TRANSCRIPT OF TAPED INTERVIEW
with
PROFESSOR COLIN JONES
Key:
TK
HN
CJ
Tim KELLY
Hilary NESI
Professor Colin Jones
HN
So, I’ll start off by asking, What you think seminars are for?
CJ
What I always tell students is that a seminar is essentially a workshop.
HN
M’m.
CJ
I say if they want to come there and be brilliant, and shine and be
fabulous, that’s absolutely fine. But they won’t, you know, get any
particular extra Brownie points for it, but that’s great. The essential thing
is that they come there, with something, with some ideas, with some
questions, and they work collectively with their fellow students and their
tutor to try and get things straight in their mind. And the idea is that if at
the end of the hour, or the hour and a half they walk out still feeling,
“Well I don’t quite understand what such-and-such means”, or “I still
don’t know what a bourgeoisie is, or a nobility is.” - well, that’s fine, but
it will have been an opportunity missed - that this is the chance for them
to sort of work on their ideas, on their concepts, on their way of thinking
about history, in a way which is totally different from, you know, what
can go on in a lecture or in a tutorial.
HN
So it’s very different from a lecture and a tutorial then?
CJ
Yes. A lecture is essentially, in England at least, somewhere where the
student comes in and takes notes. The lecturer will deliver a fairly formal
talk for normally 45 - 50 minutes. There will be overheads. There will
be, you know, guides and prompts to the students on the board, or on the
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OHP, but basically they will be taking notes and they’ll take them away
and work on them afterwards.
HN
What about a tutorial? Isn’t that like a seminar?
CJ
In our department, the way we use tutorials is that tutorials are
constructed around a written essay. And that basically the student comes
in to see the course tutor, who will give back to him or her a course essay
which has been marked. And that also is a very important sort of place
for learning, if you like. We think that’s a very important site for student
learning, because it gives the student the chance to be told where they’ve
gone wrong. Of course, also where they’ve gone right! - but probably
they’re going to be more interested in where they went wrong and how
they can get better. And so we see that as very personalised. Very
customised. Very much orientated around the written work of the student.
HN
And what kind of preparation? They have to do a preparation for the
tutorial, write an essay - but what about the seminar? Do they have to do prepare for that?
CJ
Yes. There is always preparation, and most of us feel that it is very
important never to have a free rider in a seminar. No one must come there
not having done work in advance. But there’s a tremendous amount of
variety in what people actually expect their students to do. Sometimes a
tutor will say, “Well, we’ll all read chapter 4 - or we’ll all read this and
that article and then we’ll just have a discussion.” - and may appoint
someone as a - as a sort of seminar discussant - to introduce the main
themes and to get the conversation and the debate going.
At other times a tutor will say, “Well, we’ve got a lot of reading to cover,
so I want you three to be responsible for that - those chapters or those
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articles. You couple to look at that book. And then we’ll come together
and we’ll discuss it.”
Another possibility is that there will be a sort of core of reading, which
everyone does, and that one or two students will then be asked to give a
proper presentation. And they’ll present perhaps the work or perhaps
additional work in a five or ten minute short presentation. And that again
can be the basis for the seminar discussion to take off.
HN
M’m.
TK
Could we just interrupt you for a second. - (Sounds as though Tim does
something with the video.) This is very good.
HN
Shall I move the cups?
TK
If I may.
CJ
Yes.
HN
Will that be a continuity problem? (All laugh and talk at once.)
TK
I won’t be cutting the cups for you. You’ll just be using bricks.
CJ
Yes.
HN
Sharp-eyed viewers might …! Oh well never mind!
TK
There’s just one more thing - I just want to ????
(All mutter inaudibly!)
HN
Are there actually doctors in there?
TK
Yeah. (Laughs) No, no, we’ve not got enough!…… So, sorry to interrupt
you. Carry on whenever you want.
HN
So, you - you ready to go?
CJ
Yeah, yeah.
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HN
You said you don’t tolerate free riders, but what happens if there is
somebody who doesn’t do any work? I mean does that affect their overall
- the outcome of their degree, for instance?
CJ
It doesn’t affect the overall outcome of their degree, because in this
department - although we have looked at the possibility of assessing
seminar performance - we found it too difficult to do in a way which is
fair to students.
HN
M’m.
CJ
So we don’t actually access the student performance. On the other hand, I
think, it’s what I said at the beginning really, that this is an opportunity
for students to get things right in their minds. If they - if they are
doggedly refusing to do that, in a way there’s not much one can do about
it. But on the other hand, one hopes that they will want to contribute, and
also that the seminar leader, who after all is a teacher in the university and
would be pretty experienced at this sort of thing, will have techniques for
bringing students out and bringing students into the discussion.
HN
M’m. And what happens if you have students who have language
problems? What about international students?
CJ
International students? - that’s a very good point. And I think this is a
problem which applies not just to international students, but also to very,
very shy students. If students are finding it difficult to keep up, or to
contribute to the discussion, then I think it’s important for the seminar
tutor to pick that up and to work with the student at ways of getting round
that. And I think there are a number of techniques. One of the ones
which I always use, for example, is, I say, “Well, next week we’re doing
such-and-such a subject. I want you to do your reading, but come, not just
ready to talk, but with a list of points which you can actually make in the
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discussion. And I will look to you to make those particular points.” And
this is a way of, I think, getting the person involved. What’s terribly
important with a seminar discussion - I always tell this to our first year
students - is speak early. Speak - speak as soon as you can, because it’s
the most difficult thing in a seminar is to break the ice, and if you’re
leaving that for half an hour, then you’re going to be in trouble. That’s
why I, as a seminar tutor, always try and make sure that everyone says
something within the first five minutes - even if it’s what the weather’s
like, or what they were watching on TV, or something. So it’s terribly
important for the - particularly so in the case of, as I say, for very shy
students, or students who feel very unconfident about speaking in public but also especially for overseas students - that these sort of techniques are
sort of picked up on and that they contribute early and contribute in a
formal way, because I think once they do that then it becomes easier for
them to go on and make further contributions.
HN
Does discussion get heated? Do you find that confident - some of the
confident members of the seminar group - are arguing amongst
themselves and the less confident ones can’t contribute because of that?
CJ
Yeah, this is always a - let me say that again. The question of balancing
inputs from students is a very delicate one. One doesn’t want to stop
people talking. On the other hand, there are times when it’s important for
a seminar tutor to intervene and just to tone done, or to sort of keep
restrained, the contributions of one particularly voluble or enthusiastic
student, so that it doesn’t shade out the contribution of others who are
perhaps shyer or who find it more difficult to express themselves in a
public venue. So I think that’s something we always have to look out look out for. On the other hand, one doesn’t want to restrain enthusiasm
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and keenness. And yes, sometimes seminars can get quite enthused and
voluble. Many seminar tutors, for example, have the technique of asking
people to take up a position on a particular historical problem. I teach the
French Revolution, for example. And one of the things which I always do
is, I say, “Well, we have the trial of the King - King Louis XVIth and he’s
going to get executed at the end of this. I want you to be his
supporters.”… “or you to be his defenders.” And this obviously gets
people very heated and very involved. And it sort of gets the discussion
going in a particularly sort of lively and animated way.
HN
M’m. Sounds interesting. (Laughs.) I think that’s about it, isn’t it?
Have we got anything - is there anything else we need to - I think it’s
covered, just about everything - except what kind -
TK
Um - yeah.
HN
- learning outcomes? I suppose that’s really, more-or-less been …..?
TK
Yeah, I think so too.
CJ
Learning outcomes - ask me about that, because I think that’s I do have a
couple of ideas on that.
TK
O.K. Yeah.
HN
Right.
TK
One thing I felt, that some of the - some of the discussion was kind of
addressed towards, you know, what tutors should do, whereas, really we
trying to get at is really -
HN
Yeah.
TK
- advice for students.
HN
Yeah, yes, that’s getting interesting then, because, this is like, I was
thinking in the back of mind, I was thinking ????? (fast and all speaking
at once, overlaid by laughter).
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CJ
Could we do that? Yeah, I take your point. Do it from the point of view
of the student.
HN
Yeah.
TK
I’ll just come in slightly.
CJ
Yeah.
TK
O.K.
HN
So, we need to be thinking in terms of how - what students can do in order
to contribute, if - what kind of -
CJ
Yeah. I mean, I’m trying to provide advice ultimately for students, so if
we try to think from their perspective, what kind of advice would be
useful for them.
TK
Yeah, they should go and talk to the tutor, and find out the things that they
can suggest. Yeah, O.K. I can do it - I can re-do that on that.
HN
M’m.
CJ
O.K.
HN
What was the actual question? Was it to do with -
TK
Students who are more quiet and ….
HN
Yes.
TK
Or international ones, who find it difficult to contribute.
HN
Yes. Do you find that sometimes students whose language - first
language isn’t English - have more difficulty contributing to a seminar?
CJ
That is sometimes - though not always the case. If that is the case, though
- and this, of course, is something which happens not just with
international students, but also with home students who are perhaps very
shy, or very unconfident about speaking in public, it can be a trial for
them to actually contribute in a seminar situation. I mean, one of the
things I always tell students is, if that is the case, make sure you say
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something early - because breaking the ice is always the more - the most
difficult thing. And to say something quickly within a seminar - even if
it’s only “Good morning” and what the weather’s like outside, or what
you saw on the TV last night, can be tremendously important in boosting
your confidence and making it that much easier for you to contribute later
in the seminar, or on an issue of substance.
I think the other thing which I would say - if this is really getting a
problem for a student - if they’re finding it immensely difficult to
contribute in any way, I think they should go and talk to the seminar tutor
about this, and discuss ways of getting round this. One of the obvious
ways of doing it - one of the ways which I as a seminar tutor do as well,
is, I say to the students, “Well, why don’t you come to the tutorial with a
list of points that you want to make, written down, 5 or 6 points, and we’ll
make sure that you say it, say those points, early in the session, so that
you have the confidence, that you’ve made points, that you’ve made a
contribution to the discussion, and then might find it easier to contribute
thereafter.
There are a number of techniques, I think, which students can use. And I
would advise them to talk to seminar tutors about the best way of
overcoming this problem of lack of ability to contribute towards seminar
discussions.
HN
From the student’s point of view, what do you think students get out of
the experience of attending seminars?
CJ
I think if it works well, a seminar is something which makes history come
alive for students.
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HN
M’m.
CJ
They’ve contributed. They’ve brought something in. They’ve tried it out,
if you like, in the seminar discussion with their peers and with their
seminar tutor, and that will fix things in their minds, in a way which is
totally different, I think, and much more real and much more internalised
very often, than some of the sort of skip-reading which is necessary,
obviously for writing for essays and all the rest of it. So it is real, quality
learning, I think, for a student. And that’s what I always say to students “Make sure you go in well prepared and that you are willing to put in as
much as you can, in terms of effort and enthusiasm, because it repays the
effort.”
HN
Thank you.
CJ
Can I carry on there?
HN
M’m.
CJ
At the end of the day, I think it’s very important that students take out
with them a sense that they have fixed some things in their mind; they’ve
got things straight, if you like, in their minds, and that - I’ve forgotten
what else I was going to say now! - I had a terribly important point!!
(All laugh - reassuring it happens to us all!)
Oh, yeah, I know! It’s very important that students take out a sense of,
you know, having learnt, having engaged with historical problems, and all
the rest of it - but I think also, what is a very important point, what I
always recommend to my students to do, is that when they go out of a
seminar, is to write down, just to take half an hour’s time to write down
the key points which they felt came out of the seminar. Because it’s very
easy - even if you are very enthused about a subject coming out of a
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seminar, it’s very easy to forget. And the sooner after the seminar that
you jot down the key notes, the key points - perhaps the things that you
need now to look up, rather than what you’ve just learnt - it’s very
important to do that because I think the learning experience for students
will then be much, much better.
HN
And those key points - perhaps they could use - they could refer to them
when writing an essay, or -
CJ
Absolutely! - when writing an essay, when sort of sorting out their ideas
on any particular issue - when they are preparing for exams, or preparing
for course tests, or whatever. Yes.
HN
Thank you. That’s quite useful actually, isn’t it? That last point was
useful in terms of thinking of materials for the seminars.
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