach one town, 20-30 people died, you go one place and 30-40 died.
Starving people dying all the time, every day that's the way they annihilate them, you know.
Just (?departing) you know.
Y:
Well, then you started out from Ordou and can you well, maybe by tracing this map, give me
some idea of where some of the first places were that you went and, let's read the names off.
You started from Ordou, okay here's Ordou over here. Okay, where was the first place you
remember going?
E:
Interior.
Y:
You started going towards the interior, okay.
E:
You read those what it says.
Y:
That's says Shabin
E:
Shabin (?Kara Hissar) this is the country fought against the Turks.
Y:
Did you wind up going through that town?
E:
No.
Y:
No?
E:
Outskirts of that.
Y:
Outskirts of Shabin, okay.
E:
Outskirts. This is the only country fought and they died like hell (laughs).
Y:
Okay, so you went through the outskirts of Shabin Kara-Hissar, okay of Shabin
E:
What's this here?
Y:
E:
, no.
Y:
Okay this is something like that, this is
E:
Well, when I escaped I came See I to come up this way (?Harpout).
Y:
You went into (?Harpout) then.
E:
Yes.
Y:
Okay.
E:
Yes. (?Harpout) the American missionary brought me American hospital with three donkeys
Y:
With three donkeys?
E:
With the three donkeys.
Y:
Okay now when you went into to (?Harpout) you were ill, that happened at that same time
while you were being deported?
E:
While we were being what?
Y:
While you were being deported, that happen at the same time?
E:
No. That time I was sick, American hospital was up there. They didn't bother me, cause I was
sick. But after that everything became quiet.
Y:
I'm still confused. Let me just go over that again. When they started, when they started
marching you out of Ordou, okay. And when you got to (?Harpout) and you said an American
missionary helped you there. (E: Yes) okay. That happened while, during the time when the
Turks were marching you?
E:
That was happening in the year of 1915, yes.
Y:
1915, okay.
E:
That's the year of 1915.
Y:
Okay, what happened after you were in (?Harpout).
E:
After I was living here two years, I with my aunt was alive, see, my mother's sister, she sent
me to (?Kurdistan). I says, a woman came and told my aunt, she says, what are doing he says
where are you sending him? So finally, I make my way to (?Erzindjian) escaped, see?
Escaped with 89 Armenians they bribed them, you know, gold. and I came (?Erzindjian) from
Erzindjian I came to Trebizonde.
Y:
Now what year was that?
E:
That was 1917. I came Trebizonde which my aunt was over there, orphans, Armenian
orphanage mother she was, Trebizonde. So I, they were afraid the Russians going to retreat,
so we were afraid we come back to about two is over here. I escaped to Georgia. The
Russians going to retreat, we afraid.
Y:
Oh, so the Russians were stationed in Trebizonde
E:
Because the Russians captured almost all this land (?left from)
Y:
And while the Russians were there then what were the Turks doing
in Trebizonde? Were the Russians holding them back?
E:
Yes, no soldiers, none, the population few, so when I escaped here, I lived two more years
1919, from 1917, the Revolutionary War came in Russia 1917 area about that. So I went and
came to Ordou again. My brother was alive. My brother's mother was alive. I stayed there
when the robbed my brother Mugar, my older brother says what are you staying in that
country, he says, you have property it doesn't belong to you, you life doesn't belong to you,
what are you staying over there. So I came to this country, year later my brother came, he died
in Boston in 19(?79)
Y:
While your brother lived in America did he sent money or help to (E: Yes) your family from
America.
E:
Yes. That's what he did, he always sent some money.
Y:
From 1915 on or from before 1915, for how long?
E:
1917, 1918
Y:
In 1917 and 1918.
E:
That's why I came to this country, or else I wouldn't be able to leave if I didn't have no brother,
he sent some money, I came
Y:
Where in America was he?
E:
He was in Lynn, Massachusetts.
Y:
In Lynn, Massachusetts, okay.
E:
I lived in Lynn 22 years.
Y:
Now, on the way, when you were being marched, could you please tell me again, you started
from Ordou, cause I'm confused on just a few things here, and where actually did the Turkish
soldiers take you, once you got out of Ordou while you were being deported?
E:
Well, (?one by one) they change those Turkish soldiers, you know.
Y:
They change.
E:
They come one or two days, they go back and succeed the other guy.
Y:
And what route were you on at that time once you left Ordou? Where did you go after that? For
instance, after you were in the caves, for instance, where did they take you?
E:
(?Ehgin), Arabkir, then on the road towards (?Kharpert). Arabkir and then on towards
(?Kharpert), yes. Those were the big (?cities).
Y:
And this took a period of how long, for how many, how long did you
march?
E:
About three months.
Y:
Three months?
E:
Yes.
Y:
Were you on foot that whole time?
E:
Foot? Yes. No shoes, nothing.
Y:
No shoes.
E:
Barefoot.
Y:
Did you ride mules at all, anytime?
E:
We had a horse, they took it away, they (?ride it)(laughs).
Y:
You had a horse, was that in Ordou that they took it away?
E:
Ordou, about 2-3 days further down on the march.
Y:
I see. And what atrocities did you see while you were being marched?
E:
What?
Y:
What tortures or hideous crimes did you see the Turks commit while you were being marched?
Could you describe those?
E:
How can I explairi this?
Y:
Well, whatever stands out in your mind, the most that you think would be most significant.
E:
The most, they want money, they want young girls, that's all they
were after. Money and girls.
Y:
Were there many Armenians along the way that did convert to Moslem?
E:
The Turks say couldn't be Moslem.
Y:
And means?
VE:
Infidel.
E:
Yes, infidel. They can't be, they don't believe Armenians, some of the Armenians want to
change their religion but the Turks didn't believe it.
Y:
In an article I read where you had an interview, you said you saw a child, that had nail holes in
his head.
E:
Yes.
Y:
Could you describe that, please? How you came across that?
E:
Before us, Armenians settled that village, you know?
Y:
Which village?
E:
That village that they were before us. And they left their children some of them woman they
keep their babies some of them. I said to this man this little kid six years old
Y:
Was the child dead or alive?
E:
He was dazed.
Y:
Dazed.
E:
Dazed told the women, Mama You couldn't answer. I saw with my own eyes.
Y:
This is all we want to know, exactly what they did.
E:
Savages.
Y:
Well, can you describe then some of these atrocities that you saw? Did you see women kill
their children? Did you hear of anything like that?
E:
One woman says, throw that water, no, no, she says, that woman I saw, she ran away to that
baby when her bosom she kept it, she didn't throw it away, you know.
Y:
Well, there were Armenian women that were trying to encourage some others, to put their
children aside so they could save themselves, is that true?
E:
Yes. (?A lot of them, they pretty young) and they marry into the Turks, you know, lots of them.
For instance, my sister.
Y:
Your sister married a Turk?
E:
Yes.
Y:
Was it a forced marriage then?
E:
I don't know.
Y:
How old was she at that time?
E:
She about 17.
Y:
17. And her name was? What again?
E:
(?Siranoosh)
Y:
(?Siranoosh) Do you know what happened to her?
E:
Last time we heard she married a Turkish soldier in
Y:
And what year was that?
E:
It was 1918, 1919 around there. I haven't seen her over 60 years. If she alive, I don't know it
(laughs) or dead.
Y:
No contacts or
E:
No, I don't know where she is.
Y:
What happened to the rest of your family? What happened to your mother?
E:
My mother died in Kharpert, that hospital where I was.
Y:
Oh, what did she die from? What did she have?
E:
Diarrhea, cholera
Y:
Cholera?
E:
(?Corela) they call it, influenza.
Y:
And what about the rest of your family?
E:
I had a brother
Y:
Okay Siranoosh was married, Dicran was in America, and Mugerditch?
E:
He died in Boston.
Y:
Oh, he finally came to America in what year
E:
And five years later, 8 years later he died, he was very, he lost his health in the
VE:
Tell her about Hagop.
E:
Hagop, my mother says a Turkish soldier take him to the Americans.
Y:
Now this is when you were being marched?
E:
When I was in the hospital she came to find me in the hospital. So this Turk, had a sword, you
know, looks at my mother, he throws the knife in the ground, you know,
Y:
Now who threw the knife on the ground?
E:
The Turkish soldier. He finds a donkey and puts my mother on the donkey, brings it to the
American hospital here
Y:
In Kharpet.
E:
So I ask her, Mama what happened Hagop? I yelled him, Hagop, Hagop
Y:
Now who was yelling?
E:
My mother yelled to my brother, Hagop, Hagop He disappeared, never
heard of him again.
VE:
Gendarme killed by beat
Y:
Oh, he died from a beating, but then you said disappeared, did he take the cow with him and
leave, escape?
E:
Where you going to escape? There's no way to escape.
Y:
So then Hagop was beaten to death then, right?
E:
Hagop was exhiled, like rest of them, see?
E:
So this Turk they did to my mother maybe I don't know, my mother was a godly woman,
probably his conscious didn't bother him or something, he found a donkey and brings it back to
the hospital (laughs). So Mama died there.
Y:
How old was Hagop at that time?
E:
He was older than my sister.
Y:
How old was Hagop though at that time? What age? He was about
E:
12-14, about 16 years old.
Y:
16 years old?
E:
About 16, yes he was.
Y:
And he was your youngest brother then?
E:
After Mugar and Dicran, 4 brothers and 1 sister. I'm the only one left
Y:
Have you seen anyone get buried alive?
E:
I took that lady, gendarme (?with his hands) me and other Armenian
Y:
In English.
E:
and in a few minutes she died, you know, you pull sick people on their legs, you know, they
drop, were dying
Y:
And the Turks would make you bury?
E:
Yes, we bury them
Y:
What does that mean?
E:
about 100, 200 yards.
Y:
Say it in English.
E:
Y:
In English.
VE:
Because she's taping.
E:
oh, they're taping.
Y:
Yes. Even if you repeat it, if you cari say that again in English.
E:
Oh, you ungodly people, why don't you put those in the houses, it's raining, we're laying down
over here, so that's they way. They died most of them died.
Y:
Why did the Turks choose you to do the burying? Why were you chosen to do that?
E:
I was able-bodied, you know. I wasn't sick or anything. It was later I got sick. I told one time, he
wants me to take care of the cows. Effendi, I told him, the thorns get in my foot. Oh, he starts
in back of the rifle, he says and you know what that means.
Y:
It means infidel. And so this burying you did was while you were being marched, like at
different stops.
E:
They were all sick people.
Y:
Old and sick people.
E:
We joined 10,000 Armenians, mixed among them, so when you settle down in a village, day or
two, next day you have about 2-300 people sick. So they hit you several times, you go walk,
fall down, they won't bother it, you know. You're sick, come on get up. You get up, you sick,
you can't walk, you fall down, they leave you, just like that, whosoever is able-bodied has got
to walk, got to go, you walk, walk, walk on the way and most of them and they came to dessert
in Syria
END OF TAPE