HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
CONFIRMED MINUTES
OCTOBER 21-24, 2013
PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA, USA
These minutes are not final until confirmed by the Task Group in writing or by vote at a
subsequent meeting. Information herein does not constitute a communication or recommendation
from the Task Group and shall not be considered as such by any agency.
Monday, October 21 to Thursday, October 24, 2013
1.0
OPENING COMMENTS
1.1
Call to Order / Quorum Check
The Heat Treat Task Group (HTTG) was called to order at 8:02 a.m., 21-Oct-2013.
Tom Norris HTTG chair verified that only SUBSCRIBER MEMBERS were in attendance during
the closed portion of the meeting.
A quorum was established with the following representatives in attendance:
Subscriber Members/Participants Present (* Indicates Voting Member)
NAME
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Shamim
Carolyn
Tawny
Ricardo
Bruce
Frank
Craig
Cedric
Michael
Michael
Martin
Mark
Sergio
Melissa
Robert
Laurent
Lauren
Peter
Gerald W.
Linnie
Jeff
Serge
Marc-André
William
Dawn
Doug
John
Alessandro
Tom
Luis Gustavo
Eddy
COMPANY NAME
Abbas
Backus
Blumenshine
Bove
Brownfield
Brungs
Clasper
Colas
Corsino
Dame
Day
Emerson
Esposito
Facas
Faticanti
Geerts
Gibbens
Hammarbo
Harvey
Hook
Koss
Labbe
Lefebvre
Macias
Mastin
Matson
Merritt
Miglio
Norris
Pacheco
Pham
The Boeing Company
The Boeing Company
Cessna Aircraft Company
Embraer
Lockheed Martin Corporation
MTU Aero Engines GmbH
Spirit AeroSystems
SAFRAN Group
Hamilton Sundstrand (UTAS)
Parker Hannifin
Honeywell Aerospace
Rolls-Royce
Alenia Aermacchi S.p.A.
Pratt & Whitney
Textron Systems
Sonaca
Lockheed Martin Corporation
GKN Aerospace Sweden AB
Triumph Group Inc.
Cessna Aircraft Company
The Boeing Company
Héroux-Devtek Inc.
Héroux-Devtek Inc.
Goodrich (UTAS)
Goodrich (UTAS)
The Boeing Company
Sikorsky Aircraft
AgustaWestland
Goodrich (UTAS)
Embraer
Northrop Grumman Corporation
Secretary
Chairperson
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
K.T.
Sunder
Alexandre
Thomas
Simon
Marc-André
Jeffrey
Cyril
Gary
Doug
Grzegorz
Quador
Rajan
Richez
Ruglic
Scott
Taillandier
Thyssen
Vernault
Wallace
Webb
Wryk
The Boeing Company
Raytheon Company
Airbus
Bell Helicopter
BAE Systems
Eurocopter
GE Aviation
SAFRAN Group
Parker Aerospace Group
Honeywell Aerospace
Rolls-Royce
Vice Chairperson
Other Members/Participants Present (* Indicates Voting Member)
NAME
*
*
*
*
*
*
Slimani
Roy
Zubair
Daniel
Nigel
Amy
Rick
Griff
Noel
Mike
Mike
Allan
Mark
Christopher
Dennis
Mark
Donald
Wolfgang
Bhaskar
Arturo
George
Damon
Joshua
Robert
Richard
Michelle
Nathan
Michael
Gary
Edward
William
Nick
Bob
Tj
Dennis
Jose
Chad
Beverly
COMPANY NAME
Adil
Adkins
Alam
Antos
Ashby
Azzano
Bowser
Braddock
Brady
Brandt
Brausch
Breller
Brown
Bryant
Burkes
Burval
Camus
Casta
Chatrath
Chavez
Conrad II
Cook
Crockett
Cvetichan
Daniel
Davis-Lawson
Durham
Eddy
Eisenman
Engelhard
Erzen
Fajerson
Ferry
Fitzmaurice
Fried
Fuentes
Funderburk
Furl
METATHERM
Braddock Metallurgical
Exactatherm Ltd.
Canton Drop Forge
GKN Aerospace
Arrow Gear Company
Universal Stainless.com
Braddock Metallurgical
Paulo Products
Alcoa, Inc.
CCPI North America
PCC Structurals
Kaman Aerospace Corp. - Jacksonville
Carpenter Technology
Winston Heat Treating Inc.
Universal Stainless
Talley Metals
Shellcast Foundries Inc.
Universal Stainless
TIGHITCO LATINOAMERICA
GeoCorp, Inc.
Ellwood Texas Forge Houston
Ellison Group
American Brazing Corp.
Jorgensen Forge Corporation
Byron Products
Ipsen Inc.
Wyman-Gordon Company
Aero Gear Inc.
Solar Atmospheres Inc.
PAKO Inc.
Denison Industries
FPM HEAT TREATING
TSI Titanium
Carpenter Technology
VAC Aero
MMS Thermal Processing
ATI Allegheny Ludlum
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
Michael
George
Tom
Lisa
Lisa
Darron
Bill
Steve
Ninan
Ninive
Steve
Kurt
Jacob
Adeel
David
Alexander
John
James
Jeremy
Bob
James
Richard
Li
Johanna
Tina
Russel
David
Telly
Jimmy
Tom
Peter
Iqbal Shahid
Oveis
Ken
Mark
Jim
John
Phil
Rozalia
Tim
Steven
Randolph
Michael
Brett
Barry
Tim
Elena
Eddie
Bill
Glen
Sally
Carol
Jason
Kevin
Kimberly
Gaspers
Gieger
Glosser
Golden
Goodwin
Harris
Heighton
Hutchinson
Idiculla
Jimenez
Johnson
Jungheim
Kacsik
Karim
Kindel
Klyuch
Kunkle
LaFollette
Leetz
Lehnen
Leonard
Lewis
Li
Lisa
Luque
Lynch
Mailes
Mitsis
Morris
Morrison
Motyl
Muhammad
Nayeri
Nelson
Nigels
Oakes
Ochenas
Pacey
Papp
Paradis
Powell
Pullins
Quann
Queipo
Rafan
Reeser
Ritoli
Rivera
Rogers
Rudd
Santangero
Schmidt
Schulze
Seidel
Sepsey
FPM HEAT TREATING
Braddock Metallurgical
Astro Aluminum Treating
Metallurgical Processing, Inc.
Ellwood Texas Forge Houston
Exotic Metals Forming Company
ATP
Braddock Metallurgical
Paulo products Company
LMI Aerospace
Triumph Group - Park City
Modern Drop Forge Co.
Conrad Kacsik Industries
Doctor Furnace, Inc.
Unison Industries
Blades Technology Ltd.
Howmet Castings and Services, Inc. Dover Casting (AHDC)
GeoCorp, Inc.
MMS Thermal Processing
Bodycote Thermal Processing
Carpenter Technology Corporation
PCC Structurals Carson City
Advanced Nitriding Solutions
Continental Heat Treating/Quality Heat Treating
Aurora Flight Sciences of West Virginia, Inc.
Universal Stainless
Paulo
Wyman-Gordon Company
Furnace Parts LLC
Metal Treating Institute
Whitcraft LLC
BOHLER UDDEHOLM THERMO-TECH
Lisi Aerospace
Continental Heat Treating
Parker Hannifin
Super Systems Inc.
GeoCorp, Inc.
Canton Drop Forge
Air Liquide US LP
Metallurgical Processing Inc.
Akron Steel Treating Company
CCPI Inc.
Pacific Metallurgical Inc.
BE Areospace
Universal Stainless - Dunkirk
Universal Stainless & Alloy Products
Metallurgical Processing, Inc.
Metallurgical Processing, Inc.
Alcoa
Braddock Metallurgical
REPAC
ATI Ladish Forging
Conrad Kacsik Industries
Universal Stainless
LORD Corporation
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
*
*
*
Dave
Christopher
Jeffrey
John
Naoki
George
Steve
Allison
Gregg
Tom
Alfredo
Fernando
Paul
Wilfried
Keith
Bryon
Aaron
Joe
Brian
Tom
Shonts
Simmons
Sipf
Smith
Sogabe
Stoffa
Sykes
Tackett
Temple
Valenti
Valenzuela
Valle
Vegiard
Weber
Whiddon
White
White
White
Yazumbek
Zimmerman
Metal Finishing Company Inc.
Carpenter Technology
Haynes International
SANDVIK SPECIAL METALS, LLC
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, LTD.
Pressure Technology Inc.
Braddock Metallurgical
Specialty Steel Treating, Inc.
Winston Heat Treating Inc.
Specialty Steel Treating
LMI Aerospace
LMI Aerospace
CCPI
PFW Aerospace GmbH
Canton Drop Forge
Crane Aerospace & Electronics
Modern Industries, Inc.
Vac-Met
Modern Drop Forge Co.
ATP
PRI Staff Present
Jerry
Marcel
Brittany
Stan
Robert
Aston
Cuperman
McSorley
Revers
Hoeth
1.2
Introductions
1.3
Code of Ethics/Antitrust and Meeting Conduct: - Video from PRI.
2.0
APPROVAL OF PREVIOUS MEETING MINUTES- OPEN
The minutes from June 2013 were reviewed by the HTTG and will be submitted for vote during
the open meeting.
3.0
OCTOBER AGENDA
The HTTG reviewed the agenda for the week to highlight agenda items.
4.0
TASK GROUP TUTORIAL – CLOSED
Marcel Cuperman presented the HTTG Tutorial.
A microphone is available for anyone who would like to use it. Speak clearly, do not dismiss
people’s opinions, emotional and off topics should be avoided.
4.1
P-frm-10 - Subscriber Matrix
The HTTG reviewed the current Subscriber Matrix form P-frm-10.
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
5.0
STAFF ENGINEER DELEGATION – CLOSED
The HTTG reviewed the t-frm-07 for delegated Staff Engineers.
Motion made by Gerald Harvey and seconded by Jeff Thyssen to accept the comments made for
Marcel Cuperman by Subscribers during the last quarter without further discussion or action.
Motion made by Gerald Harvey and seconded by Jeff Thyssen to continue to delegate Marcel
Cuperman. Motion passed with none opposed.
Motion made by Cyril Vernault and seconded by Bob Faticanti to accept the comments made for
Jerry Aston by Subscribers during the last quarter without further discussion or action. Motion
made by Cyril Vernault and seconded by Bob Faticanti to continue to delegate Jerry Aston.
Motion passed with none opposed.
Motion made by Jeff Thyssen and seconded by Gerald Harvey to accept the comments made for
Rob Hoeth by Subscribers during the last quarter without further discussion or action. Motion
made by Jeff Thyssen and seconded by Gerald Harvey to continue to delegate Rob Hoeth.
Motion passed with none opposed.
Motion made by Jeff Thyssen and seconded by Cyril Vernault to accept the comments made for
Anne Allen by Subscribers during the last quarter without further discussion or action. Motion
made by Jeff Thyssen and seconded by Cyril Vernault to continue to delegate Anne Allen. Motion
passed with none opposed.
5.1
New Delegation: Reviewed t-frm-99 for Stan Revers. After reviewing the comments motion was
made by Jeff Thyssen and seconded by Mark Emerson to delegate Stan Revers. The motion
passed with none opposed.
6.0
LAPSED ACCREDITATIONS – CLOSED
There are 8 potential lapsed accreditations. Three of these have been recommended for 30 day
extensions by the Staff Engineers. During the meeting the Staff Engineers recommended one
additional supplier for 90 day extension to accommodate some vandalism in its facility. The HTTG
decided to table the 90 day extension discussion until the closed meeting on Thursday, October
24.
Motion made by Doug Matson and seconded by Cyril Vernault to accept the Staff Engineers’
recommendation for the three 30 day extensions. The motion passed with none opposed.
7.0
APPEAL ANALYSIS & POSSIBLE APPEALS – CLOSED
To date in 2013 there have been 15 appeals. Eight of the appeals were accepted, seven were
denied, and zero withdrawn. There was an appeal presented (2013-44) to the HTTG during the
meeting on Monday, October 21, 2013. After the presentation and discussion the HTTG denied
the appeal.
Motion was made by Jeff Thyssen and seconded by Gerald Harvey to deny Appeal 2013-44.
Motion passed, 15 (deny) to 0 (accept).
8.0
AUDITOR CONFERENCE DEBRIEF – CLOSED
Tom Norris, the HTTG Chairman, gave a summary of the items covered during the Auditor
Conference. The Auditor Conference was conducted Saturday, October 19 and Sunday, October
20. During the conference Jeff Thyssen presented a training module on Torch and Induction
Brazing and Doug Matson presented a training module on “Process Control System” section 7 of
the core Heat Treat Checklist. Tom Norris and Bob Faticanti presented some NCR data and the
“Top 10 NCR” data. Marcel Cuperman presented a module on “Best Audit” practice and Doug
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
Schuler presented a module on Effective Time Management. Following the formal presentations
there was a general question and answer session. Auditors expressed concerns on several
issues that affect time management during the audit that could also have an effect on Auditor
Consistency.

The auditors expressed concern regarding section one of the checklist that requires
suppliers submit certain data items 30 days prior to the audit. Not all suppliers are in
compliance with the data submittals. The auditors requested that the HTTG be more
rigorous in enforcing this requirement. They suggested that this requirement be phrased
as a question with a yes or no answer with the ability to write an NCR for noncompliance.

The auditors expressed similar concern about the performance of the required supplier
Nadcap self-audit prior to starting the official audit. The auditors also suggested that the
ability to write NCRs for non-compliance would help with more consistent audits.

The auditors suggested moving section 3.6 of AC7102 to the job audit section. Since the
section deals with supplier travelers which are covered in the job audits the suggestion
was to move section 3.6 to the job audit as one question with all the elements currently in
section 3.6.

Section 1 does not mention anything about data format for the items to be provided 30
days to the start of the audit. The auditors requested that the HTTG require that the data
be submitted electronically so the auditors would have ready access to the data on their
computers rather than needing to carry paper copies of procedures and other data.

The discussion of the electronic data submittal lead into a discussion of a File Transfer
Protocol site that could be used for data submittals that are to large for e-mail
transmission. (Later discussion revealed that the FTP site does exist, has not been used
since it was created, and it is not private so supplier’s auditors and other authorized users
are not guaranteed any kind of proprietary data protection.)

Auditors noted that suppliers with Export Controlled (EC) or ITAR work require extra time
to manually (or cut and paste) enter the verbiage required in eAuditNet stating the
EC/ITAR data cannot be entered. The auditors suggested a drop down box or checkbox
for EC/ITAR which would reduce the time to complete checklist questions.

Auditors sometimes complete paper copies of job audits while out on the shop floor. This
takes time as the auditor is currently required to then enter the job audit data manually
into eAuditNet. The auditors requested if it would be possible to scan the pen and ink job
audit checklists and attached the scanned copies instead of manually entering all the
data.

The auditors expressed concern about section 7 of the checklist “Process Control
System” They are concerned about the vagueness of the checklist questions and the
various interpretations applied. The auditors also expressed that the main concern seems
to be with periodic testing and asked if the questions could be renamed “periodic testing”
instead of “process control system”

The auditors asked for guidance about dummy loads if the supplier does not have live
jobs to perform during the course of the audit. Will the HTTG accept dummy loads, and if
so what are some guidelines of what would be acceptable.

The auditors referenced the Welding HTTG checklists and asked if Heat Treat could do
something similar. List the intent of the question and list some examples of acceptable
objective evidence.
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
9.0
AUDITOR CONSISTENCY – CLOSED
Jerry Aston presented the NMC Auditor Consistency data, which consisted of the average NCR’s
per audit day. And was presented for reaccreditation audits and initial audits as well as broken
out be individual checklists.
9.1
+/-4 NCRs
Staff Engineers provided data on audits where there had been +/- 4 NCR swing between audits.
This information is provided to allow Auditors to be highlighted, allowing the HTTG to follow up
with these Auditors. The HTTG decided to continue to monitor +/- 4 NCR change since it provides
more data. The data presented included 36 audits that had swing of +/- 4 NCR's from one audit to
the next at the same company. 23 audits had +4 or more NCRs since the previous audit and 14
had -4 or less NCRs than the previous audit. No action was taken. Provided during the discussion
for information only: the average number of NCR's written by all auditors for all audits to date in
2013 is approximately 4.5 NCR’s.
9.2
Auditor Variation Data
Presentation was given by Doug Matson. The presentation included the average number of
NCRs per audit for all auditors since 2008. Also included is the average number of NCR’s as well
as the minimum and maximum number of NCRs for each individual auditor from 2008 through
September 2013. The average number of NCRs has dropped from approximately 7 to
approximately 4.5.
9.3
The Most/Least 10 NCRs
There was no discussion on this topic during the October meeting. The topic was discussed
during the Supplier Workshop.
10.0
AUDIT OBSERVERS – CLOSED
The number of Heat Treat observation was up since the June 2013 meeting. There were 7 audit
observations conducted since the February 2013 meeting. Of the seven one was marked as did
not meet expectations.
The Staff Engineers presented a spreadsheet that documents who observed, who was observed,
and the dates of the observation. This spreadsheet will be maintained by the Staff Engineers.
Audit observation reports will be reviewed each subsequent meeting.
11.0
NOP-012 – CLOSED
Jerry Aston provided an overview of the current status of the proposed NOP-012. Since there
appears to be a significant amount of discussion for this topic and several actions need to be
completed by the HTTG, this discussion was table until Thursday during the closed meeting.
12.0
SUBSCRIBER VOTING MEMBER PARTICIPATION – CLOSED
The Staff Engineers presented to the HTTG a chart showing Subscriber Voting Member (UVM)
meeting attendance from October 2011 to June 2013 and HTTG ballots August 2012 to August
2013. There was only one Subscriber that missed 3 consecutive meetings, and after discussion
concluded that no further action is required. Six new Subscriber and Alternate Voting Members
were accepted.
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
New Voting Members:







13.0
Craig Clasper of Spirit AeroSystems was voted in as a UVM
Thomas Ruglic of Bell Helicopter Textron Systems was voted in as a UVM
Mariusz Stanszyck of Lockheed Martin was voted in as a ALT/UVM
Mellisa Facas of Pratt and Whitney was voted in as a UVM
Doug Webb of Honeywell was voted in as an ALT/UVM.
Carol Backus of Boeing was voted in as an ALT/UVM
Alessandro Miglio of AgustaWestland was voted in as ALT/UVM
SUBSCRIBER’S SCOPE IN AC7102/S – CLOSED
SAFRAN Group Suppliers do not always identify SAFRAN as a Subscriber on the Audit Scope.
As a result the /S questions for SAFRAN are missed during the audit. SAFRAN comments on the
audit ballot to have the questions answered by the suppliers. SAFRAN asked the HTTG, what do
other Subscribers do when they are not identified on the audit scope. There were a few
responses and some discussion. The HTTG tabled the discussion to the open supplier meeting to
get additional feedback from suppliers as well as Subscribers.
14.0
FAILURE ANALYSIS & VCA DATA
The Staff Engineers presented to the HTTG the number of Verification of Corrective Action (VCA)
audits being carried out. In the first quarter of 2013 there were 5 VCA's, two of which failed and in
the second quarter there were 4 VCA none of which failed. The HTTG failure rate is currently at
4.6%. The HTTG reviewed failure rate data from other commodities compared with Heat Treat.
The other commodities have a much lower failure rate (0.5%) compared to Heat Treat. Based on
the review of failed audits, auditor consistency data such as the +/-4 NCR's the top 10 questions
and the 10 Least/Most data the HTTG believes the Heat Treat audits are being conducted
appropriately and no action based on failure rate should be taken. The HTTG asked to have at
the next meeting the number of VCA's requested that had a simple majority vote but did not reach
the 2/3 majority currently required.
ACTION ITEM: PRI Staff to provide VCA's requested that did not reach the 2/3 majority ballot
requirement (Due Date: 24-Feb-2014)
15.0
QUENCH EFFECTIVENESS – A COMMON APPROACH – CLOSED
There was a question concerning the question in the AC7102 checklist. The question was
removed from AC7102 and the question from the HTTG member was withdrawn and there was
no further discussion.
16.0
BRAZING EVALUATION – CLOSED
On the new brazing checklist, there is only one checklist question referring to the evaluation or
assessment of "brazing sources" or evaluation of brazed joints. The HTTG formed a sub-team to
investigate other Task Group checklists (such as welding) for appropriate checklist questions.
And if no appropriate checklist questions currently exist within Nadcap present a proposal to the
HTTG at the February meeting.
Sub-Team Members: Mark Emerson, Jeff Thyssen, Greg Wryk, Martin Day, Sunder Rajan,
Melissa Facas, Tom Norris, Cyril Vernault, Ed Engelhard, David Mailes, Slimani Adil and Marcel
Cuperman.
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
ACTION ITEM: Sub-Team to provide report on investigation of other Task Group checklists for
appropriate checklist questions to assess “brazing sources” or evaluation of brazed jobs and
present their recommendation at the February 2014 meeting (Due Date: 24-Feb-2014).
17.0
NEW PROCESSES – CLOSED
Localized Heat Treat - During the June 2013 meeting the HTTG requested the Staff Engineers
poll the HTTG to see if there was interest in new processes focusing on Localized Heat Treat and
Sintering. Marcel reported back the only SAFRAN Group and GE Aviation expressed interest in
Localized Heat Treating, and only Raytheon Company expressed interest in Sintering. After some
discussion the HTTG created a sub-team to investigate Localized Heat Treating, and bring a
proposal to the February 2014 meeting. The Sub-Team was formed with the following members:
Sub-Team Members: Cyril Vernault, Jeff Thyssen, Mark Emerson, Sunder Rajan, Peter
Hammarbo, and Marcel Cuperman.
ACTION ITEM: Sub-Team to provide report on investigation on the need to audit Localized Heat
Treating and present their recommendation at the February 2014 meeting (Due Date: 24-Feb-2014).
18.0
HT-STSTG MEETING – CLOSED
See HT-STSTG minutes.
Only Suppliers and Staff Engineer’s allowed to participate.
Subscribers are welcome.
19.0
OPENING COMMENTS – OPEN
Opening comments from Tom Norris (Chair): Introductions of the HTTG Subscriber and Supplier
Member meeting attendees.
The open meeting began with video from PRI about the Nadcap Code of Ethics, Code of
Conduct, Conflict of Interest Anti-Trust Policy and ITAR/Export control.
20.0
JUNE 2013 MEETING MINUTES – OPEN
Gerald Harvey made a motion to accept the minutes as written, the motion was seconded by Jeff
Thyssen. There were none opposed.
The minutes from June 2013 were approved as written.
21.0
AMS 2759/2 – START OF SOAK – OPEN
There was a brief discussion regarding the start of soak for Type A and Type C. AMS 2759/2 is
currently in ballot and there is new language proposed in the revision for start of soak. The HTTG
decision was to issue an Auditor Advisory concerning the start of soak as defined in the current
version of AMS2759/2 and the proposed language of AMS2759/2 currently in ballot.
ACTION ITEM: Doug Matson will write an Auditor Advisory stating the HTTG will accept the
current version or the proposed version of AMS2759/2 for start of soak. The advisory should be
issued by 05-Nov-2013 (Due Date: 05-Nov-2013).
22.0
RAIL REVIEW – OPEN
The Rolling Action Item List (RAIL) was reviewed.
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
For specific details, please see the current (HTTG) Rolling Action Item List posted at
www.eAuditNet.com, under Public Documents/Heat Treating.
Due to the size of the RAIL, the oldest actions which have been closed were removed and a new
number system was put in place to make it easier to read and keep up with the Action Items.
23.0
CLOSED MEETING REPORT OUT – OPEN
Tom Norris gave debrief on the discussions held during the closed meeting.
Discussed proposed NOP-012: the purpose is to establish a standard approach for HTTGs to
assess auditor consistency. NOP-012 issue date November 2013.
24.0
AC7102/3 REV C – NEW BALLOT COMMENTS – OPEN
The comments were reviewed and dispositioned by the HTTG.
25.0
AC7102/4 REV C – NEW BALLOT COMMENTS – OPEN
The comments were reviewed and dispositioned by the HTTG.
26.0
HT-STSTG REPORT OUT – OPEN
Johanna Lisa gave the HT-STSTG meeting debriefs.
See HT-STSTG minutes for meeting details.
27.0
AC7102 REV H – OPEN
Proposal-There was significant discussion regarding section one of the checklist. The HTTG is
considering adding yes/no check boxes to section 1 for data submittals and for the supplier preaudit. The Auditors will then have the ability to write NCR's against these two items. During this
discussion the topic of the File Transfer Protocol site was brought up. This would be a method for
suppliers to submit documents that are too large to send via e-mail. After some discussion it was
discovered that the FTP site provides no protection of privacy for any material submitted here by
suppliers.
ACTION ITEM: HTTG to check with Nadcap Informatics Department to see if there is a way to
provide privacy protection for supplier submitted documents (Due Date: 24-Feb-2014).
There was also significant discussion about sampling plans. The proposal is that the sample size
must be included in the planning and flowed down onto travelers so that operators would not
have to go a check a sampling plan procedure. This appears to be a significant burden on many
suppliers. After discussion and vote 14 Subscribers and 10 suppliers with only 1 Subscriber
opposed to remove this requirement from the checklist.
Section 10 of AC7102 was removed from the checklist, and will be presented later as AC7102/8.
There was a proposal to move section 3.6.1 to the job audits; the HTTG approved this
suggestion.
AC7102 will be posted for ballot following the close of the meeting.
28.0
AC7102/8 REV N/A – PROPOSAL – OPEN
Discussion of Section 1. The scope as listed (AND/OR TO SUPPLIERS ENGAGED IN
PYROMETRY TESTINGS) appears that this will or could be used for accreditation of Pyrometry
Providers. The question was asked if that was the intent of the HTTG. The intent of the HTTG
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
was to make this checklist available to other Task Groups. Not necessarily to suppliers of
Pyrometry services. The new proposed language in section 1 for Scope was removed from the
checklist.
There was also significant discussion of the note in section 2.8.1 (Note: The supplier shall
demonstrate conformance to customer requirements in the temperature units specified by the
customer.) Does this mean that the reports must be in the temperature units specified by the
customer or is a mathematical conversion acceptable? The consensus of the group was this
should be worked out between the supplier and the customer. This wording was also removed
from the checklist as proposed. AC7102/8 will be posted for ballot following the close of this
meeting.
29.0
HTTG PYROMETRY GUIDE UPDATE – OPEN
The Pyrometry guide was revised in 24 June-13. It is now 52 pages.
30.0
HTTG AUDIT HANDBOOK UPDATE – OPEN
The Audit handbook has been formatted for easier understanding. The HTTG added appendix D
which will include Auditor Advisories. The HTTG will put a note in the Audit Handbook not to
submit the Audit Feedback too early as it will add an additional cycle to the audit response.
ACTION ITEM: The HTTG will check with Nadcap Informatics Department to see if the audit cycle
issue with submitting the supplier feedback can be fixed. The audit feedback should not cost the
supplier a cycle for the audit (Due Date: 24-Feb-2014).
The HTTG agreed to review auditor advisories and decide if they should be included in the audit
handbook.
31.0
NMC METRICS – OPEN
NMC metric charts for 2013 were presented to the HTTG. HTTG is rated green in all NMC
Metrics for 2013.
32.0
AUDITOR ADVISORIES – OPEN
Auditor Advisories issued since the June 2013 Nadcap meeting were reviewed. The HTTG was
reminded that the advisories are posted on eAuditNet for review. These are available on
eAuditNet under Resources/Documents/Public Documents/Heat Treat/Auditor Advisories.
Only 5 Advisories were written since June 2013. HT 13-004, 13-005, 13-006, 13-007, and 13-008
were reviewed in the meeting.
33.0
AUDITOR ADVISORIES TO BE ADDED TO THE HTTG AUDIT HANDBOOK
These advisories will be added to appendix D of the Audit Handbook: HT13-004, HT13-005,
HT13-006, HT13-007, and HT13-008
34.0
NEW POSSIBLE PROCESSES – OPEN
Localized Heat Treating was discussed as a possible new process. The HTTG created a SubTeam to address Localized Heat Treating. (See Item 17)
Sintering was discussed as a possible new process for the HTTG. The HTTG created a SubTeam to have a proposal for the February 2014 meeting.
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
The Sub-Team consists of: Sunder Rajan, Alex Richez, Tom Norris, Cyril Vernault, Cedric Colas,
Nathan Durham and Marcel Cuperman.
ACTION ITEM: Sub-Team to provide report on investigation on the need to audit Sintering and
present their recommendation at the February 2014 meeting (Due Date: 24-Feb-2014).
35.0
OPENING COMMENTS - OPEN
35.1
Call to Order/Quorum Check
36.0
SSC REPORT OUT- OPEN
The October 2013 SSC report out was presented by Roy Adkins.
The Supplier Support Committee is to help suppliers navigate the Nadcap process, to find help if
suppliers feel the need to escalate issues beyond the Staff Engineer. Suppliers have access to
mentors if they wish to find help without asking in Task Group meetings or raising red flags, or
just need help understanding Nadcap interpretation of requirements. SSC help is available for all
commodities. SSC meetings are always held on Tuesdays during the Nadcap meetings from 5:00
to 7:00pm.
37.0
AMEC REPORT OUT – OPEN
Report summary presented by Doug Matson. The main activity is a complete revision to AMS
2759 and the 13 slash sheets. The main specification has been balloted, but the comments to the
slash sheets will result in additional changes to the main document. The goal is to have the
complete AMS 2759 revision completed by the spring of 2014.
38.0
PLANNING AND OPS DEBREIF – OPEN
Tom Norris gave a brief summary of items discussed at the Planning & Ops meeting. There was
a significant discussion on NOP-012.
39.0
FAILURE ANANLYSIS & VCA DATA – OPEN
The Staff Engineers presented to the HTTG audit analysis by sector, failed audits 1-Jan-11 to 30Sept-13, failed audits compared to other Task Groups, and VCA audits from 2010 to 30
September 2013. The presentations were prefaced by charts showing the changes in NOP-011
for failure criteria and the change that requires 2/3 majority vote to conduct a VCA.
40.0
AUDITOR CONFERENCE DEBREIF – OPEN
The HTTG was given a brief summary of the items covered during the Auditor Conference. This
was essentially the same brief given to the HTTG during the closed meeting on Monday. (See
agenda item 8), only the presentation in the open meeting did not include any auditors' names or
supplier names. See item 8 for details of the supplier conference discussion items.
41.0
SUPPLIER VOTING MEMBER PARTCIPATION – OPEN
Supplier balloting activity and meeting attendance data was presented to the HTTG. The data
showed that the requirements of NTGOP-001 section 5.2.5 were being met by all the Supplier
Voting Members (SVM) except for one. Vincent Musa has missed 4 consecutive meetings and
was removed as a Supplier Voting Member. Paragraph 5.2.2.1 has been added to NTGOP-001
which requires that Voting Member status to be reviewed at every HTTG meeting. There are 11
Supplier Voting Members. During the meeting 5 new Supplier Voting Members were approved.
(Stu Sherman will remain as an ALT/SVM).
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
•
•
•
•
•
Richard Lewis of PPC Structural
Dave Shonts of Metal Finishing Company
Tom Valenti of Specialty Steel Treating
Tom Paradis of Metal Finishing
Kevin Siedel of Universal Stainless.
Participation is high for Heat Treat Suppliers. The level of participation is appreciated by the
HTTG.
42.0
SAT & ALTERNATE SAT– OPEN
Cyril Vernault gave a presentation on SAT and the Alternate SAT methods to the group
43.0
TOP 10 NCRS – OPEN
The Top 10 NCRs were discussed during the meeting. Two meetings ago the HTTG took 5 of the
top 10 NCRs and the HTSTSTG took the other 5 top 10 NCRs and put together a paper that
listed the checklist question, the intent of the checklist question and some examples of
acceptable objective evidence of compliance. Discussion revealed that nothing was ever done
with the document. The HT STSTG offered to do the same exercise with the 4 new questions that
are now on the top ten NCR list if the HTTG would review the other 6 for relevance with revision
E of AMS 2750. The HTTG tabled this discussion to the closed meeting on Thursday before
taking any actions.
44.0
PROCESS CONTROL SYSTEM – OPEN
Doug Matson made a presentation on process control system and proposed changes to section 7
of the checklists which covers Process Control System. There was discussion about the section
7.1 that states "process control system as defined in the audit handbook". This seems to make
the handbook a requirement instead of just guidance. The wording was changed to "see Heat
Treating Audit Handbook" based on consensus of the group. AC7102 will be posted for ballot at
the close of this meeting.
45.0
QUESTION & ANSWER SESSION – OPEN
The question was asked: Can electronic checklists be provided to suppliers to perform selfaudits? (Similar to the checklist the auditor uses for the official Nadcap audit).
ACTION ITEM: HTTG to check with Nadcap Informatics Department on the feasibility of providing
electronic checklists to Supplier to use (Due Date: 24-Feb-2014).
46.0
OPENING COMMENTS
46.1
Call to Order/Quorum Check
47.0
OPEN MEETING TABLED SUBJECTS – OPEN
Supplier Voting Members: Is there a limit to the number Supplier Voting Members. According to
procedures there is no limit to the allowable number of Supplier Voting members.
48.0
NEW BUSINESS – OPEN
Staff Engineers presented a video made by the Non Destructive Testing (NDT) Task Group which
focused on Auditor Behavior.
There was an agreement between Materials Testing Laboratories (MTL) Task Group and HT for
using section 10 (Pyrometry) from the AC7102 (or AC7102/8 once approved). If suppliers are
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
using Load TC's MTL will continue to use AC7101/9 if Load TCs are not used MTL will use
AC7102 section 10 (or AC7102/8 when approved).
Top 10 NCR's discussion. Staff Engineers will locate the document created by the HT-STSTG
and HTTG that states the intent of the question and lists examples of acceptable objective
evidence of compliance. The HTTG asked the HT-STSTG to review the current Top 10 NCR's
and prepare a document listing the intent of the question and list examples of acceptable
objective evidence of compliance.
There was a question raised concerning a new note in eAuditNet on the Audit Review screens.
The new note states: " The supplier has not identified (Subscriber) as a customer". There is
confusion over this new note and what it means. Even though the supplier has identified the
Subscriber this note still appears.
ACTION ITEM: Contact Informatics Department to see how this note is generated and if it can be
changed to remove the confusion (Due Date: 24-Feb-2014).
49.0
RAIL NEW ACTIONS – OPEN
New actions added to the RAIL.
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•





Staff Engineers to provide percent of appeals/failures for Europe compared to
Americas at next Meeting
Staff Engineers to provide list of auditors from +/-4 NCR data
Send NMC Auditor Consistency chart for Slash S to Subscribers with Slash S sheets.
Staff Engineers to provide VCA's requested that had a simple majority vote but did
not meet the 2/3 majority requirement.
Check with I.T. on possible change to eAuditNet for supplier feedback forms resulting
in audit cycle
Check with I.T. for the note at top of Audit screen that says "supplier has not
identified Subscriber as a customer".
Check with I.T. if electronic checklist can be provided to suppliers for pre-audit.
Issue Auditor Advisory for start of soak AMS 2759 current and proposed revision.
Staff Engineer to create agenda for February 2014 meeting and forward to HTTG for
review and approval.
Staff Engineer to poll other Task Groups on what guidance they give to auditors for
selecting job audits and present results at February meeting.
Sub-Team for Brazing evaluation to present recommendations at February meeting
Sub-Team for Localized Heat Treat to present recommendations at February meeting.
Sub-team for Sintering to present recommendations at February meeting.
Sub-team for NOP-012 to present recommendations at February meeting
50.0
OPEN COMMENTS – CLOSED
50.1
Call to Order/Quorum Check
The Chair verified that only Subscriber Members are in attendance
51.0
AUDIT ALLOCATION – CLOSED
Audit Allocations were made up through March 2014. The HTTG Secretary will assign the
remaining audits that do not have 2 reviewers assigned.
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
52.0
CLOSED MEETING TABLED SUBJECTS – CLOSED
A supplier requested an extension of accreditation due to vandalism in its facility. The HTTG
agreed to extend the current accreditation for an additional 90 days which will allow the supplier
to make necessary repairs in order to host the reaccreditation audit.
The HTTG created a Sub-Team to address NOP-012. The Sub-Team will present a plan at the
February 2014 meeting on how the HTTG will comply with the requirements of NOP-012. The
Sub-Tam members are: Carol Backus, Jeff Thyssen, Greg Wryk, Cyril Vernault, Bob Faticanti,
Tawny Blumenshine, Sunder Rajan, Mike Corosino, Doug Matson, Jerry Aston and Stan Revers.
ACTION ITEM: Sub-Team to provide report on NOP-012 and how the HTTG will comply with the
requirements and present their recommendation at the February 2014 meeting (Due Date: 24-Feb2014).
53.0
NEW BUSINESS – CLOSED
Round Robin Testing- There was discussion about whether or not Heat Treat requires Round
Robin Testing. MTL removed the requirement from the checklist AC7101/4 which the Heat Treat
HTTG uses for testing. The general consensus of the HTTG is not to require Round Robin
Testing.
There was discussion concerning the proposed revision to NOP-011 regarding failed audits. The
HTTG members were asked to review the latest revision to NOP-011 and be prepared to discuss
at the February 2014 meeting.
There was a request from a Subscriber that when balloting an audit for failure to carefully look at
the audit report and critically consider if the accreditation should be withdrawn. Currently in
eAuditNet the accreditation is automatically withdrawn unless a Subscriber makes a comment
that the accreditation not be withdrawn.
A supplier that is moving its facility and has an audit scheduled for January 2014 (155708). They
asked if they could transfer the current accreditation. The HTTG decided the supplier must have
an audit at the new facility and could not just transfer the accreditation.
Some Subscriber’s parts where they are not the predominant customers of the supplier is
frequently not selected for Job Audits. There was a suggestion that the HTTG should provide
more guidance to the Auditors for selecting Job Audits to ensure over time the Subscriber’s work
are selected.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineers to poll other Task Groups to see what guidance they give auditors
for selection of job audits. Staff Engineers to present at the February 2014 meeting (Due Date: 24Feb-2014).
One Subscriber asked if a data logger and Thermal Couple were calibrated as one complete unit
resulting in one correction factor would this be acceptable during a Nadcap audit. The consensus
of the HTTG is that this is not an acceptable practice.
54.0
FINALIZE FEBRUARY 2014 AGENDA – CLOSED
The agenda for the February 2014 Nadcap meeting was discussed.
It was agreed that the Staff Engineers would create the agenda and forward to the HTTG for
approval/modification.
ACTION ITEM: Staff Engineer to create agenda for February 2014 meeting and forward for HTTG
for review and approval (Due Date: 01-Nov-2013).
HEAT TREATING
OCTOBER 2013
CONFIRMED
ADJOURNMENT – 24-Oct-2013 – Meeting was adjourned at (12:45) p.m.
Minutes Prepared by: Bruce Brownfield, Lockheed Martin Corporation e-mail:
bruce.brownfield@lmco.com
***** For PRI Staff use only: ******
Are procedural/form changes required based on changes/actions approved during this meeting? (select
one)
YES* ☒ NO ☐
*If yes, the following information is required:
Documents requiring revision:
Who is responsible:
AC7102 Rev H
PRI STAFF
AC7102/8 Rev NA
PRI STAFF
Due date:
31-Nov-13
31-Nov-13