1 Combining symbolic interactionist and in-depth hermeneutic approaches to interpretation of narrative interview texts Anders Siig Andersen, Ph.d., Associate Professor, and Rebecca Savery Trojaborg, B.Sc (University of Leeds), Research Assistant Roskilde University, Denmark Introduction The aim of life history research is to contribute to the production of 'Sociological Imagination', a term coined by C.Wright Mills (Mills 1959); that is, to elucidate the intertwinement of society and subjectivity (‘Structuration’). The findings of research into the nature and complexity of this 'intertwinement' are to a large extent dependent upon the methodological basis for the production and interpretation of individual interview texts. This paper attempts to combine symbolic interactive and in-depth hermeneutic approaches to interpretation of narrative interview texts. Our interest in combining social interactionist and psychoanalytic approaches to interpretation stems from our theoretic understanding of life history learning. We assume that learning encompasses collective and individual aspects. Through learning, individual and collective histories are intertwined in subjectivity while the individual person simultaneously comprises a unique subject in relation to society. Life history learning involves the relation between the individual's course of life and the conscious, non-conscious and unconscious aspects of the experienced course of life within a wider interactive and societal context1. In the paper we introduce Fritz Schütze's methodology based on Symbolic Interactionism and conversation theory and an in-depth hermeneutic approach inspired by the Free Association Narrative Interview (FANI) methodology developed by Wendy Hollway and Tony Jefferson (2000). We present the context for an autobiographical spontaneous narrative interview with Karen, a 50-year-old office clerk employed in a Danish State organisation subjected to reorganisational changes. Subsequently, we provide an example of a symbolic interactionist interpretation encompassing a portrait of Karen and an analysis of process structures, coping strategies and the gestalt of Karen’s life history. We illustrate an in-depth hermeneutic interpretation with the analysis of a theme extracted from Karen’s interview as well as with an example of unconscious intersubjectivity and the role of the researcher in producing data. The in-depth hermeneutic analysis applies a different type of interpretation with a theoretic basis that differs from Schütze's methodology. Rather than effectuating a contrasting interpretative result, it provides a deeper understanding of Karen’s situation. The context applied in the interpretation of the interview is two-fold. On a general level, it consists of the societal institutions, norms and expectations that have contributed to the formation of the interviewee’s course of life and life history learning from childhood to her present situation. On a more specific level, it consists of the learning environment in her The paper is produced in the context of the Life History Project and the ’Office-Project’, and in the research setting of the Adult Education Research Group at Roskilde University, Denmark. Both projects are funded by the Danish Research Council for the Humanities. 1 2 present work-life. In the first case the intertwinement between subjectivity and society is interpreted through the interview and by applying our general knowledge of societal development throughout the past 50 years. In the second case, it is interpreted by relating the analysis of the life history to an analysis of the interviewee’s workplace as a learning environment (Andersen, Jensen & Sommer 2001)2. Methodology Autobiographical spontaneous narratives Fritz Schütze is known for providing an extensive theoretical and methodological foundation for the empirical study of biography with the use of autobiographical spontaneous narratives. In line with Symbolic Interactionism, Schütze regards life history as a sequential development comprising reciprocity and reflexivity within three interactive dimensions: The actor-actor dimension (the significant other). The actor-structure dimension (the generalised other). The identity process dimension, where the actor relates reflexively to him/herself. Schütze describes the main content of Symbolic Interactionism as follows: "All that is social including what is characterised as regulations for the behaviours of members of society - is produced through social interaction, reproduced through social interaction and altered through social interaction" (Schütze, 1987a). The analysis and understanding of society thus presupposes the analysis and understanding of the fundamental processes of interaction. Schütze uses the concept of 'Process Structures' in reference to structures within the autobiographical spontaneous narrative that concern the formation of identity and its interplay with social actors and structures. The concept of 'Process Structures' comprises the central point in arguing for why and how autobiographical spontaneous narratives may provide insight into life history and biography. Schütze employs four types of 'process structures': 2 'Biographic process structures' characterised by being the result of the person's intentions in relation to activities and events presented in the narrative. 'Institutional process structures' characterised by common expectations towards institutions and organisations. Negative or positive 'trajectories' where the 'action space' is altered due to heteronome non-expected and/or unpredictable conditions of nature or social systems. 'Transformational processes' involving sudden or surprising changes emerging from within the person. The interview is produced in the context of a larger research project with the aim of elucidating the connections between a dynamic situated perspective on learning (the learning environment) and a dynamic subjective perspective on learning (life history learning). In this paper the life history perspective is pushed to the foreground, whereas the results from our analyses of the learning environment are introduced and referred to as background knowledge. 3 Several process structures may occur together or over time in the individual narrative and they may occur in conflict with each other although not necessarily involving the conscious recognition of the narrator3. Autobiographical spontaneous narratives are influenced by cultural norms that provide a communication framework for the presentation of content (e.g. narrative pressures and cognitive figures). The autobiographical spontaneous narratives involve two timeframes: 1. The timeframe of actions and events presented in the account 2. The timeframe of the current communication Two perspectives are correspondingly applied - one, a 'naïve' actionfinal perspective in concordance with the perspective of experience at the time (where one in a given situation cannot predict the proceeding events), the other, a retrospective causal perspective defined by the current communicative situation. This means, for instance, that important events can be indicated through speech before they take place; that is, significant aspects - such as characteristics and social relations of the main actor - may be implied before they become relevant in the narrative (Andersen & Larsen 2001, p. 28). The two timeframes and two perspectives often appear in narrative and reflexive passages respectively within the overall narrative. According to Schütze, the narrative passages are analogous to the experience of events in corresponding sequences of events. This means that the content and structure of sequences of events correspond to the way the experiences were embedded in memory. Apart from illustrating the personal experience of events and the relations between these, the narrative also displays the experiential perspective and inner life experiences of the narrator that correspond to the experiences. The passages elicit transformations in the 'I'-identity and 'we'identity of central groups (Schütze 1987b, p.32). The narrative expresses the spatial social and emotional context of the narrator's experience of events; that is, how she/he has seen, heard and experienced the events and the internal states involved in the experience, i.e. what she/he planned, how she/he reacted emotionally etc. Through the natural segmentation of the account and the focusing processes, the phases and the points paid attention to within the structure of the narrator's experience are elicited in correspondence to previous processes of action and suffering in regard to time and emphases. In contrast to the narrative passages, the reflexive passages are 'digital', reflecting on and evaluating the past. The reflexive and evaluating passages are to a large extent connected with the narrator's expectations of the way in which the interactive partner perceives and reacts to the narration and are thereby influenced by the interviewer as ‘significant other’ as well as representing assumed legitimate social discourses (the generalised other). Unfolded autobiographical spontaneous narratives encompass a complex structure; they contain both intertwined and separate descriptive and narrative passages as well as reflexive, evaluating and theorising passages. 3 Like Habermas, Schütze argues that social reproduction is not autonomously carried out through the intentions and acknowledgement of members of society. The actions of actors are not only co-ordinated through processes of understanding but also through unintentional processes that are seldom recognised within everyday practices (Habermas, 1981, p. 225). However, Schütze's methodology is based on a symbolic interactive (Mead) and knowledge sociological paradigm (Berger & Luckmann) and he abstains from the use of concepts corresponding to the definition of a system world devised by Habermas. 4 Apart from the two time frames and the two perspectives (the naïve final and the retrospective causal), the tale of a person's life also exposes the internal negotiations of the narrator; that is, the dimension of processes of identity formation within the dimensions of interaction comprised by the life history. In the autobiographical spontaneous narratives the narrator relates to him/herself reflexively - both in terms of the actual internal negotiations back then and retrospectively in the interview situation. Both types of reflection are established in dynamic relation to the possibility of re-experiencing and the 'naïve' final action orientation constituted by the analogy of the narrative passages to the flow of recollection attached to the course of actions. With the aim of producing an autobiographical spontaneous narrative, the interviewee is encouraged to talk about his/her life. The interviewee introduces the story with a ratification of the narrative framework, that is, by accepting the role as the narrator. The proceeding interview contains three main parts (see Andersen & Larsen, 2001). 1. The main autobiographical narrative. 2. The unfolding of tangential narrative potential. 3. Eliciting the interviewee's theories and evaluations, as well as elaborating on contradictions in the narration and themes that are of specific interest to the researcher. According to Schütze, the result is an interview text displaying and explicating a social process with its continuous development and change of social identity (Schütze 1983, p. 286). The narrative comprises both the biographic depth of the narrator's experience and the breadth of the historical social and collective contexts related to those experiences. In order to uncover process structures in the interview text, Schütze has developed an analytic strategy consisting of three stages: the text is first formally divided into narrative segments and suprasegments, followed by a sequential analysis according to the chronological order of the segments and suprasegments of the text and finally, an analysis of the personal perspectives and evaluations of events (made by the narrator) appearing in the text. The tension between the actor-actor, actor-structure and self-identity dimensions is interpreted within a complex framework of time, causality and type of text. The interpretation includes the uncovering of tensions between: The way the events were memorised and interpreted at the time they took place. The transformation of the interpretation as life proceeds due to novel circumstances and experiences and The account and interpretation in the interview situation in the context of the current situation and communication partner. The end result is an analysis of a biographic 'gestalt' involving a display of the dynamic relations between process structures appearing in the text. In-depth hermeneutic approach Schütze’s view that autobiographical spontaneous narratives constitute a relatively enclosed cultural form (e.g. narrative pressures, cognitive figures, interplay between narrative and 5 reflexive elements) provides the basis for his development of an interpretative method. Schütze does not intend to explore psychic defences although he recognises the existence of 'fading out mechanisms' in relation to traumatic or culturally illegitimate content and he does not apply psychoanalytical theory. In contrast to, for instance, the Free Association Narrative Interview (FANI - see below) methodology (Hollway & Jefferson, 2000), the production of empirical data in autobiographical spontaneous narratives does not aim to expose unconscious psychic defences. In this paper, we argue that the psychoanalytic interpretation of autobiographical spontaneous narratives does not necessitate a research method directly aimed at exposing defence mechanisms. This presupposes that unconscious dynamics will be detectable even in the relatively regulated cultural form of autobiographical spontaneous narratives. The precondition is that symbols comprise symptoms of psychodynamic forces and defence mechanisms as well as cultural content (Bjerrum, 2002); the former may be concealed in the text but can nevertheless be interpreted through the application of an in-depth hermeneutic approach. According to the German psychologist and cultural theorist Lorenzer (Lorenzer, 1988), the interpretation of the unconscious is mediated through 'scenic' understanding. This involves an, in principle, indefinite amount of 'scenes' comprising variations over a constant main theme, which remains concealed ('repetitive compulsion'). The situations of the appearances of certain 'scenes' are thus explored: which object-, person- and symbol relations in which contexts. It is then possible to explore connections between individual 'scenes' and propose different readings of their content. It is subsequently possible to move from the level of appearances to the articulation of hypotheses on what lies behind the scene through an interpretation of similar scenic situations/articulations. Lorenzer argues for the role of theory in relation to perceiving empirical phenomena as expressions of latent dynamics. The theory facilitates the interpretation of phenomena within a coherent theoretical framework, however, Lorenzer stresses that the theory must not remove what is interpreted from the gestalt of the person's life experience. The understanding must contain the polarisation of personal insight and theoretic analysis (Lorenzer 1988, p. 79). In our in-depth hermeneutic interpretation we draw upon Lorenzer's basic understanding of indepth hermeneutics. Inspired by the FANI-methodology, we apply a psychodynamic, Kleinian perspective onto a narrative interview. We do not focus on the repression of internal, natural drives but on the defence against internal and external anxiety-inducing objects. Our methodology is based on the presumption that anxiety is an inherent part of the human existence, manifesting itself from infancy, in which the infant struggles to protect its integrity from threats of annihilation. In order to defend against anxiety, the infant - and later the adult makes use of intersubjective, unconscious defence mechanisms (Guntrip, 1977; Hinshelwood, 1991). Whenever the self encounters internal, intolerable pain and anxiety, the self is split into 'good' and 'bad' objects; the splitting of the self invariably involves a corresponding splitting of external objects. The objects are perceived to be either wholly 'good' (i.e. idealised) or 'bad' in order to avoid the confluence of the two (Hinshelwood, 1991). In order to rid the self of anxiety-inducing aspects, internal 'bad' objects are disowned and projected onto an external object. As a means to enhance a secure sense of self, the 'good' external objects are unconsciously identified with and introjected. This state of a split internal and external world is referred to as the paranoid-schizoid position. If, however, the person is able to contain his/her 6 anxiety, the split objects become less separate and the self and other individuals can be experienced as 'whole objects', containing both good and bad. This state is referred to as the depressive position (Klein, 1959). It was Klein's belief that people fluctuate between the depressive and the paranoid-schizoid positions; a fluctuation that may be detected in interview texts. A Kleinian theoretical background for interpretation of narratives implies that it cannot be assumed that the interviewee can 'tell it like it is' (Hollway & Jefferson, 2000). Painful feelings may not be available to conscious introspection, rather they may manifest themselves in the interview text through the use of defence mechanisms. The narrative interview is thus not expected to elicit a rational or consistent account, in stead the interpretation relies on viewing the particular story told and the issues emphasised by the interviewee as reflections of unconscious choices and the need to defend against anxiety. Moreover, the notion of unconscious intersubjectivity challenges the idea of a neutral researcher objectively involved in recording data, rather than subjectively involved in producing it. The researcher's projections and introjections as well as her/his investments in particular discourses affect the research- and interview questions, the interview experience and the subsequent interpretation of data (Hollway & Jefferson, 2000). It will also influence the production of data through its effect on the researcher's capacity for 'containing' painful material. If the researcher does not have the ability to contain, due to own anxieties or intolerance of the projections, or if the interviewee does not feel enough trust, the interviewee will retreat to the use of defence mechanisms in order to defend against anxiety (see Segal on 'containment', 1952, pp. 134-135). Context We illustrate the combination of the Schütze and the in-depth hermeneutic approaches with an autobiographical spontaneous narrative interview with Karen4, a 50-year-old office clerk (secretary) employed in a State organisation dealing with cases of complaints. The organisation has been subjected to a number of changes during Karen's employment there. Her first manager was fired and a new one employed. While the managerial style used to be inefficient and bureaucratic with a high degree of personal supervision, it now includes the employees in decision making processes, aims to become a 'learning organisation', combines salary and development of qualification systems and aims to implement larger development of competence projects. However, the new management approach seems characterised by an emphasis on rationalising and intensifying the work load (in order to 'speed up' procedures) and an efficient surveillance of the work efforts of employees through electronic work procedures. The re-organisation of work procedures is included in the process of change. Previously, the group of office clerks (secretaries) included a mid-level manager, who was also an office clerk. In stead, team-organisation is now being implemented in order for the academic staff (AS) and office clerks to function in independent, self-governing teams (see Andersen, Jensen & Sommer 2001). The management initiatives may be perceived to be caring for employees, however, it not only offers the acquisition of further qualifications and personal development, it also demands this. In the organisation's staff policy, it is expressed as follows: "All employees must therefore display a positive attitude to professional as well as personal development and express a flexible approach to the actual work and the work environment". 4 All names and places mentioned in the interview have been anonymised. 7 Personal development, flexibility and acquisition of skills is thus not voluntary, rather it appears to be a condition for being accepted within the organisation and perhaps even a condition for remaining employed. This may put immense pressure on employees in a work situation already strained by great workload (Andersen, Gleerup, Hjort & Sommer, 2001). A central issue in the re-organisation of work tasks is an alteration of the work share between clerical and academic staff. The clerks are now to overtake large parts of the actual casework. At the time of the study, it was decided to leave the specific sharing of tasks up to the cooperation between individual clerks and ASs. In our analysis of the learning environment in the organisation, we uncovered the problematic consequences of this to both clerks and ASs. The group of office clerks was divided and there were obvious problems such as marginalisation mechanisms, disclaim of responsibility and scapegoating of employees. The analysis of the learning environment and the institutional and interactive mechanisms involved, however, could not comprehend the reactions of individual office clerks. The problem seemed to be that the analysis was based on the whole organisation or on groups within the organisation thereby placing an emphasis on the general and neglecting the specifics; that is, the notion that learning environments consist of persons with individual backgrounds. The analysis therefore neglected the meaning of work to the individual person and the subjective perspective on the qualities inherent in the learning environment. By including a subjective perspective, the perception of the learning environment becomes differentiated. For instance, how may we interpret that the same organisation to some employees is experienced as a stimulating and developing learning environment while others perceive it to be demotivating or a hindrance. A part of the answer may be encompassed in the interactive mechanisms positioning employees within an economic, social and cultural context. However, it remains unclear how the nature of personal characteristics influence employees' opportunities for positioning themselves in relation to each other thereby creating differentiated learning conditions within the organisation. In order to answer this, it is necessary to interpret the life history learning of employees as well as their individual learning history within the specific organisation. Interpretation The interview Compared to Schütze's guidelines for autobiographical spontaneous narratives, the interview with Karen is not a particularly successful one. She initiates her account with a rather superficial but extensive global narrative covering her life history. She is aware of her difficulties in remembering her life and expresses confusion in relation to what the interviewer wants her to include in the account. Karen subsequently talks briefly about her school years, vocational training and initial work places. At this point, the interviewer attempts a renewed ratification of the narrative contract and asks questions aimed at the unfolding of tangential narrative potential. The remaining part of the interview contains a detailed and eventful set of stories that seem to follow the chronological order of life events. By the end of the interview, Karen evaluates the whole of her narrative. In relation to this, her perspective on her life history seems to have changed; it appears that when summarising the individual 'suprasegments', the perspective thus far affecting the evaluation of these is problematised and Karen articulates a partly altered understanding of herself. The interpretation of Karen's interview has been conducted in accordance with Schütze's 8 interpretative model, however, with an emphasis on a hermeneutically inspired sequential analysis of content (Andersen, 1996; Soeffner, 1984). The interview was divided into segments and (21) suprasegments; the segments were subsequently individually analysed followed by a summarising analysis of each suprasegment. The biographic gestalt of the interview has been analysed and an analysis of the theories and evaluations made by the interviewee have also been carried out. The scope of this paper does not allow for a presentation of a complete analysis. In stead, we have chosen to present a two-step analysis in the shape of a portrait based on the chronology of Karen's life as well as a concluding interpretation of conflicts between process structures and of coping strategies. Portrait of "Karen" Karen was born in 1950 and has a two years older sister called Ida. Karen's mother was at home when the children were young and subsequently worked as a telephone-operator for a taxi-company. Her father worked as a train driver. Karen started school in 1957 - "I remember it as a good time of course there's been there were some problems and I remember a bit about bullying". Karen describes that she survived at school by forming close relations with "the strong girls in the class". Karen left school after the completion of what is the Danish equivalent to O-levels (10th grade) and had an "okay exam ... it wasn't exceptional grades ... I've always been really bad at that kind of thing I can hardly remember my own name". She implies that the period after leaving school was a difficult time where she was tired of the school system and needed "space" to think. However, her parents encouraged her to train as an office clerk - "then my parents said training as an office clerk is always something to fall back on and then I started on that". Karen began at the School of Commerce and as a trainee in an insurance company. She recalls this time as focused on having fun - "it was mainly like having a ball at that time and that's what I mostly remember that you'd go out and have fun". She is asked to elaborate on the specific work content during her training period but her attempts to do so seem confused and superficial. Karen finished her training after two years - "well that School of Commerce exam it was totally when I came in I lost I could hardly remember my own name that's how nervous I was". Karen's sister also trained as an office clerk, got married early and had two children "she's also a clerk and is in a council in charge of casework ... she's got a lot further and has taken a lot of courses and education and has got a lot further than I ever have". Karen expresses finding it difficult to leave home. At 21, she moved to a one-bedroom flat - "I was so content at home I had everything provided for and that was wicked you know and able to live life so I wasn't really in a hurry to leave home". In 1976, Karen was employed at the University Dental hospital taking care of the dentists' files. She describes it as a problematic time mainly because the dentists did not respect the secretaries or their work. After a while, however, Karen became the personal secretary to professor Niels Jensen - "then when those older girls resigned I became the secretary to professor Jensen so then I did like more wrote letters and of course still files and made slides". The shift in work area is described very positively in Karen's account. Karen also indicates that this period of her life was mainly characterised by "having a ball". Her sister had children while Karen "was more up to not that family life there and I was well it was just hitting town and out and have fun in the weekends". She went abroad on holidays and hung out with a friend whose husband was a rock musician. Karen's family would regularly 9 comment on her way of life - "my parents were like oh like a bit like oh god what's to become of me you know aren't you getting married soon and why not". Karen left the Dental hospital after nearly 10 years to work for a private company. However, after a month she was fired due to arguments with the manager - "he was well a bit after me and I think we agreed that I was fired at that time ... he went completely ballistic because I couldn't put commas". She then went on to work for a small consultancy firm, however, within a year the company experienced financial difficulties and Karen was advised to look for a new job. In 1986, Karen was employed in a Ministry. Karen enjoyed working in the department and particularly liked the managing director Klaus Mortensen - "Klaus give a great spirit to the department I mean he was as naughty as a butcher's dog [Danish expression] but he was very talented I mean good at everything". She describes her employment here as "pure luck". The same year of her employment in the Ministry, Karen met Per. Her friend had got involved with a younger man and encouraged Karen to do likewise - "I had a friend who'd found herself a younger bloke ... and then she said find yourself a young bloke and that I did Per was actually 15 years younger than me". Karen and Per had a daughter in 1988 and they bought a house together in 1994 - "and then we just managed to buy a house and lived there for 9 months before he moved out and had found another woman". Karen moved to a smaller apartment where she still lived with her daughter at the time of the interview. In 1994, Karen's department in the Ministry was fusioned with the council for complaints involving new colleagues and a new manager whom Karen definitely did not appreciate - "it was that guy Kurt Fritze him who was the first boss in the council and he was like we were just a bunch of idiots he was really nasty". Karen continued to work with cases of complaints but was also given the kitchen duty for a longer period of time - "I was to have the kitchen duty and that wasn't what I was employed to do ... I cried so many times over there you know I just felt degraded to nothing to a kitchen assistant". Karen depicts the fusioning of the two departments as a time of conflict. The staff from the two departments collided with each other regularly; a conflict that, according to Karen, still prevails in the department and is the reason for her not to get involved socially with the other secretaries. Karen describes it as a painful phase of change where she felt "degraded", "exploited" and "broken down". She places the responsibility with the manager of the council of complaints and portrays him as a contrast to her former manager Klaus Mortensen. Following a consultancy report criticising Kurt Fritze's management approach, he was fired and Lene Blegdam employed as the new manager. She immediately instigated a larger restructuring of the department - "... then all of a sudden we had to do both this and the other and with developing and re-structuring and erh seminars and stuff...". Karen is content with the change of manager but criticises Lene Blegdam for only conducting staff interviews with the ASs implying that she felt overlooked. Her narrative indicates that she finds it hard to keep up with new demands for personal and professional development, in particular in a situation characterised by immense workloads, and she depicts the changing process as "chaotic", "overwhelming" and "almost too much". At different stages, Karen expresses regrets of not having chosen a different line of work - "I would have liked to jump into something completely different ... I've actually thought of 10 becoming a pedagogue". However, she's felt held back by her problems in relation to schooling and exams - "I've just thought "no I can't bear it that I have to go through and study" I really think it's held me back and hindered me". These regrets are accentuated in relation to her daughter - "when you have a child and hear what the other parents are doing then you think why haven't you become more than what you are". Towards the end of the interview, Karen rejects her wish of becoming a pedagogue and labels it "totally unrealistic". In the final suprasegment of the interview, Karen criticises her parents' values and ambitions on their daughters' behalves. Process structures, coping strategies and the gestalt of Karen's life history Karen's life has taken place within institutions characterising many courses of life: she was raised in a working class family, went to school and did her O-levels, completed her vocational training, has been employed in various organisations, got married, had a child and was divorced. To a certain extent, Karen has accepted - but also felt pressured by - the external demand for a culturally acceptable way of life. At the same time, she has managed to differentiate herself from her parents as well as from general culturally embedded expectations (the significant other/generalised other). It appears that several of Karen's educational experiences are characterised as negative trajectories more or less permanently influencing her life. At school and during her vocational training, she had to take oral exams and experienced 'black-outs' each time. She expresses that this has resulted in a life-long fear of exams and exam-like situations, which has had a bearing on her avoidance of further in-service training. Karen found a job upon completing her vocational training, however, her interests were "holidays, parties and fun" and she describes that work took up a secondary position in her life. With time, Karen experienced increased external pressure to marry and start a family. She postponed the decision until she was 35, an age characterised as "late" both by herself and her surroundings. She finally married a man, 15 years her junior. Karen contrasts her life to that of her older sister Ida. Ida's life has been thoroughly "normal": she trained as an office clerk, married at an early age, had children at appropriate times, completed a lot of further training and has made a career for herself. On this foundation, Karen portrays her life as partly trapped by institutional expectations that have influenced her life in unwanted directions, but also as a silent biographic rebellion against these expectations. The narrative thus contains a conflict between institutional and biographic process structures. Karen's coping strategies in relation to work consisted of carrying out the relatively restricted tasks demanded from a secretary and to establish good social relations, in particular with her superiors or with other persons with academic degrees. As long as her work effort was respected, she did not feel strained by the work situation; nevertheless, her work is never depicted as a life or career project. Karen's work life contains a number of negative experiences, some of which seem to be negative trajectories; for instance, her short-term employments in two private companies. Karen's account of these seems characterised by superficial phrases, clichés and memory problems. She emphasises that it was her own choice to leave both companies while also implying that she was asked to leave. Talking of the first job, she recounts that her professional competence was questioned by the manager although she tries to diminish the importance of this. Talking of her job in the consultancy firm, it remains unclear whether her 11 resignation was actually a result of the firm's financial struggle. Nevertheless, both employment periods seem at least in part to be characterised as negative trajectories. Karen's employment in the Ministry is portrayed as a positive trajectory; a job that she got by “pure luck” which both refers to the past trajectories experienced and to the future as she describes her work in the Ministry very positively. Her secretarial tasks were clearly defined routine work, the relations between secretaries and academic staff (mainly medical doctors) were respectful and the manager guaranteed a good and informal social climate. In contrast to this, Karen's move to the council of complaints introduces the most long-standing and negative work-related trajectory apparent in the interview. The manager made his employees "break down", the established secretaries "elbowed their way forward" and Karen felt reduced from secretary to kitchen assistant. She describes that she survived solely due to her intimate social relations with an AS who also came to the council from the Ministry. In her account, Karen distinguishes between 'past' and 'present' where the former refers to the time in the Ministry before her move to the council of complaints. The past is described positively as a time where clerical work was appreciated, where the sharing of work between clerks and academic staff was clearly demarcated and where Karen enjoyed social relations with her colleagues. 'Present' seems to contain a threat that "you only survive if you move on". It appears to be a negative trajectory and Karen does not seem to feel that she has had any control over her 'fate'. The divorce from Per, leaving her as the sole provider for her daughter, is depicted as a negative trajectory. The fact that Per went on to marry a woman even older than Karen went against all expectations that he might one day "find himself a younger woman". It is this relationship in particular which departed from Karen's expectations of a 'worst-case-scenario' making it even more difficult for her to come to terms with. Karen's comments on the current organisational changes are often contradictory. She is sometimes enthusiastic in her account of opportunities to gain status qua more qualified work tasks while at times also expressing great concern about the teamwork between secretaries, the novel demands for competence and the so-called 'offers' of formalised educational programmes in a situation, where the secretaries have to work extremely hard, just to keep up with their existing tasks. Along with the organisational changes, it appears vital to demonstrate a personal commitment to the work as well as to perceive and verbalise the work as a personal and career-wise developmental project. To a certain degree, it seems to be an anomic situation lacking lucid guidelines as well as being a situation characterised by a crosspressure between efficiency and personal development; however, it is surrounded by a discourse depicting personal development, the development of qualifications and diminishment of professional demarcations as an unproblematic advantage. Karen's previous work-related socialisation and coping strategies do not reach this far and her fear of exams as well as her lack of experience in making demands of her work situation prevent an offensive strategy. She has difficulties arguing against the predominant discourse and the work place in terms of the positive nature of personal and professional development while feeling concerned about the demands they pose to her. In many aspects, Karen’s orientation towards work can be characterised as a ‘traditional wage earner mentality’. 12 To Karen, 'good work' entails: • • • • • • • Clearly defined, and preferably routine, tasks Absence of demands for exams and exam-like situations Relations with colleagues with academic degrees founded on mutual respect of differences Relations with other office clerks on the basis that no one "elbows their way forward on other's expense" Clear structure, openness and honesty - no "gossiping" A safe social climate A manager who treats employees as equals and provides clear guidelines. On top of this is a prioritisation of social and family life outside work. The changes at her work place towards an emphasis on development and flexibility deeply problematise her fundamental outlook on life. Karen has moved from a traditional bureaucracy with an unpleasant manager to a modernised State organisation with a pleasant manager but where the 'wage earner mentality' is illegitimate. She is not very capable of biographic action and her life strategy does not meet the current standards at her work, the consequence of which is that she may be in danger of becoming marginalised. The external pressure on Karen does not only stem from her workplace. Karen grew up in a relatively homogeneous working class neighbourhood restricted from mixing with people from other classes. This now longer exists and she currently lives in a socially mixed area and participates in parent group meeting and other activities at her daughter's school where she meets parents with higher educations than herself. The comparison of status with these persons is not to Karen's advantage and she experiences her position as "just a secretary" as a problem in relation to her daughter. The main narrative focus throughout the majority of the interview points towards a desire to change jobs and complete an education in order to become a pedagogue. This is displayed as Karen's version of a professional and personal development project. Towards the end of the interview, however, the perspective is altered. She openly expresses aggressive feelings towards the "respectable family" (her parents) because they have had a considerable bearing on the direction of her life despite her attempts of rebellion. Moreover, she admits (to herself) that she does not want to, nor feels able to, change profession. Due to her duty to provide for her daughter, she can neither afford to work as an un-skilled pedagogue assistant nor can she lower her income in order to complete a pedagogical education. In other words, Karen ends the interview in a 'realistic' position; a position, however, which indicates great problems as to the unison of an opposing and rebellious self-understanding with the legitimisation of her current position. Her conclusion, though, is not that she ought to have followed the advice of her parents or followed her sister's example, rather she feels responsible for the choices she has made during the course of her life and thus accepts responsibility for the consequences of these. In-depth hermeneutic interpretation In line with the FANI-methodology (Hollway & Jefferson, 2000), we have extracted a number of themes that seem central to Karen’s interview. The scope of the present paper does not allow for a complete presentation of these and we have therefore chosen to illustrate an in- 13 depth hermeneutic interpretation with the thematic analysis of a conflict between a desire to ‘move on’ and the reluctance to embrace the re-organisational changes taking place within Karen’s work place. Karen's situation at the time of the interview seems to contain a conflict between regrets about not having 'moved on' and an aversive reaction to the 're-structuring' processes taking place at her work. Karen expresses regret over not having 'moved on' career-wise in terms of 'moving out' and completing a different education as for instance a pedagogue. At the same time, she seems reluctant to embrace the re-structuring at her work although this would enable her to improve her professional skills, become more independent and take on more responsibility. This conflict may at first seem contradictory and irrational but appears less incomprehensible with an understanding of Karen's life history and her use of unconscious intersubjective defences. There are two main issues that seem central to an understanding of Karen's situation at the time of the interview, namely her fear of exams and feeling inferior and her need to form relations with persons of higher status than herself. Karen describes her experience of exams at lower secondary school and the School of Commerce as "a nightmare". In the interview, she relates these experiences to her regrets of not having 'moved on' and feeling inferior: I: what you're saying about exams has it been significant to your life? K: well it probably has a bit since I haven't taken an other education I think it's because I've just thought "no I can't bear it that I have to go through and study" I really think it's held me back and hindered me ... when I think about it then I think it can only be that I've been dead scared of those exams well that School of Commerce exam that was completely when I came in I completely lost I could hardly remember my own name ... when you have a child and hear what the other parents are doing then you think "why haven't you become more than what you are" ... well I must feel that I'm of a lower rank anyway The links between the elements in this extract illustrate the connection between Karen's poor performance in exam situations, her reluctance to going back to school as well as her feelings of being inferior to others around her. The following extract depicts a defence strategy against feeling insecure or inferior adopted by Karen during her school years: I: can you tell me something you remember from your school? How it was? K: well I think well I I think well I I well remember it as a good time right of course there were some problems I also remember a bit about bullying and stuff you were sometimes you were left out what if you had if you had been ill for a while and stuff well all that then that I clearly remember that you were also bullied a bit and that kind of thing and I was well I was probably a bit timid in I haven't been that kind of outspoken like many I wasn't the one who well I probably kept to those strong girls in class right well that erh that you should keep to to be inside right The shift from "you were also bullied a bit" to "and I was well I was probably a bit timid " indicates that the memories of bullying in school form part of her personal experience. Karen here reveals that she protected herself against being bullied or 'left out' by forming 14 relationships with the stronger girls in the class. The anxiety-inducing feelings of being inferior and the importance of forming relationships with stronger people, or persons of higher social status, seem to characterise Karen's account of her life history. For instance, when talking of her job in the Ministry Karen says: then I applied for a job in the Ministry where Birthe was who is here now and erh I got that and I was incredibly happy to be there I started in 86 and erh that was really great there were both doctors and lawyers and I just thought it was such a good department it was Klaus who was the manager and he was a good manager In her appraisal of the Ministry, Karen mentions Birthe, a lawyer with high status in the department; doctors and lawyers, again persons with high status; and Klaus Mortensen, who received a lot of media attention while being the managing director of the Ministry. The passage suggests that her happiness with being in the department is associated with these people. Her account of her relationships with these persons, however, remains unnuanced and superficial; their names alone, rather than their personal qualities, seem to justify that she "was incredibly happy to be there". Later on in the interview she reveals one important feature of these relationships, namely that the high status, well-educated persons do not look down upon her or treat her disrespectfully due to her educational background: the majority were doctors we worked incredibly well together ... the doctors that I've kind of been working with they have been more like "well" like more not anything like well you're down there and I'm up here The above extracts illustrate Karen's use of idealisation and introjective identification. The splitting off of internal anxiety-provoking 'bad' objects, that is Karen's feelings of insecurity in terms of her educational background and professional competence, takes place concomitant with the splitting of external objects, here high status persons whom Karen looks up to. The splitting precludes any confusion of 'good' and 'bad' both within the self and the external objects; the 'bad' is denied and the 'good' object idealised. The external 'good' objects, that is the person's professional competence and status, may then be identified with and introjected. Karen's idealisation of the persons mentioned in the above passages means that she does not perceive them as 'whole' objects and may explain her inability to elaborate on or nuance her relationships with them; their names, educational background and status alone justify her being happy at work as these are the objects she identifies with and introjects in order to defend against her fear of being incompetent or inferior to others. While Karen's positive experiences in her narrative seem to be linked with the opportunity to form introjective identificatory relationships with high status persons, her negative experiences appear to be associated with being hindered from forming such relationships when a high status person does not appreciate her or value her abilities. In the passage below, Karen describes the manager of a private company who fired her after only a month's employment: I: Was there any specific reason why you stopped working there? K: well no so the guy who owned it he was a real bossy-boot I think and I couldn't really and he was kind of after me all the time I've never been particularly good with commas ... it wasn't a place for me not my thing at all 15 ... yes that wasn't so fortunate he was a bit he was like very particular a bit bragging and stuff and it was quite simple he apologised and he would with these commas he went totally ballistic because I didn't know where to put commas Although she acknowledges her inability to "put commas", Karen portrays the manager as an unreasonable, temperamental and almost draconian person. Rather than constituting a 'good' object with whom Karen could form an introjective identification, the manager criticises Karen's professional competence and treats her as an inferior and therefore comes to represent a 'bad' object, or threat to her identity, which she needs to defend against. She does so by denying his importance, e.g. the slightly ridiculing "bossy-boot", and projecting the blame for her leaving the place onto his persona - "he apologised" - thereby absolving herself of a personal responsibility for being fired. The above examples elucidate the anxiety-inducing and problematic nature of Karen's situation at the time of the interview. The re-structuring processes at her workplace involve demands for personal and professional development in the form of educational courses and seminars. When taking Karen's experience of education and exams into account, it is not difficult to comprehend her aversive reaction to these demands. She may regret not having 'moved on', however, the opportunity to embark on educational programmes is too anxietyinducing for Karen to embrace. Moreover, the re-structuring entails the abandonment of a clearly demarcated hierarchical structure in lieu of independent teams of secretaries expected to function without the direct involvement of a manager. Karen's usual defence strategy of forming relations with stronger persons is thus no longer available to her; rather than working for persons with higher educations and status than herself, she now has to co-operate on equal terms with secretaries who share her educational background and status. Unconscious intersubjectivity and the role of the researcher in producing data The notion of unconscious intersubjectivity implies that the influence of the researcher on the production of data must be taken into account. The interviewer-interviewee relationship that develops during the interview session affects the content of the interview. The interviewee's ability to explore painful feelings rather than retreating to the use of defence mechanisms in part depends on the researcher's capacity to provide a safe and containing context. The interview with Karen encompasses many examples illustrating the influence of unconscious intersubjective dynamics on the narrative elicited in the interview context. Karen’s perception of the interviewer as a researcher with an academic background, her expectations of what he expects from her as well as the nature of the relationship that develops during the interview all affect what is elicited and how. We have chosen one example of the interviewer-interviewee dynamics: what appears to be a development towards the acknowledgement of the role Karen’s experience of exams has played in her life in terms of career choices and her feelings of being inferior. Early on in the interview, the interviewer asks about Karen's final year exams at lower secondary school. His question elicits the following account: yes that was erh yes yes well I took then we did exams in and we used that then in the final years then you did some tests and stuff and that well it went okay right but it wasn't exceptional grades that I kind of right so erh I'd say I've always been incredibly bad at that kind of thing so I can't even 16 remember my own name when I so of course it's not like totally below average bit it's kind of (laughs) okay exam it's not particularly good and I don't know how much further it could have got me Karen seems to have some difficulties introducing her account and subsequently fluctuates mid-sentence between denying and confirming her poor performance in exams and how awful the experience was. This may indicate that it is a problematic or even painful subject for her to talk about. As this passage appears early on in the interview, it is likely that she does not feel enough trust to explore these feelings. Moreover, Karen knows that the interviewer is a researcher, which may complicate the disclosure of feelings of being inferior due to her educational background. Karen does not directly touch upon this subject until much further into the interview. The interviewer asks about her plans of quitting her job and working in a day-care centre for children and Karen circles the issue for a long time. She attempts to explain that her plans will never materialise with reference to her age, expected decrease in salary and her responsibility to her daughter when the interviewer asks "what you're saying about exams has it been significant to your life": K: ... I think it's because I've just thought "no I can't bear it that I have to go through and study" I really think it's held me back and hindered me of course I could have jumped straight into it but I haven't and when I think about it then I think it can only be that I've been dead scared of those exams well that School of Commerce exam that was completely when I came in I completely lost I could hardly remember my own name that's how nervous I was and they could just take me all over I remember and I didn't get a word of what they said it was just the most ... and I think that's what I'm saying good that I don't go to school today and have to do exams that's how I feel I really have like nightmares about it I: But is it a problem for you well you say you haven't moved on? K: well a bit I think right when you have a child and hear what the other parents are doing then you think "why haven't you become more than what you are" ... and it may bother me from time to time because of my child right not because of myself right well but erh well it's not because well yes I must feel that I'm of a lower rank anyway in a way it's like ... well it probably bothers me a bit that I haven't moved on I suppose I have to admit that Comparing the above passage with the previous extract, Karen appears less impeded from exploring her feelings and acknowledges both her fear of exams and its influence on her reluctance to 'move on'. Moreover, she first tries to transform her low self-esteem and feelings of being inferior into concern for her child but moves towards admitting that these feelings belong to herself. It seems that the interviewers' question somehow legitimises her feelings and enables her to talk about these. Moreover, in the first suprasegments Karen seems to experience narrative problems similar to those illustrated by the first extract above. She fluctuates between denying and confirming experiences, opinions and feelings and she also appears to experience memory problems and even ‘black-outs’; in a sense, the interview situation may resemble an exam situation to Karen. As the interview progresses, these narrative problems seem to diminish, which may be a consequence of the development of a relationship between Karen and the interviewer as mentioned above. Our understanding of Karen’s narrative problems and the gradual 17 diminishment of these relies on an understanding of her fear of exam situations as well as of the importance of a containing environment. The above illustrates the importance of taking into account not only the gestalt of the interviewee’s life history, but also the role of the researcher, the interviewer-interviewee dynamics and unconscious intersubjectivity when interpreting narrative interviews. This permits an understanding of the production of data; that is, why what is elicited and how. Conclusion In this paper, we attempted to illustrate how the combination of symbolic interactionist and indepth hermeneutic approaches to the interpretation of narrative interview texts may provide a deeper understanding of learning and learning possibilities embedded in the intertwinement between society and subjectivity with a single case-study. It appears that Karen has problems in adapting to the predominant discourses encompassed in the organisational changes taking place at her work. These changes entail the necessity of demonstrating personal commitment to the work, embracing further training and the implementation of independent teams in charge of casework. In order to understand Karen’s present situation, we need to consider the gestalt of Karen’s life history and how her identity has been formed under the influence of biographical and institutional process structures as well as trajectories. Karen’s experiences of schools and exams have had a life-long bearing on her relationship to formal education. Furthermore, she has prioritised her social life over her career, perhaps as part of a rebellion against institutional norms and expectations. Karen’s coping strategies have consisted of meeting the traditional demands made of secretaries and displaying the flexibility and learning ability necessary to do so. The in-depth hermeneutic approach shows how Karen’s identity and defence strategies appear rooted in the deep, unconscious layers of her personality. Her reaction to the organisational changes cannot be assumed to occur independently of this; nor can it be assumed to be only rational or unproblematic as the defences are unconscious and therefore not straightforwardly available to conscious introspection. The interpretations of Karen’s life history and what is involved in terms of process structures, coping strategies and defence mechanisms permit an understanding of her problems and ambivalence towards meeting current demands at her work place. On the one hand it is not an issue of merely changing previous work patterns; rather, it entails the re-formation of her identity, self-perception, coping strategies and defence mechanisms and the contradictions within. On the other hand, it is not just a question of altering ‘irrational’ resistance against the demands of the organisation. During the interview, Karen mentions several times the immense work pressure resulting from demands of efficiency and of finishing the heaps of cases in the organisations as a particular barrier to the taking on of more tasks. Within the framework of Symbolic Interactionism, it may be argued that the basis for reciprocity is overdemanded of in the process of modernisation. This is in part due to a potentially overwhelming contradiction between Karen’s existing work orientation, strains on current work demands and relatively abstract demands for personal and professional development. Organisations, such as Karen’s work place, portray themselves as ‘learning organisations’ 18 aiming at providing opportunities for personal and professional development. The embracing of these opportunities, however, appears to be a demand rather than an offer. The staff policies articulate a standard set of criteria, the fulfilment of which is the responsibility of individual employees. The ‘successful employee’ is depicted as an engaged and dynamic person, always willing to embark on new, developing changes. Processes of ostracism within the work sphere are thus exacerbated in the sense that experiences of inadequacy are individualised and turned into at question of personality. A such strategy completely ignores that learning is in part dependent on the life history learning of individuals encompassing the relation between the person’s course of life and the conscious, non-conscious and unconscious aspects of the experienced course of life within a wider interactive and societal context. This may result in the creation of modernisation winners and loser, where the latter are in great danger of losing their jobs (Andersen, Jensen & Sommer 2001). The organisations seem to neglect that the problems experienced by many employees may not merely be a consequence of unwillingness to comply with the new criteria. Rather, they may – as in Karen’s case – be a result of life history processes and an identity formed over a long period of time. As such, the interpretation of Karen’s life history exemplifies the difficulties of many office clerks in adapting to work-related changes involving demands of altered work identities in line with new managerial philosophies and the coming and going of managers. Moreover, it exemplifies an understanding of a general problem: the fact that the same organisations that yesterday demanded and rewarded clerks for attending to limited routine tasks within an authoritarian structure, today demand that the same clerks forget what they have learned, threatening with retaliatory measures if they do not comply. An organisation aiming at providing an optimal learning environment, which makes use of the staff’s potential for personal and professional development must consider both the social and subjective aspects involved in learning processes. Moreover, the understanding of the role of – ‘containment’ in relation to narrative interviews may have implications for the implementation of re-organisational changes. If these changes entail the re-formation of identity, self-perception, coping strategies and defence mechanisms, it seems vital to create a safe, containing environment in order for such changes to occur. This does not, however, imply that the problems can be reduced to a question of individuals’ psychological preconditions. Karen’s account of her work situation and the problems inherent in this entails very rational motives for not accepting the change in work conditions in the form devised by the management. These motives, however, have no legitimacy within the organisation and are therefore not given a voice. If no arenas exist enabling the articulation of these types of needs and interests in relation to work life, the critique remains silenced and the organisation thus lacks an important source of information potentially vital to the modernisation process. The issue of learning in our perspective does therefore not only involve humane management but also improvements of organisations aiming at actually benefiting from the full potential of their employees. 19 References Andersen, Anders Siig (1996): Tolkning og erfaring - om nogle præmisser for erfaringstolkning i undervisning og for tolkning af erfaringsorienterede undervisningsforløb. (In English: Interpretation and Experience - Some Preconditions for Interpretation of Experience in Education and for Interpretation of Experiental Learning). Ph.d. thesis. Skriftserie fra Erhvervs- og voksenuddannelsesgruppen nr. 40, Roskilde Universitetscenter, Viborg. 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