After Theme 2, 2nd Seminar Fall 05
February 16, 2016
After Theme 2 – 2nd seminar
It’s ok to work on the building blocks to a question
Applying Concrete/Formal Ops to video games
Work through examples
Best examples to me:
p. 117 suppose coal is white:
concrete op: “No it’s not”
formal op: “Ok…now what?”
p. 119 middle
concrete op: can’t repeat process or explain it
formal op: can, and confirms their answer
p.121
concrete op: they interfere with their own process
If you’ve tried to help a 8-10 year build a model car or plane (follow directions), I
think you’ve experienced this
p. 124
concrete op: can’t resist counter suggestion
“Maybe it’s actually this way…” “Ok”
Clearest statements
p. 118 middle
concrete op children can typically only reason successfully when…one variable
p. 122 top
“Though both kids of problems are concrete problems [about stuff you can see]…
answer requires more than observation”
Rich theory
p. 116 free of past/present
p.129 pure logic is a kind of adolescent egocentrism
p. 139 rebellious? No “constantly meditating on society”
After Theme 2, 2nd Seminar Fall 05
February 16, 2016
How are Erikson and Piaget articles tied?
Last section of Wadsworth/Piaget:
Impact of thinking on personality
p. 136 –140… the reformer
p. 139 the seemingly anti-social adolescent cares a lot about society, they are
constantly meditating on society.
Early in each stage we are egocentric, Wadsworth p. 129
“adolescents apply a criterion of pure logic in evaluating reasoning about human
events.” “not yet differentiate between the logical world and the ‘real’ world.”
Erikson –
p. 341 bottom:
“For the idealistic adolescent’s imagery is typically one of purest white and
blackest black” attain white, phobic avoidance of black
Thesis / antithesis of Jews - Superhuman and apeman
Dichotomies: good mother / bad mother (p. 338, bottom, p. 339 bottom)
Dawn’s question - arrogance
As one seminar asked, perhaps Hitler was too good at formal operations.
p. 130 Wadsworth - personality and the self
Very similar to internal and external we have been talking about
Very similar to Erikson’s personal needs and social needs.
Erikson is not concern about Hitler as an individual, but
how he used his individual story to create a myth that
capture the psyche of many in his country
Why did it captivate a country?
Quote from p. 327/328 we read a couple of days ago
He used his (personal) hysteria well
basic energy – specific historical, mythic form
p.336 middle – dad,
After Theme 2, 2nd Seminar Fall 05
February 16, 2016
p.338 bottom
p. 337 bottom
p. 339 middle
p. 342 middle
p. 343 top
What was it about the father that Hitler didn’t want?
D329 dad drunk tyrant, mom …
Walls move in
Top p. 336 “extreme harshness without inner authority breeds bitterness, fear,
and vindictiveness.”
(Erikson repeats this)
As unstained (pure) adolescent, march with other adolescents.
Who was the father for working class, middle class German men? Who had they
followed to heights and then were let down in defeat, humiliation, and economic
despair?
P. 339 middle – “fate uses wars to weigh nations and men”
See combination of individual and national fate?
The history of stereotypes, and how kids come to use
them
Becky – quote “people are bred white”
Hitler was not Aryan – not tall, blonde. Part Jewish
Stereotypes are recycled and reformulated. It is as if the past lays down
weapons next to child, at his and her feet. When they are angry at someone,
they reach for something that hurts them, and pick up whatever is near, even if
they don’t understand it.
You’ll see 5-9 year olds saying “you’re gay” or using cuss words they don’t
understand.
They shout at others what’s been shouted at them. “You’re a poo poo head.”
“No, you’re a poo poo head”… so they learn to label others with the things about
themselves that have been teased.
Like the example from Anzal du’a : Wharton poem on p.7 – calling Mexicans
pillagers, rapist, when they did it themselves (Freudian projection)
And the phrase kids still use – Indian Giver
After Theme 2, 2nd Seminar Fall 05
February 16, 2016
Not just names, but images, examples, and bigots still alive creating hate
propaganda today.
The Southern Poverty Law Center monitors over 100 hate groups active in
America today, creating free music for youth, denying the existence of the
Holocaust, etc.
These things are so woven into everyday culture we don’t think about it…
Do you know what the kids’ tune used to be? “Eenie meanie miney mo, catch a
tiger by the toe”?
Or what squaw refers to on a woman’s body?
Or the history of Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, and Little Black Sambo?
The names of tribes – who gets to name us:
Who gets to name whom?
Other's Name
Sioux
Navajo
Anastazi
Indian
Europe / European
Meaning
Ojibwa/Chippewa
name for thief
Spanish for knife
Navajo for enemies
from India,
Columbus's mistake
Own Name
Lakota
came into being
about 1500 or
1600?
before that, they just
were
Dine
?
native American?
Meaning
friends (for group of
tribes)
people
What makes a healthy identity?
“It’s how you are raised”
break apart by stages – be more specific
What does twisted hope look like?
Twisted will?
Twisted autonomy and shame?
Twisted competence?
How do each of these lead to problems dealing with life?
“Don’t use as excuse”
compare to Officer Krupke, Hitler Youth examples in “Dialogue/Eight stages”
After Theme 2, 2nd Seminar Fall 05
February 16, 2016
Some people fear change
Generational – fear or accept change?
Also consider that history and economics shape the kinds of changes you need
to go through.
Compare to assimilation and accommodation
Response to student questions
Heidi
Do:rr – girl’s career choice
1. Why did they ask her what she wanted to be when the set of choices was so
narrow?
Why did they make her stand why the older women sat?
Why didn’t they mention motherhood and office work in the first set of choices?
Why motherhood second, office as a default?
How do these impact her identity process? Cause diffusion? How do they set
her up for a particular relationship with the despotic boss?
Serve the fuehrer in some way – how is this a classic example of Erikson’s
psycho and social needs, psych and social outputs of identity?
Again, I’d ask how his particular childhood issues became captivating for country
– how? Why? How does Erikson’s theory gives us a map to that answer?
Hitler and mom – 2 images
2. I have notes and references in the after seminar paper about this.
How is this related to the black and white way in which early adolescents view
their newfound formal operational skill? Their way of approaching identity early
in adolescence?
How is it related to “negative identity” stuff in 1st Erikson reading (Dialogue)?
Hitler and his beliefs about Jewish people.
3. Yes. Very similar process to #2. The connection between 2 & 3 is the central
part of the answer to #1.
After Theme 2, 2nd Seminar Fall 05
February 16, 2016
Charlene
1. Erikson – adolescent – complicated vs. simple answer
nice quote
p. 342/343
How is it an answer to the identity conflict?
Typically, adolescents have to merge and struggle with conflicts between what
parents believe, what their emerging profession believes, friends, etc…
An answer, not a good answer.
2. p. 130 Wadsworth
we talked about in class
self
personality
identity – as the struggle between the gears
Kiet
Kiet Do
Psych 205
10/18/05
Theme 2 Question 2
1. (Erik Erikson, Hitler) pg. 329 - hates parents
“The equation suggests itself that in Hitler’s national as well as domestic
imagery, the young mother betrays the longing son for a senile tyrant.” Does
Hitler view that as a drive to find other comfort since his mother is viewed useless
to him? How does Hitler transition himself from the comfort of family to the
comfort of knowledge? It goes on to say, “This interpretation would suggest that
in Hitler’s case the love for his young mother and the hate for his old father
assumed morbid proportions, and that it was this conflict which drove him to love
and to hate and compelled him to save or destroy people and peoples who really
“stand for” his mother and father.” So after he came into power, is one of the
driving reasons of punishing people originate from neglect from his mother and
father?
Good questions.
Keep in mind the piece above about…
Erikson is not concern about Hitler as an individual, but how he used his
individual story to create a myth that capture the psyche of many in his country
Notice how this IS the Oedipal conflict. Loved mom, but she abandoned me for
dad. There’s a line about Hitler offering for Nazis to march as a band of
After Theme 2, 2nd Seminar Fall 05
February 16, 2016
adolescents who have never compromised – they seek solace in each other
against the evil dad and the mom who betrayed them.
2. (Erik Erikson, Hitler) pg. 343 – Hitler and the Jewish people
“On such a foundation Hitler offered a simple racial dichotomy of cosmic
dimensions: the German (soldier) versus the Jew. The Jew is described as
small, black, and hairy all over; his back bent, his feet are flat; his eyes squint,
and his lips smack; he has an evil smell, is promiscuous, and loves to deflower,
impregnate, and infect blond girls. The Aryan is tall, erect, light, without hair on
chest and limbs; his glance, walk, and talk are stramm, his greeting the
outstretched arm. He is passionately clean in his habits. He would not
knowingly touch a Jewish girl—except in a brothel.” How is it that the Germans
cannot see that they have been manipulated? This is a false sense of character
and stereotype that does not factor in with the people there. Does Hitler use
adolescents that have an identity crisis and need of self-belonging to his
advantage?
Yes. Nice connection to your #1.
See Heidi #3 (and #2)
Not all Germans. Enough to create mass frenzy – your question is what causes
Erikson to suggest strong unconscious forces. Note where he quotes about the
power of imagery, etc.
Note in Dialogue reading about the energy adolescents have to put to their faith
Younger German girls Q:
See Heidi #1.
Debbie Hawkins
Psych 205
10/18/05
THEME 2 QUESTIONS
Part 2
Erikson Hitler’s mom
1.) On page 328 & 329 of “Childhood and Society” By Erik Erikson, he states
“Hitler’s mother was twenty three years younger than his father: and, as we shall
see, the mother, as a good woman of her day, valiantly stood up for the man who
beat her. The father was a drunkard and a tyrant. The equation suggests itself
that in Hitler’s national as well as domestic imagery, the young mother betrays
the longing son for a senile tyrant.” This dominance of the father and
submissiveness of mother seemed to be the norm in Germany back then, so
why was Hitler’s family experience any different than any other young boy at the
After Theme 2, 2nd Seminar Fall 05
February 16, 2016
time and why was he the only on that turned out the way he did? Did the twenty
three year age difference between his parents make the dominance shown by
the father worse than it would be if the ages were more closely matched? And,
because of the age difference did his mother see his father as more of a father
figure, which in turn caused her to be “the good women of her day” and valiantly
stand up for the man who beat her? Could this age difference also be part of the
cause of Hitler’s great hate for his father, by making the father out to be more of
a villain by beating up the young helpless mother?
See Kiet and Heidi’s questions.
Erikson – Hitler mom
2.) On page 329 Erikson states, “This interpretation would suggest that in Hitler’s
case the love for his young mother and the hate for his old father assumed
morbid proportions, and that it was this conflict which drove him to love and to
hate and compelled him to save or destroy people and peoples who really “stand
for” his mother and his father.” Does this mean that the hate Hitler directed
towards other countries was repressed hatred related to the hate for his father
and the love for his mother was directed towards what he called Mother
Germany? In other words, because his father repressed his mother, he related
the hate for his father to any country that repressed Germany and he directed the
love for his mother towards what he called Mother Germany?
Responded to above
Melissa
1. Wadsworth p. 116
Present focus – kids freak out when wrong
I’d encourage you to separate 2-3 year olds, 4-5 year olds, and 6-12 year olds in
this question
Hitler, I’d think both Piaget and Erikson would say, was too formal operational, in
an egocentric way.
Discussed above in
How are Erikson and Piaget articles tied?
2. Do:rr
Dorr
I think the jealousy piece that you discussed in seminar was very insightful. Take
it to the identity process in general. How is the teen’s identity shaped by the
answers of the previous generation? Anyone who settled may carry jealousy and
After Theme 2, 2nd Seminar Fall 05
February 16, 2016
vindictiveness to the teen who questions their elder’s answer and who feels free
to choose different paths.
Similarly, how would someone who is more toward the healthy end of identity
respond to a teen?
Nicole
1. Erikson p. 331 father / mother – walls draw in
What was your mother like when he wasn’t around?
Remember, kids are very attuned to change, especially change important
consequences for them. Notice how Hitler ends up hating his mom (mythically)
for betraying his comfort for his dad. It’s not just about dad, it’s about mom, mom
changing, and you being noticed.
2. Erikson p. 338
Described in previous questions and notes above.
Keep in mind how it relates to your identity in general. The next theme is
attachment – how was this triangle (you-mom-dad) a template for later
relationships?
Jennifer
1. Do:rr – Letter to guy, no reply
I think you’re totally on the right track. Her identity is wrapped in this guy, a guy
she sees once. A guy whose feelings are expressed through a propaganda
poem. Notice the title of the piece.
How does it relate to Brumberg?
2. Him and dad, p. 332
Settling would break the fantasy, the two fantasies that are polar opposites (see
black and white quote) – take the list of opposites – put all that go together on
one side, the other 1/2 on the other side. See how they make two extreme
ideals? Part of the identity crisis is merging them, settling on some combination.
Tanya
1. Erikson – Hitler and the Jewish people.
I think Erikson’s thinking about Jewish people has some flaws. Many Jews are
not intellectuals or running big businesses. Many Jews did lots of working class
jobs.
They were kept from farming in many communities for decades (centuries?), so
did more business stuff in those places.
After Theme 2, 2nd Seminar Fall 05
February 16, 2016
Did he hate the Jews because the were small and hairy like he said on pg. 343 or
because Jews had a strong identity and a good foundation in their life?
I believe Erikson falls into the “model minority” stereotype that happens to some
Asian Americans. It’s ok because it’s nice, some people think. “Asians work
hard and don’t complain. Asians are good at math.” Etc. It limits a person’s
being. Also, as I mentioned with tools and stereotypes, it can be picked up by
others and used as a weapon.
2. Do:rr – girl’s choice of careers
We have to ask how limited they may have been, or seemed, before him?