TRANSCRIPT OF TAPED INTERVIEW with DR STANLEY IRELAND Key: TK HN SI Tim KELLY Hilary NESI Dr Stanley Ireland HN I’d like to begin by asking you, “What do you think a seminar is for?” SI Well, in many ways a seminar doesn’t have a single purpose. I think that’s one of the first things you’ve got to realise. Rather like lectures don’t have a single purpose. A seminar, essentially, is a means of filling in, in the small group environment, very often aspects that have occurred in the more formal environment of the lecture, which the lecturer wants the students to elaborate on, or to explore more deeply, or by co-operation with other students in the group, to reach some kind of consensus about. At the same time, it’s a very good opportunity for students to develop their abilities of inter-relationship on an intellectual level; and to explore elements, problems, questions, things that require clarification, which have either cropped up elsewhere or which are specifically set for the particular seminar topic, or the particular seminar event. So that, for instance, if something crops up in a lecture that students don’t quite understand, and need to spend more time on, you’re able to set that as an assignment, within a small group environment. And get everybody to do some work on it, and learn to compare their reactions and their conclusions arising out of that work. 1 On the other hand, it might be that the seminar can be taken as an adjunct to a different teaching situation, in which material that hasn’t actually been explored, as such, within the lecture environment, can be used in order to flesh out a lecture, by using - by going off at tangents if necessary, but allowing the students to do a little bit of work on their own, so that they can begin to realise that they have a real contribution to make to the learning process. And it isn’t just a one-way process. A lot of students when they come to University from the school environment think that the situation is going to be very much the same. Well, they are there, principally, to absorb information. And one of the things about university life is that we try to train students to think independently. Or to believe and to know that they are capable of independent conclusions on items. And, of course, it’s a very important aspect of the learning process at university, and this I think comes through very well in the seminar format. That they begin to realise that there are some topics which can be explored, but for which a conclusion doesn’t actually exist. That there is no final answer. The realisation of this is, I think, one of the major conclusions that students can take on board at university. But there are some problems, which don’t admit of a final answer. But the value of the learning process is in the exploration of that particular topic. I think we’d better…… TK Yeah. (squeaking sound as door opens.) SI I’m just being video-d. Man Can I just have the master copy for Hellenistic World? SI Oh yes, right. 2 Man We’re out of SI You’re out of all copies, are we? - in all departments? HN Yes, yes. TK Yes. This is what we are trying to find out. SI So you need a lecturer. A lecture’s lecture, and it might vary slightly in some of its peculiarities. HN M’m. SI - especially the peculiarities of the lecturer. But, you know, a seminar is such an individual thing, because you - it’s a dialogue. TK Yeah, we won’t ….. Yeah, sorry. HN Yeah. TK Do you want to start again? HN Yes! (Laughter) Because it sounds as though we’ve put that in as well. TK Oh, right. So I’ll just ignore me and carry on with ???? SI Right. HN A seminar’s a kind of dialogue? SI Yes. A seminar is a kind of dialogue between the students themselves. The best seminars are those in which the - the academic has the least part to part to play. Where he exists simply to stop it going off totally at a tangent into irrelevancies, and where he might try to draw in the more reticent members of the group. But where essentially it’s the students talking to one another, and exploring the problem from their often vastly different perspectives. What it does need though, and what I think students need to take on board very much, is that the seminar requires great input from themselves, both in terms of preparation and in terms of actual participation during the seminar itself. Otherwise it turns itself into a student-led lecture, because if one sets a student a task of reading up in 3 detail on the topic and perhaps producing a paper for presentation at a seminar, and then nobody else has done any work on it, then there’s really nothing of value that other students can put in - apart from a little bit of anodyne criticism of the paper itself. But if they have ALL done a good amount of reading, preferably from different sources and from different perspectives, then they all have a different viewpoint to put over, and so can, as it were, enmesh their different experiences of this topic, in a whole entitive - single entity, and to perhaps realise whether there is in fact a way through, and whether there is perhaps a point at which you can go no further. HN So what is the typical format of the seminar, then? SI A typical format? Well, I don’t think you can talk about a typical format, because individual departments will have different needs. Different topics will have different needs. HN M’m. SI And different academics will have different purposes for a seminar. I mean some will prefer to lead the seminar themselves, so you get a kind of question and answer format, in which the academic is leading the discussion, but throwing out questions for students to explore. In another guise, as we have already said, a student may be the leader of the seminar, presenting a paper, or presenting ideas which the others can then interact with. This, I think, is the more effective because students are less intimidated by their own fellows than they are by any academic. And so they will be more willing, I think, to interact on that kind of basis. And in that case the academic tries to fade himself off as out of the 4 picture, and let the students carry on - so long as they are carrying on in a way that is actually productive. HN And if there are students - let’s say international students - who are not very confident about talking in a group, is there any particular problem that you have noticed there? And any particular advice that you could give to international students, whose first language isn’t English? SI Well, in many areas it’s a cultural factor. Some international students come from an environment in which the basic - it seems as though the basic purpose of a student is the absorption of material. And in which the academic is regarded as somebody who knows everything and that you never question what an academic says. With that kind of student you have to try and lead them to the realisation that they are capable of real input into this situation - that it isn’t a one-way traffic for information. That they can give as well as receive. To realise too that academics within the British university system are not omniscient and omnipotent creatures, whose word must be accepted without question. That questioned of received wisdom is in many ways what a university is all about. So you’re trying to lead such students, because they’re bound to be reticent - reticent to begin with - into the realisation that they have something to contribute, and not to be shy to do so. That they are there, not as simple audience, but actually as participants. HN Is student participation assessed in any way at all? - either formally or informally in your department? SI Within my own department it isn’t assessed formally because in order to assess something formally you would need two academics present because of the dual system that we have. And that I think would be very off-putting, especially if students also thought that they were being 5 assessed. That would put them under more pressure, and some would simply dry up altogether, while others would take over. But it’s difficult not to assess student performance in that kind of environment on an informal or unofficial level, because one is getting a sense of how a student’s mind works, and at what level it works. TK May I just interrupt for a moment? I think this is, you know, very interesting, but could it be phrased in a way that - that would be almost advice to the student, because we’re coming to things, I think, are very important here. HN Oh yes, I think it’s very useful. TK So …. SI Well, I was going to come on to say that the impression that you get - TK I was thinking that - SI - is something that feeds through into more - into a more formal - HN M’mm! SI - into when one is looking at a more formal kind of assessment. TK O.K. SI It’s building up a total picture. TK Right. SI And this, of course, also comes through when writing references. HN We can deal with this, and then we’re going to have, “Have you got any specific advice for people?” I was going to ask, “What happens after a seminar?” TK Advice for a student in that situation, you know - although you’re not formally assessed actually, it’s a chance to make an impression on - SI Yes. HN H’mm. 6 TK Anyway, I’ll stop interrupting, and let you carry on. SI Why don’t we look at some? HN Yeah. I think we’ll actually go back to saying that although it can’t be it can’t be formally assessed - TK Shall we go back to that then? SI Yeah. HN Perhaps - shall I start with a question - the question about assessments? TK Yeah. And also, I don’t know if you could phrase it slightly differently, or not? - show that it’s …. HN Are students assessed formally or informally for their performance in seminars? SI Well, you can - whatever I say you can edit. TK Yeah, sure. Of course. Yeah. HN M’m. SI So, we get the picture in the end. HN M’m. TK O.K. SI Formally within our own department students are not assessed on their seminar work, because the method of assessment here at Warwick would require the presence of two tutors - two academics - which would undoubtedly intimidate students, causing some to become more and more reticent, where others would seek to impress, above and beyond what was absolutely necessary. But it is inevitable, wherever one is interacting with students that you are building up on an unofficial and informal level, a total picture of that student, both as a personality and as an intellectual being. And this cannot but feed through into the more formal aspects of assessment later on. A student who shines intellectually in a seminar is, I 7 would think, almost automatically a student that will shine in other aspects of putting ideas across on paper, or in any way that is formally assessed. And of course, equally important, one is building up a picture of this or that student in a way which will go beyond the confines of the strictly academic world. For instance, ultimately, tutors are asked very often to provide references for job applications. And this is where the impression of the student that you get from a seminar - as well as from many, many other environments, builds up that picture which enables you to put over to potential employers an accurate and indepth picture of what the student is really like. HN How does a good student shine in a seminar? What does a good student do in a seminar? SI Well a good student will first of all seek to become a seminar leader. In other words, a student will volunteer - to present a paper at a seminar. In another environment where that same student is not presenting the paper, but just forming part of the outer group, he or she will inevitably interact more positively, by responding to facts, to discussion - but in a way that doesn’t seek to monopolise the occasion, but which puts in factors that are positive and relevant, and intelligent to the topic that is being discussed. I think these are the things that you’re really looking for. And also, of course, a fluency of seminar participation. The ability to construct an argument which flows logically, one point from another, and isn’t simply a series of jumbled points that - We’re looking for the logicality of an argument, as well as its intelligent or intellectual input. HN What advice would you give to a student who was very shy or wasn’t sure of their English? - in seminars? 8 SI The best thing for such a student to do is go and talk either to the personal tutor, or to the module tutor, to explain the situation, so that the module tutor can actually facilitate that student’s development within a seminar situation. Now it may well be that if you have a group of students who are in that situation, that you could in fact run a kind of mock seminar, in which you lead them by suggestions, by encouragement, into coming out of themselves and becoming less shy and more willing to participate. HN So practice? SI Practice. You could also ensure that they are put into an environment where you have a number of other kinds of students, who are more forthcoming. And are told that they are there basically is to observe. To see how other people do it. So that they can see for themselves, the level of input that they can aim at. And to assure them that if their standard of English is NOT brilliant, that this doesn’t matter. So long as the idea is put across. And that it might be worthwhile if they want to participate in a pre-arranged seminar, that they might care to put points down on paper. HN M’m. SI So that they aren’t being asked to think about their English at the same time as they’re trying to think about the points themselves, where they have something ready prepared, on a piece of paper, that they can inject at the right moment. HN M’m. SI And I think also one needs to appraise the English speakers in any such group, that the person whose mother-tongue isn’t English needs to be incorporated. So there needs to be an element of co-operation within the whole group, and a sense of empathy and sympathy. 9 HN What does a good student do after a seminar? Is there anything that leads on from the seminar that use could be made of the seminar after? SI Right. Well, I think the seminar leader can get feedback from the module tutor - the academic tutor, the academic who has been sitting in on it. Because that kind of feedback from a professional is very useful. If we say that the points that were presented in a logical way, but might have been presented slightly better - or that the student presenter might have been less - less guarded, less defensive, in that person’s own reaction to what his fellow students were actually saying. It’s very easy when you’re young and you’re inexperienced in presenting a paper at a seminar to regard this as your personal property and to be very guarded and very defensive about your own information - and to be a little bit more relaxed if necessary. So one can give such a student feedback. I think it’s also important before a seminar actually ends for the academic to finish it slightly early and to sum up all - or to ask the students to sum up what they themselves have got out of it. Or for the academic to have input into that, so that the students know basically - the standard. Now this isn’t a formal standard that’s being reached, but it is good to have some feedback from the academic, who might say, you know, “This has been a good seminar. You’ve all participated and you’ve all been fluent. You’ve brought out some good intelligent and informative answers that have been presented logically.” - Or, at the other extreme, to say that you’ve been essentially going off at tangents which have wandered into irrelevancies, and that you haven’t really thought through some of the things that you have said - perhaps because you haven’t done sufficient reading initially. 10 So I think feedback on a group level, and also for the individual student seminar leader, is essential. Because it’s only in that way that of course students can learn, go away, think about it and improve. It’s rather like the feedback that you give to an essay. It’s basically designed to improve the next one. Without it, the student is really at sea and doesn’t know how well he or she has actually done. HN What is the relationship between lectures, seminars, tutorials, essays? Do they inter-relate? SI They’re all part of a kind of intellectual dialogue. I mean all teaching is a dialogue between students. Lectures essentially a very economic way of putting across a lot of information to a large audience - though I think within my own department, no lecture is ever so large that if a student has a point that requires clarification or needs some additional information, that the lecture can’t be interrupted and that point dealt with - because it’s absolutely essential that relevant information be given - when it is relevant - at the moment, at the point of enquiry, rather than leaving it till later. Or not asking the question at all, in which case ignorance can be allowed to fester, and grow larger and larger. The tutorial, in my own context, is essentially a language thing. It’s the way we impart information about the ancient languages, and it’s perhaps the form of teaching which is closest to what students experience at school. So it’s a dialogue between a tutor and class on an ancient language. 11 As I’ve already said, a seminar is a way of filling in gaps, that have either arisen in the lecture - or a way of broadening an aspect that’s either connected with the lecture or can arise quite spontaneously where a student sees either a problem or an avenue of exploration, which doesn’t fit in to any other context, but which is worthwhile exploring, and you can have a seminar actually based on that. HN M’m. Actually, I’ve asked something about tutorials because I - I didn’t think that - I was surprised when you said that tutorials were closest to the experience that students experience at school? SI Well, it’s how we - how we define tutorials - HN Yes! SI - within our own department. HN Yes! SI I think you’ll find that different departments define all these things in a great variety of ways. There is no single standard for a lecture, or for a class, or for a seminar. In many ways they can blend together and their edges become very fuzzy and overlap. So one hasn’t to think of things in terms of mono-block units. This is a lecture. HN Yes. SI And this is how you behave in a lecture. And this is the form that a lecture will always take. Because in certain circumstances, it can change. As soon as somebody spots something which is unclear and asks a question, the seminar - the lecture is essentially becoming a seminar format. HN And a tutorial is a kind of class then? SI And a tutorial, for us, is a kind of class. We use tutorial as - just as a term to the way that people would use the word class. It is something 12 where we are putting across training in language, or we’re going through a text. We’re going through an ancient text. And we’ve got a dialogue between the tutor and the students, who are either translating, or are doing a language exercise. So you’re constantly asking questions and getting answers from students. HN Right. SI But it is a - essentially a tutor-based form of exercise. Whereas I would see a seminar as being more oriented towards the students exploring things for themselves. HN So the tutor takes a back seat, as it were, in a seminar? SI Within a seminar, yes. HN But is much more prominent in a tutorial? SI In a tutorial, yes. HN M’m. I think that’s it. That’s actually very interesting. That’s really, really interesting. Is there - TK Is there anything else that anybody wants to say? SI No, I don’t think - if there is one can always come back to me. 13