Interview with J Frank Brown Interviewer: Toby Thompson JFB I think there are lots of interesting things to dialogue around the broad topic of business in society, corporate social responsibility, but really importantly the interface between business schools and businesses. And one of my very strong views, and it came out a little bit in discussions that we have had, is that researchers on the academic side are not always prepared effectively to deal with businesses. We talk about things like access. Well one of the reasons that researchers don’t get the access that they should is that they are not really tightly connected to business and going in. One of the things that I try to do because of my career in business, is I try to really set the table for people to get access to the right organisations, to the right level of people in those organisations and be a little bit better prepared with the topics, the conversations, the issues and certainly a good understanding of what the person they are talking with is experiencing – what they job is, what their problems are, etc. And my very, very strong view is that business schools can be much more effective if we work much more closely with business and if we bring in more business practitioners to help us bridge that gap between academia and business. That is my number one. I have called it in various forums becoming more relevant. Another one I like to use is the concept of demystifying research. When I started at INSEAD it was fascinating because I would go into a faculty member and I would say tell me about your research. And they would take a step back and they would look at me. And I would say no, no really – what are you doing? And I realise that their reluctance had a couple of parts: one, they were saying you wouldn’t understand, you are just a business person – I am an academic. But the other thing that they were saying was if you could understand, then it wouldn’t be worth my while to do it because I am looking for the Holy Grail. And so what we have to do – the other thing that we have to do in addition to getting closer to business – part of the output of that is our research should become more relevant and more usable. That doesn’t mean that A journals go away, that means that A journals are quickly followed by usable publications for everyday business. TT The counter to that is academics saying that education is for life, not for livelihood, and that there is a deeper substrata which is not contaminated by corporatism, neo‐liberalism and capitalism. How do you answer that? JFB Well there is an interesting juxta‐position between saying education is for life, not for livelihood because I would argue that business, when you really talk about sustainability at the end of the day, business is for life as well. Organisations either are, need to be, or are moving in the direction J Frank Brown
of really focusing on being sustainable, creating enduring enterprises. Nobody wants to, as a CEO, I don’t think, nobody wants to preside over something that is not going to be here for the next generation. So I think there is actually a closer moving together between the open ended academic pursuit of the meaning of life – if you will – and business as a sustainable enterprise going forward. It’s interesting because have these debates all the time. At INSEAD my finance faculty is up in arms over what they call my adoration of the social innovation centre. And what I say to the finance faculty is go back to your text book. What does shareholder value really mean? It’s the remnant, it’s what is left. If you don’t focus on the next generation and more, what the hell is going to be left? What really is shareholder value. It is not what your shares are worth today based upon this quarter’s earnings. And I think the other thing that we need to do with business, but also within academia is really foment that debate – get all the issues on the table because everyone has got perspectives. We need to make sure that the people that are focused on CSR aren’t the do‐gooders. CSR has a profit motive. All business has a profit motive, so there is no sustainability without profitability. Once you get beyond that concept in the debate and the discussion, you then talk about how to work together. And I am talking about even the finance department and the ethics department, for example. TT So in a sense, you are a great translator, you are a kind of coach and in military/media metaphor you are embedding your faculty inside the corporation? JFB Yes, interesting. Embedding, I wouldn’t go so far because when you embed faculty inside a company, companies sort of crunch. Space issues, attention spans, etc., etc. What you really want is access at the right time and the right place. I had this discussion with a CEO last week and I said we don’t want to live with you. We would like to communicate. We can do a lot of that remotely. I can find out what is going on with the CEO on my Blackberry, five minutes a day. No problem. And then maybe we check in every month and just sort of review some key issues, some key segments. And from there you either write the case, or you do the research etc. So I don’t think we have to be in your face, but I think we have to have the relationship that creates trust and the ability to access in an unobtrusive way. TT So there is a new paradigm of CSR research? JFB I hope, but I think that the paradigm that I am talking about is a much, much closer relationship between businesses, business people, academia which builds the trust. Page 2
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TT How do you incentivise that? JFB Oh, with faculty, it’s easy to incentivise. The faculty are incentivised by interesting stuff. What turns on a faculty member is actually having access to a CEO. I brought Carlos Gorn to campus and people were amazed. Not because I had brought Carlos Gorn to the campus, but because Carlos Gorn was willing to engage. Any time you see, and it’s not the star power, it’s when people realise that they are just human beings and they have similar interests to you. They actually are interested in what you are doing and how it might help them. That is another thing. The CEO that I was talking to last week said to me, he said I don’t want you to document me just – he said I want access to your thinking. I want to know what you guys think about what I am doing. That will be useful to me. That is part of the equation. And when faculty hear that, they love it, they love it. My job is to make sure that there is the right interpretation. Interpretation of the body language or sign language, and interpretation of the point from an academic perspective to the point from a business perspective and make sure that it works. TT Finally, one last thing, if you were talking to an MBA now, what words of advice would you have concerning CSR? JFB I think from the perspective of an MBA today, and I think actually the MBAs that I know are pushing us to do things in the CSR space, which is a good thing. But I think I go back to one of the things that I always, always say and that is there is no sustainability without profitability. That is point number one. Point number two: I think that this generation and the generation to follow, regardless of what you believe, regardless of what you believe about global warming, regardless of what you believe about the development of the developing world, regardless of what you believe about your own product and your own company and your own people, these issues are absolutely critical to your success in business, to your ability to dialogue within your peer group, as well as with outsiders, as well as with academia, with NGOs, with government etc. And all of those groups are critically important to your success, whether you are a consultant, whether you are a corporate executive, whether you are a financial engineer, whether you are an investment banker – I don’t care what you do, this is critical for your understanding and for your development as a professional. Page 3