Visionary Voices Interview
Jackie and Sami Csaniz
May 24, 2013
CHAPTER ONE: BACKGROUND
18:33:06:15 – 18:33:31:04
L. My name is Lisa Sonneborn and I am interviewing Jackie and Sami Csaniz here at Temple University on
May 24, 2013 and also present is videographer Lindsey Martin and our videographer Ginger Jolly and
Jackie and Sami, do I have your permission to begin our interview.
S. Mm-hmm.
L. Jackie is it okay to start our interview?
S. Mm-hmm.
L. Great. Thank you very much.
18:33:31:10 – 18:33:47:00
L: I’m going to start with an easy question. Can each of you, starting with Jackie, tell me your name and
how old you are?
J. Jackie Csaniz; 27.
S. My name is Samantha Csaniz and I’m 26.
18:33:47:10 – 18:34:01:20
L. And can each, can you tell me what your relationship is to each other? How do you know each other?
J. I know Samantha since a baby.
S. No, what are we? Are we brother and sister?
J. Sister.
S. Sisters.
18:34:03:10 – 18:34:09:20
L. Jackie and Sami where do you both live?
J. Springfield.
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S. Springfield, PA.
18:34:10:10 – 18:34:25:10
L. And can you tell me a little bit about the members of your family?
J. I have a mom, Max, Katie, and daddy.
S. Our mom, dad, Katie and our dog Max.
18:34:26:05 – 18:34:34:10
L. And you all live together?
J. Yes.
S. Yep, one big happy family.
18:34:35:20 – 18:34:57:25
L. Jackie, can you tell me what it’s like having two younger sisters?
J. Um, I like Sami and Katie best sister.
S. What’s it like though? Are we a pain?
J. No.
S. No? We don’t bug you.
J. No. It’s fine.
S. We’re fine?
18:34:59:20 – 18:36:12:25
L. Um, in what ways, Sami and Jackie, do you two think you’re alike as sisters or are you alike at all?
J. Mm-hmm.
S. How are we alike?
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J. Different.
S. No, what are we… how are we alike? What do we like to do that’s the same thing?
J. Swimming.
S. Swimming, what else?
J. Baseball.
S. Mm-hmm.
J. And field hockey.
S. Those are the things you do. What do we do together?
J. Go swimming.
S. And?
J. Eat.
S. And? What do we do on Tuesdays and Thursday nights?
J. Kickboxing.
S. We like to go to kickboxing. We like to listen to the same kind of music. I’m guilty of listening to
Hannah Montana, Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, um…
L. Taylor Swift?
S. Taylor Swift too, yeah.
J. Mm-Hmm.
S. Um, I think that’s pretty much it.
18:36:15:00 – 18:36:36:15
L. Are there ways that you are very different from each other?
S. How are we different?
J. Our hair.
S. We have different color hair she said. How else? Is that it?
J. Mmm hmm.
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18:36:39:00 – 18:37:31:15
L. Jackie, you were born with Down syndrome. Are you the only member of your family who has a
disability?
J. Mm-hmm.
L. What is that like? Do you and your family talk about your disability?
J. Yeah.
18:37:35:25 – 18:38:57:25
J. I’m going to ask a little bit about growing up together, growing up with your sisters and your mom and
your dad and I think you had a dog when you were growing up.
J. Yeah.
L. Named? What was your dog’s name?
J. Charlotte.
S. No, what’s the dog’s name?
J. Max.
S. No.
L. Well you have Max now and when you were growing up you had a dog.
J. Martha.
L. Martha, right. So I'm going to ask you a little bit about growing up. Um did you all play together as
children when you were growing up?
J. Mm-hmm.
L. What kind of games did you play when you were all playing together?
J. Um, Martha and my…
S. No Jac, what kind of games did we play when we were little? Are you listening to what she’s asking
you? What kind of games did we play?
J. Toys.
S. What kind of toys? What kind of, did we play any card games?
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J. The penny game.
S. The penny game, this game that my mom like invented. She would always have cards at her house
with her sisters and she always wanted to play with them so then they invented this penny game where
you like roll a dice. I don’t really know how to play it.
J. We play second…
S. Oh whenever you roll a seven you have to put a penny in.
18:38:59:10 – 18:40:11:05
L. Did you enjoy playing that game Jackie?
J. Yes, I liked it.
S. What other games did we play?
J. Checkers.
S. Checkers.
J. Uno Attack.
S. Did we play school?
J. Yeah.
S. House?
J. Mm-hmm.
S. What else?
J. Uno attack.
S. Uno?
J. Attack.
S. Uno attack?
J. Yeah.
S. What else did we play?
J. Checkers.
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S. Did we have dolls?
J. No.
S. We didn’t have dolls?
J. Oh yeah.
S. Did we have Barbies?
J. Yep.
S. Did we play video games?
J. Yep.
S. What else did we play? Did we play outside?
J. Yep.
S. On the swing set?
J. Yep.
S. What was that thing we had when we were little? Remember that big round thing? We used to jump
on it.
J. Jump?
S. No. What was it? You remember. Remember we used to jump on it and then it snowed and it broke.
J. My…
S. Tramp….
J. Trampoline.
S. Trampoline.
S. Did we used to go to the pool a lot?
J. Yeah.
18:40:12:00 - 18:40:54:25
L. Would you play with kids in the neighborhood or mostly just your sisters?
J. Uh, my best friend Lauren.
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S. Your best friend Lauren?
J. Yeah.
S. Did we play with kids in the neighborhood?
J. No.
S. We didn’t?
J. Oh yeah, yes. Amy.
S. Mm-hmm and who lives next door?
J. Debbie
S. No who used to live next door to us?
J. Oh yeah, Laura…
S. Our neighbor Laura. Did we play with any other kids?
J. My friends.
S. You played with your friends.
18:41:17:15 – 18:42:20:10
L. So we were talking about um playing with kids in the neighborhood and we’re looking at some photo
albums from when you guys were little. There’s a picture there of you guys in the snow. Do you
remember playing outside in your neighborhood on snowy days?
J. Yes at Tom and Doreen’s house.
S. At our neighbor’s house, Tom and Doreen.
L. What would you guys do when you were playing out in the snow? What kinds of things would you do?
J. Snowball fights.
S. Snowball fight. What else? What did we used to make a lot?
J. Snowman.
S. And remember we would lay down and put our arms out like this? What was that?
J. Angel.
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S. Snow angel. Remember that one time, what did Laura make? We crawled through it.
J. Uh…
S. It was like an igloo.
J. Oh igloo.
S. She made a tunnel because we had so much snow so she like dug down a tunnel. I was too afraid to
go in it. I’m like claustrophobic but yeah.
18:42:21:05 – 18:42:51:05
L. And what about, I'm trying to think of other kind of fun things that kids do in the neighborhoods
growing up. Like Halloween, is Halloween a holiday you enjoyed with your family?
J. Yeah with Sam and Katie.
S. What did we do on Halloween?
J. Trick or Treat.
S. Did we get a lot of candy?
J. Yeah.
S. Did you eat it all that night?
J. No. I was…
S. Yeah right. You ate it all.
J. No! I saved… saved it for Daddy.
S. Oh. Saved it for Daddy.
18:42:51:15 – 18:43:17:00
L. You have a picture of Halloween in your book. Can you tell me about your costumes and when you
were all going out trick or treating?
J. I was a hippie.
S. You were a hippie.
J. Yes.
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S. What am I?
J. Igloo.
S. Igloo? No that’s Cleopatra.
J. Yeah Cleopatra and Katie was Lion King.
S. Katie was Lion King? I think she’s a tiger.
J. Yeah, tiger.
18:43:18:05 – 18:43:48:00
L. Do you remember some of your favorite Halloween costumes?
J. Mm-hmm.
L. Can you tell me what one of them was?
J. Hippie.
L. A hippie?
J. Yeah.
S. What were you one year? Remember you had the blond wig on, the long blond wig?
J. Oh, witch.
S. Witch? No. Remember? You had the long blonde wig. You used to love that show.
J. I don’t know.
S. You know. You were a pop star.
J. Taylor.
18:44:00:25 – 18:44:58:05
L. So Jackie and Sami - you both started elementary school at the same time or in the same grade.
J. Mm-hmm.
L. Sami, what was that like for you, starting school with your sister?
S. Um, I liked it just because when I was younger I was so shy that like even um my mom tried to put me
in a grade since I’m a year younger than Jackie she tried to put me in the grade below, or the grade
9
above and um, she wanted to put Jackie in the grade below but I was so shy that my teacher told my
mom that I was immature and that I should repeat the grade so then we ended up being in the same
grade together. But I liked it, because I was so shy, so it was nice to have someone there with me. So
that was good.
L. Do you remember Sami being shy?
J. Mm-hmm.
L. Yeah? Did you look after her because you were her big sister?
J. Yeah.
18:44:58:25 – 18:45:17:25
L. Okay. Did you share friends when you were in school together?
J. Yeah.
S. I made all my friends through Jackie, pretty much. It was like my mom would have people over and we
would all play together and then that’s how we became friends.
18:45:21:00 – 18:45:52:20
L. Did you… did you do some of the same activities in elementary school?
S. What did we do in elementary school?
J. Um, cheerleader.
S. We were cheerleaders. What else did we do?
J. Um, birthday.
S. No, we had sleepovers.
J. Oh yeah, sleepovers.
S. And what else did we do?
J. Swimming.
S. Mm-hmm.
18:46:10:25 – 18:46:43:25
S. What else did we do in school?
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J. Math.
S. Math. We did math.
J. Social studies.
S. And social studies. Those are subjects.
J. Uh…
S. Did we play a lot?
J. Mm-hmm.
18:46:48:05 – 18:47:24:05
L. Jackie do you think that students ever treated you differently, some of the kids you went to school
with, because you had a disability?
J. Mm-hmm.
L. How did they treat you differently?
J. They teased me.
L. And do you remember what they said when they would tease you?
J. Bad words.
S. Bad words?
J. Yeah, bad words.
18:47:25:10 – 18:47:56:00
L. And Sami, do you remember that happening to Jackie, did you observe or hear kids teasing her?
S. In elementary school not really because everyone is so young. They, you know, everyone likes
everyone but middle school was different and yeah I definitely saw that.
L. Okay, do you know some of the words that kids use that are mean, Jackie, did you ever hear the “R”
word used?
J. Yeah.
L. And how would that word make you feel when you would hear that?
J. Sad.
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18:47:58:20 – 18:48:25:15
L. Sami, what would you response be if you heard kids using that word?
S. Um, at first I would get, like, really pissed off and then um I’d probably go home and cry so I was a
wimp. But you know, I would just be like “don’t say that word”. Or sometimes I wouldn’t say anything. I
would just kind of internalize it; internalize it a lot actually.
18:48:29:00 – 18:49:09:20
L. You said, Sami, that things were different when you went to middle school. Um, middle school is kind
of a tough time, right, because kids are always trying to form their own identity at that point and maybe
recognize I think is their own person. So did going to school as sisters make it hard for both of you to
sort of be your own people?
S. Did you feel like your own person in school?
J. Mm-hmm.
S. I mean I didn’t really just because it was like constantly we were together so it was like I never got
that separation of like being my own person.
18:49:15:00 – 18:50:10:10
L. And you mentioned that in middle school the experience changed a little bit. The kids were kinder and
gentler in elementary school. How did the experience change in middle school?
S. Um, well we have two elementary schools in our area so everyone that we went to elementary school
with knew Jackie, knew who she was, all that stuff but then once we got into middle school the other
elementary school came in and they didn’t have anyone with a disability, like well with Down syndrome
in their grade or class so I think it was a lot different because you had people coming in that didn’t know
disability was or what Down syndrome was so I think it made them judge a lot more and the kids that
we went to elementary school with.
18:50:13:20 – 18:50:54:10
L. Okay, you both also have been and are Temple University students.
J. Mm-hmm.
L. Um did you have any reservations, Sami, about going to Temple at the same time Jackie was going to
Temple?
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S. Um, well I started before she did and then she came. I mean I was really happy that she was coming.
Um, I mean she, you know, and so it was all about Temple anyway because my mom works here, so it
wasn’t like anything different, and I rarely saw her around campus so that was kind of nice, no offense.
18:50:55:00 – 18:51:34:22
L. Jackie, can you tell me about going to Temple? About going to college here? Did you like studying at
temple?
J. Yeah and I have a friend Erin at Temple too.
S. Her friend Erin goes to Temple too.
L. What kind of classes did you take when you were here?
J. I take seminar class.
S. What else did you take?
J. Sew.
S. Show?
J. Sewing.
S. Oh sewing class.
J. Yeah, sewing class.
S. Did you take a dance class here too?
J. Hip-hop class.
S. You took a hip-hop class.
18:51:36:10 – 18:51:50:25
L. And did you work when you were on campus like a lot of students do?
J. Yeah.
L. What did you do?
J. I work at the hotel.
L. And what did you do at the hotel?
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J. Clean different stuff.
18:51:52:25 – 18:52:43:19
L. Can you tell me about some of the friends you made when you were studying at Temple?
J. Erin.
S. Who else? Everyone knows Erin. Who else did you make friends with?
J. Paul.
S. Paul. Who else?
J. Lior.
S. Lior.
J. Charles.
S. Charles.
J. Brenda.
S. Brenda.
J. I miss her. Alex, Keona.
S. Keona.
J. Misty.
S. Mm-hmm.
J. Mrs. Perry.
S. Who is your mentor?
J. Sunit.
S. Sunit and who else? It was just Sunit?
J. Yeah. Oh and Kate and Todd.
S. And Kate and Todd?
J. Yeah. I miss her.
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S. Do you still talk to them?
J. Yeah.
S. What about Lior?
J. Him too.
S. Yeah?
18:52:45:25 – 18:53:00:10
L. Um, Jackie now that you’ve graduated what are you doing? Do you have a job?
J. Yes I do.
L. And can you tell me about your job?
J. I work at Giant and Scenic Hills.
S. Scenic Hills is the elementary school we went to.
18:53:00:15 – 18:53:30:20
L. Well firstly what do you do at Giant?
J. I’m a bagger there.
L. And what do you do at Scenic Hills?
J. I volunteer and I do math.
S. She volunteers.
L. And you said you do math, what type of math do you do?
J. I grade them.
S. She grades the math sheets.
L. And do you support your old teacher there?
J. Yeah, Miss. Mack.
L. Would you like to do more work?
15
J. Yeah.
18:53:32:00 – 18:53:44:10
L. What would your dream job be?
J. Office. My mom’s office.
L. And what kind of… what would you like to do at an office?
J. Shredding.
S. Training?
J. No, shred.
S. Oh shredding.
18:53:45:20 – 18:55:04:20
L. Jackie, when you're not working, because it sounds like you‘re pretty busy with your jobs, what would
you like to do?
J. Uh…
S. What do you do when you’re not working?
J. Um.
S. What do you do?
J. Watch TV.
L. Do you have a favorite TV show?
J. Yeah, Law & Order.
S. Law & Order…
J. SVU.
L. Law and Order…
J. SVU.
L. What does that stand for?
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J. Stabler .
L. Oh, is that your favorite character?
J. Yeah. I like him.
S. But what does SVU stand for?
J. Law & Order.
S. Special Victims Unit.
J. Special Victims Unit
L. Why do you like that show?
J. My guys on there.
S. Because her guys on there.
L. Stabler.
J. Stabler.
L. Why is Stabler so cool?
J. Because I like him.
S. He’s a good cop, right?
J. Yeah. He has a partner Olivia.
S. And he has a partner, Olivia.
18:55:14:20 – 18:56:00:20
L. So do you watch TV by yourself or with other people?
J. My dad.
S. Do you ever watch TV with me?
J. Yeah.
S. You do? When?
J. We watch Sponge Bob.
S. Oh we watch Sponge Bob I know it’s a little immature.
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J. I like him Sponge Bob and Patrick.
S. If it’s not Sponge Bob, we’re not watching TV together. She won't let me sit in the room with her.
Right?
L. How come? Why can't your sister sit in the room with you?
J. She teases me.
S. Huh?
J. She teases me.
S. I tease you?
J. Yeah.
18:56:01:15 – 18:56:52:00
L. Can you tell me about some of your friends you like to hang out with?
J. Erin, Ryan, Stephanie, Britney, Kelly, and Holly.
S. And…
J. and Melissa.
S. What about Gina.
J. I said her.
S. Oh.
J. I said (inaudible).
S. What do you guys do?
J. Girl’s night.
S. You have girl’s night? What do you do at girl’s night? What do you do at girl’s night?
J. Girls.
S. But what do you do?
J. Have pizza, have cake, dance.
S. Dance?
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J. Play Wii.
S. Huh?
J. Play Wii.
S. Play Wii. Do you have karaoke?
J. Laurie doesn’t have that.
S. Laurie doesn’t have that.
18:56:53:10 – 18:57:26:20
L. It sounds like you have a nice group of friends, Jackie.
J. I do. I have all my best friend and Paul. His birthday is today. Six o’clock.
S. Six o’clock tonight, yep.
L. Will you do something special for his birthday?
J. Yeah we will go to her house.
S. And going to her house?
J. It’s her house. Dog there.
S. There’s a dog there.
J. Yeah barks a lot.
S. Barks a lot? Hmm sounds like our dog.
J. Yep.
18:57:27:15 – 18:58:09:10
L. Jackie and Sami, you both live with your family now…
J. Yep.
L. This question is for Jackie right now. Do you ever want to live on your own?
J. Yes. With Paul.
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S. With Paul?
J. Yeah, Paul. My best friend. Paul.
S. You want to live with him?
J. Nah, I’ll live with Erin.
S. You want to live with Erin?
J. Yeah.
S. In your own apartment?
J. Yep.
S. With me?
J. Nope.
L. You don’t want to live with your sister?
J. No.
L. How come?
J. I like Erin.
S. I thought I was your bestest sister ever!
J. Alright - Erin and Sami.
18:58:13:00 – 18:59:08:10
L. Jackie, for people who don’t know you so well, what is one thing people should know about you? How
would you describe yourself to someone who didn’t know you?
J. Oh…
S. Are you nice?
J. Yeah.
S. Friendly?
J. Yep.
S. Courteous?
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J. Hmm?
S. Are you polite?
J. Mm-hmm.
S. Are you?
J. Yes.
S. Are you helpful?
J. Yep.
S. You hold the door for people?
J. Yep.
S. You do?
J. Yep.
S. Wow.
18:59:10:15 – 18:59:42:20
L. Do you think for Jackie having a disability makes it harder to do some of the things you want to do?
J. I like math and color.
S. No, is it harder for you to do things because you have a disability?
J. Oh yeah.
S. Why?
J. Uh… It’s not easy.
S. It’s not easy?
J. Mm-hmm.
18:59:48:00 – 19:00:20:15
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L. Jackie, I wanted to ask you what your favorite thing is about your sister Sami.
J. Uh, Sami is teacher at Karate.
S. That’s your favorite thing about me?
J. No, you teach um kickboxing.
S. But what’s your favorite thing about me?
J. Sami is my best sister and Katie too.
19:00:22:00 – 19:01:16:15
L. What’s your favorite thing about yourself?
J. Uh…
L. What ‘s your favorite thing about yourself?
J. Color.
S. That you can color?
J. And math.
S. And that you do math.
L. Sami, what’s your favorite thing about Jackie?
S. Just that there’s no judgment whatsoever about anyone and she just has like an “I don’t give a hoot
about anything”, you know. She just doesn’t care.
19:01:17:05 - 19:01:47:25
L. Thanks. Jackie, we’re going to talk to Sami for a little bit but is there something else that you want to
say about having a sister or…
J. Uh.
L. Or something you want to share about you?
J. Sami is the best sister because she takes me to kickboxing.
S. I’m the best sister because I take you to kickboxing?
22
J. Yeah.
S. Where would you be without me?
L. Okay. Thanks Jackie.
J. Mm-hmm.
INTERVIEW CONTINUES WITH SAMI
19:13:07:20 – 19:14:02:20
L. Sami, we’re continuing the interview with you on your own so that you can feel free to discuss some
of the issues, that you faces as a sibling without perhaps having to be concerned about how that will
sound and make Jackie feel, so that’s why we’re going forward this way. So some of the things that I’ll
ask you might seem a little redundant. We talked about them earlier so just bear with me.
CHAPTER TWO: SAMI’S STUDIES IN SPECIAL EDUCATION
L. You’re currently a student, where are you studying and what are you studying?
S. I’m a student at Temple University and I’m studying recreational therapy.
L. And when you came into Temple was that your intended major?
S. No I actually wanted be… I really wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to be a teacher since I could talk
probably. Um we always played school when I was little and I’d always be the teacher and teach my
sisters.
19:14:03:00 – 19:15:14:15
L. So why aren’t you studying education?
S. Well when I was in education we had to take, I was education Special-Ed or elementary Ed and
Special-Ed and I would just be my Special-Ed classes and they’d always tall about this “normal” and I just
never understood what “normal” was because to me no one is normal and uh it just, it just didn’t seem
like the right fit for me. It just wasn’t what I wanted to do. I felt like, they like… not really tried to baby
but it was kind of like, oh we have these, you know, Special-Ed kids now so we have to learn this way or
that way. It wasn’t like trying to teach everyone. It was more of like, I don’t know. I just didn’t feel like it
was the right fit for me. It was more of like, like a pity kind of thing. Like that we have to teach kids with
special needs. I don’t know. Just didn’t fit right.
19:15:15:10 – 19:16:59:10
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L. You said you had some issues with this idea of making things normal for kids with disabilities. Can you
tell me a little more about that because I know this idea of normalization, was very big in the disability
community for a very long time.
S. Mm-hmm. Well they would talk about like mainstreaming and like inclusion but they like, kids with
special needs weren’t included. It was like ok we’ll include them in gym and art and lunch but for math,
reading, writing, all that other stuff; they’ll go down to the west wing where no one goes, kind of thing.
That just really irritated me because if you're trying to make tings normal then you would put them in
the classroom with everyone else and not in the west wing where no one is and no one sees you, you
know. I mean like it was great but they, you know, kids who had special needs and did have lunch with
us and with the normal kids and not by themselves in their classrooms but it was also really frustrating
because then it’s like they're not really like learning how to like to be normal I guess. You know?
Because you're keeping them secluded for half the day and only bringing them in for like specials.
Whereas, like even for like gym, you know like it was kind of like ok well, just stand off to the side for a
little bit and watch. I don’t know just irritated me a lot.
19:17:15:20 – 19:18:43:10
L. Did you have any opportunity to visit classrooms and sort of observe kids?
S. Oh yeah. I went to my old elementary school and we were in, it was a regular class and they had, it
was like a special reader day or something and I remember I think, I mean, I know I’m not one to
diagnosis or anything but I think this one young boy had autism and he was kind of like fidgeting around.
Now this was like a first grade classroom so he was like fidgeting around, all the kids were, but he had an
aide with him who was sitting behind him and you know he was just like looking around like this lady is
reading a book. I don’t know if he was really interested in it or not but I remember the aide grabbed his
head and forced him to look forward. And I was sitting there like, are you kidding me right now? There is
like twenty other kids that are playing with their shoelaces or, you know, not paying attention. Why did
she have to grab his head and make him look forward? I knew right then and there I didn’t want to do it
anymore because I didn’t want to be involved in that. I just thought that was really wrong of her to do
and if his mother was there she probably would have flipped because no aide should do that to any
child, disability or not. I mean that was just…. I couldn’t believe she did that.
CHAPTER THREE: SAMI’S CHILDHOOD
19:18:46:00 – 19:20:21:00
L. So earlier Sami, we were talking with you and Jackie about your childhood and some of your school
experiences. If it’s ok I’d like to ask you more about that. Jackie is your older sister.
S. Mm-hmm.
L. And I do know from our previous conversations that when she was little and an infant she was ill. And
I know you wouldn’t remember that because you are younger than she is. But can you tell me what you
know about that from sort of family stories?
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S. I just remember that my mom told me that I lived with my grandparents for a while and uh because
my dad would be working and then my mom would be at the hospital a lot with Jackie. But I don’t, I
mean I don’t really remember any of that. I don’t remember being with my grandparents a lot or
anything but I do remember she told me that one time, it was like I think it was Easter or something and
Jackie was in the hospital and they brought me to visit and I was like running up the hallway and my
mom was like, “Oh Samantha!” and I ran up and I slapped her across the face, and all my like
grandparents were like Carol, you're going to let her do that to you? And she was like, “Yeah, I haven’t
been around” and I mean that’s all I really know. I just remember, I also remember from pictures she
had this cast thing on because she had an IV for something. All I know is she had leukemia and she had
to wear like a cast for a little bit.
L. I just want to be clear; it was Jackie who had leukemia?
S. Yeah, Jackie had leukemia.
19:20:22:15 – 19:21:18:15
L. We talked a little bit about you playing together when you were little. What do you remember about
playing with your sister, with both of your sisters?
S. I was probably like the older sister because I definitely bossed them around. And I definitely, like,
manipulated Jackie a lot. That’s mean to say but I definitely did. Like, if she had something that I wanted
I’d be like, oh well let’s just trade. Here, this one is better for you and that one is better for me, you
know. I did that with my younger sister too, so it wasn’t just Jackie, but I mean you know I was kind of
the leader to them a lot. I mean once my younger sister Katie got older she kind of took over but yeah,
but yeah, I mean it was fun.
19:21:18:20 – 19:21:50:10
L. And you played with kids in the neighborhood? Just a typical kind of…
S. Yeah.
L. Did you find that kids in the neighborhood were welcoming of Jackie?
S. Well it was mostly girls so yeah. We didn’t really have a lot of boys in my neighborhood. If we did they
were like younger. I think we had one boy. He was younger and he was, you know, nice. He was nice
because he was younger than us and we’d probably beat him up if he wasn’t but yeah it was fun. We
had fun.
19:21:50:20 – 19:22:03:15
L. You think it would’ve been different if there were little boys, that maybe they wouldn’t have been
accepting?
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S. Probably not because, I don’t know, boys are mean but they might’ve been. I don’t know.
19:22:05:00 – 19:22:55:05
L. Do you recall when you first became aware or conscious of the idea that Jackie had a disability?
S. It was probably like middle school-ish. I mean, I always knew she was different. My mom always told
me don’t say that “R” word or Jackie has Down syndrome or stuff like that because we would get into
arguments. Like my mom would be, like, “go clean this up” and I'm, like, “well Jackie was playing with it
too” and she’s, like, “well you just need to do it” or whatever. And I’d be, like, well why can't she do it,
or why can't she do this or why can't she do that? So it was probably like, I would say late elementary
school, early middle school and then, like, once when we would go to the boardwalk and everyone
would stare. I always wondered why but, I mean, I don’t know.
19:22:55:15 – 19:23:36:15
L. Did your parents help you make sense of that, why people were staring?
S. No, I kind of already knew. I knew she was different, but I would just stare back at them so.
L. Do you think that Jackie, herself was aware that she was different from you and your sister Katie?
S. I honestly don’t know. We would always ask her like do you know what Down syndrome is and she
would kind of be, like, “Shut up, Sam” or like “I don’t want to talk” or “No, I don’t want to talk about it”
so it was, like, I don’t know if she knew and just didn’t want to talk about it or if she didn’t really care. I
think it could be probably she just didn’t really care.
19:23:38:20 – 19:24:50:00
L. So you guys are about a year apart?
S. Mm-hmm.
L. Describe again why it was that you started school, elementary school, at the same time.
S. Oh, my mom wanted to put me in the grade, like, I started right on time and then she wanted to hold
Jackie back because she could go to school until she was 21 so she wanted to get, you know, as many
years as she could get in I guess and… or. I don’t know why she held Jackie back but she wanted us in
different grades and, unfortunately, I was really shy when I was younger and I actually found out my
mom had me tested because I was so shy that they thought maybe I had some form of autism or
something and so they held me back in first grade and then we started and Jackie, it was already time
for Jackie to start so there was really nothing, they didn’t want to hold me back again because then I
would be really old so we just started the same year.
19:24:51:05 – 19:25:16:05
L. Were you ever in the same classes in school?
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S. No. I don’t think so. In high school they were going to put us in the same homeroom but like I was like
absolutely not. I mean I feel like such a bi-atch for being like that but I just wanted to be my own person
and not… because we were always, always together so…
19:25:17:00 – 19:26:35:05
L. So yeah, so talk to me a little bit about that togetherness when you were so young in elementary
school. Did you have separate groups of friends? I know you had talked about playing a lot together with
Jackie and her friends? Did you ever have your own friends also?
S. Well in elementary school since I was so shy I didn’t really make a lot of friends. I was kind of friendly
with the boys. I was a little tomboy-ish but that got me in trouble a lot. But yes so like I was when Jackie
would have friends over I would play with all of them and that’s how I got to know like more people in
our grade. But once I entered middle school I kind of started doing my own thing. Like, I did girl scouts
and Jackie didn’t do girl scouts so I made friends through that. I did cheerleading, I mean Jackie also did
cheerleading but you know I wanted us to be on separate teams because you know I wanted to be
myself. And that was really… I mean then like middle school I kind of made different friends and stuff
like that so…
19:26:36:00 – 19:26:42:25
L. Was Jackie okay with a little bit of separation in elementary school?
S. Oh, she could have cared less.
19:26:51:25 – 19:27:34:20
L. Were you parents sensitive to the fact that there was so much overlap and that you needed some
space to be your own person?
S. I don’t… my dad probably had no idea. My mom I think was just way too sensitive to it. Like it… I … I
don’t know. She just… it was like always like a fight all the time. So I just think she was really sensitive to
the face that I wanted to do my own thing and not have Jackie there like 24/7 but…
19:27:36:20 – 19:29:05:20
L. Did your parents, Sami, talk to you as a family about Jackie’s disability?
S. All the time.
L. Can you tell me the sort of things that they would discuss with you about her disability?
S. Well when they were writing their living will, which was when I was in high school, they talked about
like how they wanted her to like… I got really upset because they didn’t want her to live with me
because I had this plan of I’m going to buy a house and then build like an addition like I don’t know,
twenty feet away or have a garage with an apartment up top where she could live or something and
that was always my plan and then when they were writing her living will they were saying well she is
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going to be doing this, this, and this. And I said “what? No she’s living with me” and then they were like
“we want her to be independent” and we want her to do this and that. So yeah they did, but I see her
differently then they see her. Like I see the things she can do and they see the things that she can't do
but they want her to do and but the things she can do, they do for her sometimes. So it’s yeah… we fight
a lot about stuff with her and what she can and can't do.
19:29:06:05 – 19:29:19:10
L. So do you remember how old were you when you sort of hatched your plan to have her 20 feet away
or in the apartment above the garage?
S. Yeah it was like high school. Right around the time they were writing their living will or whatever.
19:29:25:00 – 19:30:31:00
L. Typical of any sibling, you wanted some space from Jackie but interestingly you had this idea that you
would be always be together.
S. Together. Well a lot of kids… I mean the only time I really wanted my space was in high school just
because that’s like a really crucial time, like high school and middle school were really, like,… because
you’re finding out about yourself. You’re finding out who you want to be, what you want to do, all that
stuff and…I don’t know. A lot of kids that have a sibling with a disability don’t go to the same school so I
think it was just really hard for me to like just constantly every day see her at school, see her at home. It
was just like it never got a break away from disability. Not that I wanted, that I like needed it. Well I did
need it but, like, I thought I just wanted to be selfish a little bit and not have to worry. I mean I didn’t
have to worry about her all the time but I did. Just the way I am I guess.
19:30:33:05 – 19:32:29:15
L. You said you see what she can do and her parents, your parents see sometimes what she can't do but
what they want her to do.
S. Mm-hmm.
L. Can you give me an example? Maybe something you can see she can do and they don’t get or
something they’d like her to do that maybe she could do if she was given the parameters?
S. Well I think she took the train by herself yesterday actually, yeah and my dad was like “absolutely not,
she's not doing that,” blah, blah, blah. And my mom was all for it and I mean, I was too, but I
remember, like, when she first was learning how to take the bus I was like “she can't, no, she can't, no
she’s not taking the bus, no way” and my mom was like “yes she can”, whatever. And I mean she did it
but then there was one day where she wanted to go out and she just picked up all her stuff and left and
we had no idea where she went and the bus in our area. We live close to Chester, the bus goes to
Chester so we were like oh my god what if she doesn’t get off at the right spot and she goes into Chester
and we were all freaking out. We were all driving around, looking for her, looking for her and she was at
the mall, thank God, but it was really scary and you know, there’s sometimes, like, she’ll leave her stuff
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everywhere and you know if it’s, I could leave a pair of shoes and it’s like you need to put your stuff
away but her stuff is sprawled out all over the place. It’s like she can't, she knows sometimes she can't
clean up all her stuff. Really? Yes she can. She can clean all her stuff up, perfectly fine. She does it every
other day. She can do it today. So like that.
19:32:31:00 – 19:33:51:00
L. Did you and your sister Katie talk about Jackie’s disability?
S. We had a really rough relationship. Uh, I was really mean when I was younger and we didn’t get along
too well. Even in, like, even a little after high school, we still didn’t get along that great. But when I fight
with my… my sister Katie isn’t home a lot which I wish I was more like that but I’m a homebody. So she’s
always out so she's never really home so she doesn’t really see the same things that I see. I mean we do
agree on a lot of things, but so she… but we don’t really talk about it that much. I mean we both don’t
like the “R word” but if someone says it she doesn’t get as upset about it as I do. But there are times
where like me and my mom will fight and I’ll call her or text her and be like me and mom fought about
this, blah, blah and she says that’s ridiculous I agree with you and stuff like that so we definitely do
agree on some stuff but we just don’t really talk about it that much.
19:33:51:10 – 19:34:13:00
L. Do you think did she also have it planned for Jackie maybe living with her or was that your plan?
S. No that’s my plan. She - her and Jackie - could never live together. They’re both very unorganized and
their place would be a wreck. Clothes would be everywhere. They would probably fight a lot too.
CHAPTER FOUR: FAMILY INVOLVEMENT IN DISABILITY ORGANIZATIONS, MIDDLE SCHOOL
EXPERIENCES
19:34:14:10 – 19:35:32:05
L. So as best as you can recall, were your parents very involved with this extended disability community,
when you all were growing up?
S. Like, what…
L. Did they have sort of places to go for information or resources or to meet other parents?
S. Mm-hmm. I think the Down syndrome Interest Group of Delaware County. I remember that when I
was very young, so I don’t know if it started years before Jackie was born or around the same time as
Jackie was born, because I just remember there was always parties we would go to and I could meet
siblings of or kids that had other siblings that didn’t have a disability so that was nice but it kind of, like,
grew. I mean like we still saw them when I was like in middle school and everything but it was a lot
different because you’re middle school so you’re not like that’s cool. You know what I mean? Like you
kind of think that’s lame I don’t want to go anymore and stuff like that but yeah they always had, they’re
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friendly with a lot of people so I mean that’s probably one of their, a lot of their best friends are people
who have kids with Down syndrome.
19:35:33:00 – 19:36:22:05
L. And you have talked about; in fact there was a photo in your album, of you swimming with Jackie at
the Unified Games for Special Olympics and things like that. Did those experiences; were they generally
good for you when you were growing up?
S. Oh, yeah, I loved it, I loved it because you got to meet so many people. I mean even now I’m still
meeting new people by going to… we go to a sports camp every year but it’s not, like, unified. I just go to
be a coach but when I was younger it was fun because like I got to win a medal, and it was swimming,
so, like, I like to swim so that was fun and we go to go to different places and compete and I don’t know.
It was a lot of fun and just always meeting people was fun too.
19:36:50:25 – 19:38:56:20
L. Can you tell me a little bit about how the experience changed going from elementary school to middle
school? What was the sort of first indicator that it was different for you?
S. Well I guess we had two separate elementary schools so I kind of had a feeling that it was going to be
rough just because everyone at our elementary school knew Jackie and knew who she was and knew
what to expect from her and all that stuff but with the kids from the other elementary schools they
didn’t really know who she was and what Down Syndrome was or anything like that so it was like she
was an easy target. And I kind of was too because I was very sensitive and so like you know I would see
different things in the hallways and things like that. We also had a young man who had cerebral palsy in
our school but he was in, and he went to Scenic as well so but he was a guy and like he played sports
and stuff so and he like, I feel like Jackie was a little more sheltered. I think me and Katie were sheltered
as well but he like would like curse and stuff so like kids would think he was cool and like Jackie didn’t
really curse. Not that cursing when you’re in elementary school is cool but to other kids it is but so like I
don’t know. I feel like kids kind of accepted him more just because he was like a boy and he would kind
of tell you off whereas Jackie would just kind of not really like she just, you could tell she was different. I
mean the young man like used a walker and didn’t really talk much but he had like a lot of friends that
were I guess popular and Jackie not so much. So I really saw a difference there and just the way people
treated me, kind of too.
19:38:57:15 – 19:40:34:20
L. The way they treated you because you were Jackie’s sister?
S. Yeah, because I was Jackie’s sister.
L. Can you give me an example of that Sami?
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S. Well I remember one year - it was the summer of 7th grade - and uh I was going to my friend’s house
and back then they had AOL instant messenger and we were… it was like me and three other girls and
we were just like… we were on there just goofing off, whatever and then one of these boys from our
grade like messaged us and was like “hey, who is this?” And I was, like, and all the girls said I was, “I
don’t want to say it’s me, I don’t want to say it’s me” and I was, like, “just say it’s me, who cares,
whatever” and then they said it was me and then they just started saying these really horrible things and
they were just really mean. They told me my sister was fat and retarded. It was just really hurtful. I
would have never said that to anybody about their sibling. They told me, like, they told me I should, like,
they just said really mean things.
19:40:52:25 – 19:41:52:20
L. Sami, you’ve been describing yourself throughout our conversation as a shy person so what kind of
affect did that kind of behavior, hearing negative things about your sister; have on you as a person?
S. I was just, like, “oh my God, I don’t want to be seen with her”. Like, I don’t want people to know she’s
my sister. I was… and I hate that I felt that way about my sister. It was just really hard. I think uh it was
just hard for me to accept that that’s how she was. Like I was worried about everyone else accepting her
I didn’t accept her so I like I think that’s like the biggest thing.
19:41:57:15 – 19:42:42:15
L. Did it affect your relationship with your own family, with your parents, with Katie as well, all of it?
S. Definitely, because I was mean to Katie too. I was just… I just didn’t want to be like… but everyone’s
family is embarrassing in their own way, you know. It’s a lot different now, just because I’m not always
with Jackie. I’m like I can do my own thing and it’s just a lot easier that way.
19:42:46:00 – 19:46:06:20
L. So you talked about having the opportunity to meet other siblings sometimes through the activities
that your parents and Jackie were involved with. You sort of all went as a family with some different
groups. It does seem like your experience was a little bit unique.
S. Mm-hmm.
L. Just because of your school experience. Because of all of the together time that you and Jackie had so
I’m curious about meeting other siblings. Was that a good thing for you? Did you feel that you had
things in common with other siblings of people with disabilities?
S. Yes and no because, like I said, a lot of people didn’t go to the same school as their sibling. A lot of
kids went to like private or Catholic schools and people with disabilities aren’t accepted there –
surprisingly- and so their school experience was definitely different from mine. But like I said we go to a
summer camp every year and uh I can remember one year we went and I’m friendly with this one girl
who has her fraternal twin brother has Down syndrome so we went and she, one of the old camper, like
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an old camper from way long ago was there and she was asking this girl about her sibling, like, why she
goes to camp, how she got involved with it, blah, blah and the girl was like “oh my twin brother has
Down syndrome” and the lady was like “really, how does that work?” And she was kind of, like, “what
do you mean how does that work? He’s, like, my fraternal brother and he has Down syndrome.” What’s
there to work, you know? So we get, we share the commonality of getting annoyed by what we think
are kind of like stupid questions but we know that people who don’t have someone with a disability in
their family don’t understand that but it’s also kind of like common sense. Like we’ve had people say,
like, “oh can people with Down syndrome drink?” And we’re, like, “if they’re 21, yes they can.” Like, I
remember one time my friend came over and my parents had gone out and I was just staying home until
you know before about an hour or so before they were coming home and um he came over and was like
as we were leaving, Jackie and her friend were watching TV and coloring or whatever and as we were
leaving he said to me, “Can people with Down syndrome stay home by themselves?” And I was, like,
“Can you stay home by yourself?” Like it was, like stuff like that we share and so it’s nice to have like
other people there to hear their experiences with stuff. I know one girl told me that her brother’s
learning how to drive and he has autism. Yeah so it’s like people with autism can drive, you know. They
have a will, there's a way, you know. So it’s nice to have that like connection of knowing that your sibling
can do whatever you do. And it’s nice to share like those funny stories with people too and like they’ll
get them, you know? So…
CHAPTER FIVE: HIGH SCHOOL EXPERIENCE, COLLEGE
19:46:21:05 – 19:47:25:20
L. Sami, by the time you and Jackie went to high school. More kids were being included in regular
classrooms because there was just more of a presence of kids in school because because they’re being
diverted from institutions, due to the closures of institutions like Pennhurst. There were certainly better
education laws. So in high school as the environment better for kids with disabilities?
S. Definitely, because kids are kind of getting older, a little more mature. I mean you still have those
immature d-bags that are going to say things but there are a lot of people that wanted to like work with
people with disabilities. Like I know Katie helped out in the special needs class and like they were
always, I saw like a lot more people going in there and talking about it and you know just being more
friendly, being more open and understanding of people with disabilities.
19:47:25:25 – 19:47:37:20
L. And how did that change your experience of school?
S. I mean it got a little better. I was still kind of internalizing a lot of things but it did get better.
19:47:48:15 – 19:48:36:00
L. What was your experience of college like?
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S. I loved it. I mean I went to community college first so that kind of sucked because I was with the same
people I had just graduated with, so it was kind of like I don’t want to see you anymore. I just saw you
like least year but it was nice to start off at community college because I got to understand how college
works and then coming to Temple it just like it was totally different. I mean my first couple of years I
kind of hated it because I wasn’t happy in the program I was in but now that I’m in recreational therapy
I’m just… I feel like I am who I was trying to be for so long, so that’s nice.
19:48:37:10 – 19:49:53:10
L. You were here at Temple first before Jackie enrolled in the Institute on Disabilities’ Academy for Adult
learning. Did you worry that you would lose some of that individuality when she was here on campus?
S. No, not really because I never really saw her. I mean I would have to bring her in in the mornings
which didn’t really bother me because as soon as we got here she like got out of the car and left. Like
she didn’t even want to be associated with me, so she was off doing her own thing so that was nice and I
mean, I was a little worried because when I was in the education program, I was scheduled to graduate
the same year as Jackie was from the Institute so that kind of annoyed me because it was like, I felt like
mine was like bigger than hers but I knew hers were be bigger than mine just because she has Down
syndrome and I don’t. But I mean both are important but I just felt like hers would have been more
important than me but it didn’t work out that way anyways, so I didn’t have to worry about it.
19:49:54:15 – 19:51:03:00
L. So when you start new relationships, when do you tell people about Jackie, or do you tell people
about Jackie?
S. It depends. Sometimes like I don’t come out and I’m like hey I’m Samantha and I have a sister with
Down syndrome but with the people that I meet in the program I usually talk about it because I talk
about Special Olympics a lot because it’s a really good way to volunteer and to get some experience with
people with disabilities and it’s a lot of fun and you'll get multiple boyfriends after Monday which is
awesome. But with guys, I don’t really tell them because I feel like they’ll get scared unless they have a
sibling with a disability or a relative with a disability and they tell me first or they say the “R word”. Then
I’m like, “ yo, you’re cute and I have a sister with a disability, so don’t say that word”.
19:51:03:10 – 19:51:51:00
L. Have you ever ended a relationship because of the way someone treated your sister?
S. No, because everyone’s always been nice to her. Sometimes I feel like some people patronize her
which kind of irritates me. But no, I never - like, I usually cut them off if they continuously say the “R”
word and I’ve told them multiple times not to say it because that just, I mean obviously you don’t
respect me or my wishes so that’s usually how it ends.
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CHAPTER SIX: ONGOING SUPPORT FOR JACKIE, PERSONAL AMBITIONS
19:51:52:20 – 19:52:25:05
L. So do you and your parents, talk about the supports that Jackie will need if one day your parents
aren’t able to support Jackie?
S. Not really. I mean they, I think, they have a plan for her that I don’t know. Like I said, I’ve always
wanted her to live with me but I mean even if they didn’t have anything set up I would take care of her
and I wouldn’t mind because I know if it was me I would want her to take care of me if she could.
19:52:27:00 – 19:52:41:00
L. Do you think has there been any kind of expectation on your parent’s part that you would care for
Jackie if they could not?
S. That they would expect me to take care of her? I don’t think so. I don’t think they want me to.
19:52:45:00 – 19:53:19:00
L. Do you feel prepared yourself to take on Jackie’s support and advocacy needs if your parents weren’t
able to do that.
S. Definitely. I mean maybe not with, like, money and stuff because I feel like that’s just the headache
and I wouldn’t want to deal with it, no offence, but as for advocating, absolutely. I could definitely be
her voice.
L. Do you feel knowledgeable enough about the service system and how that works?
S. Mm-hmm.
19:53:51:05 – 19:54:19:10
L. Should there be, or are their supports for siblings to help them learn how to navigate the system on
behalf of their siblings?
S. I don’t think there are. I mean I think there might be some kind of trainings but I don’t think it’s that, I
don’t think it’s like if you’re a sibling here’s how to, like, help, you know? I think it’s, like, what the, how
the Institute has those conferences and stuff. But if you don’t know about it then how would you know.
19:54:43:10 – 19:56:10:15
L. I was reading one sibling who described her experience as a sibling as sort of living in two worlds…
S. Mm-hmm.
L. …and I wonder if that statement resonates with you in any way?
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S. Definitely.
L. How so?
S. Well there’s my world and then there’s, like, Jackie’s world. So it’s kind of, like, you know I get to live
and be me, and then I live and help Jackie with all her stuff and well it’s kind of like maybe not Jackie’s
world but the disability world. So I feel like I do a lot in that world and only a small part in like my own
world. But yeah it’s definitely different. I try to merge the two but there are a lot of things I like to do
that she doesn’t like to do or that you know some people wouldn’t want her to do. Like I like to go to the
bars on the weekends and I don’t know if she would want to come to the bar with me. I mean she likes
to drink Bud Light, you know, but I don’t know if she would want to do that every weekend. Maybe not
every weekend, but every once in a while. I sound like an alcoholic, but maybe once in a while. So I think
there’s like she’s more sheltered in her world than I am in mine.
19:56:13:05 – 19:57:17:05
L. Do you ever wonder what it would be like to live your life free of the responsibility of caring for Jackie
or worrying about Jackie?
S. Mm-hmm. I mean I, yeah. Katie, like I wonder what it would be like to be like Katie. Not that she, this
is going to make her sound bad but she is just very carefree. She doesn’t worry about anything and just
goes and does whatever she wants to do and I’m the worry wart. I worry about everything. Whether it
includes me or not I just worry constantly. So yeah I would like to know what that’s like. But I mean I
also I don’t know what I would do if I didn’t worry about taking care of Jackie, you know? Like I don’t
know. I like that-- I like taking care of people so I like that. I would have to, not have to, but possibly
have to take care of Jackie.
19:57:44:00 – 20:00:13:16
L. What do you want for your own future either professionally or personally?
S. Well, my dream job professionally would be to open up a community center up in my area. I’m from
Delaware County and during my - at my volunteer, I had to volunteer here at Temple. Well not here at
Temple but for classes at Temple and I went to out to the Northeast, it’s called NORCOM Community
Center and they have a day program there for people with developmental disabilities and I just
absolutely loved it. I thought it was like the greatest idea ever. Every like the every all the adults that
were involved with it seemed to be having a really great time. It was kind of like school because when
people with disabilities turn 21, like no more school for them and it’s kind of like what now, you know?
We don’t have a job set up what are we going to do and I know that like when Jackie is not at work or at
Scenic Hills volunteering she is really bored. She just sits in front of the TV and I feel like a lot of people
with disabilities are overweight and I want to like kind of end that and you know like start… if I opened
up my own community center, have like nutrition classes along with like they had music classes and
computer classes and like we had like one day I was there we did a newspaper search where they had to
find specific articles which I thought was really cool because it’s like learning what we take for granted
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every day and like putting it into like uh a way they can understand it and like, what’s the word I’m
looking for? And do it in their own way, you know? Like she, Jackie loves to sing so it’d be awesome for
her to take a music class and learn how to sing better or learn how to read music or whatever she
wanted to do, play the piano and I just thought that what they had there was really great. It was like
nice to, it was like kind of an after high school kind of place that got them to socialize but also they were
able to learn and it integrated the community too because there was a gym so people could come and
do gym, like go to the gym and work out and take classes.
20:00:13:18 – 20:00:49:15
L. So people without disabilities as well?
S. Yeah, definitely. I feel like if I did open a community center I could get kids from high school to come
in and volunteer because I know kids have to do like senior projects and I think they started doing
volunteering a lot more so they could come in and volunteer and it would also help educate younger
kids about people with disabilities and just open up everyone’s eyes to see that everyone is the same
and not, no one is, I mean no one is normal.
20:01:08:10 – 20:01:38:20
L. So Sami what do you think are people’s greatest misconceptions about people with Down syndrome?
S. That they’re dumb, that they’re all brothers and sisters, that they’re all related somehow. I just think
that people really underestimate people with Down syndrome. I know I have before, and I’ve been
shown that you should never underestimate someone.
20:01:41:20 – 20:02:08:25
L. So I put you on the spot a little bit because I kind of asked you before in front of Jackie what you liked
about her but I’m wondering really if you can reflect on a little bit on what she really means to you.
S. She means a lot. I don’t know where I’d be without her or who I would be.
END
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