Date of Meeting
5 April 2011
Group Name
NottsDerbys
Chair: HMRC Lead
Agent Representatives attending
John Cass (JC) Local Compliance
Stephen Faulkes (SF) MabeAllen ATT; CIOT
Martin Tomes (MT) Greenhalgh & Co CIOT
Sandra Collins (SC) Ash Accounting AAT
Cath Walker (CW) ICAEW
HMRC attendees
Cora Morley (CM) BCU WT Coordinator (WTC)
Suzanne Jervis (SJ) BCU Agent Account Manager (AAM)
Helen Hill (HH) BCU National Working Together Team (NWTT)
Apologies
Lynne Sitek
CM confirmed minutes had been circulated & agreed.
AP1 suggestion re extension of 7 day activation pin deadline had been submitted.
Update on all issues closed since last meeting
CM reminded group that this covered interim period & gave overview of whole of LWT. HH hoped that this was
useful & explained that dormant issues are not included; these are issues that NWT/HMRC would like to take
fwd/adopt but were subject to various constraints but would be revisited where opportune.
CM mentioned that WT Publication (WTP) 42 contained editorial on NWT issues register & indicated Top 5 settled
issues on page 3.
Update on Group’s existing unresolved issues
CM advised that both unresolved issues are in the Top 5 per WTP 42 page 4.
HH said DMB now operate on a campaigns basis identifying different types/segmentations of debtors & using
differing approaches with different letters etc. & no consistency. DMB are considering how they might raise agent
awareness of how they operate. They see their customer as the debtor which explains the lack of agent
communication however agents need to know & this need resolving.
MT stated that there is a need to be able to establish a dialogue but agents are bypassed.
CW added that it depends on the individual client. Some will need more support.
HH acknowledged the problems but there are difficulties. DMB use automated dialing ~ computer selects
telephone number from record without distinguishing who it relates to which explains why agents get “out of office
hours” calls for example.
MT commented that had DMB been more communicative it would have meant agents understood their process &
they would have been able to work with them.
JC reminded that 64-8 must be in place for DMB to be able to discuss clients’ debt with agent.
SC had been advised that some DMB staff had no access to systems. SJ said that she understood that field force
officers only know of debt to be pursued. HH advised that where debt is being pursued by non HMRC staff (debt
collection agency) they will need separate authority from client to discuss.
CM confirmed she will advise group of progress on unresolved issues.
JC commented that it was interesting that the top 5 issues had all been discussed by the group & how important it
was for issues to be dealt with in “real time”.
Post
CM stated that there had been progress. Firstly the move towards scanning of compliance post
Handling Incoming Compliance Post
CM referred to her message of 1 April requesting feedback particularly indicating any concerns but also including
benefits etc.
Secondly the centralisation of Self Assessment & PAYE (employee) post as detailed in WTP 42 page 7
HMRC WTP 42 April 2011
HH asked if agents were seeing an improvement in turn round times.
SF instanced a repayment notice dated 2 March & refund made towards end of month.
HH said that this may be due to security checking. CM will research & advise of current position AP1
JC added that Nottingham had recently outsourced post handling & had some initial teething problems but that
these had now been resolved.
SF asked if post sent in to Nottingham was being redirected. JC confirmed this will depend on the nature of the
post.
HH responded to MC who asked for post stats & referred to page 8 WTP 42 (link above). Although Self
Assessment and PAYE (employee) post receipts have increased over the last three months, the post on hand at
mid-February – at just under 584,000 items, is near a 2010-11 low and represents a 38% improvement in the
figures on hand at April 2010.
Currently 76% of the post on hand is less than three weeks old and a further 14% is under four weeks old. The
oldest post, received over 40 working days ago, has reduced from 138,000 items in April 2010 to 10,000 in midFebruary 2011 and now represents less than 1.8% of the work that is waiting attention. Some of the oldest post
relates to complex technical issues that require specialist advice before a full reply can be given.
HH reminded that this is in infancy & will need time to bed in.
CM advised that most of questions are answered in WT42. We are also aware of a potential fraud which may lead
to delays around requests for a change of address at the same time as, or quickly followed by, a request for reissue of a Self Assessment UTR,.
CW highlighted that there were more phishing scams emerging. CM asked group to ensure these are reported
promptly so that we can close them down asap.
HMRC Security Advice
Key Messages from HMRC
Helen Hill
Very pleased to be at the meeting. She has been member of NWTT for 18 months. In her role as manager of the
Issues register she has to identify issue & establish that it is a systemic problem rather than an individual/one off
problem that needs to be referred to the AAM resolution service. It may be that further research and evidence is
sometimes needed to identify an issue which is why agents are occasionally approached by WT coordinator for
additional information. Having established the issue HH then works with the business area to recognize that there
is a problem & get them to move to resolution. This is not easy. HMRC is under pressure to deliver. NWTT is very
small ~ 6 staff ~ so is not always able to do what they would desire.
HH has always had a strong customer focus She is happy to be part of NWT especially as the new model has
paved the way to give agents much more of a voice and greater involvement so that WT has the potential to
influence the department more than ever before..
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Agent Strategy (HH)
HMRC recognizes the importance of agents & are committed to improve our service to them. We are developing a
strategy for engaging with the tax professional community that will outline our vision of working with agents in the
future. As part of that engagement we will be exploring options on how best to put agents in a position to control
basic transactions on behalf of their clients. NWTT will ensure that suggestions from agents are included in
discussion when we come to explore specific options. Consultation document proposed for May 2011.
SC asked if HMRC intend vetting agents & raised concerns around security & bogus agents based on recent
experience.
HH advised it is likely HMRC will set standards & protocol in consultation with the agent professional bodies. JC
confirmed that HMRC have access to sufficient information to do background checks Agents concerns should be
raised through consultation period.
CW asked if there was possibility of being able to view employer payments’ online as this is annual problem when
agents complete EoY & try to reconcile payments etc. MT & SC thought this had been raised previously. CM will
investigate & take fwd as suggestion.
SF raised concerns about current standard of coding. CM asked for details to be sent as she had instances of
clients being given age related allowances where total income greatly in excess of limit. CM had established that at
present NPS system was using previous pay & tax details only & investment income is not considered. HH
confirmed that this should be resolved once SA Auto coding is switched on. CM referred agents to message 7
March 2011 (App1 att’d).
Suzanne Jervis (AAM)
Two more toolkits, taking the total to 17, have been published to make it easier for tax agents and advisers –
“Capital Gains Tax for shares” and “Income Tax losses”.
JC added that three additional Toolkits had been released earlier in the year – “National Insurance contributions
and statutory payments”, “VAT Output Tax” and “VAT partial exemption”.
CW commented that she found the expenses & benefits & the directors’ loan accounts particularly useful to
demonstrate obligations etc to recalcitrant clients & SF agreed.
Toolkits
AAMs now have approx 2500 agents registered to use service & target is 15,000 by September 2011.
SJ knew that all agents at meeting had registered. SF had registered but as practice has three offices do they need
to register. SJ confirmed that registration linked to agent code so require registering for each. SJ also advised that
some agents were registering but failing to share with colleagues so we are getting duplicate registrations.
AAM Issues service has received 600 referrals since its introduction.
February enhancements included:
 Speaker request
You can request a speaker to come to your meeting to deliver a presentation on a range of topical subjects
which currently include:

the Agent Account Manager role

agent services

online services for agents

penalty regime

toolkits
This list is updated regularly & is not exhaustive. Bespoke presentations can be requested. The speakers can also
facilitate DVD-based learning products on compliance checks and penalties.
 Deregistration
 Feedback.
Unfortunately this has only been used to record negative responses & whilst we understand that generally
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customers will take time to express dissatisfaction & we can assume that the rest are satisfied we want to
encourage agents to use the feedback form.
SJ advised of other developments including webinars live on u tube:
Penalty Video
SJ advised that she had not arranged any events in Nottingham as we were restricted to market to AAM registered
agents only & the majority of Nottingham agents had attended very similar event last year. Should a group of
agents want presentation then use request form.
CW is finding Twitter feed very useful & has Tweeted information to clients.
SJ advised there are further enhancements planned to the AAM portal (KANA) & agents will be updated.
Agent Account Managers
64-8 processing ~ Long Benton
SJ advised that turn round times are being met apart from “Agent Maintainer Change to existing agent details to
update SA agent database” & additional resources have been deployed to this work
CW uses online service all time & recommends it. Her only criticism is the “cancel” button is next to “enter code”.
Suggests consideration be given to “are you sure” before cancelling transaction. CM AP2
MT asked whether it was possible to have two agents one for Payroll & P11D. HH advised that system only allows
for one agent and explained that a single transaction authority can be given in much the same way as for Local
Compliance cases when a second agent is appointed just for the duration of an enquiry. JC confirmed that letter of
authority is acceptable.
MT suggested that consideration should be given to breaking the link between general payroll & P11Ds.
CM HMRC Updates
R40 working group
R40 Working Group meeting took place in December 2010. There was an improvement in turnaround though a
range of issues raised and confirmed. R40 policy holders now considering next steps to put appropriate service
improvements in place. Seeking fit with the "Transformation of Repayment processes" & a meeting has been
arranged for 24 May with Customer Operations and the working group to address a number of the issues raised
HH mentioned the withdrawal of R40G & CM quoted from R40 Notes (2011):
“If you have Capital Gains Tax to pay, even if overall you are due a repayment of tax for the year, you must not
complete the R40 but instead register for Self Assessment (SA). You can then give details about your capital gains
in your SA Tax Return”.
SF asked what happens to R40s showing PAYE earnings. HH said that PAYE income complicates matters. The
National Claims Office (NCO) at Leicester deals with pure claims only; where PAYE income has been received the
R40 is passed to PAYE to process as NCO do not have access to National Insurance and PAYE Service (NPS)
system. SF had encountered problem with R40 being passed back & forth between NCO & PAYE office & had to
use AAM to resolve.
ADL
CM advised that this remains open & is working alongside post working sub group to continue improvement. One
of the options being considered is channeling Agent Employer queries using ADL. Next review date is May 2011.
Self Assessment
CM advised group of the penalty flyer advising customers of the new penalty regime for late filing & payment in SA.
Penalties Flyer
HH added that this was bringing SA in line to have consistency across penalty regime.
Statements
Some Self Assessment statements intended for dispatch between 23 February 2011 and 8 March 2011 were
delayed due to a stationary outage.
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Issue of these delayed statements will be completed by 29 March 2011, but will show the original dates of
selection which were 2, 3 and 4 March 2011.
HH highlighted that this date is not changed as it is important for the customer to be aware that the statement
reflects the account position at that time, and will not include more recent transactions.
Olympic Games Helpline
The Olympic Games Helpline (0845 366 1123) opens on 4 April 2011. These specially trained advisers will handle
enquiries about VAT, Excise and income tax within their remit and they will refer more complex enquiries as
appropriate. CM commented that agents may consider that this is a London issue however there will be training
camps around the country & nationwide opportunities to tender for contracts to supply goods/services etc.
Payments from April 2011
CM reminded agents of the changes that affect Corporation Tax; Class 2 NIC; PAYE late payment penalties:
Penalties for submitting a VAT return on paper instead of online.
Paying HMRC changes from April 2011
Excise Visits Factsheets
CM advised that a factsheet covering Excise Visits had been published recently.
Excise Visits FS16
LWT Referral Template
CM distributed copy of new interactive referral template & confirmed she will distribute electronic copy however she
is happy to continue with present system. Main objective is to get real time issues.
CM canvassed group about opportunity for representative of Research & Development team to attend meeting to
advise agents on opportunities etc. CM will approach team to see if there is possibility for next meeting. AP3
New Issues Resolved at the Meeting
Business Record Checks
SF: Can you provide any additional detail with regard to the new HMRC initiative to target 50,000 small
businesses regarding their business records and what HMRC is exactly looking for in this respect?
JC advised that as consultation had just concluded he was unable to answer however the report was expected
within the next few weeks & he would then be in a position to respond.
MC was aware that some letters had already been issued & SF confirmed that two formal letters had been received
by associates. The accountancy profession is really concerned about it, especially the effect on professional
indemnity.
JC said that this was a period of “test & learn” but as far as he was aware Nottingham was not involved at this
stage. Target new business basis of education; awareness; what constitutes good records for HMRC purposes.
SF said that as HMRC are aware incomplete/inaccurate records are a fact of life & agents need to know what
HMRC are looking for. This had been discussed at CIOT meeting.
JC anticipates HMRC will provide guidance. Ethos is to educate rather than impose penalties.
CW had heard that HMRC had imposed penalties in all checks undertaken so far although this may be an urban
myth.
JC advised that although he does not have stats the number of penalties issued is in single figures.
CW asked if the stats could be provided. JC said they may not be in the public domain. CM advised that CW could
make request under Freedom of Information.
Freedom of Information
SF added that the legality had been raised by John Whiting.
JC pointed out that these are not compliance checks. Business Record Checks (BRC) main objective is education.
CW stated that there should be an opportunity to correct practices etc prior to BRC.
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JC acknowledged comments & once full facts are available he will respond.
CT Online
SF: What would and would not constitute a 'reasonable attempt' in filing under iXBRL if an agent has
unfortunately failed to do so?
Penalties – HMRC’s Approach: CM advised that HMRC is looking to support and educate customers, rather than to
penalise them. In the first two years of compulsory online filing particularly there will be a sympathetic approach to
the interpretation of the concepts of ‘reasonable excuse’ and ‘reasonable care’ where someone has encountered
unforeseen problems with IT. HMRC’s approach is detailed in guidance published on our website on 9 February
2011.
CT online -Managing the Transition
The flexibilities and sympathetic approach explained in the guidance means that everyone who has to file a
Company Tax Return online should be able to do so on time, with computations and (where required) in iXBRL
format.
CM advised that any software related problems should be put to software provider however any question re HMRC
issues should be passed to her for referral to specialist team.
AOB
HH: Pleased to have attended the meeting & thanked group for hospitality. NWTT want to give WTP a sense of
community & are asking for contributions for inclusion in future editions. Good news stories, successes etc. should
be sent to CM for transmission to editorial team.
SJ thanked SF for his contribution re Toolkits in WTP42 & added that HH also featured.
SC Asked what publicity was being undertaken for Plumbers tax Safe? CM explained that she would get details &
advise.
SF asked why plumbers? CM advised part of campaigns :- furnished lettings; offshore; medical. Targeting
Plumbers but anyone can use to make declaration & the instructions are included on the Internet:
Plumbers tax Safe Plan (PTSP)
Meeting ended 12:40
Date of Next Meeting 16 August 2011
Summary of Action Points
AP1: SA repayments selected for security checks CM
AP2: Suggests consideration be given to “are you sure” before cancelling transaction. CM
AP3: CM will approach R&D team & extend invitation to next meeting.
Summary of hyperlinks
Handling Incoming Compliance Post
HMRC WT Issue 42 April 2011
HMRC SECURITY ADVICE
Toolkits
Agent Account Managers
Penalties Flyer
Paying HMRC changes from April 2011
Freedom of Information
CT online -Managing the Transition
Plumbers tax Safe Plan (PTSP)
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Appendix 1
March 2011
Dear Agent Colleague
Self Assessment (SA) Autocoding and the National Insurance and PAYE Service (NPS) interface
I am writing to let you know that we will be switching on our new SA Autocoding functionality early in 2011-12.
SA Autocoding will allow relevant information from an SA Return with a PAYE source to flow to NPS, and
automatically calculate and issue revised codes. This will mean that the tax code will be more accurate and the
right amount of PAYE tax paid.
In advance of switching on the SA Autocoding functionality, we have been routinely updating tax codes when
dealing with telephone calls and correspondence from customers.
Where a tax code has been revised for 2011-12 following a contact from a customer with up to date information,
SA Autocoding will not override that adjustment but it will continue to update the code with any additional relevant
information from the return.
Customers who file SA Returns will continue to receive their annual statement of tax due. Payment dates remain
the same.
We will continue to code established SA underpayments of up to £1999.99. This is a separate interface and so not
affected by the introduction of SA Autocoding.
We will open the SA Autocoding interface early in 2011-12. This will be well in advance of returns being filed in any
significant numbers, enabling 2011-12 codes to be updated as returns are filed. Should a return be filed before the
interface is opened, the information in the return relevant to the coding will be stored and will flow to NPS once the
interface is live.
Those submitting their SA Returns early in the year will receive most benefit from a coding adjustment as the
revised code will operate for a longer period.
In many cases, customer’s agents/representatives will submit SA Returns. Any revised autocoding will be sent to
the customer. No copy will be sent to the agent/representative.
Some Q&As about SA Autocoding (may assist in dealing with clients’ queries)
1. What sort of information will you use from my SA Return and include in my tax code?
We will use information from your SA Return that will help keep your tax code accurate so you pay the right
amount of PAYE tax. We can include tax reliefs you are entitled to plus make a deduction for other income you
may have that isn’t taxed before you get it. A few examples are shown below.
Income that could be include as a deduction in your code
Interest not taxed before you get it
Tips from your job, such as a hairdresser
Commission
Income from property you let out
Tax relief for payments you make
Flat rate expenses
Expenses incurred in doing your job
Professional Subscriptions
Gift Aid donations
Personal pension payments
Trade union subscriptions
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2. I contacted you and asked for my SA Return to be reflected in my tax code – what does starting the
SA Autocoding process mean for me?
If your code has already been changed because you contacted us and asked us to review it then it will
already reflect data from your latest return. SA Autocoding will only update your code if your 2010-11 SA
return shows changes in your income or deductions.
3. Why didn’t you switch the SA Autocoding functionality on it 2010-11?
We have taken the decision not to open the interface between SA and NPS during 2010-11 because we do
not want to divert resources from the work being done to make sure that the End of Year Reconciliation
and Annual Coding exercises run as smoothly as possible.
Regards
Jo Penny
Assistant Director
Business Engagement Team
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