Interview: Professor Andrew Kakabadse
Bilderberg People
Steve Macaulay
Hello, I am Steve Macaulay and I am interviewing Professor
Andrew Kakabadse about his book, Bilderberg People, that he cowrote with Ian Richardson and Nada Kakabadse.
Now Andrew, what is Bilderberg and who are Bilderberg people?
Andrew Kakabadse
Bilderberg is a meeting; in fact it is a summit. It is really an annual
meeting and the very first Bilderberg meeting was held at the
Bilderberg Hotel in Europe after the Second World War which
brought together the Allies and the Americans to try to prevent any
further catastrophes, such as the Second World War from reoccurring and also to create wealth.
So it really is a network; it is a global network with a strong transAtlantic flavour. And the Bilderberg People are essentially those
people that are invited to attend the annual meeting.
Steve Macaulay
And they are combined politicians, business people, trade unions –
who are they?
Andrew Kakabadse
That is a very interesting question. One of the major accusations
against the Bilderberg People is really that it is Right Wing,
conspiratorial attempt to create a one-world governance. And, in
fact, the conspiracy theories could go haywire, because on the
airline that you may recall, the North Korean airline that was shot
down by the Soviets, one of the critical people – a senator in the US
– was on the aeroplane and he was shot down; and he said the
Bilderbergs were trying to create a one-world dictatorship along
Anglo American lines.
So, what you have really got here is on the one hand a view that
this is a collection of right wingers – what we discovered in the
research however, is that this is an odd collection of people from all
over the place, who for whatever reason have been brought
together to try to create an understanding. So you do have
politicians, you do have people from finance, you do have people
from business, you have trade unionists, you have people from
non-governmental organisations (NGOs). And the attempt is to
really create a debate and an understanding of different
viewpoints.
Steve Macaulay
Now, it could be argued in a world of tweets, of open government,
of Wiki leaks and so on, that really this is counter the way the world
is going.
Andrew Kakabadse
Andrew Kakabadse
It is not, even with tweets and Wiki leaks and all that. What you are
having is decisions brought to the surface; what you do not have
are the conversations behind the scenes that create a way of
thinking. And that, in one sense, is the strength of the Bilderbergs,
and that is also their weakness.
If you attend a doctoral programme as a doctoral student in any of
the world’s outstanding universities, the outstanding ones always
start with a question and that is what is your ontology? In other
words, how do you see the world around you? And in many ways
for a doctoral candidate to understand where they are coming from
is going to be the prime reason as to whether they are going to be
successful. Ironically, that is exactly the question that needs to be
asked of the Bilderbergs.
True, they attract people of all sorts of different backgrounds – the
question is, are these people of a similar mindset? And is this the
sort of Anglo American shareholder value mindset? And is the
mindset an attempt to create a way of thinking across the world –
not necessarily a structure, but a way of thinking? And we had to
conclude, it is.
Now this is done behind closed doors, but let me tell you in
Whitehall there is a lot of behind closed doors conversations; in fact
now with greater public and media accountability there are fewer
and fewer decisions that ministers put their name to. It is just a
conversation. So right across the board, the fact that you have
behind the door conversations, it applies to boards, it applies to
governments, it applies to top teams.
Steve Macaulay
One of the things that I think I understood from your book was the
feeling that if you have got cross national decisions that need to be
taken, then this is an ideal way of building collaboration and
arriving at that common understanding; is that so?
Andrew Kakabadse
It is so, to an extent. The fact that you would have the world’s
elites from different backgrounds – by the way, I didn’t even
mention culture and media; so you do get people from the press,
from television attending as well as all the others. It is good that
people who are at the top of their professions to meet. And it is
good that issues get sorted out and debated; and it is good for
everyone that we have a much better understanding of the
differences between us.
The concern that you have is whether we are stumbling towards a
way of operating and I think that is one of the questions that needs
to be raised from the research of the Bilderbergers. Certainly in
my view, looking back on the research programme, is that after a
number of conversations, certain themes do emerge and they are
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Andrew Kakabadse
in favour of the Anglo American shareholder value philosophy –
with its good and bad points. Now the accusation that is thrown
against the Bilderbergs is that they are trying to create world
government; well let me assure you, we are going to have world
government, because what we have now is global finance and all
the attempts in the world to try and create some sort of global
standard will never work. Please tell me, why should the Russians
or the Chinese follow a British or American lead on global
standards? Why should the Indians and Brazilians follow a Chinese
lead on global standards?
So the real governance tends to be government and we are going to
progress towards some sort of world structured government. The
question is not what is it structure, but what is its philosophy? And
the Bilderbergs seem to be pushing more the Anglo American
philosophy; and now with the Chinese, the Indians and the
Brazilians, the Russians on the world scene, you can well see a
number of other global networks with a contrasting philosophy.
And that is where we are at; yes, on the one hand it is good that we
have people from different backgrounds and are leaders in their
own right coming together to understand. The question is, are
they pushing in a direction that we want?
So what you have with the Bilderbergs is the question of smart
power, it is not hard power – military, or soft power – negotiation.
It is creating a way of thinking where you don’t even know what is a
smart question to ask to counter that effect - and that is where we
are at right now. We are at the point of smart power, slowly
seeping through the world without having a smart civilian
countering that.
Steve Macaulay
So the world is increasingly moving in the direction of networks, of
power at the top transcending borders. Do you see then in say ten
years’ time, twenty years’ time, that we will see emerging some
kind of structured elite?
Andrew Kakabadse
It will and this is nothing new – the Romans used this, the Greeks
used this, the Egyptians used this. So in civilisations which had
nowhere near our technology for communication, the idea that
elites got together and the elite banding was as much the force that
kept that whole empire together is true. Don’t forget Rome was a
city; the number of Roman soldiers who were Roman was minimal.
The number of Roman soldiers who were anything from Egyptian,
Spanish to Gauls French was maximum. So we will always have
elite networks and the shape and nature and power of those elite
networks as much prevents wars, as creates tension.
So yes, we are likely to have some form of world governance which
will probably emerge as a world government; what is not clear is
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Andrew Kakabadse
whose philosophy, because there is great criticism of the
shareholder value philosophy and in fact the way we are drifting.
And the poverty that is being created, and the income divides that
exists, there is a far better case for having socialised capital – in
other words, a far better relationship between government, the
citizen and capital – than shareholder value capital which is there to
look after the shareholders.
Steve Macaulay
Andrew, thank you very much, it is a fascinating insight into a very
important topic.
Andrew Kakabadse
Thank you.
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