ChinaX 07 - discussion prompts
Discussion prompts 1
Table of Contents
2 If you were living in the year 1800, what would you have foreseen in China’s future 100
6 There were many factors that contributed to the conquest of China by the Manchus.
9 Why do you think the Qing’s efforts to limit the opium trade were ultimately
unsuccessful? Who do you think profited most from drug trafficking within China? ................ 5
10 How did the British see Lin Zexu’s taking hostage of opium traders in 1839? How did
Chinese see the same event? What can account for the different perspectives between
Discussion prompts 2
standing with China? Finally, with whom do you sympathize most in the letter? Why? ........... 6
17 What are his arguments for studying abroad? What does his letter say about Chinese
18 What kind of reform is Kang advocating? How does it compare to other models of reform
20 We have seen a number of interactions between China and the Western powers in late
Discussion prompts 3
1 In this week’s module, we will have a look at things we know and things we commonly hear about China that turn out to be false—or not completely true. To begin, what were some of your ideas about China before taking this course? Where did you acquire these ideas about China?
I don’t remember learning anything about China at any level of my school education, be it high school or university. This would mean that all I know about China has been acquired through personal interest: by following the news, by reading books about Chinese history and modern
China, by interacting with Chinese colleagues and friends.
The previous parts of Chinese history have confirmed some of my understandings of Chinese history and culture, but also widened my knowledge of the society and how some of it’s structures and ways continue until today, especially with regard to honouring family, the general idea that family is there to support and be supported (this makes absolute sense in times of rulers with little consideration for the population where everyone needs to support each other. Also, some periods encouraged self-rule of smaller units thereby giving them a chance to regroup and form a unified front against all others.
2 If you were living in the year 1800, what would you have foreseen in China’s future
100 years later?
Probably pretty much the same as it was by 1800. Details may have changed, but there would still be a strong ruling dynasty, officials and literati or at least something with similar functions, with trade going strong. In terms of religious beliefs, I would assume that people could imagine certain changes in affiliation percentages, but not the demise of any belief systems altogether. I certainly would not have foreseen massive change due to external influence, and internal strife would have been kept internal. External meddling with Chinese internal affairs would have been impossible to imagine in a strong state that is strong and ruled by a strong dynasty.
3 Are you surprised by the developments in commerce from the Qing to the present?
What period do you think would be the best to start a business in China? What period would be the worst?
It appears that – although modern times are good for business – the Qing period was a better time for private entrepreneurship to start a business. The main idea then was to set up a business to live and thrive as a person, a family, maybe also including the “company family” = workers who helped create products and income. Nowadays, business mainly concerns the gain of power and influence, outcompeting any other companies, and being an international player, so the main goal of a business has shifted from supporting oneself and making a winning in the process to making a winning as a first and utmost goal. Employing people and simply supporting them has become a side-line (or is forgotten altogether, where shareholders are the main force guiding the direction of a company).
4 Browse through a few current news articles about China today. Choose one article to analyze. What are some of the assumptions made by the article’s writer about
Discussion prompts 4
China? Do these assumptions show a biased or a more balanced view of China? What are the focuses of the articles you read? How do these articles show us the importance of China in world politics today?
Today’s news headlines about China focus to a large degree on two main subjects:
the large economy and its impact on the economies of other countries, and the fact that
China will be by far the biggest (and possibly only) important player on the international economic marketplace;
after the negative vote in Scotland, China is one of the countries that are relieved this separation will not happen. Of course, similar separatist movements are working in China and are regarded by the Chinese government as a threat to national unity and security.
Both subjects tell us something about China, but also about the journalists who wrote the articles: China is seen as a rising threat to other marketplaces, simply due to its sheer size and growing influence. While this may be true in a numbers kind of sense, the fact that China’s future growth is showcased as a fact tells us about the journalists’ view that this is considered a bad thing. Not surprising, since the news were produced outside of China. As for the independentist movements in China, I’m not sure if the Chinese news agencies are entirely objective in that respect. Just like international journalists, everyone has their own perception of who has the right to secede from a country and who does not. So in a way, everyone is biased in this respect.
5 The following link will take you to the English language website of the Communist
Party of China’s most popular newspaper, the “People’s Daily”: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn. Have a look around at some articles. How is China being portrayed? How do the themes of unity, isolation, and capitalism appear in the current events being described? Discuss.
China is portrayed as the centre of the world: most articles show the glory of Chinese products, politics, science, and other subjects. It took me a while to find even one article that dealt with the outside world, that simply tells about a situation developing. Political controversy in other countries, like Syria/Iraq or the Ukraine/Russia conflict seem to be absent completely.
It seems to me that the purely informational kind of news, that tells what happens, even if
China is not directly involved is either withheld or deemed unsuitable/uninteresting. Although there is something to be said for this policy, it still strikes me as odd that these international crises are not mentioned at all.
6 There were many factors that contributed to the conquest of China by the Manchus.
What do you think contributed most to the Manchu success?
It seems to me that their main helper was Wu Sangui and his actions to let the Manchus into
China rather than defending the realm from them. His decision to support the civilised outsiders against the marauding Chinese irregular troupes, pillaging Beijing, may have had a deep effect on his contemporaries, who started to see who were the real barbarians, the real
Discussion prompts 5 threat to Chinese society. Or course, he would be vilified, but there must have been a level of support as well, because I cannot imagine the Manchus having won the day without further local support. One would imagine that the local population of Beijing would have been hopeful enough to support anyone who would rid them of Li Zecheng and his men.
After their initial success, it was clearly their ability to merge two cultures in order to maintain a balance between the Manchu and the Chinese.
7 Even as they slaughtered the members of the Ming imperial bloodline, the Manchu honored the last Ming emperor with a proper burial. Why did they do this? What is the significance behind such ritual displays?
It is a display of respect for the previous incumbents of the throne. Maybe an early event that indicated the Manchu’s willingness to continue time-honored practices of ancestor worship and their attempts to integrate the Chinese ways into their own. This clearly serves to gain the support and acceptance of the elites, but also the population at large.
8 In September 1793, the Qianlong emperor’s edict to King George III, which proclaimed that the Qing lacked nothing within its borders, seemed to show no awareness of the empire’s growing links with international economic and cultural currents. Given what you know, could he have responded otherwise? If he had, what difference might it have made?
He had no real choice to answer otherwise: had he proclaimed that imports from Britain were welcome and a permanent representative be appointed, he would – by the same words – have admitted that China is less than the magnificent first among nations that he portrays it to. The
Chinese people would then have realized that things are not quite as glorious as they are made to understand, that there are things beyond the borders that might be of interest, and ultimately this could have fostered unrest.
However, by phrasing his response the way he did, we have two possible interpretations: either the Qianlong emperor was aware of this danger and acted in his own best interest by ignoring the options of outside wares to be brought into China, or – more likely – he really had no idea that his country had slowly slipped behind other nations who, by then, had passed
China in industrial development and military strength.
9 Why do you think the Qing’s efforts to limit the opium trade were ultimately unsuccessful? Who do you think profited most from drug trafficking within China?
The Qing had no real force to put up against the opium trade: first of all, many officials and soldiers were addicts and were likely to look the other way when it came to intervening with the trade. Traders made a good income on opium, and by delivering tea to Canton in exchange, so there was a huge incentive to continue this trade – if one trader was taken down, another one would simply take his place. Also, it must have been exceedingly difficult to ensure that products enter and leave the Canton zone, especially with the kind of money that could be made from this trade. It would appear that – although some Chinese traders gained some wealth from the trade – ultimately the British profited more. The additional positive side
Discussion prompts 6 for the British would have been the increasingly incapacitated workforce and administration that not only made the illegal trade simpler, but ultimately diminished the internal control in
China AND its ability to defend itself.
10 How did the British see Lin Zexu’s taking hostage of opium traders in 1839? How did
Chinese see the same event? What can account for the different perspectives between British and Chinese views of the beginning of the opium war?
The Chinese saw the taking of hostage as a means to an end: to make the British take the decision the Chinese perceived as the correct one, when these hostages would be released.
The British immediately resented this method as outside their rules of conduct. The Chinese saw no other way to cut off the opium supply than by getting rid of the trade altogether, while the British perceived the trade as being like any other trade: goods for money.
11 You are invited to read the following passage from Lin Zexu’s letter to Queen
Victoria, which speaks of foreigners in both respectful and contemptuous terms.
Does Lin’s letter treat the Queen as an equal to the emperor? Does he see Great
Britain as of equal standing with China? Finally, with whom do you sympathize most in the letter? Why?
Lin tries his best to make it appear that the Queen is an equal to the Emperor, but clearly he has another tune in mind when he starts mentioning the barbarian ships (=British traders).
This clearly indicates his own disdain for the traders, but might pretty much reflect the feeling of superiority of the Emperor. Lin seems to understand the power behind the British ship and might have an idea of the potential reactions, but he is an official representative of the Qing and has to behave as such.
I might assume that Lin was caught between his allegiance to the Emperor and his dawning understanding of the military situation, but the allegiance had to win, which is why I’m sympathizing most with Lin in his unenviable situation between all the chairs.
12 In the pre-modern part of ChinaX, we asked whether Buddhism could be a “Chinese” religion. What about Christianity? Do you think Christianity can be a “Chinese” religion? Or is Christianity strictly “western?”
I would’t say Christianity is strictly western, but if the resistance of the ruling classes against
Buddhism is any indication, they would not have looked kindly on Christianity either. The
Christian message of brotherly love and equality would most certainly NOT be well received in hierarchical China. And this assumption would still hold true today: Christian sects are still not highly regarded in China and the subject of regular news items about their treatment and suppression by the government of the PRC.
There is a dichotomy of conceptions: while the Christian faith can be adopted easily by any
Chinese man or woman, the government would clearly see it as a threat to its power base, especially once monasteries and potentially Christian schools were to appear. In these respects we can see very much the same situation as the arrival of Buddhism.
Discussion prompts 7
13 If you were a member of the educated Chinese gentry in the 19th century, how would you respond to foreign missionaries who claimed to bring with them “The
Teachings of the Lord of Heaven”? Would you be offended by their teachings? What would you find most or least compelling about their message?
For one thing, the traditional direct line to the Heavens would have been the Emperor himself, so at the very least, the gentry would have be offended by the message on grounds of presumptuous ideas.
14 As we have seen, cultural misunderstandings and religious messages created strong tensions between Chinese and foreign missionaries. Have a look at the following images created by Chinese as anti-Christian propaganda. How is Christianity portrayed here? What kind of tensions can you observe in these images?
Animal worship and sexual innuendo.
15 How do the Taipings justify their mission to establish an order in the world? What is their vision of the family in relation to the state? Finally, how do you think the
Chinese elite, educated in Confucian values, would react to their “Christian” vision of the state and family?
Their mission is clearly heavenly, since it has been proclaimed by the Heavenly Father himself, who has promised to support the movement whenever it runs into problems, supported the
Heavenly King’s elder brother, who would lead the Father’s army against the devils.
Family, in the Taiping understanding, is subordinate to the state, while in Confucian terms, families exactly support the state. This last difference would be one powerful reason for the
Chinese elite not to be all that thrilled about the Taiping ideals. The Taiping understanding of family sounds a little like similar notions of “family” introduced by Indian sects like, e.g;, the
Baghwan movement in the 1980s, where – as another parallel – the internal elite was treated succinctly different in many respects, including sexual aspects, just like the Taiping leaders.
16 Given what you have seen of the end of China in the late 19th century, which of the three strategies--self-strengthening, resistance, or comprehensive reform--do you think would prove most successful for China’s future?
At first sight, “comprehensive reform” would likely be the path to take – and which has been taken. However, looking at the modern version of the People’s Republic as an outsider, it appears in some ways very similar to the political structure of Imperial China, with one highest leader (elected, but from a limited pool of qualified candidates, by their peers), a political elite
(=officials), an industrial/financial/corporate elite (replacing the literati/gentry), and a large potential of workers supporter the upper echelons of society. Admittedly, this very much resembles the Western model of democracy, but there are obvious parallels to the Imperial system, that appears to have reestablished itself after a series of upheavals, using the available layers of society and shaping them into a similar system.
Discussion prompts 8
So my answer to the original question is not “comprehensive reform” but rather “selfstrengthening” because this political structure has been recreated from the ruins of outside influence. And while taking on board certain elements from the outside influence, the resulting structure is basically built on the example of Imperial China, with a twist here or there, because of a renewed faith in the structures that have worked for such a long time before.
Again, this is an outsider’s view of China, based on the information available (selective, limited and potentially skewed) and with the Western background (potentially misunderstanding certain elements, and interpreting them from a different point of view). I certainly do not mean to offend anyone with my interpretation.
17 What are his arguments for studying abroad? What does his letter say about Chinese learning versus Western learning?
He recognizes the need to study foreign (Western) technology and knowledge in order to improve the Chinese production in technical terms. The fact that students abroad will also receive philosophical teachings, shows a dichotomy between the understanding of the technology (Western) and the understanding on how and when to apply it (Eastern). In a way, both those elements are taken care in Western teaching as a whole and both elements serve the common goal: developing, understanding and applying technology, where in Eastern teaching, a clear distinction of the two elements is being made.
18 What kind of reform is Kang advocating? How does it compare to other models of reform in the 19th century?
He is proposing a radical change, no half-measures and especially no measures that only lead to more instabilities within the government and the country itself. He proposes to learn from all nations, especially the fact that no change at all is a surefire recipe for disaster. However, he also points out the fact that – although we may learn from other countries – some of these lessons may apply to China better than others: he points to Russia and Japan as good examples, while England or Germany – being successful in their own right – are dismissed as bad examples for statehood because they are too different from China.
19 How do you describe the differences in approach between these readings? Which strategies represented here are most effective? Finally, based on the kinds of reforms being introduced in these readings, do you think the dissolution of the civil service examination was inevitable?
Sending students abroad to absorb the theoretical knowledge, while supporting their Eastern traditional philosophies might sound like a good idea at first, but completely depends on the way the young students behave and develop while outside of China. They may undergo changes that are irreversible and incompatible with the Chinese way, and ultimately create a disruptive element in society.
Making a concerted decision to apply changes throughout the state, based on the guidance and understanding of the elite, as applied in Russia or Japan, would have been another choice.
Discussion prompts 9
However, this might not only undermine the government – if the population does not agree with these choices, what would it do? – but also could be seen as unproductive by officials and ultimately lead to even more internal rivalry and make the reforms insubstantial and counterproductive.
The third approach, advocating large-scale change without too much consideration of the traditions, was the most radical one: if things disappear, so be it. This particular idea also embraced the need to adapt to the times, not just once, but in the form of continuous adaptation to the developing situations. This clearly would throw Confucianism out of the window, something that neither the population, nor the dynasty could wish for. Especially in view of the dynasty’s heavy reliance on traditions, and their difficult situation at the time, this would have been the end of all hope for Imperial China.
Obviously, the last option would be the most successful one for the people, while overthrowing the status quo and leading to large scale upheaval and change. Would China be able to survive at all? Or would it be gobbled up by the Western nations sitting at its edges?
In any case, the traditional examination system appears to have been useless in either situation. Abolishing it because of the new development? I’m not so sure if it could not have survived as it had been pretty useless in earlier periods already, and clearly discussions about the content of the teachings have been numerous over time. Maybe their time had just come to be dismissed as outdated. Sounds to me like just one more casualty of modernization.
20 We have seen a number of interactions between China and the Western powers in late Qing history. How would you characterize power relations between China and the West toward the end of the 19th century? Are these relations equal or unequal?
Explain. Please give specific examples.
In terms of self-interpretation, both the Qing AND the British have clearly been of the opinion that they were superior to the other party. This impression was, however, not reflected in the economic and military might where the Qing tried to catch up, but were too far behind to really get anywhere. Also, the Qing efforts where at cross-purposes because of internal inconsistencies and the general loss of influence exerted by the government.
