UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
Interview #1402
ASCHHEIM, STEVEN
ASCHHEIM, STEVEN (1942- )
Graduate student (History)
At UW: 1975-1980
Interviewed:
Interviewer:
Index by:
Length:
2014 (2 sessions)
John Tortorice
Jill Slaight
1 hour, 50 minutes
Abstract: In his 2014 interviews with John Tortorice, Steven Aschheim charts his
personal background and his career as an historian, focusing on his relationship with
George Mosse. He discusses his childhood in South Africa, early academic interests,
involvement in the Zionist youth movement in Israel, relationship with George Mosse,
decision to attend UW-Madison, and later work as an historian. Aschheim devotes
particular attention to describing George Mosse’s involvement at Hebrew University in
Jerusalem and his academic persona at UW-Madison. Note: The subject matter of the
second interview chronologically precedes that of the first interview. The interviews were
conducted for inclusion into the UW-Madison Oral History Program.
Key Words: Nazi Germany; the Holocaust; South Africa; racism; Apartheid; Israel;
Jerusalem; Hebrew University; Zionism; Jewish youth movement (Habonim); UWMadison Department of History; George Mosse; Stanley Payne; Sterling Fishman; Klaus
Berghahn; Yehoshua Arieli; teaching; preliminary exams; Eagle Heights; German
history; Jewish history; German Jewish history; the cultural turn; the ghetto; Hannah
Arendt; assimilationism; Harvey Goldberg; Reid College; Portland, Oregon
First Interview Session: Digital File
Time
Keywords
00:00:00 Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction. The interviewer resumed from a
previous interview for which audio is not available.
00:00:08 Question: Service in the army? Answer: Steven Aschheim (SA) explained that he did
not serve in the army between 1968 and 1975, but only after returning to Israel in the
1980s.
00:00:38 Question: Affiliation with Hebrew University? Answer: SA described himself as “the
Goebbels of Israel” at this point, teaching in various student and youth groups. He did
not intend to become an academic. In 1968, he met George Mosse, then visiting
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Jerusalem. He recalled Mosse’s humorous remarks about the student movement. SA
decided to sit in on Mosse’s class on anti-Semitism. Mosse began the class by saying
the students looked like Aryans. Aschheim appreciated the way he spoke and they
eventually became friends over the course of Mosse’s various trips to Israel.
00:04:30 [no question] Aschheim recalled the moment Mosse proposed studying under him at
Madison. SA could not pursue a PhD in Israel because he could not write in Hebrew.
He knew nothing about Madison, but went in order to follow Mosse, who became the
“foremost influence” in his life. SA cited Mosse’s important role in his eventual
academic job placements.
00:07:57 [no question] Aschheim talked about a course on cultural history that Mosse gave at
Madison and that he and his wife Hannah attended. Although Mosse was a “model”
for SA and his peers, Aschheim reasserted the importance of his experience teaching
in Habonim.
00:09:58 [no question] SA returned to the question of Mosse’s influence on his life. He also
spoke about Mosse’s outsized influence within Jerusalem more broadly, although he
appalled other academics there (for example, by talking about masturbation in class).
Although no one knew he was gay at the time, the fact that he was an unmarried man
enabled a certain closeness with students. Likewise, back at Madison, Mosse often
“held court” at Memorial Union Terrace.
00:13:05 [no question] Aschheim reflected on Mosse’s closeness with his family. He shared
various humorous stories about him. For example, although Mosse agreed to be a
godfather to SA’s son Yoni, he was reticent to hold the baby for fear of dropping him.
As a PhD advisor, Mosse could be tough. But their relationship deepened
nonetheless.
00:15:34 [no question] The two men spoke at length before Mosse died. (Aschheim had
arrived in Madison just days before.) SA choked up recalling that Mosse told him, “I
could never tire of talking to you.”
00:17:40 Question: Graduate work at UW? Answer: SA described how Mosse secured him
funding for his first year at Madison. Later, Aschheim landed a teaching job through
Integrated Liberal Studies (ILS) (not a Teaching Assistant position).
00:19:50 [no question] Aschheim then faced his Prelim exams. He failed German history and
later learned that the advising professor in this subject had failed all of Mosse’s
students. SA and the interviewer discussed that professor’s attitudes toward Mosse.
00:22:04 Question: Teachers and coursework? Answer: At 33, SA was closer in age to his
teachers than his fellow students. In addition to Mosse, he became close to Sterling
Fishman, Stanley Payne, and Klaus Berghahn. Berghahn was his first non-Jewish,
German friend.
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Aschheim (#1402)
00:24:23 [no question] The interviewer commented on how George Mosse’s increased
involvement with Israel after the turbulent 1960s coincided with his diminished
engagement in Madison, both intellectually and personally. He linked this thought to
Aschheim’s entry into Mosse’s circle of friends in the 1980s. SA commented on
Mosse’s inclusiveness and briefly mentioned another student from Israel.
00:27:22 Question: Choice of dissertation topic? Answer: SA’s first choice of topic, Hannah
Arendt, fell through because SA could not gain access to her papers. Mosse suggested
he study the ghetto; Aschheim eventually focused the project on images of the ghetto.
SA mentioned that another mentor had suggested he study Theodor Fritsch, a German
anti-Semite, but Mosse rejected the idea as too narrow.
00:30:30 [no question] The interviewer brought up Mosse’s unconventional career trajectory.
Aschheim recalled that as a PhD student, he was not aware of Mosse’s work on
theology – a blind spot that cost him some embarrassment in one instance. SA
identified his mentor with his later work. Here he spoke briefly about variant
meanings of the phrase “cultural turn.” While focusing on imagery and symbolism,
Mosse did not associate with deconstruction. SA and the interviewer debated Mosse’s
relationship with this trend in the discipline.
00:36:12 [no question] The interviewer speculated that Aschheim was the first PhD student at
Madison to study a topic in Jewish history. SA noted that Hebrew University
separated Jewish history and general history, and he studied the latter. Then SA
explained why he regarded himself not solely as a Jewish historian, but as a German,
Jewish, cultural and intellectual historian.
00:38:57 [no question] Aschheim and the interview elected to discuss Mosse’s style as a
teacher and dissertation advisor. SA described Mosse’s booming voice, humor, and
use of repetition. He contrasted Mosse to Harvey Goldberg, whose classes felt more
like political rallies. To illustrate what he called Mosse’s “natural authority,”
Aschheim shared an anecdote about George reacting to an objecting student by
saying, “You are in the valley, I am on the mountain.” The interviewer commented
that Mosse liked to entertain but demanded serious attention. This led to a discussion
of some of Mosse’s physical ailments over the years.
00:46:21 [no question] While Aschheim was one of Mosse’s last doctoral students at Madison,
he worked with several others at Hebrew University. SA and the interviewer briefly
discussed those students.
00:48:34 Question: Mosse as a dissertation advisor? Answer: Aschheim explained that Mosse
allowed him to work independently. SA handed the completed dissertation to him and
“that was it.” Mosse was in Israel and thus not present for Aschheim’s defense, which
was brief and uncomplicated.
00:51:10 Question: Position at Reid College? Answer: Although Portland was beautiful and his
wife loved living there, SA did not enjoy his time there. He described the department
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as petty and provincial. He left after two years.
00:53:38 Question: Position in Jerusalem? Answer: Mosse was aware that Aschheim was
unhappy at Reid. He found SA an appointment in Israel through connections alone –
something possible at that time. SA briefly reflected on past and present ways of
hiring, noting that the old way worked for many people. Nevertheless, his colleagues
resented him before he even arrived. Acceptance took time. Follow-up: Colleagues at
that time? Answer: Aschheim mentioned Yehoshua Arieli as a positive influence, as
well as Michael Heyd and Gabriel Motzkin.
00:59:12 End of First Interview Session
Second Interview Session (November 28, 2014): Digital File
Time
Keywords
00:00:00 Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction.
00:00:31 Question: Where and when born? Answer: Steven Aschheim (SA) was born in
Johannesburg, South Africa in 1942. Follow-up: Family’s background in South
Africa? Answer: SA explained what he knew about how his parents, German Jewish
refugees, came to South Africa. His father arrived in 1936 and his mother slightly
earlier. She had just finished high school, living with a non-Jewish family after her
parents left in 1934. German Jews had organized a “self-help community.” In this
context, SA’s father had corresponded with his mother’s father, who found him a
place to stay. SA related an apocryphal story about his parents’ first meeting and
decision to marry. (He was 34 and she 17).
00:03:36 Question: His upbringing? Answer: SA said he grew up “in opulence” despite his
father’s humble beginnings in South Africa. His father had established a successful
dress and undergarment company. SA noted his (now embarrassing) discomfort with
his family’s standard of living.
00:05:30 Question: Involvement in Zionism? Answer: SA stepped back to describe South
African society at the time. Ethnicity and religion dictated one’s identity. Growing
up, he rarely interacted with people who did not belong to his ethnic and religious
community. Only members of the anti-apartheid movement pushed back against this
kind of exclusivity. He called the Zionist youth movement a “pseudo revolution”
because it respected ethnic boundaries, rather than challenge them.
00:08:27 Question: Interactions with black communities? Answer: Although black domestic
servants lived among the family, divisions were evident, even within the house.
Aschheim explained how his awareness of servants’ squalid living conditions
conflicted with his role as a “good Jewish bourgeois son.” He recalled singing
African songs in the kitchen as an “outlet,” albeit one that amounted to nothing. Here,
SA reflected on what he called the “self-indulgence” of whites, who assumed their
superiority.
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00:11:23 Question: Any discussion with his parents about their persecution in Germany versus
the persecution of blacks in South Africa? Answer: Aschheim restated that his parents
rarely elaborated on their past or cast themselves as victims. They were not indignant
about racism as a result of their personal experiences. Instead, they were grateful to
South Africa for having received them when other nations refused them.
Nevertheless, SA somehow “internalized the Holocaust.”
00:14:00 Question: Early knowledge of the Holocaust? Answer: SA said he learned about the
Holocaust on a “subliminal level,” picking up bits and pieces from his parents and the
media. But his knowledge was neither systematic nor theoretical. Follow-up: Any
connection between the Holocaust and Apartheid? Answer: SA did not establish an
immediate connection at the time.
00:17:11 Question: Schooling? Answer: Aschheim described his education at an authoritarian,
all-boys school. He learned next to nothing and bore the brunt of Anti-Semitism. SA
related one story in which his chemistry teacher instructed him that World War II was
fought “because of you people.” Aschheim politely disagreed and was sent to the
headmaster for caning. He and the interviewer briefly discussed how these
experiences were formative in his Zionism, but ultimately camaraderie with other
youth proved more important. SA reflected on his emotional connection to the
movement, distinguishing it from his intellectual engagement with it.
00:21:54 [no question] The interviewer commented on the intimacy enjoyed by members of
the Zionist youth movement (Habonim) into their adulthood. Aschheim remarked on
the trajectories of various friends, many of whom remained in Israel.
00:25:00 [no question] SA explained that George Mosse’s “hilarity” drew Aschheim to him –
not his accomplishments as a scholar. He recounted first meeting Mosse in 1968.
Aschheim and others had asked him how the student revolution had affected his
teaching. Mosse quipped that no revolution began before 2 p.m., whereas he taught at
10 a.m. SA and the interviewer reflected on Mosse’s attitudes toward the student
movement at that time.
00:26:54 Question: How did SA develop an interest in history? Answer: SA noted that he
earned a BA in sociology and political science and an MA in political sociology. He
looked to the youth movement to explain his intellectual awakening, recalling a
biography of Theodor Herzl he read at age fourteen. Attending university felt like a
“liberation.” But until then, history seemed uninteresting – a matter of memorization,
rather than interpretation. SA had planned to pursue a PhD in sociology on the very
abstract question of dehumanization. But Mosse challenged him to consider culture.
As a result, SA ended up following George “to Siberia” (e.g. Madison). He reflected
once more on how Mosse’s personality, rather than his academic persona, had
“sparked” him.
00:31:42 [no question] Aschheim and the interviewer discussed why or how George Mosse
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impacted undergraduate students. Aschheim reflected on his former mentor’s
“capacity to personalize” with nearly anyone. He recalled that when Mosse met SA’s
mother, he said to her, “Do you know that your son is the Goebbels of Israel?” He
connected to people with shock and humor.
00:35:59 Question: Relation of his teaching style to Mosse’s? Answer: SA said that his style
drew largely from the youth movement with its emphasis on drawing and sustaining
interest. He also modeled his style on Mosse, though he lacked his “guts.” Aschheim
shared a humorous anecdote mentioned earlier about Mosse’s sense of authority.
00:38:20 Question: Return to Hebrew University? Answer: Aschheim was hired in 1982, in
part because of his connection to Mosse. Follow-up: His position within the field of
German Jewish history? Answer: SA first interjected on the camaraderie of his former
colleagues in the youth movement. Then he discussed the evolution of German
Jewish history. Scholars did not originally form a close knit community. He
speculated that the field no longer resonated as much as it once did. SA also remarked
that his position in Israel affected his reading of German history.
00:44:20 [no question] The interviewer related a story about a relative of George Mosse who
advocated for assimilation. He and Aschheim briefly discussed the latter’s work on
Victor Klemperer and moved back to the subject of Mosse’s attachment to Israel. The
two also discussed Mosse’s insecurity as an asset.
00:50:39 End of Second Interview Session
End of Oral History #1402
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