TRANSCRIPT OF TAPED INTERVIEW
with
Ms JOANNA LIDDLE
Key:
TK
HN
JL
Tim KELLY
Hilary NESI
Joanna LIDDLE
HN
O.K. Right, ready? What do you think the purpose of a seminar is?
JL
Well, I see the purpose as being, first of all to enable the students to talk
about some of the issues to rehearse the debate; to express their ideas.
And, I see it really as being when we give a lecture, what I would be
doing would be to set out the different ways of looking at an issue,
whereas a seminar would be more focused on a particular kind of
question. And I would expect the students to be giving presentations,
talking themselves, listening to other students, rather than listening to
what the tutor is saying. So it’s really an opportunity to debate and try out
ideas, try out arguments, argue with one another. I see it as very studentcentred, participative.
HN
What kind of preparation would you expect a student to do before they
attended a seminar?
JL
I would expect them to do the essential reading, and if possible, I would
like them to do a bit more than that. I’d like them to - not just to have
read, but to have processed what they’ve read. So I’d like them to have
taken notes and to have thought about it, and to begin to think what their
position on these arguments is. So I want them to - not just accept what
they are reading - but to think about the different readings. They always
have - I mean all of us don’t agree with each other, and I want them to
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think about the different arguments, and process them through their
brains, and come to a view on what their position is and be able to argue
it. That’s what I see the seminar as doing. So the preparation is
absolutely crucial - to be able to have a conversation and a discussion
about assessive literature.
HN
Does argument become quite heated in the seminar, then?
JL
Well, no, it doesn’t actually! I think it would be better if it did become
more heated! - Because when there’s passion there - you know, people
tend to explore the arguments further. But also, I think there are
disadvantages about heated argument, because people can become very
entrenched in particular positions, and it’s important that students keep an
open mind, so that they are exploring new positions - not just justifying
what they’ve always thought. So I’d like them - I want them to be openminded and to debate in a way that allows them to explore new ideas.
HN
What advice would you give to a student who was very shy? - or whose
first language wasn’t English? - and had difficulty taking part in that
conversation?
JL
Well, there’s various things I do for that. One of the things is I - specially
towards the beginning of the year - but sometimes I do it all through - I
ask students to give presentations and prepare for presentations in groups,
so that - I mean, I try to create an atmosphere of participation. - the idea
that everybody can and should participate. BUT I don’t want to put
people who have never done that before, or shy people on the spot. I
would never - you know - direct a question towards somebody and make
them answer it - especially if I knew I didn’t think they would like to be
put on the spot in that way. So one thing I do is to enable them to practice
through group presentations, so that they perhaps have to do something
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very small in the beginning, and they can build up their confidence in
doing it.
Another thing - well, part of that really - is the fact that they can prepare
what they are going to do. And I wouldn’t expect them to make a
presentation from - from nothing, you know. I wouldn’t expect that - they
could use their notes, especially in the beginning. And I try to get them to
become less dependent on notes as the time goes on. So it’s a gradual
process.
And the other thing I do with someone who is really very nervous about
speaking is - or who has difficulty in speaking because of language - is to
suggest that they think of, they actually do the preparation, but that they
think of what they want to say in the class. And it’s often hard for
students whose English isn’t, you know, the same as the others, to break
in. So I ask them to think about what contribution they want to make and
to tell me about it before, and then I’ll give an opportunity for them to
make it. So I’ll actually open the discussion to them, and say, “Would
you like to say something?” or “What did you want to say?” - so that it
gives them an opportunity and they don’t have to break in, and they’ve
prepared something, and they can actually contribute in that way.
The other thing I do is to have small group discussions in the class,
without me actually supervising it. So I will break them into small
groups, and they can have three or four students discussing either the
same topic at the same time, amongst themselves. So they are not doing it
in a big group. They start off kind of rehearsing the debates in small
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groups, and THEN talking to the whole group. So there’s lots of different
ways of enabling that to happen really.
HN
M’m. How many people are in a seminar group typically?
JL
Well, it varies. It’s around - it’s usually around 15 or something like that.
HN
M’m. Is student performance assessed? - either formally or informally in
seminars?
JL
We don’t do that in this department. I sometimes think we should. But
we never have done it. I have mixed feelings about it. I think it could
probably be really intimating. But on the other hand it - it legitimises it in
a way. If people are getting assessed on it then they can see that this is an
important skill that they need to learn. But I think it can also be quite quite intimidating for the quiet ones.
HN
You mentioned that you encouraged students to come to you before the
seminar, to talk about something that they are going to say in the seminar.
Is that a tutorial? - is that what you would call a tutorial?
JL
No. We don’t have tutorials as such. But - and I wouldn’t do that on a
regular basis - only if there was someone who found it particularly
difficult to speak in class. Then I would talk to them on a one-to-one
basis, and make these kinds of suggestions for how they might contribute
- because I do think it’s important that everybody does contribute.
HN
M’m. So you have lectures, seminars. Are those the two main methods
of teaching then?
JL
Yes. Yes.
HN
There’s no smaller group?
JL
Well, we also have ….. No, there’s no small group.
HN
M’m.
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JL
We also do - one of the courses that we run is case study analysis, which
is slightly different from seminars. It’s run in a similar way, but it’s
actually looking at a practical problem, so it’s using conceptual
frameworks and applying them to a particular development problem in
our case.
HN
M’m.
JL
So that’s run slightly differently, but again it would be - we’d be asking
students to do the preparation, to perhaps discuss things in their small
groups out of the class. Then come to the class, talk in their small groups,
give presentations to the whole class, and then bring all that together at
the end. So that’s a slightly different formula - but -
HN
Yeah. So I’m not sure of the difference between a seminar and a case
study analysis.
JL
Well, it’s simply that the case study analysis is more focused on a
practical problem, whereas as seminar discussion is more wide-ranging
and free. I mean it can go in lots of different places, whereas the case
study analysis is looking at a particular problem and so has, you know,
some fixed questions that have to be answered.
HN
I see. So in a seminar it will usually be based around a set reading, or a
selection of readings?
JL
Yes. A set of readings and probably a set of questions, but it’s not quite
so - it can range more widely than the case study, I think, because because we’re looking at an actual development project, or particular
development problem.
HN
So a case study analysis will present - you will present the students before
the case study analysis a particular, real case study?
JL
Yes. They’ll have to read that and prepare on it.
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HN
M’m. And what will these case studies be about?
JL
Well, the course is called “Gender Analysis and Development Practice”,
so the case studies are about gender and development projects.
HN
M’m.
JL
- of various kinds. You know, and what the problems are. What things
went right, what things went wrong. Why? How to understand it. What
to do about it. All those kinds of questions.
HN
And students’ assessed writing - will that draw on discussion in the case
study analysis, or the seminar?
JL
Yes, yes. It will.
HN
And also on lecture?
JL
Yes.
HN
Right.
JL
Yes, on all those things.
HN
O.K. Have you got any particular comments to make about the
contribution of international students in seminars?
JL
Well yes. I mean I just think they’re - particularly in a course like ours,
which is called “Gender and International Development” they are
absolutely invaluable - because what we have in our classes is a wide
range of different experiences - from students from many different diverse
international backgrounds. So it’s an excellent basis for the kind of
course that we’re running. And it’s not just in terms of the content of
their experiences that they are bringing to the classroom. It’s also in
terms of learning how to operate and work effectively in that kind of
grouping. And that’s extremely valuable for everybody.
HN
So you like the fact that they may approach a problem differently?
JL
Yes, absolutely.
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HN
- from the British student?
JL
M’m. Clearly valuable.
HN
And they might have different values and different attitudes?
JL
Yes, definitely. I mean, it’s not always easy, but … (laughs).
TK
You know one of the things that I noticed about your seminar is that, I
mean the one that I failed -
JL
M’m?
TK
I mean there was, I think, one English student, and some students from
Africa, some students from India, from Japan, from Burma - I mean it was
the most diverse range of students I have seen in Warwick.
JL
Oh really?
TK
Apart from maybe an engineering group once. But I felt as an observer
that there was an odd - the cultural difference was so vast that there were
kind of opportunities for misunderstandings. I mean - do you think
having, you know, a wide range of international students from different
cultures makes, you know, the seminar viable?
JL
When you say “misunderstanding” - do you - are you talking about
misunderstanding the point of an argument? - Or are you talking in terms
of the way people are relating together?
TK
Perhaps even greater than that in a sense that we bring all the cultural
concepts to - and debates as well - you know we have our own ideas. But
the African perspective, for example, on - you know - on internationalism
is going to be very different from, you know, the British pre-conception.
And all these different pre-conceptions are - I could see them all kind of
operating there, but …
JL
Right?
TK
But what can you do about this?
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JL
Well, there is something we try to do. Whether it’s successful or not I’m
not quite sure. It’s - it is a difficult problem. There are no easy answers
to it. But we do something at the start of our year which we call
“Handling Difference in the classroom” and it’s - it’s a kind of induction
programme, which is trying to get the students - trying to get the students
first of all to think about some of the problems of how seminars operate.
The inter-actional problems. The social inter-action. And what certain
kinds of behaviours and certain ways of speaking and talking mean - the
kind of social meanings that they have - more than just at a superficial
level. And - we try to get people to understand. I’m not being very
articulate in this bit! - But it’s really trying to do two things. First of all
it’s trying to challenge’s people pre-conceptions about the meanings of
certain ways of behaving - cultural meanings. And secondly it’s trying to
get them to look at those meanings in themselves, and begin to change
them in a way that allows people to be able to talk and interact and argue
and have disagreements and debates, without offending other people. So
it’s actually quite a - it’s quite a difficult process, and we’ve been doing it
for some years. But we think that it does have some effect. I mean it
doesn’t solve everything. But it makes people more aware. It’s partly an
awareness consciousness raising exercise. And it’s partly enabling people
to think about how they operate in the classroom - what kind of effects
that has on other people. And how they can operate together so that
groups work together effectively. So it’s - I mean it moves from kind of
education and consciousness raising to making - trying to make seminars
work effectively.
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HN
M’m. So one of the purposes of the seminar, you would say, is not only
to learn the subject, but it’s also designed so that students can learn the
skills of inter-acting -
JL
Yes, and that is one of our explicit objectives in the programme.
HN
I see. Yes.
JL
I’m not saying that we do it. I mean, you know - it doesn’t always work.
But we are trying to do that, and -
HN
M’m. So it’s a major learning outcome?
JL
Yes, it is. Yes.
TK
Are you - ? Oh what am I trying to say now? I’m just a bit - this is all
very interesting, and I’m just trying to get where it’s pointing, because,
you know, yours was such an international class. If a student has a very
different perspective - whether it be cultural or personal to other students,
or groups of students in the class, should they express that? Could you
give an answer to that question as if I hadn’t asked the question?
HN
Shall I ask it again?
TK
Perhaps you should.
HN
O.K. What happens? - I’ll probably say, no, that wasn’t a question! What
happens if a student has a radically different view of an argument? - that
doesn’t match up with the expectations of the group? Should they express
this idea? Or should they try to fit in with the rest of the group?
JL
We would like to think that students can express any different argument.
That they are able to put forward a view which is not - which maybe
hasn’t been heard before, by the group - or by some members of the
group, which is challenging to the group. We would hope that that’s
possible - that they are able to express a complete different perspective.
BUT we also have to acknowledge that power relations go on in the
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classroom, and in fact that’s what our induction programme is trying to
look at - the way in which power relations occur in the classroom. And
we can’t - we can’t abolish those power relations. We can only become
aware of them. So I recognise that it’s actually very difficult for a student
to put forward a completely different perspective. And I know that they
also find it difficult - even though we’re trying to enable that, because I’ve
had students come to me and say, you know - “It’s just impossible - not
just in the classroom, but anywhere in the university - to express this kind
of view, because - because it’s so completely subordinated by the
overwhelming - for instance. For instance, one of my students said to me
that the overwhelming view in Britain is individualism. That is the great
good. And it’s simply impossible to really put forward a view which is
more collectively based. And this student was from a society where which operates on a much more collective basis. And she said, “You can
say the words, but nobody will understand what you’re talking about - no
matter how well you try to explain it. It’s not understood. And also it’s
completely - It’s regarded as something that’s simply - not what we
should be striving for. Individualism reigns.”
HN
M’m.
JL
And so these power relations that occur in the classroom, you know, are
very powerful, and it’s actually very difficult. So, although we would
hope and we would try to enable those kinds of subordinate views to be
expressed, because they’re not dominant, it’s actually very very difficult.
And that’s what we’re trying to do when we’re - when we run our
induction programme, is to help people be aware of the kind of power
relations that are taking place. But I’m not trying to pretend that we can that we can resolve those. We can’t.
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HN
A slightly different question. What if a student is in a seminar or a case
study analysis, and doesn’t understand a point that’s been made? Either
doesn’t understand the language, or doesn’t understand the concept.
What would be the best thing for that student to do? Would it be better
for them to keep quiet and pretend that they understood, or would it be
better for them to acknowledge - you know, to let everybody know that
they were inadequate in way?
JL
I think that’s a difficult question. And it partly depends on the student.
Some students don’t mind doing that. They don’t mind expressing expressing the idea that they haven’t understood. Others are afraid of
doing that. And I think partly that depends on the kind of atmosphere you
create in the classroom. So if it’s a - if you create a learning atmosphere,
whereby it’s O.K. to ask questions to express uncertainty - where you’re
not being judged in that way, then I think that helps students to be able to
do that. But they can’t always do it in any case. So - I think it’s
important to try and create an atmosphere where students don’t feel that
this is a competition and they’re having to score points. You know, that
you create an atmosphere of everybody’s here to learn. But I mean, again,
you can’t always do that. It doesn’t always work. And even if you do,
not all students will be able to express that kind of view. So in that case,
you know, I think it very much depends on where they’re at in their
particular learning - of different subjects. And if they feel that it’s too
exposing for them to do that, then it’s better for them to come and talk to
one the staff individually.
HN
But you don’t regard a seminar as a place where you judge students?
JL
No, I don’t. I don’t think that helps them to learn to express their views,
to explore issues, to try out arguments. I don’t think it helps at all.
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HN
So you wouldn’t think badly of a student who admitted that they hadn’t
understood a particular ….?
JL
Absolutely not! I would be very happy if they felt they could say that.
HN
M’m.
TK
That’s great. Is there anything else anyone wants to add?
HN
I think I’ve covered all the questions.
TK
I think you have.
HN
It’s very interesting, actually -
TK
And probably some extra, yeah.
HN
- Yeah. It’s very interesting actually. And that bit about the case studies,
you know ….
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