GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives
From: fauxdk@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [DNA] Viking haplogroup
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:21:48 +0000
Jim:
The evidence for Q and its relationship to Viking - era
migrations comes largely from private databses, and obviously
misclassified samples as seen in Helgason's Icelandic paper of
2000 which was termed "Branch A" and lumped into R1b (Hg1). The
first definitive statement about R1a being "the" Norse Viking
haplogroup (in the sense that R1b or I could be Danish Viking,
Anglo - Saxon, or other) in Britain was, to the best of my
knowledge, given by my colleague and business partner Jim Wilson
in his 2001 PNAS paper.
We are now actively exploring the apparent link between the
appearance of Q, K, and G2 in Sweden, Norway, as well as "the
colonies" of Orkney, Shetland, Faroe, and Iceland as Viking
"invader" (or colonizer) DNA footprints. The full results from
our mega study will not be available for at least 3 years (but
will include 37 marker haplotypes, SNP testing using all known
markers, and surnames and grandfathers place of birth). By the
way we will be doing the same thing with mtDNA.
Preliminary indications are that Q is a strong indicator of
Viking ancestry if, for example, found in a person whose
ancestors's have been in Britain since at least Medievel times. I
must add a caveat, however. It is possible that some of the Q or
other haplogroups noted above may have arrived with Roman
mercinaries (e.g., the Scythian Alans stationed along Hadrian's
Wall). However, if Q is found in Shetland or Orkney etc., in
someone with an aboriginal surname, then, considering the
settlement history of those areas, there can be little doubt that
the haplotype originated in Norway, and probably in Viking times
(although there was movement of population between Norway and her
colonies until the time of the Scottish take over in 1468).
Hope I answered your question.
David.
GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives
From: "J. M. Freed" <jmfreed@midohio.net>
Subject: Viking haplogroup
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:56:08 -0400
References:
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<091420041758.6484.414731330004DB93000019542200763704050
B989A0E00@comcast.net>
David,
Clarification please: Below you mention that only R1a is "the
only incontrovertible Viking signature". In an earlier message
today, you stated, "only haplogroup R1a or Q can prove Viking
heritage".
Is there no strong evidence of Q being a Viking signature, or in
your second statement are you stating that R1a is the exact same
as the Q haplogroup?
Jim
----- Original Message ----From: <fauxdk@comcast.net>
To: <GENEALOGY-DNA-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] The Irish are not celts, say experts (fwd)
> Ken:
>
> With all due respects you missed the point of my post - to
inform Mr. Viking that without DNA testing he will be hard
pressed to convince scientists like myself that his ancestry can
be traced as far back as 800AD.
>
> You are performing pioneering work on haplogroup I1a, but to
this point the only unassailable work is that published by Jim
Wilson (2000 etc.) indicating that in Britain, the only
incontrovertible Viking signature is R1a. Your haplotype analysis
is a step in the right direction, and after peer review and
publication your work will doubtless add another element to the
mix. To repeat, I was speaking of what is accepted in the
scientific community today as expressed in the published
literature, trying to make a point, not provide a comprehensive
overview of the subject.
>
> David.
GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives
From: David Faux <fauxdk@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Y chromosome haplotype R1a
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 07:56:37 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To:
<<NGBBJAIJELIPIIJLDFIKIEJJCOAA.MHARPER8@housto
n.rr.com>>
Yes indeed Michael. R1a is found at relatively high
frequency in Mongolia, the Russian Atlai, India and Eastern
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Europe. It's requency is as low as zero in places like
County Connaught in western Ireland, and below 5% elsewhere
in Ireland. In Weale's "A Y Chromosome Census of the
British Isles" he picked two places in Ireland to sample,
one on the east coast (1% R1a), and one in central Ireland
(0% R1a). According to James F. Wilson and others, R1a in
Britain is the only sure haplogroup sign of Norse Viking
ancestry - from the west coast of Norway in all
probability. As you doubtless know places like Dublin and
Wexford were places of Viking settlement, and the Vikings
at one time or others made it up most of the navigable
rivers in Ireland. Actually I am surprised that the
percentage of R1a is so low in Ireland based on these
historical facts.
David F.
Michael Harper8 <MHARPER8@houston.rr.com> wrote:
You may be correct, but both my third cousin and I with
ancestors known to
be in Co. Monaghan from around 1700 (via Scotland) are R1a
and probably
R1a1. My SRY is 10831.2Thoughts?
Dr. David K. Faux, P.O. Box 192, Seal Beach, CA, 90740, USA
fauxdk@yahoo.com
fauxd@hotmail.com
www.davidkfaux.org
GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives
From: "Mark MacDonald" <mark@macdonaldlaw.com>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Re: DNA Haplogroup I--Viking or AngloSaxon?
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:14:06 -0600
In-Reply-To:
<<571CF05B2EDBF4479C40CF29EC0C591E154B6D@excha
nge.conrad.local>>
If your paternal line is not Jewish , comes from Ireland ,
western Scotland or the Hebrides , and didn't do an Ellis
Island name change, think Viking (Norway or Denmark) and
ignore the eastern Europe parallels for your principal
search. The recent article on the Ashkenazi Levites
explains that group. R1a started in Hungary, Poland,Ukraine
and went north to Sweden, west to Norway and southwest to
Iceland, Shetland,Ireland Scotland and England If the
foregoing conditions apply,your gaelicized family name was
probably close to Mac Shenoig, son of the harper.I would be
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interested in comparing your markers to our Clan Donald
chiefs.
Mark Mac Donald
-----Original Message----From: Mike Harper [mailto:mharper@conrad.org]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 1:19 PM
To: GENEALOGY-DNA-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: [DNA] Re: DNA Haplogroup I--Viking or AngloSaxon?
I hadn't checked against the REO for some time, and was
amazed at the result.
I am R1a confirmed by SNP.
Exact Match
Countries - Belarus, China, Czech Republic, Denmark,
England, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Romania,
Russia and Unknown.
16 total matches of which by the comment section 3 were
Ashkenazi or Ashkenazi-Levite, I Uygur and 1 Native
Siberian, and 10 not specified.
(2 matches each in Denmark, England and Russia, all others
1/country).
One Step mutations
Austria, Belarus, Croatia, England, France, Germany,
Holland, Hungary, Iceland, India, Ireland, Kazakhstan,
Lithuania, Mongolia, Poland, Romania, Russia, Shetland, Sri
Lanka, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Ukraine, United Kingdom,
Unknown, and Uzbekistan
98 total matches of which 50 were Ashkenazi or AshkenaziLevite, 1 Russian, 1 Native Siberian, 1 Arab, and 44 not
specified. Most frequent matches by country: Austria 9,
Belarus 6, England 6, Germany 14, Hungary 5, India 9,
Lithuania 5, Poland 9, Russia 5,
The pattern is the same for 2 step mutations. For 25
markers 1 23/25 match from Ireland with my third cousin.
To conserve space I haven't included the 2 step mutation
values, but it is more of the same.
Does any one care to comment on this concordance.
-----Original Message----From: Ggsar@aol.com [mailto:Ggsar@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 4:13 PM
To: GENEALOGY-DNA-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: [DNA] Re: DNA Haplogroup I--Viking or Anglo-Saxon?
Hello List,
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On the 12 Marker DNA Test of FTDNA I show the following
results on the
Recent Ethnic Origins:
__________________
==============================
To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online
genealogy
records, go to:
http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=
1237
This thread:

[DNA] Re: DNA Haplogroup I--Viking or Anglo-Saxon? by
Ggsar@aol.com

Re: [DNA] Re: DNA Haplogroup I--Viking or Anglo-Saxon? by
David Faux <fauxdk@yahoo.com>

Re: [DNA] Re: DNA Haplogroup I--Viking or Anglo-Saxon? by
Ggsar@aol.com

Re: [DNA] Re: DNA Haplogroup I--Viking or Anglo-Saxon? by
Ggsar@aol.com

RE: [DNA] Re: DNA Haplogroup I--Viking or Anglo-Saxon? by
"Mike Harper" <mharper@conrad.org>

RE: [DNA] Re: DNA Haplogroup I--Viking or Anglo-Saxon? by "Mark MacDonald"
<mark@macdonaldlaw.com>

RE: [DNA] Re: DNA Haplogroup I--Viking or AngloSaxon? by David Faux <fauxdk@yahoo.com>
GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives
From: David Faux <fauxdk@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [DNA] Re: DNA Haplogroup I--Viking or AngloSaxon?
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 12:20:46 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To:
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<<571CF05B2EDBF4479C40CF29EC0C591E154B6D@excha
nge.conrad.local>>
Hi Mike:
I have seen a lot of R1a profiles, thanks to my Shetland
Project. Your pattern is entirely consistent with Norse
Viking ancestry from the west coast of Norway - but only if
you know that your ancestors are from the British Isles.
If not, then.....................
David F.
=====================================================
http://marshdna.arrrg.org/DNAinfo.htm
A secondary goal for participants in this project, would be the chance to learn something of their "deep
ancestry". By this I mean indications of what broad tribal origins they stem from in the direct male line,
over the past 10s of thousands of years. The genetic scientists have developed basically a family tree of
mankind, which identifies different "haplogroups", which are related groupings, and this enables us to
identify the corner of the big picture that we individually fit into. (see
http://www.familytreedna.com/haplotree.html.) In my own case for example, my family originates in East
Anglia in England. I have DNA matches with persons in Norway and Iceland, and most other matches are
countries settled by Vikings. The possibility is that I descend from a Viking ancestor who settled in East
Anglia 1200 years ago, when there historically was Viking settlement in the area. Alternatively, William
the Conqueror and the Normans were of Norwegian viking descent (Norman= Northman= Norway
Viking), and if my Y-DNA comes from Viking origins, it might have arrived in England in 1066 via
Normandy. As the DNA project develops, I may be able to learn more information about my ancestors
1,000 years ago. Further back, I belong to haplogroup R1b, who are thought to be descendants of
Paleolithic hunter-gatherers, who arrived in Europe from Central Asia, before the last Ice Age about 40,000
years ago (Aurignacian culture). During the last Ice Age, my haplogroup suggests my ancestors "wintered
over" in the Northern Spain area, then about 12,000 years ago, moved north as the ice retreated.
=============================================
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rutledgedna/haplogroups.html
What we know about the Haplogroups R1a, R1b, and I
The publication "The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y
Chromosome Perspective" outlines the migration path of our ancestors into Europe. This is the main source
of information that I used to write the summary below which showing that our ancestors have lived in
Europe since the Upper Paleolithic (Literally, the "Old Stone Age", from 40,000 to 12,000 BCE) times.
Our ancestors with the M173 genetic marker (which includes haplogroups R1a and R1b) entered Europe
from the east and diffused from east to west about 40,000 to 35,000 years ago spreading the Aurignac
culture. This is the first culture of Homo sapiens sapiens to spread through central and western Europe and
there descendents represent about 50% of todays Europeans. Aurignacian is the earliest subdivision of the
Upper Paleolithic technological phase in western Europe (from 40,000 to 27,000 years ago). It is
characterized by the use of bone tools and blade flint technology, with scrapers and burins.
During the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM, "the peak of the Ice Age", from 20,000 to 13,000 years ago)
humans were forced to vacate Central Europe, with the exception of a refuge in the northern Balkans.
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The ancestors of Haplogroup R1a expanded back into Europe from the Ukraine after the LGM 10,000 to
12,000 years ago. R1a is virtually absent in Western Europe. Its frequency increases eastward and reaches a
maximum in Poland, Hungary, and Ukraine. R1a is indicative of "Viking blood" when seen in the British
Isles.
The ancestors of Haplogroup R1b expanded back into Europe from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain) after the
LGM 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. The frequency of R1b decreases from west to east, being most frequent
in Basques and virtually absent near the Ukraine.
The ancestors of Haplogroup I (defined by the M170 genetic marker) arrived from the Middle East 20,000
to 25,000 years ago and are associated with the Gravettian culture. Gravettian is the second subdivision of
the Upper Paleolithic technological phase in western Europe (from 27,000 to 21,000 years ago).
Haplogroup I is most frequent in central Eastern Europe and also occurs in Basques and Sardinians. This
haplogroup is believed to have been common within Viking populations.
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