UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Interview #87
RICHARDS, HUGH T.
RICHARDS, Hugh T. (1918- )
Professor of Physics
At UW: 1946-1988
Interviewed: 1977
Series: TA Strike, 1970
Interviewer: Laura Smail
Length: 4 hours
Background; Work on atom bomb during WWII; Los Alamos; Reasons for
coming to UW; Raymond Herb; Physics Department; Problems in hiring; Federal
grants and handling of overhead; Crowded conditions in Department; NSF's offer
to finance building addition; Competition with Mathematics Research Center for
space; Effort to set up separate college for sciences; Other problems as chairman;
Department mode of operation; Consideration of division into applied and
theoretical physics; Physical Science Divisional Committee's project for increased
interchange between UW and state industry; Bombing of Sterling Hall and year of
work repairing damage; West Campus Committee; Physics Department and TA
Strike; Faculty governance.
Tape 1/Side 1
00:00:06 Born in Colorado, 1918. Came to Wisconsin 1923. Grew up in Platteville. Park
College in Missouri, graduate work at Rice University, Houston.
00:02:39 Rice had a copy of Raymond Herb's electrostatic spectra. Completed Ph.D. in 1942.
Already involved in war work. Gregory Breit, UW, asked him to do work on
studying neutron spectrum of neutrons from uranium fission.
00:07:42 In October, he 1942 went to University of Minnesota for experiments on scattering of
neutrons. Stopped at the University of Chicago for briefings. Work in Minneapolis.
Question of where center would be. In April moved to Los Alamos.
00:09:43 Life in Los Alamos. Met Julian Mack, UW. The arrival of the UW electrostatic
accelerators. HR working with UW group. Describes their work. Later put HR in
charge of measuring neutrons from the first test. Preview in May to test blast gauges
Joe McKibbon, UW, in charge of timing and signals in both tests. The final test--
Hugh T. Richards (#87)
measuring instruments in helium balloons and on ground. Test so successful most of
the instruments were destroyed. Managed to retrieve some of the instruments.
00:20:31 Association of Los Alamos Scientists and Federation of American Scientists set up to
alert world to problems resulting from bomb. HR had offers from Princeton and
Illinois but decided on UW because of the accelerator--which he brought back to UW.
He had also been impressed with UW physicists' work. Came in May 1946.
00:23:16 Herb, Barschall, and Richards got the accelerator in operation, worked with it.
00:24:13 UW, Minnesota, Princeton, California had groups of physicists at Los Alamos.
Wisconsin contribution very large.
00:26:27 Talks about Raymond Herb, his origins, how he went to high school because wanted
to play football. Worked his way through UW.
00:29:05 Why Herb came from MIT. Had been impressed with the quality of lab technicians
there and had noted predominance of Midwesterners in physics and engineering.
Realized phenomena connected. Technicians if born in Midwest could go to the big
public universities and get education. In east couldn't afford, e.g. Harvard, MIT. So
Herb felt responsibility to go back and help carry on this opportunity. Realized his
discoveries exploited by eastern firms. A reason he started his own company in
Middleton to keep some of the development in Midwest
.
00:33:34 Appointed as research associate. Spent time getting experimental program going.
Research in UW physics department has always been related to educational program-student theses. Elsewhere work more likely to be professors' individual research,
post docs, etc.
00:36:26 HR asked to help out in teaching. Became assistant professor. Teaching loads much
higher than now. Physics had courses for engineers.
00:38:44 Discusses problems physics department had with allowing expansion of physics
department. Physics one of the first departments to get soft money, AEC contract.
Graduate enrollment way up. Terrific problem handling both teaching and work with
graduate students due to shortage of staff.
00:41:08 Dean Ingraham reluctant to have competitive salaries--that is, physics couldn't get
people at salaries UW willing to offer.
00:42:24 UW so new in the grants field that didn't want to charge any overhead to AEC for
AEC work, said would be doing work anyway. Accepted about 8%. Now overhead
2
Hugh T. Richards (#87)
and fringe benefits over 70% of support money. For many years exceptionally low
overhead charges compared to other places.
00:44:56 Eventually staff allowed to grow, but at one time nearly lost some of the best
department offers. Ingraham unwilling to offer enough money to keep them.
Physical science divisional committee went to the lengths of making known publicly
danger to UW of losing top flight faculty. Object was to keep physics down so
wouldn't be ahead of other departments, e.g. English, history.
00:46:41 An attempt to hire John Bardeen, a co-discoverer of transistor. Would have come but
UW offered less salary than his sister was getting as anesthetist. Went to Illinois, got
Nobel prize. Physics department very frustrated.
00:48:56 Ragnar Rollefson chairman at this time. Not aggressive enough pushing department.
When he left temporarily for government job, HR made chairman.
00:50:35 Divisional committee pushing to have UW keep a strong faculty. Elvehjem and
Ingraham both very conservative. Committee made public resolutions and
statements.
00:51:38 E.B. Fred involved in the Bardeen interchange.
00:53:17 When HR became chairman two big problems were staff and space. Exceptionally
crowded, basement and first floor in Sterling. HR's office had been a storeroom,
inside without windows. Department angry at not having been given space
commensurate with needs. Ingraham partly at fault. L&S largest college but most of
new buildings went to law, engineering, ag. Ingraham pushed only for library.
Physics was to get space after chemistry got its own building, i.e. physics would
move in vacated floors.
00:54:52 NSF would have given money for a building addition but Kurt Wendt and Ingraham
vetoed it. Had idea of expanding into spaces at corner of Linden and Charter so
wouldn't have to wait for chemistry to move. Went to Campus Planning Committee
which turned it down because Harrington wanted that space for humanities
(Harrington was vice president then).
00:58:38 Rollefson had gotten money from WARF to build a wing to Sterling, or at least a
basement and floor for new accelerator space; but math department wanted space for
math research center, needed three stories for it. Astronomy put on 5th and 6th
floors. So physics tied up. Didn't want MRC there. Then because MRC was there,
math decided to build Van Vleck close by instead of across University Avenue as
originally planned, so that space for physics.
3
Hugh T. Richards (#87)
01:00:46 When Commerce moved out, physics got its space; and when social studies and
economics moved out, got their space.
01:01:46 Part of it due to having one large college with just one dean. Law school has a dean
but had no more faculty than physics department. Small colleges have advantages.
Barschall and HR tried to talk administration into splitting up L&S. Another reason
is, humanly impossible for L&S dean to be familiar with problems of forty
departments. Can't even know staff. Can't be effective leader.
01:03:09 Young, when he became dean, had associate deans for the four divisions. Ed Young
actually came to a department and looked at space and interviewed staff. Young
managed well because there was plenty of money. At present dean cannot exercise
intelligent judgement; either has to treat everyone the same or use a system of
fractional cuts. Can't know. Young receptive to idea.
01:05:46 End of Tape 1.
Tape 2
00:00:15 Young receptive to idea. Would have liked Jim Watrous to be head of college of fine
arts but Watrous not in favor. HR thinks should at least divide science from arts.
Harrington not in favor. His reasons. HR and Barschall went and talked to him about
it at the time Ingraham resigned. Harrington said thought physics would fare better
under Young. And this was true, but basic problem of size of college didn't go away.
00:06:22 So a more aggressive chairman and a more sympathetic dean could have made for a
stronger department, though HR thinks Rollefson's judgment on staff were excellent.
00:07:30 When HR became chairman he institutes office of assistant chairman to help out on
problems where continuity would be important. Also ended practice of chairman
serving indefinitely. Converse Blanchard was made assistant Chairman and still
holds that job. He has been very good with students. HR wanted three year term but
has been hard to find people who will serve more than two years. People feel their
research suffers too much if neglected for more than two years.
00:13:17 The democratic operation of the physics department. Chairman has relatively little
power. Recruitment is handled by group involved, e.g. high energy physics. When
department was smaller each member prepared a list of how he would distribute
money available for salary raises, and actual raises were worked out from these. But
when it got bigger had a salary and promotions committee.
4
Hugh T. Richards (#87)
00:15:49 The departmental council was instituted a few years ago. Met once a week. A
cabinet for chairman. Has diluted power of chairman. Makes it easier to get people
to serve as chairman. And is a training ground for future chairman. Consumes more
time. Chairman has to go to meetings and has to consult.
00:20:17 There is no organizational division in the department, as in chemistry or history.
00:21:36 Regular bi-weekly meetings of faculty at University Club. Large proportion attend.
The alternate Friday also a lunch meeting and various groups invited, e.g. another
department, students, etc. No program, completely informal.
00:25:49 The department colloquia. Graduate students required to attend. Usually have
around 200.
00:30:26 Chairman hasn't been disputed, that is, never two candidates running against each
other. The process of selecting. Not a job for the power hungry.
00:34:04 Only two or three in department who never come to meetings. Everyone is assigned
to at least one committee.
00:36:06 Chairman gets no rewards, only a lighter teaching load.
00:38:51 Discusses competition among areas in department for additions to staff. Not a
problem yet. Department committee has established priorities. Department hires by
quality rather than area.
00:40:01 One problem in physics, resulting from lack of space for so many years, is that can't
offer much to experimental physicists--no space for them to do research in. So heavy
emphasis on theoretical physicists. By the time they got space, no possibility of
adding staff. So emphasis is on mathematical part of physics rather than on
laboratory experiments.
00:43:06 Makes for a teaching problem. Theorists not so good on teaching lab courses and
elementary physics where demonstrations are called for.
00:44:35 After war, students chose academic or government jobs over industrial jobs. Thus
industry got the poorer students and was sour on academically trained students. Now
academic market has dried up so only opportunities are government labs or industry.
UW has prepared students better for industrial jobs than some institutions. HR had
noted at Los Alamos skill of UW students in designing and working with equipment.
00:49:03 Herb felt department pushing more toward theoretical side. Some push toward
dividing departments into applied and theoretical physics. A more powerful push
5
Hugh T. Richards (#87)
towards joining with engineering. Barschall in 90% in engineering and is pleased.
Dean much more accessible. Knows what is going on.
00:54:32 Cost of physics department. Cost per credit hour depends on how bookkeeping is
done. One thing is whether you count research as graduate education. Physics still
gets three or four million dollars a year from outside sources. UW gets a large
amount in overhead. Larger outside support than almost any department except for
the medical school.
00:58:03 Plasma physics has more students than can handle. Very much in need of staff. High
energy physics has largest budget and largest staff. Are away a lot. Have to do
experiments elsewhere.
01:00:37 Discusses question of whether outside support could cease. Solid state physics has
had fluctuations in support. Have back up from WARF.
01:05:23 Contrast between work of building committee in 1957-58--working on wing for
Sterling Hall and that for Chamberlin Hall. Proliferation of work. Have to have 20
people at meeting. If you try to make changes you delay everything; alternative is to
rubber stamp what the architect does.
01:07:14 End of Tape
Tape 3
00:00:06 More on building committee. East wing of Sterling, late 1950s. HR was faculty
representative. Architect from a Milwaukee firm. Simple procedures.
00:01:36 Also on building committee for Chamberlin Hall, attached to Sterling. Red tape
made exceedingly hard, frustrating work. Camarini and HR the principal faculty
people involved. Describes process. Due to architects incompetence, HR and
Camarini had to do some of the actual planning.
00:07:28 Comments on the early days of the research contract. Set up so as to go through
graduate school. Juta Riley, assistant to Elvehjem, then dean of graduate school, very
skillful. L&S deans didn't like the arrangement. When Young was dean of L&S the
arrangements went through L&S office, and still do, but has not had to get dean's
signature. Business office does the checking on funds requested.
00:13:30 When HR was physical science divisional chairman, the committee pushed a project
to get the University to recognize usefulness of dealing with industrial people in state.
Had seen success of ag school's program with farmers. Supported by both Young and
6
Hugh T. Richards (#87)
Harrington. Has helped dissipate atmosphere of antagonism between industrial
research and UW.
00:17:11 Jack Duffie, a dean of graduate school, has been involved in it.
00:18:09 The philosophy of it.
00:19:51 The period preceding the bombing of Sterling Hall. AMRC the center of agitation on
campus. On middle floors of Sterling Hall. Rudolph Langer, director, had kept doors
locked and physics department didn't have good relations with it. When J. B. Rosser
was director, no more locked doors. Langer a difficult person. Ingraham afraid to
tackle him on subject.
00:21:46 Professor Barschall's concern about the rising unrest. A German, had seen rise of
Nazis. Feared same developments here. He had metal venetian blinds installed in
physics department. Rest of department not worried. Department anti-war. Active
and vocal against it.
00:27:22 The bombing. HR's wife heard the explosion and awakened him. Got a phone call
from Haeberli that it was Sterling Hall. Describes ensuing events. Barschall's
students were on the accelerator that night. Schuster and Quinn. Fassnacht was
Dillinger's student. Dillinger died of a heart attack last year.
00:32:13 Chairman of department, Loyal Durand, didn't return, so HR asked to serve as acting
chairman to supervise reconstruction of nuclear physics lab.
00:33:18 Condition of the accelerator. Making the repairs. Little damage to math center.
Astronomy more damaged that MRC. Physics labs and offices. Insurance.
Difficulties of replacing equipment. Accelerator usable in December.
00:41:16 Departure from department of Barschall and Borchers. Barschall now Bascom
professor in nuclear engineering. HB's criticism of Durand.
00:45:12 International Conference on Polarized Neutrons held here week after bombing.
00:46:07 Press coverage of bombing very poor. Except New York Times.
00:48:25 Rebuilding. Yamamoto, state architect.
00:51:19 Effect on research. Students bore brunt of loss.
00:53:28 Contrast between Dean Epstein's idea of what an R.A. and what a physics R.A. does.
Professor's role.
7
Hugh T. Richards (#87)
00:57:25 Damage to the computer. Had been built by Borchers. He worked on reconstruction
of it. Subsequently moved into administration. Now vice chancellor. Barschall and
Borchers' departure major loss to department. For a while difficult to attract students.
01:00:17 Collaboration of physics department and department at University of Sao Paulo,
Brazil. Professor Herb's University of Sao Paulo leadership. NSF contributed
money.
01:03:20 End of side.
Tape 4
00:00:05 Opposition among physical scientists to broad survey courses--too superficial.
Opposition of a group. Bob Clodius was pushing the idea. 1961. Opposition
succeeded.
00:06:14 West Campus Committee. Kaplan, Penniman, Sorum, Kleene, Rodman, Bruce
Davidson, Ed Foster. Reported to 1963-64 Clodius. Question of expanding
enrollments projected. Possibility of setting up a satellite campus. Harrington and
Clodius were pushing it. Dean Young arranged to have HR chairman. Committee
urged diverting to other campuses.
00:16:17 Mermin Committee and Committee on Equity in Graduate Appointments and
Support. Student representation. Comments on effects of.
00:23:52 HR dislikes committee work. Comments on system.
00:25:38 The divisional committees.
00:28:21 The appointment of Lee Pondrom. Getting Cyrena a job. Helen White's refusal.
Comparative Literature willing, and later English department.
00:30:45 Donald Kerst one of HR's appointees. Also Borchers, who was sponsored by
Barschall.
00:33:41 Secretarial help in the physics department.
00:35:30 There is a lounge but it's not used. Department too big, fragments.
00:37:14 HR eats at union cafeteria.
00:39:21 Student evaluations.
8
Hugh T. Richards (#87)
00:40:52 Comments about the physics department during the TA strike. Barbara Kennedy.
00:42:57 Quality of high school preparation. Calculus prep better than algebra.
00:44:46 Attitude of students as good as it was after WWII.
00:45:26 Effect of use of pocket calculators. About 80% use them.
00:48:46 On question of English and language requirements.
00:50:32 Median time for Ph.D. is between 5 and 6 years. Job market has an effect. And
students don't work as hard.
00:52:09 Comments on Chancellor Young.
00:53:18 Scientists and faculty governance.
00:55:24 HR's main effort has been in training graduate students. Now not necessary.
Comments on this.
00:58:57 HR's comments on UW--democracy of departments, good administrators. A
recollection of A.W. Peterson--his judgment that presidents, administrators, should be
taken from faculty. HR's views of Fred, Elvehjem, Harrington, Young, Fleming,
A.W. Peterson.
01:05:29 Peterson at one time had enough money to put faculty on annual appointments (L&S),
but Ingraham opposed, and next year legislature reduced budget by that amount.
01:08:00 Irving Shain.
01:09:30 End of tape. End of interview.
END
9