archived as http://www.stealthskater.com/Documents/Pitkanen_82.doc
(also …Pitkanen_82.pdf) => doc pdf URL-doc URL-pdf
more from Matti Pitkänen is on the /Pitkanen.htm page at doc pdf
URL
note: because important websites are frequently "here today but gone tomorrow", the following was
archived
from
http://matpitka.blogspot.com/2012/03/proposal-for-microtubular-memorycode.html#comments March 21, 2012. This is NOT an attempt to divert readers from the
aforementioned website. Indeed, the reader should only read this back-up copy if the updated
original cannot be found at the original author's site.
a proposal for Microtubular Memory Code
by Dr. Matti Pitkänen
TGD
Postal address:
Köydenpunojankatu 2 D 11
10940, Hanko, Finland
E-mail: matpitka@luukku.com
URL-address: http://tgdtheory.com
(former address: http://www.helsinki.fi/~matpitka )
"Blog" forum: http://matpitka.blogspot.com/
http://matpitka.blogspot.com/2012/03/intelligent-neurons.html#comments
Intelligent Neurons
Postings to particle physics blogs seem to have degenerated into boring n-sigma talk which fatefully
reflects the deep stagnation in particle physics theory. In Biology and Neuroscience, the situation is
totally different. For instance, this morning I found a highly interesting article about intelligent neurons.
The article gives a link to a Youtube video about a robot which can move and has learned to avoid
obstacles. The robot is controlled by neurons from rat embryo which have grown to form a densely
connected population of about 100.000 neurons. Some kind of training is performed.
The neuron population has developed a sense of vision. We do not know whether the population
sees as we do. We can alsi "see" using other senses such as tactile sense and this must be based on
building a geometric symbolic representation from environment using the sensory input. Neuron
population utilizes the visual input in its motor activities made possible by the coupling to a simple robot
and learns to avoid obstacles.
The interpretation in the framework of standard neuroscience is challenging. Neuron population
behaves as if it were a conscious creature with intentions, goals, ability to see, and ability to move in a
manner taking into account the constraints posed by the environment.
But a neuroscientist who has read his textbooks is a materialist and not willing to admit that neuron
population could behave like a conscious creature. He tries to understand the situation on basis of
classical computation realizing some kind of unconscious general intelligence and relying on some
mystical algorithm allowing to recognize patterns and adapt to almost any situation.
1
In principle, the neuron population should be replaceable by a general purpose computer program if
computationalism works. This kind of extreme flexibility means that this program must be very very
long. Perhaps too long to be fast enough and be realizable using finite metabolic and material resources!
In the second experiment discussed in the posting, a ferret's brain was rewired. Visual sensory input
from optic nerve was redirected to the brain regions where the input from ears is normally processed.
Despite this, the brain region automatically reconfigured to make sense of the visual data and allowed
the ferret to see with 1/3 of the normal vision. The structures presumably needed for seeing were
automatically formed in the brain section used to process sound.
1. The experiment excludes the idea that genes are responsible for the differences between auditory
and visual regions of brain. Neurons are the same neurons everywhere in brain. It is selforganization which is responsible for the specialization to see or hear (or rather to process
sensory inputs whatever they are). Top-down instructions at brain level can be excluded since
the ferret's brain does not know about rewiring. Also the feedback teaching the neurons to do
the "right" thing as in the first experiments was absent. It seems that the neuron population
behaves as a conscious creature able to self-organize to utilize the input from sensory organs be
it visual or auditory.
2. In ordinary Neuroscience, this seems to leave only one option. If neurons are assumed to be
unconscious, the rewiring between neurons should somehow give rise to a symbolic
representation about the geometry of the environment. The great mystery is how a mere wiring
could give rise to various qualia such has color even in the normal situation. The idea that
different wiring topologies could give rise to different qualia looks utterly implausible.
3. The symbolic representation of the environment could use only geometric data. Whether it
involves also qualia such as colors could be clarified an experiment using human subjects.
This raises ethical and probably also practical issues. One could however test whether a ferret
learns to recognize objects with different color. For instance, a green object could course a
pleasant sensation and red object an unpleasant sensation. A variant of this test might be
possible even in the case of neuronal robot.
What about the interpretation in TGD framework? Both experiments conform with the general
TGD-inspired vision about the brain.
A. For the simplest option, the fundamental sensory qualia reside at the level of sensory receptors.
This is not the only option. But it is a very attractive one. I do not repeat here the arguments
allowing to circumvent the objections against qualia at the sensory receptors e.g., phantom
limb etc.). The sensation of color involves quantum entanglement of the magnetic body, brain,
and retina. In the latter experiments, auditory regions would entangle with retina. The
prediction is that now color qualia are also present.
B. The brain builds up symbolic representations by decomposing the sensory input to objects and
giving them names. Sensory organs take care of the "coloring" of the resulting sensory map.
Sensory feedback from neurons is needed since our perceptions do not represent what is there
but a caricature exaggerating the important features. Sensory feedback is in terms of dark
photons from neurons to retina with non-standard value of Planck constant. We call them
biophotons when they leak out by transforming to ordinary photons.
2
C. Neuronal lipid layer serves as the analog of computer monitor screen with each lipid carrying
various basic attributes associated with neuronal sensory experience which remains
unconscious to us. This explains grandma neurons able to recognize some particular sensory
input. Neurons also possess various primary qualia. But sensory organs have specialized to
produce sensory qualia at our level of the self hierarchy.
D. Neurons are conscious creatures able to cooperate because they have a collective magnetic body
controlling the neuron population and can therefore rapidly adapt in changing environment as
in the first experiment. The presence of the magnetic body of course distinguishes sharply
between TGD-inspired and Neuroscience explanations.
http://matpitka.blogspot.com/2012/03/proposal-for-microtubular-memorycode.html#comments
a proposal for Microtubular Memory Code
In an article in the March 8 issue of the journal PLoS Computational Biology, physicists Travis
Craddock and Jack Tuszynski of the University of Alberta, and anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff of the
University of Arizona propose a mechanism for encoding synaptic memory in microtubules, major
components of the structural cytoskeleton within neurons. The self-explanatory title of the article is
"Cytoskeletal Signaling: Is Memory Encoded in Microtubule Lattices by CaMKII Phosphorylation?"
A. Basic ideas of the Model
The hexagonal cylindrical lattice of microtubule suggests the possibility of lattice consisting of bits
and probably very many proposals have been made. One such idea is that a bit is represented in terms of
the 2 basic conformations of tubulin molecules called α and β. The recent proposal is that a bit
corresponds to the phosphorylation state of tubulin. Also a proposal that the bits form 6-bit bytes is
considered. 64 different bytes are possible which would suggest a connection with the genetic code.
The motivation for the identification of byte is that CaMKII enzyme has in the active state insect like
structure: 6 + 6 legs and the legs are either phosphorylated or not. This geometry is indeed very
suggestive of connexion with 6 inputs and 6 outputs representing genetic codons representable as
sequences of 6 bits. The geometry and electrostatics of CaMKII is complementary to the microtubular
hexagonal lattice so that CaMKII could take care of the phosphorylation of microtubulins. 6 tubulins at
most would be phosphorylated at one side. The presence of Ca+2 or calmodulin flux flowing to the
neuron interior during nerve pulse is responsible for self-phosphorylation of CaMKII. One can say that
CaMKII takes itself care that it remains permanently phosphorylated. I am not sure whether this stable
phosphorylation means complete phosphorylation.
It is difficult, however, to imagine how Ca+2 and calmodulin flux could contain the information
about the bit sequence and how this information could be coded in standard manner to phosphorylation
pattern of legs. The only possibility which looks natural is that phosphorylation is a random process and
only the fraction of phosphorylated legs depends on Ca+2 and calmodulin fluxes.
Another possibility would be that the subsequence process of phosphorylation MT by completely
phosphorylated CaMKII manages to do it selectively. But it is very difficult to imagine how the
information about codon could be transferred to the phosphorylation state of MT.
For these reasons, my cautious conclusion is that phosphorylation/its absence cannot represent a bit.
What has been found, however, is a mechanism of phosphorylation of MTs. The question is what could
3
be the function of this phosphorylation? Could this phosphorylation be related to memory but in
different manner? The 6+6 structure of CaMKII certainly suggests that the analog of genetic code based
on 6 bits might be present but realized in some other manner.
1. What does one mean with memory?
Before proceeding, one must make clear what one means with memory in the recent context.
The articles of New Scientist with (almost as a rule) sensationalistic titles do not pay too much
attention for the fact this kind of proposals are always based on some philosophical assumptions
which might be wrong.
(a) What one means with "memory" in the recent context? The memory in question is behavioral
memory. Conditioning producing reflect-like reaction is a typical example of behavioral
memory and need not have anything to do with conscious memory such as episodal memory in
which one literally relives an event of the Past. Electric stimulation of some regions of
temporal lobes can indeed induce this kind of memories. The idea about coding would suggest
the identification of this memory with a highly symbolic computer memory based on "carving
in stone".
(b) The proposal is inspired by the idea of brain or cell as computer and can be criticized. There is
no pressing need for coding since behavioral memory can be reduced to the formation of
associations and associative learning by computers is standard example of this kind of
behavioral memory. One can of course consider the coding for declarative and verbal
memories and the genetic code provides an attractive candidate for a universal code. This kind
of code might be behind the natural languages as a kind of "molecular language".
(c) Behavioral memories can be defined as changes of behavior resulting from a continued stimulus.
The understanding of behavioral memory relies on the notions of synaptic strength, synaptic
plasticity, and long-term potentiation. Synaptic strength tells how strongly the post-synaptic
neuron responds to the nerve pulse pattern arriving along pre-synaptic axon and mediated by
neurotransmitter over the synaptic gap.
For instance, glutamate acts as excitatory
neurotransmitter and binding to receptor. At neuronal levels, long-term potentiation means
increase of the synaptic strength so that post-synaptic neuron becomes "more attentive" to the
firing of pre-synaptic neuron.
Hebb's rules (not established laws of Nature and plagued by exceptions) state that the
effectiveness of synaptic receptors increases when the 2 neurons fire simultaneously. It is
important to notice that these firings need not have any causal connection with each other. The
simultaneous firing activates NMDA receptors in the post-synaptic neuron and generates Ca+2
flux which correlates with the increase of the synaptic strength. NMDA obeys same chemical
formula C5H9NO4 as glutamate. In fact, glutamate and asparagin are 2 acidic amino-acids. It
is also known that the presence of CaKMII is necessary for the increase of the synaptic
strengths.
(d) There is, however, an almost-paradox involved with this view about memory if assumed to
explain all kinds of memories - in particular episodal memories. Long-term conscious
memories can be lifelong. Synaptic structures are highly unstable since the synapses and
proteins involved are cycled.
4
In my view, this argument is somewhat naive. There could be a flow equilibrium. The
flow pattern of fluid flow in flow equilibrium can be stable although the fluid is replaced with
new one all the time. The proposal of authors is that memories are stored to some more stable
structures and that microtubules are these more stable structures making possible short-term
memories. Post-synaptic microtubules (which differ from presynaptic microtubules in several
manners) are indeed stabilized by MAPs. Authors also propose the thin filaments associated
with the cytoskeleton are responsible for long-term memories.
Authors believe on computationalism and apply the standard view about Time so that their
conclusion is that long-term memories are stored elsewhere and remain able to regulate
synaptic plasticity. In this framework, the notion of memory code is very natural.
2. LTP and synaptic plasticity
From Wikipedia, one can read that synaptic plasticity means possibility for changes in
function, location, and/or number of post-synaptic receptors and ion channels. Synapses are
indeed very dynamical and synaptic receptors and channel proteins are transient. Which does
not seem to conform with the standard view about long-term memory and indeed suggest that the
stable structures are elsewhere.
Long-term potentiation (LTP) involves gene expression, protein synthesis, and recruitment of
new receptors or even synapses. The mechanism of LTP is believed to be following.
The glutamate from pre-synaptic neuron binds to post-synaptic receptors which leads to the
opening of Ca+2 channels and influx of Ca+2 ions to dendritic spines, shafts, and neuronal cell
body. The inflow of Ca+2 induces activation of multiple enzyme including protein kinase A and
C and CaMKII. These enzymes phosphorylate intra-neuronal molecules.
It is known that the presence of CaMKII is necessary for long-term potentiation. This
supports the proposal of authors that microtubules are involved in an essential manner in
memory storage and processing and regulation of synaptic plasticity. The observation about the
correspondence between the geometries of CaMKII and microtubular surface is rather
impressive support for the role of MTs. In my opinion, the hypothesis about memory code is
however unnecessary.
3. Microtubules
Quite generally, microtubules (MTs) are basic structural elements of the cytoskeleton. They
are rope like polymers and grow as long as 25 micrometers long. They are highly dynamical.
The standard view identifies their basic function as maintaining of cell structures, providing
platforms for intracellular transport, forming the spindle during mitosis, etc.
Microtubules are extremely rich in eukaryotic biology and brain neurons. They are believed
to connect membrane and cytoskeletal levels of information processing together. MTs are the
basic structural elements of axons and MTs in axons and dendrites/neuronal cell bodies are
different. Dendrites contain antiparallel arrays MTs interrupted and stabilized by microtubule
associated proteins (MAPs) including MAP2. This difference between dendritic and axonal
microtubules could be relevant for the understanding of the neuronal information processing.
Microtubules are associated also with long neural pathways from sensory receptors which seem
to maximize their length.
5
For these reasons, it would not be surprising if MTs would play a key role in the information
processing at neuronal level. Indeed, the more modern view tends to see microtubules as the
nervous system of the cell and the hexagonal lattice-like structure of microtubules strongly
suggests information processing as a basic function of microtubules. Many information
processing-related functions have been proposed for microtubules. Microtubules have been
suggested role as cellular automatons. Also quantum coherence in microtubular scale has been
proposed.
The proposal of the article is that short-term memory is realized in terms of a memory code
at the level of MTs and that intermediate filaments which are much more stable could be
responsible for long- term memory.
4. CaMKII enzyme
According to the proposal, the key enzyme of memory would be Calcium/calmodulindependent protein kinase II (CaMKII). Its presence is known to be necessary for long-term
potentiation.
In the passive state, CaMKII has a snowflake shape. The activated kinase looks like double
sided insect with 6-legged kinase domains on both sides of a central domain. Activation means
phosphorylation of the 6+6 legs of this "nano-insect". In the presence of Ca+2 or calmodulin
flux, CaKMII self-actives meaning self-phosphorylation so that it remains permanently active.
There are, however, grave objections against phosphate=1--no-phosphate=0 coding.
(a) Only the fluxes of Ca+2 and/or calmodulin matter so that it is very difficult to imagine any
coding. One would expect that the fraction of phosphorylated legs depends on these fluxes
in equilibrium. But it is very difficult to image how these fluxes could carry information
about a specific pattern of phosphorylation for legs. If all legs are phosphorylated, the
coding to microtubular phosphorylation would require that 6 bits of information is fed at
this stage by telling which leg actually gives its phosphate to tubulin. This does not look
too plausible. But one must be very cautious in making too strong conclusions.
(b) Since metabolic energy is necessary for any information processing, the more plausible
interpretation would be that phosphorylation makes bit active. The bit itself would be
represented in some other manner. The 6+6 leg structure of CaMKII is very suggestive of
a connection with 6 incoming bits and 6 outgoing bits (possible the same or conjugated).
The interpretation in terms of DNA codon and its conjugate is what comes first to mind.
One should not throw away, however, the child with the wash water. The highly interesting
discovery discussed in the article is that the spatial dimensions, geometric shape, and
electrostatic binding of the insect-like CamKII and hexagonal lattices of tubulin proteins in
microtubules fit nicely together. The authors show how CaMKII kinase domains can
collectively bind and phosphorylate MTs. This alone could be an extremely important piece of
information. There is no need to identify the bit with the phosphorylation state.
B. the TGD view about the situation
The TGD-based view about memory could have been developed by starting from the paradox
related to long-term memories. Memories are long-lasting. But the structures supposed to be
6
responsible for their storage are short-lived. The TGD-based solution of the paradox would be based
on new view about the relationship between Geometric-Time and Experienced-Time.
(a) According to this view, the brain is 4-dimensional and primary memories are in the time-place
where the neural event took place for the first time. In principle there would be no need to
store memories by "carving them in stone". To remember would be to see in the Time
direction. This view is indeed possible in Zero Energy Ontology. Time-like entanglement
and signaling to the Geometric-Past using negative energy signals would be the basic
mechanisms of memory.
(b) Stable memories also require copies for another reason. The negative energy signal to the
Geometric-Past is not expected to allow a precise targeting to a one particular moment of time
in the Past. To circumvent the problem, one must make the target large enough in the Time
direction. The strengthening of memory would mean building up large number of copies of
memory.
These copies are produced in every conscious memory recall. Learning would be based on
this mechanism. The neuronal mechanism would produce large number of copies of the
memory. One can ask whether CaMKII indeed generates phosphorylated sections of MT
somehow essential for the representation of long-term symbolic memories as names for
experiences rather than experiences themselves.
(c) Metabolism must also relate to conscious memory recall. Since negative energy signals are
involved, there is great temptation to assume that de-phosphorylation liberating metabolic
energy corresponding to the absorbed negative energy accompanies memory recall. Large hbar
for the photons involved would allow very low frequencies -expected to characterize the time
span of memory recall and make communications over very long time intervals possible. This
would mean that the original memory representation is destroyed in the memory recall.
This would conform with the spirit of quantum no-cloning theorem. Several copies of the
memory representation would be needed and also feed of metabolic energy to generate new
copies. In this framework, conscious memory recall would be dynamical event rather than stable
bit sequence in accordance with the vision about quantum jump as moment of consciousness.
1. Braiding and Memory
(a) Braiding of magnetic flux tubes would make possible not only topological quantum
computation but also a universal mechanism of long-term memory. In the model of DNA as
topological quantum computer (TQC), the flux tubes connect DNA nucleotides and lipids of
cell membrane. It turned out that the flux tubes carrying dark matter (identified as ordinary
particles but with a non-standard value of the Planck constant) could connect all kinds of
biomolecules and that braiding and reconnection could serve as basic quantum mechanisms
in the functioning of biomolecules. Flux tubes could also connect the tubulins of
microtubules and lipids of axonal or dendritic membrane.
(b) 2 kinds of braidings are present. The lipid flow defines braiding in time direction as the analog
of dance and the fact that lipids are like dancers with threads from shoes the wall (now the
microtubule surface) so that the dance induce braiding of these threads storing the dynamics
of the dance to memory. The presence of both space-like and time-like braiding and the fact
that they are in a well-defined sense dual has become the central idea of Quantum-TGD
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itself. Originally it was however discovered in the model for DNA as a topological quantum
computer.
(c) Both active memory recall by sending negative energy dark photons to the Geometric-Past and
spontaneous memory recall by receiving a positive energy photons from the Geometric-Past
require metabolic energy. Therefore the presence of phosphate in braid strands is necessary.
The flux tubes defining braid strands can be therefore assumed to be active only if they have
phosphate at the other end.
A more appropriate TGD-based interpretation is that this makes possible negentropic
entanglement which is one of the basic predictions of the number theoretic vision about Life.
High-energy phosphate bond would thus a signature of negentropic entanglement which
could serve as a correlate for the experience of understanding. One could relate ATP-ADP
process as a basic process of life directly to cognition. The presence of phosphate would tell
that there is a magnetic flux tube (actually pair of them) beginning from the molecule.
2 TGD-inspired microtubular model of Memory
The finding of the authors inspires a more detailed formulation for the vision for how memories
could be realized at the microtubular level.
(a) The phosphorylation of tubulins would generate active braids strands and their presence would
make possible memory recall. Note that memories as such could be stored to the braiding in
any case if the microtubule-lipid flux tubes are present always. Every nerve pulse pattern
would induce a flow of lipids at neuronal membrane if the membrane is in a phase
corresponding to a 2-D liquid crystal. This flow pattern would be stored to the braiding of
the flux tubes.
(b) In the model of DNA as a topological quantum computer, one assigns to braid strands
connecting DNA nucleotides to lipids 4 different states representing the nucleotides A, T, C,
G. In the original model, the A,T,C,G were mapped to 4 states defined by quarks u,d and
their antiquarks at the ends of braid strands. This proposal can of course be accused of being
quite too science-fictive. However, TGD predicts the possibility of scaled-up variants of
QCD-type physics even in the scale of Living matter. There are some indications for this.
A more down-to-earth realization of the genetic code proposed quite recently is that braid
states correspond to pairs of magnetic flux tubes. To the ends of both flux tubes one assigns
electron so that the electrons form spin triplet and spin singlet state defining 3+1 states
representing A,T,C,G. This also gives a connection with electronic superconductivity which
is a fundamental assumption in the model of nerve pulse based on Josephson currents. A
nerve pulse corresponds to a simple perturbation of the ground state in which all Josephson
current along axon are oscillating in the same phase. Mathematically, the phase difference
behaves like a gravitational pendulum (see the TGD-inspired model for nerve pulse).
(c) In this proposal, LTP would mean generation of active braid strands. The post-synaptic neuron
would be in "wake-up" state and would pay attention to the nerve pulse patterns arriving
from the pre-synaptic neuron. This activation would be induced by simultaneous firing of
post-synaptic and pre-synaptic neurons. As a consequence, the lipid flow would generate
braidings providing memory representations and defining in temporal domain quantum
computation-like processes.
8
(d).This does not yet explain why CaMKII is necessary for LTP. There is a high temptation to
regard the increase of the synaptic sensitivity as a property of synaptic connection. One can
imagine several mechanisms.
i. For instance, active flux tube connections between presynaptic lipids and postsynaptic
microtubuli could be generated by phosphorylation. The flux tubes might increase the
flow of glutamate between pre- and post-synaptic neurons and in this manner increase
synaptic strength. Flux tubes might make possible a continual flow of dark particles
between pre- and post-synaptic neurons. They could also make possible negentropic
entanglement between the 2 neutrons binding the neurons to single coherent quantum
whole.
ii. The strength of this connection could be affected also by the presence of active braid
strands making possible quantum memory and topological quantum computation. Also
more complex processes assigned with LTP would become possible since microtubules
might be seen as conscious intelligent structures able to modify their nearby
environment.
For background, see the chapter "Quantum Model for Memory" of TGD-Inspired Theory of
Consciousness.
Comments
1. At 1:51 PM, ThePeSla said...
Matti,
I used your model in that I understand the scope of it (if not the details) in my post today as to
the relationship to our ideas of Consciousness. (So Ulla. this is a new take on such definitions as
you asked in the comment on the last post here)
I find Lubos has an interesting post which ends on the triality issue (yes, the pages are sigma
boring to me too) "I cannot believe..." on this π-day.
In the next level of consciousness definition, all our methods have to be applied to this next level
which I hope will shore up the physics of this already abstract level of topological dynamics.
A single neuron can recognize a face. Well what if in the zillions we lose that one neuron?
Anyway, thanks for the answer to my question on the actual physics that may involve such
microtubls. But I will have to read it later.
ThePeSla pesla.blogspot com the universe as perception and TGD-like consciousness systems
Ulla, when you ask me for links, how can I do so if I mainly google what is in my head? But the
Internet science papers have gained respect lately if that is how you are asking me that.
Will Kea come back? I miss her take on things. Seems like we continue such issues of the new
physics. Even Lubos seems to make such comments for or against it.
9
2. At 10:12 PM, matpitka@luukku.com said...
To Pesla:
The hierarchy of infinite primes and Hilbert hierarchy would naturally have many-sheeted spacetime as its physical realization in the TGD Universe. Braids of braids of... The formation of systems
consisting of systems consisting .... of elementary articles would correspond to hierarchy of Nthorder logics physically in many-sheeted space-time.
You mention Lubos and Kea. What troubles me in recent-day particle physics is the attitude
towards problems like neutrino mixing. In this n-sigma talk, one talks endlessly about the end
product of theoretical activity instead of directing attention to its origin (the problem). To me, a justborn child is much more interesting that the dead corpse (be it famous or not!;-)
Neutrino mixing matrix is a good example about howthe end product replaces the problem.
Neutrino is assimilated with the matrix used to model it. The real problem (what mixing means and
what is its origin) disappears and questions like that of Lubos emerge (is mixing matrix involution?).
In the same manner, Kea played endlessly with magic matrices. Sad to put this so bluntly. But in
my view, this is a waste of time.
When one really sees the real problem from matrices, one notices first that the mixing matrix is
not actually neutrino mixing matrix but product V=UD^dagger of the matrices describing mixings of
charged leptons and neutrinos. It is V that appears in electroweak couplings tells how much the
mixings for charged leptons and neutrinos differ from each other.
What is this mixing physically and geometrically? This is the second question when one begins
to see the problem instead of matrices.
A possible answer provided by TGD is that topological mixing of topological of partonic 2surfaces is in question. Partonic state with topology of sphere is slightly mixed with torus topology
and sphere with 2-handles. Mixings are different for neutrinos and charged leptons because of
electroweak symmetry breaking.
At this state models and even predictions begin to emerge and also a question. Where are the
higher topologies: sphere with more than 2 handles? Are these states very massive or what?
3. At 4:13 PM, ◘Fractality◘ said...
Matti:
If one has amnesia about a certain event, that doesn't mean the event didn't happen!
If memory has a geometric correlate and brain is 4-dimensional in a sense, that should help to
understand how memories can be retrieved under regressive hypnosis.
I think TGD should propose a detailed model for memory retrieval under hypnosis ;)
4. At 10:22 PM, matpitka@luukku.com said...
To Fractality:
10
This is true in the TGD Universe. Memories are extremely flexible and can be edited. This is
not a dramatic prediction since this is indeed known to be the case.
The new realization during writing of the post was that memory recall by sending negative
energy might destroy it in the sense that the phosphates of forming 6-bit sequences as analogs of
genetic codons and defining braiding units are used in the memory recall.
A possible test would be to see whether the phosphates brought by CaMKII to microtubular
surface indeed appear as 6-bit sequences and whether memory recall destroys the whole sequence at
once in order to get metabolic energy compensated by negative energy large hbar photons. By the
way, the energy would be around 0.5 eV.
I wish I had time to do all these things I have been requested to do;-). I would need at least
infinite number of good students to whom I could delegate all these requests.
5. At 11:12 PM, ◘Fractality◘ said...
Matti:
Hmmm … So if the negative energy that is used for memory recall can also "destroy" it, perhaps
the state of hypnosis (trance state = less dissipation?) utilizes negative/metabolic energy that would
otherwise be used in other processes. That additional energy would be "coaxed" into memory recall.
6. At 2:51 AM, Ulla said...
Brannen: Most expensive link ever. Too slow for Morse Code. But it goes through a thousand
miles of rock: http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.2847
http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2012/03/entanglement_is_not_that_magic.php?utm_source=c
ombinedfeed&utm_medium=rss
EPR is entanglement by light?
7. At 3:52 AM, matpitka@luukku.com said...
To Fractality:
The most pessimistic view would be that memory at quantum level is teleportation so that nocloning theorem would apply.
To Ulla:
It is wrong to say that entanglement is entanglement by light. Just entanglement.
8. At 1:39 PM, Ulla said...
I should be able to find out that myself :)
One more stupid question: is a light-like space-time always entangled or continuous? It should
be (it is holistic?). But it must also be descreate with different fields meeting, maybe with
'massgaps'? So it both have symmetry and break the symmetry. This is made visible by Feynman's
diagrams and loops? Loops for creativity (the 3 body problem?)?
11
About different kinds of memory, note the different kinds of consciousness too as Automatic
Consciousness?
9. At 9:28 PM, matpitka@luukku.com said...
Ulla,
It is very difficult to understand the concept of entanglement without appropriate mathematics.
Entanglement has no interpretation in terms of everyday experience. You cannot perceive a state
which is superposition of states in which Schrodinger's cat is dead and bottle of poison is open and
Schrodinger's cat is alive and bottle of poison closed. Mathematically, this kind of state makes
complete sense. But not at the level of sensory experience. The basic property of sensory
perception indeed is that it makes state Classical by state function reduction.
Automatic consciousness in the TGD Universe is a nonsensical notion. And also in the "real"
universe. When a performance requiring learning becomes automatic, it is not anymore a conscious
performance. If there is still consciousness, it is at lower levels of the hierarchy (not ours) where
things need not be automatic.
This is a good example of how prevailing theories of Consciousness (in this case
computationalism) neglect even the most elementary facts about consciousness. The same also
applies in particle physics. Seeing that which is (about which Krishnamurti talks a lot) is very very
important for a theorist;-). Too often theorists are unable to see anything from the shadow of their
own gigantic ego!
10. At 12:54 AM, Ulla said...
But at the level of entanglement?
What you say only is that measurements in sensing are classic measurements. This was the
problem I talked of earlier. Entanglement is coming into the picture much earlier and are
independent of measurements. This is why they "collapse" in the measurement. Or can we say the
sampling is only from a certain field that oscillate? Wrong "sampling" are sorted out.
You also talk of the Big Book and Josephsons currents as the back of the Book. Then Josephson
currents must be interfering with the entangled fields (via Yang-Mills and twistors, knots?), Knots
and Feynman diagrams, loops are very much the same as the 3 body problem but in microscale?
Note, homeostasis is always negentropic in a low way. The lower the better. Allostasis is
equilibrium at higher negentropic levels and always indicate disturbed balance. The Josephson
junctions are also always at slight negentropic state (groundstate of living matter). If they are
allowed to relax further death (of self?) is a consequence. At lower entropic leve,l are the sheets
wider, thus hbar grows?
Also between sensing and entanglements are a field of computations or braidings making all
those geometric figures, matrices and numbers? Matrices don't come by themselves; they are
possibilities. Those are sensed and analyzed further, most are sorted out, then the perception first
comes, and the consciousness which also contains much learned things.
Intention and Self is essential, yes. But only for things allowed to enter the "flame" in working
memory. p-adics fields are linked here, making the "flame" in form of flux tubes, fusing the sheets?
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My point is that there are so much consciousness "left over" in the body, not used to anything
else but memories. Hypnosis etc. can take these memories into consideration. They are also seen in
split-brain patients.
This must mean there are different hierarchies of Consciousness beginning from almost nothing
in kind of 'automatic consciousness' and built up into awareness in working "flame" where the
cognition also is extracted. But there must also be hierarchies in cognitions as there are hierarchies
of selves? Some sort?
Consciousness is more like "saved memories" of consciousness in the body/sense organs. The
phospholylation-link is very interesting here as I have seen them as saved frequencies of some kinds
or topological islands. Thoughts and emotions are "raising up from the body" many times (say in
walking). T hey need some energy to get into awareness, either from your intention, meaning,
emotional status, or from the body itself. This is very much the meaning of pain.
Also the enzyme is interesting, linked to the same form in Carbon and Water. What this means
is a metabolic question? Oxygen and Nitrogen also need to be there. Then you have the molecules
of Life (and negentropy?).
I often get the picture you are running hard and my feet are hardly touch the ground when I try to
follow :)
11. At 4:47 AM, matpitka@luukku.com said...
Ulla,
I am not saying that sensory perceptions are Classical measurements. I am saying that
fundamental character of quantum measurements is that they make the world to look Classical.
When you measure whether Schroedingers cat is dead or alive, you find that it is dead or alive but
not both.
Interference is possible for similar field components. For instance, wave components
representing electric field propagating in same direction. Therefore it does not make sense to speak
about interference of EM fields and Josephson currents. It would be like summing temperature and
pressure. All this is difficult to understand without appropriate mathematics but it becomes totally
trivial when one has it.
The basic problem is lack of common language. Mathematics is an extremely abstract, technical,
and powerful language. But writing everything using formulas is not practical. Hence words like
interference, entanglement, coherence, etc. These words provide a loose higher level language.
Unfortunately, this language is misleading without the understanding of the lower level language
based on precise mathematical notions.
Sad that human life span is so short. One can become a concert pianist or mathematician but
very rarely both;-).
12. At 11:28 PM, Ulla said...
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The Schrödinger cat is one particle only. But for the biological effects, you need the many-body
state and there you can have the dead and alive state in total. After all, humans are more dead than
alive, usually. And I am an concert pianist that not even know how to play :)
Krennikov use the many minds approach. What are your thoughts about him? He doesn't use padics as cognition medium but uses p-adics in his theory. I feel it is quite good except the cognition.
Quantum waves are transmitting consciousness as superpositions. But how are they made
commutative for linear transmission? I like the basic idea, though.
http://www.quantum-mind.co.uk/andrei-khrennikov-c452.html
13. At 12:35 AM, matpitka@luukku.com said...
Ulla:
I have been in contact with Khrennikov and even visited Växsjo.
As a mathematician, Khrennikov has written a book about p-adic analysis. His approach in this
book is different from mine. He sees the number theoretic constraints posed by p-adics as a
hindrance and introduces maximal algebraic extension of p-adics analogous to algebraic numbers.
For me, these constraints are absolutely essential and Evolution would be generation of extensions of
rationals and p-adics with increasing dimension and algebraic complexity would correlate with
evolutionary level. One could talk about number theoretical quantization in this framework.
Khrennikov has proposed a 2-adic model for neural networks in brain. Tree-like structures
which branch again and again. Also some ideas involving 4-adicity (4-adic numbers are not a field
but ring) in the case of DNA code. My own purely mathematical models of the genetic code have
not led to any big insights whereas the dark matter-inspired view predicts all the basic numbers
related to the code and even more.
Khrennikov has also proposed a brain model involving notions assigned to psychology. This is
of course something out of question in Finland where independent thinking has been criminalized in
academic circles. In fact, I had the honor to serve as a referee of some articles of Khrennikov;-) .
Khrennikov has proposed a p-adic approach to the Bell inequalities. The idea is that p-adic
counterparts of classical probabilities might allow one to describe state function events which do not
allow description in terms of ordinary real probabilities. Experimentally, these events are observed
and this means death of hidden variable theories aiming to reduce Quantum Theory to Classical
Physics. Interference effects due to the fact that Quantum Theory is in some sense the square-root of
probability theory, prevent the reduction to Classical Physics. I am skeptical about the reduction to
Classical Physics using p-adic probabilities. It is too tricky. I however hasten to admit that during
first years of p-adics physics I also considered seriously some tricky ideas inspired by p-adic
mathematics.
Khrennikov has also discussed the idea that brain performs quantum-like processing without
being quantal. To me, this looks quite too cautious and means losing the basic gift of Quantum
Theory -- i.e., the possibility to get grasp on what consciousness is. Using the phrase "quantum-like"
instead of "quantal" is probably wise since academic survival poses very strong constraints on what
one can say. DNA as a topological quantum computer is my own proposal for how the brain
processes informations and builds memory representations using braiding.
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