UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ARCHIVES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
Interview #1284
ROUSE, MARY
ROUSE, MARY (1945- )
Bachelors Degree in Classical Studies; Masters in Ancient Greek language and Literature from
MSU
Admissions Counselor at UW-Madison 1967
Equal Opportunity Program Admissions Counselor (1968-1971)
Transfer & International Student Admissions (1971-1973)
Assistant Dean of Students (1973-1987)
Dean of Students (1987-1999)
Director of the Morgridge Center for Public Service (2000-2005)
Interviewed:
Interviewer:
Index by:
Length:
2012 (1 session 06062012)
Christine Haas (Joe Elder & Molly Occhino)
Christine Haas
1 hours, 43 minutes
Abstract: In her June 2012 interview with Christine Haas, Mary Rouse tells of her
childhood in upstate New York. She talks about her college experience, meeting her
husband and how she began her career at UW-Madison. She details the campus climate
from the mid 60’s through 2012. She explains her experiences of diversity involvement
with the lesbian and gay community as well as people of color. She details her various
job titles, descriptions of her duties, campus activities, her sister’s life and death, Sickle
cell anemia, and democracy. This interview was conducted for inclusion into the UWMadison Oral History Program.
Key Words: Childhood, upstate- New York, Dysfunctional family, wild thing, head
strong, scholarship, MSU, Michigan State University, East Lansing, Latin, Greek,
democracy, Woodrow Wilson Fellowship, husband, German, University of Wisconsin
Madison, Tuberculosis, hospitalized, Lansing, deferred admission, first child,
Undergraduate Admissions office, Admissions Counselor, Student Affairs Career, Ruth
Doyle, Governor Jim Doyle, Equal Opportunity Program, 1968, on strike, recruiting,
advising, picking up students, Milwaukee, Chicago, class selection, text books, African
American hair care products, Rhonda Norsetter, financial aid, disparity in public
education, intercity school, math entrance exam, remedial math, Transfer & International
Student admissions, “bring home the bacon”, another child, Dean Paul Ginsberg, new
positions, Assistant Dean of Students Women’s Studies program fledgling program
Kathryn (Kay) Clarenbach, founding member, National Organization of Women,
“WEB notebook”, Women’s Exchange Branch, of the campus assistant center liaison,
sororities, fraternities, Job duties, Assistant Dean, worked with student groups, study
Rouse_Mary_06062012
release, liaison for prisons and jails, lesbian & gay groups, older sister, sexual orientation,
range of human sexuality, anthropology, every culture studied, Dean of Students, 1987,
advised, Pro-Family, adopted, niece, women’s locker room, shell, protested, law suit,
equal pay for equal work, May 14, 1987, equality, elimination of all kinds of
discrimination, societies, fewest, social problems, constituencies, treated fairly,
participate equally, affirmative action candidate, Interim Chancellor Bernie Coan,
Donna Shalala, Chancellor, June 1987, 1988, goals, talented people, pay roll,
discrimination, sexual harassment, computers, Jan Sheppard, faculty senate, university
committee, LGBT community, United, Outreach, Outreach Ally of the Year July 2000,
very troubled, psychopathic, Friday the 13th, murdered, ex-girlfriend, committed suicide,
dyke, two less dykes in the world, Susan Lampert Smith, “snap” decision, horrible act,
front page, Wisconsin State Journal, perfect family, plastic, K-Mart, husband, UW
Chemistry Librarian, violence, NO TOLERACE policy, every single complaint,
investigated, disciplinary policy, by law, alcohol, clear picture, Pi Lambda Phi, Jews,
Caucasian, Christian, eliminate, prejudice behavior, transgender, in-service, gender roles,
Bob Marley, “Stand Up For Your Rights”, Big 10 Campuses, compare, progressive,
front edge, protests, sit-ins, ROTC, “sleep over” protest, Bascom, Army, apologizing,
Students stayed silent, Joe Elder, Jo Elder, PFLAG, schools, community, sex in
washrooms, on campus, administration, police reports, Humanities building, Bascom
Hall, Campus Police, strong stance, appropriate place, sexual activity, David
Clarenbach, legislature, first anti-discrimination laws for gays & lesbians, “gentle
advice”, bathroom surveillance, critical remarks, Aids epidemic, Richard Keeling,
University Health Services, student teams, STD’s, prevention, JD Kabler, Blue Bus, safe
place, university community, John Torphy, counselors, Director of the Morgridge
Center, lifelong commitment to public service, functioning democracy, teaching
methodology, Black Colleges, Faith based colleges, academic, credit, service learning,
community based research, public universities, hands on, opportunities, co- curricular
work, Badger Volunteers, Student altruism, curricular based service, New Orleans,
Dillard, Zavior, converting, Red Gym, “crummy little spaces”, Fire Bombed in 1970,
cats, centrally located, architecturally distinct, significant, new students, “Biggest Gym in
the West”, “Fighting” Bob Lafollette, inaugural party, historically, preserve, adaptively
use, opposition, any improvement, NAACP, endorsed, President Obama’s, same sex
marriage point of view, church doctrine, queer people of color, visibility, poster, coming
out publicly, leadership, baby, screams, traditional aged students, non-traditional aged
students, Bus Pass, Don’t forget to Scream!, form a council, get organized, get an
agenda, make a plan, Trans community on campus, Laura Gutknecht, under the radar,
“Conundrum”, lots of people, a leader, scrappy, “Community Outreach Liaison”, donate
blood, blood transfusions, Sickle cell anemia, Ron Dayne, Honorary Co-chair,
community impact award, grandmother, age gracefully, swims, ride her bicycle, reads,
retired, university payroll, beloved community, archives, David Null, perspective, highly
sensitive, personal, Aids epidemic, Red Cross, pretty traditional agency, Former Dean of
School of Nursing, Vivian Littlefield, Red Cross National board, curriculum.
First Interview Session (December 12, 2006): Digital File
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Time
Keywords
00:00:00 Start of Interview/Interviewer’s Introduction
00:00:28 Question: Could you tell me about your childhood?
Answer: Lived in different small towns in upstate New York; “sticks”.
Dysfunctional family, frequent moving and parental discourse. Mother died when
she was 12 years old, father when she was 17. One sibling; older sister. Mary and
her sister worked as a unit, lived by their wits. No parental supervision after mother
died. Mary says she was a “wild thing” & “head strong”. Mary loved schools calm
peaceful environment.
00:02:20 [no question:] Earned scholarship to MSU – Michigan State University in East
Lansing. Never visited campus before attending. Worked in a Movie Theater during
high school; worked on campus at MSU during college. Took four years of Latin in
high school, very interested in learning Greek, and how and where democracy came
from. Earned her undergraduate degree in Classical Studies, 1965. Received the
Woodrow Wilson Fellowship, didn’t need to work that year. Met and married
husband whom she is still married to.
00:06:00 [no question:] Her husband had been admitted to the German department at
University of Wisconsin Madison. He then contracted very serious illness; rare form
of Tuberculosis in his hip joint. He was hospitalized in Lansing for surgery and
recovery. UW-Madison deferred his admission for a semester. At the same time
(unexpectedly) they had their first child. When they finally got to Madison they had
no money and Mary set out to find ANY job she could get. Walked into
Undergraduate Admissions office, they needed to hire an Admissions Counselor.
Interviewed her Dec. 07, 1967…started work on Dec.11th ; her birthday. No idea that
there was such a thing as a Student Affairs Career; just looking to bring home “the
bacon”.
00:08:24 [no question:] Shortly after she started, Ruth Doyle (late mother of WI’s former
Governor Jim Doyle) created a new Equal Opportunity Program at UW-Madison.
Black students on campus in 1968, on strike - white director in charge of the program.
Needed someone in admissions and student financial aid to work with the director;
they said Mary could do it! Saw the university through the eyes of students of color.
“They taught me more than I ever did them.” Job duties were vast and all
encompassing; recruiting, advising, picking up students, stayed overnight on Indian
Reservation, intercity Milwaukee and Chicago. Helped students with everything from
class selection and text books to finding African American hair care products.
Rhonda Norsetter worked on financial aid side they did it all.
00:11:10 [no question:] Mary’s eyes were opened to the disparity in public education. Students
with 4 years of high school math in an intercity school didn’t rank high enough on
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math entrance exam to be place in remedial math. The more diverse the university
could become the better education everyone gets. Mary held this job for 3 years.
Then worked for Transfer & International Student admissions for 2 years; still just
looking to “bring home the bacon”. They “got another child to raise”.
00:13:54 [no question:] Mary never wanted to make a lot of money. Went after job openings
that looked interesting, or others recommended her for them. 1973 – Dean Paul
Ginsberg created two new positions; Assistant Dean of Students. (Opportunity to
shape the job somewhat). Women’s Studies program (fledgling program) – Kathryn
(Kay) Clarenbach one of the founding member of National Organization of Women
(and Mary’s neighbor for 21 years); wanted Women’s Studies academic program
connected with the women’s groups & organizations in the community. Mary created
a “WEB notebook” of organizations in the city & county (Women’s Exchange
Branch, of the campus assistant center.) Job duties as Assistant Dean; liaison
sororities & fraternities, worked with student groups, liaison for prisons and jails
(study release), and worked with newly formed student organization groups – lesbian
& gay groups.
00:17:03 [no question:] (Mary briefly drops back in her history to discuss her older sister.) By
the time Mary was 10; her sister 121/2 Mary knew her sister’s sexual orientation was
different than hers. Witnessed the way her sister would look at the girls vs. boys
when they went swimming- she was far more interested in the girls. Didn’t
understand it; assumed there must be a range of human sexuality. Her belief was
confirmed in college anthropology; every culture ever studied, has witnessed this
range of human sexuality.
00:19:10 [no question:] Dean of Students position opened up in 1987, Paul Ginsberg retired.
Mary was advised to put her name in the hat. Mary was very Pro-Family, (she and
her husband had been raising and adopted her niece) Mary had been involved with a
group requesting a women’s locker room at the “shell”; wrote letters for 2 ½ years.
Participated with the group who protested by showering in the men’s locker room.
Mary had somebody walk into her office and hand her a check for $1000.00 – She
had been named (un-knowingly) by Kay Clarenbach, in a law suit for equal pay for
equal work; a man hired after Mary for the same job was making more for doing the
same job. She didn’t know she wasn’t getting equal pay. Her consciousness was
continually being raised.
00:21:50 [no question:] Mary decided to put her name in the running for Dean of Students.
Mary wanted the following read into record specifically.
May 14, 1987- To the search and screen committee: “My commitment to equality
and the elimination of all kinds of discrimination against people is a matter of
record. I learned a long time ago that the societies in which there are the fewest
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social problems are those where all constituencies are treated fairly and able to
participate equally.”
150 people applied, once in top 20 she felt she was the affirmative action candidate
all others were male, once in top 5 made her realize she had a chance. Interim
Chancellor Bernie Coan hired her in summer of 1987 to start in fall of 1987. Donna
Shalala named Chancellor in June 1987 – started in January of 1988. Mary thought
they could work together well.
00:24:06 [no question:] For each job Mary took she had goals that she wanted to accomplish.
“First off, you never get anything done by yourself, you have to have a team of the
smartest most talented people you can find and you’ve got to get them on your pay
roll.” As Dean she had 3 goals; 1st goal human rights, discrimination and sexual
harassment, 2nd goal was to increase diversity on campus, 3rd goal was to increase 1st
year students experience. Mary found that Chancellor Shalala had very similar goals.
00:26:26
[no question:] Talked with each staff member to check the climate and create a bond
with all staff (very helpful). Asked Bernie Coan for money to acquire computers
technology. Formed a committee to work with lesbian and gay community. Mary
kept a file of potential resumes. Asked Jan Sheppard to come work with her; Jan
was key person who worked with this committee. She was promoted to assistant
dean. Eventually it moved lesbian and gay issues into the faculty senate and
university committee to get attention to the issue.
00:32:32 [no question:] Lots going on in the lesbian and gay community at that time. Mary is
an ally to the LGBT community. Served on the board of the United; board later
merged into Outreach. Mary was Named Outreach ally of the year in July 2000.
00:34:08 Question: Did your sister ever come to terms with her sexuality?
Answer: Yes she came out as a lesbian. She was a very troubled individual, (possibly
psychopathic). On Friday the 13th, her sister murdered her ex-girlfriend and then
committed suicide. Huge deal in the Madison community, (Mary was Dean at this
time). A friend of Mary’s called and told her she overheard in a bar; “one dyke killed
another dyke, isn’t that great two less dykes in the world”. Upset Mary a great deal!
Monday morning Susan Lampert Smith requested an interview with Mary. Mary
made a “snap” decision and agreed. Wanted the community to know this horrible act
had nothing to do with her sister’s sexual orientation. Front page of the Wisconsin
State Journal next day, “Holy Cow, I forgot to tell the Chancellor”. Chancellor called
Mary, “You’ve got more grit than anybody I know and, whatever it takes to put you
back together. We’re going to support you 100%.” Mary received over 500 letters
because of the article (overwhelmingly positive). Mary was quoted saying, “There is
only one perfect family I’ve found and they are plastic and found at K-Mart”.
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00:40:39 [no question:] “You never know what’s around the corner.” These threads continue.
I would like to continue to help. Husband was UW Chemistry Librarian.
00:41:45 Question: Do you remember any violence towards diverse people; lesbian, gay,
people of color?
Answer: We had a NO TOLERACE policy. Every single complaint was
investigated. If there was a violation of this policy, we would take action as allowed
by law and disciplinary policy. Lots of incidents; many times alcohol involved
difficult to get a clear picture of what actually happened.
00:44:17 [no question:] Mary works with fraternity, Pi Lambda Phi, founded by Jews who
couldn’t get into other fraternities. Eliminate prejudice contest. They are Caucasian
Christian men who are trying to eliminate prejudice behavior. Student to student
educating around tolerance and acceptance; students tend to be forgiving and tolerant
to understand each other.
00:45:48 [no question:] Laura Gutknecht invited to tell her story of being transgender to
faculty & staff at an in-service retreat; incredible story of her life and living outside
gender roles. Mary tries to help all, Bob Marley song “Stand Up For Your Rights”.
00:47:30 Question: Where did UW-Madison compare to other big 10 campuses being forward
or progressive?
Answer: On the front edge, not the leading edge. Our student organizations were
superb they were leading the way. They held protests and sit-ins on campus; outside
Donnas’ door. The students were right. ROTC
00:49:50 [no question:] There was a “sleep over” protest on Bascom about 50 lesbian and gay
students camped there. Woman (out lesbian) from Milwaukee who was discharged
from Army came to help students protest; took and immediate dislike for Mary. Said
a bunch of nasty things in her speech…“and I’ll bet you’ve never met a gay person or
had any experience with one.” to Mary. Students (many of who knew different)
stayed silent. Mary received a call later that night. It was that woman apologizing for
her words.
00:52:00 [no question:] The staff at UW-Madison was incredible. People like Joe Elder; and
his wife Jo Elder have made an incredible difference. Formed PFLAG, worked in
schools and community.
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00:52:32 Question: (Joe Elder) There was a time when there were problems with sex in
washrooms on campus; how was that dealt within the administration?
Answer: Remembers reading the police reports about gay sex in the washrooms in
the Humanities building and Bascom Hall. People were angry. Campus Police were
stationed outside the door. Mary had a very strong stance. “I don’t want any kind of
sex in any bathroom on our campus. A bathroom is not an appropriate place to
engage in sexual activity”. Campaign, “Don’t have sex in the bathroom.” Mary says
“I have no interest in anybody’s sexual orientation, unless I want to sleep with them;
then I want to know right away.”
00:55:13 [no question:] In 1972, David Clarenbach legislature, got passed the first antidiscrimination laws for gays & lesbians in the work place. Made up signs and told
the police to use “gentle advice”, they continued with the bathroom surveillance.
00:56:03 Question: (Joe Elder) Did you hear critical remarks from the gay community?
Answer: Some. There was a whole range. Some people wanted them kicked off
campus.
00:57:05 Question: After the Aids epidemic started was that dealt with in any certain way?
Answer: Mary hired Richard Keeling (A gay man himself) to lead University Health
Services. They formed student teams who went out and educated other students
about STD’s and prevention. JD Kabler started Blue Bus which did STD testing.
00:59:25 Question: You were involved with setting up the first staff position for LGBT staff to
work with students?
Answer: It was a mutual idea. We knew that these students need a safe place in the
university community. It wasn’t hard to get funded. John Torphy was told by
Donna that it was his job to find funding for Mary’s programs. When she stated as
Dean there was 8 counselors on staff for 40,000+ students. When she left there were
25 FTE counselor positions on staff.
01:03:46 [no question:] The last job Mary held was Director of the Morgridge Center for
Public Service (2000-2005). Opened 1996; all about democracy. Teaching students
that they need to make a lifelong commitment to public service. If everyone isn’t
participating you can’t have a well functioning democracy. Last job was the BEST;
because she got to work on democracy issues.
01:05:40 [no question:] In the late 80’s Mary learned about teaching methodology of
historically Black Colleges & Faith based colleges which used academic credit based
service learning & community based research. That was new to public universities.
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Professor works with a community based program to have students work were
necessary to best benefit the community and learn the material taught in class through
hands on opportunities.
01:09:04 [no question:] Morgridge center is trying to continue the fabulous tradition of
students doing co- curricular work; Badger Volunteers & Student altruism. Want to
add curricular based service. In part how New Orleans is being re-built with colleges
Dillard & Zavior working with the community. 50 to 60 classes now offered that are
service learning at UW-Madison. Very important to think about the possibilities in
any discipline. Where there is a staff member who wants to have a partnership with
the community.
01:13:48 Question: (Joe Elder) You were involved with converting the Red Gym into
something other than a big empty gym?
Answer: “I did!” It took 10 years. Concerned about how new students get to know
the campus and find their niche. Student services were in 10 different buildings on 12
different floors in “crummy little spaces”. Fire Bombed in 1970. Cats lived in it
from 1970-1996, looked like inside of charcoal pit. Roof leaked. It was a centrally
located, architecturally distinct; a significant building for new students to easily
identify. Came up with a plan; student government was very supportive. Gym was
built in 1893-1894; was historically the “Biggest Gym in the West”. (Madison WI
was considered “west” in 1894.) “Fighting” Bob Lafollette had his inaugural party
there. Proms were held there as well.
01:18:30 [no question:] Huge fight to get resources to renovate and historically preserve and
adaptively use. A lot of opposition. Started in 1988 and it reopened in 1998. Donna
had Mary head up a committee to figure out a use for it. LGBT center there now.
01:22:25 Question: (Joe Elder) You have always been concerned about African Americans and
the LGBT students, have you seen any improvement in the sharing of concerns
between the two groups?
Answer: I’ve always been concerned. NAACP has endorsed President Obama’s
same sex marriage point of view. That’s incredible! Slow gradual process.
01:26:01 Question: (Joe Elder) The Black Pastors are they caught in between?
Answer: They have to follow the church doctrine. They are caught in that. The river
of change is coming. It will take a long time.
01:27:50 Question: (Mollie Ochino) Historically you were talking about the student
organizations and the 50 person sit in on Bascom etc., how were queer peoples of
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colors visibility?
Answer: Very small. Very few. The most success she had with queer students of
color was a poster I had on my door. (It said; Come out Come out wherever you are.)
They would come in individually, but they weren’t interested in coming out publicly
and working with the “movement”. There is much work to do, lots of opportunity for
leadership.
01:28:56 [no question:] “One of best thing about a baby is if she doesn’t like something she
screams. The older we get the less likely we are to scream.” Traditional aged
students and even non-traditional aged students have lead so many good movements.
Bus Pass. Don’t forget to Scream! You can’t have a movement without people; form
a council, get organized, get an agenda, make a plan.
01:30:48 Question: (Joe Elder) What can you tell us about Trans community on campus?
Answer: I don’t know too much. I just know Laura Gutknecht, I’ve met others but I
don’t know them. During her tenure it was under the radar. The book “Conundrum”
is a good book.
01:34:05 Question: (Joe Elder) Is there anything you feel we’ve left out?
Answer: Mary wants to emphasize, this was a movement with lots of people. “It’s
not about me. It’s about the large group of people.” Hopes she brought some
leadership to it. “I guess I am a leader, I got that way by having no parental
supervision; “that’s how I got so scrappy.”
01:35:02 Question: (Joe Elder) Can you just wrap up by telling us what you’re up to now?
Answer: I do exactly what I want to do. I work 10 hours a week at the Morgridge
Center for public service as a, “Community Outreach Liaison”. Every 8 weeks I
donate blood. Met a woman while donating blood; her son is 8 and has had over 100
blood transfusions. There is no cure for Sickle cell anemia. Ron Dayne was an
Honorary Co-chair; very successful. Got a community impact award for it! Next
drive is on Sept. 7th, 2012.
01:38:53 [no question:] Mary is a Grandmother. She is attempting to age gracefully; goes to
the gym, swims and ride her bicycle. She reads. When she retired from the university
payroll, told everyone; “I’m retiring from the payroll. Not from my beloved
community, if someone wants me or needs me I will continue to help.
01:40:23 [no question:] When Mary retired she put most of her material in archives, David
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Null. We have our perspective but this information is still highly sensitive and
personal.
01:41:08 Question: (Molly Occhino) Do you know about the response to gay men not being
able to give blood after the Aids epidemic?
Answer: No. The Red Cross wants to be 800% sure, pretty traditional agency. They
didn’t used to let older folks like me (67) donate blood. Now they welcome me with
open arms. Former Dean of School of Nursing, Vivian Littlefield on Red Cross
National board. Curriculum has been developed that has to do with Sickle cell
anemia, Aids, and STDs. Thinks it something we could do here at UW-Madison.
1:43:12
file closed.
End of Oral History #XXX
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